[WikiEN-l] Requiring sources

Sat Dec 24 20:23:58 UTC 2005

Fred

  Thanks for your comments.

  If the problem is as you say it is (and I haven't read the details of the case myself), then the problem seems not to be that sources were asked for (even though a google search might have found some quickly), but rather:

  (i) When they were provided, due consideration wasn't given to them.

  (ii) That sources weren't provided by those asking for the other side to provide them.

  I deliberately use "due consideration" in (i) as after due consideration the conclusion may be that the source is crap (as David Gerard has said).

  I'd also argue strongly that if a google search could have found reliable sources quickly, it is still the job of the editor adding the information to do the work to find them. After all, the first 10 or so links in google might be, on closer examination, totally unsuitable as references.

  Could you give consideration to rewording the proposed Finding of Fact and Remedy to better target the mischief you believe is there?

Many thanks

  Jon

Fred Bauder <fredbaud at ctelco.net> wrote:
  My thought (I wrote these) was that they were harassing him. Of 
course he has to provide sources, but so do they. If their purpose is 
to strongly resist any edit which offends their point of view they 
don't feel they need to bother to look the subject up. They can play 
the "provide sources" game. Note that when Xed finally came up with 
some sources they deleted them, not good enough. These folks were 
engaged in game playing. To Viriditas's credit, he kept looking and 
found a really good reference that substantially improved the article.

Fred

On Dec 24, 2005, at 10:03 AM, Jon wrote:

> I've just seen a couple of proposed decisions by the ArbCom that 
> are very worrying from the point of view of making sure Wikipedia 
> has reliable, sourced information.
>
> They are on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ 
> Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Xed_2/Proposed_decision
>
> The proposals I have difficulty with are as follows:-
>
> 3.2.2 Sources demanded 2) After Xed restored, Jayjg demanded 
> sources [6] [7] despite the fact that a simple Google search [8] 
> gives 80,000 hits. He also removed any reference to occupation.
>
>
> and
> 3.3.3 Viriditas and Jayjg reminded regarding NPOV 3) Viriditas 
> (talk • contribs) and Jayjg (talk • contribs) are reminded that 
> Wikipedia is a cooperative enterprise which operates by consensus. 
> Masking of POV editing under the guise of citing NPOV and demanding 
> sources is inappropriate
>
>
> Regarding the first one, I think it is fundamentally important 
> that the onus is on the editor inserting information into an 
> article to provide a source. It's easy to add information - but 
> time-consuming to check it's veracity (particularly if you don't 
> know where it's come from).
>
>
> Regarding the second one, I don't believe it can ever be wrong to 
> ask for sources for unreference information. Indeed, one good way 
> of NPOV'ing articles is to make sure everything in them is properly 
> sourced.
>
>
> Taken together these rulings, if passed (and they are in the 
> balance now), could create serious difficulty when dealing with 
> trolls and other disruptive users. User:Troll adds a "fact" in a 
> controversial article. User:Troll then refuses to remove it because 
> other readers can't cite a source disproving it or says it is for 
> others to find the source, but the "fact" should remain, whilst 
> dismissing editors who are even asking him for sources for his 
> edits as being POV warriors and warning them that ArbCom has 
> already found against their position.
>
>
> Yours concernedly
>
> Jon
>
>
>
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