[Foundation-l] Cherokee Wikipedia Name Suggestion

Thu Jul 13 19:18:02 UTC 2006

--- "Jeff V. Merkey" <jmerkey at wolfmountaingroup.com>
wrote:

> Birgitte SB wrote:
> 
> >You may want to be sure and explain exactly what
> the
> >GFDL entails in this case.  There is no guarantee
> that
> >any work that is done under this license will be
> >treated in a sacred manner by downstream users. 
> >Non-speakers would be within full rights to take
> the
> >fork made in the Ute's language and put it up on a
> new
> >website or even on Wikipedia where any "16 year old
> >with a computer" will be able to edit it.
> >  
> >
> Which is why the translations will be intertribal
> only and not accessible
> to the general public in the case of the Uto-Aztecan
> translations -- at 
> their
> request. The Foundation will have access to it,
> contingent on the 
> concessions
> the Ute's are willing to make.
> 
> There are those involved who want it accessible to
> everyone, but their 
> leaders
> make the final call. They have agreed that all Ute
> Indians will have 
> access to
> the site. It doesn't violate the GFDL, its their
> language and they are 
> providing me
> all four dialects, which this is the firs time in
> their history they 
> have done so
> 
> Ute, Unite Ute, Uncompaghre Ute, and the the ancient
> Deep Ute Language. And
> unknown to the general public, the Ute's, like most
> tribes have a 
> written language
> using syllabaric lithographs for their language.
> Some examples of it can 
> be viewed
> as pictographs in nine-mile canyon in Utah -- they
> have never shared it 
> before.
> 
> So as near as I can tell, I have made some very good
> progress very 
> quickly. The Foundation
> is sensitive and respectful fo these types of
> projects.
> 

You certainly may do your best to restrict "access" to
the end product as you are planning.  This is what
many libraries do regarding rare PD texts.  However if
*one* person who is given access decides for any
reason to make a copy public, the cat is out of the
bag.  For example a library may have strong
restrictions on access. They do not allow their
material scanned or photocopied you are only allowed
to read it within one room.  However I could type a
transcription on a laptop over the course of several
weeks and put it on Wikisource.  Assuming this
material is in the public domain, the library can do
nothing in such in event as they only own the
particular book not the copyright.  

This could one day happen to the Ute's works.  Once it
is made public in part or whole, it can be treated in
any way allowed under the GFDL.  The foundation has no
control over it, however respectful they wish to be. 
I am not trying to encourage action of this sort.  But
everyone involved needs to be aware of the
ramifications of using copyleft material.  This may
seem an unlikely possibilty at the moment, but over
time it more likely than not this material will become
public.  Although it may be a hundred years till that
happens.  I respect what you are trying to do and the
Ute as well.  I would hate for something like this to
happen and the Ute to feel blindsided by such a turn
of events.  

> >Wikipedia is alien to most cultures I imagine.  It
> is
> >alien to capitalist culture and academic culture to
> >name two.  However many people accostomed to those
> >cultures learn to adapt to and even appreciate WP
> >culture. 
> >
> 
> > I think you are focusing too much on the
> >negative at WP and overlooking the positives of
> >inter-culture collaboration.  
> >
> No, I am a WP advocate, so don't misconstrue what I
> say. I am
> just coldly and directly stating the reality. Also,
> There is little to
> no benefit to interculture collaboration if you
> don't speak the language
> of what's presented, so the consumers of the content
> will invariably be the
> tribes themselves, and not the general community, so
> I think it's a moot 
> point.
> 

I am not trying to miscontrue your comments, please
correct me where I have.  I believe it is too easy to
say "the Wikipedia way is alien to the culture of X
and they will not be able to work under it's
policies."  Because X can be filled with many things
which *have* adapted to WP culture.  As I said above
WP is very contrary to capitalist and academic
cultures.  Although there are always individuals who
cannot adapt, I do not like to see this generalized to
an entire culture.   However, I always found it easy
to work within the policies here, so it I may be
completely wrong in this.

> >I hope your endeavor
> >succeeds in any event.  
> >
> >Birgitte SB
> >
> >--- "Jeff V. Merkey"
> <jmerkey at wolfmountaingroup.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> >  
> >
> >>Oldak Quill wrote:
> >>
> >>    
> >>
> >>>Not at all. The best way to improve the site
> would
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>be to work with
> >>    
> >>
> >>>other langauge Wikipedias and within Wikimedia.
> Are
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>you being active
> >>    
> >>
> >>>in seeking members?
> >>> 
> >>>
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>Yes, I am, however, our culture is alien to the
> >>Wikipedia culture and 
> >>there are going to be issues
> >>with the way the site operates.  So far every
> >>Cherokee who has edited on 
> >>WP has gotten banned
> >>or scrutinized to the point they leave.  We have a
> >>concept of respecting 
> >>the space of a person
> >>who is working on something. 
> >>
> >>WP 's policies allow a 16 year old with a computer
> >>to come in and 
> >>disrupt someone else's work and this
> >>doesn;t work for us.  Our culture is based on
> mutual
> >>respect, and I 
> >>believe WP and Wales operate on the
> >>premise people on WP should be the same way.  This
> >>has not been the 
> >>course followed.  I think WP should
> >>continue and we can do hat we need with the
> content
> >>-- off site where 
> >>our cultural issues can coexist
> >>peacefully. 
> >>
> >>You wont get many native people editing here due
> to
> >>the way the site is 
> >>organized -- respect for others is
> >>lacking in the way articles are edited.  It's ok
> >>though, we can still 
> >>both be successful if we figure out a way
> >>to create dual environments where folks can be
> >>successful.
> >>
> >>I am meeting w9ith the tribal council of the Ute,
> >>Shoshone, and Unita 
> >>Nations on July 18, at 1:30 in Fort Duschene
> >>on the machine translations for their Wikipedia,
> so
> >>I am making 
> >>excellent progress.  They also expressed a desire
> >>to host their content off Wikipedia due to their
> >>review of the issues 
> >>with how the site works -- its alien to most
> native
> >>cultures.  The Ute's believe their language is
> >>sacred and they don't 
> >>want non speakers working on it for religious
> >>reasons.  You are going to find this is a
> prevalent
> >>attitude among 
> >>Native Peoples.  The ute's did not even allow
> their
> >>langauge to be written down until the mid 1970's
> due
> >>to their religious 
> >>beliefs, so this is a big step for them.
> >>
> >>Jeff

<snip>

Birgitte SB

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