[Foundation-l] Cherokee Wikipedia Name Suggestion

Thu Jul 13 19:06:42 UTC 2006

Birgitte SB wrote:

>You may want to be sure and explain exactly what the
>GFDL entails in this case.  There is no guarantee that
>any work that is done under this license will be
>treated in a sacred manner by downstream users. 
>Non-speakers would be within full rights to take the
>fork made in the Ute's language and put it up on a new
>website or even on Wikipedia where any "16 year old
>with a computer" will be able to edit it.
>  
>
Which is why the translations will be intertribal only and not accessible
to the general public in the case of the Uto-Aztecan translations -- at 
their
request. The Foundation will have access to it, contingent on the 
concessions
the Ute's are willing to make.

There are those involved who want it accessible to everyone, but their 
leaders
make the final call. They have agreed that all Ute Indians will have 
access to
the site. It doesn't violate the GFDL, its their language and they are 
providing me
all four dialects, which this is the firs time in their history they 
have done so

Ute, Unite Ute, Uncompaghre Ute, and the the ancient Deep Ute Language. And
unknown to the general public, the Ute's, like most tribes have a 
written language
using syllabaric lithographs for their language. Some examples of it can 
be viewed
as pictographs in nine-mile canyon in Utah -- they have never shared it 
before.

So as near as I can tell, I have made some very good progress very 
quickly. The Foundation
is sensitive and respectful fo these types of projects.

>Wikipedia is alien to most cultures I imagine.  It is
>alien to capitalist culture and academic culture to
>name two.  However many people accostomed to those
>cultures learn to adapt to and even appreciate WP
>culture. 
>

> I think you are focusing too much on the
>negative at WP and overlooking the positives of
>inter-culture collaboration.  
>
No, I am a WP advocate, so don't misconstrue what I say. I am
just coldly and directly stating the reality. Also, There is little to
no benefit to interculture collaboration if you don't speak the language
of what's presented, so the consumers of the content will invariably be the
tribes themselves, and not the general community, so I think it's a moot 
point.

>I hope your endeavor
>succeeds in any event.  
>
>Birgitte SB
>
>--- "Jeff V. Merkey" <jmerkey at wolfmountaingroup.com>
>wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Oldak Quill wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Not at all. The best way to improve the site would
>>>      
>>>
>>be to work with
>>    
>>
>>>other langauge Wikipedias and within Wikimedia. Are
>>>      
>>>
>>you being active
>>    
>>
>>>in seeking members?
>>> 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>Yes, I am, however, our culture is alien to the
>>Wikipedia culture and 
>>there are going to be issues
>>with the way the site operates.  So far every
>>Cherokee who has edited on 
>>WP has gotten banned
>>or scrutinized to the point they leave.  We have a
>>concept of respecting 
>>the space of a person
>>who is working on something. 
>>
>>WP 's policies allow a 16 year old with a computer
>>to come in and 
>>disrupt someone else's work and this
>>doesn;t work for us.  Our culture is based on mutual
>>respect, and I 
>>believe WP and Wales operate on the
>>premise people on WP should be the same way.  This
>>has not been the 
>>course followed.  I think WP should
>>continue and we can do hat we need with the content
>>-- off site where 
>>our cultural issues can coexist
>>peacefully. 
>>
>>You wont get many native people editing here due to
>>the way the site is 
>>organized -- respect for others is
>>lacking in the way articles are edited.  It's ok
>>though, we can still 
>>both be successful if we figure out a way
>>to create dual environments where folks can be
>>successful.
>>
>>I am meeting w9ith the tribal council of the Ute,
>>Shoshone, and Unita 
>>Nations on July 18, at 1:30 in Fort Duschene
>>on the machine translations for their Wikipedia, so
>>I am making 
>>excellent progress.  They also expressed a desire
>>to host their content off Wikipedia due to their
>>review of the issues 
>>with how the site works -- its alien to most native
>>cultures.  The Ute's believe their language is
>>sacred and they don't 
>>want non speakers working on it for religious
>>reasons.  You are going to find this is a prevalent
>>attitude among 
>>Native Peoples.  The ute's did not even allow their
>>langauge to be written down until the mid 1970's due
>>to their religious 
>>beliefs, so this is a big step for them.
>>
>>Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>>>On 13/07/06, Jeff V. Merkey
>>>      
>>>
>><jmerkey at wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
>>    
>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>Robert Scott Horning wrote:
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>Jeffrey V. Merkey wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>Oldak Quill wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       
>>>>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Most Wikimedia projects don't translate
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>>"Wikipedia", "Wiktionary", and
>>    
>>
>>>>>>>"Wikimedia", they transliterate them. Even
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>>non-Latin alphabets do
>>    
>>
>>>>>>>this: Russian Wikipedia is called
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>>"Ð'Ð¸ÐºÐ¸Ð¿ÐµÐ´Ð¸ÑZ(" which transliterates as
>>    
>>
>>>>>>>Ve-I-Ka-I-Pe-Ye-De-I-Ya (those are the names of
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>>the letters, at
>>    
>>
>>>>>>>least). Does Cherokee have some kind of formal
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>>transliteration system?
>>    
>>
>>>>>>>On 12/07/06, Jeffrey V. Merkey
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>><jmerkey at wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The name should be:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>á?--áZ(ªá?ªáZ(µ áZ(¦á?£á?"áZ(³
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>(digoweli gatsanula)
>>>>>>>>"the books = pedia " " that are fast = wiki "
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>to match the actual meanings of the words
>>>>>>>>                
>>>>>>>>
>>"wiki" and "pedia".
>>    
>>
>>>>>>>>The current name of the site, while catchy, is
>>>>>>>>                
>>>>>>>>
>>not accurate for the
>>    
>>
>>>>>>>>language, and was synthesized.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Just a suggestion...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Jeff
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>           
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Yes. it does have one for words like this, but
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>taking potshots at the
>>    
>>
>>>>>>name can create something you do not intend.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Let's look at it:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Wi-gi-que-di-ya
>>>>>>
>>>>>>wi  - (negative imperfect past tense)
>>>>>>gi - to combine
>>>>>>que - incomplete verb root about an animal
>>>>>>di - plural for a non living object
>>>>>>ya - broad area of concern (means "pertains to
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>or covers a broad area or
>>    
>>
>>>>>>topic)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       
>>>>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>>While it is interesting some of the points and
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>counter points about this
>>    
>>
>>>>>issue, isn't this something better left to be
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>discussed on project pages
>>    
>>
>>>>>by participants and made as a local decision?  At
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>least I would feel
>>    
>>
>>>>>more comfortable with people who are involved
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>with the development of
>>    
>>
>>>>>the project (aka Cherokee Wikipedia content
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>developers) instead of
>>    
>>
>>>>>getting European or Austrialian attitudes from
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>people who may never even
>>    
>>
>>>>>add a single word to that project.
>>>>>
>>>>>This whole discussion strikes me as something
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>very similar to when the
>>    
>>
>>>>>name Wikipedia itself was coined, along with all
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>of the other major
>>    
>>
>>>>>sister projects and their names.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>There are no participants on the site.   The site
>>>>        
>>>>
>>has been dead for
>>    
>>
>>>>months.  Probably because NONE OF THEM SPEAK
>>>>        
>>>>
>>CHEROKEE.
>>    
>>
>>>>Perhaps best thing is to close the site completely
>>>>        
>>>>
>>and I'll just manage
>>    
>>
>>>>the fork off Wikipedia.
>>>>
>>>>Jeff
>>>>
>>>>Jeff
>>>>_______________________________________________
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>>>>        
>>>>
>>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>>      
>>>
>>>>   
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
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>>    
>>
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