[WikiEN-l] RE: WikiEN-l Digest, Vol 30, Issue 100

Wed Jan 11 16:31:29 UTC 2006

I am going to have to agree with the doll people about the current state of wiki... in fact when I have made my three months and 1000 edits and I become an admin, I will be an admin for the little people... why bother with all of the political crap... if it seems like someone is abusing their power, I will do everything in my power to stop it all the while giving the little people like the doll specialists a fair shake. 

-----Original Message-----
From: wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org [mailto:wikien-l-bounces at Wikipedia.org] On Behalf Of wikien-l-request at Wikipedia.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 9:14 AM
To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
Subject: WikiEN-l Digest, Vol 30, Issue 100

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: How to bring back people who don't want to bother? (Rob Smith)
   2. Re: How to bring back people who don't want to bother?
      (David Gerard)
   3. Re: How to bring back people who don't want to bother?
      (David Gerard)
   4. IP Blocks (Jason Gazeley)
   5. Re: How to bring back people who don't want to bother?
      (Arkady Rose)
   6. Re: Re: How to bring back people who don't want to bother?
      (Rob Smith)
   7. static html dump script for wikipedia (Mikko Virtaperko)
   8. Re: How to bring back people who don't want to bother?
      (Snowspinner)
   9. Re: IP Blocks (David Gerard)
  10. Re: How to bring back people who don't want to bother? (geni)
  11. Re: Fwd: 6 Free Offers - Clearance - Extended until 31st
      January (David Gerard)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 08:28:59 -0700
From: Rob Smith <nobs03 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] How to bring back people who don't want to
	bother?
To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
Message-ID:
	<52a8cf060601110728l1529e852s5e8b09de63d807e4 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Take from a user victimized by the concerted efforts of sockpuppet trolls
given licence to run rampant throughout Wikipedia: Reputation is everything.

Nobs01

On 1/11/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:

> " that's part of our public image now."

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:43:45 +0000
From: David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com>
Subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: How to bring back people who don't want to
	bother?
To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>, Jimmy Wales
	<jwales at wikia.com>
Cc: Arkady Rose <arkady.rose at gmail.com>
Message-ID:
	<fbad4e140601110743j19081ae9v6d19a37bb37c4314 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Justin Cormack wrote:

>There are other reasons to create non wikipedia wikis too.

Yes, but in this case it's essentially the same sort of thing as a
specialist area in Wikipedia - they're specifically not wanting to
bother because AFD is *officially* an ignorantocracy now.

>Encourage them to use a compatible license, and encourage them
>to use commons for media.

At least the first, certainly!

>Whats the field?

Doll collectors, as I said. Significant hobby economically, these
things go for hundreds and sometimes thousands of dollars ... see
http://www.denofangels.com/ and [[Super Dollfie]] (one of the most
popular examples).

You can argue that Wikipedia can live without them. And of course it
can. But having a (deserved IMO) reputation for stupidity making
people from specialist fields not even want to bother with Wikipedia
is surely NOT a good thing for us. At all.

- d.

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:48:28 +0000
From: David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com>
Subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: How to bring back people who don't want to
	bother?
To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
Message-ID:
	<fbad4e140601110748wae3f3d5gc72d1e6ef6b42aed at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Nobs01 wrote:

>Take from a user victimized by the concerted efforts of sockpuppet trolls
>given licence to run rampant throughout Wikipedia: Reputation is everything.

You were banned for personal attacks and placed on probation after
that for disruption:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Nobs01_and_others#Nobs01_banned_for_personal_attacks

Oddly enough, cases like yours are not what I was talking about.

- d.

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:01:36 +0000
From: "Jason Gazeley" <burwellian at hotmail.co.uk>
Subject: [WikiEN-l] IP Blocks
To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org
Message-ID: <BAY15-F33E3235B548DB109BDCB183240 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Is there any way to block IP's yet allow logged in users to edit from that 
IP? My college's IP got blocked this morning due to Vandalism. I was just 
about to revert some other vandalism at lunch when I got the blocked notice.

Checking the IP's edit history, a couple of the vandalism edits have still 
not been reverted. The pages on "Proponent" and "United States Department 
for Transportation" are still vandalised but being blocked I can not revert.

Thanks

Burwellian

_________________________________________________________________
Are you using the latest version of MSN Messenger? Download MSN Messenger 
7.5 today! http://messenger.msn.co.uk

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:02:01 +0000
From: Arkady Rose <arkady.rose at gmail.com>
Subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: How to bring back people who don't want to
	bother?
To: David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com>
Cc: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
Message-ID: <43C52BF9.5020500 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

David Gerard wrote:

>>Whats the field?
>>    
>>
>
>
>Doll collectors, as I said. Significant hobby economically, these
>things go for hundreds and sometimes thousands of dollars ... see
>http://www.denofangels.com/ and [[Super Dollfie]] (one of the most
>popular examples).
>  
>
Specifically, Asian Ball-Jointed Dolls, as opposed to porcelain or any
other types of dolls. They have only been around about 10 years, but
already they have gained so rapidly in popularity that a recent example
of a limited-edition doll sold on eBay for $5100.

The sort of information likely to be put into an ABJD wiki is going to
be histories of the companies producing the dolls, details of all the
different resin types and head molds produced, details of the most
widely-acclaimed face-up artists (people who paint the faces) and
customisers, and sections with how-tos on customisation and modding etc.
- not the sort of thing for Wikipedia, perhaps. But the fact remains
that basically the doll community has seen how specialists in other
fields have been treated by the rabid AfD morons who assume that because
*they've* not heard of something it must be not noteable and promptly
delete, and quite frankly they fail to see why they should even bother
touching the doll-related articles in WP when instead they can just
create their own wiki, free of the current poisonous WP politics and
petty instruction-creep that at present seems, quite frankly, endemic
throughout WP at present and incidentally is the main reason I've pretty
much gone on indefinite hiatus from both editing and from wikien-l
personally.

-a

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 09:05:29 -0700
From: Rob Smith <nobs03 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: How to bring back people who don't want to
	bother?
To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
Message-ID: <52a8cf060601110805if617c13m54f468bb40b81e at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Enduring six months of personal attacks, responding to it once during an
ArbCom Hearing, and being banned for a year, while those who trashed me and
smeared me as being "banned for personal attacks" are given license to do it
again. This why the image and reputation of Wikipedia, and the image and
reputation of editors contributing in good faith is everything.

nobs

On 1/11/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Nobs01 wrote:
>
> >Take it from a user victimized by the concerted efforts of sockpuppet
> trolls
> >given licence to run rampant throughout Wikipedia: Reputation is
> everything.
>
>
> You were banned for personal attacks and placed on probation after
> that for disruption:
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Nobs01_and_others#Nobs01_banned_for_personal_attacks
>
> Oddly enough, cases like yours are not what I was talking about.
>
>
> - d.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 10:39:55 +0200
From: Mikko Virtaperko <mikko at virtaperko.fi>
Subject: [WikiEN-l] static html dump script for wikipedia
To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
Message-ID: <43C4C45B.9010301 at virtaperko.fi>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Hi, I wrote PHP script to dump Wikipedia:

http://mvp.jesusterror.com/wiki.html

It will create static html from defined number of Wikipedia pages. NOTE: 
You must have Wikipedia installed locally to do this.

If anyone is interested I'm happy to answer any questions or improve the 
program.

Mikko Virtaperko
mikko ät virtaperko fi

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 11:08:18 -0500
From: Snowspinner <Snowspinner at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] How to bring back people who don't want to
	bother?
To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Message-ID: <722597B2-06F0-49CC-A46F-1535AD80F1CA at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed

I think a very good first step would be to find a specialist wiki or  
two that are GFDL (Whether forks like Comixpedia or not) and copy  
them in. It shows humility, improves our project, and directly  
addresses the issue.

I'd say Memory Alpha, but they're CC. Comixpedia would be too  
controversial right now, this doll
wiki is too new. Any other ideas?

-Phil

On Jan 11, 2006, at 9:57 AM, David Gerard wrote:

> There's a specialist topic that's about to create its own wiki. In
> discussion on a board, one person said "Why not just use Wikipedia?
> What you're describing is identical." Another responded with: "No,
> some 15 year old moron will mark it for deletion just because they
> know nothing about it."
>
> So that's part of our public image now. Well done alienating webcomics
> authors, i.e. creators of memes and popular culture on the net.
>
> Not to mention the way the webcomics AC case ended: AFD trolls now
> have the all-clear to work actively to alienate actual experts,
> because the self-professed ignorant are now *officially* to be
> considered equal to those who have an actual bloody clue.
>
> I was amazed knowledge of it had spread so far. Jimbo, you heard about
> this example at the recent UK Wikimedia meet (the doll collectors) -
> this was actually an independent example from the same field.
>
> Experts from fields that actually haven't been alienated literally
> don't think it's worth bothering to try writing in Wikipedia any more.
> Is there anything we can do to rehabilitate Wikipedia's image in the
> outside world?
>
> (yes, geni, I know you're happy to be rid of annoying specialist  
> experts)
>
>
> - d.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:09:56 +0000
From: David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] IP Blocks
To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>,
	burwellian at hotmail.co.uk
Message-ID:
	<fbad4e140601110809x39769ee5i12fda2c9d36f2e7b at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Jason Gazeley wrote:

>Is there any way to block IP's yet allow logged in users to edit from that
>IP? My college's IP got blocked this morning due to Vandalism. I was just
>about to revert some other vandalism at lunch when I got the blocked notice.

MediaWiki bug 550:

    http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=550

At present it's got a few suggested patches, it's working out what's
the best one to implement in terms of its social effects.

(cc to wikitech-l - what's the current developers' view on a good
solution to 550? Are we anywhere near having one implemented?)

As for the block itself, that's obviously collateral damage, and if
you can tell us the IP it should be promptly unblocked. What was the
text of the block message?

- d.

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:10:06 +0000
From: geni <geniice at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] How to bring back people who don't want to
	bother?
To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>
Message-ID:
	<f80608430601110810s375fd077k3421b7cb72a88c91 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On 1/11/06, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> There's a specialist topic that's about to create its own wiki. In
> discussion on a board, one person said "Why not just use Wikipedia?
> What you're describing is identical." Another responded with: "No,
> some 15 year old moron will mark it for deletion just because they
> know nothing about it."
>

Unlikely. The problem is the people who do know a little about it.
People don't tend to delete the maths stuff because they don't
understand it at all. People do understand webcomics a little with the
result that they feel they know enough to list them on afd.

> So that's part of our public image now. Well done alienating webcomics
> authors, i.e. creators of memes and popular culture on the net.
>

Evidence that there is in fact a link here? Generaly if you look at 
the spred of info about wikipedia across weforums webcomic are not
mentioned.

> Not to mention the way the webcomics AC case ended: AFD trolls now
> have the all-clear to work actively to alienate actual experts,
> because the self-professed ignorant are now *officially* to be
> considered equal to those who have an actual bloody clue.
>
> I was amazed knowledge of it had spread so far. Jimbo, you heard about
> this example at the recent UK Wikimedia meet (the doll collectors) -
> this was actually an independent example from the same field.
>

Why? Pretty much any forum on the web you go to has at least one
thread on wikipedia these days. We can't hide stuff any more.

> Experts from fields that actually haven't been alienated literally
> don't think it's worth bothering to try writing in Wikipedia any more.
> Is there anything we can do to rehabilitate Wikipedia's image in the
> outside world?

Without changeing it's fundimental structure? Not really. If you are
going to write about areas of popular culture there are going to be
other people around and they are sometimes going to dissagree with
you.

> (yes, geni, I know you're happy to be rid of annoying specialist experts)

No I'd accept them also decideing not be anoying.

--
geni

------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:14:02 +0000
From: David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com>
Subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Fwd: 6 Free Offers - Clearance - Extended
	until 31st	January
To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at wikipedia.org>, Jimmy Wales
	<jwales at wikia.com>
Cc: Arkady Rose <arkady.rose at gmail.com>
Message-ID:
	<fbad4e140601110814v7aa76150p7e7a06dc791513dd at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I asked Arkady if there was a public link to the discussion. She said:

> You have to be a member of DoA to read most of the threads, so no - it's
> not publically viewable. However from a quick glance through the
> discussion as it stands, the overwhelming consensus is "fuck WP" - only
> more polite than that. They don't want to get involved with the
> insidious bureaucracy and delete-happy morons, and frankly I don't blame
> them. They want to share their enjoyment of dolls, not get caught up in
> stupid edit-wars with Cat Piss Men.
> And you can quote me on that, too.

Note, by the way, that this field has NOT yet been through the AFD
grinder that schools and webcomics have been through - rather, they're
another group who have seen the rubbish going on there and decided
"bugger that."

Who will be next? Who will be next that we don't hear about until well
after the event?

Tell me that's not AFD culture being directly damaging to Wikipedia,
now and for the future.

The AC has resoundingly failed to deal with the issue. (And I
apologise myself for being marked away at the time.) It needs dealing
with. Who can or will do something about it that will stick?

- d.

------------------------------

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