[WikiEN-l] Tacit acceptance of harassment

Sat Aug 30 03:27:49 UTC 2003

OK, let me see if I can do this without making things worse...

At 07:40 PM 8/29/2003, you wrote:
>A very sick man has now created a dozen Wikipedia pages
>dedicated to abusing me.  (Yes, I know I previously said
>that EntmootsOfTrolls had created six, but his latest list
>is much longer. He is still creating more, even though that
>is hard to believe.)

It's not hard to believe, he obviously has something against you.

>Yet your communal response?  Anthere starts attacking me,
>and James Duffy starts ranting about "the boy who cried
>wolf", and denies that serious amounts of Jew baitiing
>exists - in the midst of some of the most serious
>anti-Semitic slander Wikipedia has seen.

Well, you seem to have missed the people in the community calling for EoT 
being banned. You also may have missed the point of James' message which 
was not that Jew-baiting does not exist, but that he was concerned that 
your frequent (not just in this instance) accusations of anti-semitism may 
cloud the issue when actual anti-semitism does rear its ugly head.

>Entmoots non-stop talk about Jews, Zionpedia, questining me
>about hwo I follow Leviticus, claiming that I am not a Jew,
>and whining about how Zionists control this place is a very
>clear thing: This is anti-Semitic harassment. For someone
>to look at this and deny it is a sign that they ar
>stupid...or anti-Semitic themselves.

I don't really understand your logic here. EoT is not obsessed with Jews. 
He's obsessed with YOU. I don't see why you can't understand how a person 
who isn't an anti-semite or an idiot could have the opinion that EoT's 
remarks (while facially anti-semitic, obviously) aren't ABOUT being 
anti-semitic, but are ABOUT pissing you off. Now, I'm not condoning them, 
in fact, I think he's gone so far that he's reached the level of bannable 
offenses. But I don't appreciate your sweeping generalizations about anyone 
who disagrees with you. I don't see how that helps anything.

>Would we allow similar statements about women, gays,
>blacks, Hispanics, etc?  Nope.
>
>And right now Stevertigo slanders most Wikipedians as
>"philo Semites"...and in response some people do nothing,
>yet only respond that I am lying or imagining things when I
>object to the blatant anti-Semitic Jew-baiting?

Stevertigo did absolutely nothing of the sort. Read his original post, 
Vicki's response, and then Stevertigo's reply to her response. The reason 
people did nothing is that nothing untowards happened. He was talking about 
the attitude that some people have, not about his opinion or about any 
specific Wikipedians. I don't think you're maliciously being misleading 
here, I just think that in your frustration you may be not reading text as 
closely as you ought.

>Huh? If that action on your part isn't Jew-baiting itself,
>then nothing is.
>
>Stevertigo and EntmootsOfTrolls are the ones making the
>most outrageous attacks. However, they are only a few
>people, out of thousands of Wikipedia.  It is not them I am
>worrying about. Rather, it is the rest of you self-who
>don't see a problem with this that I am worried about.

Well, you should be worried about the ones making the attacks (although I'm 
not really aware of what Stevertigo has done). Let me be blunt, RK, many 
people on Wikipedia don't like you. Lest you take that the wrong way, it 
has nothing to do either with your status as a Jewish person or your 
position on anti-semitism. It has to do with your attitude towards fellow 
Wikipedians and your general demeanor. Perhaps there are people who "don't 
see a problem" because they know that EoT isn't trying to attack Jews, just 
you. If they don't like you, they may not have a problem with that. But 
then, I'm not qualified to go judging peoples' reasons for things.

>If I wrote that your tolerance of writing about black
>subjects makes you "nigger lovers", isn't that racist, and
>grounds for an immediate ban?  Sure.  But when people like
>Stvertigo and EntmootsOfTrolls write things exactly like
>this about the Jews, you blame the victim, deny that
>anti-Semitism exists, slander me, and then refuse to ban
>trolls.  That's either hypocritical (at best) or a tacit
>admission that deep down inside you really don't have a
>problem anti-Semitism.

RK, you are really starting to go far afield here. I've already dealt with 
your mistaken opinion of Stevertigo's email above, but let me add something 
else.Trolls get banned all the time. EoT will probably be banned soon. 
Screaming about how nobody is doing anything except blaming you (which 
isn't true, by the way) DOES NOTHING TO HELP THE SITUATION.

I challenge you to back up your assertion above. Show us all where we deny 
that anti-semitism exists. RK, you gain nothing but more enmity when you 
cast invective on countless Wikipedians who do not deserve it.

>And on a related topic, EntmootsOfTrolls has also created a
>dozen Wikipedia article dedicated to harassment, has done
>things that would get a dozen other users banned
>immediately, but narly all of you are still protecting him.
>
>Your tacit acceptance of harassment is shameful, and a
>violation of everything this project stands for.

I had almost forgotten about this until now. Your repeated use of "shame" 
really isn't wise. It's a loaded word that is bound to generate nothing but 
defensiveness from those you wish to help you. Not for nothing, RK, but 
IMHO it is highly inappropriate for you to dictate to others what they 
should or should not be ashamed about. All of us have consciences and most 
of us act as dictated by our consciences. The fact that, despite numerous 
attempts to illucidate the situation to you, you CONTINUE to insist that 
everyone is against you and that it's all because of some vast anti-semitic 
conspiracy (conspiracy here is my word, not yours, but I feel that's what 
you're implying) is really unfortunate.

It seems that you are not willing to pay attention to all the information 
that is available, but instead choose to "cherry-pick" in order to support 
your chosen position. If I were you, I might call that "shameful".

>Please stop writing posts about how good and tolerant you
>all are, and about how the only problem is that I "am
>crying wolf".  Coming from people who are blind to
>anti-Semitism in a very blatant form, I just can't take
>your words seriously at all.

Here is what puzzles me most. If you truly think all these things about all 
of us, why are you here? Why write a letter and then close with the 
assertion that our words are meaningless to you? And, lest you take the 
above as a veiled request for you to leave, it's not. I'm just confused. I 
trust that, since you're still here, you believe that there is something 
good and useful in this community and project. I just can't reconcile that 
with your words above. RK, you are digging yourself a very deep hole out of 
which I'm not sure you'll be able to climb.

RK, whether people like you or not is really irrelevant. It seems that most 
of us are, at the very least, willing to accept you. That should be enough. 
And, quite frankly, you HAVE cried wolf in the past. How long ago was it 
that you thought that JT was an anti-semite and had to publicly apologize 
because you decided you were mistaken? Have you changed your mind again? Is 
he an anti-semite again? THIS is what is meant by crying wolf. You cannot 
just accuse people (who may have honest disagreements with you) of being 
anti-semites just because you don't like their position and then expect 
people to care. I'm sure that there are people who haven't even bothered to 
look up the history of you and EoT because they assume that it's a bogus 
argument because of all your false claims in the past.

In closing, please don't take anything I've said as an attack, it REALLY 
hasn't been intended that way. What I'm trying (let's hope it succeeded) to 
do is show you how other people may be thinking of the situation. I really 
believe that if you can calm down long enough to open yourself up to other 
peoples' viewpoints, not everyone may seem quite so very much against you.

For what it's worth, I hope you stay and continue contributing positively 
to the 'pedia, and that harassment of all users by all other users could be 
stopped promptly and effectively in the future.

-----
Dante Alighieri
dalighieri at digitalgrapefruit.com

"The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their 
neutrality in times of great moral crisis."
    -Dante Alighieri, 1265-1321