First, excuse my intrusion into this.
I am very pleased to learn that there are people on Wikipedia that
addresses this
issue in its entirety.
In all government and non-governmental, there is this big problem of
transcription. Some opt for the original character for reasons of
authenticity, one for Latin transcription for technological reasons.
Personally, I opt for co-existence of two transcripts and it is duty of the
Berbers to take steps to design interfaces transcription. Give everyone the
opportunity to discover the richness of the language several thousand years.
Regarding Wikipedia, I wonder if there is a nuisance on the co-existence of
two transcription, like that we would give people more chance to
participate.
Cordially.
2011/12/9 Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>
Hoi,
When you send it to me, it will be forwarded to the language committee.
The big problem with not having a code for a language is that the material
will not be tagged in this way and consequently not be found on the
Internet. What can be done is using a code like ber-Latn-x-standard or
ber-Tfng-x-standard to indicate the language. Consequently it is VERY
important to expedite a resolution in this. Yes, when you have sufficient
documentation YOU can ask for a language code.. (contact me off-list).
As there is a case to be made for a separate language code, it will likely
not be possible to get a code that is part of IETF (a typical either or
situation).
thanks,
Gerard
On 8 December 2011 21:14, Tussna . <tussna(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hoi Gerard,
Thanks a lot for your quick reply.
Yes, Berber consists of about 25 dialects/languages, divided across 10
North African and Saharan countries.
But most of the Berber-speakers (~90%) and Berber publications are
concentrated in Morocco and Algeria, (smaller numbers in Libya, Niger,
Mali...).
I just didn't want to go too much in detail in my e-mail. Of course, all
Berber dialects and sub-cultures are equally worthy of preservation and
development.
In fact, a lot of words and neologisms included in Standard Berber come
from or are based on words from smaller isolated Berber dialects in the
Sahara (especially Tuareg Berber), because they have been preserved
there.
An important thing to understand is that "Standard Berber" is not being
created by the governments.
This is not some Esperanto-type of language.
Standard Berber is a collective effort of writers, linguists, educators,
and (since a decade ago) schools and some universities and institutes, in
which local varieties are integrated into a functioning standard language
worthy of being used in mainstream media and education.
In other words: it is not an artificial / created language. It is a
standardized form of the dialects, encompassing all dialectal synonyms
and
variations while putting them in a standardized
spelling and style.
Applying for an ISO 639-3 code for Standard Berber / macro-language is
the
obvious solution. But it takes a huge amount of
time and bureaucracy. And
those guys that regulate the codes are not great communicators.
A friend of mine (very busy with Berber) has been talking to SIL about
all
this for some time now. And he tells me that it
is going to take a lot of
time to get the code.
So I was hoping for the "wriggle room" you mentioned to get this through.
There is a good amount of documentation in standard Berber: dictionaries,
government school books from Morocco and Algeria, grammar studies on
standard Berber, recently published children's stories, manuals...etc.
And
there are 2 Berber-language TV channels in
Morocco and Algeria
broadcasting
a lot of material in pretty much standrdized
Berber (especially news
programs).
I am very sure that when the language committee examines the
documentation,
they will be convinced of Standard Berber and of
the viability of the
Wp/ber project.
Could you please tell me where (or to which persons) exactly should I
send
the request and the documentation?
Thanks a lot.
Best regards,
Moubarik Belkasim
On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:28 PM, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
> Hoi,
> There are several issues at play. First off, Berber as a macro language
> consists of in total 25 languages.These languages are not only spoken
in
> Morocco and Algeria. Having one language
created by government(s)
subsume
> all 25 languages and cultures is a bit
much.
>
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=57-16
>
> The language policy does not allow for created languages and it does
not
differentiate between the reasons for the creation of a language.
The language committee assesses for the Wikimedia board what the merits
are
> for a proposal for a new language. It has some wriggle room but
typically
it
chooses not to make exceptions. It would help when the language
committee is provided with some documentation that this Berber language
is
> taught in schools in both countries. This would offset the issue of it
> being a constructed language quite a bit.
>
> It would probably not be hard to convince ISO to add a language code
for
> this Berber language. Not hard because there
is governmental support
for
this.
Thanks,
Gerard
On 8 December 2011 16:09, Tussna . <tussna(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hoi iedereen / Hi all,
I've been reading your e-mails on Ahirani Wikipedia creation. And I
wanted
> to raise questions about the Berber Wikipedia project: *Wp/ber*
>
> The proposal for a Berber Wikipedia (with the code: *ber*, *ISO 639-2
and
> ISO
> 639-5*) was rejected a while ago because Berber doesn't have an ISO
639-3
> > code. Although, it does have ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-5.
> >
> > The Wikipedia board argued that Berber "is not a language but is a
> language
> > group".
> >
> > The fact is: it is both.
> >
> > The Wikipedia board advised to start multiple Berber Wikipedias for
the
>
dozen of Berber dialects which do have ISO 639-3 codes (like Wp/rif,
> Wp/shi, Wp/kab, and Wp/tzm). Some call them "languages" because they
have
> > the ISO codes and thus have the status of "language".
> >
> > But the motivation is low for the Berber dialects. Now the Berber
> language
> > (in its unified standard form) is official in the Moroccan
constitution
> and
> > is recognized as a national language in Algeria's constitution, and
is
>
taught in both countries' schools, there is a solid basis for
considering
> it a language (not just a scholarly group of
languages/dialects).
>
> So my questions are:
>
> -How do we convince the Wikipedia board to reconsider the Wp/ber
project
> and approve it?
>
> -What about the option of "macro-language"?
>
> For example, the Arabic Wikipedia (which is written in a standard
Arabic
> > language that nobody really speaks in daily life) is based on the
> > "macro-language" approach, eventhough there are tens of Arabic
dialects
> > (Egyptian Arabic, Iraqi Arabic, Saudi
Arabic...), each one with its
own
> ISO
> > 639-3 language code.
> >
> >
> > There is a lot of motivation and enthusiasm for the unified Berber
> language
> > on Facebook and elsewhere.
> >
> > I personally know at least 5 people who can contribute to the Wp/ber
> > project on a regular basis.
> >
> > The only thing that hinders them is the rejection of Wp/ber
> >
> > The Berber language is written using the Latin alphabet in Algeria
and
the
Tifinagh (indigenous) alphabet in Morocco.
I think it could be a double-alphabet Wikipedia like the Kurdish
Wikipedia
or the Serbian Wikipedia, where the same content
is automatically and
identically available in two alphabets.
This is the link for the Wp/ber project:
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/ber/Tasna_Tamezwarut
In the following PDF link, you'll find an example of a standard
pan-Berber
specialized dictionary (published by Moroccan and
French linguistic
institutes):
http://www.ircam.ma/doc/publica/vocabulaire_grammatical.pdf
It's a Berber - English - French - Arabic dictionary of linguistics
terminology.
Best regards,
Moubarik Belkasim
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