[Wikipedia-l] Apropos:moldovia

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Now... I live in Kiev, I am NOT ethnically russian, slavian or whatever, and
I could not care less for anyone's national feelings. Actually I suppose the
NPOV policy should simply BAN anyone even just mentioning them as a decision
criteria. If politics are allowed to be a decision criteria, then you can
expect a LOT of such quarrels coming up. We all have political opinions, and
I cannot think of any country in in this planet that has never had pretty
good reasons for them to feel offended by (at the very least) some of their
neighbouring peoples, religions, cultures, scripts, miniskirts,
trolleybuses, etc. Do you want to open this pandora's box? Go on. Only pls
rename this list into Wikipedia-h (H is for hooligans), because that's what
it's going to be.

So... living here I meet a number of moldavian (not transdnistrian)
residents on the net. Bear in mind, I say *residents* because I simply do
not give a damn about their blood, religion, DNA, etc. And I believe that
nobody should. This people speak BOTH russian and moldavian. Since my use of
rumenian languages is limited (I speak IT-4, which is enough to read most
RO, but definitely not enough to write even just at RO-1), I usually use my
RU-3 with them. And it works perfectly. Now, RU-3 happens to be written in
cyrillic and so are most of their answers, too (just a small number of them
using a latin transliteration). Which in turn means that they either use a
russian interface or type by some sort of charmap.

I read enough *weird* reports about Ukraine at the time of the "orange
revolution" to know how western journalists that come here should be valued.
It really depends on which side of the conflict buys them sex partners, wine
etc. In the most honest cases they sincerely believe to what their
translators tell them, but simply do not have any way for them to check
anything of what they are told. Such western reports have supported all
possible conflicting sides in regional hot spots in the recent past, mostly
because of this. So I'm really asking myself whether the press should be
used as a source, when contemporary politics are even remotely a part of the
issue. Reality is usually much wider and more complex than the canonic 8.000
symbols a redactor is giving to his journalists for them to describe an
event.

I  don't mean to offend BBC's reputation, actually they are one of my
favourite and most reliable news sources. I simply wonder whether the news
*as such* can be used to make a decision at all, no matter what the source.
After some 6 years in eastern Europe I came to understand that most of what
we think of it is simply absurd. It is actually impossible to judge a
foreign culture unless you dont' spend *many* years in it.

>From all practical POVs, moldavians of all kinds do know cyrillic scripting.
This is because of the trade they have with Ukraine and Russia, that are
ONLY using cyrillic script(s). The situation will only get to a further
integration into using cyrillic once Rumenia steps in the EU and more strict
border checking between Rumenia and Moldavia will be in place. Many
moldavian products already bear mixed latin/cyrillic labels for them to be
easily exported here (wine, mainly). The most world wide known moldavian
band (Zdub si zdob, I believe BTW, they are GREAT) made a fortune by singing
(also) russian songs and maintains an internet site in both russian and
moldavian. So it's simply absurd to claim that one of the two scripts (no
matter which one) could be unknown to the locals, who definitely have much
more urgent life problems than writing a wiki, but undoubtedly do trade and
listen to the radio.

Choosing a script or another is mainly a thing at official level, a thing
dealing with politics only. In reality, people will simply use them both, no
matter what the local war games end up in deciding, because BOTH are needed
in practical and economical life, and even the most radical guys need money
to make a living. Same applies to the (many) rumenian minorities in Ukraine.
>From a practical POV having a latin script is nice for bringing people
closer to the undisputable source of the rumenian culture, that is Rumenia.
But on the other hand there are many minorities in Ukraine that never really
had a formal instruction in the latin script (and probably never will), but
still speak some rumenian dialect. And the only script they can manage is
ukrainian and russian cyrillic.

My fivepence worth, because I got to understand that most people in here
simply does not know what the issue is about. And as long as we deal with
facts and information on cold NPOV basis I am happy to help. IMHO the sooner
we manage to detach geopolitics from languages, and get to speak about
content accessibility in instead, the better we will work.

Bèrto

----- Исходное сообщение ----- 
От: "ScottL" <scott at mu.org>
Кому: <wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org>
Отправлено: 4 июля 2006 г. 15:07
Тема: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Where are the decision makers?


   From the BBC article posted way way back on this thread it appears
that the schools for ethnically Moldavian children in Transdniester
actually use the Latin script if they can, and some times they do it
when they are officially being persecuted.  At least that is what the
article said.  As far as I can tell the (non-moldavian speaking) people
in power are trying (unsuccessfully) to impose this script.  Now it
probably is likely older people in the region still use it and its
probably in public use but I am not sure you can say that its in many
schools. At least not to a point where students are learning it to the
exclusion of the Latin based script.

SKL

Mark Williamson wrote:
> It incorrectly represents Moldova? Come on!
>
> Wikipedia uses language as a MEDIUM. If somebody wants to know about
> the language, they would go to
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldovan_language or
> http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldau or whichever language they speak
> article.
>
> They will NOT go to mo.wikipedia.
>
> And you are clearly not in touch with reality. In schools east of the
> Dniestr river, which teach Moldovan, the Cyrillic alphabet is taught.
> This fact is a fact and you cannot contest it. This is the usual
> script.
>
> Now, unless you want to challenge the territorial integrity of
> Moldova, it seems reasonable to accept that Moldova is, in fact, a
> biscriptal nation.
>
> As Gerard noted, mo-cyr is not acceptable because it violates conventions.
>
> Mark
>
> On 04/07/06, Liviu Andronic <landronimirc at gmail.com> wrote:
>> This is what would reasonably happen, Mark. In my opinion, of course.
>>
>> Currently people "give a damn" because it represents incorreclty Moldova.
>> Personally, I cannot stand when my country is represented n'*importe
comment
>> * on Wikipedia.
>>
>> We don't use this writing, Mark. Apart from exceptions, nowhere. This
>> writing, for all areas of life, is a reality of the past. And do not try
to
>> discredit my words stating that "he is not in Moldova". I lived my whole
>> life in Moldova, which makes, roughly, 20 years. I read news. I return to
>> Moldova at least one time per year. I know what happens there. We don't
use
>> this writing. Other Moldovans that are currently in Moldova could easily
>> backup this.
>>
>> If you want to write articles, I have nothing against it. Moving all you
>> have done on mo.wikipedia.org to mo-cyr.wikipedia.org would in no way
>> interrupt your work. And your work would cease disturbing people
>> concerned.
>>
>> But enough on this. Let's see the way the current
>>
vote<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects#Closure_o
f_Moldovan_Wikipedia>on
>> meta ends.
>>
>> On 7/4/06, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Is that a threat?
>>>
>>> Why should anyone "give a damn" now? What reason is there for people
>>> to not just ignore it and work on the Romanian Wikipedia? Really,
>>> there is no good reason. Any good Wikipedian should focus on fixing
>>> articles, writing new articles, etc., instead of fussing about
>>> something like this.
>>>
>>> I just want to write articles, but you and your friends insist on
>>> interrupting.
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>> On 04/07/06, Liviu Andronic <landronimirc at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Everyone will start ignoring it, as soon as the Moldovan Wikipedia gets
>>> out
>>>> of the mo.wikipedia.org domain. No one would give a damn about it.
>>>>
>>>> On 7/4/06, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com > wrote:
>>>>> Would it really make everyone happy?
>>>>>
>>>>> No.
>>>>>
>>>>> There would still be people whinging endlessly that it should be
>>>>> closed and/or deleted.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark
>>>>>
>>>>> On 03/07/06, Liviu Andronic < landronimirc at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> I agree that simple ignoring of this project would make it disappear
>>> in
>>>>> a
>>>>>> one-two year time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What the you do not get is that there is one simple solution: move
>>> mo to
>>>>>> mo-cyr. And everyone gets happy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is this so difficult?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 7/2/06, Gerard Meijssen < gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hoi,
>>>>>>> You do not get it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is an annoyance. One of the points made is that the Moldovan
>>>>>>> wikipedia is just trolling. Consider what makes a troll thrive;
>>>>>>> attention. The more attention that you give it, ANY attention the
>>> more
>>>>>>> it will get entrenched. There is this saying: "I do not care what
>>> they
>>>>>>> say about me as long as they write my name correctly", all this
>>>>>>> attention makes the mo.wikipedia "relevant". If it is not
>>> relevant,
>>>>>>> refrain from giving it attention and at some time it will just
>>>>>>> evaporate. If it does not, it cannot be considered trolling and
>>> you
>>>>> are
>>>>>>> plain wrong.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The best thing for you to do: shut up. Ignore this project.
>>> Everybody
>>>>>>> will be happier and maybe you will be proven to be right.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>     GerardM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Liviu Andronic wrote:
>>>>>>>> I would have to object to the position taken by people who can
>>> make
>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> difference.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> IMHO, all this Moldovan issue annoys you as much as it does me.
>>> I do
>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> want to dispute on this, as much as you do not want to read all
>>> this
>>>>>>> junk.
>>>>>>>> I am wondering if the Moldovan Wikipedia is such unimportant an
>>>>> issue. I
>>>>>>>> agree that it is a rarely used Wikipedia. And still, for an
>>>>> unimportant
>>>>>>>> Wikipedia, it does create a lot of headache to the entire
>>> community.
>>>>> If
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>> issue flames every three months on this mailing list and on all
>>>>> possible
>>>>>>>> Talk pages and triggers revert-wars on related English and
>>> Moldovan
>>>>>>>> Wikipedia articles, then I believe that there is obviously a
>>>>> problem.
>>>>>>>> Not that this entire dispute be fair or ethical - it is a dirty
>>> war
>>>>> that
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> personally detest -, but is it an ethically correct position for
>>>>> those
>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>> can make a difference to just ignore?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is it so unimportant that a whole Wikipedia section could create
>>>>>>> confusion
>>>>>>>> and desinformation? Isn't Wikipedia supposed to provide a "free
>>>>>>> encyclopedia
>>>>>>>> of the highest possible quality"?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Personally for me, it is strange how people with the ability to
>>> take
>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> implement a decision, simply choose to ignore. All possible and
>>>>>>> impossible
>>>>>>>> arguments were already presented here, on the mailing list, and
>>> all
>>>>> over
>>>>>>>> the English and Moldovan Wikipedia, and on Metawiki. What rests
>>> to
>>>>> do is
>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>> common sense to decide on this issue.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is even stranger for me the way a decision already taken by
>>>>> stewards
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> bureaucrats was simply ignored and not implemented.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But, then, it is up to the decision-makers to decide the stance
>>> to
>>>>>>> adopt. I
>>>>>>>> still hope that they will choose as soon as possible to stop
>>>>>>> deliberately
>>>>>>>> ignoring this issue. The problem is that this issue will not
>>> cease
>>>>>>>> re-appearing on this mailing-list. My reason for this is that an
>>>>> entire
>>>>>>>> country and population (this makes an approximate 3.5 million
>>>>> persons)
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> incorrectly represented on Wikipedia. And one of these, or me -
>>> if
>>>>> no
>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>> else does it -, will certainly re-open this discussion in a
>>>>> two-three
>>>>>>> months
>>>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you managed to read till this point, thank you.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Liviu
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 6/30/06, Brion Vibber < brion at pobox.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jacky PB wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Where are the decision makers? Isn't there nobody
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No one else is interested in this issue, and getting involved
>>> would
>>>>>>> mean
>>>>>>>>> wasting
>>>>>>>>> a lot of time with people fighting a lot over something
>>>>> unimportant.
>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>> safest
>>>>>>>>> course is thus to leave a rarely-used wiki sitting there, same
>>> as
>>>>> we do
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> dozens of other rarely-used wikis and nobody minds.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Wikipedia-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>>>>>>>>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Wikipedia-l mailing list
>>>>>>> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>>>>>>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Liviu
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Wikipedia-l mailing list
>>>>>> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>>>>>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikipedia-l mailing list
>>>>> Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org
>>>>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Liviu
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikipedia-l mailing list
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>>>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikipedia-l mailing list
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>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Liviu
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikipedia-l mailing list
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>>
>
>
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