Logs can be found here:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communication_Projects_Group/Meetings
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Hello all,
There is a meeting tonight at 2030UTC (about one hour forty five
minutes away). I have a proposition to throw out before I formally
propose it on the mailing list so I would appreciate it if as many as
possible could be there.
Thanks,
Sean
On 12/19/07, symode09(a)hotmail.com <symode09(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
> I haven't been to a meeting in so long because of exams and other
> commitments (I never thought nagging was so effective :p ) what's the status
> of the comproj/when's the next meeting
>
>
> thanx
>
>
> Deni
> symode09
> brown_cat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ComProj mailing list
> ComProj(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/comproj
>
I'm going to be adding Wikizine participation back to the agenda, as
well as ask that we follow up with our Japanese-Wikimedia discussion
from before.
--
Cary Bass
Volunteer Coordinator
Your continued donations keep Wikipedia running! Support the Wikimedia Foundation today: http://donate.wikimedia.org
Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.
Phone: 727.231.0101
Fax: 727.258.0207
E-Mail: cbass(a)wikimedia.org
Hi!
Lately I found the log on meta and would like to give some feedback :)
* Ja translators
[3:35pm] cary-office: So we can understand the concerns of the communities
[3:35pm] Markie996: slap transcom and their channel?
[3:35pm] cary-office: noooo
Oh why? <g>
While they are now inactive, Japanese translators form a team.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_teams/ja
Sadly the ja translation coordinator is now inactive, I miss him
greatly. (He is also my co-b'crat on jawikinews since its launching).
However you may keep in touch with other people including Takot
(Takashi) or other members. And if someone revives the team, I'll be
more than happy (however it may be mainly Transcom concern and me as
native speaker, not any other people).
* Schedule
[3:55pm] htchie1: let me check if Alex is online
[3:57pm] htchie1: it seems he is sleeping now, since it's 5am in Taipei
I think Historybuff may rememer this issue: the current schedule of
ComProj meeting is not good for East Asia residents. To get us East
Asian residents involved, some new arrangement will be necessary imo.
(Note: Htchien is now in US).
* Essjay
It was also focused on Japanese media and blog. And of course,
criticized. Japanese IT media is interested in English Wikipedia: some
of them apparently more in it than Japanese sister. (It is no surprise
- same happened elsewhere). As a comcom member I've sent press
releases to some media people but I haven't seen them use those PR
materials directly, if I recall correctly. Rather they love to get AP,
Reuters or BBC coverage and then translate those worldwide famous
press coverage.
It is not only Wikipedia issue but in general Japanese media and
academics have criticized themselves "we import everything cultural
but seldom expert". I don't mean you began the Sysypos deeds - but
just would like you to aware most of Japanese are just uninterested to
give their opinions and now you challenge this ethnic tendency.
Silence is considered t/here gold and eloquence scrap rather than
silver. So have patience :) You began a valuable task.
* Alexsh
[4:07pm] htchie1: I think maybe Alex is not proper to be the project
leader for WMJP case, because the ja community does not trust someone
who is not a Japanese easily
I agree basically the latter part, but Alex seems to have a good
competence in reading (not writing but he has been steadily improving
his Japanese skill), and some of jawiki community have showed him
trust (cf. jawiki:Request for block/Kagemusha. Some said "even without
evidence, I am okay with that - I trust Alexsh who have devoted to
coordinate jawiki and zhwiki.). While I don't think he can be the key
figure in a long term, if you are looking for someone who is
noticeable a part of both global community and part of ja to some
extent, I think he may be a good choice - if he nods.
--
KIZU Naoko
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD
Sean,
I’m just watching the need for this become more obvious in a bunch of silos
– mainly unis.
If you want to look at one attempt to do a global open content thing (for
courses) it’s here. HYPERLINK
"http://www.ocwconsortium.org/ocwcforum/"http://www.ocwconsortium.org/ocwcfo
rum/ You can view their forums, which don’t really work as they aren’t
(reasonably) intuitive in getting orientated like sitepoint.com’s (where old
threads are drawn to the top of page through new usage).
It’s the same for WMF projects. I collect mail for comproj, UK, and meta
lists in one folder to view the conversations on a time basis. One really
couldn’t say there’s much cross pollination across mail lists, except when
someone like Michael makes a point of working through each of them, and
replying to it’s vertical progress, often in a place where the linkage is
apparent. (thanks Mike, that’s (from what I’m reading into it is) terrific.
Wish I could read de, but I get the jist). IRC isn’t used a great deal as
timing across time zones is a challenge for all of us (do I need to tell
yu), while the idea of using virtual rooms, and leaving them “open” at times
is still a bit new (not only for me, but my geriatric peers).
I’ll also point to a conversation at wikieducator about this same subject.
HYPERLINK
"http://wikieducator.org/Talk:Community_building_project"http://wikieducator
.org/Talk:Community_building_project
The common problem is not so much a lack of info (for volunteers or any
others). It’s just that it’s impossible to get orientated, find (or direct)
people from various remote groups doing similar things to a place, AT AROUND
the same time, and work through how to collaborate. E.g I see your attempts
at getting a 2009 UK Wikimania together, as a one off conference, and wonder
how many OCWC uni people are sitting in their silos, trying to figure out
how Wikipedia’s global framework might link (reference) to their
institutional courses, and how Wikimania might link to/complement their
annual conferences. BTW. I’ve been beating bushes, HYPERLINK
"http://labspace.open.ac.uk/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=231#p641"http://labspace
.open.ac.uk/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=231#p641
Wikipedia (and others) work because there’s not a huge amount to learn in
using the tool. One can learn by watching and thinking things through. You
can get orienated, by language, from the bottom up, through reading one
article of interest and just having a go. It needs to be the same with comms
tools. Any comms tool. If it’s a meta level then we’re talking about the
communications of various (specialist and project) groups. So unless this
one is going to try and direct (say) 200 new user :Users/min in 100
languages then I’d suggest we have to make the groups’ conversations a bit
more obvious than this. HYPERLINK
"http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo"http://lists.wikimedia.org/mail
man/listinfo Approachable is the word.
If just one email goes missing, as your last did to me, not only am I
disoriented but anyone else who (later) can work their way through the
horizontally challenged elists will get exhausted trying to get an idea on
what might be going on in the wider wiki world, & how the timing of one
project (or conference) is supposed to be relevant to (complement) another.
So No. No more guides. A forum is just something which picks a bunch of
email lists and makes obvious what’s going on across them. Aggregating them
means one sign On is sufficient. One user account is a way for a person to
keep their threads together across projects and (should something like
liquid threads be used), a conversation can find its “logical place” by
being moved. There is also some OS tool work going on in Labspace which will
enable a user, seeing someone else reading the same thread, with their green
messenger (MSG) light on, to click, chat or conference with peers.
Enough. It’s the night before Christmas. If you view that Labspace Wikipedia
thread and see the icon I used, it’s a (The Far Side) Larsen. Father
Christmas has stepped on a mouse while delivering presents. Now you know why
nothing stirred, “not even a mouse”. I don’t want to be guilty of the same
thing. Have a good one. simon
Simon,
Thank you for your thoughts. I agree that participation in Wikimedia
still has a reasonably steep learning curve, and this is not a good
thing. However, we already have a large contributor base centered
around the means of communication we already use, that is mailing
lists and IRC channels, and thus I think that if we were to introduce
a board as you suggest it would split things and it would not end up
being used.
What would you say to better volunteer information? This is something
Sandy has been working on. A guide for Wikimeda volunteers in general,
regardless of project, is something that I think ComProj could work
on.
Sean
Perhaps some stimulations for you, what could be done... My interest is
promoting the (German) Wikiversity... Some of the materials and ideas could
be taken over by other projects, I hope.
HYPERLINK
"http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Communication_Projects_Group/Membership
"http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Communication_Projects_Group/Membership
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12:00 PM
Hello all,
In the past forty-eight hours I have had a debating competition thrust
upon me! Thus I will not be able to attend the meeting tonight as I am
going to be putting a lot of effort into preparing for this
competition. I hope this is not too much of a problem as we don't have
any pressing project issues.
Thanks,
Sean
Platonides HYPERLINK
"mailto:comproj%40lists.wikimedia.org?Subject=%5BComProj%5D%20Mixing%20Direc
tories%20and%20Comms%20Tools&In-Reply-To=6g89nt%242dtngn%40smtp05.syd.iprimu
s.net.au"platonides at gmail.com
Wed Dec 5 19:17:17 UTC 2007
There mail readers allowing conversation threading (which has the little
problem that you need to have received the emails).
There's also gmane, providing a news interface for email lists. Your
news client *will* support threading. And as the mails are stored on the
servers, you can access to threads no matter how old.
Alas, this list is not in gmane (other wiki*edia lists are) but it could
be added. Consider if that fills your expectative.
Thanks. It’s like everything these days. So much choice. I hate emails die
to the spam it creates, and am used to threads that aren’t cut into months
or into separate lists. I guess people get used to anything. I’ve just seen
forum work to include newbies and help them get orientated, esp good for a
place like Wikipedia where lots goes on (across threads).
> The other stuff, the real time stuff, like IRC has come an aweful long way
> since IRC. I'll point you at the big daddy - the accessgrid
> HYPERLINK "http://www.accessgrid.org/"http://www.accessgrid.org/ - which
could be used for (as I've suggested)
> tying together the Alexandrian Wikimania site with the runners up in
> different countries.
At least it's easy to find out how to entern on an irc channel (you know
there're web gateways you could use, do you?). Arriving to that page i
don't see what i'm supposed to find nor how to get to it.
No, didn’t know there was a Web gateway to the IRC. Did I miss something
here?
HYPERLINK
"http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/ComProj"http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/ComPr
oj
The accessgrid is primarily for larger groups. I suggested it as it’s at the
fat end of the IRC skinny. Operator intensive, but I’m trying to get some
unis to buy into tying some sites together for Wikimania.
Maybe this would be more relevant. HYPERLINK
"http://forums.mebeam.com/view_topic.php?id=2&forum_id=2"http://forums.mebea
m.com/view_topic.php?id=2&forum_id=2
I’m sure they’d be happy to partner with Wikipedians.
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8:41 AM
Dear Cary, Sean,
This is a continuation of our correspondence, which started in reply to
Sean's hard work in reorg the the Comms Proj page, and continued in Cary's
reply on 23/11/2007 titled ComProj Digest, Vol 9, Issue 12. I'm giving this
background as no one who might be reading this thread would understand this.
Which makes my point. Email might be OK for 1 to 1 communication. It's lousy
for anyone trying to get orientated.
The reason forums have proved so popular over the past few years is not
(just) that it enables people to communicate. The rule of thumb is for every
conversation there are 10 reading and 100 who use a thread for reference to
other conversations.
So if Sandy invites people to participate in a blogging initiative and then,
as Cary suggests, forgets, an enthusiastic volunteer isn't left feeling they
have been ignored. And if the logs for meetings aren't put up, they aren't
left feeling that things have come to a full stop. Fourums work because
conversations aren't split into monthly 'directories' and separated lists
which together discuss things which give people an overview of what's going
on, and discussions which overlap, without requiring editors who must answer
FAQ's continually, and readers attempting to understand the recategorization
merry-go-round.
As Sean (I think) said, "The problem is, we are not sure as to what we will
continue to do or if anything will be changed. We seem to be adjusting the
group". This is a continuous (Comms Proj) process, in which the Foundation
would obviously like to see more people involved, but if they are like me,
they will see no place in which to start.
I'm staggered by how much you guys, especially cary, have done with so few
people, so please don't take any of this as personal criticism. But as you
say Cary, most groups will want their own space, where outsiders must get
orientated and learn the lingo before contributing. But if this group can't
help them get an overview of the orgs structure then it's pretty obvious why
it's not going anywhere.
I have pointed to just one domain's forums, which I have done before, and
which you might be aware of, if there was a thread which contained
discussion, going back years, about comms tools. It's this one
http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/
There's nothing clever about it, It's just seems to be the right tool for
the right job. Where a wiki is excellent for building a library of articles
and giving them a context (like Wikipedia), this kind of tool is excellent
for giving groups a chance to talk through an article's meaning, what it's
to be used for, link to & from reflated articles, and leave the memory of a
discussion behind. It also enables people to see who's reading a thread, tap
them on the shoulder and have a discussion about something at the time it
holds their interest (perhaps using VoIP services like Skype).
The other stuff, the real time stuff, like IRC has come an aweful long way
since IRC. I'll point you at the big daddy - the accessgrid
http://www.accessgrid.org/ - which could be used for (as I've suggested)
tying together the Alexandrian Wikimania site with the runners up in
different countries. There are many other (smaller) versions of these
virtual rooms scattered around, but will require sponsorship. I'll talk to
Sue about that. (I was hoping it would be on this thread).
Enough. Xmas is coming, and you don't need an old fart telling you how
things could be improved. It needs money to do all these things. I'm putting
something together for Sue which works through how NREN's could be
encouraged to host the Foundation's projects. I just wanted to stick this
post in the sand as I do, so you could edit it mercilessly.
All the best,
simonfj
ref; http://web.nmc.org/communication/section/questions/#0
> Sean,
> This is why I'm entirely disorientated,
>
> Off the front page http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
> I click on Comms Projects Group http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/ComProj
>
> Where I click on Projects.
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Communication_Projects_Group/Projects
> And get nothing.
I think the list of projects was blanked because we are unsure as to
which projects are active or not.
> I'm sure you want newbies to go here.
>
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Communication_Projects_Group_-_Proje
cts
Actually, I don't think we want them to go there, that's the old
system that currently just lists all projects we've ever handled.
That category system may change at a later date.
> And the same can be said for the other links. No?
As far as I know, all of the other links in the Navbar are up-to-date as
well.
------------------------------
On 11/22/07, simonpedia <simon(a)cols.com.au> wrote:
> Dear Sean,
>
> My thanks for your guidance and patience, and my apologees for taking so
> long. So far as email allowing 'really clear comms'. If it were 121 yeah
OK.
> But we are trying to help idiots like me get ORIENTATED and after doing
so,
> be a little useful. After going through the many singular (open) elists,
> I've gotta say no, it's as clear as mud.
The problem is, we are not sure as to what we will continue to do or
if anything will be changed. We seem to be adjusting the group.
> I look at Cormac (as one example) helping to orientate people on the uni
> list
>
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikiversity-l/2007-November/000247.html
> And then ask some real pertinent questions
>
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikiversity-l/2007-November/000248.html
>
> And then I look though (just) this list where I see Sandy Ordenez ask for
> some help with a blogging project, send a "yes, I'd love to help", and
> receive an email to a group, including yourself that talks about another
> 'internal group'. (" Another Wikipedian - Simon has agreed to help out
with
> the edit wikipedia/blogging project. Schiste, when you can give me an
> update, so I can email to internal/comcom etc.)
That was just a message to Schiste about a few private groups. In an
organization as large as ours, you must know that there are some
items/groups that won't be open to all.
> And then nothing.
About your edit wikipedia/blogging project? If so, you should contact
Sandy about that, she probably just forgot.
> No doubt
> there are a thousand emails going on, which might make it clear what's
> happening. And the IRC meeting take place, without the records being
> (easily) found, and if they are, are so arcane, a newbie would have a hard
> time making some sense of them.
...the records are found in the navbar at the top of our ComProj
pages, click "Meetings". I do admit that there hasn't been logs from
the last few meetings posted (and don't have an explanation for that),
but all the other logs are posted in the normal format for IRC chat
logs.
> Through all of this, I see the Foundation looking to employ more staff in
> San Fran to do with outreach & partnership development. Meanwhile
christophe
> doesn't understand how my mail might even pertain to this list.
Your e-mail might have been hard to figure out.
> OK, 'grumpy old man' is a good description. But I see you (and so many
> tothers) working your butt off, and while a wiki has proved quite
fantastic
> in developing an encyclopedia/dictionary that has changed every
> institution's idea of what the web could be for, it's global communities
are
> hindered by using comms tools built for an age gone by.
>
> Come on mate. You don't need to be told this by an old man. I've read too
> much of what you've (and others) have written to imagine what you could do
> by using comms tools that were modern. All I'm saying is that if you (and
> the bright minds around here) can scope them, we can surely find a partner
> who will sponsor them.
What "comms tools" are old-age? Mailing lists? They've seemed to
work fine for all of us and most people seem to agree that they're
better than other tools like forums. However, if your "modern comms
tools" might be something like teleconferences, I'm sure that Sandy
would be happy to hear about that. :-) Though, I'm not sure how
others would take it. Instead of just saying that our communication
tools are antiquted, can you tell us some alternatives so we can
adequately discuss this?
> My regards to all,
> simonfj
and my regards to you.
>
>
>
> ComProj has long been a redirect to Communication Projects Group, so
> that hasn't changed. The projects page is what I changed the most; go
> take a look.
>
> As for forums etc., I understand where you are coming from, but I also
> don't see what is wrong with e-mail - surely pretty much everyone on
> the web knows how to use e-mail, and it allows really clear
> communication?
>
> Thank you for your contribution,
>
> Sean
>
>
>
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> 7:05 PM
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> ComProj(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/comproj
>
--
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023
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End of ComProj Digest, Vol 9, Issue 12
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