Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 14:09:09 +0100 From: thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com To: wikimediauk-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Solicitors - Request for recommendations 2008/9/18 Chris Wood <hot20024(a)hotmail.com>om>: Yeah, I was looking at that before I sent the email and found it less than helpful. Solicitors seem to lack useful websites giving simple things like fees in an easy to find place... _______________________________________________ Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l(a)wikimedia.org http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 15:01:43 +0100 From: thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com To: wikimediauk-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Solicitors - Request for recommendations 2008/9/18 Chris Wood <hot20024(a)hotmail.com>om>: We're looking for advice (desirable, but not essential) and someone to sign off on the application (a legal requirement). The former we may be able to get for free (as you say, you can usually get 30 minutes free advice, although I don't know if that applies to corporate matters), the latter I would expect we need to pay for whoever we get (it involves writing something down - I believe that almost always results in a fee). Since we need someone to sign the application, we may as well try and make it someone that can offer useful advice as well. Also, we're likely to require legal advice at some point in the future (WM DE have been sued what, 4 times so far? And that's just issues that have actually gone to court), so it would be good to have a professional to turn to and not need to find one in a hurry. We can afford reasonable set up costs, the board can fund them out of their own pockets and get reimbursed out of the first membership fees. We have 28 people interested in being supporting members. Assuming half of them actually sign up and a membership fee of £10 (both conservative estimates), that's £140 straight off. I think the application itself costs £30, that leaves £110 to pay a solicitor - hopefully there will even be something left over for travel expenses (I'm just guessing what they're likely to charge - none of their websites seem to include minor details like costs...). I'm happy to sub the chapter £140 for the few months it will take to get the fees in. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l(a)wikimedia.org http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l

We're looking for advice (desirable, but not essential) and someone to sign off on the application (a legal requirement). The former we may be able to get for free (as you say, you can usually get 30 minutes free advice, although I don't know if that applies to corporate matters), the latter I would expect we need to pay for whoever we get (it involves writing something down - I believe that almost always results in a fee). Since we need someone to sign the application, we may as well try and make it someone that can offer useful advice as well. Also, we're likely to require legal advice at some point in the future (WM DE have been sued what, 4 times so far? And that's just issues that have actually gone to court), so it would be good to have a professional to turn to and not need to find one in a hurry. We can afford reasonable set up costs, the board can fund them out of their own pockets and get reimbursed out of the first membership fees. We have 28 people interested in being supporting members. Assuming half of them actually sign up and a membership fee of £10 (both conservative estimates), that's £140 straight off. I think the application itself costs £30, that leaves £110 to pay a solicitor - hopefully there will even be something left over for travel expenses (I'm just guessing what they're likely to charge - none of their websites seem to include minor details like costs...). I'm happy to sub the chapter £140 for the few months it will take to get the fees in.

On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 10:08 AM, Sam Korn <smoddy(a)gmail.com> wrote: As a matter of general caution, I would suggest you not rely on this offer as your only means for success. Try your damndest to secure your own monies for this first, before asking the WMF for aide.

If it comes down it to it, we can always go cap in hand to the WMF, yes, but I think if we need to there's a problem. If the chapter can't do enough fundraising to cover it's setup costs in a reasonable amount of time and reimburse the board, then we need to reconsider the whole thing. If we need to go to the WMF for setup costs, where are we going to get the money to actually do anything?

someone to sign off on the application (a legal requirement).

2008/9/18 Alison Wheeler <wikimedia(a)alisonwheeler.com>om>: "Form 12 This is the declaration of Compliance with the Companies Act 1985 in respect of the registration. Once the Memorandum and Articles of Association (see below) have been completed, this must be signed in the presence of a Solicitor, Commissioner for Oaths, Notary Public or Justice of the Peace." (http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/infoAndGuide/companyRegistration.shtml) Is that what you mean by "the Swears"? I have no idea what it costs, having never done it before, but it requires going to a solicitor, which is what I'm talking about (perhaps "sign off" wasn't the best choice of words, but they have to sign the application). If we're going to visit a solicitor (and presumably give them money), it might as well be a solicitor than can actually advise us.

It is always possible someone here know someone (directly or indirectly) that will be qualified and willing to do it for free...

2008/9/18 Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com>om>: Nope. One of the reasons I've been bringing up the geographical issue a lot is that realistically were are unlikely to be able to cover travel expenses in the first few years. If you are not in the same city as the other board memebers you could end up racking up say £200 in travel costs.

On Thu, 2008-09-18 at 18:05 +0100, geni wrote: Few years? How many face to face meeting are you anticipating, and how little in terms of income do you expect the organisation to get (assuming it get through setting up etc. okay to last a few years)? KTC

That's an extremely pessimistic outlook. Why are you bothering to take part if that's what you think? If we can't make any money in the first year, how will we make it in future years? And if we're not making any money, what's the point in having a chapter? We won't be able to do anything we couldn't do now.

On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 5:21 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com> wrote: That is, I think, a bit of a pessimistic view as well. Money isn't everything, and much of what you will get out of the chapter is prestige. You'll be able to go into a school or university or government building and say "I represent Wikimedia UK and I would like to work together with you for the benefit of open content and open education". It sure beats saying "I go on Wikipedia some days after work, can I take some pictures of your stuff to put on the internet?". Don't rely too much on money, some of your most creative ideas might stem from a lack of it.

If that's all you want, we can do it in five minutes. We just need to set up an association (which is far easier than forming a limited company), get a quick agreement set up with the WMF and we're done. You don't even really need that - "I'm a Wikipedia admin" opens quite a few doors if you're careful not to explain what that really means.

2008/9/18 geni <geniice(a)gmail.com>om>: £50? oooh. Where? (I have two boxes of photos I intend to put up on Commons.)

On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 5:21 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton(a)gmail.com> wrote: That is, I think, a bit of a pessimistic view as well. Money isn't everything, and much of what you will get out of the chapter is prestige. You'll be able to go into a school or university or government building and say "I represent Wikimedia UK and I would like to work together with you for the benefit of open content and open education". It sure beats saying "I go on Wikipedia some days after work, can I take some pictures of your stuff to put on the internet?". Don't rely too much on money, some of your most creative ideas might stem from a lack of it. --Andrew whitworth _________________

Actually, you should be ready for it and start thinkng about cool projects to channel donations asap.

On Fri, September 19, 2008 09:46, Delphine Ménard wrote: This. We we were just starting to get WMUK going a year or two back we were approached by the Charities Aid Foundation completely out of the blue. They act as intermediaries between donors small and large and the organisations the donors want to give to. Though we were given no details at all of what might be on offer to us we tried very hard to get the bank to be in a position to cash their cheque we couldn't and, in the end, I believe the WMF got involved instead and I heard no more about it. I've talked with more than a few business leader types about what they could do for/with WMUK. Just don't think small ... Alison _______________________________________________ Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediauk-l(a)wikimedia.org http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l