On Dec 5, 2007 9:41 AM, Santiago Becerra Carrillo <sanbec(a)gmail.com> wrote: De acuerdo. Commons no es una enciclopedia. Commons no tiene por pilar el principio de neutralidad. Los principios de Wikipedia aplican únicamente a Wikipedia. Sino ¿cómo justificar Wikiquote, donde todo es opinión? Commons tiene sus propios principios, y el punto de vista neutral no es aplicable

Hi! I have a stupid question: what is principal difference with Leon Trotsky cartoon (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:WhiteArmyPropagandaPosterOfTrotsky.… Should we remove every political cartoon (including WW I/WW II propaganda posters) because these images could be viewed as examples of hate speech? With best regards, Eugene. On Dec 5, 2007 8:13 AM, Rama Rama <ramaneko(a)gmail.com> wrote:

On 05/12/2007, Rama Rama <ramaneko(a)gmail.com> wrote: People who equate Israelis to Jews, Jews to Israelis, and claim that the leader of Israel is the leader of the Jewish people are Zionists. Zionists are themselves racist (the very notion of a racial state (i.e. Israel) is racist) and there are many Jews who oppose Zionism. Zionists often accuse any opponent of Israel as being anti-Semites (a very powerful, emotive term). We shouldn't let the emotion of this term interfere with rational discussion about political cartoons. -- Oldak Quill (oldakquill(a)gmail.com)

Oldak, this is the mailing list of Commons. This is not a political mailing list. Beside the fact that you views of Zionism are simplistic and wrong, it is not the emotions of Zionists that we want to keep out of here, but the emotions of *all* politically-driven people. Be they tenants of the Israeli right-wing and far-right-wing, or their opponents. Pedro and Gizmo, this is a *mailing list*, not a private channel; and it is the mailing list of Wikimedia Commons, which is, indeed, multi-lingual. Meaning that people from all language interact here. If you are speaking to everybody, it is common sense and courtesy to use a lingua franca that everybody understands. If you are not speaking to everybody, it is common sense and courtesy to bring the discussion to some private place where it belongs. -- Rama

No, they are irrelevant. Regardless of my views on the images at hand (and no, I don't think they should be deleted altogether), nobody cares if you think Zionism = racism and it has nothing to do with whether we should or shouldn't keep these images. On Dec 6, 2007 2:32 PM, Oldak Quill <oldakquill(a)gmail.com> wrote: -- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

I agree there is a logical fallacy in the original argument. That, however, is no reason to bring up an irrelevant debate about a hotly disputed topic. I certainly didn't get the suggestion we should disregard the original argument due to it allegedly being racist out of what you said, and I doubt many people did. Either way, I'm sure commons community members will not vote based on racist comments. On Dec 6, 2007 2:55 PM, Oldak Quill <oldakquill(a)gmail.com> wrote: -- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

Minusta ei oikein voi sanoa samalla kertaa, että projekti on monikielinen ja jokainen voi käyttää omaa kieltään, ja että jos ei tule ymmärretyksi omalla kielellään, se on oma vika. Translated: I don't quite think you can, at the same time, say that a project is multilingual and you can use your own language, and that if you are not understood, it's your own fault. -- Ystävällisin terveisin, Samuli Lintula

Which, in turns, involves mass-sending messages to people, knowing that most of them simply cannot be interested. Which comes very short to spamming them. Is it OK to use the Commons mailing list for things which are not of general interest ? I would have though not. -- Rama

I'm sorry if I come across as agressive and disagreable. I agree that Commons is a mutli-lingual and multi-cultural project, and this makes for a lot of the joy it procures me. Multi-lingual does not mean that people all speak several common languages. I means that they speak different, non-compatible languages. Having them understand each other is *more* of a problem, no less of it. However, luckily, there's English, which is widely spoken and understood to at least basic levels. English allows me not only to save the tediousness of reading Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, German, and several other languages that I can understand partially with effort, but also to understand people whose language I do not understand at all, like Arabic, Russian, Chinese. - on the Wiki, "Trotsky" is written "Троцкий". To me this is not a problem, because we have *redirects*. - on the IRC, people can speak several languages, because they frequently engage in person-to-person discussion. In this case, it makes sense to use the language that both people master the best - On the mailing list, on the other hand * there are no redirect or automated translation systems * messages are, per definition, addressed to everybody. In this sense, in my opinion, it makes about as much sense to start using a language that few understand than it would to send encrypted messages for which one single person has the key. Being cautious about exactitude when speaking of political matters is commendable, and I wish that this state of mind was more widespread. However, in this case, it strikes me as evident that non-Spanish speakers will either understand nothing to the message, or understand it with the gross approximations that Santiago Becerra Carrillo seems to keen to avoid. -- Rama

On Wed, 5 Dec 2007, Daniel Schwen wrote: I'm a little out of date with the fair use policy on en.wp (and don't know the policy on other wps), but as I understand it, if there is a Free version available (which if the image was on commons I presume their must be) then the view is that (Wikipedia/the Foundation) cannot claim fair use. If I am correct in this, then if the images have encyclopaedic merit and projects want to inlcudem them, they need to be hosted on Commons. In my opinion, we should not be censoring the Commons or applying double standards to any content by removing material that is offensive to one group of people and not removing content that is offensive to another group of people. Almost every image of a person stands a good chance of offending somebody somewhere, so we should either delete all the images depicting humans or drawings of humans and anything else that offends people or we should allow the inclusion of everything that meets the Commons' inclusion policy (basically, anything useful for a Wikimedia project that can be legally hosted by Commons). Either directly or via the "disclaimers" or "About Wikimedia Commons" links at the bottom of every page, we should make it clear though that Commons is not censored and contains content that may offend. It should also make clear that we do not encourage or support racism, sexism, religious or any other form of discrimination, but that as such discriminations exist, Commons may contain images that depicts them. Chris -- Chris McKenna cmckenna(a)sucs.org www.sucs.org/~cmckenna The essential things in life are seen not with the eyes, but with the heart Antoine de Saint Exupery