You can make an *item* on Wikidata, no problem.
But if you try to make a corresponding *article* on en-wiki, people will
fold it into a list.
So it would be good for the *item* on Wikidata to point to the
*redirect* that is permitted on en-wiki.
-- James.
On 16/10/2014 12:54, Jane Darnell wrote:
I don't understand why you can't make an item
for each character or each
person in a band. As long as you have a valid reference (IMDb? Book? out of
my league here) you can make an item for anything
On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Jan DudÃk <jan.dudik(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> There is one big field, where redirects make sense: lists (of
> characters) or members of bands
>
> *Rob Bourdon (Q19205) have article in 38 languages. There is also part
> of article de:Linkin_Park, which is about him and [[de:Rob Bourdon]]
> is redirect.
> *Character X from tv series Y is not notable enough to have separate
> article, but it should have own item on wikidata. And there is article
> about him in some small wiki. When you search , you found that there
> is one article, but fifteen redirects to section (List of Y
> characters#X)
> *Fred Weasley (Q13359612) have one sitelink (to redirect), but
> informations are in en, cs, fr, es, it, pt, pl, da and others too. But
> when I want to find relevant articles, I must try each language
> separate. With alowed redirects, I find it.
>
> JAnD
>
> 2014-10-16 11:06 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell <jane023(a)gmail.com>om>:
>> With a view to supporting mobile, why bundle concepts needlessly into
> large
>> articles? Why not split them out and use the typical Wikipedia blue link
>> methodology to link them together? Some of the English Wikipedia articles
>> are very unwieldy on mobile and you need to scroll through lots of stuff
> to
>> get the information you are looking for. In the case you are describing
>> however, I find the article rather short and I can't even see any
> reference
>> to the occupation of hatmaker at all unless you are referring to a list
> of
>> notable hatters and milliners (which also seems rather short).
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 10:40 AM, James Heald <j.heald(a)ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> We have the relevant information on :en in "hatmaking".
>>>
>>> Why create a stub? Why require the duplication?
>>>
>>> Surely it is for client wikis to decide how they want to treat topics,
>>> either in a big omnibus article, or in a lot of little articles -- that
> is a
>>> decision for them.
>>>
>>> But we should be helping readers moving from one language to another to
>>> find the nearest equivalent in that language -- no matter whether in
> that
>>> language it is a small part of a large article, or a separate article
> in its
>>> own right.
>>>
>>> -- James.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 16/10/2014 09:29, Jane Darnell wrote:
>>>>
>>>> James,
>>>> I totally agree with Gerard and I totally disagree with you. The fact
>>>> that
>>>> the English Wikipedia does not have an article on "hatmaker" is
not
>>>> something that Wikidata should support, and the energy you are wasting
>>>> with
>>>> your talk about redirects could better be spent on making a stub for
>>>> "hatmaker" on the English wikipedia.
>>>> Jane
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 9:34 AM, James Heald <j.heald(a)ucl.ac.uk>
> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I am sorry, Gerard, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood
what
> I
>>>>> am
>>>>> saying.
>>>>>
>>>>> To be clearer:
>>>>>
>>>>> * Noting that a link goes to a redirect is a feature of the
*sitelink*
>>>>> not
>>>>> the item.
>>>>> * It is no more "Wikipedia centric" than noting that a link
goes to a
>>>>> featured article in some language, or any other badge.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not proposing items be introduced for "new things that
do not
> exist"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's take an example, from Project Chat recently.
>>>>>
>>>>> * "Hatmaking" is a real-world concept that exists. We have
an article
>>>>> on
>>>>> it in English Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmaking
>>>>>
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q663375
>>>>>
>>>>> * "Hatmaker" is a real-world concept that exists. We have
an article
>>>>> on it on lots of Wikipedias.
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q18199649
>>>>>
>>>>> The two concepts are not the same. One is a skill, the other is an
>>>>> occupation. They have a P425 / P na relationship.
>>>>>
>>>>> It therefore would not make any sense to add "Hatmaking" as
a label to
>>>>> the
>>>>> "Hatmaker" item.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> At the moment, there is no sitelink to :en: defined for
"Hatmaker".
>>>>>
>>>>> What would make sense would be to sitelink to the redirect page
>>>>>
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hatmaker&redirect=no
>>>>> with a badge, noting that this was a sitelink to a redirect page.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> At the moment, there is no sitelink to wikis other than :en: defined
> for
>>>>> "Hatmaking"
>>>>>
>>>>> What would make sense would be to create redirects on these wikis,
>>>>> linking
>>>>> to their articles on "Hatmaker", and then add sitelinks to
the
>>>>> "Hatmaking"
>>>>> item, pointing to these redirects in each of the languages.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To give another example:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Commons, we have a creator page for the engraver Daniel Havell,
>>>>>
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Creator:Daniel_Havell
>>>>> which ought to be made to draw from a Wikidata item for the
engraver.
>>>>> (cf
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Template:Creator/wrapper/test for
>>>>> tests)
>>>>>
>>>>> On en-wiki, there is no separate article for Daniel Havell. Instead
>>>>> there
>>>>> is a redirect,
>
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Daniel_Havell&
>>>>> redirect=no, which points to a section of an article on the Havell
>>>>> family:
>>>>>
>
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Havell_family#Daniel_Havell
>>>>>
>>>>> Wikidata should have an item on Daniel Havell, which points to this
>>>>> redirect.
>>>>>
>>>>> That way, when the Creator template on Commons wants a link target
on
>>>>> :enwiki, the Wikidata item can supply it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As I said, Gerard, I think you misunderstood what I was talking
about.
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope it is clearer and makes more sense to you now.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> All best,
>>>>>
>>>>> James.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 16/10/2014 06:15, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hoi,
>>>>>> I seriously fail to see how an example how Wikidata can be abused
is
> a
>>>>>> good
>>>>>> thing. Redirects are imho seriously stupid. They are utterly
> Wikipedia
>>>>>> centric and they introduce new things that do not exist.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - a redirect page to three pages is also called an
> disambiguation
>>>>>> page..
>>>>>> We do support them. They are not redirects.
>>>>>> - when a redirect page refers to an article by another
name, it
>>>>>> only
>>>>>> takes a label to add the needed link to the subject
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Seriously WHY ARE WE EVEN TALKING ABOUT THIS?
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> GerardM
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 14 October 2014 23:22, James Heald <j.heald(a)ucl.ac.uk>
wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Creating sitelinks to redirects:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As I understand it, the classic workaround for this is to
>>>>>>> * go to client wiki,
>>>>>>> * edit the page temporarily so that it is not a redirect
>>>>>>> * add a sitelink
>>>>>>> * edit the page again to turn it back into a redirect.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thus, at least as I understand it, there is no overwhelming
> technical
>>>>>>> barrier to creating a sitelink to a redirect.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Looking back through the archives of Project Chat, it seems
to be a
>>>>>>> perennial thing that we ought to permit sitelinks to
redirects, eg
>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>> recently at
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat#Should_
>>>>>>> all_occupations_be_separate_items_from_their_skills.3F
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> which led to Kaldari filing Bugzilla: 71859
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But I'm not quite sure exactly what he wants solved, if
sitelinks to
>>>>>>> redirects are /already/ possible. (Albeit requiring the
slightly
>>>>>>> roundabout process above).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perhaps what is needed is just a concerted RfC, to confirm
once and
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> all that it is indeed the community view that such sitelinks
are
>>>>>>> useful,
>>>>>>> and should be created.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But there are a couple of things it would be nice to have,
to
> confirm
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> practice:
>>>>>>> * A badge (eg the letter R on a red disc) to indicate that
the
>>>>>>> sitelink
>>>>>>> to language xx is linking to a redirect, not a primary
article.
>>>>>>> * On an item, a new property "redirected to",
taking another item
> as
>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>> object, and the identity of the wiki as a qualifier.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> After that, we should go out creating this redirects on
client wikis
>>>>>>> en
>>>>>>> masse, and site-linking them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This would solve a huge number of issues we currently have,
where
> wiki
>>>>>>> A
>>>>>>> has lots of little articles, whereas wiki B has the same
content all
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> sections of one article; or where wiki A and wiki B have
chosen
>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>> primary items for their treatment of a field. (For example:
the
>>>>>>> profession
>>>>>>> 'hatmaker' or the activity 'hatmaking').
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Allowing and encouraging sitelinks to redirect is the key to
> keeping a
>>>>>>> clean item structure on Wikidata, while still connecting
readers to
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> most relevant pages in their preferred alternative
languages.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- James.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 14/10/2014 21:00, Jane Darnell wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> nope
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 6:23 PM, Smolenski Nikola <
> smolensk(a)eunet.rs>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Citiranje Jane Darnell <jane023(a)gmail.com>om>:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2) There is no way of making an interwikilink for
a redirect,
> and
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> German Wikipedia's "afrikanische
Pflaume" is currently a redirect
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> "Prunus"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You should still be able to make an interwiki link
for a redirect
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> old
>>>>>>>>> way,
>>>>>>>>> are you not?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>
>>