[WikiEN-l] [Ticket#: 115103-FW] Just wondering

Sun Mar 20 23:20:54 UTC 2005

Sj wrote:

>On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 01:15:38 -0800, Ray Saintonge <saintonge at telus.net> wrote:
>  
>
>>Wikimedia Foundation wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>---- Forwarded message from "O'Neil, David MSER:EX"
>>><Dave.ONeil at gems8.gov.bc.ca> ----
>>>
>>>Date:
>>>From: "O'Neil, David MSER:EX" <Dave.ONeil at gems8.gov.bc.ca>
>>>To: "'board at wikimedia.org'" <board at wikimedia.org>
>>>Cc:
>>>Reply-To:
>>>Subject: [Ticket#: 115103-FW] Just wondering
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>Hello,
>>>>     Just wondering what the policy on materials that are embedded in
>>>>your pages, when the material is taken from other sites?  I noticed a
>>>>map on
>>>>site (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:BCMap-doton-Victoria.png
>>>><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:BCMap-doton-Victoria.png> )  that
>>>>originally came from our web site
>>>>(http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/data/pop/maps/rdmap.htm
>>>><http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/data/pop/maps/rdmap.htm> ).  The real
>>>>source
>>>>of this image really should be BC Stats, Ministry of Management
>>>>Services.
>>>>Descriptive bits were removed from the image, but I don't think it
>>>>removes
>>>>the reality of the actual source of the image.  I'm not that retentive,
>>>>but
>>>>we try to always properly attribute source, to avoid confusion (among
>>>>other
>>>>things).
>>>>
>>>>Cheers
>>>>
>>>>David O'Neil,  Manager
>>>>Population Section, BC Stats
>>>>Service BC
>>>>Ministry of Management Services
>>>>
>>>>email: Dave.ONeil at gems8.gov.bc.ca
>>>>tel: 250-387-0335    fax: 250-387-0329
>>>>www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca <www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>---- End forwarded message ----
>>>
>>>
>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>Hello,
>>>      Just wondering what the policy on materials that are embedded in
>>>your pages, when the material is taken from other sites?  I noticed a map on
>>>site (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:BCMap-doton-Victoria.png
>>><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:BCMap-doton-Victoria.png> )  that
>>>originally came from our web site
>>>(http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/data/pop/maps/rdmap.htm
>>><http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/data/pop/maps/rdmap.htm> ).  The real source
>>>of this image really should be BC Stats, Ministry of Management Services.
>>>Descriptive bits were removed from the image, but I don't think it removes
>>>the reality of the actual source of the image.  I'm not that retentive, but
>>>we try to always properly attribute source, to avoid confusion (among other
>>>things).
>>>
>>>Cheers
>>>
>>>David O'Neil,  Manager
>>>Population Section, BC Stats
>>>Service BC
>>>Ministry of Management Services
>>>
>>>email: Dave.ONeil at gems8.gov.bc.ca
>>>tel: 250-387-0335    fax: 250-387-0329
>>>www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca <www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca>
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>I have some serious doubts about the claims of the BC Government in this
>>regard.
>>    1. It is really unclear whether our contributor copied these maps
>>(and similar ones at other articles that Mr. O'Neill did not mention)
>>from the site in question.  True our version differs in that we do not
>>include the names for the Regional Districts, but we also do not show an
>>inset map from their site that gives greater detail ton the more heavily
>>populated southwestern corner of the province.
>>    2. The Regional Districts are a creation of legislation.  British
>>Columbia does not have counties in the more traditional sense of that
>>term.  These districts when they began to be created in 1965 were in
>>some respects equivalent to the establishment of counties.  In other jurisdictions
>>Mr.O'neil's claim would be tantamount to claiming that a map of the
>>counties there are not in the public domain.
>>    3. It is not clear that legislative provisions can be copyrighted,
>>and it would therefore seem that Mr. O'Neil's claims are ultra vires, no
>>matter what is said ion the BC government website.
>>
>>Ec (a resident of BC)
>>    
>>
>
>I hope you're right about this.  However, when I mentioned the
>complaint on the uploader (Denelson83)'s talk page, I received a most
>unpleasant and uninformative response.  It would seem to be easy for
>the uploader to help resolve the issue, rather than ranting about
>it...
>
It looks as if our friend believes himself to be immune from criticism. 
:-)  

He is not the only one to have used the same map.  See also 
[[Image:Bcmap.PNG]].  This one was added by [[User:Earl Andrew]] who 
also claims that he created the image.  The end of his talk page has a 
cryptic comment about not responding to inquiries about images.

Personally, I believe in a copyright policy where we give ourselves a 
significant benefit of the doubt.  However, doing that involves an open 
expression of the reasons for doubting a putative claimant's rights.  
What irritates me most in this situation, where I believe that we have a 
strong argument for keeping the images, is the questionable claim that 
these contributors drew the maps themselves.  A copyright argument based 
on a misrepresentation is difficult to sustain.  At least one of them 
should site his source.  I do not believe that the simple addition of a 
red dot implies the creation of a whole new work.

Ec