Hi,
On 6/6/21 1:02 PM, Leon Haanstra wrote:
Thank you for the information Platonides. So, summarizing the events so
far. There was a transfer to mailman 3 without consulting any local
communities.
I don't know what kind of consultation you wanted, but I think
<https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T52864> tells the story pretty well.
It's been just about 8 years since this was asked for and I'm not aware
of a single person who didn't want to upgrade Mailman.
Arguments like "a more modern look" and
"convenience" were
used.
Well yes, but the main reason was actually security.
<https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T118641> explains the flaws in MM2.
We only discovered some major security/privacy issues in our MM2 setup
because we started working on the migration.
The upgrade came and the persons responsible for the
upgrade did
so without fully releasing that there might be downsides or negative
side effects.
Mailman3 is easily better than Mailman2 *overall*, but it's certainly
not perfect. Some key features are worse, missing, or broken. We've
asked people to file bugs and report issues to us when they encounter
them, but it's taking a while to get through everything because the list
keeps growing. We don't send email announcements every time we fixed
something because that would be pretty spammy!
When people come forward with issue's regarding
the
upgrade not understanding what the issue is, the response is, take it up
with Hotmail, the issue surely can't be the mailman upgrade. Microsoft
should fix their stuff and if not, it's your problem.
It wasn't my intention to suggest that, sorry if it came across that way.
My take is that Mailman is sending emails that the user legitimately
signed up for, and Hotmail is *bouncing* them back rather than marking
them as junk or something else. I don't think Hotmail is doing the right
thing there, but I think it's clear something changed on the Mailman3
side that triggered this change in Hotmail's treatment of our emails.
But at the same time I feel pretty limited in debugging problems with
the CheckUser-l mailing list. There are no archives I can look at, I'm
not a subscriber who gets copies of emails, and I don't want to add any
logging to capture bounce messages in case they do have
private/confidential data. The next Mailman version will send the raw
bounce message to the listadmin (per
<https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/-/issues/908>) which should give us
some more info, but it's not super straightforward for me to patch our
installation with, I'm still looking into that.
So for now the only suggestion I have is to reach out to Hotmail...or
disable bounce processing.
Maybe we missed some setting in the migration? I'm not sure, more eyes
are always appreciated, really. I and Amir and others who've already
spent time on this are committed to getting this issue fixed, and we've
already been doing so ever since we started the MM3 migration.
I enjoy working on mailing lists because I recognize how important they
are to the movement, but it's pretty demotivating to just read "oh you
didn't consult the communities" as a reason this shouldn't have been
done when that's blatantly false.
HTH,
-- Kunal