[WikiEN-l] Exit Interview -- Jon Awbrey

Tue Jun 20 18:26:28 UTC 2006

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Matt Brown wrote:
> 
> On 6/20/06, Jon Awbrey <jawbrey at att.net> wrote:
> > when i started out, i called a spade a spade.
> > things that any mature adult, not to mention
> > trained scholar, would call obvious vandalism,
> > manifest disruption, uninformed statements, or
> > malformed citation are things that i described
> > in precisely those terms.  and all i got was
> > one dire warning after another that you just
> > aren't allowed to say those sorts of things.
> 
> I'd agree here that 'No Personal Attacks' gets over-used at times;
> used to stifle criticism of edits, which it should not.  I haven't
> looked at the specific examples of disputes you've been involved in,
> however.
> 
> Which is not to say that one should be impolite, but one should be
> allowed to be accurate.
> 
> -Matt

I don't like making assertions that I'm not sure about,
and so I've been waiting for more data to develop, but
one of the problems that I've been alluding to here is
that it's gotten where we can't really be sure anymore,
and may no longer have the resources to find out, when
a supposed "newbie" really is a new user, and just how
many ID's, IP's, and ISP's a given (ab)user is capable
of arranging these days.

So I guess I'll just try, in a very provisional way, to illustrate
the general sort of near-worst-case scenario that could already be
happening with the details of a concrete case that I happen to be
familiar with.  Here is the data of a 3RR charge that was levied
against me, which will be easier to read at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR#User:Jon_Awbrey_reported_by_User:GeePriest

===[[User:Jon Awbrey]] reported by User:[[User:GeePriest|GeePriest]]===

[[WP:3RR|Three revert rule]] violation on {{Article|Philosophy of mathematics}}. {{3RRV|Jon_Awbrey}}:

* Previous version reverted to, if applicable: [http://http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Philosophy_of_mathematics&oldid=57946848 23:02, 10 June 2006]

* 1st revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Philosophy_of_mathematics&diff=58160721&oldid=58160574 05:44, 12 June 2006]
* 2nd revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Philosophy_of_mathematics&diff=58161742&oldid=58161103 05:54, 12 June 2006]
* 3rd revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Philosophy_of_mathematics&diff=58166105&oldid=58164770 06:37, 12 June 2006]
* 4th revert: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Philosophy_of_mathematics&diff=58166640&oldid=58166273 06:42, 12 June 2006]

* I have warned the user per [[WP:3RR]]. '''[[User talk:Voice of All|Voice-of-All]]''' 08:40, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

====Discussion====

JA: There is some kind of problem with the initial link given above.  It should be this one:

:* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Philosophy_of_mathematics&oldid=57946848 Revision as of 23:02, 10 June 2006]

JA: [[User:Voice of All]] (VOA) posted the following notice on [[User Talk:Jon Awbrey]]:
<blockquote>
'''Regarding reversions[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Philosophy_of_mathematics&action=history] made on [[June 12]] [[2006]] to [[Philosophy of mathematics]]'''

Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly. If you continue, you may be [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked]] from editing Wikipedia under the [[Wikipedia:Three-revert rule|three-revert rule]], which states that nobody may [[Wikipedia:revert|revert]] an article to a previous version more than three times in 24 hours. (Note: this also means editing the page to reinsert an old edit. If the ''effect'' of your actions is to revert back, it qualifies as a revert.) Thank you. '''[[User talk:Voice of All|Voice-of-All]]''' 08:44, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
</blockquote>

JA: Just got in from travelling, so I will discuss this situation tomorrow.  [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 02:22, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

JA: I subsequently posted the following message on [[User Talk:Voice of All]]:
<blockquote>
'''Revert War at [[Philosophy of Mathematics]]'''

JA: Dear VOA, If you check the edit history and the old WQA's, you will see that I had until yesterday been voluntarily observing a zero revert policy and repeatedly begging for community help with [[User:JJL]]'s practice of automatically mass deleting my contributions. So, thanks a lot for all your help. Insert <ironicon> here. Traveling for a few days, so radio slience until then. [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 12:50, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
</blockquote>

JA: I fully sympathize with fact that WP Admins are an overworked and no doubt sleep-deprived bunch, but let me just suggest a few of the things that WP Admins might think to check before acting on a report of this type.  

* I do not know if Admins routinely review the edit history links that they post in these actions, but let's now examine the instigating edit of the revert war that ensued, namely, this one:

* [[User:JJL]], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Philosophy_of_mathematics&diff=prev&oldid=58160204 05:39, 12 June 2006 "Perennial questions - rm self-indulgent babble"].

JA: It is clear from this that the initial edit by [[User:JJL]], accompanied by a derisive statement in the edit line, consisted in the mass unjustified deletion of an entire section of the article.  I stipulate to the fact that it was inadvisable of me to indulge in repeated reverts, but it was late (1:45 AM) where I was, I was no doubt just a bit sleep-deprived, and JJL's edit line was not just false but inflammatory.  All of my subsequent reverts were to the same point, simply attempting to remedy what I personally consider to be a type of vandalism, whether anybody else calls it that or not, namely, the mass unjustified deletion of good faith and fully cited text.  [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 13:30, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

JA: [[User:JJL]]'s habitual practice of automatically reverting or deleting any contribution that JJL did not personally authorize, and the personal attacks that JJL resorted to whenever challenged about this conduct, have been the subject of my repeated entreaties on the WQA noticeboard, as shown here:

* [[User:Jon Awbrey]], [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts/archive5#21_May_2006 Wikiquette Alerts 21 May 2006]

<blockquote>
'''21 May 2006'''

* Desperately seeking constructive guidance at [[Philosophy of mathematics]] beginning [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Philosophy_of_mathematics&diff=54212379&oldid=54206376 here] on the proper use of {Verify} and {Drmmt} tags, what to do about a user who automatically reverts or deletes new material before beginning his own edits, proper application of [[WP:VERIFY]], [[WP:ATTACK]], etc. 15:34, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

* Addendum. I thought that a ''modus vivendi'' had been reached, but apparently not. One user continues to act as the self-appointed judge and jury of every contribution, but mostly just executioner. Some guidance, please. Thanks, 20:56, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

* Update. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Philosophy_of_mathematics&diff=54847600&oldid=54841170 Reference point]. Continuing personal attacks. Nobody who knows my efforts in WP is justified in charging me with trolling or vandalism. Please, help. 11:56, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
</blockquote>

JA: Needless to say, since no hint of moderation from the WP community came in answer to these pleas, the very same practices by JJL continue unmoderated to the present day.  [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 15:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

JA: Another thing that WP Admins might think to check, besides the dossier of the defendant so thoroughly put on exhibit above, would of course be the dossier of the other user or users involved a revert war, and also the dossier of the accuser, in this case, [[User:GeePriest]].  Having done so, a wide-awake WP Admin might well ask:  "What sort of Ostensible Newbie is to be found on the second day of his tenure in WP reporting other editors on Adminstrative Noticeboards?  It's time for my lunch, so I will leave you for a while to contemplate your most likely hypothesis.  [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 15:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

JA: I will forego further comment on some of the above issues pending a promised investigation of Puppet Attacks on a number of related pages.  But there is one further sticking point that I would like to set the record straight about.  

JA: The notice that [[User:Voice of All]] posted here and on my talk page is carefully worded, of course, and I realize that it comes from using a standard boiler-plate, but it implicates [[User:Voice of All]] in a misleading insinuation, at least, one that an unfamiliar reader passing by my talk page might be misled by.  Specifically, the charge that I "Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly" might lead people to think that I have no respect for other editors' work, when the fact is that all I did was to revert the mass unjustified deletion of article content.  Thank you, [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 18:12, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

JA: By way of clarification, I am not suggesting that JJL was engaging in puppeteering, merely that the entry of a 2-day old ''bona fide'' newbie on this noticeboard seems to be an event of rather low probability.  I have been collecting data on this problem at the following location:  [[Talk:Charles_Peirce#Last week I couldn't even spell "CONCENSUS", and today I are one]].  Thanks, [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 21:46, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

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inquiry e-lab: http://stderr.org/pipermail/inquiry/
wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/user:Jon_Awbrey
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