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Plautus

All sensible people v. Plautus...

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Martin Harper

25 Feb 2004 25 Feb '04

10:55 p.m.

Arno M wrote:

When will something be done?

Brian Corr wrote:

Could someone give an update on a timeline for action?

Something will be done about Plautus when you do something about Plautus. The timeline for action on Plautus is roughly: 1) You decide to act. 2) You act. Perhaps you meant to ask a different question? -Martin

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Anthere

26 Feb 26 Feb

7:43 a.m.

Martin Harper a écrit:

Arno M wrote:

When will something be done?

Brian Corr wrote:

Could someone give an update on a timeline for action?

Something will be done about Plautus when you do something about Plautus. The timeline for action on Plautus is roughly: 1) You decide to act. 2) You act.

I liked your answer But...I have another question Some people think that something should be done about Lir. Question they ask : When will something be done ? Answer they received from UserA : * There is no problem with user Lir. So, you have no problem ====> Answer of the type : your opinion is irrelevant Answer they received from UserB : * We are busy thinking about the matter. Please be patient, do not do anything, we'll fix the problem for you, that is our job ====> Answer of the type : please, hold on, you are not in charge, we are in charge. Go back to your own business --------- Still, nothing happen --------- What they do 1) They decide to act. 2) They act. Answer they received from UserC * Your action was incorrect. You are out of the game. Next time, refer to suggestion of UserB instead of trying to decide and act by yourself. ------- Comment from Anthere When general guidelines are inconsistant, and that half of people say ''you are in charge, take charge'' and the half say ''do not do anything, those who have responsability here will take care of the matter for you'', is there proper consistancy in our message ? The vaccum cleaner hole is more than a hole. People just do not know, whether they should refer to a group of user from now on to fix their problems Or if they should manage to deal with problems themselves ------- So, yes, that is a good answer, but at least people from the arbitration committee should be consistant in their answer, to those of us who are wondering what action power we still hold. At least, to know whether your answer, Martin, is the correct one, or the incorrect one. (I can have my own answer, but I suppose I would be the one to find myself in front of arbitration if I applied it, so will I dare ?)

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Anthere

7:47 a.m.

Oh, in case that was unclear, I have no problem with Lir myself. I rather like her :-) Anthere a écrit:

Martin Harper a écrit:

Arno M wrote:

When will something be done?

Brian Corr wrote:

Could someone give an update on a timeline for action?

Something will be done about Plautus when you do something about Plautus. The timeline for action on Plautus is roughly: 1) You decide to act. 2) You act.

I liked your answer But...I have another question Some people think that something should be done about Lir. Question they ask : When will something be done ? Answer they received from UserA : * There is no problem with user Lir. So, you have no problem ====> Answer of the type : your opinion is irrelevant Answer they received from UserB : * We are busy thinking about the matter. Please be patient, do not do anything, we'll fix the problem for you, that is our job ====> Answer of the type : please, hold on, you are not in charge, we are in charge. Go back to your own business --------- Still, nothing happen --------- What they do 1) They decide to act. 2) They act. Answer they received from UserC * Your action was incorrect. You are out of the game. Next time, refer to suggestion of UserB instead of trying to decide and act by yourself. ------- Comment from Anthere When general guidelines are inconsistant, and that half of people say ''you are in charge, take charge'' and the half say ''do not do anything, those who have responsability here will take care of the matter for you'', is there proper consistancy in our message ? The vaccum cleaner hole is more than a hole. People just do not know, whether they should refer to a group of user from now on to fix their problems Or if they should manage to deal with problems themselves ------- So, yes, that is a good answer, but at least people from the arbitration committee should be consistant in their answer, to those of us who are wondering what action power we still hold. At least, to know whether your answer, Martin, is the correct one, or the incorrect one. (I can have my own answer, but I suppose I would be the one to find myself in front of arbitration if I applied it, so will I dare ?)

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Fred Bauder

11:48 a.m.

New subject: Where the Power Lies

I think the way you hold power in your own hands it that you, who are in contact with the problem, can initiate the conflict resolution procedure, beginning with talking to the party, asking for mediation, then arbitration. The arbitration committee (who if they are careful, are not in contact with the situation, at least not slugging it out) can if a case comes to us, rather rapidly decide a matter and prescribe a remedy. (A week or two is very rapid indeed in this context, even hasty). Fred Bauder, member of the arbitration committee

From: Anthere <anthere8(a)yahoo.com> Reply-To: anthere8(a)yahoo.com, English Wikipedia <wikien-l(a)Wikipedia.org> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 08:43:36 +0100 To: wikien-l(a)wikipedia.org Subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Plautus Martin Harper a écrit:

Arno M wrote:

When will something be done?

Brian Corr wrote:

Could someone give an update on a timeline for action?

Something will be done about Plautus when you do something about Plautus. The timeline for action on Plautus is roughly: 1) You decide to act. 2) You act.

I liked your answer But...I have another question Some people think that something should be done about Lir. Question they ask : When will something be done ? Answer they received from UserA : * There is no problem with user Lir. So, you have no problem ====> Answer of the type : your opinion is irrelevant Answer they received from UserB : * We are busy thinking about the matter. Please be patient, do not do anything, we'll fix the problem for you, that is our job ====> Answer of the type : please, hold on, you are not in charge, we are in charge. Go back to your own business --------- Still, nothing happen --------- What they do 1) They decide to act. 2) They act. Answer they received from UserC * Your action was incorrect. You are out of the game. Next time, refer to suggestion of UserB instead of trying to decide and act by yourself. ------- Comment from Anthere When general guidelines are inconsistant, and that half of people say ''you are in charge, take charge'' and the half say ''do not do anything, those who have responsability here will take care of the matter for you'', is there proper consistancy in our message ? The vaccum cleaner hole is more than a hole. People just do not know, whether they should refer to a group of user from now on to fix their problems Or if they should manage to deal with problems themselves ------- So, yes, that is a good answer, but at least people from the arbitration committee should be consistant in their answer, to those of us who are wondering what action power we still hold. At least, to know whether your answer, Martin, is the correct one, or the incorrect one. (I can have my own answer, but I suppose I would be the one to find myself in front of arbitration if I applied it, so will I dare ?) _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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Rick

4:33 p.m.

New subject: Where the Power Lies

That's ridiculous. TWO WEEKS? When a logged-in user is causing chaos and an attempt by anyone to do something about it will lead to THEIR being banned or having their sysop privileges taken away? That is NOT hasty, that's molasses slow. I see no reason why anything more than three days is necessary. RickK Fred Bauder <fredbaud(a)ctelco.net> wrote: I think the way you hold power in your own hands it that you, who are in contact with the problem, can initiate the conflict resolution procedure, beginning with talking to the party, asking for mediation, then arbitration. The arbitration committee (who if they are careful, are not in contact with the situation, at least not slugging it out) can if a case comes to us, rather rapidly decide a matter and prescribe a remedy. (A week or two is very rapid indeed in this context, even hasty). Fred Bauder, member of the arbitration committee

From: Anthere Reply-To: anthere8(a)yahoo.com, English Wikipedia Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 08:43:36 +0100 To: wikien-l(a)wikipedia.org Subject: [WikiEN-l] Re: Plautus Martin Harper a �crit:

Arno M wrote:

When will something be done?

Brian Corr wrote:

Could someone give an update on a timeline for action?

Something will be done about Plautus when you do something about Plautus. The timeline for action on Plautus is roughly: 1) You decide to act. 2) You act.

I liked your answer But...I have another question Some people think that something should be done about Lir. Question they ask : When will something be done ? Answer they received from UserA : * There is no problem with user Lir. So, you have no problem ====> Answer of the type : your opinion is irrelevant Answer they received from UserB : * We are busy thinking about the matter. Please be patient, do not do anything, we'll fix the problem for you, that is our job ====> Answer of the type : please, hold on, you are not in charge, we are in charge. Go back to your own business --------- Still, nothing happen --------- What they do 1) They decide to act. 2) They act. Answer they received from UserC * Your action was incorrect. You are out of the game. Next time, refer to suggestion of UserB instead of trying to decide and act by yourself. ------- Comment from Anthere When general guidelines are inconsistant, and that half of people say ''you are in charge, take charge'' and the half say ''do not do anything, those who have responsability here will take care of the matter for you'', is there proper consistancy in our message ? The vaccum cleaner hole is more than a hole. People just do not know, whether they should refer to a group of user from now on to fix their problems Or if they should manage to deal with problems themselves ------- So, yes, that is a good answer, but at least people from the arbitration committee should be consistant in their answer, to those of us who are wondering what action power we still hold. At least, to know whether your answer, Martin, is the correct one, or the incorrect one. (I can have my own answer, but I suppose I would be the one to find myself in front of arbitration if I applied it, so will I dare ?) _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

_______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail

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Anthere

6:03 p.m.

New subject: Where the Power Lies

Any accusee has the right to be heard for defense in the real world. This takes time. In France, it can take years. 2 weeks is a minimum :-) When there is very strong suspicion of crime, he can be maintained in jail before the trial actually occur. Rick a écrit:

That's ridiculous. TWO WEEKS? When a logged-in user is causing chaos and an attempt by anyone to do something about it will lead to THEIR being banned or having their sysop privileges taken away? That is NOT hasty, that's molasses slow. I see no reason why anything more than three days is necessary. RickK Fred Bauder <fredbaud(a)ctelco.net> wrote: I think the way you hold power in your own hands it that you, who are in contact with the problem, can initiate the conflict resolution procedure, beginning with talking to the party, asking for mediation, then arbitration. The arbitration committee (who if they are careful, are not in contact with the situation, at least not slugging it out) can if a case comes to us, rather rapidly decide a matter and prescribe a remedy. (A week or two is very rapid indeed in this context, even hasty). Fred Bauder, member of the arbitration committee

From: Anthere Reply-To: anthere8(a)yahoo.com, English Wikipedia Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 08:43:36 +0100 To: wikien-l(a)wikipedia.org Subject: [W ikiEN-l] Re: Plautus Martin Harper a écrit:

Arno M wrote:

When will something be done?

Brian Corr wrote:

Could someone give an update on a timeline for action?

Something will be done about Plautus when you do something about Plautus. The timeline for action on Plautus is roughly: 1) You decide to act. 2) You act.

I liked your answer But...I have another question Some people think that something should be done about Lir. Question they ask : When will something be done ? Answer they received from UserA : * There is no problem with user Lir. So, you have no problem ====> Answer of the type : your opinion is irrelevant Answer they received from UserB : * We are busy thinking about the matter. Please be patient, do not do anything, we'll fix the problem for you, that is our job ====> Answer of the type : please, hold on, you are not in charge, we are in charge. Go back to your own business --------- Still, nothing happen --------- What they do 1) They decide to act. 2) They act. Answer they received from UserC * Your action was incorrect. You are out of the game. Next time,

refer

to suggestion of UserB instead of trying to decide and act by

yourself.

------- Comment from Anthere When general guidelines are inconsistant, and that half of people say ''you are in charge, take charge'' and the half say ''do not do anything, those who have responsa bility here will take care of the matter for you'', is there proper consistancy in our message ? The vaccum cleaner hole is more than a hole. People just do not know, whether they should refer to a group of user from now on to fix their problems Or if they should manage to deal with problems themselves ------- So, yes, that is a good answer, but at least people from the

arbitration

committee should be consistant in their answer, to those of us

who are

wondering what action power we still hold. At least, to know whether your answer, Martin, is the correct one, or the incorrect one. (I can have my own answer, but I suppose I would be the one to find myself in front of arbitration if I applied it, so will I dare ?) _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

_______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you Yahoo!? Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mailtag_us/*http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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Rick

27 Feb 27 Feb

3:05 a.m.

New subject: Where the Power Lies

So where is the Wikipedia jail? Right now, the accuseds are allowed to continue what they were doing, willy-nilly. RickK Anthere <anthere8(a)yahoo.com> wrote: Any accusee has the right to be heard for defense in the real world. This takes time. In France, it can take years. 2 weeks is a minimum :-) When there is very strong suspicion of crime, he can be maintained in jail before the trial actually occur. Rick a �crit:

That's ridiculous. TWO WEEKS? When a logged-in user is causing chaos and an attempt by anyone to do something about it will lead to THEIR being banned or having their sysop privileges taken away? That is NOT hasty, that's molasses slow. I see no reason why anything more than three days is necessary. RickK Fred Bauder wrote: I think the way you hold power in your own hands it that you, who are in contact with the problem, can initiate the conflict resolution procedure, beginning with talking to the party, asking for mediation, then arbitration. The arbitration committee (who if they are careful, are not in contact with the situation, at least not slugging it out) can if a case comes to us, rather rapidly decide a matter and prescribe a remedy. (A week or two is very rapid indeed in this context, even hasty). Fred Bauder, member of the arbitration committee

From: Anthere Reply-To: anthere8(a)yahoo.com, English Wikipedia Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 08:43:36 +0100 To: wikien-l(a)wikipedia.org Subject: [W ikiEN-l] Re: Plautus Martin Harper a �crit:

Arno M wrote:

When will something be done?

Brian Corr wrote:

Could someone give an update on a timeline for action?

Something will be done about Plautus when you do something about Plautus. The timeline for action on Plautus is roughly: 1) You decide to act. 2) You act.

I liked your answer But...I have another question Some people think that something should be done about Lir. Question they ask : When will something be done ? Answer they received from UserA : * There is no problem with user Lir. So, you have no problem ====> Answer of the type : your opinion is irrelevant Answer they received from UserB : * We are busy thinking about the matter. Please be patient, do not do anything, we'll fix the problem for you, that is our job ====> Answer of the type : please, hold on, you are not in charge, we are in charge. Go back to your own business --------- Still, nothing happen --------- What they do 1) They decide to act. 2) They act. Answer they received from UserC * Your action was incorrect. You are out of the game. Next time,

refer

to suggestion of UserB instead of trying to decide and act by

yourself.

------- Comment from Anthere When general guidelines are inconsistant, and that half of people say ''you are in charge, take charge'' and the half say ''do not do anything, those who have responsa bility here will take care of the matter for you'', is there proper consistancy in our message ? The vaccum cleaner hole is more than a hole. People just do not know, whether they should refer to a group of user from now on to fix their problems Or if they should manage to deal with problems themselves ------- So, yes, that is a good answer, but at least people from the

arbitration

committee should be consistant in their answer, to those of us

who are

wondering what action power we still hold. At least, to know whether your answer, Martin, is the correct one, or the incorrect one. (I can have my own answer, but I suppose I would be the one to find myself in front of arbitration if I applied it, so will I dare ?) _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

_______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you Yahoo!? Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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Reply

Delirium

3:13 a.m.

New subject: Where the Power Lies

Rick wrote:

So where is the Wikipedia jail? Right now, the accuseds are allowed to continue what they were doing, willy-nilly.

To summarize the matters currently under consideration: * Plautus Satire is currently temp-banned for a week pending a decision in his case, as Jimbo did so, and there was significant consensus that this should be done. * Irismeister was banned for 3 days or so, but is currently unbanned, and his case is being considered. He is not currently temp-banned pending review partly because it seems we have no good way of deciding when there's a consensus to do so, besides Jimbo doing it, and partly because it's a lot easier for him to add material in his defense to the pages where we ask him to add such material if he's not banned. * Wik was banned by various users for various periods, and is currently unbanned, and his case is being considered. He is not currently temp-banned pending review because there is no consensus that his behavior is worthy of censure---the comments at [[Wikipedia:Matter_of_Wik#Statements_by_others]] are 4 in favor of banning him, 3 opposed to banning him, and 1 neutral. -Mark

Reply

Fred Bauder

3:54 a.m.

New subject: Where the Power Lies

For a brief period, unless what are doing is truely egregious. I think we are moving toward a policy of using temporary restrictions in the case of the most damaging and disruptive behavior as was applied in the case of Plautus Satire who is temporarily banned. We could also use temporary restrictions on number of edits once that is coded. Fred From: Rick <giantsrick13(a)yahoo.com> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l(a)Wikipedia.org> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 19:05:12 -0800 (PST) To: anthere8(a)yahoo.com, English Wikipedia <wikien-l(a)Wikipedia.org> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Where the Power Lies So where is the Wikipedia jail? Right now, the accuseds are allowed to continue what they were doing, willy-nilly. RickK

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Fred Bauder

4 a.m.

New subject: Where the Power Lies

These folks need access in order to defend themselves as a general rule, only the most disruptive can be temporarily banned without making the arbitration very unfair indeed. Fred

From: Delirium <delirium(a)rufus.d2g.com> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l(a)Wikipedia.org> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 19:13:28 -0800 To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l(a)Wikipedia.org> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Where the Power Lies it's a lot easier for him to add material in his defense to the pages where we ask him to add such material if he's not banned.

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Anthere
Delirium
Fred Bauder
Martin Harper
Rick