[Foundation-l] Cherokee Wikipedia Name Suggestion

Thu Jul 13 18:44:15 UTC 2006

Oldak Quill wrote:

>I think it is false to say that a particular language can never be
>presented in a secular, NPOV fashion. 
>

I would tend to agree with you here, but in the case of the Ute groups, 
its not our language and not our place
to make such an assessement based upon their beliefs.  We should never 
take a stance on the validity of any
person or groups beliefs as to whether they are right or wrong, just 
accept that these are their sincere
beliefs and go from there.

>Of course, it can be the case
>that most of the speakers are unwilling to present their langauge in
>this fashion (this is not a criticism). Wikipedia will forever be
>incompatable with systematic POV, but we would certainly like
>something worked out. 
>

The issue is that the culture and language of native peoples are 
virtually inseparable from one another.  The culture
IS the language.  Most native peoples (us included) believe the language 
contains words of power that express
and spiritual and physical as one, since in our belief systems, we make 
no distincition between the sacred and the
secular -- we view both as a interwoven tapestry.   See 
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherokee_Clans for a good
explanation of this.    These basic beliefs permeate Native American 
Culture and create artificial hurdles to efforts
like this one.  I am making progress because they trust me due to the 
fact I understand why they feel this way and
they know my word is written on the wind (they know I wont disrespect 
their wishes).

>Are there no Cherokeeans who are willing to work
>with the existing Wikipedia model to raise the profile of their
>langauge/culture?
>  
>

I am willing but the Anikutani are not willing to do so nor are the 
Religious folks in Oklahoma.  One of our linguists
recentl quit the project (I could care less she wasn't helping much 
anyway) because the leaders at the Stokes
Stomp Dance grounds slyly told her she would not lead the dances if she 
participated in this project and
allowed our language to be made part of a machine translator.  Most of 
our leaders do not share this view and
are behind the project, including the Tribal Council, Dr. Durbin 
Feeling, Dr, Delso, and a lot of our educators,
however, the more radical religious elements have been raising a lot of 
issues about it.  Tough, the light moves
forward ...

Jeff

>On 13/07/06, Jeff V. Merkey <jmerkey at wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
>  
>
>>Jeff V. Merkey wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Oldak Quill wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>Not at all. The best way to improve the site would be to work with
>>>>other langauge Wikipedias and within Wikimedia. Are you being active
>>>>in seeking members?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>Yes, I am, however, our culture is alien to the Wikipedia culture and
>>>there are going to be issues
>>>with the way the site operates.  So far every Cherokee who has edited on
>>>WP has gotten banned
>>>or scrutinized to the point they leave.
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>(NOTE:  This comment pertains to people who were raised in the Cherokee
>>Culture and speak the language, not
>>Cherokee folks who were raised in American Culture and may have Cherokee
>>ancestry but do not know their
>>culture or the language -- there are a lot of folks in this category on
>>WP today and they seem to be fine, but their
>>contributions are nil to nothing in this area becuase they do not know
>>the culture and for all intents and purposes,
>>they are not immersed in our culture or grew up in it -- I did).
>>
>>    
>>
>>> We have a concept of respecting
>>>the space of a person
>>>who is working on something.
>>>
>>>WP 's policies allow a 16 year old with a computer to come in and
>>>disrupt someone else's work and this
>>>doesn;t work for us.  Our culture is based on mutual respect, and I
>>>believe WP and Wales operate on the
>>>premise people on WP should be the same way.  This has not been the
>>>course followed.  I think WP should
>>>continue and we can do hat we need with the content -- off site where
>>>our cultural issues can coexist
>>>peacefully.
>>>
>>>You wont get many native people editing here due to the way the site is
>>>organized -- respect for others is
>>>lacking in the way articles are edited.  It's ok though, we can still
>>>both be successful if we figure out a way
>>>to create dual environments where folks can be successful.
>>>
>>>I am meeting w9ith the tribal council of the Ute, Shoshone, and Unita
>>>Nations on July 18, at 1:30 in Fort Duschene
>>>on the machine translations for their Wikipedia, so I am making
>>>excellent progress.  They also expressed a desire
>>>to host their content off Wikipedia due to their review of the issues
>>>with how the site works -- its alien to most native
>>>cultures.  The Ute's believe their language is sacred and they don't
>>>want non speakers working on it for religious
>>>reasons.  You are going to find this is a prevalent attitude among
>>>Native Peoples.  The ute's did not even allow their
>>>langauge to be written down until the mid 1970's due to their religious
>>>beliefs, so this is a big step for them.
>>>
>>>Jeff
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>On 13/07/06, Jeff V. Merkey <jmerkey at wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>Robert Scott Horning wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>Jeffrey V. Merkey wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Oldak Quill wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Most Wikimedia projects don't translate "Wikipedia", "Wiktionary", and
>>>>>>>>"Wikimedia", they transliterate them. Even non-Latin alphabets do
>>>>>>>>this: Russian Wikipedia is called "Википедию" which transliterates as
>>>>>>>>Ve-I-Ka-I-Pe-Ye-De-I-Ya (those are the names of the letters, at
>>>>>>>>least). Does Cherokee have some kind of formal transliteration system?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On 12/07/06, Jeffrey V. Merkey <jmerkey at wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>The name should be:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>ᏗᎪᏪᎵ ᎦᏣᏄᎳ
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>(digoweli gatsanula)
>>>>>>>>>"the books = pedia " " that are fast = wiki "
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>to match the actual meanings of the words "wiki" and "pedia".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>The current name of the site, while catchy, is not accurate for the
>>>>>>>>>language, and was synthesized.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Just a suggestion...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Jeff
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                  
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Yes. it does have one for words like this, but taking potshots at the
>>>>>>>name can create something you do not intend.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Let's look at it:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Wi-gi-que-di-ya
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>wi  - (negative imperfect past tense)
>>>>>>>gi - to combine
>>>>>>>que - incomplete verb root about an animal
>>>>>>>di - plural for a non living object
>>>>>>>ya - broad area of concern (means "pertains to or covers a broad area or
>>>>>>>topic)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>While it is interesting some of the points and counter points about this
>>>>>>issue, isn't this something better left to be discussed on project pages
>>>>>>by participants and made as a local decision?  At least I would feel
>>>>>>more comfortable with people who are involved with the development of
>>>>>>the project (aka Cherokee Wikipedia content developers) instead of
>>>>>>getting European or Austrialian attitudes from people who may never even
>>>>>>add a single word to that project.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>This whole discussion strikes me as something very similar to when the
>>>>>>name Wikipedia itself was coined, along with all of the other major
>>>>>>sister projects and their names.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>>There are no participants on the site.   The site has been dead for
>>>>>months.  Probably because NONE OF THEM SPEAK CHEROKEE.
>>>>>Perhaps best thing is to close the site completely and I'll just manage
>>>>>the fork off Wikipedia.
>>>>>
>>>>>Jeff
>>>>>
>>>>>Jeff
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>foundation-l mailing list
>>>>>foundation-l at wikimedia.org
>>>>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
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>>    
>>
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