[Foundation-l] RE:New language policy

Tue Nov 22 18:05:27 UTC 2005

pikola Thierry wrote:
> According to the point 2 in
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposed_policy_for_wikis_in_new_languages
>
> the language proposed must have a standard writing
> system. 
>
> If we approve the creation of Wikipedias such as
> Andalusian Spanish, we would create a Wikipedia where
> the users will have to create their own standard. This
> would be a huge contradiction with the Wikipedia
> principle against including original research, because
> the Wikipedia itself would become a linguistic
> research project in order to ellaborate a standard
> written form of the Spanish speech from Andalusia.
>   
I disagree that a language should have a standard orthography. When a 
language has no standard, there are several existing models that a 
community can deal with this. There is the Neapolitan model where all 
comers are welcome and where some ensure consistency within the 
different orthographies and there is the Lower Saxon model where a 
specific orthography is enforced.
> Wikimedia community should decide which role new
> Wikipedias play on new writing systems creation.
>
> Another problem of creating such Wikipedia is that the
> great majority of Andalusian speakers don't feel that
> they talk a different language than the rest of the
> Spanish speakers. Therefore, Wikimedia would become a
> non neutral part on the sociolinguistic discussion
> about language identity of Andalusian speakers. If we
> create an Andalusian Wikipedia we would agree on the
> claim that Andalusian is a separate language from
> Spanish.
>   
When you single out Andalusian, you say that a majority does feel a 
thing which means that a minority does not. Your assertion that 
Wikimedia would take a position is one, I would rather say that it is 
the community that does foster Andalusian as a language does take this 
position. When they prove their case and create a thriving Wikipedia 
they have a point. When the Wikipedia does not take off, the other side 
would have a point. By denying the opportunity for the Andalusians to 
have a Wikipedia, we would take a position, a position that we do not 
need to take.
> Another funny thing which should happen is that,
> taking into account that latinoamerican Spanish has
> significantly evolved from Andalusian Spanish, then,
> all the latinoamerican Spanish speakers should learn
> this special new writing system used in Wikipedia,
> adopting it to their local Spanish variation.
> Therefore they should actually be members of the
> Andalusian Wikipedia. Then Andalucian will become one
> of the largest languages of the world ;oD (half
> kidding)
>   
If this is the case, why do you argue against the existence of Andalusian ?
> Anyway, what I wanted to say is that I really think
> that Wikimedia Foundation should take much into
> account two points:
> Speakers identity and existence of a standard writing
> on that language. 
>
> I think that Wikimedia should not be active part of
> language creation, neither of language identity
> discusion.
The Wikimedia Foundation does not take an active part in language 
creation. A language exists or it does not. For artificial languages the 
Foundation has a different set of standards. We do not allow for these 
as easily as with existing languages/ dialects. As far as we should be 
concerned, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

My position is that it does not take away much when projects in dialects 
and languages. The fact that there are three existing wikipedias for 
languages that are spoken in the Netherlands does not take anything away 
from the nl.wikipedia. If anything we cooperate and each has its own 
community. Spain is so much bigger than the Netherlands, I think it 
should cherish its diversity and if that means be gracious to all of the 
languages that exist in Spain.

Thanks,
    GerardM