[WikiEN-l] Re: Announcing a policy proposal

Mon May 16 16:44:51 UTC 2005

The argument of AD vs. CE is probably the most ridiculous one i've seen so
far. What next - Will [[Gingerbread Man]] be made [[Gingerbread Person]] to
not upset the gender equality pushers? Or how about renamed Wikipedia to
Wikipédia to not upset heavily pro-French language-ists? Just about
everything can be made POV in one way or another.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Geoff Burling" <llywrch at agora.rdrop.com>
To: "Skyring" <skyring at gmail.com>; "English Wikipedia"
<wikien-l at Wikipedia.org>
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 5:17 PM
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Announcing a policy proposal


> On Mon, 16 May 2005, Skyring wrote:
>
> > On 5/16/05, Pete/Pcb21 <pete_pcb21_wpmail at pcbartlett.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Ultra-short summary of previous debates:
> > >
> > > Pro-CE) AD = "Year of Our Lord" thus is POV. Use CE.
> > > Pro-AD) No AD is more widely used and WP is not a vehicle for advocacy
> > > for change, so stick to AD.
> > > Pro-CE) But that is ignorance. We should be correct and neutral, not
> > > sheep-followers of the majority.
> > > Pro-AD) I am not Christian nor ignorant, but still use AD as the
> > > "standard". Adovacy is a bigger POV problem than origins of common
terms
> > > being POV.
> >
> > The horse has long bolted. CE has been common usage for decades in an
> > expanding circle of groups, most notably those of science or academia.
> >
> > The Christians trying to contain the infection are as ultimately
> > risible as the French trying to keep their language pure by opposing
> > terms such as "le weekend". Christian belief is something that comes
> > from the heart, not from strict adherence to the display of symbols.
> >
> > The "standardists" may have a better moral case, but I see them as
> > like those who grew up with the Imperial system of measurement and
> > staunchly resist the metric system because they aren't used to the
> > terms. Oddly enough, within the British Commonwealth these same people
> > didn't have any problem in grasping decimal currency after conversion
> > from pounds, shillings and pence. If they *really* have a problem with
> > BCE rather than BC, then the standardists are picking the smallest of
> > nits.
> >
> > CE/BCE is already a standard in many disciplines. Make it so in WP.
> >
> And here we can see several reasons why this proposal stirs up so much
> resistance.
>
> * The assertion that because the style "CE/BCE" is "common usage", it
> should be exclusive usage. A confusion of categories: is there any proof
> that if an academic or scientist uses the style "AD/BC", that the
> editor will change it or reject the submission? (A glance at my copy of
> the MLA Handbook only discusses how to use both correctly -- although
> it does discourage use of the once hallowed "ibid." & "op. cit.")
> * That usage amongst certain groups -- i.e., academics -- is preferable
> to usage amongst other groups. Appeal to authority: I would hope that
> if academics have unamimously embraced this style, that there are a
> number of readily-available -- & published essays -- that eloquently
> & convincingly explain why one style is preferable to another.
> * That the only people who would resist using this style do so for
> reasons of faith. A straw man argument: I prefer "AD/BC" over "CE/BCE"
> because that was the style that I felt was the most authentic for me.
> I am currently not a member of any religion, although at one point in
> my past I did embrace neo-paganism.
> * That the style "CE/BCE" is universally embraced except for a few
> implictly out-of-fashion groups. Assertion without proof: I was not
> aware that the of "AD/BC" has gone the way of isenglas & mimeograph
> printing.
>
> I suspect many people who defend the use of "AD/BC" tend towards emotional
> arguments because they are not familiar with how to make meta-lingusitic
> arguments -- which I admit is difficult to do, & harder to do well.
> In effect, we who prefer that style are being told we are wrong & are
> accused of causing offense where none is intended, but the reasons offered
> fail to convince us how or why; & when we protest, we are perjoratively
> labelled (i.e., "Christians"), & condemned. This sorta goes against the
> ideal of [[Assume good faith]].
>
> Geoff
>
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