If I may interject, I know that any person over the age of 16 should be subjected to a CRB check as they are classed as over the age of consent in the Uk although this may sound alot if you are working with children (minors) in the Uk you should really be subject to a CRB in case you are challened by someone. Schools usually ask if you have been checked. Whilst this may sound off topic I was wondering how one would go about being a member of the team but from a young persons point of view because I am 17. I would also like to help out with the legal side of it seen as I am studying this at college. Chris ---------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Get all your favourite content with the slick new MSN Toolbar - FREE http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/111354027/direct/01/

Thomas Dalton wrote: Chris, Whilst amateur legal advice is not useful for the end game, it can help in moving things forward in the short term. It can also reduce the costs of paid for legal advice. So, Chris, I'd recommend you look for open questions like the CRB issue. If you are able to just drop a note to the list saying you're looking into it and will respond in approx. x days. The discussion can then be put on hold for a while and restarted when you are in a position to make a recommendation to be considered by the board. Having it backed by evidence rather than anecdotal experience that the rest of us are presenting will be of immense value when the board take full legal advice. For example, a clear summary of what is and is not legally required with respect to CRB checks, with references to the source materials for this information would save someone else a great deal of time. Thanks, Ross

2008/9/10 joseph seddon <life_is_bitter_sweet(a)hotmail.co.uk>uk>: I disagree, children under 16 live with their parents after all. CRB is overkill. Theresa

Firstly to answer Chris's question, Having read over a hundred posts on this thread, we could set the minimum age for Directors at 16 (or even 17) rather than 18 - and I for one think that would be in keeping with Wikipedia's ethos and normal practice of minimum age discrimination (though some consider that this would require the rest of the board to be CRB checked, personally I'm not convinced of that though I agree that anyone going in to schools would need this). Secondly I'm concerned about Data Protection and the relationship with the rest of the Wiki. Wikipedia EN currently works on US Privacy Law which is different to UK law, and I suspect that many of our practices would need to be reviewed if we had to comply with UK or EU Privacy standards (especially with regard to European views on IP addresses sometimes being personal data). I'm assuming that someone from Chapcom has looked into this and designed the proposed chapter structure so that the UK chapter would be sufficiently independent from Wikipedia not to be considered the UK Data Controller for Personal data on and processed for Wikipedia EN. But I would like to see confirmation of that (perhaps this is why the foundation has retained the right to withdraw trademarks rather having the right to fire the board?). I couldn't find an existing data protection registration for wikipedia or wikimedia with the Information commission http://www.ico.gov.uk/ESDWebPages/Search.asp but if the new charity is going to process information on members and donors it probably needs to register - which currently costs £35 per annum. I'd suggest that that registration makes it clear that the charity does not control the data on Wikipedia EN. Thirdly being a registered as opposed to unregistered charity. I will probably vote against any board candidate whose ambition for this organisation is to stay below the £5,000 annual threshold for charity registration, both as a failure of vision and because being a registered charity opens doors (I've already mentioned on this thread that Payroll giving is open to "all UK registered charities"). Incidentally I've now checked out www.justgiving.com and they will accept unregistered charities, however neither Wikipedia nor Wikimedia are registered with them, though Wikimedia but strangely not Wikipedia are registered with their US equivalent http://www.firstgiving.com. Regards Jonathan Cardy (WereSpielChequers) dahsun(a)yahoo.com --- On Thu, 11/9/08, Chris Wood <hot20024(a)hotmail.com> wrote:

Am I allowed to change the page about the [[Wikimedia UK v2.0/Candidate statements/Declaration]] or havent we agreed that board members can be under 18? Chris ---------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Win New York holidays with Kellogg’s & Live Search http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/111354033/direct/01/

2008/9/11 Chris Wood <hot20024(a)hotmail.com>om>: Have you read the charity commission's guidance on child directors? If so, what are your answers to all the issues they say need to be taken into account?

Just to be explicit on these points: On Thu, September 11, 2008 11:23, jonathan cardy wrote: Chapters have no control or any sort over the data held by WMF (and vice-versa). As such Data Protection law doesn't come into it for on-wiki membership information information. Checks were made at the creation of WMUK/WER and because there was only administrative (listing, subscriptions) use being made of the names and addresses *explicitly* given to WMUK/WER in order to undertake those administrative functions, then registration was not required. Doesn't do any harm though (but first get in some money and the ability to pay out for DP registration, CRB checks, etc, etc. There are far better things to do with early money!) Alison

I am sure you have looked at all possible structures and so know this, but there is an interchangability between UK and US charitable giving which means a UK chapter is not strictly needed. It is fairly recent so just in case people don't know: CAFAmerica run a "friends of" program which allows UK charities offer US tax eligibility to US donors (via the CAFAmerica registration which is set up as a US charity giving money to UK charities) and CAF run a program in the UK which allows UK donors to giftaid and reclaim tax on donations to US charities such as WMF. If you want therefore only one of these locations is needed. This may be relatively heavy and costly in admin and there are other implications but it does offer a strict alternative. BozMo On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 1:32 PM, Andrew Whitworth <wknight8111(a)gmail.com> wrote:

If you want to be wicked about it, it also allows the UK chapter to go fundraising in the US... On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 2:54 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com> wrote:

2008/9/11 Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>om>: Depends. Archives from Britian's imperial days have the potential to reduce systemic bias. -- geni

2008/9/11 Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>om>: No but at least there are records (mostly obviously some have been lost or deliberately destroyed). There are larger areas of the world were the simply are no other 19th centry sources. India is one example there are a lot of Victorian documents and drawings relating to areas of india which we have almost no coverage of. -- geni

2008/9/11 Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>om>: We could but they won't let you take your owner camera and/or scanner. University libraries might be a better bet. -- geni

2008/9/11 geni <geniice(a)gmail.com>om>: Presumably they have photocopiers (the stuff you're talking about will be public domain, yes?). Uni libraries are good for books, they're not so great for old records - they'll have some, but the British Library will be guaranteed to have anything you want (assuming it exists somewhere).

I'm good friends with User:Durova @ en-wiki. She might be interested in doing some restorations for us. _________________________________________________________________ Make a mini you and download it into Windows Live Messenger http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/111354029/direct/01/

On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 6:46 PM, Andrew Cates <Andrew(a)soschildren.org> wrote: The UL has an (excellent) imaging service -- they photocopied me several hundred pages of my set texts last year. They do a scanning service, but they appear to claim copyright on the scans. See http://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/deptserv/imagingservices/index.html and especially http://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/deptserv/imagingservices/reproductionrights.html I don't know if this claim of copyright is valid... -- Sam PGP public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sam_Korn/public_key

On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 7:47 PM, Andrew Cates <Andrew(a)soschildren.org> wrote: /you/ can... ;-) I know in US law a reproduction that attempts to be faithful to the original is ineligible for new copyright but I have a feeling that this is different in UK law. -- Sam PGP public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sam_Korn/public_key

2008/9/11 geni <geniice(a)gmail.com>om>: Why not? http://www.bl.uk/services/reading/conditions.html gives some (perfectly reasonable) conditions on copying, but as long as we follow them, there's should be no problem.

2008/9/11 Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>om>: A quick digression. There are five legal deposit libraries in the United Kingdom, plus Trinity in Dublin. Each of these is entitled to recieve a copy of each book published in the country, and has been for a varying period of time. They do not all acquire everything; there is plenty of material which is only in one or two of them. The BL is the largest, but certainly isn't guaranteed to be comprehensive - I mean, *I* possess books the BL doesn't. As for "old records", well, you'd be amazed at the archive material held by your average major university. We're looking at repositories here which are - from a digitisation purpose - 90% untouched. Once you're at that scale, the fine details of comparative size becomes less critical... -- - Andrew Gray andrew.gray(a)dunelm.org.uk

I do have a Visa Electron credit card account if that helps? Chris ________________________________ _________________________________________________________________ Discover Bird's Eye View now with Multimap from Live Search http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/111354026/direct/01/

2008/9/11 Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>om>: It's a debit card that works through the Visa network as a credit card. - d.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Thomas Dalton: i also have an Electron _debit_ (not credit) card. my understanding is that it's basically identical to Switch debit, or Visa debit, except that it's available to accounts without an overdraft. i.e., if you make a purchase on an Electron card, if there aren't enough funds in the account to cover it, the transaction will be denied; unlike Switch, where the transaction will go through immediately, but the account might not have enough funds to cover it. i can't imagine how this is relevant to WMUK, though! (perhaps if we want to issue company credit/debit cards for incidental expenses...) - river.

On Thu, September 11, 2008 16:05, Thomas Dalton wrote: I'll clarify this (as I have one too) The "Electron" card is, accurately speaking, a debit card and only a debit card: the money is deducted from the account immediately (although actually it is reserved at the time of sale and may take a day or so for the transaction to be completed) The difference is that the full number on the card codes as a "Visa Credit" card, thus it can be used online where a debit card might not be acceptable to the merchant concerned. Ah, number theory as applied to reference numbers ;-) Alison

Alison I have just spoken to my next door neighbours daughter who works in a bank and she says that there are special exceptions. If you would like me to find out what they are then please dont hesitate to ask me privately of what you want to know and I will get back to you on it. I do pay bills at home but dont live on my own I still live with parents but pay the bills. Chris ---------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Make a mini you and download it into Windows Live Messenger http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/111354029/direct/01/

On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 1:52 PM, geni <geniice(a)gmail.com> wrote: It strikes me that the first and most pressing objective of the board should be to obtain charitable status, for which, as we have seen so clearly, a bank account is necessary. Accepting directors aged under 18 (and therefore without credit ratings) seems likely to place additional obstacles in the path towards charitable status. I agree that having directors of 16 or 17 would be a "nice to have". I don't think it's important enough to compromise the most important aim of the project. -- Sam PGP public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sam_Korn/public_key

At 13:17 +0000 11/9/08, joseph seddon wrote: Do all board directors have to be signatories to the bank account? I thought that the standard "two from three" signatories was all that was required... Gordo -- "Think Feynman"///////// http://pobox.com/~gordo/ gordon.joly(a)pobox.com///

At 12:17 +0100 11/9/08, Alison Wheeler wrote: There is also the case of having a CCJ and not knowing about it! Gordo -- "Think Feynman"///////// http://pobox.com/~gordo/ gordon.joly(a)pobox.com///