[Wikipedia-l] Request for creation of Dutch-Low Saxon (nds-nl)

Sun Jun 26 10:51:46 UTC 2005

Hi,

Thanks for the replies! It is kind of true what Ron/Waerth say, there are
issues with the orthography, on one of my dialect sites I use a common
orthography for Low Saxon (AS; Algemene Schryvwyse), but some people in
the Netherlands/Germany won't understand that, unless you tell them how
it works. Dutch Low Saxon people now don't really go to the Low Saxon
Wikipedia because they don't understand it and prefer to use the Dutch
one instead, which is quite understandable because the Nds site looks
more like German to us than Nds.

I've reconstructed the Low Saxon mainpage in my dialect for you to see
how it looks and see what the problems are with it. (http://nds.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bruker:Servien/Heufdpagina).

(Mark: I've already put some articles in my dialect on the Nds.wikipedia
but most people don't understand that, so that's actually a waste.)

Regards,
Servien Ilaino!

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Mark Williamson"
  To: wikipedia-l at wikimedia.org
  Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Request for creation of Dutch-Low Saxon
  (nds-nl)
  Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 22:20:35 -0700

  >
  > For more on Missingsch, please see
  > http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missingsch or
  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missingsch
  >
  > Mark
  >
  > On 25/06/05, Mark Williamson wrote:
  > > From Rohn.
  > >
  > > And he *is* a native speaker.
  > >
  > > Mark
  > >
  > > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
  > > From: R. F. Hahn
  > > Date: 25-Jun-2005 21:41
  > > Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Request for creation of Dutch-Low
  Saxon (nds-nl)
  > > To: Mark Williamson
  > >
  > > --- Mark Williamson wrote:
  > >
  > > > (forwarded to Reinhart (Ron) Hahn to get his opinion)
  > > >
  > > > [Some basic background on the issue for Ron: As you know there
  is
  > > > already a Low Saxon Wikipedia. Somebody just requested a "Dutch
  Low
  > > > Saxon" Wikipedia, complaining that nds.wiki is in "German Low
  Saxon".
  > > > I expressed a few concerns, not least among them that in a case
  of a
  > > > dialect continuum, it will be difficult for us to decide where
  to draw
  > > > lines between varieties, and which varieties should get their
  own
  > > > Wikipedias.]
  > > >
  > > > Concerns that nobody has responded to yet:
  > > >
  > > > * As I noted before, it is a dialect continuum. Stellingwarfs
  and
  > > > Middel-pommersch are surely not easily mutually intelligible,
  but
  > > > Grunnegers and Oostfreesk very well should be.
  > > >
  > > > * Dividing Platt along national boundaries is illogical. If we
  had an
  > > > Oostfreesk Wikipedia, Grunnegers-speakers would surely
  understand it
  > > > and vice-versa, even though Grunnegers is in the Netherlands
  and
  > > > Oostfreesk is mostly in Germany. There are no definite borders
  between
  > > > one and the next, and the national border is just as arbitrary
  as any.
  > > >
  > > > This would also mean that a man from the tiny village of Laar
  (in
  > > > Germany) would use a different Wikipedia than a man from the
  tiny
  > > > village of Gramsbergen (in the Netherlands), even though
  they're about
  > > > 4km (~2.5mi) apart and their speech is identical. Does this
  make much
  > > > sense?
  > > >
  > > > * A case of a dialect continuum is a very new thing for us. We
  have no
  > > > experience with it so far, or we have crammed them all into a
  single
  > > > Wikipedia.
  > > >
  > > > Mark
  > >
  > > Hi, Mark!
  > >
  > > Thanks for forwarding this. It all makes a lot of sense to me.
  > >
  > > I would find it very regrettable if the language were separated
  along the
  > > political border, though I know quite a few people that would
  welcome it.
  > >
  > > In the case of Low Saxon, what is at the root of the problem is
  > > orthography. In Germany it is based on German principles, in the
  > > Netherlands on Dutch principles. While most people in the
  Netherlands
  > > have some German, the Dutch-based system is quite
  incomprehensible to the
  > > majority of people in Germany. However, this is not to say that
  the
  > > German-based system ought to be used. I personally hate it for
  several
  > > reasons, and I am not alone. It is not emotional but because the
  system
  > > is very poorly suited, does not make many necessary phonemic
  distinctions
  > > and thus teaches learners faulty pronunciation, which it has done
  already.
  > > However, this is a very contentious issue, because the vast
  majority of
  > > Low Saxon speakers are older, conservative and narrow-minded,
  plus
  > > uneducated in anything linguistic, hanging on to myths and false
  > > assumption, such as orthographic standardization being designed
  to
  > > artificially created a single standard language, when
  orthographic
  > > standardization has nothing to do with language standardization,
  only with
  > > facilitating mutual reading comprehension. So we are up against a
  monster
  > > here.
  > >
  > > It doesn't help that language competency is wanting in the
  current
  > > WikiPlatt team. Those folks are enthusiastic, and I laud that.
  But they
  > > don't know the language well enough. Much or most of it is
  "Patentplatt"
  > > (based on Missingsch), i.e. invented on the basis of German. I am
  not at
  > > all opposed to introducing technical neologisms, but there needs
  to be
  > > first of all a firm grasp of the basic language, the grammar and
  the
  > > authentic idiom.
  > >
  > > It would be best -- if doable -- to have an international team
  work on
  > > this and use a type of compromise orthography that is easily
  accessible to
  > > all.
  > >
  > > Thanks for your engagement in all of this.
  > >
  > > Regards,
  > > Ron
  > >
  > > Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn
  > > Seattle, USA
  > > ==========
  > > I do not open unexpected or unexplained attachments.
  > > Ich öffne keine unerwarteten oder unerklärten Beilagen.
  > > Ik maak keen Bilagen apen, vun de ik niks afweten do.
  > > Ikj moak kjeene Bieloge op, von dee ikj nuscht weete do.
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  > > Não abro arquivos anexados de origem desconhecida.
  > > Je n'ouvre jamais les annexes qui ne sont pas annoncées ou
  décrites.
  > > &#1071; &#1085;&#1077;
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  > > &#1085;&#1080;&#1082;&#1072;&#1082;&#1080;&#1077;
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  > >
  > > --
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  MATERIAM
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  > >
  >
  >
  > --
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