Brion Vibber wrote:
>Offense is only taken, not given. There is no objective measure of
>offensiveness that I can perform; actual reactions and quanitifable
>results as to how the project is affected are much more convincing to
>me.
This is a good point. There's no way of knowing simply from the
phrase "Crucified Christ" whether the speaker means it as a joke or
as some sort of actual statement of religious belief.
Mormons actually regard the crucifix itself as offensive. They argue
that using it as a religious symbol is tantamount to worshipping the
weapon used to murder Christ. Obviously, most traditional Christian
religions don't share this attitude, but it has a certain logic to it.
I remember taking a Japanese Buddhist on a visit to a Catholic church
once. She walked around the chapel, looking at the depictions of the
stations of the cross, with Jesus dragging the crucifix and being
tortured with his crown of thorns and blood dripping down his
forehead. I don't know if she was "offended," exactly, but she
certainly found it scary.
--
--------------------------------
| Sheldon Rampton
| Editor, PR Watch (www.prwatch.org)
| Author of books including:
| Friends In Deed: The Story of US-Nicaragua Sister Cities
| Toxic Sludge Is Good For You
| Mad Cow USA
| Trust Us, We're Experts
--------------------------------
Graft Wrote:
>If this is going to become such an issue, might I propose that, to
avoid debate
>in the future, we switch to UseRealNames (e.g., your handle is
>FirstnameLastname, or FMLastname)? This, it seems to me, is the only
clear way
>to avoid arguments over what is, and isn't, offensive. I see no
reason to
>avoid this; we can facilitate the process by either converting existing
>usernames, or we can just leave it up to people to redirect as they deem
>appropriate.
Thoughts, yes. I have some: All I'm ever interested in having people
find out about me online is exactly what I want them to, and nothing
more. I've succeeded quite well at it so far. If UseRealNames is
policy, then I as a sysop would be expected to honor that policy, and
so I as a result would quit contributing. Opinions about this vary of
course ("this" being "UseRealNames" and also "the significance of a
pseudonymous contributor quitting").
cheers,
kq
Like Yogi Berra, I didn't really say everything I said. Only the first and last quote Kendra Mayfield attributed to me was accurate.
"I decided to contribute because I think I have a lot of general knowledge, and I like being part of an online community," he said.
and
"I think that over the next few years, it's going to develop into a world-class encyclopedia that will rival the Britannica."
(I think I would remember having used words like 'astounded', 'passionate', or 'sanctity' -- words I do not throw around lightly. Ah, the burdens of being a public figure ;-)
"Uncle" Ed Poor
-----Original Message-----
From: koyaanisqatsi(a)nupedia.com [mailto:koyaanisqatsi@nupedia.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 3:15 PM
To: wikien-l(a)wikipedia.org
Subject: [WikiEN-l] wired article
the wired article is out:
http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,57364,00.html
kq
Hi folks,
I know we have a problem sometimes with badly chosen names (to put it
mildly!). One I have heard some comment about is CRUCIFIEDCHRIST which I
agree is in very bad taste, as it appears to mock the beliefs of many Wiki
users. (Either that or it is someone with a Woodrow Wilson-style Christ
complex!) It would be as unacceptable as if someone called themeselves
BUSHWARMONGER, LAPDOG BLAIR or BELSEN. It is provocative, offensive to many
and should be removed. Is there some procedure by which those in unsuitable
names are asked to change them? I haven't seen CUMGUZZLER for a while. Maybe
he has renamed, reformed or is living up to his name and so otherwise
distracted. (Was it a he? I never checked!)
JT
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Jonathan,
I think you are seriously mistaken about Mav. He is one of the nicest
people, and one of the most constructive people, I have met on Wikipedia.
You have seriously misjudged him and your comments were certainly open to
the implication of a threat, perhaps unintentionally.
J.T.
>From: Zoe <zoecomnena(a)yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: wikien-l(a)wikipedia.org
>To: wikien-l(a)wikipedia.org, krooger(a)debian.org
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] 142.177.xxx.xxx (aka 24) is at it again
>Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 19:03:37 -0800 (PST)
>
>
>WOAH!
>Jonathan, WHAT are you talking about? Mav is one of the least contentious
>people around here! Be nice? Mav is always nice, except when there are
>times when it's wrong to be nice. Do you have any idea what you're talking
>about?
>Zoe
> Jonathan Walther <krooger(a)debian.org> wrote:On Mon, Jan 27, 2003 at
>02:38:39PM -0800, Daniel Mayer wrote:
> >>Murder of vast numbers of people who believe as you
> >>do becomes justified, when you use control of a
> >>technology that they don't have, to censor their
> >>views on what you are doing, and make it impossible
> >>for them to stop you any other way.
> >
> >I may have been wrong in banning the IP from en.wiki
> >but I don't appreciate thinly veiled threats on my
> >life.
>
>That wasn't a thinly veiled threat on your life. That was a wakeup
>call. Try being nice, and let other people have their day in the sun
>too. By the way, what did he mean by "people who believe as you do"?
>Are you a Republican?
>
> >Can we ban all this users IPs and perhaps call the
> >cops?
>
>That is an extreme, and unwarranted reaction.
>
>Jonathan
>
>--
>Geek House Productions, Ltd.
>
>Providing Unix & Internet Contracting and Consulting,
>QA Testing, Technical Documentation, Systems Design & Implementation,
>General Programming, E-commerce, Web & Mail Services since 1998
>
>Phone: 604-435-1205
>Email: djw(a)reactor-core.org
>Webpage: http://reactor-core.org
>Address: 2459 E 41st Ave, Vancouver, BC V5R2W2
> > ATTACHMENT part 2 application/pgp-signature
>
>
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Clutch said:
>A) Mav summarily reverted a lot of my edits on the
>strength of some bullshit Zionist claims that I was
>biased, anti-Semitic, and the like.
>I assumed 24 was another person who had received that
>treatment from Mav.
Eh? If anything I sympathize more with the
Palestinians than Israelis. However, I will not allow
others to insert their POV into articles even when I
happen to agree with that POV. BTW I don't recall ever
saying you were anti-Semitic (which is an odd term
anyway since Arabic and Hebrew are both Semitic
languages).
--mav
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I am horrified by the way that someone is clearly
threatening to murder one of us. I am surprised that so few
people here find this a problem. Does anything think that a
death threat is a joke? How would you like it if someone
was justifying the murder of your children?
Also, I just as horrified by the way that Jonathan (Clutch)
slanders this victim, justifies the clear death threat, and
- in a moment of absolute delusions - implicitylu blames
this on me (RK). For months now, as many of you know,
Jonathan has been suffering from paranoid delusions that
the Wikipedia community hates Christians. Now, we see the
depth of his illness.
I have said so before, and I say, again, Jonathan needs to
be banned from Wikipedia. Not only does he have a long
history of printing anti-Semitic incitement, but now he has
reached out with hateful speech to others here. Apparently
in his mind, it is Ok to send implic it death threats to
Wikipedia sysops.
Hey, if I don't like what a sysop says to me, can I
threaten to murder them too? ...
The real problem is why the rest of you let such a
disturbed and hateful person justify death threats,
anti-Semitism, and paranoid anti-Christian conspiracy
theories. This man needs medication; not unlimited access
to disrupt the Wikipedia community. This disruption of
Wikipedia only occurs because you allow it to.
If you allow anaonymous users to send very clear death
threats, and if you allow wackos to stay on Wikipedia
justifying them (or denying that they exist) all you will
end up doing is driving rational people away from this
project. I certainly won't stay on a project where
anti-Semites might threaten to kill me. Is this really so
hard to understand?
Or will I get a death threat myself for writing this
letter?
Robert (RK)
=====
"I prefer a wicked person who knows he is wicked, to a righteous person who knows he is righteous".
The Seer of Lublin [Jacob Isaac Ha-Hozeh Mi-Lublin, 1745-1815]
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Jonathan and RK,
Please don't use this mailing list as a forum for a bad-tempered fight
(that's what private e-mail is for ;-)
RK: You are concerned with anti-Semitism and attempts to conceal or mask
it.
Clutch: I'm not sure where you're coming from, but "A soft answer
turneth away wrath."
Both of youse: chill out and try to focus on writing good articles.
Ed Poor
x5479
I found this on my meta talk page after I extended a
ban on an IP that is virtually identical to an IP that
had already been banned for making a hideous racial
slur:
>....
>Murder of vast numbers of people who believe as you
>do becomes justified, when you use control of a
>technology that they don't have, to censor their
>views on what you are doing, and make it impossible
>for them to stop you any other way.
I may have been wrong in banning the IP from en.wiki
but I don't appreciate thinly veiled threats on my
life.
Can we ban all this users IPs and perhaps call the
cops?
For background on this user see:
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Maveric149/archive_8
Direct link to my talk page:
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Maveric149
--mav
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