[Wikipedia-l] Re: banning

Fri Oct 24 06:02:49 UTC 2003

From: Tim Starling <ts4294967296 at hotmail.com>

>> > I do not think it is necessary that you switch
off the
>> procedure Tim, as I know what french people will
vote.

>14 vs 1.

you forgot the abstention :-)

However, most said they wanted it only with a clear
procedure and rules. And a log. It is not clear
whether people are favorable to "punishment" in case
of abuse. It seems some fear sysops will never dare
blocking if there is a risk of punishement afterwards.

Interesting. No power should ever go without personal
responsability in case of power abuse. I know that it
will be a veto case for me if there is no possibility
to do anything in case of abuse. The fact we trust
current sysops can not be automatically extended in
the future.

Aoineko says "For me, if the blocked logged/annonyme
have any solution to contact other wikipedians and
contest the blocking, and if any other admin can
un-block logged/annonyme, there are no risk of a
abuse."

I think he is thinking that anything reversible has no
impact on spirit. No consequences. Such as when
someone is put in jail for 6 months because of an
juridical error. If the trial shows he is innocent,
and released, nothing happened; there was no abuse
whatsoever.

I agree reversible is the main thing. I object to the
"there is no abuse".

[fr:]
Aoineko. Je pense que tu sous estimes l'impact
psychologique d'un blocage, ou de tout situation
d'exclusion, même temporaire. Ce n'est pas le fait de
relacher un innocent après coup qui efface d'un coup
de baguette magique l'impression d'être exclu. Et le
fait de reconnaitre une erreur après coup également, a
ces limites en termes de responsabilité. Toute
personne qui a un pouvoir, quel qu'il soit, doit être
capable de se justifier, doit accepter de reconnaitre
ses erreurs, et doit être prête à les assumer. Toi,
moi, Chirac (enfin, dans le meilleur des mondes). Il
ne doit pas y avoir pouvoir sans controle de pouvoir
et sans pouvoir retirer le dit pouvoir à celui qui en
abuse.
Cela ne veut pas dire que cela sera pratiqué, mais en
cas de besoin, et pour l'avenir, c'est nécessaire à un
bon équilibre. 

-------

I have no idea which french word could have been
translatd in club-footer :-(

Would the log appears in recent changes when it is
modified ?

> > I would really would like that
> * the log feature is done, so tracking of who ban is
> available for public consideration
> * a system is made possible to warn people that a
> loggued in user has been banned (could it be a
message
> at the top, or an automatic email, or automatic
update
> of a visible banning log ?)
> * that on the message displayed to the banned user,
> the adress of the mailing list appears, and that the
> message sent be automatically approved by the
emailer
> (perhaps could it be a wikimail to the mailing list)
> and this whether the user has a valid email address
or
> not
> * that any first blocking be initially programmed to
> expire after a certain number of hours
> * perhaps that a specific page on wikipedia is made
> editable even by a loggued in user, for wikipedia
> communication. The banned user could not edit any
page
> but this one. 
> > These are propositions.
> I think english people can handle blocking better
than
> we can, with less risk of abuse.
> But since we have not your safeguard, I think we
need
> other tools to avoid slipping.

See my comment on the bistro. Expiry times are easy,
the log is in the 
dev branch. If you have a proposal for a message which
is displayed to 
blocked users, I suggest you put it in the
fr:Wikipédia namespace, like 
I did with [[en:Wikipedia:You have been blocked]].
Soon (when the CVS 
branches are next merged), the message displayed will
be directly 
editable by any French administrator, or by any user
if you choose to 
unprotect it. The other suggestions are certainly nice
ideas, but they 
will take time to implement. We have to prioritise.

-- Tim Starling.

[en:]
Ok, thank you Tim. As you said in your other messages,
you and Jimbo wished this use would be limited to
vandals, reincarnations of ban users.

I similarly hope it will not be used to censor people,
to threaten others, to deal with problematic users, to
manage edit wars.

And we both know how our wishes go :-(

[fr:]
Aoineko, je débloquerais tout utilisateur qui sera
bloqué pour des actes autres que vandalisme pur et
dur.  En particulier lorsque l'utilisateur sera
provoqué par d'autres éditeurs. 

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