[WikiEN-l] Requiring sources

Sun Dec 25 01:15:32 UTC 2005

I'm comfortable with the proposed findings. There is a problem with  
dragging Veriditas in, less of a problem with bringing Jayjg in. But  
that is because Snowspinner didn't adequately investigate the  
transaction. When you look at the whole transaction, there were 4  
users involved, not just one bad apple, however cranky he may be.

Fred

On Dec 24, 2005, at 1:23 PM, Jon wrote:

> Fred
>
>   Thanks for your comments.
>
>   If the problem is as you say it is (and I haven't read the  
> details of the case myself), then the problem seems not to be that  
> sources were asked for (even though a google search might have  
> found some quickly), but rather:
>
>   (i) When they were provided, due consideration wasn't given to them.
>
>   (ii) That sources weren't provided by those asking for the other  
> side to provide them.
>
>
>
>   I deliberately use "due consideration" in (i) as after due  
> consideration the conclusion may be that the source is crap (as  
> David Gerard has said).
>
>
>   I'd also argue strongly that if a google search could have found  
> reliable sources quickly, it is still the job of the editor adding  
> the information to do the work to find them. After all, the first  
> 10 or so links in google might be, on closer examination, totally  
> unsuitable as references.
>
>
>   Could you give consideration to rewording the proposed Finding of  
> Fact and Remedy to better target the mischief you believe is there?
>
>
> Many thanks
>
>   Jon
>
> Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
>   My thought (I wrote these) was that they were harassing him. Of
> course he has to provide sources, but so do they. If their purpose is
> to strongly resist any edit which offends their point of view they
> don't feel they need to bother to look the subject up. They can play
> the "provide sources" game. Note that when Xed finally came up with
> some sources they deleted them, not good enough. These folks were
> engaged in game playing. To Viriditas's credit, he kept looking and
> found a really good reference that substantially improved the article.
>
> Fred
>
> On Dec 24, 2005, at 10:03 AM, Jon wrote:
>
>
>> I've just seen a couple of proposed decisions by the ArbCom that
>> are very worrying from the point of view of making sure Wikipedia
>> has reliable, sourced information.
>>
>> They are on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
>> Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Xed_2/Proposed_decision
>>
>> The proposals I have difficulty with are as follows:-
>>
>> 3.2.2 Sources demanded 2) After Xed restored, Jayjg demanded
>> sources [6] [7] despite the fact that a simple Google search [8]
>> gives 80,000 hits. He also removed any reference to occupation.
>>
>>
>> and
>> 3.3.3 Viriditas and Jayjg reminded regarding NPOV 3) Viriditas
>> (talk • contribs) and Jayjg (talk • contribs) are reminded that
>> Wikipedia is a cooperative enterprise which operates by consensus.
>> Masking of POV editing under the guise of citing NPOV and demanding
>> sources is inappropriate
>>
>>
>> Regarding the first one, I think it is fundamentally important
>> that the onus is on the editor inserting information into an
>> article to provide a source. It's easy to add information - but
>> time-consuming to check it's veracity (particularly if you don't
>> know where it's come from).
>>
>>
>> Regarding the second one, I don't believe it can ever be wrong to
>> ask for sources for unreference information. Indeed, one good way
>> of NPOV'ing articles is to make sure everything in them is properly
>> sourced.
>>
>>
>> Taken together these rulings, if passed (and they are in the
>> balance now), could create serious difficulty when dealing with
>> trolls and other disruptive users. User:Troll adds a "fact" in a
>> controversial article. User:Troll then refuses to remove it because
>> other readers can't cite a source disproving it or says it is for
>> others to find the source, but the "fact" should remain, whilst
>> dismissing editors who are even asking him for sources for his
>> edits as being POV warriors and warning them that ArbCom has
>> already found against their position.
>>
>>
>> Yours concernedly
>>
>> Jon
>>
>>
>>
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