From maveric149 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 02:04:11 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 18:04:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up In-Reply-To: <41FE8643.9030803@gmx.de> Message-ID: <20050201020411.5368.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Erik Moeller wrote: > Sure, but if Anthere complains about my bold actions regularly, that > just means that everything is normal. She is by far not the only one complaining. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From maveric149 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 02:25:54 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 18:25:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up In-Reply-To: <41FD630C.4010305@gmx.de> Message-ID: <20050201022554.51150.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> --- Erik Moeller wrote: > I disagree. The work being done on Wikinews is, as I have already > explained before and as is also described in the Wikinews FAQ, very > different from the work done on Wikipedia: in-detail coverage of > individual events rather than summary-style overviews of a series of > events. To give you an example, one of the first French Wikinews > articles is this one about polling stations in Paris for the current > Iraqi elections: And that is a best case scenario. But one of the most cited reasons why *Wikipedia* is so great is the fact that it is kept up-to-date. The same type of person who is interested in current events is in the same pool of people who would likely contribute to Wikinews. These are news junkies. If *any* particular Wikipedia doesn't have enough contributors in this area, then drawing upon that limited pool is going to do some harm. You cited a Wikipedia regular as the author of this article. That's great but the time it took to write and research that single story could have been spent updating perhaps a half dozen existing Wikipedia articles. In this particular case I think those edits will very likely be accomplished by other people rather quickly. But if a great many news junkies are drawn away from the encyclopedia, then this is going to have a negative effect on keeping the encyclopedia up to date. I'm certain that this is not an issue for English and German but beyond that I'm not so sure. > Because it is different, Wikinews attracts different contributors than > Wikipedia. Your one example was of a Wikipedian creating a Wikinews story. > We're not in a position to tell people what they should and shouldn't be > doing. We should give people the option to work on Wikinews if they want > to. And you are not in a position to go against the will of any wiki user community. > The only thing your proposed requirement would accomplish is pissing > off volunteers who are ready to put time and energy into a worthwhile > project. You have already managed to piss a great many people on the French Wikipedia off. They *do* most certainly have a say - as do all language communities - whether or not they are ready for another project. It is up to them, NOT YOU. -- mav __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From erik_moeller at gmx.de Tue Feb 1 03:58:21 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 04:58:21 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up In-Reply-To: <20050201022554.51150.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050201022554.51150.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41FEFE5D.6050207@gmx.de> Daniel Mayer schrieb: >And that is a best case scenario. But one of the most cited reasons why >*Wikipedia* is so great is the fact that it is kept up-to-date. The same type >of person who is interested in current events is in the same pool of people who >would likely contribute to Wikinews. > Nope. The work of writing a news story from scratch is very different from just summarizing what's going on. It is a very specific contributor profile which, as the history of the English Wikinews has shown, is hard to find among Wikipedians. You are just equating the groups because it suits your argument without any empirical evidence to back it up. Let's look at who actually edits the Current Events on en. This is a unique list of contributors from the second half of October 2004, before Wikinews was active: Admbws Ahoerstemeier Alan Liefting Ambi Ancheta Wis Andrejj Anonymous Cow AntonioMartin Arwel Parry Avaragado Bob rulz Bogdangiusca Bontenbal CanisRufus Chrism ChrisO Ctrl build Danny Davidcannon David Gerard David Newton Dejitarob Dobrien Ed Cormany Ed Poor Eean Eewing Elf Enceladus Evercat Evil saltine Frazzydee Fred Bauder Gadfium Get-back-world-respect Golbez Grunt Harris7 Hooverbag Infrogmation Irishpunktom Irismeister JB82 JBradHicks Jewbacca Jiang Johnleemk Jongarrettuk Joseph Dwayne Jxg Kaihsu Ke4roh Korath Laguna72 Lance6Wins MacGyverMagic MarkPNeyer Mateo SA MathKnight Matt Crypto Mixcoatl Modemac Montrealais Mrwojo Nadavspi Nickshanks Nknight Peter L PFHLai Poccil Radagast Rdsmith4 Remember Richard Cane RickK Rje Rmhermen Saint-Paddy Sbwoodside Scooter Scott Sanchez Securiger Seth Ilys Simonides Solitude Spammer132 Spencer195 Sverdrup The Anome The King Of Gondor Tillwe TimothyPilgrim Tirin Toby Bartels VeryVerily Violetriga Wernher Whkoh Ydorb Youssefsan This is a list of English Wikinews editors who have actually created articles, as far back as Special:Newpages allows: Amgine Andrew pmk Arwel Parry BesigedB Borofkin Boud Cafzal Carlosar Dan100 Dcabrilo Dysprosia Gadfium Jiang King Ho Cheung Ronline Snooo Squeakfox Submarine The bellman VikOlliver VlSimpson Now, even though we're searching in a very large set, of these people, only 3 have actually edited Current Events on the English Wikipedia: Arwel Parry Gadfium Jiang Of these three, only Jiang has made a substantial number of edits on Wikinews. and he still contributes to Current Events as well. Arwel made 11 edits on Wikinews, Gadfium made 9 edits. None of the really active Wikinewsies, to my knowledge, are involved in Current Events on WP. Try writing a Wikinews article. Doing the research, collecting the references, writing a whole piece from scratch. This work is much more tedious than just providing a one paragraph summary with a source. It takes a different kind of person to do that. And the empirical data shows that. >You cited a Wikipedia regular as the author of this article. That's great but >the time it took to write and research that single story could have been spent >updating perhaps a half dozen existing Wikipedia articles. > Perhaps. People have a right to choose what they spend their time on. It's not up to you to decide that they shouldn't write news stories instead of updating Wikipedia articles. We don't have a hierarchy of projects. Wikinews has equal rights to Wikipedia. >And you are not in a position to go against the will of any wiki user >community. > > That is your opinion. In my opinion, it is the will of the Wikimedia community as a whole which counts. Wikimedia is a global project. It's not up to the French Wikimedia community to decide by majority that they don't want Wikinews, unless they have France-specific reasons for not wanting it. And I am supported in this both by policy and by statements of the Board to this effect, when I asked them this very question two months ago. Yes, I asked the Board whether we should treat the French Wikinews differently from the others because of the way the vote went, and the answer was no - I can document this with IRC chatlogs if necessary. This, by the way, is an interesting test case for language autonomy. And I firmly support the principle that Wikimedia-wide decisions can overrule local ones. >You have already managed to piss a great many people on the French Wikipedia >off. > People who didn't like Wikinews won't like the French Wikinews edition or any other. That doesn't matter. The time for voting on Wikinews is over. The project is launched and it will be started in the editions where there is sufficient interest to do so. Now, the real problem, I think, was in setting up the Wikinews voting pages as subpages of the languages. That gave some people the impression that the vote count of the Wikinews/Vote/Fr page has relevance on its own. It doesn't. Global votes should be counted and aggregated as such in the future. Regards, Erik From robin.shannon at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 04:02:12 2005 From: robin.shannon at gmail.com (Robin Shannon) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:02:12 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Project Wikineur In-Reply-To: <20050131234751.GP1091@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <010b01c507b8$83506c70$6f7219c4@genetrix> <53091267050131153442253e8e@mail.gmail.com> <20050131234751.GP1091@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <623d7338050131200267b2f6b3@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 10:47:51 +1100, David Gerard wrote: > Rebecca (misfitgirl at gmail.com) [050201 10:34]: > > > Wikibooks are on a specific theme. Work manuals can make good > > Wikibooks. And Wikibooks, whether single or in a series, can be made > > consistent, with the same set of headings and the same way of > > detailing information. I just can't see any reason to make this a > > seperate wiki - it'd just be a wikibook that we decided to promote > > above all the others, which isn't fair. > > Unless it's Wikipedia, which is fair cos it's by far the hugest wiki book! > Or wiktionary.Or wikiquote... Wikibooks was set up to be the home of textbooks. Not books, but Textbooks. Hence why wikpedia, wiktionary and wikiquote are not on wikibooks (other than historical accident). I really dont think it is fair to the wikibooks community, that we tell every new wikiproject to go set up on wikibooks. Its in risk of becoming the wikimedia dumping ground. Either we need to start telling people, go set up on wikicities, so we can see what happens and then if we like it we might invite you into the wikimedia family (as Jimbo has suggested) or create a wikilabs (as me and sj have suggested). There are lots of things of wikibooks right now that shouldnt be there. Take the cookbook for example; some wikipedians decided the content wasn't appropriate for wikipedia, so they pushed it off into wikibooks, despite it not being a textbook. The gardening book aswell. This is really the same as saying i dont want to throw this out, and i dont want to keep it, so ill just put it all in the backyard shed and pretend its not there. I personaly think that something like the cookbook, or the gardening book should have thier own wikis, and also another wiki with the working title DIYwiki, should be set up. The DIY wiki would not have text books, but rather could house lots of the stuff that is currently on wikibooks, but shouldnt be. Like the bycycle repair book. The computer repair book. First Aid etc, plus the possiblity for many many more. I believe that this wiki should not be made up os "books" like wikibooks, but be more like wikipedia in style. For example: it would be [[drainage ditch]] not [[farming:drainage ditch]] (wikibooks style). The article would be a couple of sections # Intro paragraph on what drainage ditches are, where and how they are used # TOC # How to build a dranage ditch ## Method 1 ## Method 2 ### Minor variation on Method 2 ## Method 3 # How to repair a drainage ditch ## Method 1 # Other Important notes on drainage ditches # Further Reading # References /me puts on asbestos underware. so what do you all think? paz y amor, [[User:The bellman]] -- hit me: robin.shannon.id.au jab me: saudade at jabber.zim.net.au This work is licensed under the Creative Commons Recombo Plus License. To view a copy of this license, visit http://creativecommons.org/licenses/sampling+/1.0/ From robin.shannon at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 04:11:03 2005 From: robin.shannon at gmail.com (Robin Shannon) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:11:03 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up In-Reply-To: <41FEFE5D.6050207@gmx.de> References: <20050201022554.51150.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> <41FEFE5D.6050207@gmx.de> Message-ID: <623d7338050131201152f4cb1b@mail.gmail.com> > That is your opinion. In my opinion, it is the will of the Wikimedia > community as a whole which counts. Wikimedia is a global project. It's > not up to the French Wikimedia community to decide by majority that they > don't want Wikinews, unless they have France-specific reasons for not > wanting it. And I am supported in this both by policy and by statements > of the Board to this effect, when I asked them this very question two > months ago. Yes, I asked the Board whether we should treat the French > Wikinews differently from the others because of the way the vote went, > and the answer was no - I can document this with IRC chatlogs if > necessary. This, by the way, is an interesting test case for language > autonomy. And I firmly support the principle that Wikimedia-wide > decisions can overrule local ones. This worries me for two reasons. One) half (or so) of all wikimedians are editors on en. Two) most discussion about not just new projects but everything is in english. paz y amor, [[User:The bellman]] -- hit me: robin.shannon.id.au jab me: saudade at jabber.zim.net.au This work is licensed under the Creative Commons Recombo Plus License. To view a copy of this license, visit http://creativecommons.org/licenses/sampling+/1.0/ From misfitgirl at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 04:26:20 2005 From: misfitgirl at gmail.com (Rebecca) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:26:20 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Project Wikineur In-Reply-To: <623d7338050131200267b2f6b3@mail.gmail.com> References: <010b01c507b8$83506c70$6f7219c4@genetrix> <53091267050131153442253e8e@mail.gmail.com> <20050131234751.GP1091@thingy.apana.org.au> <623d7338050131200267b2f6b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5309126705013120267cebfbec@mail.gmail.com> > Wikibooks was set up to be the home of textbooks. Not books, but > Textbooks. Hence why wikpedia, wiktionary and wikiquote are not on > wikibooks (other than historical accident). I really dont think it is > fair to the wikibooks community, that we tell every new wikiproject to > go set up on wikibooks. Its in risk of becoming the wikimedia dumping > ground. Either we need to start telling people, go set up on > wikicities, so we can see what happens and then if we like it we might > invite you into the wikimedia family (as Jimbo has suggested) or > create a wikilabs (as me and sj have suggested). I'm not suggesting to use Wikibooks as an incubator, in advance of giving a project like this full status. I'm suggesting to make it what it is: a Wikibook about business (it *is* a textbook - even if it isn't aimed at a scholarly audience). It shouldn't *be* a specific wiki - the Wikispecies crew browbeat the board into setting a particularly bad precedent, and then everyone jumped on the bandwagon. Let us not make the same mistake again. There are lots of > things of wikibooks right now that shouldnt be there. Take the > cookbook for example; some wikipedians decided the content wasn't > appropriate for wikipedia, so they pushed it off into wikibooks, > despite it not being a textbook. The gardening book aswell. This is > really the same as saying i dont want to throw this out, and i dont > want to keep it, so ill just put it all in the backyard shed and > pretend its not there. We can always take Wikimedia in new directions, and I laud such proposals, but I strongly despise these subject-specific works. They have limited potential in terms of both readers and participation, are much less likely to be successful, and would really be much better suited to, say, setting up a MediaWiki installation on a business website. Just because it is a wiki doesn't mean that it has to be under the Wikimedia banner. They're something altogether different from projects such as Wikipedia, Wiktionary, Wikisource and Wikinews - which are Wikimedia's mainstay. I think a strong case could be made that Wikicookbook would fall into the first category, but Wikineur (and the disheartening plague of similar proposals appearing recently) fall well into the second. > I personaly think that something like the cookbook, or the gardening > book should have thier own wikis, and also another wiki with the > working title DIYwiki, should be set up. I still can't see why it wouldn't just be a Wikibook with a less scholarly focus. Vocational education can require textbooks, too. -- ambi From wikipedia at earthlink.net Tue Feb 1 05:51:32 2005 From: wikipedia at earthlink.net (Michael Snow) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 21:51:32 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up In-Reply-To: <20050201042622.750831AC1766@mail.wikimedia.org> References: <20050201042622.750831AC1766@mail.wikimedia.org> Message-ID: <41FF18E4.1010400@earthlink.net> Erik Moeller wrote: > Daniel Mayer schrieb: > >> And you are not in a position to go against the will of any wiki user >> community. > > That is your opinion. In my opinion, it is the will of the Wikimedia > community as a whole which counts. Wikimedia is a global project. It's > not up to the French Wikimedia community to decide by majority that > they don't want Wikinews, unless they have France-specific reasons for > not wanting it. And I am supported in this both by policy and by > statements of the Board to this effect, when I asked them this very > question two months ago. Yes, I asked the Board whether we should > treat the French Wikinews differently from the others because of the > way the vote went, and the answer was no - I can document this with > IRC chatlogs if necessary. Yes, please do. Some of us would very much like to know why this was so clear to you, based on your communications with the Board, and apparently not clear to Anthere, given that she is part of this same Board. --Michael Snow From maveric149 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 06:31:19 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 22:31:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up In-Reply-To: <41FEFE5D.6050207@gmx.de> Message-ID: <20050201063119.42975.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> --- Erik Moeller wrote: > Nope. The work of writing a news story from scratch is very different > from just summarizing what's going on. It is a very specific contributor > profile which, as the history of the English Wikinews has shown, is hard > to find among Wikipedians. You are just equating the groups because it > suits your argument without any empirical evidence to back it up. Let's > look at who actually edits the Current Events on en. This is a unique > list of contributors from the second half of October 2004, before > Wikinews was active: You are comparing en.wikipedia users who edit the [[Current events]] page with people on en.wikinews. In spite of the fact that that was not my point (updating of the corresponding articles that are in the news, was) it is also about two English-language project versions. I already said, very specifically and a couple times, that Wikinews in English and German are fine due to the size of the respective language bases. The others I'm less sure about and would really like to know what those language communities think. > Perhaps. People have a right to choose what they spend their time on. > It's not up to you to decide that they shouldn't write news stories > instead of updating Wikipedia articles. We don't have a hierarchy of > projects. Wikinews has equal rights to Wikipedia. I never said it was. My point is that each language community needs to decide among themselves if they are ready to start a new Wikimedia project in their language. This is a bottom-up approach, instead of a top down one where a small group of people decide this for them (or worse, the majority of people who don't even speak their language force it on them). > That is your opinion. In my opinion, it is the will of the Wikimedia > community as a whole which counts. Wikimedia is a global project. It's > not up to the French Wikimedia community to decide by majority that they > don't want Wikinews, unless they have France-specific reasons for not > wanting it. They cannot veto the Wikimedia project, but they should be able to prevent one from starting in their language if they don't feel they are ready yet. The issue is a bit moot now, since fr.wikinews exists and is not likely to be closed down. But in the future we need to be more sensitive to the views of different language communities. This whole ugliness has exposed a weakness in the current guidelines that needs to be fixed. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From maveric149 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 06:55:16 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 22:55:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Project Wikineur In-Reply-To: <5309126705013120267cebfbec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050201065517.85884.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> > > Wikibooks was set up to be the home of textbooks. Not books, but > > Textbooks. Hence why wikpedia, wiktionary and wikiquote are not on > > wikibooks (other than historical accident). I really dont think it is > > fair to the wikibooks community, that we tell every new wikiproject to > > go set up on wikibooks. Its in risk of becoming the wikimedia dumping > > ground. While I created the Wikibooks name based on a combination of WikiWiki and textbooks, that project has never been only about textbooks. It is a place to build just about any non-fiction reference book with, and this is critical, a finite end size (if you want to explore a subject area in more detail than that, start other books). The 'finite' part excludes potentially huge or even practically infinitely-sized things such as a general quote book, dictionary, or encyclopedia. The very different formats for these other projects is also a reason for the separation; Modules in a wikibook need to be in in a hierarchy and should ideally be read in a particular sequence, while articles in Wikipedia and Wikiquote and entries at Wiktionary are anything but hierarchical and can be read in any order. True, the emphasis is on instructional-oriented material, but that is an *emphasis* to encourage the most-potentially positive aspect of the project. It is ''not'' an exclusionary principle. ambi wrote: > We can always take Wikimedia in new directions, and I laud such > proposals, but I strongly despise these subject-specific works. They > have limited potential in terms of both readers and participation, are > much less likely to be successful, and would really be much better > suited to, say, setting up a MediaWiki installation on a business > website. Just because it is a wiki doesn't mean that it has to be > under the Wikimedia banner. I agree with this statement 100% and can't think of a thing to add. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From anthere9 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 06:59:02 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 07:59:02 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up References: <20050201022554.51150.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> <41FEFE5D.6050207@gmx.de> Message-ID: <41FF28B6.1080302@yahoo.com> Erik Moeller a ?crit: >> And you are not in a position to go against the will of any wiki user >> community. >> > That is your opinion. In my opinion, it is the will of the Wikimedia > community as a whole which counts. Wikimedia is a global project. It's > not up to the French Wikimedia community to decide by majority that they > don't want Wikinews, unless they have France-specific reasons for not > wanting it. And I am supported in this both by policy and by statements > of the Board to this effect, when I asked them this very question two > months ago. Yes, I asked the Board whether we should treat the French > Wikinews differently from the others because of the way the vote went, > and the answer was no - I can document this with IRC chatlogs if > necessary. This, by the way, is an interesting test case for language > autonomy. And I firmly support the principle that Wikimedia-wide > decisions can overrule local ones. I am perplex of how you could document that. I remember well that I agreed the creation of the new project would ultimately results in possibly this project be created in all languages, and that the founding principles would be the same in all languages. So, that obviously, all languages would be treated the same in that perspective. This is what I meant by "treated the same", of course, we need a project to be consistant across all languages. But here is also what I remembered we agreed upon (though obviously, there was misunderstanding) * a test site would be created in english * after a certain time, the test site would go live and become a real wikimedia site. At this point, we considered the concept validated by the board * each new site (new language) could start when enough people agree on its creation (Obviously, we do not agree on "enough people"; I would consider that when there is strong opposition from a community, among other things due to legal fears, then enough people is not really one or two) * as long as real editors are below 5 and no sysop is on project, the site would be demo for this language in any cases * only when the board approves would the language specific site becomes officially part of wikimedia. This was what *I* understood and approved. The reason of the last step was related to legal threats and such. In all cases, I support that wikimedia-wide policies overrules local ones only when it threatens consistency, image and functionning across all projects. As far as I remember, Wikimedia DOES NOT decide what the projects should become and wha they should contain. This is up to communities, with the benevolent support of the Foundation. Anthere From erik_moeller at gmx.de Tue Feb 1 07:03:32 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 08:03:32 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up In-Reply-To: <41FF18E4.1010400@earthlink.net> References: <20050201042622.750831AC1766@mail.wikimedia.org> <41FF18E4.1010400@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <41FF29C4.10301@gmx.de> Michael- > > Yes, please do. Some of us Who is "some"? Who is "us"? > would very much like to know why this was so clear to you, based on > your communications with the Board, and apparently not clear to > Anthere, given that she is part of this same Board. Here's a chatlog from October 29 on #wikimedia with Anthere and Aurevilly. Angela and jwales were also present. Okt 29 13:13:59 Xirzon, what will you do with wikinews poll result : lauch it globally or launch it only for languages that approved it? Okt 29 13:14:14 Aurevilly: I'm tending towards the latter, but will have to discuss with the board Okt 29 13:14:39 hum ? Okt 29 13:14:42 euuuu Okt 29 13:14:50 I think there is a misunderstanding Here Okt 29 13:14:57 vote is global Okt 29 13:15:06 Anthere: that's the way I always intended it, yes Okt 29 13:15:14 we do not isolate decisions depending on languages Okt 29 13:15:18 I have no problem launching globally! Okt 29 13:15:19 Xirzon, OK ; I think it's better to stay global, IMO Okt 29 13:15:29 I'm just trying to make people happy. Okt 29 13:15:32 launch or not launch of specific languages will be later Okt 29 13:15:48 I also think that isolating vote on different pages Okt 29 13:15:52 is indeed confusing Okt 29 13:15:58 I am not very happy with this Okt 29 13:16:00 Anthere: what would you suggest as an alternative? Okt 29 13:16:05 all votes on one page Now, as should be obvious from this excerpt, I was very willing to use whatever approach the Board prescribed. Later I commented: Okt 29 13:29:44 board: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:Aggregation is now used on all vote pages - please edit if needed The template contains the text: "Please note: The vote counts will be aggregated [[Wikinews/Vote/All|from all languages]]. A global majority is needed." It was prominently displayed on all voting pages. We also agreed not to state at this point when the different Wikinews editions would be launched ("leave it vague", Jimbo and Anthere said). Weeks after the vote, on December 2, I wrote the following message to foundation-l: http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2004-December/001601.html -snip- Now that we're about to move demo.wikinews.org to en.wikinews.org, we have to think about a procedure for setting up other language domains. If any decision on this matter has already been made by the Board, please let me know. It should be noted that on two of the language voting pages, no majority was reached on starting the project. These are French and Chinese. Others had very small participation. In the original proposal, I suggested that Wikinews can be set up in any accepted Wikimedia project language where there is at least one interested participant, and that 4 more regulars are required for the language to be recognized as "official", and for the firsts sysops to be created. I would like to ask the Board if this procedure is acceptable. If it is not, one possible alternative would be to immediately set up language domains for any language where there are more than 10 votes on the respective voting page on Meta, and more than 50% in favor. This would currently mean Japanese and German. The vote could be re-opened, and kept open permanently. -snip- Jimmy only responded that he was OK with creating de.wikinews.org. Anthere did not respond at all. Angela wrote a detailed response: http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2004-December/001607.html -snip- There is a proposed policy for new languages at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Policy_for_wikis_in_new_languages There may be reasons for Wikinews to follow a different procedure to our other wikis though, since the process of creating a news site really needs more users than an encyclopedia. The proposed language policy currently states five users are needed. If this does not change, then the same policy can be applied to Wikinews. ... I don't think the vote on whether to start the project is the same as a vote to have a language sub-domain once the project has started, so these votes should be discounted now. Any creation of a new language Wikinews should follow whatever the procedure is going to be used without reference to the previous vote. -snip- The policy for new languages was not changed. The German edition was launched on December 3. On December 4, I created the [[Wikinews/Start a new edition]] page. That sat there until January 29, collecting pledges, and referencing the policy for new languages on Meta. I don't know if Anthere was away when I sent the mail above, but she had several weeks to respond or to contradict the agreed upon requirements, or to comment on the "/Start a new edition" page that they were not acceptable. She did not, nor did Jimmy. As the chatlog above shows, I was willing to bend over backwards to make the community happy, but was later authorized to follow a simpler procedure, which I did. Now, I'm as always open to discussing ways to improve our policy. But the evidence is clear that there was no wrongdoing on my part. Regards, Erik From erik_moeller at gmx.de Tue Feb 1 07:19:47 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 08:19:47 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Language autonomy and "readiness" (was: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up) In-Reply-To: <20050201063119.42975.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050201063119.42975.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41FF2D93.4000408@gmx.de> Daniel Mayer schrieb: >The others I'm less sure about and would >really like to know what those language communities think. > > Aside from what people's feelings are, it is important to collect empirical data. So far, your claim that Wikipedia will lose contributors to in-the-news articles because of Wikinews is unproven. It may in fact be the other way around, given that Wikinews prominently links to as much Wikipedia material as possible. >My point is that each language community needs to decide >among themselves if they are ready to start a new Wikimedia project in their >language. > That's a different subject deserving of its own thread. I feel that whether or not a language community should have the right to decline a project should depend in large part on what its reasons are to do so. I am perfectly willing to say that the Chinese community should be allowed to make that decision, since they will have to pay the consequences if Wikipedia will be blocked because of Wikinews. But the arguments that have been brought up against the French Wikinews are just the same that have been brought up against Wikinews in general: It could harm our reputation, it could lead to legal problems, etc. Whether these arguments outweigh the benefits of the project has been addressed in a global vote. So I don't see a reason why the French community should be able to deny people the right to work on a French edition of Wikinews. Now, your argument is about "readiness". This is an interesting point, and the question of readiness should perhaps be handled in a different manner from the question of whether the project should be launched at all. When I launched the French Wikinews, I did not talk to the community beforehand and give them time to prepare for the launch. This may have ruffled a few feathers, and made it look like a decision that came from outside, rather than a genuine choice of the French Wikinews participants. What is a good solution to that problem? Perhaps, as soon as the required number of contributors is reached, there should be a vote on when the desired launch date is. "Never" would not be an option in that vote, but it could have a scope of, say, 4 weeks. This would also be a test of whether the people who pledged to participate are actually still around and interested, so the vote could have the same minimum number of participants. I am opposed to delaying the creation of Wikinews just because a Wikipedia in the language in question is still too small. That would create a hierarchy of projects. When there are participants, the project should be launched - but the timetable for the launch could be set by the community. Regards, Erik From maveric149 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 08:15:46 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 00:15:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Language autonomy and "readiness" (was: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up) In-Reply-To: <41FF2D93.4000408@gmx.de> Message-ID: <20050201081546.67872.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> --- Erik Moeller wrote: > Aside from what people's feelings are, it is important to collect > empirical data. So far, your claim that Wikipedia will lose contributors > to in-the-news articles because of Wikinews is unproven. It may in fact > be the other way around, given that Wikinews prominently links to as > much Wikipedia material as possible. Again, those data were in a language that I already noted was fine for Wikinews. And English, being such an international language and spoken by so many people can not be a used in such a test. The English-speaking community of users working on Wikimedia projects is huge. So your results are not at all surprising. > But the arguments that have been brought up against the French Wikinews > are just the same that have been brought up against Wikinews in general: > It could harm our reputation, it could lead to legal problems, etc. > Whether these arguments outweigh the benefits of the project has been > addressed in a global vote. Imposing the results of a global vote onto a language community which has a great deal of opposition to the vote result, is not something that makes for harmonious co-existence between languages. This is especially true when a large plurality of the global vote is from a single language community. So global votes are great for deciding if the foundation wants to start a new project at all. But whether or not particular language communities are ready for that project should be up to them - not forced onto them. > What is a good solution to that problem? Perhaps, as soon as the > required number of contributors is reached, there should be a vote on > when the desired launch date is. "Never" would not be an option in that > vote, but it could have a scope of, say, 4 weeks. This would also be a > test of whether the people who pledged to participate are actually still > around and interested, so the vote could have the same minimum number of > participants. 'Never' is not a valid option. I can agree with that. But 'not in the immediate future' *would* have to be an option, IMO. > I am opposed to delaying the creation of Wikinews just because a > Wikipedia in the language in question is still too small. That would > create a hierarchy of projects. When there are participants, the project > should be launched - but the timetable for the launch could be set by > the community. You are putting words into my mouth. I never said that Wikpedians in a certain language decide this, I said that the relevant language community decides it (well at least if I did say it, that was not what I meant :). *All* Wikimedia projects in a particular language have a stake in a new project in their language. Thus all Wikimedians who participate in those language project versions need to be heard. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From magnus.manske at web.de Tue Feb 1 08:16:50 2005 From: magnus.manske at web.de (Magnus Manske) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 09:16:50 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] NIFT: Translations for WikiMania? Message-ID: <41FF3AF2.1060503@web.de> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I just found NIFT [1], a free software for organizing and broadcasting simultanious translations of speeches. Something for WikiMania, maybe? Magnus [1] http://www.apo33.org/babels/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=18 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFB/zryCZKBJbEFcz0RAq5IAJsHHmVUFE2Wl1NP2bUQbfdtQKVKYACdFFw1 HiS2XiJLULSFrhljkTfgViY= =iYeq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From gerard.meijssen at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 08:37:36 2005 From: gerard.meijssen at gmail.com (Gerard Meijssen) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 09:37:36 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up In-Reply-To: <41FF29C4.10301@gmx.de> References: <20050201042622.750831AC1766@mail.wikimedia.org> <41FF18E4.1010400@earthlink.net> <41FF29C4.10301@gmx.de> Message-ID: <41FF3FD0.7060203@gmail.com> This whole huha about the Wikinews thing is in my opinion a storm in a teacup. There are some issues though. First, the wikipedia crowd is just that, the wikiPedia crowd. Many words have been used to describe how a wikinews article is different from a wikipedia article and, that you can atrackt different people to become part of the wikinews crowd. People may be part of both crowds, it is their prerogative. I object to the notion that the wikipedia crowd has much say over what happens on other projects; walk the talk. There is more to wikimedia than just wikipedia and, when people are part of multiple crowds, there will be a spill over of energy and idea's from one project to the next. Have a look at the nl:wikinews and you will find that a small community like the nl:crowd just laps wikinews up. Much work is done to make wikinews visually pleasing, much is done to give it its structure and I am sure it will be cool with great content. At this moment some of the best nl:wikipedia editors are working on nl:wikinews. It is bound to atract people who will be mainly active on wikinews but in the mean time it has a strong bond with the other nl:projects and as such it strenghtens the nl:wikiMedia crowd. The thing is, wikipedia is four years old, so what of it when a wikipedia will grow less quickly ... so what ? It will grow and it will reach the 500.000 mark for articles eventually. All in its own good time. That is one resource we have plenty of, time. One resource we should be jealous of is the coherency of a crowd within a language, in my opinion this constant bickering is not good for the fr:crowd and it is not good for the wikiMedia crowd. Please close ranks, be sensitive to each others sensibilities and consider how what you do helps the foundation. If it does not help the foundation and its projects, another line of action, reasoning is called for. Thanks, GerardM From erik_moeller at gmx.de Tue Feb 1 08:39:47 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 09:39:47 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Language autonomy and "readiness" (was: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up) In-Reply-To: <20050201081546.67872.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050201081546.67872.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41FF4053.7060803@gmx.de> Daniel - >Again, those data were in a language that I already noted was fine for >Wikinews. And English, being such an international language and spoken by so >many people can not be a used in such a test. The English-speaking community of >users working on Wikimedia projects is huge. So your results are not at all >surprising. > > That's not my point. My point is that you have not presented data in support of your hypothesis at all. >Imposing the results of a global vote onto a language community which has a >great deal of opposition to the vote result, is not something that makes for >harmonious co-existence between languages. > I do not see it as an imposition, but as the logical outcome of the global vote. Running a global organization like Wikimedia is always a balancing act between preserving a coherent identity and respecting local variations. My proposal takes into account local variations, such as the China situation. In these cases, a local vote is justifiable. If, however, we run it for every language community, this will just lead to largely divergent identities forming over the long term, in part simply due to statistical fluctuations or temporary shifts in opinion. Wikimedia will no longer be recognizable as one, the risk of forks will increase, and the pace of innovation will become ever more heterogenous. The disharmony right now is the result of miscommunications and a somewhat surprising launch. That's why I conclude from this experience that the timetable should be up to the interested participants to decide -- not to people who have no interest in the project at all, because it would then effectively become another vote *on the project*, which I am opposed to. "Not in the immediate future" makes little sense if you're asking people who have pledged to participate in the project when they want to do it. Regards, Erik From gerard.meijssen at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 10:03:49 2005 From: gerard.meijssen at gmail.com (Gerard Meijssen) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 11:03:49 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Project Wikineur In-Reply-To: <20050201065517.85884.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050201065517.85884.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41FF5405.5000404@gmail.com> Daniel Mayer wrote: >>>Wikibooks was set up to be the home of textbooks. Not books, but >>>Textbooks. Hence why wikpedia, wiktionary and wikiquote are not on >>>wikibooks (other than historical accident). I really dont think it is >>>fair to the wikibooks community, that we tell every new wikiproject to >>>go set up on wikibooks. Its in risk of becoming the wikimedia dumping >>>ground. >>> >>> > >While I created the Wikibooks name based on a combination of WikiWiki and >textbooks, that project has never been only about textbooks. It is a place to >build just about any non-fiction reference book with, and this is critical, a >finite end size (if you want to explore a subject area in more detail than >that, start other books). The 'finite' part excludes potentially huge or even >practically infinitely-sized things such as a general quote book, dictionary, >or encyclopedia. > >The very different formats for these other projects is also a reason for the >separation; Modules in a wikibook need to be in in a hierarchy and should >ideally be read in a particular sequence, while articles in Wikipedia and >Wikiquote and entries at Wiktionary are anything but hierarchical and can be >read in any order. > >True, the emphasis is on instructional-oriented material, but that is an >*emphasis* to encourage the most-potentially positive aspect of the project. It >is ''not'' an exclusionary principle. > >ambi wrote: > > >>We can always take Wikimedia in new directions, and I laud such >>proposals, but I strongly despise these subject-specific works. They >>have limited potential in terms of both readers and participation, are >>much less likely to be successful, and would really be much better >>suited to, say, setting up a MediaWiki installation on a business >>website. Just because it is a wiki doesn't mean that it has to be >>under the Wikimedia banner. >> >> > >I agree with this statement 100% and can't think of a thing to add. > >-- mav > > > One way of dealing with this is by having it as a "Wikicities" project. If it pans out, it can always return into the wikimedia fold :) . Thanks, Gerard From maveric149 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 10:04:37 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 02:04:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Language autonomy and "readiness" (was: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up) In-Reply-To: <41FF4053.7060803@gmx.de> Message-ID: <20050201100437.48269.qmail@web51609.mail.yahoo.com> Erik, But to be clear, I don't think you technically did anything wrong. It was all a big misunderstanding that was based upon some fairly untested policies. What is important for us now, is to make sure we don't make the same mistakes in the future. --- Erik Moeller wrote: > That's not my point. My point is that you have not presented data in > support of your hypothesis at all. I supplied arguments. You did the same and also supplied data that only proved a point I had conceded at the very start of this whole thing. Thus the effect of your data on this argument is moot. > I do not see it as an imposition, but as the logical outcome of the > global vote. You are welcome to that view. Many other people in the language communities that are affected by this 'logical outcome' have views that are contradictory to yours. Their voices and opinion about what is logical are also important and should be considered. Not just brushed aside because the global majority has spoken. > Running a global organization like Wikimedia is always a > balancing act between preserving a coherent identity and respecting > local variations. Thus my proposal to have Wikimedia-wide votes about the establishment of a project and if that passes (and gets board approval), then it would be up to individual language communities to figure out when it is a good time to start that project in their language. This balances things very well. More importantly, it would have avoided the current ugliness. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 10:19:50 2005 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 05:19:50 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] NIFT: Translations for WikiMania? In-Reply-To: <41FF3AF2.1060503@web.de> References: <41FF3AF2.1060503@web.de> Message-ID: <742dfd06050201021946a3fc84@mail.gmail.com> Yes, there are lots of tips we can take from NOMAD. Of course it seems that even with their own home-grown software it takes them a bit of work to get it set up each conference... and their documentation leaves a family of little somethings to be desired. The broadcasting bit of our simul translation will probably be thrown in for free if we outsource the translation. But especially if we're thinking about ever having a larger conference with more languages, it would pay to play with NIFT. +sj+ On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 09:16:50 +0100, Magnus Manske wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > I just found NIFT [1], a free software for organizing and broadcasting > simultanious translations of speeches. Something for WikiMania, maybe? > > Magnus > > [1] http://www.apo33.org/babels/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=18 > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFB/zryCZKBJbEFcz0RAq5IAJsHHmVUFE2Wl1NP2bUQbfdtQKVKYACdFFw1 > HiS2XiJLULSFrhljkTfgViY= > =iYeq > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > -- +sj+ _ _ :-------.-.--------.--.--------.-.--------.--.--------[...] From gchait at gmx.net Tue Feb 1 09:16:09 2005 From: gchait at gmx.net (Gavin Chait) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:16:09 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] re: Project Wikineur Message-ID: <006b01c5085a$bc543040$617219c4@genetrix> When I go to a library, I don't ask for a book. I ask for books on a specific subject. When I go to a university, I don't just ask to do a degree. I get one in a specific subject. The whole basis of education is "subject-specific works". That is how universities divide themselves up: different schools run independently but under the broad "brand" of a single institution. The Wiki Foundation is your broad brand. If Wikibooks is "a place to build just about any non-fiction reference book with, and this is critical, a finite end size (if you want to explore a subject area in more detail than that, start other books). The 'finite' part excludes potentially huge or even practically infinitely-sized things such as a general quote book, dictionary, or encyclopedia." There is immediately an exclusion since there are, potentially, an infinite number of different types of businesses. Take a walk down any main street in even the smallest town and the number of different businesses present runs into the hundreds. I'm also not too sure about "They have limited potential in terms of both readers and participation." In developed countries business owners spend a vast amount of time networking and studying up on how to run their businesses. There are a large number of organisations catering to this market (Business Network International, Entrepreneur Magazine, for instance). In the US 80% of people work for a small business - an individual or partnership owned concern - as compared to an institution owned by shareholders. There are millions of business owners. Even in South Africa there are about 10 local magazines catering to the market. The reference section in your local bookshop seems to be swamped with business books. And, here's the interesting part, most of them deal with business only in the most general of terms. There are very few books on specific businesses - mainly because most writers are consultants in general employment. Publishers are uncomfortable producing specific books for the general market. The information does exist. In the heads of entrepreneurs and NGO's (such as mine). Take a search on any of the weblog groups and see just how many are dedicated to business owners asking each other for advice (e.g. http://www.livejournal.com/users/entrepreneurs as a tiny sample). If you would like it to be inside Wikibooks, that is fine - but it does need a clearly defined entry point; a clear set of "rules" regarding presentation of information and a definite understanding of what business is (and is not). Even the simplest explanation for how to run (for instance) a farm producing maize is going to be lengthy. We don't go looking for food, we go looking for something specific. We don't want to watch just sport - we want something specific. Services are getting more specific, not less. Only a specialist can offer insight into the specialised needs of their clients. A librarian is not a business consultant. This doesn't mean that the techniques of libraries can't be used to present disparate information. Regards, Gavin From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 12:49:04 2005 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 07:49:04 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up In-Reply-To: <41FF29C4.10301@gmx.de> References: <20050201042622.750831AC1766@mail.wikimedia.org> <41FF18E4.1010400@earthlink.net> <41FF29C4.10301@gmx.de> Message-ID: <742dfd0605020104493207dbfb@mail.gmail.com> > But the evidence is clear that there was no wrongdoing on my part. Erik - I haven't seen anyone accuse you of wrongdoing, only of pissing people off. It feels as though the issue at hand is about handling loose consensus with goodwill and a peaceful heart, more than it is about following or breaking clearly-defined rules. Early discussions and votes about wikinews were tactful - concerned with consensus and discussion, not with empowering groups to act unilaterally if they satisfied a set of conditions - and *very* patient, and unarguably successful. So were you. I hope we can get back there. +sj+ On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 08:03:32 +0100, Erik Moeller wrote: > Michael Snow wrote: > > Yes, please do. Some of us > > Who is "some"? Who is "us"? > > > would very much like to know why this was so clear to you, based on Please don't chafe at Michael. I wanted to know the same thing, until you and Anthere clarified the matter. It is hard to know where you are coming from when your are so combative. +sj+ From beesley at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 13:46:04 2005 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:46:04 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Project Wikineur In-Reply-To: <41FF5405.5000404@gmail.com> References: <20050201065517.85884.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> <41FF5405.5000404@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8b722b8005020105462c544c06@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 11:03:49 +0100, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > One way of dealing with this is by having it as a "Wikicities" project. > If it pans out, it can always return into the wikimedia fold :) . Since many are regarding this as something suitable for Wikibooks, it would not be accepted at Wikicities unless the Wikibooks community expressly opposed it being part of their project. However, there is now a Wikicities Scratchpad, which provides a place for rejected Wikicities, so if someone wants to create this as a temporary wiki on that site, they can do so. This might be a useful place for people to demonstrate what their proposal is in order to show people on this list whether or not the wiki does look right for Wikibooks. http://scratchpad.wikicities.com/ Angela. From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 15:40:27 2005 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 10:40:27 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] re: Project Wikineur In-Reply-To: <006b01c5085a$bc543040$617219c4@genetrix> References: <006b01c5085a$bc543040$617219c4@genetrix> Message-ID: <742dfd0605020107404355d1c6@mail.gmail.com> Gavin, Thanks for sharing such a wonderful idea. This sounds like it could one day turn into a very large-scale project, one more suited to its own wiki, with many local wikiprojects, idiosyncratic policies about what kind of information can and can't be shared, how one can be neutral while addressing legal and political monetary issues that readers will take very much to heart, and more. One nice thing about this project is that its audience of active editors would be fairly distinct from the audience of active encyclopedia editors.ll I think the right way to go about creating new project like this is to find people who would contribute initial content, write up a few pages on meta: addressing specific policy issues that would have to be worked out for the project, and then write a handful of example articles (in your userspace, perhaps, since we haven't agreed on whether meta or wikibooks are suitable for such articles). +sj+ From erik_moeller at gmx.de Tue Feb 1 17:58:09 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 18:58:09 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up In-Reply-To: <742dfd0605020104493207dbfb@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050201042622.750831AC1766@mail.wikimedia.org> <41FF18E4.1010400@earthlink.net> <41FF29C4.10301@gmx.de> <742dfd0605020104493207dbfb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41FFC331.6090009@gmx.de> Sj - >I haven't seen anyone accuse you of wrongdoing, only of pissing people >off. > > Accusing is accusing. Stop this bullshit, please. Regards, Erik From anthere9 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 18:33:50 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 19:33:50 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up References: <20050201042622.750831AC1766@mail.wikimedia.org> <41FF18E4.1010400@earthlink.net> <41FF29C4.10301@gmx.de> Message-ID: <41FFCB8E.7070506@yahoo.com> Erik Moeller a ?crit: > In the original proposal, I suggested that Wikinews can be set up in > any accepted Wikimedia project language where there is at least one > interested participant, and that 4 more regulars are required for the > language to be recognized as "official", and for the firsts sysops to > be created. Ah. I am happy to find out ultimately that I had understood the steps well. You wrote well here that 5 regulars were needed for the project to be recognised official. I see "regular" and I see "official". So my feelings of what the creation steps should be were just correct. This is how I interpretated the idea that the creation had to require an official step somehow, and where I interpretated that bulgarian editors or editors not active for a month would not be counted for creation of french speaking wikinews. I am sure we will agree on this. So, to end up on this, again, I do not think you broke any policy, I just think that if we stick blindly to rules, then a rule broken is problematic. In this case, the rule forgot to mention an editor had to be able to speak a language to have his name counted for a new project, so obviously, his name was counted. We have two choices. Either to make better and more rules, by mentionning the opinion of a non speaking editor is not useful for the creation of a certain language, or we just try to be reasonable, take time before doing things, ask people around. Just another way of doing things. It takes time indeed, but that might be worth peace. From gchait at gmx.net Tue Feb 1 20:48:15 2005 From: gchait at gmx.net (Gavin Chait) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 22:48:15 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] re: Project Wikineur Message-ID: <00d401c5089f$bf147b60$617219c4@genetrix> I think it is a wonderful suggestion to set up a pilot on the Scratchpad. Questions that I would appreciate some guidelines on: 1. What constitutes "proof" that it is indeed viable? (How much information production, visitors, etc.) 2. Are there other suggestions than the name "wikineur" that anyone would prefer? 3. What sort of limitations, concerns, etc do I need to address prior to creating a Scratchpad pilot? Regards, Gavin From erik_moeller at gmx.de Tue Feb 1 21:30:25 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 22:30:25 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up In-Reply-To: <41FFCB8E.7070506@yahoo.com> References: <20050201042622.750831AC1766@mail.wikimedia.org> <41FF18E4.1010400@earthlink.net> <41FF29C4.10301@gmx.de> <41FFCB8E.7070506@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41FFF4F1.70605@gmx.de> Anthere - > > Ah. I am happy to find out ultimately that I had understood the steps > well. You wrote well here that 5 regulars were needed for the project > to be recognised official. Please read the complete email. That proposal was never implemented because it did not receive Board approval. > We have two choices. Either to make better and more rules Better, not more, seems reasonable to me. Anything else will lead to arbitrary outcomes in the creation of new languages. Regards, Erik From willtop31 at epsfh.com Wed Feb 2 00:13:55 2005 From: willtop31 at epsfh.com (willtop31 at epsfh.com) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 18:13:55 -0600 Subject: [Foundation-l] Requests for new Wiki projects Message-ID: <1107303235.42001b43244e1@webmail.epsfh.com> Hello Wikipedia people, My name is Craig, and I would like to make a proposal. I did make an honest effort to follow all the instructions correctly, but I don?t feel I got it right. If I did something wrong please let me know, so I may resubmit. I had particular trouble posting to the ?Content pages in category "Proposed projects"?, something did not seem right. Well, here it is. ===Working title=== *Link to proposal on mailing list: [http://mail.wikipedia.org/] *Naming suggestions: ElectroWiki Wikitronics Wikital *Domain name: Electrowiki.org *Scope: A place to gather international standards for electricity, electronics, and robotics. Instead of paying large sums of money to the IEEE and ISO for access to their standards. *Details: Electronics and electrical Wikipedia. This project will grow as student contribute and use it as a resource for studying electronics, alternative energy, and robotics. *Proposer: Craig Topham *People interested joining: Students of Lane Community College Electronic Technology Programs. Eugene, Oregon U.S.A ** ** *Relevant links: http://edt.epsfh.com/electrowiki/index.php (just starting, very, very much just starting, not even a zygote) Thank you, Craig Topham Willtop31 at epsfh.com From fallout at lexx.eu.org Tue Feb 1 23:16:35 2005 From: fallout at lexx.eu.org (=?ISO-8859-1?B?UGF3ZbMgJ0F1c2lyJyBEZW1ib3dza2k=?=) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 00:16:35 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Requests for new Wiki projects In-Reply-To: <1107303235.42001b43244e1@webmail.epsfh.com> References: <1107303235.42001b43244e1@webmail.epsfh.com> Message-ID: <1952530177.20050202001635@lexx.eu.org> If it were to be created, wouldn't it be best to merge it with Wikibuilder and WikiTech proposals? -- Ausir Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia http://pl.wikipedia.org From misfitgirl at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 23:51:01 2005 From: misfitgirl at gmail.com (Rebecca) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:51:01 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] re: Project Wikineur In-Reply-To: <006b01c5085a$bc543040$617219c4@genetrix> References: <006b01c5085a$bc543040$617219c4@genetrix> Message-ID: <53091267050201155167332ead@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:16:09 +0200, Gavin Chait wrote: > When I go to a library, I don't ask for a book. I ask for books on a > specific subject. When I go to a university, I don't just ask to do a > degree. I get one in a specific subject. The whole basis of education is > "subject-specific works". That is how universities divide themselves up: > different schools run independently but under the broad "brand" of a single > institution. > > The Wiki Foundation is your broad brand. > > If Wikibooks is "a place to build just about any non-fiction reference book > with, and this is critical, a finite end size (if you want to explore a > subject area in more detail than that, start other books). The 'finite' part > excludes potentially huge or even practically infinitely-sized things such > as a general quote book, dictionary, or encyclopedia." There is immediately > an exclusion since there are, potentially, an infinite number of different > types of businesses. Take a walk down any main street in even the smallest > town and the number of different businesses present runs into the hundreds. > > I'm also not too sure about "They have limited potential in terms of both > readers and participation." By this line of reasoning, you could argue that any subject-specific work deserves its own project. I'm not arguing that a business wiki along these lines is inherently a bad idea - just that it's most unsuitable for a seperate project under the Wikimedia banner. As I said previously, I think it could well be suited to setting up an installation of MediaWiki (the open-source software that runs all the Wikimedia projects) on a business website. Or, alternatively, you could do as that paragraph says, and just create a second book when necessary. Virtually any literate person is capable of adding material to Wikipedia, Wikinews, Wikiquote, or Wikisource. Wiktionary has similar general appeal, if not so complete, and many people can edit Wikibooks due to its diverse nature. It's these projects, with their diverse appeal, that are Wikimedia's mainstay. This just isn't the case with *any* of these subject-specific works. It's also interesting to note that arguably the two least successful projects at this point - Wiktionary and Wikibooks (and the complete failure of Wikispecies, which I don't even count) - are those that perhaps not everyone is capable of adding material to. I wish you luck with this - be it at Wikibooks or Wikicities, but I will strongly oppose this project becoming one of Wikimedia's. Wikispecies was an abomination, and I'm determined to do my best to see that the mistake isn't repeated. -- ambi From maveric149 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 2 01:20:03 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 17:20:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Requests for new Wiki projects In-Reply-To: <1107303235.42001b43244e1@webmail.epsfh.com> Message-ID: <20050202012003.61006.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> --- willtop31 at epsfh.com wrote: > ===Working title=== > *Link to proposal on mailing list: [http://mail.wikipedia.org/] > *Naming suggestions: ElectroWiki Wikitronics Wikital > *Domain name: Electrowiki.org > *Scope: A place to gather international standards for electricity, > electronics, > and robotics. Instead of paying large sums of money to the IEEE and ISO for > access to their standards. > *Details: Electronics and electrical Wikipedia. This project will grow as > student contribute and use it as a resource for studying electronics, > alternative energy, and robotics. > *Proposer: Craig Topham > *People interested joining: > Students of Lane Community College Electronic Technology Programs. Eugene, > Oregon U.S.A Sounds like it would make for a great set of books on Wikibooks. -- mav __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From robin.shannon at gmail.com Wed Feb 2 04:14:08 2005 From: robin.shannon at gmail.com (Robin Shannon) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 15:14:08 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] re: Project Wikineur In-Reply-To: <53091267050201155167332ead@mail.gmail.com> References: <006b01c5085a$bc543040$617219c4@genetrix> <53091267050201155167332ead@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <623d7338050201201448870d45@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:51:01 +1100, Rebecca wrote: > Virtually any literate person is capable of adding material to > Wikipedia, Wikinews, Wikiquote, or Wikisource. Wiktionary has similar > general appeal, if not so complete, and many people can edit Wikibooks > due to its diverse nature. It's these projects, with their diverse > appeal, that are Wikimedia's mainstay. This just isn't the case with > *any* of these subject-specific works. It's also interesting to note > that arguably the two least successful projects at this point - > Wiktionary and Wikibooks (and the complete failure of Wikispecies, > which I don't even count) - are those that perhaps not everyone is > capable of adding material to. Can, i just add a little off topic plug for wiktionary here. I think that it has really improved over the last year, and while still not a real threat to the oxford, its getting to be quite useful to people (such as myself) who are interested in translating things between languages. To anyone who hasn't looked at wiktionary lately id suggest having a gander, cause i think its just freaking awesome, and that in another 4 or 5 years, the OED will be as obsolete as the britanica is now. But yes ambi, you are right about it having a smaller possible base of users, since some basic knowledge of how languages work is needed for a lot of the work they do over there. paz y amor ~~~~ -- hit me: robin.shannon.id.au jab me: saudade at jabber.zim.net.au This work is licensed under the Creative Commons Recombo Plus License. To view a copy of this license, visit http://creativecommons.org/licenses/sampling+/1.0/ From anthere9 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 2 05:59:07 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 21:59:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] (no subject) Message-ID: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> Hello all This week, I will go to a meeting in France about sustainable development and new technologies. There should be many interesting people, some of them already know us and are already trying to set collaborations with us. There should be discussions about how new technologies could help underdevelopped countries, or about structuring information on internet (semantic web, thesaurus, dictionaries...), or about how to improve accuracy of information available on the net, open source software, collaborative platforms, e-learning etc... This will last two days, but I could only find one day to get there infortunately. At least, I chose the one probably most interesting for us. The organiser of the meeting (Michel Giran of Planetecologie) invited me for free and will provide room on his own booth for Wikipedia (booth and registration was 500 euros otherwise...). Normally, a poster was done with our logo on it. I spent the last few days fighting with software to manage to print business cards and leaflets, and must say I am *very* proud of the result (eh :-)). The resulting leaflet is informative, colorful, high quality printing and fun. I hope other people will use it as well. Normally, they should not need any update for a reasonable number of months, and if necessary, update under Quark Xpress should be easy (as long as you do not try to mix old macintosh software and recent PC software... but never mind). When I came back from Algeria, I had a whole set of pictures (only part of them have been uploaded yet and none is labelled :-)). Among these pictures, a photo of flower of the Thora Thora, a tree which may be found in Sahara. I just put the picture on my user page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/user:Anthere) A few days later, I found that the picture on the french wikipedia has flowered in a full article about the thora thora, which I discover, is also known under the sweet name : Pommier de Sodome (see the reason for this name on the french article...). Thanks Jeantosti : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pommier_de_Sodome I could not resist taking this article as an example, for being about african flora, for being a very nice example of our botanic section, and for the little cultural background. And also, because it was enough that I put a picture on my user page for this article to miraculously appear. Anyway, the resulting pdf which may be printed is about one mega in size. Where could I host it so that other people might use it later to print more leaflets if they wish so ? Second point is that I had unfortunately to rework James business cards, because ... of non-operability between european format and american format :-( So, now I do have on my computer a high quality Wikimedia logo and business card models in european format (adobe illustrator files) which could be easily reused if needed. Again, where could I host this so to avoid that anyone has to do this job another time. Between James cards and mine, we shoud cover 99% of usual format (I might mention that I basically followed James design at first, but finally made a couple of changes). Ant __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From perrin at apotheon.com Wed Feb 2 15:36:32 2005 From: perrin at apotheon.com (Chad Perrin) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 10:36:32 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4200F380.7030900@apotheon.com> Anthere wrote: > Anyway, the resulting pdf which may be printed is > about one mega in size. Where could I host it so that > other people might use it later to print more leaflets > if they wish so ? Is this just a general request for someone to offer to host it on a web server somewhere, or are you looking to connect it to the Wikimedia family of sites somewhere (or are you asking something else entirely)? If the former, I've got a little webspace and bandwidth to spare. -- Chad From nsk2 at wikinerds.org Wed Feb 2 18:45:37 2005 From: nsk2 at wikinerds.org (NSK) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 20:45:37 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <4200F380.7030900@apotheon.com> References: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> <4200F380.7030900@apotheon.com> Message-ID: <200502022045.37618.nsk2@wikinerds.org> On Wednesday 02 February 2005 17:36, Chad Perrin wrote: > If the former, I've got a little webspace and bandwidth to spare. I have also some spare webspace/bandwidth. See http://portal.wikinerds.org/freehosting -- NSK http://portal.wikinerds.org From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Thu Feb 3 16:17:11 2005 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 11:17:11 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Main Page vandalism, emergency modes, and image checking Message-ID: <742dfd060502030817e234b68@mail.gmail.com> The Main Page on en: was vandalized yesterday, when a penis image remained on the page for many minutes. It was vandalized again today -- a goatse image remained there for almost /20 minutes/. Today it happened during a particularly slow time of the morning, around 14:35 UTC, perhaps in combination with other use of the site that slowed it down. It was noticed quickly, but it took a good 17 minutes for it to be successfully deleted once the problem had been announced on IRC, by the seemingly-omniscient Jimmy Wales. While everyone was fretting over the site's slowness, a few problems presented themselves: * There was no one-click way to remove or delete an image * There was no packaged way to shut down all access to the site in an emergency * There was no packaged way to quickly redirect all visitors (to en:, say) to another site or page * There was no way to bring the site[s] to (or restart the site in) an 'emergency mode' that only allowed limited access (say, by logged-in users) ** Even had there been such a way, there were few (only 1-2) people with shell access who would have been able to run shell scripts, and it took an extra minute or two to get someone's attention. * There were a limited number of ways to reach the collection of devs to let them know there was an emergency. This was not the worst emergency in the world, so the last point in particular was not as big a deal as it might have been. =========== Possible solutions: 1) Documentation: write down a standard way to quickly block all incoming requests / take down a site in an emergency / put up in its place a try-back-soon message or redirection to a static snapshot (see 3) 2) Code: add an 'emergency mode' that redirects all visitors to a static read-only snapshot of the site taken once a day 2.1) Code: add a text-only mode that only produces text 2.2) Code: add a one-click (js widget?) option [maybe 2 clicks with some kind of pop-up confirmation that doesn't require rendering another whole WP-page] so that even when the site is very slow, evil images can be deleted in under 15 minutes 2.3) More Code: add a different 'emergency mode' that only allows a limited set of users [logged-in users? users on a specific list?] to use the site. 3) Code + Image Policy: add an IMAGE REVIEW step that imposes a time delay (or requires user approval) before an image can be displayed live on a page [until then the image could still be linked to via an html link] 4) Offer pagers and implantable homing devices to devs who are going to be in the vicinity of computers anyway and are willing to be on-call for certain parts of the day; something more reliable than the blinking of an IRC window. ============ 1), 2), and 3) seem important to me. 2) also has useful implications for periods of deep sloth, and for taking things down to make changes. 3) addresses many problems we are having, not just on the main page. Please comment or suggest implementations. -- +sj+ From robert_horning at netzero.net Fri Feb 4 01:04:35 2005 From: robert_horning at netzero.net (Robert Scott Horning) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 18:04:35 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikistandards (was Requests for new Wiki projects) References: <20050202012003.61006.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4202CA23.4020201@netzero.net> Daniel Mayer wrote: >--- willtop31 at epsfh.com wrote: > > >>===Working title=== >>*Link to proposal on mailing list: [http://mail.wikipedia.org/] >>*Naming suggestions: ElectroWiki Wikitronics Wikital >>*Domain name: Electrowiki.org >>*Scope: A place to gather international standards for electricity, >>electronics, >>and robotics. Instead of paying large sums of money to the IEEE and ISO for >>access to their standards. >>*Details: Electronics and electrical Wikipedia. This project will grow as >>student contribute and use it as a resource for studying electronics, >>alternative energy, and robotics. >>*Proposer: Craig Topham >>*People interested joining: >>Students of Lane Community College Electronic Technology Programs. Eugene, >>Oregon U.S.A >> >> > >Sounds like it would make for a great set of books on Wikibooks. > >-- mav > > I had set up a previous proposal for something somewhat similar, with a strong emphasis on computer science and electronics, but more broadly done to support standards in other areas as well. Look at this link for more details of the proposal: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikistandards I've been lurking on the mailing list for awhile now mainly to avoid upsetting the existing power structure. Since this subject is being brought up, I might as well go "public" and ask on this mailing list as well. There are a number of aspects of this proposal that are important to keep in mind: * Avoid duplicating work on already free standards. That would include most of what happens with the W3C group, as well as ITEF with the RFC internet standards. Work on new standards should merely reference these existing standards where necessary. It isn't even worth the bother of trying to mirror these standards, unless there is a very serious concern that these public domain standards are going to be withdrawn from public consumption. * Some new standards documents need to be created. Some of this is advertising (Hey! We are here and can offer you a forum to put your standard together!), and a need to find people who want to come together and develop standards. The creation of a standards document is usually to scratch an itch, where there has been some confusion in the past, and to help with interoperability issues, i.e. trying to get two pieces of equipment to work together or two pieces of software to understand shared data. I've developed several in-house standards documents for my employers in the past, and often it is these minor standards that can be useful if you can find a place to have them available. Basically, we need to find what kinds of standards need to be developed, and start putting them together. * Indexing existing standards: There are a number of standards that are already available, and when you are starting a new project it is always better to follow an existing standard than try to make something new up on your own. A good "beginning" to get a project like this started would be to simply do a survey of existing standards documents that are freely available on the internet. Classifying and creating various indexes to link to these standards would be very valuable in its own right. Hopefully, if it is a resource being used some of the people interested in creating standards would look at the index, and if the existing documents don't seem to fit the task or need a new document could be created. A wiki is a very natural way to accomplish this task. There is more that I put into the proposal wiki page, but I think this is a real quick overview of what I am proposing. BTW, wholesale copying of IEEE or ISO standards would be essentially forbidden, unless the express written consent of the original standards author(s) is willing to independently provide a copyright license that is compatable with the GFDL. The typical ISO copyright does not allow for this, and often can be more draconian than even a typical Microsoft EULA. Be extra careful if you even have more than a printed library of ISO documents. There are also some very complicated software and electronic patent issues that you need to be aware of if you try to deal with IEEE or ISO standards as well. This is also true of RFCs to a lesser extent, but the W3C group has been pretty good (up until now) about making sure that to the best of their knowledge there are no patent issues on any of their documents. As far as getting students involved, it would be a very educational (as in learning from the School of Very Hard Knocks) for college students to get involved even with the simplest of standards documentation. You know you are in trouble when you argue for over three hours wheither you should have a semi-colon in one place or another. I would imagine that discussion pages on some of these standards documents could get quite lengthy and heated if done as a wikipedia project. The awsome thing about doing it in this manner is that you can join in the development of these standards even though you don't have a PhD at the end of your name, or that you aren't working for an exclusive group of companies that deliberately try to exclude other individuals, even if those other people really do know the technology. Originally I proposed this in its own seperate domain, but to start with I'd love to simply make this a sub-project on wikibooks, with the near-term interest of making it a seperate sub-domain of wikibooks. That wasn't my idea, but now that I've seen what and how things are put together here I think this is a more logical approach. It really isn't a bunch of textbooks, as is the original focus of wikibooks, but it is a bunch of book-like things that are organized in a very similar approach. If there are people interested in getting an independent wiki-based standards group going, please let me know. I think there is a real need for this in general, and I've seen the issues regarding the development and use of standards documents really affect quite a few people. When you need a public and free standard, it is worth its weight in gold. Litterally, if you print it out on gold foil, people would gladly pay more than that just to have the document. I'm not kidding. This is also one area that corporate sponsors might help with the subsidizing of Wikimedia projects, even if they don't have direct banner ads or other forms of blatent advertising. Simply having these documents available might just be enough, and I could even make a reasonable presentation to show it would be in a company's interest to provide this sponsorship, done as an engineering expense, not adverstising expense. I digress here though with the financial aspects... -- Robert Scott Horning From maveric149 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 4 03:32:49 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 19:32:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikistandards (was Requests for new Wiki projects) In-Reply-To: <4202CA23.4020201@netzero.net> Message-ID: <20050204033249.84006.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Robert Scott Horning wrote: > Originally I proposed this in its own seperate domain, but to start with > I'd love to simply make this a sub-project on wikibooks, with the > near-term interest of making it a seperate sub-domain of wikibooks. > That wasn't my idea, but now that I've seen what and how things are put > together here I think this is a more logical approach. It really isn't > a bunch of textbooks, as is the original focus of wikibooks, but it is a > bunch of book-like things that are organized in a very similar approach. Don't give up so easily. :) What I really don't like are subject-specific ideas for projects (different subjects can be handled through internal WikiProjects). You, however, implied a general approach which I liked the sound of (a wiki devoted to all different types of standards). That may be a viable concept - it may not. But there is nothing wrong with proving the concept on Wikibooks if that project's format and goals fit well-enough - could make for a series of nice books/booklets. You may also find that there is no need for a separate project. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From kylelutze at cox.net Fri Feb 4 03:50:47 2005 From: kylelutze at cox.net (kylelutze) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 19:50:47 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikistandards (was Requests for new Wiki projects) In-Reply-To: <20050204033249.84006.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050204033249.84006.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4202F117.9050002@cox.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I'm not sure wikibooks is the best place to start, but a wikistandards site is definitely something I'm interested in. There's only a couple of problems I see with it. As it is a wiki, and some of these standards are rather important, if somebody puts some false info into a standard, and people start using it while most others are using the correct one, this could lead to problems. The other is copyright infringements being made easily because some fool decides to post standards to a closed source project(I don't know if there is an easy legal way around this). Kyle Daniel Mayer wrote: | --- Robert Scott Horning wrote: | |>Originally I proposed this in its own seperate domain, but to start with |>I'd love to simply make this a sub-project on wikibooks, with the |>near-term interest of making it a seperate sub-domain of wikibooks. |> That wasn't my idea, but now that I've seen what and how things are put |>together here I think this is a more logical approach. It really isn't |>a bunch of textbooks, as is the original focus of wikibooks, but it is a |>bunch of book-like things that are organized in a very similar approach. | | | Don't give up so easily. :) | | What I really don't like are subject-specific ideas for projects (different | subjects can be handled through internal WikiProjects). You, however, implied a | general approach which I liked the sound of (a wiki devoted to all different | types of standards). | | That may be a viable concept - it may not. But there is nothing wrong with | proving the concept on Wikibooks if that project's format and goals fit | well-enough - could make for a series of nice books/booklets. You may also | find that there is no need for a separate project. | | -- mav | | | | __________________________________ | Do you Yahoo!? | Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. | http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 | _______________________________________________ | foundation-l mailing list | foundation-l at wikimedia.org | http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCAvEXqTDXh8jUGRYRAqHKAKDn6lHd/4GyuLSOd+vDAKFjapFWMwCfdG64 /Z2nSReL4r1MQ23yCMqiHyE= =d6yV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From saintonge at telus.net Fri Feb 4 08:18:19 2005 From: saintonge at telus.net (Ray Saintonge) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 00:18:19 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Lista Wildsteina Message-ID: <42032FCB.1050801@telus.net> The following is the beginning of a discussion on Wikisource. This arose when the contributor sought to have some pages deleted as part of a rearrangement of the material. > "Lista Wildsteina" is a hot subject in Poland these days - it's a list > of people who used to collaborate with former secret service agencies > or were their victims, that's why it provokes various unwanted > reactions - it can't be exactly stated who was a secret agent and who > was a victim. After it is published here, possibly by Ausir - a > registered user - you should put a protection log on all its parts so > that people won't modify it. Consider it, please. With regards, Selena > von Eichendorf > 12:32, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC) > > The above description leaves me very concerned about whether we > should have this kind of material at all. My first impression is > that it is a list of people who are alleged to have participated > in certain kinds of wrongdoing. In the absence of further evidence > I would consider this material a defamatory and libellous attack > on the people listed. It is effectively a long series of personal > attacks, and contrary to Wikimedia policy on that basis. The > Wikimedia should have no role in the spreading of this kind of > thing. I cannot comment at this time about what implications the > material might carry under United States law. > > Secondarily, there is no indication about who produced this list, > and whether the author has released the material under GFDL. > Eclecticology > 07:31, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC) > The subject has already generated considerable controversy on the Polish Wikipedia, though I do not understan Polish so I am unable to follow that discussion. The material that has been placed on Wikisource after a brief explanation in Polish is a list of names accompanied by what seems to be a file number for each.. I believe that publishing this kind of material (assuming that I have interpreted what I see correctly) is utterly wrong in every respect. If the effect would be to make Wikimedia complicit in any kind of revenge against these alleged collaborators, we would need to share the guilt for whatever form such revenge might take. Unless I am advised that I have completely misinterpreted the material I propose to delete it all beginning tomorrow evening. Ec From fallout at lexx.eu.org Fri Feb 4 10:12:12 2005 From: fallout at lexx.eu.org (=?Windows-1250?B?UGF3ZbMgJ0F1c2lyJyBEZW1ib3dza2k=?=) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 11:12:12 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Lista Wildsteina In-Reply-To: <42032FCB.1050801@telus.net> References: <42032FCB.1050801@telus.net> Message-ID: <497671410.20050204111212@lexx.eu.org> After the debate, I think it'd indeed be best to delete it (at least for now). -- Ausir Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia http://pl.wikipedia.org From fredbaud at ctelco.net Fri Feb 4 12:12:55 2005 From: fredbaud at ctelco.net (Fred Bauder) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 05:12:55 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Lista Wildsteina In-Reply-To: <42032FCB.1050801@telus.net> Message-ID: The security services in the Soviet Bloc were corrupt; names, actions and information were included simply to meet quotas, names of people who had no connection whatever with totalitarian activities. Fred > From: Ray Saintonge > Reply-To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List > Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 00:18:19 -0800 > To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List > Subject: [Foundation-l] Lista Wildsteina > > I believe that publishing this kind of material (assuming that I have > interpreted what I see correctly) is utterly wrong in every respect. If > the effect would be to make Wikimedia complicit in any kind of revenge > against these alleged collaborators, we would need to share the guilt > for whatever form such revenge might take. > > Unless I am advised that I have completely misinterpreted the material I > propose to delete it all beginning tomorrow evening. > > Ec From robert_horning at netzero.net Fri Feb 4 18:55:14 2005 From: robert_horning at netzero.net (Robert Scott Horning) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 11:55:14 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikistandards (was Requests for new Wiki projects) References: <20050204033249.84006.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> <4202F117.9050002@cox.net> Message-ID: <4203C512.7060107@netzero.net> kylelutze wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > I'm not sure wikibooks is the best place to start, but a wikistandards > site is definitely something I'm interested in. There's only a couple of > problems I see with it. As it is a wiki, and some of these standards are > rather important, if somebody puts some false info into a standard, and > people start using it while most others are using the correct one, this > could lead to problems. The other is copyright infringements being made > easily because some fool decides to post standards to a closed source > project(I don't know if there is an easy legal way around this). > > Kyle > I don't think that this is nearly so much of a problem. There would eventually have to be some way to "freeze" a standard so only admins or trusted individuals would be able to make minor changes to the standard. This would happen when a standard is considered "complete" by the group putting the standard out, and would be a community decision. The point there is precisely that you don't want people inserting something into the standard after people are trying to implement it. The "new" version (2.0 or whatever) certainly should be modifyable, and that would be no different than any other wikimedia project... subject to vandalism like any other wiki page. Trust me, most parts of a standard are going to have some extreame scrutiny in it, and it is more likely that people are going to be inserting "false" history into mainline wikipedia entries, and getting away with it, than somebody inserting false specifications into a standard. Page history will also be a good tool to find out just who did what, and would be used quite often in the process of standards development. I think editing wars where two groups of people keep putting their "changes" into the standard would be more of a headache, and trying to "lock out" the other group. As far as copyright violations, again this is just like copyright violations for any other part of all of the Wikimedia projects. Indeed, I think it would be much easier for community members involved with something like Wikistandards to be able to identify copyright violations than would be the case for multimedia items like images or sound clips. Those who work regularly with these standards would be able to identify immediately when something has been copied illegally and it would be fairly easy and straight forward to delete that content. It would be important, however, to remind new users to Wikistandards that they should avoid copyright violations, particularly existing standards that have clear copyright like ISO standards. One potential legal hassle that would be unique to Wikistandards would be a group trying to reverse-engineer an existing standard. Clearly the copyright would be under the GFDL (or whatever is reasonable.... this isn't a huge issue in this case), but there would be some other legal minefields like the DCMA or the Patriot Act (in the USA) that might come into play and kill the project, with possible arrest of participants in the reverse engineering process. Of secondary concern would be people who have been "contaminated" by seeing the original specification (closed, propritary, and subject to Non-disclosure agreements) and then putting some of that original copyrighted specification into the reverse engineering effort. Or worse yet, the company(ies) involved with the original spec deliberately contaminating the reverse engineering spec and through that killing the spec. I'm not even sure what policies should be reasonable to try and avoid these issues. I do think groups like the EFF and Groklaw would get heavily involved if legal issues did come up, particularly if individuals arrested were otherwise innocent participants in the process. Indeed, such arrests would make major headlines, particularly among "geek" news sources like Slashdot or Wired. The only reason I'm suggesting to start through Wikibooks is only because these are already book-like projects, and it is a good way to bootstrap the whole thing to see if it can be a viable project on its own. Even if Wikistandards die and doesn't do too well, the content can be maintained by the existing Wikibooks community, even if it is an ugly step child. -- Robert Scott Horning 218 Sunstone Circle Logan, UT 84321 (435) 753-3330 robert_horning at netzero.net From robert_horning at netzero.net Fri Feb 4 18:53:56 2005 From: robert_horning at netzero.net (Robert Scott Horning) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 11:53:56 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikistandards (was Requests for new Wiki projects) References: <20050204033249.84006.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> <4202F117.9050002@cox.net> Message-ID: <4203C4C4.9030608@netzero.net> kylelutze wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > I'm not sure wikibooks is the best place to start, but a wikistandards > site is definitely something I'm interested in. There's only a couple of > problems I see with it. As it is a wiki, and some of these standards are > rather important, if somebody puts some false info into a standard, and > people start using it while most others are using the correct one, this > could lead to problems. The other is copyright infringements being made > easily because some fool decides to post standards to a closed source > project(I don't know if there is an easy legal way around this). > > Kyle > I don't think that this is nearly so much of a problem. There would eventually have to be some way to "freeze" a standard so only admins or trusted individuals would be able to make minor changes to the standard. This would happen when a standard is considered "complete" by the group putting the standard out, and would be a community decision. The point there is precisely that you don't want people inserting something into the standard after people are trying to implement it. The "new" version (2.0 or whatever) certainly should be modifyable, and that would be no different than any other wikimedia project... subject to vandalism like any other wiki page. Trust me, most parts of a standard are going to have some extreame scrutiny in it, and it is more likely that people are going to be inserting "false" history into mainline wikipedia entries, and getting away with it, than somebody inserting false specifications into a standard. Page history will also be a good tool to find out just who did what, and would be used quite often in the process of standards development. I think editing wars where two groups of people keep putting their "changes" into the standard would be more of a headache, and trying to "lock out" the other group. As far as copyright violations, again this is just like copyright violations for any other part of all of the Wikimedia projects. Indeed, I think it would be much easier for community members involved with something like Wikistandards to be able to identify copyright violations than would be the case for multimedia items like images or sound clips. Those who work regularly with these standards would be able to identify immediately when something has been copied illegally and it would be fairly easy and straight forward to delete that content. It would be important, however, to remind new users to Wikistandards that they should avoid copyright violations, particularly existing standards that have clear copyright like ISO standards. One potential legal hassle that would be unique to Wikistandards would be a group trying to reverse-engineer an existing standard. Clearly the copyright would be under the GFDL (or whatever is reasonable.... this isn't a huge issue in this case), but there would be some other legal minefields like the DCMA or the Patriot Act (in the USA) that might come into play and kill the project, with possible arrest of participants in the reverse engineering process. Of secondary concern would be people who have been "contaminated" by seeing the original specification (closed, propritary, and subject to Non-disclosure agreements) and then putting some of that original copyrighted specification into the reverse engineering effort. Or worse yet, the company(ies) involved with the original spec deliberately contaminating the reverse engineering spec and through that killing the spec. I'm not even sure what policies should be reasonable to try and avoid these issues. I do think groups like the EFF and Groklaw would get heavily involved if legal issues did come up, particularly if individuals arrested were otherwise innocent participants in the process. Indeed, such arrests would make major headlines, particularly among "geek" news sources like Slashdot or Wired. The only reason I'm suggesting to start through Wikibooks is only because these are already book-like projects, and it is a good way to bootstrap the whole thing to see if it can be a viable project on its own. Even if Wikistandards die and doesn't do too well, the content can be maintained by the existing Wikibooks community, even if it is an ugly step child. -- Robert Scott Horning 218 Sunstone Circle Logan, UT 84321 (435) 753-3330 robert_horning at netzero.net From EarthStorm at gmx.net Sat Feb 5 04:06:20 2005 From: EarthStorm at gmx.net (David Bruhn) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 20:06:20 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] New Project Message-ID: <4204463C.1060506@gmx.net> I've proposed a new project, Wikibate . Come check it out. - David Bruhn From kylelutze at cox.net Sat Feb 5 06:04:10 2005 From: kylelutze at cox.net (kylelutze) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 22:04:10 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] New Project In-Reply-To: <4204463C.1060506@gmx.net> References: <4204463C.1060506@gmx.net> Message-ID: <420461DA.1030804@cox.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 This is more or less what the discussion area should be for. this goes back to that topic a while ago where I think this is just another unnecessary split off. That's just my thoughts anyways Kyle David Bruhn wrote: | I've proposed a new project, Wikibate | . Come check it out. | | - David Bruhn | | | _______________________________________________ | foundation-l mailing list | foundation-l at wikimedia.org | http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCBGHaqTDXh8jUGRYRAnN5AJ4lncOLhT7SKc5vDgFFpv0UxYMIFgCbBwxr wEzFALjpQssgGa17e3H2+D0= =dlPA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nsk2 at wikinerds.org Sat Feb 5 06:46:43 2005 From: nsk2 at wikinerds.org (NSK) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 08:46:43 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] New Project In-Reply-To: <4204463C.1060506@gmx.net> References: <4204463C.1060506@gmx.net> Message-ID: <200502050846.43377.nsk2@wikinerds.org> On Saturday 05 February 2005 06:06, David Bruhn wrote: > I've proposed a new project, Wikibate Well, the problem with debate projects is where to set their limits: - would you accept neonazis to disseminate their ideas on it? - etc... How do you plan to solve this kind of problems and what limits are to considering to impose? -- NSK http://portal.wikinerds.org/slashdotting2005feb4 From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 5 08:43:34 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 09:43:34 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: promotional items (was no subject) References: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> <4200F380.7030900@apotheon.com> Message-ID: <42048736.1000801@yahoo.com> Thanks for the proposition Chad and NSK, but I had an idea. We are sharing many things, like articles. We coedit articles. We are not sharing all of our promotional items, and usually, we can not coedit them. As a result, we tend to do again what other people have already done, and generally, we lack promotional items. I invite you to look at this page : http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_promotion For those of us going outside to promote wikipedia, answering journalists, going to meetings, etc... it is not a very satisfying page. For example, at least 2 people have made business cards. But these models are not here. I know as a fact some leaflets are not here. I know italian made a nice one. I cannot see it. I made presentations of wikipedia. Many others did, but they cannot be reused if not listed here. One of mine is currently hosted by a craowiki editors, NOT on wikipedia. We have now great leaflets here, but they are not available, either in final version, or in workable version, because I have no easy hosting place. Elian told me we were cruelly lacking promotional items for FOSDEM. I think this is poor. We need to have access to the version of leaflets or business cards so we can improve them. We need to have access to leaflets in other languages so that when we go to multilingual events, we can provide a wide diversity of leaflets in several languages. So, here is my suggestion I would like that a little bit of room is planned on one of wikimedia servers to host all these promotional things. This is Jimbo and Angela to answer here. Second we need to have a way to upload this data on the server. So, possibly to have a contact person which can do it for us with no access to servers. This would be Brion to comment for example ? Third, I would like that accross all languages, we make an effort to gather all existing information, in degraded pdf version for email sending, in good pdf version for printing and in workable version (photoshop, illustrator, xpress, whatever). What do you think ? Anthere Chad Perrin a ?crit: > Anthere wrote: > >> Anyway, the resulting pdf which may be printed is >> about one mega in size. Where could I host it so that >> other people might use it later to print more leaflets >> if they wish so ? > > > Is this just a general request for someone to offer to host it on a web > server somewhere, or are you looking to connect it to the Wikimedia > family of sites somewhere (or are you asking something else entirely)? > If the former, I've got a little webspace and bandwidth to spare. > > -- > Chad From beesley at gmail.com Sat Feb 5 16:03:31 2005 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 16:03:31 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: promotional items (was no subject) In-Reply-To: <42048736.1000801@yahoo.com> References: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> <4200F380.7030900@apotheon.com> <42048736.1000801@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8b722b8005020508035869b755@mail.gmail.com> > I would like that a little bit of room is planned on one of wikimedia > servers to host all these promotional things. > Second we need to have a way to upload this data on the server. I completely agree. An easy way to implement this might be to extend the range of files on the upload whitelist for the foundation wiki. Since only trusted users can edit there, enabling .pdf, .ppt, and .sxi shouldn't cause any problems, and would allow anyone with an account there to upload leaflets and presentations. Angela. From elian at djini.de Sat Feb 5 16:30:05 2005 From: elian at djini.de (Elisabeth Bauer) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 17:30:05 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: promotional items (was no subject) In-Reply-To: <8b722b8005020508035869b755@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> <4200F380.7030900@apotheon.com> <42048736.1000801@yahoo.com> <8b722b8005020508035869b755@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4204F48D.3030905@djini.de> Angela wrote: >> I would like that a little bit of room is planned on one of wikimedia >> servers to host all these promotional things. >> Second we need to have a way to upload this data on the server. > > I completely agree. An easy way to implement this might be to extend > the range of files on the upload whitelist for the foundation wiki. > Since only trusted users can edit there, enabling .pdf, .ppt, and .sxi > shouldn't cause any problems, and would allow anyone with an account > there to upload leaflets and presentations. Please do that. For users without account we can also publish an email contact address there to which they can send stuff and someone who has a wiki account checks the files and uploads them. greetings, elian From erik_moeller at gmx.de Sun Feb 6 00:22:38 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 01:22:38 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikinews Chat log Message-ID: <4205634E.1050905@gmx.de> The "Wikinews and Blogs" chat was a big success with plenty of varied participants from the blog and wiki worlds. Lots of interesting ideas were exchanged, including Wikinews support for blogging tools, licensing issues, RSS, and a potential shared space for citizen journalists from different projects. If you missed it, you can read the log of the discussion here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews_Chat/2005/02/05/log Background info: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews_Chat I'm looking forward to more open chat events like this one. Thanks to everyone who made it possible. Regards, Erik From t.starling at physics.unimelb.edu.au Sun Feb 6 01:59:31 2005 From: t.starling at physics.unimelb.edu.au (Tim Starling) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 12:59:31 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Resignation as Developer Liaison Message-ID: <42057A03.80708@physics.unimelb.edu.au> When I was appointed Developer Liaison in July 2004, Brion was on a wikibreak of indefinite duration, and I was the second choice. The roles are now reversed -- I've decided to concentrate on my academic work for a while, and Brion is as active as he ever has been. Thus, I am resigning as Developer Liaison effective immediately. This position should be filled by someone able to give their full attention to the job. This should not be construed as an indication that I intend to stay away from Wikipedia for a longer period, it's merely a reflection of the present situation. Those who know me would be aware that I'm not particularly power-hungry, hence I'm not calling this a "temporary resignation". I'm happy to take my turn, and if need be I'll return to this position later by the ordinary process. -- Tim Starling From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 6 03:37:14 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 19:37:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Resignation as Developer Liaison In-Reply-To: <42057A03.80708@physics.unimelb.edu.au> Message-ID: <20050206033714.90005.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> -- Tim Starling wrote: > When I was appointed Developer Liaison in July 2004, Brion was on a > wikibreak of indefinite duration, and I was the second choice. The roles > are now reversed -- I've decided to concentrate on my academic work for > a while, and Brion is as active as he ever has been. Thus, I am > resigning as Developer Liaison effective immediately. This position > should be filled by someone able to give their full attention to the job. You will be sorely missed Tim. Good luck on your PhD and hurry back (at least during school breaks). :) Your friends here will be waiting for your return. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From daniwo59 at aol.com Sun Feb 6 03:38:41 2005 From: daniwo59 at aol.com (daniwo59 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 22:38:41 EST Subject: [Foundation-l] Resignation as Developer Liaison Message-ID: <149.3e7e60ce.2f36eb41@aol.com> I echo everything that Mav said. It is great to see you getting on with your life and your PhD, but we all hope to see you here every now and then. Danny From kylelutze at cox.net Sun Feb 6 05:11:48 2005 From: kylelutze at cox.net (kylelutze) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 21:11:48 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Resignation as Developer Liaison In-Reply-To: <42057A03.80708@physics.unimelb.edu.au> References: <42057A03.80708@physics.unimelb.edu.au> Message-ID: <4205A714.80507@cox.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Good luck Tim, and hope you succeed (and put your knowledge to good use writing wikipedia article of course ;) ). Hope to see you back Kyle Tim Starling wrote: | When I was appointed Developer Liaison in July 2004, Brion was on a | wikibreak of indefinite duration, and I was the second choice. The roles | are now reversed -- I've decided to concentrate on my academic work for | a while, and Brion is as active as he ever has been. Thus, I am | resigning as Developer Liaison effective immediately. This position | should be filled by someone able to give their full attention to the job. | | This should not be construed as an indication that I intend to stay away | from Wikipedia for a longer period, it's merely a reflection of the | present situation. Those who know me would be aware that I'm not | particularly power-hungry, hence I'm not calling this a "temporary | resignation". I'm happy to take my turn, and if need be I'll return to | this position later by the ordinary process. | | -- Tim Starling | _______________________________________________ | foundation-l mailing list | foundation-l at wikimedia.org | http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCBacUqTDXh8jUGRYRAvRoAKCNUb8A90akO62WtmrmnQ298NB2FwCgwHor h3BZxxdEuYGvW2YiMEUyLwg= =sWYX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From walter at vankalken.net Sun Feb 6 07:04:05 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 14:04:05 +0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Resignation as Developer Liaison In-Reply-To: <42057A03.80708@physics.unimelb.edu.au> References: <42057A03.80708@physics.unimelb.edu.au> Message-ID: <4205C165.9060501@vankalken.net> Good luck on your studies mate! Waerth From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 6 08:26:33 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 09:26:33 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: promotional items (was no subject) References: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> <4200F380.7030900@apotheon.com> <42048736.1000801@yahoo.com> <8b722b8005020508035869b755@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4205D4B9.1010402@yahoo.com> Angela a ?crit: >>I would like that a little bit of room is planned on one of wikimedia >>servers to host all these promotional things. >>Second we need to have a way to upload this data on the server. > > > I completely agree. An easy way to implement this might be to extend > the range of files on the upload whitelist for the foundation wiki. > Since only trusted users can edit there, enabling .pdf, .ppt, and .sxi > shouldn't cause any problems, and would allow anyone with an account > there to upload leaflets and presentations. > > Angela. I would prefer that this is done on meta rather than foundation. But the foundation site is display of what we show outside. The meta is about organisation. It seems to me to be the right place where it should be. Leaflets, business cards and such are items for organisation purposes. This is also the reason why the promotion page is on meta, and not on foundation. Besides, there are two few people registered on the foundation for this to be correct. And finally, editors can promote wikipedia without necessarily be linked to foundation. If necessary, we can limit this ability to sysops only on meta. Anthere From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 6 09:17:37 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 10:17:37 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Resignation as Developer Liaison References: <42057A03.80708@physics.unimelb.edu.au> Message-ID: <4205E0B1.7000909@yahoo.com> Nod. We plan wikipedia to be there for a very very very long time. You may plan to be on Earth for at least 60 more years. I am sure you can take a "serious" break and come back. I miss you though :-( ant From elian at djini.de Sun Feb 6 12:05:49 2005 From: elian at djini.de (Elisabeth Bauer) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 13:05:49 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Resignation as Developer Liaison In-Reply-To: <42057A03.80708@physics.unimelb.edu.au> References: <42057A03.80708@physics.unimelb.edu.au> Message-ID: <4206081D.4000705@djini.de> Hiho, Tim Starling wrote: > When I was appointed Developer Liaison in July 2004, Brion was on a > wikibreak of indefinite duration, and I was the second choice. The roles > are now reversed -- I've decided to concentrate on my academic work for > a while, and Brion is as active as he ever has been. Thus, I am > resigning as Developer Liaison effective immediately. Saying the same like the ones who posted before: Many many thanks for all the good work you did and good luck for your PhD project. *missing you* elian -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 186 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20050206/dd01abdb/attachment.pgp From christiaan at last-straw.net Sun Feb 6 16:39:39 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 16:39:39 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikinews logo - runoff to choose final version Message-ID: A runoff is being held to choose the new Wikinews logo. You can vote here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews_logo_contest_voting/Runoff Can someone please post this to the Wikinews mailing list? Christiaan From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 6 17:31:03 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 18:31:03 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Wikinews logo - runoff to choose final version References: Message-ID: <42065457.70602@yahoo.com> in a runoff vote, can we vote against a logo or only approve ? May we vote for only one or several logos ? Anthere Christiaan Briggs a ?crit: > A runoff is being held to choose the new Wikinews logo. You can vote here: > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews_logo_contest_voting/Runoff > > Can someone please post this to the Wikinews mailing list? > > Christiaan From erik_moeller at gmx.de Sun Feb 6 17:48:14 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 18:48:14 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Wikinews logo - runoff to choose final version In-Reply-To: <42065457.70602@yahoo.com> References: <42065457.70602@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4206585E.6040209@gmx.de> Anthere schrieb: > in a runoff vote, can we vote against a logo or only approve ? > May we vote for only one or several logos ? I've clarified the rules to say that you can vote for exactly one logo and against exactly one logo. Regards, Erik From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 6 18:01:58 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 19:01:58 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Wikinews logo - runoff to choose final version References: <42065457.70602@yahoo.com> <4206585E.6040209@gmx.de> Message-ID: <42065B96.6080500@yahoo.com> good, thanks Erik. Ant Erik Moeller a ?crit: > Anthere schrieb: > >> in a runoff vote, can we vote against a logo or only approve ? >> May we vote for only one or several logos ? > > > > I've clarified the rules to say that you can vote for exactly one logo > and against exactly one logo. > > Regards, > > Erik From erik_moeller at gmx.de Sun Feb 6 18:56:08 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 19:56:08 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikinews language creation rules modified Message-ID: <42066848.6000805@gmx.de> I have modified the rules at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews/Start_a_new_edition New: At least 3 signing users have to be Wikimedia regulars (>200 edits + 3 months participation in a project) in the language they vote on. Now formally written down: After creation, a message will be sent to wikinews-l, foundation-l and the Wikipedia Village Pump in that language. If these rules are acceptable, they should be merged into the policy for new languages. I also think the requirement of a "reporter" should be taken out, it seems somewhat over the top. On a different note, I am happy with the progress of the new editions. Swedish, Spanish and Dutch now have very professional looking homepages and a regular output of stories. Translation from one Wikinews edition into another seems to be more common than direct translation of Wikipedia articles. Regards, Erik From beesley at gmail.com Sun Feb 6 19:38:54 2005 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 19:38:54 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: promotional items (was no subject) In-Reply-To: <4205D4B9.1010402@yahoo.com> References: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> <4200F380.7030900@apotheon.com> <42048736.1000801@yahoo.com> <8b722b8005020508035869b755@mail.gmail.com> <4205D4B9.1010402@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8b722b80050206113816d25f88@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 09:26:33 +0100, Anthere wrote: > I would prefer that this is done on meta rather than foundation. The point of having it on the foundation wiki is that it would be very easy to add to the whitelist the filetypes which the leaflets and presentations are in, since only trusted users can upload there. On Meta, anyone can upload files, so it is less likely that these filetypes would be whitelisted there. > Besides, there are two few people registered on the foundation for this > to be correct. > If necessary, we can limit this ability to sysops only on meta. There are 41 users on the foundation wiki and 44 admins on meta, so even if there was a way to limit uploading of certain file types to admins, it wouldn't make much different in terms of the number of people able to do this. Angela. From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 6 19:54:04 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 20:54:04 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: promotional items (was no subject) References: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> <4200F380.7030900@apotheon.com> <42048736.1000801@yahoo.com> <8b722b8005020508035869b755@mail.gmail.com> <4205D4B9.1010402@yahoo.com> <8b722b80050206113816d25f88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <420675DC.4000001@yahoo.com> Angela a ?crit: > On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 09:26:33 +0100, Anthere wrote: > >>I would prefer that this is done on meta rather than foundation. > > > The point of having it on the foundation wiki is that it would be very > easy to add to the whitelist the filetypes which the leaflets and > presentations are in, since only trusted users can upload there. On > Meta, anyone can upload files, so it is less likely that these > filetypes would be whitelisted there. I understand that. >>Besides, there are two few people registered on the foundation for this >>to be correct. >>If necessary, we can limit this ability to sysops only on meta. > > > There are 41 users on the foundation wiki and 44 admins on meta, so > even if there was a way to limit uploading of certain file types to > admins, it wouldn't make much different in terms of the number of > people able to do this. > > Angela. I understand that as well, but I think meta is the place where we organise things all together. Not foundation. I wish we stick to what sites are made for. Second point : I do not think we should necessarily restrict communication handling to those part of foundation (hence with an account). Foundation is here to help wikipedia and related projects to develop, not to to handle their promotion. I think we should not do anything that might lead promotion to be only made by foundation people. People should feel entitled to do so. Third point : I just do not understand why editors could not just upload these files on meta; I see not where the risk is. Basically, if we have room on servers, why could not we simply host these files ? Why do we need to restrict this ? Where is the problem ? Ant From beesley at gmail.com Sun Feb 6 20:06:56 2005 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 20:06:56 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: promotional items (was no subject) In-Reply-To: <420675DC.4000001@yahoo.com> References: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> <4200F380.7030900@apotheon.com> <42048736.1000801@yahoo.com> <8b722b8005020508035869b755@mail.gmail.com> <4205D4B9.1010402@yahoo.com> <8b722b80050206113816d25f88@mail.gmail.com> <420675DC.4000001@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8b722b80050206120659273138@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 20:54:04 +0100, Anthere wrote: > I do not think we should necessarily restrict > communication handling to those part of foundation (hence with an account). I agree that we shouldn't restrict communication handling to those with accounts on the foundation wiki. It is just the upload of certain file types which are currently disallowed that we should be restricting. It is only the files themselves which would be uploaded by people on that wiki. Any discussion of them etc can happen on meta. > Basically, if we have room on servers, why could not we simply host > these files ? Why do we need to restrict this ? Where is the problem ? We can host them. We just can't allow anyone to upload potentially dangerous files. See Brion's email on this when pdf was first disallowed: http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2004-September/025472.html Angela. From robert_horning at netzero.net Sun Feb 6 20:45:12 2005 From: robert_horning at netzero.net (Robert Scott Horning) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 13:45:12 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikistandards (was Requests for new Wiki projects) References: Message-ID: <420681D8.2080602@netzero.net> C T wrote: >I am finding the real trick is to getting people involved. I have over a >year left in this academic program, and a lot can be accomplished in that >time frame. Especially with a classroom of participants. > >Besides this class and several others are in serious need of an educational >tool. To be apart of creating such a resource would have tremendous >benefits. > >If we build it, can it be integrated with something larger? > >Thanks, >Craig > > > The big advantage that working with a project like this, hosted by the Wikimedia foundation (or some other 3rd party), is that even when you move on to bigger and better things in your career, the items that you work on here will still be around. I have been involved with too many university or college projects that are really quite neat, but because of changes in administration policy, students graduating, or professors retiring, the servers that host these projects get turned off and the information from the project lost. The "Big Picture" of what I'm trying to do with Wikistandards is to provide resources that you don't have to pay extra money for just to be able to "peek" into how something works. From my experience, the more open and publicized a standard becomes, and the easier that a company or group of individuals has to be able to find and implement that standard, the more likely it will be used. Unfortunately there are a number of people who for various reasons want to shut down the spreading of knowledge, particularly hard-won engineering knowledge that is often supplied in standards documentation. It is also seldom, because of NDAs and quite expensive standards documents, that these propritary documents will make it into an educational setting. From the prespective of an instructor, it would still be useful to create specifications and standards documents in a classroom setting for projects that the class is working on. By having a resource like this where these standards are archived, students from other classs, or even other universities, could look at these ideas and build upon them. In some cases, perhaps you want to simplify a specification for a classroom setting to make it easier to implement, or to emphasis a particular design approach. Besides, there are many situations even in private industry where you are struggling to find and define standards for a project similar to what you are working on. Even if the standards document is poorly designed, it at least gives a starting point to start arguing what changes should be made and what things to improve. There is nothing worse than having a totally blank piece of paper and no previous experience to draw upon. I hope this is the "something larger" that you were looking for. I see a huge need for this as a commercial application engineer, and while my employers were willing to pay for ISO standards, it was still a major hassle to go through the red tape to get them purchased, especially since they were often viewed as a "capital expense" like paying for new compilers or design tools. While I see the industrial applications on a project like this, I can also see huge benefits from having educational institutions participate as well. I also want to point out that most of the early RFCs that form the foundation of the internet were written by college students, including undergraduates as well as grad students. Wouldn't it be neat if we could help become a catalyst for something else like the internet? -- Robert Scott Horning From christiaan at last-straw.net Sun Feb 6 21:51:43 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 21:51:43 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Script for transferring images from Wikipedia to Commons Message-ID: <4A66FE7C-7889-11D9-B1F0-0030658430F4@last-straw.net> Does anyone know how we go about getting this script implemented? http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Transfer_script Can you add any thoughts to the talk page rather than here? Thanks, Christiaan From erik_moeller at gmx.de Sun Feb 6 22:28:36 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 23:28:36 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Bulgarian Wikinews launched Message-ID: <42069A14.5090901@gmx.de> The Bulgarian edition of Wikinews is now set up at: http://bg.wikinews.org/ An announcement has been posted on the Bulgarian Wikipedia Village Pump, as well as on the user talk pages of all interested users (all users who signed up had user pages on bg:, and several had far more than 200 edits). I'd like to ask the Board to discuss in the meeting tomorrow what steps are required to decide whether the Chinese Wikinews should be launched. Regards, Erik From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Sun Feb 6 22:37:42 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 09:37:42 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: promotional items (was no subject) In-Reply-To: <8b722b80050206120659273138@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> <4200F380.7030900@apotheon.com> <42048736.1000801@yahoo.com> <8b722b8005020508035869b755@mail.gmail.com> <4205D4B9.1010402@yahoo.com> <8b722b80050206113816d25f88@mail.gmail.com> <420675DC.4000001@yahoo.com> <8b722b80050206120659273138@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050206223741.GD7930@thingy.apana.org.au> Angela (beesley at gmail.com) [050207 07:07]: > We can host them. We just can't allow anyone to upload potentially > dangerous files. See Brion's email on this when pdf was first > disallowed: http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2004-September/025472.html Oh, good lord. TEXT is forbidden?! /me curses IE's crackmonkey authors Looks like if I want SVG uploads on Commons I'll need to write a mathematically-watertight validity checker myself. Barring no new exploits found that use perfectly valid SVG files. Grah! - d. From brion at pobox.com Mon Feb 7 01:14:56 2005 From: brion at pobox.com (Brion Vibber) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 17:14:56 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: promotional items (was no subject) In-Reply-To: <8b722b8005020508035869b755@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> <4200F380.7030900@apotheon.com> <42048736.1000801@yahoo.com> <8b722b8005020508035869b755@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4206C110.8060601@pobox.com> Angela wrote: >>I would like that a little bit of room is planned on one of wikimedia >>servers to host all these promotional things. >>Second we need to have a way to upload this data on the server. > > I completely agree. An easy way to implement this might be to extend > the range of files on the upload whitelist for the foundation wiki. > Since only trusted users can edit there, enabling .pdf, .ppt, and .sxi > shouldn't cause any problems, and would allow anyone with an account > there to upload leaflets and presentations. .pdf and .sxi are on the upload whitelist for all Wikimedia wikis and have been for some time. -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 253 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20050206/f1cd7b7c/attachment.pgp From nsk2 at wikinerds.org Mon Feb 7 04:22:16 2005 From: nsk2 at wikinerds.org (NSK) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 06:22:16 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Copyright Message-ID: <200502070622.16462.nsk2@wikinerds.org> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:HURD_first_program_banner.jpg "This image or document is licensed under a Creative Commons License. Specifically, it is licensed under the Creative Commons ShareAlike License, colloquially known as "cc-sa"." I don't know where you found that it is CC-SA (BTW this isn't the licence a use), but if you somehow derived this info from my article, then please take a closer look and ensure you understood it right: http://portal.wikinerds.org/gnu-hurd-l4-first-program This image was found on http://www.marcus-brinkmann.org/banner.jpg I asked Marcus via email and he had no problem to use the pic on my site. I also asked at gnu.org about the Hurd logo and they told me it's freely redistributable. On the copyright notices posted on my article I say that only the text is CC-By-SA-2, the images are fair use. Please note that notices in individual articles override site-wide notices. In addition, my site is in a transitional period as we just started to allow multilicensing and using a page-based copyright scheme. Also, it would be better to cite as source the brinkmann's site and not my site, since I also got it from there. -- NSK http://portal.wikinerds.org/slashdotting2005feb4 From slowpoke at gmail.com Mon Feb 7 04:28:11 2005 From: slowpoke at gmail.com (Dori) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 22:28:11 -0600 Subject: [Foundation-l] Copyright In-Reply-To: <200502070622.16462.nsk2@wikinerds.org> References: <200502070622.16462.nsk2@wikinerds.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 06:22:16 +0200, NSK wrote: > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:HURD_first_program_banner.jpg You could't mention this at the page? I don't see how it's a foundation issue. -- [[en:User:Dori]] From anthere9 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 05:00:11 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 06:00:11 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: promotional items (was no subject) References: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> <4200F380.7030900@apotheon.com> <42048736.1000801@yahoo.com> <8b722b8005020508035869b755@mail.gmail.com> <4206C110.8060601@pobox.com> Message-ID: <4206F5DB.1090708@yahoo.com> Brion Vibber a ?crit: > Angela wrote: > >>> I would like that a little bit of room is planned on one of wikimedia >>> servers to host all these promotional things. >>> Second we need to have a way to upload this data on the server. >> >> >> I completely agree. An easy way to implement this might be to extend >> the range of files on the upload whitelist for the foundation wiki. >> Since only trusted users can edit there, enabling .pdf, .ppt, and .sxi >> shouldn't cause any problems, and would allow anyone with an account >> there to upload leaflets and presentations. > > > .pdf and .sxi are on the upload whitelist for all Wikimedia wikis and > have been for some time. > > -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com) Okay, rrrrright. Well... Anyone interested by illustrator or xpress or high quality pdf files for business cards, high resolution logos and leaflets, as well as ppt presentation may contact me by mail and we'll figure out how to send 20 mb files by mail. From anthere9 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 05:02:52 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 06:02:52 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Bulgarian Wikinews launched References: <42069A14.5090901@gmx.de> Message-ID: <4206F67C.8030505@yahoo.com> Erik Moeller a ?crit: > The Bulgarian edition of Wikinews is now set up at: > > http://bg.wikinews.org/ > > An announcement has been posted on the Bulgarian Wikipedia Village Pump, > as well as on the user talk pages of all interested users (all users who > signed up had user pages on bg:, and several had far more than 200 edits). > > I'd like to ask the Board to discuss in the meeting tomorrow what steps > are required to decide whether the Chinese Wikinews should be launched. I am quite certain we will not have time this evening. There are topics which are much more urgent to fix. I would appreciate that you do not launch chinese wikinews without more discussion. The failure of french launching is enough in one month. > Regards, > > Erik From anthere9 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 05:14:46 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 06:14:46 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: promotional items (was no subject) References: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> <4200F380.7030900@apotheon.com> <42048736.1000801@yahoo.com> <8b722b8005020508035869b755@mail.gmail.com> <4206C110.8060601@pobox.com> <4206F5DB.1090708@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4206F946.40103@yahoo.com> Anthere a ?crit: >> .pdf and .sxi are on the upload whitelist for all Wikimedia wikis and >> have been for some time. >> >> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com) oh, and, brion, what is sxi extension for ? Ant From nsk2 at wikinerds.org Mon Feb 7 05:35:50 2005 From: nsk2 at wikinerds.org (NSK) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 07:35:50 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: promotional items (was no subject) In-Reply-To: <4206F946.40103@yahoo.com> References: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> <4206F5DB.1090708@yahoo.com> <4206F946.40103@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200502070735.50907.nsk2@wikinerds.org> On Monday 07 February 2005 07:14, Anthere wrote: > oh, and, brion, what is sxi extension for ? It's OpenOffice.org 1.x Presentation -- NSK http://portal.wikinerds.org/slashdotting2005feb4 From erik_moeller at gmx.de Mon Feb 7 06:25:20 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 07:25:20 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Bulgarian Wikinews launched In-Reply-To: <4206F67C.8030505@yahoo.com> References: <42069A14.5090901@gmx.de> <4206F67C.8030505@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <420709D0.3060709@gmx.de> Ant- > I am quite certain we will not have time this evening. There are > topics which are much more urgent to fix. Do we even need board approval for this? Perhaps a community vote on what should be done would be sufficient: 1) Launch the project under the same conditions as all others 2) Only launch it if a majority of Chinese language community supports it 3) Only launch it if a majority of global user community supports it 4) ...? > The failure of french launching is enough in one month. No delay would have changed the fact that there is more opposition to Wikinews in the French language community than in others. That makes it obviously more difficult to promote the project, and contributors may feel less comfortable working for it if they feel its very existence is threatened. It's also true that the time spent on the flamewar about the French Wikinews could have been spent building it. So, the Swedes (90 articles! I hope they aren't copyvios), the Spanish and the Dutch have a bit of a headstart, but I'm confident that the French community will eventually build a truly great resource at fr.wikinews.org. If you can help in promoting the project, that would be appreciated. Regards, Erik From walter at vankalken.net Mon Feb 7 06:31:25 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 13:31:25 +0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] tonight? In-Reply-To: <420709D0.3060709@gmx.de> References: <42069A14.5090901@gmx.de> <4206F67C.8030505@yahoo.com> <420709D0 .3060709@gmx.de> Message-ID: <42070B3D.2000300@vankalken.net> What time is the IRC meeting planned for? Waerth/Walter van Kalken From beesley at gmail.com Mon Feb 7 06:41:52 2005 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 06:41:52 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] tonight? In-Reply-To: <42070B3D.2000300@vankalken.net> References: <42069A14.5090901@gmx.de> <4206F67C.8030505@yahoo.com> <420709D0.3060709@gmx.de> <42070B3D.2000300@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <8b722b80050206224178397733@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 13:31:25 +0700, Walter van Kalken wrote: > What time is the IRC meeting planned for? If you mean the board meeting, it's at 9pm (UTC). It wasn't being publicly advertised though, since the main point on the agenda regards a hosting offer we need to discuss, and we have been asked to keep the exact terms of this confidential for now. There will be a second board meeting this month (possibly around the 19th?). If there are no objections from the other members of the board, this one could be made open, as most of our meetings are. Angela. From beesley at gmail.com Mon Feb 7 06:47:22 2005 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 06:47:22 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Bulgarian Wikinews launched In-Reply-To: <420709D0.3060709@gmx.de> References: <42069A14.5090901@gmx.de> <4206F67C.8030505@yahoo.com> <420709D0.3060709@gmx.de> Message-ID: <8b722b80050206224761f51407@mail.gmail.com> Erik Moeller wrote regarding Chinese Wikinews: > Do we even need board approval for this? Perhaps a community vote on > what should be done would be sufficient: > 1) Launch the project under the same conditions as all others > 2) Only launch it if a majority of Chinese language community supports it > 3) Only launch it if a majority of global user community supports it > 4) ...? If board approval is needed, a global discussion (and possibly a poll) would be useful in informing our decision, so either way, I think the next step is for this to take place, rather than for it to be discussed at today's meeting. Angela. From anthere9 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 06:53:55 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 07:53:55 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Bulgarian Wikinews launched References: <42069A14.5090901@gmx.de> <4206F67C.8030505@yahoo.com> <420709D0.3060709@gmx.de> Message-ID: <42071083.7090606@yahoo.com> Erik Moeller a ?crit: > Ant- > >> I am quite certain we will not have time this evening. There are >> topics which are much more urgent to fix. > > > Do we even need board approval for this? Perhaps a community vote on > what should be done would be sufficient: > > 1) Launch the project under the same conditions as all others > 2) Only launch it if a majority of Chinese language community supports it > 3) Only launch it if a majority of global user community supports it > 4) ...? If you desire it so. But given the general opposition of the chinese community, it would be nice to ask them their opinion, even though a couple of people are asking for it. >> The failure of french launching is enough in one month. > > > No delay would have changed the fact that there is more opposition to > Wikinews in the French language community than in others. It would have made a difference. Many french are not opposed strictly, but think it is too early. So, a delay would have been a good thing. That makes it > obviously more difficult to promote the project, and contributors may > feel less comfortable working for it if they feel its very existence is > threatened. I see not why they feel its existence is threatened. They simply do not work on it because they are not interested. It's also true that the time spent on the flamewar about the > French Wikinews could have been spent building it. I do not think so, you and I are not contributors to it :-) Neither is notafish :-) So, the Swedes (90 > articles! I hope they aren't copyvios), the Spanish and the Dutch have a > bit of a headstart, but I'm confident that the French community will > eventually build a truly great resource at fr.wikinews.org. If you can > help in promoting the project, that would be appreciated. Sorry, I am rather busy trying to explain journalists the great idea behind it. Last week, I explained it to Les Echos (http://www.lesechos.fr/). I would have preferred talking to them about a successful project such as wikipedia :-) > Regards, > > Erik From erik_moeller at gmx.de Mon Feb 7 06:59:27 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 07:59:27 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Bulgarian Wikinews launched In-Reply-To: <42071083.7090606@yahoo.com> References: <42069A14.5090901@gmx.de> <4206F67C.8030505@yahoo.com> <420709D0.3060709@gmx.de> <42071083.7090606@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <420711CF.70206@gmx.de> Anthere- > > It would have made a difference. We'll just have to agree to disagree about that. Regards, Erik From anthere9 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 06:57:28 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 07:57:28 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Bulgarian Wikinews launched References: <42069A14.5090901@gmx.de> <4206F67C.8030505@yahoo.com> <420709D0.3060709@gmx.de> <8b722b80050206224761f51407@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42071158.9010001@yahoo.com> Angela a ?crit: > Erik Moeller wrote regarding Chinese Wikinews: > > >>Do we even need board approval for this? Perhaps a community vote on >>what should be done would be sufficient: >>1) Launch the project under the same conditions as all others >>2) Only launch it if a majority of Chinese language community supports it >>3) Only launch it if a majority of global user community supports it >>4) ...? > > > If board approval is needed, a global discussion (and possibly a poll) > would be useful in informing our decision, so either way, I think the > next step is for this to take place, rather than for it to be > discussed at today's meeting. > > Angela. agreed From erik_moeller at gmx.de Mon Feb 7 07:40:21 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 08:40:21 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Poll on Chinese Wikinews launch Message-ID: <42071B65.7010102@gmx.de> I've set up a poll at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews/China to help decide whether we need a formal vote among the Chinese users or all users before launching the Chinese Wikinews edition (because of the risk of censorship). Please vote. Regards, Erik From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Mon Feb 7 15:41:57 2005 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:41:57 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: promotional items (was no subject) In-Reply-To: <4206F5DB.1090708@yahoo.com> References: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> <4200F380.7030900@apotheon.com> <42048736.1000801@yahoo.com> <8b722b8005020508035869b755@mail.gmail.com> <4206C110.8060601@pobox.com> <4206F5DB.1090708@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <742dfd0605020707414b3388d2@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 06:00:11 +0100, Anthere wrote: > Well... > > Anyone interested by illustrator or xpress or high quality pdf files for > business cards, high resolution logos and leaflets, as well as ppt > presentation may contact me by mail and we'll figure out how to send 20 > mb files by mail. I have about a gig of web-accessible space on my machine you can use to store files; can you use FTP to upload them to me? You can also mail anything smaller than 5MB to this gmail account... -- +sj+ From robert_horning at netzero.net Mon Feb 7 19:18:51 2005 From: robert_horning at netzero.net (Robert Scott Horning) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 12:18:51 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikistandards References: Message-ID: <4207BF1B.7030902@netzero.net> C T wrote: >Our class has studied or is studying > >Electrical Theory 1 & 2 >Semiconductors 1 >Digital Devices 1 > >Does Wikistandards cover these topics? > >Where can I veiw the efforts already engaged? > >Thanks, >Craig > > > I think you are mistaking the purpose of what we are doing here. You originally proposed: "A place to gather international standards for electricity, electronics, and robotics. Instead of paying large sums of money to the IEEE and ISO for access to their standards." And I was pointing out that I had a similar effort that was more broadly based as a generic standards repository, that would obviously include international standards for these specific areas you mentioned. Trying to start up a new project is obviously challenging, if only to gather supporters together. I've been working on this proposal since August, and in truth I've been working on variations of something like this for almost five years. This isn't something that will happen immediately. The Wikimedia Foundation is not here to host just any project, but to foster new projects that are in harmony with the other projects that are here. A quick look at the list of proposed projects shows about fifty (50) different projects that have been proposed, most of them over the past year or so on the current list. There are only six major projects and four others that are still struggling trying to get going. Of those four, two are showing signs of trouble, Wikispecies and the 9-11 Memorial, because of various internal problems and its limited scope. (I am ignoring Meta and the Foundation websites as special creatures in their own right). In addition, the Wikimedia Foundation put up a new policy regarding how to start a new project, and so far there has not even been a single project that has been approved through this new process (based largely on how the Wikinews project was put together, and to avoid the pitfalls of projects like Wikispecies). If there is some momentum here, I'd like to see if we can get Wikistandards to be approved by this process, but it isn't going to happen any time very soon. At a minimum two to three months, perhaps even longer if just to see if we can get some community support. In short, I don't have any specific resources to put forward that would be able deal with the electronics theory concepts that you are suggesting, although there are some items in Wikibooks that might be of some use to you right now. If you know of some standards documents involving electronics that we might be able to put together, it would be appreciated. One thing I would have appreciated years ago when I was taking some Electrical Engineering classes was a book or guide to 7400-series digital logic chips. You can get this information often from chip manufactures, but an objective guide would have some value on its own. Please let me know if you have anything currently, or something that you are debating about in class right now that could be included. -- Robert Scott Horning From robert_horning at netzero.net Mon Feb 7 19:47:04 2005 From: robert_horning at netzero.net (Robert Scott Horning) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 12:47:04 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Project Proposal Demo Pages Message-ID: <4207C5B8.5050403@netzero.net> I've been working on a new project proposal, and I've considered trying to demonstrate what the site would look like by creating a few wiki pages and putting a little content together. Rather than going through the whole hassle of trying physically setting up the website as a demo on my own server, and because I don't have a 24/7 internet connection at the moment, I'd like to demonstrate what I think the website could look like by setting up some content pages demonstrating the concept. Right now, I've put together the following page: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/WikiStandards Before I start really pushing forward and adding content, I wanted to ask the foundation community if this is an acceptable practice, and just where, perhaps, I should put this content. While I started this on Wikibooks, now that I've been reflecting on this a little bit I'm thinking this perhaps should be on meta for now, simply because this really is a different thing and is a project proposal. If it is acceptable to do something like this, I'd also like some guidelines regarding mainly how much content should be on a demo site like this. Obviously this is something that is just starting out, but I also don't intend to make this a working sub project either and treating this as a fully-funtional wiki in its own right. In this case I think it will be easier for me to explain what I am proposing by actually showing real content and how it could be useful to the Wikimedia community in general. If the project gets approved, it would also be a good way to seed the new project right away. I'm also suggesing a minor change to the new proposal policy and making a demo project as a part of the proposal process. Obviously if there are software changes that have to be made this can't be done on the demo side, but a great deal can be done with the tools already available. For most of the proposed projects, it would show if it is a serious proposal or simply some wishful thinking that you had daydreaming one night. -- Robert Scott Horning From maveric149 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 19:53:07 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:53:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikistandards In-Reply-To: <4207BF1B.7030902@netzero.net> Message-ID: <20050207195307.29515.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Robert Scott Horning wrote: > In addition, the Wikimedia Foundation put up a new policy regarding how > to start a new project, and so far there has not even been a single > project that has been approved through this new process (based largely > on how the Wikinews project was put together, and to avoid the pitfalls > of projects like Wikispecies). If there is some momentum here, I'd like > to see if we can get Wikistandards to be approved by this process, but > it isn't going to happen any time very soon. At a minimum two to three > months, perhaps even longer if just to see if we can get some community > support. I think Wikistandards is a neat idea for a project and its general (meaning all inclusive in terms of what standards are allowed) scope along with its inherent importance will make for a viable project. Neat name too, btw. :) However, I still don't know if this is a good fit for the foundation (just because it is a good idea, does not necessarily mean we should host it), so some reasoning in that regard is needed. I'm also *very* worried by copyright and especially business practice patents that may be easily infringed in such a project. So I'd like to hear from a patent lawyer about that or at least somebody who knows a lot about this type of thing and how patents and copyright apply to standards. So, yes, a good deal more groundwork is needed. But I think we are on the right track. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From maveric149 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 20:00:45 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 12:00:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Project Proposal Demo Pages In-Reply-To: <4207C5B8.5050403@netzero.net> Message-ID: <20050207200045.61309.qmail@web51609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Robert Scott Horning wrote: > Before I start really pushing forward and adding content, I wanted to > ask the foundation community if this is an acceptable practice, and just > where, perhaps, I should put this content. While I started this on > Wikibooks, now that I've been reflecting on this a little bit I'm > thinking this perhaps should be on meta for now, simply because this > really is a different thing and is a project proposal. Please only add books you intend to actually become books on Wikibooks. If this is just a mock up, then Meta is a better place. Just use subpages. :) > I'm also suggesing a minor change to the new proposal policy and making > a demo project as a part of the proposal process. Obviously if there > are software changes that have to be made this can't be done on the demo > side, but a great deal can be done with the tools already available. > For most of the proposed projects, it would show if it is a serious > proposal or simply some wishful thinking that you had daydreaming one night. Sounds like a good idea. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From robert_horning at netzero.net Mon Feb 7 20:45:58 2005 From: robert_horning at netzero.net (Robert Scott Horning) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 13:45:58 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikistandards References: <20050207195307.29515.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4207D386.5080103@netzero.net> Daniel Mayer wrote: >--- Robert Scott Horning wrote: > > >>In addition, the Wikimedia Foundation put up a new policy regarding how >>to start a new project, and so far there has not even been a single >>project that has been approved through this new process (based largely >>on how the Wikinews project was put together, and to avoid the pitfalls >>of projects like Wikispecies). If there is some momentum here, I'd like >>to see if we can get Wikistandards to be approved by this process, but >>it isn't going to happen any time very soon. At a minimum two to three >>months, perhaps even longer if just to see if we can get some community >>support. >> >> > >I think Wikistandards is a neat idea for a project and its general (meaning all >inclusive in terms of what standards are allowed) scope along with its inherent >importance will make for a viable project. Neat name too, btw. :) > >However, I still don't know if this is a good fit for the foundation (just >because it is a good idea, does not necessarily mean we should host it), so >some reasoning in that regard is needed. > >I'm also *very* worried by copyright and especially business practice patents >that may be easily infringed in such a project. So I'd like to hear from a >patent lawyer about that or at least somebody who knows a lot about this type >of thing and how patents and copyright apply to standards. > >So, yes, a good deal more groundwork is needed. But I think we are on the right >track. > >-- mav > > As I indicated earlier, I don't think copyright is that big of an issue. If it doesn't fit with the GFDL, it should be removed just like anything that is posted on Wikipedia. I think there is going to be far more problems of copyright violation with Wikipedia then we will ever have with something like Wikistandards. I'm pushing for already open/free standards to be hosted here, not existing copyrighted standards. If people want to use those copyrighted standards documents, they should pay for them from the sources that already are dealing with them. Business practice patents and software patents are huge legal grey areas anyway and are causing legal grief elsewhere. I would have to agree that the Wikimedia Foundation does need to consider the potential legal consequences of hosting a project like this one, and the potential for legal restraining orders and arrest of participants. On the whole, I hope I havn't been scaring too many people with these legal threats, and I believe that the potential for legal issues is roughly identical as with other projects hosted by the Wikimedia Foundation. The reverse engineering documents are a bit of an issue, and an acceptable policy in the beginning would (IMHO) be to simply not allow these documents for roughly a year, then bring the issue up in the community and get some input if they are ever allowed, when, and how. There are far too many good things that can be developed and are being developed that can be hosted to let this issue be the setback. A standards document that is being developed as a totally new concept should in theory be free of these issues. As far as the Wikimedia Foundation is concerned, they are simply hosting content where the information is stored. There are increased legal problems for people who attempt to implement the information in the standards (create their own Ogg Vorbis player, as an example), but it could be demonstrated that the Wikimedia Foundation is innocent of violating the patents as all that was done is publishing documentation that has copyright clearance (either public domain or released under the GFDL). In short, I see a much bigger problem with libel issues arising from Wikinews than anything Wikistandards would come up with. And this is just as big of a deal with Wikibooks if somebody describes how to implement a patented process in one of the book modules. As an example, CompuServ created the GIF image standard years ago and published the specification, even granting the right to republish the document freely. This would even be a document that we could put into Wikistandards as an acceptable document. When Unisys came forward claiming patent violation due to the LZW algorithm patent, all that it did was affect anybody that used GIF images for content. Anybody that wanted to was still free to publish the specification document itself. The patent enforcement essentially killed the specification standard as far as anybody using it, but that didn't stop people from talking about how it worked and trying to re-implement a new version that avoided the patent issues, as was done when the PNG specification was created. In comparison, the DVD CSS lawsuits were done due to a group reverse engineering an existing specification. With a lot of hard work by some very intelligent people, the specific algorithm that was used to encrypt DVD-Video discs was discovered and an implementation of it in the form of the deCSS program was published. The legal issues involved with this are still unsettled, although the copyright and EULA issues were all dropped because the copyright status of deCSS was quite clear. All that remains now is to decide if it is legal to reverse engineer something that is a trade secret, and if that trade secret status remains after the information has been widely published from a reverse engineering effort. This is more of why I think reverse engineering specs should be kept off for now. As a citizen I think it is incredibly stupid that the courts should rule against specification of these sort, but it isn't my money or reputation on the line if the Wikimedia Foundation gets pulled in. -- Robert Scott Horning 218 Sunstone Circle Logan, UT 84321 (435) 753-3330 robert_horning at netzero.net From anthere9 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 23:20:52 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 00:20:52 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: promotional items (was no subject) References: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> <4200F380.7030900@apotheon.com> <42048736.1000801@yahoo.com> <8b722b8005020508035869b755@mail.gmail.com> <4206C110.8060601@pobox.com> <4206F5DB.1090708@yahoo.com> <742dfd0605020707414b3388d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4207F7D4.5080108@yahoo.com> Sj a ?crit: > On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 06:00:11 +0100, Anthere wrote: > >>Well... >> >>Anyone interested by illustrator or xpress or high quality pdf files for >>business cards, high resolution logos and leaflets, as well as ppt >>presentation may contact me by mail and we'll figure out how to send 20 >>mb files by mail. > > > I have about a gig of web-accessible space on my machine you can use > to store files; > can you use FTP to upload them to me? You can also mail anything > smaller than 5MB to this gmail account... > Thanks I will explore feasability in the next few days. The files are over 10 MB... My first move will be to post the remaining printed leaflets to Walter, so that they can be available for FOSDEM. This is more important, and slow postal travel will be less expensive. I am glad it will be a ressource over there :-) I may be little online in the next days I think, because I fear I got the flu. Feels like getting under cover. Ant From beesley at gmail.com Tue Feb 8 03:09:43 2005 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 03:09:43 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia budget for Q1, 2005 Message-ID: <8b722b8005020719092709f299@mail.gmail.com> A finance meeting was held on IRC today with four members of the Board, and Daniel Mayer. Please see http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/foundation/d/d8/WikimediaBankHistory2004.pdf for the budget details. An open general meeting will be held in #meeting.wikimedia on February 15. All are welcome to attend this to discuss the topics listed at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board_agenda Below is a summary of today's meeting. The full details of this will be posted at http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Meetings/February_7%2C_2005 as soon as Anthere and Jimbo approve them. *A budget for $130000 was approved *A fundraising drive to raise $75000 will take place for 3 weeks starting 18 February *Jimmy is discussing hiring options with Brion Vibber *The Google hosting proposal is being discussed this week *GuruNet will donate ?30,000 towards the Wikimania conference The following budget was approved for this quarter: Servers/Hardware (base) $35,000.00 Extra hardware/dev projects $20,000.00 Grant hardware $40,000.00 Grant special projects $0.00 Hosting $16,000.00 Travel $5,000.00 Domain names $500.00 Office expenses $2,500.00 Miscellaneous $1,000.00 Developer pay $8,000.00 Fundraising/Promotional $500.00 Hardware assistant $1,500.00 TOTAL $130,000.00 Needed in fund drive $75,000.00 Angela Beesley From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Tue Feb 8 03:10:10 2005 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 22:10:10 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Budget for Q1 2005 approved; fundraising drive planned Message-ID: <742dfd06050207191057f7d2cd@mail.gmail.com> Word on the street is that CFO Daniel Mayer pushed through another difficult budget package at this evening's board meeting, with bipartisan support (that is, from les deux partis"An") : Hardware: $75K* Extra hardware/dev projects: $20K** Hosting: $16K Developer contract: $8K*** Travel: $5K Office expenses: $2.5K Hardware assistance $1.5K Domain names: $500 Fundraising/Promotion: $500 Miscellaneous: $1K TOTAL $130K * $40K of which is explicitly covered by a recent grant from the Lounsbery Foundation. ** If we meet our fundraising goal; shortfalls will come out of this line iteml *** Being negotiated; to cover part-time work and perhaps bounties. More on meta: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_budget/2005/Q1 ==Fundraising Drive== We will have a fundraiser for three weeks starting Friday, Feb 18; and hope to raise $75k. Discussion of how to display and broadcast the drive is welcome. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising Here is the discussion from last September's fundraising meeting : http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_meeting%2C_September_2004 -- +sj+ From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Tue Feb 8 03:10:45 2005 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 22:10:45 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia budget for Q1, 2005 In-Reply-To: <8b722b8005020719092709f299@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b8005020719092709f299@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <742dfd060502071910674cceda@mail.gmail.com> Jinx and a coke :-) On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 03:09:43 +0000, Angela wrote: > A finance meeting was held on IRC today with four members of the > Board, and Daniel Mayer. > > Please see http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/foundation/d/d8/WikimediaBankHistory2004.pdf > for the budget details. > > An open general meeting will be held in #meeting.wikimedia on February > 15. All are welcome to attend this to discuss the topics listed at > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board_agenda > > Below is a summary of today's meeting. The full details of this will > be posted at http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Meetings/February_7%2C_2005 > as soon as Anthere and Jimbo approve them. > > *A budget for $130000 was approved > *A fundraising drive to raise $75000 will take place for 3 weeks > starting 18 February > *Jimmy is discussing hiring options with Brion Vibber > *The Google hosting proposal is being discussed this week > *GuruNet will donate ?30,000 towards the Wikimania conference > > The following budget was approved for this quarter: > Servers/Hardware (base) $35,000.00 > Extra hardware/dev projects $20,000.00 > Grant hardware $40,000.00 > Grant special projects $0.00 > Hosting $16,000.00 > Travel $5,000.00 > Domain names $500.00 > Office expenses $2,500.00 > Miscellaneous $1,000.00 > Developer pay $8,000.00 > Fundraising/Promotional $500.00 > Hardware assistant $1,500.00 > TOTAL $130,000.00 > Needed in fund drive $75,000.00 > > Angela Beesley > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > -- +sj+ _ _ :-------.-.--------.--.--------.-.--------.--.--------[...] From maveric149 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 8 06:47:01 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 22:47:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia budget for Q1, 2005 In-Reply-To: <8b722b8005020719092709f299@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050208064701.96651.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Angela wrote: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/foundation/d/d8/WikimediaBankHistory2004.pdf > for the budget details. Actually that is the full bank history for 2004. :) Jimmy still needs to look it over one last time to make sure I didn't miscategorize anything. Also, the CafePress item needs to be separated from the other income sources. We in fact received $994.86 worth of checks from CafePress last year. These were almost certainly lumped together with checks from donors and classified as "mail donations". This needs to be fixed before we give this to a tax person and I've alredy sent an email to Jimbo to see when these checks were deposited. -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From maveric149 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 8 07:07:48 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 23:07:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia budget for Q1, 2005 In-Reply-To: <8b722b8005020719092709f299@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050208070748.89742.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> Opps! I forgot to mention that the reason the Moneybookers income item is $0 is due to the fact that, AFAIK, we have not transfered any money out of it - ever. I also have no idea how much we have in that account (just something I don't bug Jimbo about). Last info I had was at the end of the last official fund drive http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2004/Q4 . I would be very surprised if we had more than $2000 in that account now. There is also *much* work that needs to be done to plan and coordinate the next fund drive. Expect an email from me about this in a day or two. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From saintonge at telus.net Tue Feb 8 18:07:11 2005 From: saintonge at telus.net (Ray Saintonge) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 10:07:11 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikistandards In-Reply-To: <20050207195307.29515.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050207195307.29515.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4208FFCF.2020000@telus.net> Daniel Mayer wrote: >inclusive in terms of what standards are allowed) scope along with its inherent >importance will make for a viable project. Neat name too, btw. :) > >However, I still don't know if this is a good fit for the foundation (just >because it is a good idea, does not necessarily mean we should host it), so >some reasoning in that regard is needed. > >I'm also *very* worried by copyright and especially business practice patents >that may be easily infringed in such a project. So I'd like to hear from a >patent lawyer about that or at least somebody who knows a lot about this type >of thing and how patents and copyright apply to standards. > Although I would be sceptical about this becoming a separate project, I don't see the problem as being with copyrights. If they really are international standards they are part of the law in the adhering countries, and thus in the public domain. Patented processes that are only available to a limited number of users seems inconsistent with the idea of international standards. Ec From board at wikimedia.org Tue Feb 8 18:17:52 2005 From: board at wikimedia.org (Wikimedia Foundation) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:17:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Promo-stuff shop of openstuff. In-Reply-To: <10097.82.174.201.237.1107855693.squirrel@82.174.201.237> References: <10097.82.174.201.237.1107855693.squirrel@82.174.201.237> Message-ID: <1107886671.834230.278460559.11862.23@ticket.wikimedia.org> ---- Forwarded message from "Walter Vermeir ." ---- > Hi, > > This shop is selling stuff from opensource projects; > http://openstuff.net > > There are in Belgium, good central point for Europa. > > Question; can we ask or someone of the board of the are willing to sell > Wikimdia/Wikipedia-stuff on there shop? > > When we need t-shirts, posters or so then we can just order them. At > least > for use in Europa. And users of Wikipedia whot like to have one can > order > also. Or Wikipedia must create there own internal production and > distribution channel for this stuff and earn more money. But that can > give > problems to do. > > Greetings, > [[w:nl:gebruiker:Walter]] From erik_moeller at gmx.de Wed Feb 9 02:58:50 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 03:58:50 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Progress on wikimedia.com? Message-ID: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> I seem to recall that there were negotiations underway at some point with the owner of wikimedia.com on transferring that domain name to the Foundation. To this day, there is no content under the domain, not even ads, just a German "Under construction" notice. I would like to inquire what the outcome of the past negotiations was. If they failed, is there any chance that we can get the domain by virtue of owning the trademark rights to "Wikimedia", and the domain name not being used in any other way by its owner? My interest is primarily that I would like the Foundation site to move from wikimediafoundation.org to wikimedia.org - a domain which is currently just an ugly portal site, but also a subdomain of Meta, the Wikimedia Commons, and the mailing lists. I think having the foundation site there could help to strengthen the Wikimedia brand identity, but when that was discussed in the past, the problem that we do not hold the .com was the main (only?) reason not to do it. So, to get the ball rolling, what's the situation? If I can help by getting in touch with the owner, I'll see what I can do. Are we willing to pay for the domain, or does it have to come for free? Legal proceedings cost money, too, so if the owner is happy with a small fee, that might be the least troublesome approach. On a different note, yes, Wikimedia and Wikipedia are very confusingly similar. Individually, our naming choices have been good, but taken together, they're a mess. I think it's too late to rename Wikimedia, with international organizations in place and 2 million Google hits on that name. The best way to deal with that problem, in my opinion, is to give a short explanation on the wikimedia.org page (which would then be the foundation page), with a small icon and a link to Wikipedia. All best, Erik From anthere9 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 9 05:41:35 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 06:41:35 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? References: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> Message-ID: <4209A28F.7020303@yahoo.com> Erik Moeller a ?crit: > I seem to recall that there were negotiations underway at some point > with the owner of wikimedia.com on transferring that domain name to the > Foundation. To this day, there is no content under the domain, not even > ads, just a German "Under construction" notice. I would like to inquire > what the outcome of the past negotiations was. If they failed, is there > any chance that we can get the domain by virtue of owning the trademark > rights to "Wikimedia", and the domain name not being used in any other > way by its owner? Negociations were under way with a member of the german association. I do not remember with certainty who. Possibly akl. > My interest is primarily that I would like the Foundation site to move > from wikimediafoundation.org to wikimedia.org - a domain which is > currently just an ugly portal site, but also a subdomain of Meta, the > Wikimedia Commons, and the mailing lists. ? I really do not see what you mean here. Actually, the more time goes by, the happier I am with the full name Many people get confused between wikipedia, wikimedia and mediawiki We certainly need wikimedia.com, but I am not so convinced we should move the site to wikimedia.org. I think having the foundation > site there could help to strengthen the Wikimedia brand identity, but > when that was discussed in the past, the problem that we do not hold the > .com was the main (only?) reason not to do it. > > So, to get the ball rolling, what's the situation? If I can help by > getting in touch with the owner, I'll see what I can do. Are we willing > to pay for the domain, or does it have to come for free? Legal > proceedings cost money, too, so if the owner is happy with a small fee, > that might be the least troublesome approach. A small fee would be reasonable. > On a different note, yes, Wikimedia and Wikipedia are very confusingly > similar. Individually, our naming choices have been good, but taken > together, they're a mess. I think it's too late to rename Wikimedia, > with international organizations in place and 2 million Google hits on > that name. The best way to deal with that problem, in my opinion, is to > give a short explanation on the wikimedia.org page (which would then be > the foundation page), with a small icon and a link to Wikipedia. This is the reason I would now rather support using full adress (with a redirection of course from wikimedia.org) I would be glad if you could take time to fix that up. > All best, > > Erik From erik_moeller at gmx.de Wed Feb 9 06:25:24 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 07:25:24 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? In-Reply-To: <4209A28F.7020303@yahoo.com> References: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> <4209A28F.7020303@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4209ACD4.5040809@gmx.de> Anthere- > Actually, the more time goes by, the happier I am with the full name > Many people get confused between wikipedia, wikimedia and mediawiki > We certainly need wikimedia.com, but I am not so convinced we should > move the site to wikimedia.org. Is it actually true that wikimediafoundation.org reduces the confusion, though? One could argue that it increases it. Compare: wikipedia.org wikimediafoundation.org wikipedia.org wikimedia.org In the first case, there are two differences - the "foundation" suffix and the "m" instead of the "p". In the second case, the only difference is the "m"/"p" difference. If I give someone the wikimediafoundation.org URL, and they visit it, chances are, they only notice the big difference - the "foundation" - and do not notice the smaller one. They might remember it as the "Wikipedia Foundation". A Google search for "Wikipedia Foundation" turns up 887 hits, so we can take this to be a common mistake. The reality may be somewhat counterintuitive: reducing the name to wikimedia.org makes the small difference more apparent -- leading to the intuition that it is "more confusing", when actually it highlights the difference and thereby reduces the confusion. Now, there are cases of confusion that will happen between wikipedia.org / wikimedia.org -- but if we redirect wikimedia.org to wikimediafoundation.org anyway, what positive difference does the "-foundation" make? Tell people that they are in the right or wrong place? That's what the content of the website should accomplish. This could be done very tastefully with a nice, prominent icon box both on the wikipedia.org and wikimedia.org homepages. I also think that using wikimedia.org would be more consistent with its use in our projects such as commons.wikimedia.org, meta.wikimedia.org, foundation-l at wikimedia.org, etc.. wikimediafoundation.org vs. wikimedia.org suggests that there's a difference when they're one and the same. Again, this may add to the confusion rather than reducing it, because we have two domain names in active use. I don't think the confusion can be reduced by simply using a longer name -- I believe the only way to accomplish that would be to change the main component, the "Wikimedia", but that doesn't seem practical. What are the cases where the confusion would increase if we move the site to wikimedia.org? Regards, Erik From anthere9 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 9 07:19:08 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 08:19:08 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? References: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> <4209A28F.7020303@yahoo.com> <4209ACD4.5040809@gmx.de> Message-ID: <4209B96C.5060008@yahoo.com> Erik Moeller a ?crit: > I don't think the confusion can be reduced by simply using a longer name > -- I believe the only way to accomplish that would be to change the main > component, the "Wikimedia", but that doesn't seem practical. What are > the cases where the confusion would increase if we move the site to > wikimedia.org? > > Regards, > > Erik I think the issue is NOT entirely the one of "confusion". But also an aspect of image, self-image. When we use explicitely the word "foundation", we transmit a certain message to the reader. the term "Foundation" conveys a certain set of concept, about "help", about "support", about "independant organisation", about "funding". Which the simple term "wikimedia" does not convey. This is probably why most american foundations have the word "foundation" in their name. Or most european associations have the word "association" in their name. I think this is important from a pr perspective. From christiaan at last-straw.net Wed Feb 9 12:57:31 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:57:31 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikipedia on answers.com/google Message-ID: I was looking up the word orchard via google today and noticed that they have a Wikipedia section: http://www.answers.com/orchard&r=67 http://snipurl.com/cna7 Cool, how long have they been doing this? Christiaan From jwales at wikia.com Wed Feb 9 15:04:37 2005 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 07:04:37 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikipedia on answers.com/google In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050209150437.GG26566@wikia.com> A few weeks. These are the people who invited me over to Israel and arranged for me to speak at Hebrew University in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv University. Their CEO is a huge fan of wikipedia, and is increasingly a supporter of the Wikimedia Foundation. Good people, very supportive of NPOV and of our charitable ideals. Christiaan Briggs wrote: > I was looking up the word orchard via google today and noticed that > they have a Wikipedia section: > http://www.answers.com/orchard&r=67 > > http://snipurl.com/cna7 > > Cool, how long have they been doing this? > > Christiaan > > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > -- "La n?fle est un fruit." - first words of 50,000th article on fr.wikipedia.org From anthere9 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 9 15:09:01 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 07:09:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Grant meeting Message-ID: <20050209150901.4167.qmail@web41825.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, As you all have probably seen, our budget is seriously increasing every trimester. It is my personal view that we cannot anymore entirely rely on donations by visitors, but must seriously seek other sources of income. Last year, we were offered two grants and one prize, and a third grant of 40 000 dollars was just offered. These grants make the difference between succeeding to run the site, or not. We need to pay more attention to grants. Most require quite a bit of work, but the result is really worth it. For this reason, a meeting will be held on this sunday, 4 PM UTC. If you wish to participate, please come over to #wikimedia, we'll find a quiet room to host us. While the meeting is open, I or Angela or Danny reserve the right to kindly ask a visitor to leave the room if necessary. We wish to involve people as much as possible, but only seriously interested and trusted people :-) Topics will be * feedback on current grant requests (Danny) * discussion over new possible grants * Decision to seek for a couple ones. * Teams setting up. In particular, last year, we thought of asking a NEH grant, but the deadlines were too short. We might try again this year. The work to do is not only setting up figures, but there is also a lot of work simply describing our project, gathering statistics or press clipings, helping on the layout, fixing typos, improving style etc... I invite you to read http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants and join us sunday Anthere __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From ginu.george at gmail.com Wed Feb 9 15:11:15 2005 From: ginu.george at gmail.com (Ginu George) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:11:15 +0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikipedia on answers.com/google In-Reply-To: <20050209150437.GG26566@wikia.com> References: <20050209150437.GG26566@wikia.com> Message-ID: Nice hearing that in the list. If you know the contact details of them, then give me off the list. I am from dubai and i can co-ordinate that then Regards George On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 07:04:37 -0800, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote: > A few weeks. These are the people who invited me over to Israel and > arranged for me to speak at Hebrew University in Jerusalem and Tel > Aviv University. Their CEO is a huge fan of wikipedia, and is > increasingly a supporter of the Wikimedia Foundation. Good people, very > supportive of NPOV and of our charitable ideals. > > Christiaan Briggs wrote: > > > I was looking up the word orchard via google today and noticed that > > they have a Wikipedia section: > > http://www.answers.com/orchard&r=67 > > > > http://snipurl.com/cna7 > > > > Cool, how long have they been doing this? > > > > Christiaan > > > > _______________________________________________ > > foundation-l mailing list > > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > > > > -- > "La n?fle est un fruit." - first words of 50,000th article on fr.wikipedia.org > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > -- Regards Ginu George www.ginugeorge.com From erik_moeller at gmx.de Wed Feb 9 16:01:38 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 17:01:38 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? In-Reply-To: <4209B96C.5060008@yahoo.com> References: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> <4209A28F.7020303@yahoo.com> <4209ACD4.5040809@gmx.de> <4209B96C.5060008@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <420A33E2.1040702@gmx.de> Ant- > I think the issue is NOT entirely the one of "confusion". But also an > aspect of image, self-image. > > When we use explicitely the word "foundation", we transmit a certain > message to the reader. Well, we do explicitly use that word on the website. Do we have to use it in the domain name? Let's look at some foundations Google gives us: Rockefeller Foundation - rockfound.org Ford Foundation - fordfound.org Heritage Foundation - heritage.org Apache Software Foundation - apache.org Free Software Foundation - fsf.org Electronic Frontier Foundation - eff.org Arthritis Foundation - arthritis.org Kellogg Foundation - wkkf.org Open Societiy Institute - soros.org Benton Foundation - benton.org Global SchoolNet Foundation - globalschoolnet.org MacArthur Foundation - macfound.org Hewlett Foundation - hewlett.org Packard Foundation - packard.org Andrew Mellon Foundation - mellon.org Carnegie Corporation - carnegie.org Templeton Foundation - templeton.org .... Most large, successful foundations have one thing in common: short domain names. Besides the ones listed, many have haphazardly constructed three- or four-letter acronyms, and some major ones even use the ugly shorthand "found" as a disambiguation instead of the longer "foundation". Whenever possible, foundations seem to use the word.org form. Make no mistake, there's plenty of foundations with "foundation" in the URL, but for the cases I could come up with, this is because a shorter name was not available (e.g. gates.org is taken by some guy's mail server). I haven't found a single one which redirects a short name to a longer one. Having a short domain name is very important. Many people don't use bookmarks, and they will visit a site only if they feel like typing the name. wikimediafoundation.org is 23 characters, longer than every single name on the Alexa top 100 websites list. Conveying the message that we are a foundation is best left to the website content, in my opinion, rather than the domain name. I don't see emphasis as a sufficient reason to keep a long name, otherwise we might as well call it wikimedianonprofit.org or wikimediafreeknowledge.org to emphasize other aspects of importance. Regards, Erik From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Wed Feb 9 16:02:32 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 17:02:32 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? In-Reply-To: <420A33E2.1040702@gmx.de> References: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> <4209A28F.7020303@yahoo.com> <4209ACD4.5040809@gmx.de> <4209B96C.5060008@yahoo.com> <420A33E2.1040702@gmx.de> Message-ID: <420A3418.5080902@laposte.net> We can always redirect www.wikimedia.com to www.wikimediafoundation.org This way, people can type the short way to get to the site. Nicolas [[Ryo]] From delirium at hackish.org Wed Feb 9 16:20:43 2005 From: delirium at hackish.org (Delirium) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 11:20:43 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Grant meeting In-Reply-To: <20050209150901.4167.qmail@web41825.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050209150901.4167.qmail@web41825.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <420A385B.1050303@hackish.org> Anthere wrote: >In particular, last year, we thought of asking a NEH >grant, but the deadlines were too short. We might try >again this year. The work to do is not only setting up >figures, but there is also a lot of work simply >describing our project, gathering statistics or press >clipings, helping on the layout, fixing typos, >improving style etc... > > I thought last time this came up, Jimbo indicated he was fairly strongly against the idea of Wikipedia seeking grants from governments or government agencies? -Mark From wikipedia at klempert.de Wed Feb 9 16:51:04 2005 From: wikipedia at klempert.de (Arne Klempert) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 17:51:04 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? References: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> <4209A28F.7020303@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <04cf01c50ec7$8b3fc460$7f00a8c0@akl> On Wednesday, February 09, 2005 6:41 AM Anthere wrote: > Erik Moeller a ?crit: >> I seem to recall that there were negotiations underway at some point >> with the owner of wikimedia.com on transferring that domain name to >> the Foundation. To this day, there is no content under the domain, >> not even ads, just a German "Under construction" notice. I would >> like to inquire what the outcome of the past negotiations was. If >> they failed, is there any chance that we can get the domain by >> virtue of owning the trademark rights to "Wikimedia", and the domain >> name not being used in any other way by its owner? > > Negociations were under way with a member of the german association. I > do not remember with certainty who. Possibly akl. Yes. After I got no respond to my first mail (should be in the archive of this list) I tried it by phone (didn't reach the person who is named in the whois database, but the guy I talked to seemed to qualify for making decisions). He said he would have a look at my mail and would respond - but he didn't. After a kind reminder mail I called him again, and he said again that he would answer the mail - but he didn't. After that I came to the conclusion that he won't give it away unless we're putting the screws on. So I decided to wait until Wikimedia is registered as a trademark at least in the U.S. Could anyone tell me if this is already done? http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_trademarks seems a little bit outdated :-( I'll forward my mails and the contact informations to Erik. -Arne (akl) From walter at vankalken.net Wed Feb 9 17:00:34 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:00:34 +0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Grant meeting In-Reply-To: <20050209150901.4167.qmail@web41825.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050209150901.4167.qmail@web41825.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <420A41B2.8010009@vankalken.net> I will be there, but can you please remind again when you see me on IRC on sunday ;) Waerth/Walter van Kalken From anthere9 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 9 17:21:45 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:21:45 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Grant meeting References: <20050209150901.4167.qmail@web41825.mail.yahoo.com> <420A385B.1050303@hackish.org> Message-ID: <420A46A9.3080801@yahoo.com> I am not aware he opposed at all the attempt made for this grant last summer : http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/NEH_grant_application Sooooo, he might have changed his mind :-) If not, we can discuss this. Delirium a ?crit: > Anthere wrote: > >> In particular, last year, we thought of asking a NEH >> grant, but the deadlines were too short. We might try >> again this year. The work to do is not only setting up >> figures, but there is also a lot of work simply >> describing our project, gathering statistics or press >> clipings, helping on the layout, fixing typos, >> improving style etc... >> > I thought last time this came up, Jimbo indicated he was fairly strongly > against the idea of Wikipedia seeking grants from governments or > government agencies? > > -Mark From anthere9 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 9 17:32:13 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:32:13 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? References: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> <4209A28F.7020303@yahoo.com> <04cf01c50ec7$8b3fc460$7f00a8c0@akl> Message-ID: <420A491D.9040102@yahoo.com> Arne Klempert a ?crit: > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_trademarks > seems a little bit outdated :-( Indeeeeeed. Well, I updated what I knew for certain. I would prefer Erik, that you do not do anything anymore until we have more information on wikimedia trademarks. Obviously, the owner of wikimedia.com is not very motivated, so best to approach him with something more solid. Ant From anthere9 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 9 17:56:56 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:56:56 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? References: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> <4209A28F.7020303@yahoo.com> <04cf01c50ec7$8b3fc460$7f00a8c0@akl> Message-ID: <420A4EE8.2070807@yahoo.com> Afaik, the trademark page is not very very outdated, since the only trademarks we recently got are wikipedia in Japan and Europe. But Jimbo will update it with more information soon. Given what Akl is reporting, the owner of www.wikimedia.com probably was not very willing to negociate. We do not have more in hands to motivate him yet : we need to ensure wikimedia is registered in the USA, which would be very useful for the negociation. So Erik, please hold on. Thanks Anthere Arne Klempert a ?crit: > On Wednesday, February 09, 2005 6:41 AM > Anthere wrote: > > >>Erik Moeller a ?crit: >> >>>I seem to recall that there were negotiations underway at some point >>>with the owner of wikimedia.com on transferring that domain name to >>>the Foundation. To this day, there is no content under the domain, >>>not even ads, just a German "Under construction" notice. I would >>>like to inquire what the outcome of the past negotiations was. If >>>they failed, is there any chance that we can get the domain by >>>virtue of owning the trademark rights to "Wikimedia", and the domain >>>name not being used in any other way by its owner? >> >>Negociations were under way with a member of the german association. I >>do not remember with certainty who. Possibly akl. > > > Yes. After I got no respond to my first mail (should be in the archive > of this list) I tried it by phone (didn't reach the person who is named > in the whois database, but the guy I talked to seemed to qualify for > making decisions). He said he would have a look at my mail and would > respond - but he didn't. After a kind reminder mail I called him again, > and he said again that he would answer the mail - but he didn't. > > After that I came to the conclusion that he won't give it away unless > we're putting the screws on. So I decided to wait until Wikimedia is > registered as a trademark at least in the U.S. Could anyone tell me if > this is already done? > > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_trademarks > seems a little bit outdated :-( > > I'll forward my mails and the contact informations to Erik. > > -Arne (akl) From wikipedia at klempert.de Wed Feb 9 18:52:09 2005 From: wikipedia at klempert.de (Arne Klempert) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:52:09 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? References: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> <4209A28F.7020303@yahoo.com><04cf01c50ec7$8b3fc460$7f00a8c0@akl> <420A4EE8.2070807@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <05f501c50ed8$75bbbd90$7f00a8c0@akl> On Wednesday, February 09, 2005 6:56 PM Anthere wrote: > Afaik, the trademark page is not very very outdated, since > the only trademarks we recently got are wikipedia in Japan > and Europe. That sounds not very plausible because to my knowledge the US trademark is a pre-condition to apply for registration in the EU according to the Madrid Agreement. "Trademark registrations have been filed for (pending): Wikipedia, MediaWiki, Wikinews, Others?" <--- "Others?" doesn't make me feel confident that the rest of the list is correct. It would be great to get some more informations about the trademarks. At least registration numbers would be very helpfully to impress domain squatters. -Arne (akl) From anthere9 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 9 19:04:24 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 20:04:24 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? References: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> <4209A28F.7020303@yahoo.com><04cf01c50ec7$8b3fc460$7f00a8c0@akl> <420A4EE8.2070807@yahoo.com> <05f501c50ed8$75bbbd90$7f00a8c0@akl> Message-ID: <420A5EB8.2080606@yahoo.com> Arne Klempert a ?crit: > On Wednesday, February 09, 2005 6:56 PM > Anthere wrote: > > >>Afaik, the trademark page is not very very outdated, since >>the only trademarks we recently got are wikipedia in Japan >>and Europe. > > > That sounds not very plausible because to my knowledge the US trademark > is a pre-condition to apply for registration in the EU according to the > Madrid Agreement. Well, still... according to Jimbo... this is a fact. I am interested by this agreement ... you mean something can't get protected unless it is first protected in the USA ??? What sort of an agreement is that ????? > "Trademark registrations have been filed for (pending): Wikipedia, > MediaWiki, Wikinews, Others?" <--- "Others?" doesn't make me feel > confident that the rest of the list is correct. It would be great to get > some more informations about the trademarks. At least registration > numbers would be very helpfully to impress domain squatters. > > -Arne (akl) Nod. Jimbo promised to do it within the next few days. If not, we need to torture him to do so. From wikipedia at klempert.de Wed Feb 9 19:30:01 2005 From: wikipedia at klempert.de (Arne Klempert) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 20:30:01 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? References: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> <4209A28F.7020303@yahoo.com><04cf01c50ec7$8b3fc460$7f00a8c0@akl> <420A4EE8.2070807@yahoo.com><05f501c50ed8$75bbbd90$7f00a8c0@akl> <420A5EB8.2080606@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <062d01c50edd$bfe3b620$7f00a8c0@akl> On Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:04 PM Anthere wrote: > I am interested by this agreement ... you mean something can't > get protected unless it is first protected in the USA ??? No. But afaik you can protect a trademark of a country which is member of the Madrid Union in all other countries by filing *one* application. > What sort of an agreement is that ????? http://www.wipo.int/madrid/en/ > Nod. Jimbo promised to do it within the next few days. That rings a bell ;-) -Arne (akl) From maveric149 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 9 22:58:20 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:58:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Grant meeting In-Reply-To: <20050209150901.4167.qmail@web41825.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050209225820.80727.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> --- Anthere wrote: > As you all have probably seen, our budget is seriously > increasing every trimester. This is very true (although our budgets are quarterly). I heard yesterday that many people thought the $130,000 budget was for the rest of the year. In fact, that is just for the first quarter of this year (ends March 31st). We are throwing a lot more money at servers this time than we normally would. This is largely due to the existence of the $40,000 grant and our want to *finally* get ahead of traffic increases and have a server farm that is top rate and very scalable. > It is my personal view that we cannot anymore entirely > rely on donations by visitors, but must seriously seek > other sources of income. Last year our total income was $150,498.75 (in 2003 we took in less than $20,000). Based on projected increases of traffic, how much we have spent per 1000 page requests just to keep up, and adjusting for Moore's Law, I project we will need to spend about $165,000 to $195,000 on servers during the last quarter of this year just to keep up (not for the whole year, just for the last three months). That is *if* we continue to grow as fast as we have been (80% compounded each quarter), *if* we don't find some way to be vastly more efficient, and *if* we continue to rely pretty much only on servers we buy. Lots of ifs, but it is still an important thing to consider as we move forward. The plan for Google hosting will greatly reduce the amount of money we need to spend as will other hosting offers. I imagine that grants will at least be needed to build extra capacity (playing the role of the current $40,000 grant this time). -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From maveric149 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 9 23:09:52 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 15:09:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Progress on wikimedia.com? In-Reply-To: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> Message-ID: <20050209230952.60086.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Erik Moeller wrote: > On a different note, yes, Wikimedia and Wikipedia are very confusingly > similar. Individually, our naming choices have been good, but taken > together, they're a mess. I think it's too late to rename Wikimedia, > with international organizations in place and 2 million Google hits on > that name. The best way to deal with that problem, in my opinion, is to > give a short explanation on the wikimedia.org page (which would then be > the foundation page), with a small icon and a link to Wikipedia. IMO, the shorter name can and should be used to present selected content from the various projects along with the ability to search all projects at once or individually. Something like the homepage for InfoPlease but better. http://www.infoplease.com/ At the very least, we should have the current owner forward Wikimedia.com to Wikimedia.org. We can then negotiate ownership transfer costs. -- mav __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From marco.krohn at web.de Wed Feb 9 23:25:00 2005 From: marco.krohn at web.de (Marco Krohn) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:25:00 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Grant meeting In-Reply-To: <20050209225820.80727.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050209225820.80727.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200502100025.00581.marco.krohn@web.de> On Wednesday 09 February 2005 23:58, Daniel Mayer wrote: Hi, [...] > The plan for Google hosting will greatly reduce the amount of > money we need to spend as will other hosting offers. I'm reading about google hosting for the second time now, but couldn't find anything on meta, wikidev or this mailing list. It sounds interesting, what is meant with it exactly? best regards, Marco From maveric149 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 9 23:31:07 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 15:31:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? In-Reply-To: <420A33E2.1040702@gmx.de> Message-ID: <20050209233107.92417.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> --- Erik Moeller wrote: > Having a short domain name is very important. Many people don't use > bookmarks, and they will visit a site only if they feel like typing the > name. wikimediafoundation.org is 23 characters, longer than every single > name on the Alexa top 100 websites list. Conveying the message that we > are a foundation is best left to the website content, in my opinion, > rather than the domain name. I don't see emphasis as a sufficient reason > to keep a long name, otherwise we might as well call it > wikimedianonprofit.org or wikimediafreeknowledge.org to emphasize other > aspects of importance. Every single page on every project that the foundation runs should eventually have a link to one of the fundrasing pages. There also should be a direct link to the foundation home page from each of those ~2 million pages (under the "A Wikimedia Project" button). Thus the number of characters in the actual URL of the foundation wiki is not too important. Having a portal to act as a central start-off point to all the different projects is far more important. Having that at Wikimedia.org makes perfect sense to me. Granted the current one lacks content and inter-project search capability, but that can and should be changed. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From beesley at gmail.com Wed Feb 9 23:31:26 2005 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:31:26 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Grant meeting In-Reply-To: <200502100025.00581.marco.krohn@web.de> References: <20050209225820.80727.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <200502100025.00581.marco.krohn@web.de> Message-ID: <8b722b80050209153110fc0d0c@mail.gmail.com> > I'm reading about google hosting for the second time now, but couldn't find > anything on meta, wikidev or this mailing list. It sounds interesting, what > is meant with it exactly? Basically, Google have made a proposal to host some of our content.There's an introduction at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Google_hosting, but I'm not sure I can say much more than that at this stage. Angela. From maveric149 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 9 23:35:49 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 15:35:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Google hosting (was Re: [Foundation-l] Grant meeting) In-Reply-To: <200502100025.00581.marco.krohn@web.de> Message-ID: <20050209233550.83871.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> --- Marco Krohn wrote: > I'm reading about google hosting for the second time now, but couldn't find > anything on meta, wikidev or this mailing list. It sounds interesting, what > is meant with it exactly? I don't remember the specifics (ask Jimbo for those), but Google has at least tentatively agreed to give us access to a certain number of dual zeon servers at one or more of their data centers and with unlimited bandwidth. I've been told that there are no strings attached (meaning they don't expect us to do anything for then, such as having GoogleAds). -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From erik_moeller at gmx.de Thu Feb 10 02:03:12 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:03:12 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? In-Reply-To: <4209A28F.7020303@yahoo.com> References: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> <4209A28F.7020303@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <420AC0E0.4090409@gmx.de> Anthere- > > This is the reason I would now rather support using full adress (with > a redirection of course from wikimedia.org) > > I would be glad if you could take time to fix that up. Angela said she would prefer it if wikimedia.org stays a separate site, unless a big disambiguation notice is added to wikimediafoundation.org. I'm happy to add a disambig notice, but I think it should only cover terms where there's some confusion (Wikipedia, MediaWiki) and be reasonably discreet. I'll stay out of this whole mess until the wikimedia.com situation is resolved. At that point, it's probably a good idea to ask the community for their input. Regards, Erik From maveric149 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 10 05:09:48 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:09:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Translations needed of donation pages before fund drive Message-ID: <20050210050948.64971.qmail@web51601.mail.yahoo.com> I'm happy to report that the donation pages and forms for de, en, fr, it, ja, and most recently nl are all translated! See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising and http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donazioni for examples. But in order to maximize donations for our next fund drive (to be held from Friday 18 February until Friday 4 March) we need more translations. Below is a table of those that still need some work: lang page Form-xx Help-xx Onetime-xx Option-xx ar yes no no no no cs yes no no no no es yes no no no no fi yes no no no no he yes no no no no ko yes no no no no pl yes no no no no pt yes yes no no no sv yes no no no no zh yes no no no no KEY (full instructions are on the linked pages) *page (actual donation page | Extremely important) http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF/Fundraising/En: *Form-xx (used to translate donation forms | Very important) http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:DonationForm-xx *Help-xx (help for donors) http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:DonateHelp-xx *Onetime-xx (a message about one time donations) http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:DonateOnetime-xx *Option-xx (used for navigation between forms) http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:DonateOption-xx I'd also like to see translations for all languages for which there are 10,000+ Wikipedia articles. Here is a list of those that so far do not have anything translated: bg, ca, da, eo, no, ro, ru, and uk Of course, all other translations are also welcome and will be posted to the foundation wiki. ----------- One last thing. I've noticed that there is no donation link in the side bar for for many non-Wikipedia wikis and for some Wikipedias. If you are an admin in any of these wikis *and* a version of the donation page is already on the Foundation wiki in your language, then please do this: Edit [[MediaWiki:Sitesupport-url]] and replace '{{SITENAME}}:Site_support' with 'Wikimedia:donate' with 'donate' being the name of the donation page in your language on the foundation wiki (Spenden, Fundraising, Faites un don, ... etc). Edit [[MediaWiki:Sitesupport]] and replace the '-' with the word 'Donations' (or its closest equivalent) translated into your language. That's it. :) -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav) PS - I you have any questions about any of this, then please either respond to this email or ask me questions on my meta user talk page at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Daniel_Mayer __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From wikipedia at earthlink.net Thu Feb 10 05:34:18 2005 From: wikipedia at earthlink.net (Michael Snow) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 21:34:18 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? In-Reply-To: <20050209191235.F14D11AC19CB@mail.wikimedia.org> References: <20050209191235.F14D11AC19CB@mail.wikimedia.org> Message-ID: <420AF25A.7020502@earthlink.net> Arne Klempert wrote: >That sounds not very plausible because to my knowledge the US trademark >is a pre-condition to apply for registration in the EU according to the >Madrid Agreement. > > Well, we could register the trademarks separately in some European country, but that doesn't make that much sense if we can get an EU-wide registration based on a prior US registration. >"Trademark registrations have been filed for (pending): Wikipedia, >MediaWiki, Wikinews, Others?" <--- "Others?" doesn't make me feel >confident that the rest of the list is correct. It would be great to get >some more informations about the trademarks. At least registration >numbers would be very helpfully to impress domain squatters. > > So far, we've filed just the three applications for US trademark registration that I know of - Wikipedia, MediaWiki, and Wikinews, no others. They don't have registration numbers because they're not registered yet, they're only in the application stage. The applications do have serial numbers, which you can get through the US Patent & Trademark Office's search function. You can also check the status, which in this case shows that none of the applications has yet been assigned to an examining attorney. (Applications seem to get entered in the system with decent regularity; I don't know how good they are about status updates.) Since we're trying to identify all of these with the Wikimedia Foundation, so that Wikimedia is sort of the umbrella brand for all our projects, it would probably make sense to get Wikimedia registered as well. The name is getting some public exposure (the New York Times did a nice job differentiating in their piece about Wikinews), and it could be helpful with the wikimedia.com situation. The domain name problem makes the issue of where to put the Foundation wiki academic for now, but ultimately I agree with Erik that we should definitely go with the shorter name. Either way, though, we should get ourselves the wikimedia.com domain. Eventually we should register the other projects as trademarks too, but I'm not sure that should be an immediate financial priority. I think it's more important to get international registration going for the first four marks (the existing three and Wikimedia), once the US registration is in effect. --Michael Snow From anthere9 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 10 06:09:33 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:09:33 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Grant meeting References: <20050209225820.80727.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <200502100025.00581.marco.krohn@web.de> Message-ID: <420AFA9D.3020602@yahoo.com> Marco Krohn a ?crit: > On Wednesday 09 February 2005 23:58, Daniel Mayer wrote: > > Hi, > > [...] > >>The plan for Google hosting will greatly reduce the amount of >>money we need to spend as will other hosting offers. > > > I'm reading about google hosting for the second time now, but couldn't find > anything on meta, wikidev or this mailing list. It sounds interesting, what > is meant with it exactly? > > best regards, > Marco It is currently proceeding, but details are not entirely worked out. We had a first proposal for which we gave feedback last week. Today, in Standford, Jimbo met with Sergei Brin and Larry Page, who were extremely enthousiastic about the whole project. The board has a meeting planned early march to try to finalize this a little bit more. Ant From anthere9 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 10 06:13:39 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:13:39 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? References: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> <4209A28F.7020303@yahoo.com> <420AC0E0.4090409@gmx.de> Message-ID: <420AFB93.8060500@yahoo.com> It is not a "mess" :-) Either way, while I have a preference, I will gladly accept that another solution is chosen, and the community is welcome to say what it prefers here. In all cases, as long as we do not have www.wikimedia.com, we should not change anything. So, let's talk about it when www.wikimedia.com is recovered. ant Erik Moeller a ?crit: > Anthere- > >> >> This is the reason I would now rather support using full adress (with >> a redirection of course from wikimedia.org) >> >> I would be glad if you could take time to fix that up. > > > Angela said she would prefer it if wikimedia.org stays a separate site, > unless a big disambiguation notice is added to wikimediafoundation.org. > I'm happy to add a disambig notice, but I think it should only cover > terms where there's some confusion (Wikipedia, MediaWiki) and be > reasonably discreet. > > I'll stay out of this whole mess until the wikimedia.com situation is > resolved. At that point, it's probably a good idea to ask the community > for their input. > > Regards, > > Erik From beesley at gmail.com Thu Feb 10 15:38:32 2005 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:38:32 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Board meeting, February 2005 Message-ID: <8b722b8005021007383dd6b979@mail.gmail.com> The approved notes of the Board meeting on 7 February are now at http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Meetings/February_7%2C_2005 The meeting focused primarily on finance, and the budget is now at http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Budget/2005 If you would like to comment on this meeting or discuss any of the points raised there, please do so at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/talk:Wikimedia_Board_meetings Angela. From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Thu Feb 10 16:23:48 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 03:23:48 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Quenya language request, and Chinese Wikipedia again In-Reply-To: <420B894D.10406@tonal.clara.co.uk> References: <5075.194.72.110.12.1108033756.squirrel@happy.minority-report.co.uk> <420B5350.2010709@yahoo.com> <20050210123649.GH21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <3596.194.72.110.12.1108039849.squirrel@happy.minority-report.co.uk> <20050210125449.GI21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <420B8248.8000306@tonal.clara.co.uk> <20050210155316.GR21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <420B894D.10406@tonal.clara.co.uk> Message-ID: <20050210162348.GS21722@thingy.apana.org.au> Neil Harris (usenet at tonal.clara.co.uk) [050211 03:18]: > Just as with politics, there are many actual positions hidden behind > people's ostensible positions. At the moment, we have a position where > "yes, but only when we are happy", or even "yes, real soon now" actually > mean "never". The key here is _breaking the deadlock_ of _indefinite_ > opposition to other Chinese language Wikipedias, by making supporters on > both sides commit in advance to a value of N, and automatically > triggering the change in policy when N is reached. Making people make > _objective_ choices always clarifies their positions. The thing is you're still presupposing that an existing wikipedia has a right to block the existence of a new Wikipedia. I ask the Board: is this the case? - d. From jwales at wikia.com Thu Feb 10 19:14:33 2005 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:14:33 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Quenya language request, and Chinese Wikipedia again In-Reply-To: <20050210162348.GS21722@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <5075.194.72.110.12.1108033756.squirrel@happy.minority-report.co.uk> <420B5350.2010709@yahoo.com> <20050210123649.GH21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <3596.194.72.110.12.1108039849.squirrel@happy.minority-report.co.uk> <20050210125449.GI21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <420B8248.8000306@tonal.clara.co.uk> <20050210155316.GR21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <420B894D.10406@tonal.clara.co.uk> <20050210162348.GS21722@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <20050210191433.GL11848@wikia.com> David Gerard wrote: > The thing is you're still presupposing that an existing wikipedia has a > right to block the existence of a new Wikipedia. > > I ask the Board: is this the case? Not speaking here for the board, but only offering my own tentative opinion, the answer to this is "no" in the general case, but that such factors can be a part of the overall decision. I am told repeatedly by many people that while Mandarian and Cantonese are mutually unintelligible in the spoken form, in written form they are the same. This is pretty compelling for me. If there is a significant population of people who can not read/write standard written Chinese, but *can* read/write Cantonese in some writing system that is different, then I want to learn about that, because that would be a very compelling factor in the other direction. --Jimbo From st at gmuf.com Fri Feb 11 09:45:45 2005 From: st at gmuf.com (Stanislav Traykov) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:45:45 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Fundraising: German Bank Account Message-ID: <420C7EC9.7060701@gmuf.com> Hi, I'll probably include the bank account of the German chapter in the Bulgarian translation of the fundraising pages. (That's because PayPal isn't available to most Bulgarian clients and a semi-cheap intra-european wire transfer seems like a reasonable option for some people.) My questions: a) Shall we use a different transfer purpose (Verwendungszweck) than "Spende"? b) Does it make any sense to ask donors to optionally add their address to the Verwendungszweck, if they wish to receive a receipt? (Or is tax deducibility for the e.V. not applicable outside Germany?). c) Generally, are there any problems with this? Thanks, Stanislav From wikimb at gmail.com Fri Feb 11 14:20:04 2005 From: wikimb at gmail.com (Michael Becker) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:20:04 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia Message-ID: <420CBF14.2000806@gmail.com> Well, it looks like someone spilled the beans about the google deal http://google-blog.dirson.com/post.new/0233/ Could we update this page: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Google_hosting since it is being linked to by /.? Since it's already public, I can't see any harm in keeping the community informed of the facts. From yann at forget-me.net Fri Feb 11 14:53:22 2005 From: yann at forget-me.net (Yann Forget) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:53:22 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <420CBF14.2000806@gmail.com> References: <420CBF14.2000806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200502111553.22298.yann@forget-me.net> Le Friday 11 February 2005 15:20, Michael Becker a ?crit : > Well, it looks like someone spilled the beans about the google deal > http://google-blog.dirson.com/post.new/0233/ > Could we update this page: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Google_hosting > since it is being linked to by /.? Done, but you could have done it yourself. It's a wiki, you know... ;o) > Since it's already public, I can't see any harm in keeping the community > informed of the facts. Yann -- http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux From delirium at hackish.org Fri Feb 11 15:00:28 2005 From: delirium at hackish.org (Delirium) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:00:28 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <420CBF14.2000806@gmail.com> References: <420CBF14.2000806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <420CC88C.8080506@hackish.org> Michael Becker wrote: > Well, it looks like someone spilled the beans about the google deal > http://google-blog.dirson.com/post.new/0233/ > Could we update this page: > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Google_hosting since it is being linked > to by /.? > Since it's already public, I can't see any harm in keeping the > community informed of the facts. What'd be *really* great is if they also donated a working search feature. =D (Something like a more controllable version of "site:xx.wikipedia.org" that distinguished namespaces would be sufficient.) -Mark From leon.weber at t-online.de Fri Feb 11 17:43:31 2005 From: leon.weber at t-online.de (Leon Weber) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:43:31 +0100 Subject: AW: [Foundation-l] Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <420CC88C.8080506@hackish.org> Message-ID: <000201c51061$34333350$6800a8c0@weberf02> >What'd be *really* great is if they also donated a working search >feature. =D They will put a search feature on their website, i am sure. I think that Google donates to us because MSN has the encarta-searc and so Google needs something, too. Leon From walter at vankalken.net Fri Feb 11 17:48:37 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 00:48:37 +0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Pissed off In-Reply-To: <8b722b8005020719092709f299@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b8005020719092709f299@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <420CEFF5.1080002@vankalken.net> I am getting pissed off with the automatic blockbot the Japanese wikipedia uses. Japanese wikipedia has pre-emptively blocked whole ranges of IP - addresses. Including the ones Thailands biggest provider uses (a couple of 100.000 potential wikipedians). Every time I need to make a change on Japanese wikipedia I need to ask them to unblock that specific IP. Note these are pre-emptive blocks. So no vandalism was done from these addresses. I find this totally anti-wikipedia and an extremely big nuisance. Every time I am busy doing interwiki it shows up. And what pisses me off even more is that it doesn't show up when editing .... but at the moment I save the page. Bloody pissed Waerth/Walter van Kalken From maveric149 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 11 19:26:41 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:26:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <420CC88C.8080506@hackish.org> Message-ID: <20050211192641.29383.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> --- Delirium wrote: > What'd be *really* great is if they also donated a working search > feature. =D Only if it is free software. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From anthere9 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 11 17:05:30 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:05:30 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia References: <420CBF14.2000806@gmail.com> <200502111553.22298.yann@forget-me.net> Message-ID: <420CE5DA.2040108@yahoo.com> Yann Forget a ?crit: > Le Friday 11 February 2005 15:20, Michael Becker a ?crit : > >>Well, it looks like someone spilled the beans about the google deal >>http://google-blog.dirson.com/post.new/0233/ >>Could we update this page: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Google_hosting >>since it is being linked to by /.? > > > Done, but you could have done it yourself. > It's a wiki, you know... ;o) Jimbo removed the information added by Yann, and I will ask you not to add things which are rumors from the Internet, but will appear official as soon as WE report them. Whether these rumors are correct or not correct is irrelevant. For now, the only people aware of the details are the members of the board (in particular Jimbo, Angela and myself), and Google decision makers. And these details are still confidential. From delirium at hackish.org Fri Feb 11 20:45:27 2005 From: delirium at hackish.org (Delirium) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:45:27 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <420CE5DA.2040108@yahoo.com> References: <420CBF14.2000806@gmail.com> <200502111553.22298.yann@forget-me.net> <420CE5DA.2040108@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <420D1967.1040700@hackish.org> Anthere wrote: > Jimbo removed the information added by Yann, and I will ask you not to > add things which are rumors from the Internet, but will appear > official as soon as WE report them. How are they rumors? The information removed was reported on the official Wikipedia Foundation mailing list, which is public. As the blog in question points out, the fact that there was a meeting between Jimbo and Google representatives was reported by you [1], and the fact that Google has tentatively agreed to give access to servers and bandwidth was reported by mav [2]. -Mark [1] http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2005-February/002185.html [2] http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2005-February/002181.html From yann at forget-me.net Fri Feb 11 20:45:24 2005 From: yann at forget-me.net (Yann Forget) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:45:24 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <420CE5DA.2040108@yahoo.com> References: <420CBF14.2000806@gmail.com> <200502111553.22298.yann@forget-me.net> <420CE5DA.2040108@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200502112145.24714.yann@forget-me.net> Le Friday 11 February 2005 18:05, Anthere a ?crit : > Yann Forget a ?crit: > > Le Friday 11 February 2005 15:20, Michael Becker a ?crit : > >>Well, it looks like someone spilled the beans about the google deal > >>http://google-blog.dirson.com/post.new/0233/ > >>Could we update this page: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Google_hosting > >>since it is being linked to by /.? > > > > Done, but you could have done it yourself. > > It's a wiki, you know... ;o) > > Jimbo removed the information added by Yann, and I will ask you not to > add things which are rumors from the Internet, but will appear official > as soon as WE report them. Anthere, the information i added come from the foundation-l mailing list, not "rumors from the Internet". > Whether these rumors are correct or not correct is irrelevant. For now, > the only people aware of the details are the members of the board (in > particular Jimbo, Angela and myself), and Google decision makers. And > these details are still confidential. But agreed that's better to keep quiet about this issue for now. Yann -- http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux From wurdbendur at gmail.com Fri Feb 11 22:31:06 2005 From: wurdbendur at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:31:06 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Shavian Wikis Message-ID: I?m fairly new on Wikimedia, and even more so to this mailing list--but I?m sure you?ve heard plenty of this before, so I?ll get right to it. I was directed to this list to enquire about starting new Wikis in the Shavian alphabet, especially a Wikipedia and maybe Wikinews. I'm not sure this is entirely appropriate for Wikimedia since it will just be English spelled phonemically (or phonetically, if you prefer). But such considerations don't seem to preclude other Wikis, such as Simple English or Tok Pisin (not quite English, I know), so I thought I'd give it a try. I want to verify before discussing this in mind-numbing detail (putting everyone to sleep) that I am indeed in the right place and that there can perhaps be some consideration for Shavian on Wikimedia. I can assure you that the support is there, and Shavian users can be expected to use and edit Wikis in Shavian when possible. Regards, Joe From brion at pobox.com Fri Feb 11 22:50:02 2005 From: brion at pobox.com (Brion Vibber) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:50:02 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Shavian Wikis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <420D369A.3070100@pobox.com> Joe wrote: > I?m fairly new on Wikimedia, and even more so to this mailing list--but I?m > sure you?ve heard plenty of this before, so I?ll get right to it. > > I was directed to this list to enquire about starting new Wikis in the > Shavian alphabet, especially a Wikipedia and maybe Wikinews. For those not familiar with Shavian: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shavian_alphabet It's a phonetic (well, phonemic ;) alphabet for the English language, developed in response to a contest specified for in George Bernard Shaw's will. While a very neat thing, it's needless to say not in common use for writing English. > I'm not sure > this is entirely appropriate for Wikimedia since it will just be English > spelled phonemically (or phonetically, if you prefer). Since it's not even a language unto itself, and only a small handful of hobbyists use it at all, it's very unlikely that any Wikimedia projects will be established using Shavian writing. You might ask Wikicities -- http://www.wikicities.com/ -- which is where the Toki Pona wiki got moved. (Toki Pona is a hobbyist conlang.) > But such > considerations don't seem to preclude other Wikis, such as Simple English or > Tok Pisin (not quite English, I know), so I thought I'd give it a try. Tok Pisin is a creole language which is spoken natively by actual people. The 'Simple English' Wikipedia was created long, long ago and to this day it's unclear what its intended mission is. -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 253 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20050211/e769cd57/attachment.pgp From anthere9 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 11 23:18:00 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 00:18:00 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia References: <420CBF14.2000806@gmail.com> <200502111553.22298.yann@forget-me.net> <420CE5DA.2040108@yahoo.com> <200502112145.24714.yann@forget-me.net> Message-ID: <420D3D28.8000808@yahoo.com> Yann Forget a ?crit: > Le Friday 11 February 2005 18:05, Anthere a ?crit : > >>Yann Forget a ?crit: >> >>>Le Friday 11 February 2005 15:20, Michael Becker a ?crit : >>> >>>>Well, it looks like someone spilled the beans about the google deal >>>>http://google-blog.dirson.com/post.new/0233/ >>>>Could we update this page: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Google_hosting >>>>since it is being linked to by /.? >>> >>>Done, but you could have done it yourself. >>>It's a wiki, you know... ;o) >> >>Jimbo removed the information added by Yann, and I will ask you not to >>add things which are rumors from the Internet, but will appear official >>as soon as WE report them. > > > Anthere, the information i added come from the foundation-l mailing list, not > "rumors from the Internet". The Foundation list is not on the Internet ? :-) From anthere9 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 11 23:22:06 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 00:22:06 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia References: <420CBF14.2000806@gmail.com> <200502111553.22298.yann@forget-me.net> <420CE5DA.2040108@yahoo.com> <420D1967.1040700@hackish.org> Message-ID: <420D3E1E.2050301@yahoo.com> Delirium a ?crit: > Anthere wrote: > >> Jimbo removed the information added by Yann, and I will ask you not to >> add things which are rumors from the Internet, but will appear >> official as soon as WE report them. > > > How are they rumors? The information removed was reported on the > official Wikipedia Foundation mailing list, which is public. Does not make it less a rumor necessarily. >.... and the fact > that Google has tentatively agreed to give access to servers and > bandwidth was reported by mav [2]. I would not like to sound impolite in any way, but Mav did not see the google proposal. > -Mark From rose.parks at att.net Sat Feb 12 02:46:40 2005 From: rose.parks at att.net (rose.parks at att.net) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:46:40 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] NYTimes.com: Google may host encyclopedia project Message-ID: <20050212024641.EBFAF1AC03D6@mail.wikimedia.org> This page was sent to you by: rose.parks at att.net. Hi, Is it possible that no one saw this yesterday in the Times? As Ever, Ruth Ifcher TECHNOLOGY | February 11, 2005 Google may host encyclopedia project Matt Hines, Staff Writer, CNET News.com The group behind the Wikipedia online effort says the search giant offered to host some of its content on company servers. http://www.nytimes.com/cnet/CNET_2100-1038_3-5572744.html?ex=1108789200&en=2955debe6a2ea165&ei=5070 ----------------- Advertisement --------------------------
/--------- E-mail Sponsored by Fox Searchlight Pictures ------------\

ONLY ONE COMEDY HAS BEEN NOMINATED FOR BEST PICTURE

SIDEWAYS has been nominated for 5 OSCARS including Best Picture, Best Director, Best Screenplay, Best Supporting Actor and Best Supporting Actress. Critics across America agree... SIDEWAYS is the BEST PICTURE of the year. SIDEWAYS stars Paul Giamatti, Thomas Haden Church, Sandra Oh and Virginia Madsen. Now playing in theaters everywhere. Watch the trailer at:

http://www.foxsearchlight.com/sideways/index_nyt.html
----------------- Advertisement -------------------------- 0 ---------------------------------------------------------- ABOUT THIS E-MAIL This e-mail was sent to you by a friend through NYTimes.com's E-mail This Article service. For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help at nytimes.com. NYTimes.com 500 Seventh Avenue New York, NY 10018 Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company From rose.parks at att.net Sat Feb 12 02:48:35 2005 From: rose.parks at att.net (rose.parks at att.net) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:48:35 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] NYTimes.com: Google may host encyclopedia project Message-ID: <20050212024836.1621D1AC17F7@mail.wikimedia.org> This page was sent to you by: rose.parks at att.net. Hi, And, then, today, the Times published this: As Ever, Ruth Ifcher TECHNOLOGY | February 11, 2005 Google may host encyclopedia project Matt Hines, Staff Writer, CNET News.com The group behind the Wikipedia online effort says the search giant offered to host some of its content on company servers. http://www.nytimes.com/cnet/CNET_2100-1038_3-5572744.html?ex=1108789200&en=2955debe6a2ea165&ei=5070 ----------------- Advertisement --------------------------
/--------- E-mail Sponsored by Fox Searchlight Pictures ------------\

ONLY ONE COMEDY HAS BEEN NOMINATED FOR BEST PICTURE

SIDEWAYS has been nominated for 5 OSCARS including Best Picture, Best Director, Best Screenplay, Best Supporting Actor and Best Supporting Actress. Critics across America agree... SIDEWAYS is the BEST PICTURE of the year. SIDEWAYS stars Paul Giamatti, Thomas Haden Church, Sandra Oh and Virginia Madsen. Now playing in theaters everywhere. Watch the trailer at:

http://www.foxsearchlight.com/sideways/index_nyt.html
----------------- Advertisement -------------------------- 0 ---------------------------------------------------------- ABOUT THIS E-MAIL This e-mail was sent to you by a friend through NYTimes.com's E-mail This Article service. For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help at nytimes.com. NYTimes.com 500 Seventh Avenue New York, NY 10018 Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company From rose.parks at att.net Sat Feb 12 02:52:55 2005 From: rose.parks at att.net (rose.parks at att.net) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:52:55 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] NYTimes.com: The Unassociated Press Message-ID: <20050212025256.707311AC1852@mail.wikimedia.org> This page was sent to you by: rose.parks at att.net. Apologies... This is the first article from Thursday's Times. As Ever, Ruth Ifcher TECHNOLOGY / CIRCUITS | February 10, 2005 The Unassociated Press By AARON WEISS Wikinews, an experiment in collaborative news gathering, is gaining in popularity. But the central question about the Wikinews effort is its credibility. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/10/technology/circuits/10wiki.html?ex=1108789200&en=7114f995abf3ad92&ei=5070 ----------------- Advertisement --------------------------
/--------- E-mail Sponsored by Fox Searchlight Pictures ------------\

ONLY ONE COMEDY HAS BEEN NOMINATED FOR BEST PICTURE

SIDEWAYS has been nominated for 5 OSCARS including Best Picture, Best Director, Best Screenplay, Best Supporting Actor and Best Supporting Actress. Critics across America agree... SIDEWAYS is the BEST PICTURE of the year. SIDEWAYS stars Paul Giamatti, Thomas Haden Church, Sandra Oh and Virginia Madsen. Now playing in theaters everywhere. Watch the trailer at:

http://www.foxsearchlight.com/sideways/index_nyt.html
----------------- Advertisement -------------------------- 0 ---------------------------------------------------------- ABOUT THIS E-MAIL This e-mail was sent to you by a friend through NYTimes.com's E-mail This Article service. For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help at nytimes.com. NYTimes.com 500 Seventh Avenue New York, NY 10018 Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company From wurdbendur at gmail.com Sat Feb 12 05:29:56 2005 From: wurdbendur at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 00:29:56 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Shavian Wikis In-Reply-To: <420D369A.3070100@pobox.com> Message-ID: On 2/11/05 5:50 PM, "Brion Vibber" wrote: > For those not familiar with Shavian: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shavian_alphabet > > It's a phonetic (well, phonemic ;) alphabet for the English language, > developed in response to a contest specified for in George Bernard > Shaw's will. Thanks for clarifying. I didn't think to mention this earlier. ^_^; > While a very neat thing, it's needless to say not in common use for > writing English. I suppose that depends on how you define "common". There are a number of people currently using it in the shawalphabet Yahoo! Group and on the Ikonboard at shavian.org. I also had a pen pal who I wrote in Shavian (insignificant, yes :), but he seems to have dropped off the face of the Earth. > Since it's not even a language unto itself, and only a small handful of > hobbyists use it at all, it's very unlikely that any Wikimedia projects > will be established using Shavian writing. You might ask Wikicities -- > http://www.wikicities.com/ -- which is where the Toki Pona wiki got > moved. (Toki Pona is a hobbyist conlang.) I had the same concern about how to implement Shavian since it isn't really a language. I've wondered if there's a way to offer a single Wiki in multiple scripts, but this may be the product of an over-imaginative mind. I'll be checking out Wikicities (never been there before) if this still doesn't sound reasonable. > Tok Pisin is a creole language which is spoken natively by actual > people. The 'Simple English' Wikipedia was created long, long ago and to > this day it's unclear what its intended mission is. If the English loanwords in Tok Pisin were spelled the same as their English origins, much of it would be mutually intelligible. Besides the slight difference in grammar and various words from other languages, the biggest difference is in spelling. This isn't meant to be an exact match, though--just an example. I recognize the difference. I can't say I really understand the purpose of the "Simple English" Wikipedia either. It sounds like a good idea though, perhaps for use by children or ESL students?. There's been talk of merging it with the en: Wikipedia, which could be described more accurately as simply removing it. Perhaps if there were a Shavian Wiki, it would face the same fate. Regards, Joe From delirium at hackish.org Sat Feb 12 07:42:43 2005 From: delirium at hackish.org (Delirium) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 02:42:43 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <420CE5DA.2040108@yahoo.com> References: <420CBF14.2000806@gmail.com> <200502111553.22298.yann@forget-me.net> <420CE5DA.2040108@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <420DB373.1030105@hackish.org> Anthere wrote: > Jimbo removed the information added by Yann, and I will ask you not to > add things which are rumors from the Internet, but will appear > official as soon as WE report them. I'm not sure I will continue to participate in Wikimedia Foundation activities until this is resolved. In particular, multiple reverts with no edit summaries from Jimbo, and locking pages after removing information is no way to run a Wiki. Meta is a place where any user may place information---you guys can censor wikimediafoundation.org if you want, but please don't fuck up meta. -Mark From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 12 08:28:17 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 00:28:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <420DB373.1030105@hackish.org> Message-ID: <20050212082817.59739.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Delirium wrote: > I'm not sure I will continue to participate in Wikimedia Foundation > activities until this is resolved. In particular, multiple reverts with > no edit summaries from Jimbo, and locking pages after removing > information is no way to run a Wiki. Meta is a place where any user may > place information---you guys can censor wikimediafoundation.org if you > want, but please don't fuck up meta. *I* protected that page some time before Jimbo's first edit to it. The reason was vandalism from Slashdot trolls. This page is also being referred to by news agencies as an 'official statement' by the foundation. It is therefore *very* appropriate for rumors and even for known but sensitive info (that probably should not be public) to be removed from it. --mav __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 12 12:38:32 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:38:32 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia References: <420CBF14.2000806@gmail.com> <200502111553.22298.yann@forget-me.net> <420CE5DA.2040108@yahoo.com> <420DB373.1030105@hackish.org> Message-ID: <420DF8C8.4010805@yahoo.com> Mark, I understand extremely well what you are saying. And I fully understand your concerns with regards to the freedom any editor should benefit on meta. I fully support this view as well. Allow me to explain to you a little bit more the current situation. First, Wikimedia Foundation is discussing the possibility of a deal with Google. However, the exact terms of the "current" proposal have not been publicly disclosed. There has been no official statement with regards exact terms either by WMF, nor by Google. Second, since we, editors of Wikimedia projects as well as Jimbo himself, tend to discuss things a lot together, as we work very hard to reach consensus and keep the community informed, basic information was provided to editors and developers. Hence, there was a trend to inform editors of the existence of the discussion and of the plan to meet Google representatives. Third, while it is obvious to us, wikipedians, that any individual wiki edit does involve only the responsability and opinion of its author, unless otherwise mentionned, it is clearly not obvious at all for people outside our little circle. As is, the board report posted here by Angela is clearly an official report from the board (http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2005-February/002187.html). However, the article posted on meta (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Google_hosting) is not an official statement by the board in any way. Angela very likely posted it to clarify questions asked by editors on the irc channels. There is absolutely nothing wrong in this. I personally discovered the page only the next day, following the link from the /. article. So I read this page after most bloggers. Does it matter ? Well, we actually face something entirely new for Wikipedia. The fact that a board member can post something casually on meta to inform editors, and this post is considered a board official announcement, and relayed by many bloggers or newspapers as an official statement. The issue is basically not whether the content is accurate or not, or complete or not. The issues are rather : - Did the board wish to make a public announcement ? - If it had done so, would it have been done on meta ? - Is there a difference between family talk on irc only available on editors logs, and statement on a wiki page which can be linked by everyone in the world ? - Does an official non official public statement hurt the likelyhood of the deal or not ? - Now that most editors consider it official, what if the other board members do not fully agree with it ? And mostly : - Now that bloggers and newspapers consider it official, does the Foundation have a right to "control" what appears to be official statement by itself ? To the last question, I definitly answer yes. And I support Mav protecting the page in question. And last point - How are such events where casual discussions are reported as official by public worldwide media gonna impact the future transparency of decision making which "could be" a little bit sensible ? So... please Mark, before complaining of censorship (you may absolutely open a parallel page and comment on the talk page), I will ask you to carefully consider whether you think it proper that a page called by a dozen of major newspapers or blogs and presented as an official page, may be edited by anyone. Someone suggested that I redirect the page to wikimediafoundation.org, but if I had done so, the talk page would not have been available any more. So, I discarded that proposition. I'll also remind that Jimbo, Angela and I are also individuals, and that in most cases, what we say reflect our own opinion, rather than the collective opinion of the board. All what is above is only my opinion, not an official statement by the Foundation :-) Anthere Delirium a ?crit: > Anthere wrote: > >> Jimbo removed the information added by Yann, and I will ask you not to >> add things which are rumors from the Internet, but will appear >> official as soon as WE report them. > > > I'm not sure I will continue to participate in Wikimedia Foundation > activities until this is resolved. In particular, multiple reverts with > no edit summaries from Jimbo, and locking pages after removing > information is no way to run a Wiki. Meta is a place where any user may > place information---you guys can censor wikimediafoundation.org if you > want, but please don't fuck up meta. > > -Mark From beesley at gmail.com Sat Feb 12 13:18:27 2005 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:18:27 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <420DF8C8.4010805@yahoo.com> References: <420CBF14.2000806@gmail.com> <200502111553.22298.yann@forget-me.net> <420CE5DA.2040108@yahoo.com> <420DB373.1030105@hackish.org> <420DF8C8.4010805@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8b722b8005021205186d4b9ae8@mail.gmail.com> Delirium wrote: > I'm not sure I will continue to participate in Wikimedia Foundation > activities until this is resolved. In particular, multiple reverts with > no edit summaries from Jimbo Jimbo made one revert and I explained to Yann by email why the page was locked. > and locking pages after removing information is no way to run a Wiki. The page was locked before that, and was done for reasons of vandalism. Anthere wrote: > However, the article posted on meta > (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Google_hosting) is not an official > statement by the board in any way. Angela very likely posted it to > clarify questions asked by editors on the irc channels. I wrote it after it was being asked about on the mailing list. I thought it was a better idea to have something there as opposed to nothing but rumors on IRC. The page basically says nothing that wasn't already on the mailing list. > I personally discovered the page only > the next day, following the link from the /. article. The page was mentioned on this mailing list before it was on Slashdot. > The fact > that a board member can post something casually on meta to inform > editors, and this post is considered a board official announcement... I believe the fact that a board member did it is irrelevant. Nowhere this page is reported mentions that it was written by me. In fact, off-IRC, this is the first time it's been said that I wrote the page. I doubt, therefore, that the reporters thinking of it as official are basing this view on who wrote it. Most people wouldn't know to check the page history. It wouldn't surprise me if they'd have seen any page on meta as official, regardless of authorship. > - Did the board wish to make a public announcement ? No. It would have been phrased as an announcement if that had been the case. > - If it had done so, would it have been done on meta ? No. Official things should go on the foundation wiki. > - Is there a difference between family talk on irc only available on > editors logs, and statement on a wiki page which can be linked by > everyone in the world ? No. Much of the information reported on the mailing list and Slashdot came from IRC anyway. > - Does an official non official public statement hurt the likelihood of > the deal or not ? Perhaps Jimbo can answer that since he's been in contact with them since the Slashdot article. > - Now that most editors consider it official, what if the other board > members do not fully agree with it ? What exactly do you not agree with? > - Now that bloggers and newspapers consider it official, does the > Foundation have a right to "control" what appears to be official > statement by itself ? Perhaps adding a "this is not official" notice would be better? > All what is above is only my opinion, not an official statement by the > Foundation :-) Ditto. Angela. From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 12 14:00:45 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:00:45 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia References: <420CBF14.2000806@gmail.com> <200502111553.22298.yann@forget-me.net> <420CE5DA.2040108@yahoo.com> <420DB373.1030105@hackish.org> <420DF8C8.4010805@yahoo.com> <8b722b8005021205186d4b9ae8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <420E0C0D.2060001@yahoo.com> Angela a ?crit: >>I personally discovered the page only >>the next day, following the link from the /. article. > > > The page was mentioned on this mailing list before it was on Slashdot. Still, I discovered /. before I read all the mails on the ml :-) I read the mailing lists through gname, so only from home and not all the time. Plus there is a time discrepancy between the moment a mail is posted and it appears on gname. So, no sorry, I discovered it through /. :-) Either way, it does not matter, I just meant to clarify that this was not an official statement. >>- Did the board wish to make a public announcement ? > > > No. It would have been phrased as an announcement if that had been the case. > > >>- If it had done so, would it have been done on meta ? > > > No. Official things should go on the foundation wiki. > > >>- Is there a difference between family talk on irc only available on >>editors logs, and statement on a wiki page which can be linked by >>everyone in the world ? > > > No. Much of the information reported on the mailing list and Slashdot > came from IRC anyway. Yes. This is exactly what I explained to Mark. However, this is not what the outside world understand, because they just do not work as we do. Look at a few announcements : http://www.technewsworld.com/story/news/40554.html "The Wikimedia Foundation, the nonprofit organization that operates the Wikipedia project among others, said Google (Nasdaq: GOOG) Latest News about Google has offered to host part of the free encyclopedia's content. " or "The foundation posted a short announcement on its Web site, which said that the terms (as yet undisclosed) were being considered by the Wikimedia board and that the group would meet with Google sometime in March." with a link the page you created. According to this journalist, what you posted (and that could have been posted by any of us, or even an anonymous person) was interpretated by "The foundation posted". But the Foundation did not posted, you did. Several bloggers just interpret the page the same way as this journal does. The page casually created on meta is said an official announcement. It is not. I do not say it is critical in any way. But that mean what any of us say may be interpretated as "official", and if this is seen official, then it is logical at least that it is protected. Otherwise, it should just be deleted. >>- Now that most editors consider it official, what if the other board >>members do not fully agree with it ? > > > What exactly do you not agree with? I was asked to keep details confidential. >>- Now that bloggers and newspapers consider it official, does the >>Foundation have a right to "control" what appears to be official >>statement by itself ? > > > Perhaps adding a "this is not official" notice would be better? This is too late I fear :-) But why not ? But Angela, in any cases, I think we have to think about this for the future. >>All what is above is only my opinion, not an official statement by the >>Foundation :-) > > > Ditto. > > Angela. I must insist I do not criticize you in any way for setting up that page. The only points which concerns me in the long term are 1) that meta is used as a source of official news which are not and 2) that non official news transformed in official news should be protected without being called censorship. From magnus.manske at web.de Sat Feb 12 14:25:08 2005 From: magnus.manske at web.de (Magnus Manske) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:25:08 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <20050211192641.29383.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050211192641.29383.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <420E11C4.9060300@web.de> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Daniel Mayer schrieb: | --- Delirium wrote: | |>What'd be *really* great is if they also donated a working search |>feature. =D | | | Only if it is free software. Well, they *could* feed their normal search service the data from a DB slave located at the Google farm. That would be (almost) live. Then, they could let us grab the google search results via SOAP and display them as our own, with a little "search powered by google" maybe. Magnus -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCDhHECZKBJbEFcz0RAqEXAJ41h0SRlTrnXdSyE1+k3KsyjHPxfgCdF5HM Zhgi1IC248bhaXPUke7nEto= =Nr1c -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nsk2 at wikinerds.org Sat Feb 12 15:03:15 2005 From: nsk2 at wikinerds.org (NSK) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 17:03:15 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <420E11C4.9060300@web.de> References: <20050211192641.29383.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <420E11C4.9060300@web.de> Message-ID: <200502121703.15486.nsk2@wikinerds.org> On Saturday 12 February 2005 16:25, Magnus Manske wrote: > Well, they *could* feed their normal search service the data from a DB > slave located at the Google farm. That would be (almost) live. Perhaps you should ask them to donate you a Google Mini: http://www.google.com/enterprise/mini/ -- NSK http://portal.wikinerds.org From delirium at hackish.org Sat Feb 12 20:36:30 2005 From: delirium at hackish.org (Delirium) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:36:30 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <420DF8C8.4010805@yahoo.com> References: <420CBF14.2000806@gmail.com> <200502111553.22298.yann@forget-me.net> <420CE5DA.2040108@yahoo.com> <420DB373.1030105@hackish.org> <420DF8C8.4010805@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <420E68CE.4090601@hackish.org> Anthere wrote: > [some stuff] Thanks for the reply; it does seem reasonable enough. I'm pretty uncomfortable with any sort of secrecy, but I'm not going to argue that it's absolutely unallowable in all cases. I'm also a bit uncomfortable with large-budget nonprofit organizations to begin with, especially those with paid employees, and Wikimedia is starting to creep up into that range, so there seem to be some basic philosophical differences in the current direction of the organization and the sort of organization I'd prefer to support. -Mark From christiaan at last-straw.net Sat Feb 12 21:38:52 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:38:52 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Including an STV voting system with MediaWiki Message-ID: <7fd5079b826d568bcf40fadc8b32be26@last-straw.net> With the recent votes on the Wikinews logo it occurred to me how much better it would be if we could do such votes using a proportional preference voting system like STV (Single Transferable Vote). I had a look around and noticed that there is at least one web browser-based STV counting software package out there which is open source and written in PHP. It would be interesting to see if we could adapt this for use in MediaWiki to handle inputs from multiple users over multiple days. http://www.demochoice.org/ Christiaan From erik_moeller at gmx.de Sun Feb 13 03:17:40 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 04:17:40 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Fair use on Wikinews; local uploads disabled Message-ID: <420EC6D4.8070009@gmx.de> Local uploads have been disabled on the English Wikinews from the start. Uploads are only possible through the Wikimedia Commons. This is meant to make the upload of "fair use" images as well as images under other non-free licenses impossible, and generally encourage use of the Commons. The decision to disable uploads on the English Wikinews was made in accord with Jimmy. Uploads on the other wikis were only enabled to begin with in order to allow them to replace the logo. Since that has now happened, local uploads are disabled there as well. In order to nicely integrate a link to the Commons into the sidebar, I suggest using [[MediaWiki:Currentevents]] as well as [[MediaWiki:Currentevents-url]], which are pointless in Wikinews anyway since the entire wiki is about Current Events. You can point those directly to [[Commons:Special:Upload]], which will then put users on the Commons upload form if they are logged in. The decision to disable uploads is not permanent and subject to change. The reasoning behind this decision is as follows. Wikinews is a project which directly competes with major news organizations, magazines and newspapers. It also allows and encourages commercial use of its content. Fair use of photos from a news agency, for example, is very difficult to justify under these circumstances. But regardless of the legal arguments, there is also the practical argument that Wikinews will soon be perceived as a threat, because most of its stories are based on reporting done by others -- and we give it away for free, while they charge money. These people will eventually try to stop us by all means necessary. There is a distinct possibility that we will face issues similar to SCO v. Linux, where a competitor accuses us of stealing content -- even if we didn't. Fair use, being so volatile in its definition, makes a successful attack more likely and opens us up to additional legal risks. That is why uploads will not be enabled until it is fully clear under what circumstances non-free licenses can be allowed. Work is currently being done on the English Wikinews to formulate a "fair use" policy. I encourage other Wikinews editions to do the same. Fair use on Wikinews could encompass things like logos, graphics, screenshots -- or photos that have not been produced by competing organizations and companies. Once that policy is written, we shall submit it to the Board for approval and possibly legal review. If it passes that review, uploads will be re-enabled. The same goes for all the other Wikinews editions. In the meantime, I ask you to only upload images under free licenses or in the public domain, directly to the Wikimedia Commons. Uploading them there does not affect the image syntax at all -- you can use them like you would use a local image. But they will not show up in Wikinews Recent Changes. If the Board would like this decision to be reverted, please let me know. Otherwise I will coordinate the next steps as described. All best, Erik From jwales at wikia.com Sun Feb 13 05:54:17 2005 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:54:17 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <200502112145.24714.yann@forget-me.net> References: <420CBF14.2000806@gmail.com> <200502111553.22298.yann@forget-me.net> <420CE5DA.2040108@yahoo.com> <200502112145.24714.yann@forget-me.net> Message-ID: <20050213055417.GK19851@wikia.com> Yann Forget wrote: > Anthere, the information i added come from the foundation-l mailing list, not > "rumors from the Internet". Well, foundation-l is an unmoderated mailing list on the Internet, no? :-) --Jimbo From jwales at wikia.com Sun Feb 13 06:23:16 2005 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:23:16 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? In-Reply-To: <420A5EB8.2080606@yahoo.com> References: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> <420A4EE8.2070807@yahoo.com> <05f501c50ed8$75bbbd90$7f00a8c0@akl> <420A5EB8.2080606@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050213062316.GD30708@wikia.com> Anthere wrote: > >That sounds not very plausible because to my knowledge the US trademark > >is a pre-condition to apply for registration in the EU according to the > >Madrid Agreement. > > Well, still... according to Jimbo... this is a fact. The pre-condition is actually an *application* in the US. I had the same misconception as akl for a long time. There's a Madrid Protocol and a Madrid Agreement, and they are different. > I am interested by this agreement ... you mean something can't get > protected unless it is first protected in the USA ??? There's a concept of a "home" country and "other countries". If you are registering first in France, then you can use that to get protection in the US. That is, it is because we are based in the US that the US had to be done first. (Or maybe not, it's all very confusing, all I really know is how I did it.) If you were registering in France, that would have to go first. (Or maybe EU-wide first, I really have no clue.) > Nod. Jimbo promised to do it within the next few days. If not, we need > to torture him to do so. :-) The stuff is on my desk to give all details. --Jimbo From brion at pobox.com Sun Feb 13 07:52:33 2005 From: brion at pobox.com (Brion Vibber) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 23:52:33 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <20050213055417.GK19851@wikia.com> References: <420CBF14.2000806@gmail.com> <200502111553.22298.yann@forget-me.net> <420CE5DA.2040108@yahoo.com> <200502112145.24714.yann@forget-me.net> <20050213055417.GK19851@wikia.com> Message-ID: <420F0741.2030403@pobox.com> Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote: > Yann Forget wrote: >> Anthere, the information i added come from the foundation-l mailing >> list, not "rumors from the Internet". > > > Well, foundation-l is an unmoderated mailing list on the Internet, > no? :-) "You can edit this official board announcement right now!" Side note: I spent all Saturday sitting in a booth in the Southern California Linux Expo exhibition hall demoing Wikipedia and talking to people about just what this crazy thing of ours is. Maybe half the people I talked to who already knew what we were (and that's most of the people with the courage to talk to me!) asked about the Google thing... It's kind of frustrating when "big news" breaks at this stage, because I don't really have any details to give them and have to hem and haw that it's still at the early offer stages and there's nothing solid. C'est la vie... :) -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 253 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20050212/dc34ab4b/attachment.pgp From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 13 10:53:46 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 11:53:46 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? References: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> <420A4EE8.2070807@yahoo.com> <05f501c50ed8$75bbbd90$7f00a8c0@akl> <420A5EB8.2080606@yahoo.com> <20050213062316.GD30708@wikia.com> Message-ID: <420F31BA.5010309@yahoo.com> Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales a ?crit: > Anthere wrote: > >>>That sounds not very plausible because to my knowledge the US trademark >>>is a pre-condition to apply for registration in the EU according to the >>>Madrid Agreement. >> >>Well, still... according to Jimbo... this is a fact. > > > The pre-condition is actually an *application* in the US. I had the same > misconception as akl for a long time. There's a Madrid Protocol and a > Madrid Agreement, and they are different. > > >>I am interested by this agreement ... you mean something can't get >>protected unless it is first protected in the USA ??? > > > There's a concept of a "home" country and "other countries". If you > are registering first in France, then you can use that to get > protection in the US. That is, it is because we are based in the US > that the US had to be done first. (Or maybe not, it's all very > confusing, all I really know is how I did it.) If you were > registering in France, that would have to go first. (Or maybe EU-wide > first, I really have no clue.) Oh, right. That really makes sense then... In this case, akl is really correct... it is curious we got the protection in Europe and Japan before getting it in the home country :-) Anthere >>Nod. Jimbo promised to do it within the next few days. If not, we need >>to torture him to do so. > > > :-) > > The stuff is on my desk to give all details. > > --Jimbo From wikipedia at klempert.de Sun Feb 13 13:45:47 2005 From: wikipedia at klempert.de (Arne Klempert) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:45:47 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? References: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> <420A4EE8.2070807@yahoo.com><05f501c50ed8$75bbbd90$7f00a8c0@akl> <420A5EB8.2080606@yahoo.com> <20050213062316.GD30708@wikia.com> Message-ID: <07bd01c511d2$5305f1b0$4800a8c0@homeworker> Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote: > > Nod. Jimbo promised to do it within the next few days. If not, we need > > to torture him to do so. > > :-) > > The stuff is on my desk to give all details. I found public information from the US Patent and Trademark Office (including Madrid Protocol information) that are obviously up to date: http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=searchss&state=ip39pb.1.1 Search Term: "Wikimedia" Field: "ALL" 1 78507335 MEDIA WIKI Status: http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=78507335 2 78483359 WIKIPEDIA Status: http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=78483359 3 78507349 WIKINEWS Status: http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=78507349 To get back to the subject, I propose the registration of "Wikimedia" -Arne (akl) From wikipedia at klempert.de Sun Feb 13 13:51:27 2005 From: wikipedia at klempert.de (Arne Klempert) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:51:27 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? References: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de><420A4EE8.2070807@yahoo.com><05f501c50ed8$75bbbd90$7f00a8c0@akl><420A5EB8.2080606@yahoo.com> <20050213062316.GD30708@wikia.com> <07bd01c511d2$5305f1b0$4800a8c0@homeworker> Message-ID: <07c901c511d3$1d96c940$4800a8c0@homeworker> Arne Klempert wrote: > > I found public information from the US Patent and Trademark Office > (including Madrid Protocol information) that are obviously up to date: > > http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=searchss&state=ip39pb.1.1 > Search Term: "Wikimedia" > Field: "ALL" Damn! (Sessions) Move to http://www.uspto.gov/main/trademarks.htm and click "SEARCH trademarks" -Arne (akl) From juvasul at ut.ee Sun Feb 13 14:50:24 2005 From: juvasul at ut.ee (Sulev Iva) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:50:24 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] =?windows-1257?q?Re=3A_=5BWikipedia-l=5D_V=F5ro_V?= =?windows-1257?q?ikipeedi=E4?= In-Reply-To: <8b722b800502021011eb7dfd4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <415SN538HEWQUQ2XC0KJ7172FCZTNJ.420f6930@t-sopnv013al8s1> Dear members of Wikipedia-l and Foundation-l, I asked for creation of V?ro Wikipedia last month in foundation-l and request page: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages#V.C3.B5ro_Wikipedia. Angela forwarded it also to the Wikipedia-l. It was proposed in the discussion that the code for V?ro Wikipedia could be for the first time "fiu-vro" or "fiu-voro". There was no serious objections against creating. Does somebody know when the V?ro Wikipedia will be created? (By the way: on what the creation depends, who and when decides it?) What else should be done by me before? Regards Sulev (V?rok) 2.02.2005 20:11:58, Angela kirot': >Forwarding from foundation-l to wikipedia-l since there was no >reaction on that list.... > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >From: Sulev Iva >Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 19:43:52 +0200 >Subject: [Foundation-l] V?ro Vikipeedi? >To: foundation-l at wikimedia.org > > >Dear members of the foundaton, >I'm a user of Estonian (V?rok) and English Wikipedia (V?rolang) and a >native speaker, >researcher and activist of the V?ro language spoken in Estonia. V?ro >(native name V?ro >or V?ro kiil?) belongs to the Finnic branch of the Finno-Ugric >languages. It has about >70.000 speakers mostly in southern Estonia. >Language codes (not yet official) are Vro and Vr. See more about V?ro in >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V?ro and http://www.wi.ee/. > >I and my friends would like to begin with V?ro language Wikipedia. We >can translate >Estonian language file to V?ro (actually we have already started) and begin with >creation of new articles. Of course your objection may be that there are too few >speakers of V?ro. Yes, but the speakers are quite active and >computerized people and >the V?ro language community needs an encyclopedia in their own >language. I'm sure the >number of potential editors in V?ro is not smaller than the Kashoub, >Cornish, Gaelic, >Faroese or Saami's or many other small languages' one. I have >discussed the idea of >V?ro Wikipedia with Estonian Wikipedia developers: Andres, Ker, Klaus etc. >(http://et.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikipeedia:Community_Portal#V.C3.B5rukeelne_Wikipedia). >They are supporting the idea and will help us. I hope you will support us too. >Best regards, V?rolang -- 80.235.61.143 11:33, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC) >_______________________________________________ >Wikipedia-l mailing list >Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org >http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l > From gerard.meijssen at gmail.com Sun Feb 13 21:39:04 2005 From: gerard.meijssen at gmail.com (Gerard Meijssen) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:39:04 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] IFAP Message-ID: <420FC8F8.8090000@gmail.com> Hoi, I have written a proposal on grants.wikimedia.org In it you find a proposal for spending as much as we can get from UNESCO under their IFAP program. To ask for this grant we HAVE to apply before the 20th of Februari. http://www.unesco.org/webworld/ifapprojects/manuals/instructions.pdf is the PDF with the instructions that we have to comply with. One issue is that we have to involve the national IFAP committees .. :( I do not see how this can be done practically) This will have to be discussed how this is to be done practically.. One answer that can be given is, that we are already working towards our goals. The money we ask for will give our efforts a shot in the arm. There are two considerations: When we apply for this grant, we will have to spend the money according to how we apply for the grant. This means that we have to do this, criticism from any and all not withstanding. Another thing is that by asking for grants, we let big donors decide how we spend money and we will have admin because of it. It makes sense to allow our smaller donors also to have this spending power. Please read "Donations: putting your money where your mouth is" on Meta.. Thanks, Gerard From walter at wikipedia.be Sun Feb 13 21:54:50 2005 From: walter at wikipedia.be (Walter Vermeir) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:54:50 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Promo-stuff shop of openstuff. In-Reply-To: <1107886671.834230.278460559.11862.23@ticket.wikimedia.org> References: <10097.82.174.201.237.1107855693.squirrel@82.174.201.237> <1107886671.834230.278460559.11862.23@ticket.wikimedia.org> Message-ID: Wikimedia Foundation schreef: > ---- Forwarded message from "Walter Vermeir ." ---- > > >>Hi, >> >>This shop is selling stuff from opensource projects; >>http://openstuff.net [cut] Thanks for the support. I contact openstuff to ask what the options are. -- [[w:nl:gebruiker:walter]] From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Sun Feb 13 22:18:05 2005 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:18:05 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] IFAP In-Reply-To: <420FC8F8.8090000@gmail.com> References: <420FC8F8.8090000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <742dfd0605021314186486f86e@mail.gmail.com> For more information about this grant (which you can actually read and edit), see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants/IFAP. Another proposal for the UNESCO grant, suggested to me by some librarian friends of mine, is also listed on that Meta: page. Please discuss the relative merits of the two proposals on the discussion page. I worry that the wiktionary proposal is not closely-enough aligned with the current grant goals... though of course it is in line with the much vaguer and more general IFAP goals. The primary goals for the current grant are more about educating professionals than about producing content : [ ] Promoting information literacy, through capacity building particularly for information professionals [ ] Strengthening awareness about the importance of preservation of information of all kinds [ ] Promoting a better understanding of the ethical, legal and societal implications of ICTs ( ICTs : Information and Communication Technologies ) --SJ PS -- please develop basic grant proposals on meta, since not everyone has access to the grants wiki (and it is mainly for the rare bits of information which for whatever reason shouldn't be public and googlable). On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:39:04 +0100, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > Hoi, > I have written a proposal on grants.wikimedia.org In it you find a > proposal for spending as much as we can get from UNESCO under their IFAP > program. To ask for this grant we HAVE to apply before the 20th of Februari. > > http://www.unesco.org/webworld/ifapprojects/manuals/instructions.pdf is > the PDF with the instructions that we have to comply with. > > One issue is that we have to involve the national IFAP committees .. :( > I do not see how this can be done practically) This will have to be > discussed how this is to be done practically.. > One answer that can be given is, that we are already working towards our > goals. From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 13 22:31:34 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:31:34 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: IFAP References: <420FC8F8.8090000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <420FD546.4090703@yahoo.com> Hello Just in case some people wonder where this comes from... We had a grant meeting today on irc (as announced a couple of days ago on this list). It lasted nearly three hours, and was extremely fruitful. Some of the grants we are thinking of will be worked on meta, while others will be worked on the grant wiki. Please contact Danny if you are interested in giving some of your time and energy to these topics. Meanwhile, any feedback is welcome on meta. Thanks Anthere Gerard Meijssen a ?crit: > Hoi, > I have written a proposal on grants.wikimedia.org In it you find a > proposal for spending as much as we can get from UNESCO under their IFAP > program. To ask for this grant we HAVE to apply before the 20th of Februari. > > http://www.unesco.org/webworld/ifapprojects/manuals/instructions.pdf is > the PDF with the instructions that we have to comply with. > > One issue is that we have to involve the national IFAP committees .. :( > I do not see how this can be done practically) This will have to be > discussed how this is to be done practically.. > One answer that can be given is, that we are already working towards our > goals. > > The money we ask for will give our efforts a shot in the arm. There are > two considerations: When we apply for this grant, we will have to spend > the money according to how we apply for the grant. This means that we > have to do this, criticism from any and all not withstanding. Another > thing is that by asking for grants, we let big donors decide how we > spend money and we will have admin because of it. It makes sense to > allow our smaller donors also to have this spending power. Please read > "Donations: putting your money where your mouth is" on Meta.. > > Thanks, > Gerard From charles.podles at gmail.com Mon Feb 14 00:43:14 2005 From: charles.podles at gmail.com (Charles Podles) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:43:14 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] On the blocking of anonymous proxies Message-ID: An anonymous user posted the following on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Blocking_policy : == Blocking anonymizer's proxies is unconstitutional == *'''The right to anonymous free speech is protected by the 1st amendment of the US constitution.''' *'''Anonymity--the ability to conceal one's identity while communicating--enables the expression of political ideas and the practice of religious belief without fear of intimidation or public retaliation.''' :''Protections for anonymous speech are vital to democratic discourse. Allowing dissenters to shield their identities frees them to express critical, minority views . . . Anonymity is a shield from the tyranny of the majority. . . . It thus exemplifies the purpose behind the Bill of Rights, and of the First Amendment in particular: to protect unpopular individuals from retaliation . . . at the hand of an intolerant society.'' :Supreme Court ruling in McIntyre v. Ohio Elections Commission, 1995. Some Wikipedia members (sysops) have implemented a policy to routinely block users that choose to post using an anonymous proxy ([[Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Anonymous_and_open_proxies]]) These members of Wikipedia have decided to block the ability of people to the right of anonymity giving reasons related to the need to curb vandalism of articles. These are not sufficient reasons to limit my liberties and the liberties of others. The WP community is strong enough to withstand vandalism, without resorting to these measures. Case in point: On February 9, [[User:David.Monniaux]] blocked IP address 168.143.113.125 (anonymizer.com), a respected and paid service for anonymous browsing. This IP address was used by hundreds of WP users that wanted to protect their anonymity. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=168.143.113.125. The steps taken by David Monniaux in blocking of that IP address have been disputed by me. ([[Talk:French_legislation_against_cult_abuses#Controversy_with_an_anonymous_user]]. I kindly request Wikipedia editors to re-open the debate about the right of the people to contribute to Wikipedia while protecting their rights to free speech, and to curb sysop powers to utilize blocking policies. Copies of the above have been sent to: * The Electronic Privacy Information Center http://epic.org/ * The Electronic Frontier Foundation http://www.eff.org/ * The American Civil Liberties Union http://aclu.org/ --[[User:38.119.107.72|38.119.107.72]] 23:53, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC) From charles.podles at gmail.com Mon Feb 14 00:45:39 2005 From: charles.podles at gmail.com (Charles Podles) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:45:39 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] On the blocking of anonymous proxies (pt. 2) Message-ID: (Last message accidentally sent prematurely---sorry. Continued:) Is s/he just blowing smoke, or is this a serious issue? What is the relationship between the policy of each Wikipedia and the policies of the Foundation in general? From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Mon Feb 14 02:01:25 2005 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:01:25 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: IFAP In-Reply-To: <420FD546.4090703@yahoo.com> References: <420FC8F8.8090000@gmail.com> <420FD546.4090703@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <742dfd0605021318012f0282ee@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:31:34 +0100, Anthere wrote: > Hello > > Just in case some people wonder where this comes from... > We had a grant meeting today on irc (as announced a couple of days ago > on this list). It lasted nearly three hours, and was extremely fruitful. Speaking of meetings, will there be another meeting to discuss NEH grants and searching for further applicable grants? > Meanwhile, any feedback is welcome on meta. Where on meta should people give general feedback on Grants? Is there a place to suggest new grants, or to suggest project proposals for which we should find a suitable grant? Cheers, +sj+ From robert_horning at netzero.net Mon Feb 14 02:30:24 2005 From: robert_horning at netzero.net (Robert Scott Horning) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:30:24 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Shavian Wikis References: Message-ID: <42100D40.5040407@netzero.net> Joe wrote: >On 2/11/05 5:50 PM, "Brion Vibber" wrote: > > >>Tok Pisin is a creole language which is spoken natively by actual >>people. The 'Simple English' Wikipedia was created long, long ago and to >>this day it's unclear what its intended mission is. >> >> > >If the English loanwords in Tok Pisin were spelled the same as their English >origins, much of it would be mutually intelligible. Besides the slight >difference in grammar and various words from other languages, the biggest >difference is in spelling. This isn't meant to be an exact match, >though--just an example. I recognize the difference. > > > I've had a chance to hear native speakers of Tok Pisin. For a native English speaker, it is a really bizzare experience, because you start listening to them speak, and you think you understand about 50%-60% of what they are speaking due to familiar words. Then suddenly as you start listening a bit more you discover that you are completely lost and don't even have a clue as to what is being said. From my own linguistic experience, I would have to say that I understand a native German speaker due to cognates better than I understand a native Tok Pisin speaker. If you are trying to determine if a language is truly unique enough to justify having it as a seperate language wiki on Wikipedia, Tok Pisin clearly fits the bill with some very different language structures than are commonly found in English, and IMHO qualifies as a seperate language. Certainly as different as between Dutch or German or between Spanish and Portuguese, and perhaps more so. The only hesitation to creating it as a language Wikipedia is sheer number of participants able to contribute content, and at the moment I'm not volunteering. It does appear, however, that roughly 26 people have already volunteered to add content to the current Tok Pisin Wikipedia and about 60 articles. ( http://tpi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page ) -- Robert Scott Horning 218 Sunstone Circle Logan, UT 84321 (435) 753-3330 robert_horning at netzero.net From kylelutze at cox.net Mon Feb 14 03:41:11 2005 From: kylelutze at cox.net (kylelutze) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:41:11 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] On the blocking of anonymous proxies (pt. 2) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42101DD7.50304@cox.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 well, here's my question then, if you don't want to block proxies, then what is your suggestion to take care of the massive ammount of spam? wikipedia isn't ment to be an opinion based site for people to express their views, it's meant to be an encyclopedia, stating only the facts, so why would people need to be anonymous when editing or adding new articles, unless trolling? On another point, for blocking proxies, it may be nice to somehow take advantage of the abusive host blocking list (ahbl.org, hosted by sosdg.org). I believe that's the one for blocking proxies, etc. or there may be another one on that site. I personally believe that proxies shouldn't be used for going to wikipedia as you can hide your IP by creating an account. Kyle Charles Podles wrote: | (Last message accidentally sent prematurely---sorry. Continued:) | | Is s/he just blowing smoke, or is this a serious issue? What is the | relationship between the policy of each Wikipedia and the policies of | the Foundation in general? | _______________________________________________ | foundation-l mailing list | foundation-l at wikimedia.org | http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCEB3XqTDXh8jUGRYRAhUdAJ9ymdOsr4OohxP+jsakQ7Fu7pqZmwCfdRoU 6kBndC8WvyqKarYJFCAveFQ= =gr19 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From walter at vankalken.net Mon Feb 14 05:04:35 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:04:35 +0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] On the blocking of anonymous proxies (pt. 2) In-Reply-To: <42101DD7.50304@cox.net> References: <42101DD7.50304@cox. net> Message-ID: <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> kylelutze wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > well, here's my question then, if you don't want to block proxies, then > what is your suggestion to take care of the massive ammount of spam? > wikipedia isn't ment to be an opinion based site for people to express > their views, it's meant to be an encyclopedia, stating only the facts, > so why would people need to be anonymous when editing or adding new > articles, unless trolling? > > On another point, for blocking proxies, it may be nice to somehow take > advantage of the abusive host blocking list (ahbl.org, hosted by > sosdg.org). I believe that's the one for blocking proxies, etc. or there > may be another one on that site. I personally believe that proxies > shouldn't be used for going to wikipedia as you can hide your IP by > creating an account. > > Kyle > Well if you propose blocking these you propose blocking ME and a couple of hundred thousand Thai's who are with True / Asia internet as the provider forces us to use open proxies. I am one of the most active editors on nl.wikipedia. So they will be glad to hear you think that. For your info I cannot change internet ISP. I wonder how many other people this is the case for! Walter van Kalken (Waerth) From anthere9 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 14 05:09:01 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 06:09:01 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: IFAP References: <420FC8F8.8090000@gmail.com> <420FD546.4090703@yahoo.com> <742dfd0605021318012f0282ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4210326D.3030008@yahoo.com> Sj a ?crit: > On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:31:34 +0100, Anthere wrote: > >>Hello >> >>Just in case some people wonder where this comes from... >>We had a grant meeting today on irc (as announced a couple of days ago >>on this list). It lasted nearly three hours, and was extremely fruitful. > > > Speaking of meetings, will there be another meeting to discuss NEH > grants and searching for further applicable grants? Most probably since we did not have the time to discuss it yesterday. This would be best done when we have first covered the ones discussed yesterday but sufficiently in time before the next ones deadlines. >>Meanwhile, any feedback is welcome on meta. > > > Where on meta should people give general feedback on Grants? > Is there a place to suggest new grants, or to suggest project proposals > for which we should find a suitable grant? > > Cheers, > +sj+ On http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/grants (which would benefit from a clean up), its related pages and talk pages :-) Ant From walter at vankalken.net Mon Feb 14 05:47:26 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:47:26 +0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] blocked again op Japan In-Reply-To: <42101DD7.50304@cox.net> References: <42101DD7.50304@cox. net> Message-ID: <42103B6E.7090904@vankalken.net> And again I am blocked on the Japanese wikipedia. You almost think they do not want to have editors who actually make usefull edits. I might start removing interwiki links to Japanese wikipedia from nl: as they do now want strangers to edit and thus directly violate the spirit of wikipedia. Frustrated, Waerth From kylelutze at cox.net Mon Feb 14 05:58:04 2005 From: kylelutze at cox.net (kylelutze) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:58:04 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] On the blocking of anonymous proxies (pt. 2) In-Reply-To: <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> References: <42101DD7.50304@cox. net> <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 sorry, I didn't know that was the situation for people there, in that case I think we need to come up with a better alternative solution, what, I don't know yet Walter van Kalken wrote: | kylelutze wrote: | |> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- |> Hash: SHA1 |> |> |> well, here's my question then, if you don't want to block proxies, then |> what is your suggestion to take care of the massive ammount of spam? |> wikipedia isn't ment to be an opinion based site for people to express |> their views, it's meant to be an encyclopedia, stating only the facts, |> so why would people need to be anonymous when editing or adding new |> articles, unless trolling? |> |> On another point, for blocking proxies, it may be nice to somehow take |> advantage of the abusive host blocking list (ahbl.org, hosted by |> sosdg.org). I believe that's the one for blocking proxies, etc. or there |> may be another one on that site. I personally believe that proxies |> shouldn't be used for going to wikipedia as you can hide your IP by |> creating an account. |> |> Kyle |> | Well if you propose blocking these you propose blocking ME and a couple | of hundred thousand Thai's who are with True / Asia internet as the | provider forces us to use open proxies. I am one of the most active | editors on nl.wikipedia. So they will be glad to hear you think that. | For your info I cannot change internet ISP. I wonder how many other | people this is the case for! | | Walter van Kalken (Waerth) | _______________________________________________ | foundation-l mailing list | foundation-l at wikimedia.org | http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCED3rqTDXh8jUGRYRAte1AJ0VgHa6voX2AipdmEznPD6JG2w/lgCeK68W Oevt6XMIkF4lIkYcVY3bPtk= =E2BX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From walter at vankalken.net Mon Feb 14 06:10:09 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:10:09 +0700 Subject: >>: Re: [Foundation-l] On the blocking of anonymous proxies (pt. 2) In-Reply-To: <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> References: <42101DD7.50304@cox. net> <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> Message-ID: <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> kylelutze wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > sorry, I didn't know that was the situation for people there, in that > case I think we need to come up with a better alternative solution, > what, I don't know yet > You don't have to .... after the IRC conversation just now ,,, I think quitting wikipedia is better. I cannot believe people think everywhere is the same as in the merry States or Europe. I have to spend HALF AN HOUR of my fucking day whining just so I can make some small edits??????????? Walter/Waerth From walter at vankalken.net Mon Feb 14 14:13:42 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 21:13:42 +0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Blocking on Japan In-Reply-To: <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> References: <42101DD7.50304@cox. net> <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> It took some but for today I am unblocked do not know for how long though :( I placed this on Japanese wikipedia today Walter van Kalken My name is Waerth, or in real life Walter. I am a Dutch person living in Thailand. I am active on the nl:, en:, af: and th: wikimedia projects. In the last two months everytime I try to do something here I am blocked ... at least my ip address is blocked not my username. Now I heard japanese wikipedia has a blocking policy for open proxies. I understand they give problems. But I also know some people are forced by their ISP's to use them. Like myself. My ISP uses it and I have no choice. I cannot break contract because it would cost me 6000 Thai baht. And my provider gives a good service, I get a discount of 20% on my mobile and home telephone because I use them and they are one company. This provider ... Asianet is used by more than 300.000 people in Thailand. Many Thai people are genuinely interested in Japan and learning Japanese. Also there are many Japanese in Thailand. Some of which will use Asianet as well! By blocking open proxies you are shutting out millions of people of enjoying the Japanese wikipedia. And you are directly violating one of the wikimedia projects goals,,.. to be accessable to everybody. I can complain about this policy because I know how wikipedia works. Many people can not complain because they do not know how to do that. So they go away frustrated and you loose potential contributors. How do I think you can solve this? On dutch nl: I am a sysop and a proponent of hard blocking policies. If somebody vandalizes they get blocked for 24 hours, period. I heard there are problems on Japanese wikipedia with getting sysops and there is a shortage of hands so that is why Japanese as the only wikipedia decided to block open proxies. So you need to get more sysops. Being a sysop doesn't mean much. You just help to keep wikipedia clean. It is not about power!! All you get is some extra buttons to revert vandalism, secure a page and block a vandal. I want to urge on all active users to ask for sysop status to solve this problem! You see if everybody is a sysop, there are no problems with power! because everybody is the same .... a sysop. And everybody can spend 10 minutes a week on cleaning. It is not much extra work really. And than it is easy to unblock the open proxies. Because you have a big group of sysops to stop the vandals! And welcome the people that couldn't use Japanese wikipedia before now. From walter at vankalken.net Mon Feb 14 15:35:02 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 22:35:02 +0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> References: <42101DD7.50304@cox. net> <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> Well it was nice for the 2 or 3 hours I was able to do something. I am blocked yet again op Japanese wikipedia. Waerth/Walter van Kalken From a2k_mail at yahoo.com Mon Feb 14 15:53:01 2005 From: a2k_mail at yahoo.com (Reuven R.) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 07:53:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] wow the whole thing sounds amazingly .... Message-ID: <20050214155304.84774.qmail@web53209.mail.yahoo.com> heyo... i really can't belive it - there're people who actually care enough to help and are constantly block and don't give up... sounds to me like you have some quality support here - i don't know that many other places where people would insist to donate their time and efforts where they seem to _not be welcome_... and for gods sake, it's a wiki - from my expirience vandalism can be undone by users... (that and 1001 other reasons why it doesn't make the least sense on a wiki... o_O) ohh well... (did i mention that it makes no sense?) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From wurdbendur at gmail.com Mon Feb 14 23:45:09 2005 From: wurdbendur at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:45:09 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Shavian Wikis In-Reply-To: <42100D40.5040407@netzero.net> Message-ID: On 2/13/05 9:30 PM, "Robert Scott Horning" wrote: > Joe wrote: >> >> If the English loanwords in Tok Pisin were spelled the same as their English >> origins, much of it would be mutually intelligible. Besides the slight >> difference in grammar and various words from other languages, the biggest >> difference is in spelling. This isn't meant to be an exact match, >> though--just an example. I recognize the difference. >> >> >> > I've had a chance to hear native speakers of Tok Pisin. For a native > English speaker, it is a really bizzare experience, because you start > listening to them speak, and you think you understand about 50%-60% of > what they are speaking due to familiar words. Then suddenly as you > start listening a bit more you discover that you are completely lost and > don't even have a clue as to what is being said. From my own linguistic > experience, I would have to say that I understand a native German > speaker due to cognates better than I understand a native Tok Pisin speaker. I admit, I haven't heard it spoken natively, but I was able to work out most of the grammar after no more than a couple hours of reading. Maybe that's more of a testament to its simplicity than its similarity. I've been working a little on the Tok Pisin Wikipedia under the name WurdBendur (which I also use on en:). It doesn't seem very active, but I assure you that a Shavian Wikipedia would at least match it. > If you are trying to determine if a language is truly unique enough to > justify having it as a seperate language wiki on Wikipedia, Tok Pisin > clearly fits the bill with some very different language structures than > are commonly found in English, and IMHO qualifies as a seperate > language. Certainly as different as between Dutch or German or between > Spanish and Portuguese, and perhaps more so. Probably more, but my real point was not so much about the actual difference as it was about its status as a language. While Tok Pisin is different enough to be a unique language in its own right, it's typically labeled as a pidgin and said to be simply bad English. It doesn't seem to be widely used online, and information about it is scarce. There may be more Shavian users on Wikimedia. A Shavian Wiki would be even more similar to the English one (exactly the same except for spelling). But I'm wondering if there would be a way to offer Shavian without creating a new Wikipedia. There are converters that could transcribe the English automatically (though not very accurately), which might be integrated into Wikipedia. Alternatively, phonemic (or phonetic) text could be stored as one Wikipedia and very easily converted by simple substitution between several phonemic alphabets or spelling systems. This could serve a purpose similar to the Simple English Wikipedia, that being to aid people who don't understand written English well (or who have difficulty pronouncing it in the case of a phonemic Wiki). But if this were possible, it could effectively combine Shavian, Unifon, ITA, IPA, and others in a single Wiki. Are there other Wikis that convert scripts, say between Roman and Cyrillic for example, or has this been considered before? > The only hesitation to creating it as a language Wikipedia is sheer > number of participants able to contribute content, and at the moment I'm > not volunteering. It does appear, however, that roughly 26 people have > already volunteered to add content to the current Tok Pisin Wikipedia > and about 60 articles. ( http://tpi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page ) I'm not contesting Tok Pisin, though. I fully support it if people (like myself) want to use and edit it. Regards, Joe From andreengels at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 14:33:21 2005 From: andreengels at gmail.com (Andre Engels) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:33:21 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> References: <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <6faf39c9050215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> Does anyone have to say anything about this? Or should I just start to collect Japanese IP-addresses to block them on nl: to get a reaction? Andre Engels On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 22:35:02 +0700, Walter van Kalken wrote: > Well it was nice for the 2 or 3 hours I was able to do something. I am > blocked yet again op Japanese wikipedia. > > Waerth/Walter van Kalken From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Tue Feb 15 14:35:49 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 01:35:49 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <6faf39c9050215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> References: <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> <6faf39c9050215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org.au> Andre Engels (andreengels at gmail.com) [050216 01:33]: > On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 22:35:02 +0700, Walter van Kalken > wrote: > > Well it was nice for the 2 or 3 hours I was able to do something. I am > > blocked yet again op Japanese wikipedia. > Does anyone have to say anything about this? Or should I just start to > collect Japanese IP-addresses to block them on nl: to get a reaction? If the ISP in question really is running an open proxy server, then Walter needs to bring it to their attention that this is leaving an abuse-machine wide open, just as if it were an open email relay being used by spammers. - d. From andreengels at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 14:35:55 2005 From: andreengels at gmail.com (Andre Engels) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:35:55 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Blocking on Japan In-Reply-To: <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> References: <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <6faf39c905021506357b77acd@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 21:13:42 +0700, Walter van Kalken wrote: > How do I think you can solve this? On dutch nl: I am a sysop and a > proponent of hard blocking policies. If somebody vandalizes they get > blocked for 24 hours, period. I heard there are problems on Japanese > wikipedia with getting sysops and there is a shortage of hands so that > is why Japanese as the only wikipedia decided to block open proxies. So > you need to get more sysops. I find it rather strange for you to call for hard blocking policy. Apparently you don't mind blocking someone because there are 2 vandals on the same computer or same IP-address, and yet you are complaining for being blocked because there are 50 in the same country. Is there that much difference? Andre Engels From aphaia at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 14:36:01 2005 From: aphaia at gmail.com (Aphaia) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 23:36:01 +0900 Subject: [Foundation-l] [Foundation Site] Update and need of translators Message-ID: <35be2a7105021506366b899299@mail.gmail.com> Before the foundraising, I propose to update the foundation wiki, http://wikimediafoudation.org. I tried to update some pages like "Main page", "Our Projects" and other pages I could update with assistance of some editors and traslators. Until now, besides En, main page was updated in four languages pages (DE, FR, JA, PL). Here I am grateful for our friend translators. But we need much more assistance, more translators. Here is the current situation of major pages: Home - De En Es Fi Fr It Ja Ko Pl Pt Zh About Wikimedia - En Fi Fr It Ja Ko Zh- Our Projects - En Fr It Ja Nl Pt Zh Fundraising - Ar Bg Cs De En Es Fi Fr He It Ja Ko Nl Pl Pt Sv Zh And of course other language translations are welcome. Now there are language barriers and lack of information for us, most of pages on the wmf site remain still not updated. And I expect many visitors of the wmf site, not only donors but also genuine visitors enjoy browsing the wmf site. In my personal view, it were sad only one page is avalable in tongues I can understand ... Some of them was not edited since last September and I feel strongly they need to be renewed: it is a bit clumsy "the latest news" ended in the last September. And I found almost every page should be a bit outdated (it is a self-criticism rather than blame. I am an wmf site editor and left pages too for a long time). I recommend and ask you to check the main page in your language(s) of the wmf site. Particularly the language which has their own donation page. It would be nicer and more frinedly, if we can provide the visitors at least three other pages: Main Page, About and Our Projects. (Any suggestions?) If you would like to join us, please consider to give a look on meta, Translation requests/WMF. URL is: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF#Home The close inforamtion of update are available on that page. If you have a question, please ask it on its talk, #wikimedia or my talk. Your assistance will be appliciated. See you again on meta. ;-) -- Aphaea@*.wikipedia.org email: Aphaia @ gmail (dot) com From walter at vankalken.net Tue Feb 15 15:08:21 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 22:08:21 +0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <42103163.2000706@va nkalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4 210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> <6faf39c905 0215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org.a u> Message-ID: <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> David Gerard wrote: >Andre Engels (andreengels at gmail.com) [050216 01:33]: > > >>On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 22:35:02 +0700, Walter van Kalken >> wrote: >> >> > > > >>>Well it was nice for the 2 or 3 hours I was able to do something. I am >>>blocked yet again op Japanese wikipedia. >>> >>> > > > >>Does anyone have to say anything about this? Or should I just start to >>collect Japanese IP-addresses to block them on nl: to get a reaction? >> >> > > >If the ISP in question really is running an open proxy server, then Walter >needs to bring it to their attention that this is leaving an abuse-machine >wide open, just as if it were an open email relay being used by spammers. > > > > This is not my responsibility. Wikipedia is an open project and it should be open for anyone. Waerth/Walter From andreengels at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 15:26:09 2005 From: andreengels at gmail.com (Andre Engels) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 16:26:09 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] On the blocking of anonymous proxies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6faf39c90502150726107e92bf@mail.gmail.com> Wikipedia is in no way under an obligation to allow anyone to speak out on their pages, just like a publisher is not under an obligation to publish your book. I very much am opposed against blocking anonymous proxies on sight (at least, beyond what is necessary to stop actual ongoing vandalism), but there are no first amendment rights violated. Wikipedia is giving certain means of communication to some, in fact to many, people. It is under no legal obligation to do so, nor to extend this possibility in any way. We are not forbidding or disabling you or anyone else to speak out their mind. We are just restricting who can use OUR material to do so. Andre Engels On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:43:14 -0500, Charles Podles wrote: > An anonymous user posted the following on > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Blocking_policy : > > == Blocking anonymizer's proxies is unconstitutional == > > *'''The right to anonymous free speech is protected by the 1st > amendment of the US constitution.''' > > *'''Anonymity--the ability to conceal one's identity while > communicating--enables the expression of political ideas and the > practice of religious belief without fear of intimidation or public > retaliation.''' > > :''Protections for anonymous speech are vital to democratic discourse. > Allowing dissenters to shield their identities frees them to express > critical, minority views . . . Anonymity is a shield from the tyranny > of the majority. . . . It thus exemplifies the purpose behind the Bill > of Rights, and of the First Amendment in particular: to protect > unpopular individuals from retaliation . . . at the hand of an > intolerant society.'' > :Supreme Court ruling in McIntyre v. Ohio Elections Commission, > 1995. > > Some Wikipedia members (sysops) have implemented a policy to routinely > block users that choose to post using an anonymous proxy > ([[Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Anonymous_and_open_proxies]]) > > These members of Wikipedia have decided to block the ability of people > to the right of anonymity giving reasons related to the need to curb > vandalism of articles. > > These are not sufficient reasons to limit my liberties and the > liberties of others. The WP community is strong enough to withstand > vandalism, without resorting to these measures. > > Case in point: On February 9, [[User:David.Monniaux]] blocked IP > address 168.143.113.125 (anonymizer.com), a respected and paid service > for anonymous browsing. This IP address was used by hundreds of WP > users that wanted to protect their anonymity. > http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=168.143.113.125. > The steps taken by David Monniaux in blocking of that IP address have > been disputed by me. > ([[Talk:French_legislation_against_cult_abuses#Controversy_with_an_anonymous_user]]. > > I kindly request Wikipedia editors to re-open the debate about the > right of the people to contribute to Wikipedia while protecting their > rights to free speech, and to curb sysop powers to utilize blocking > policies. > > Copies of the above have been sent to: > * The Electronic Privacy Information Center http://epic.org/ > * The Electronic Frontier Foundation http://www.eff.org/ > * The American Civil Liberties Union http://aclu.org/ > > --[[User:38.119.107.72|38.119.107.72]] 23:53, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC) > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Tue Feb 15 15:52:31 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:52:31 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> References: <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> <6faf39c9050215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <20050215155231.GO21722@thingy.apana.org.au> Walter van Kalken (walter at vankalken.net) [050216 02:09]: > David Gerard wrote: > >If the ISP in question really is running an open proxy server, then Walter > >needs to bring it to their attention that this is leaving an abuse-machine > >wide open, just as if it were an open email relay being used by spammers. > This is not my responsibility. Wikipedia is an open project and it > should be open for anyone. Unfortunately, open proxies in this manner constitute a public problem on the Internet. Wikipedia blocks them on sight because they are primarily used for abuse. If you HAVE to use that proxy if you want to use that ISP, at this stage it's up to you to get them to run their systems competently. - d. From walter at vankalken.net Tue Feb 15 16:03:03 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 23:03:03 +0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <20050215155231.GO21722@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <42103163.2000706@va nkalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> <6faf39c9 050215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org .au> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> <20050215155231.GO21722@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> > >Unfortunately, open proxies in this manner constitute a public problem on >the Internet. Wikipedia blocks them on sight because they are primarily >used for abuse. > >If you HAVE to use that proxy if you want to use that ISP, at this stage >it's up to you to get them to run their systems competently. > > > If they constituted a problem on all wikipedia's they were blocked on all wiki's it is clear you do not know the situation in other countries. The provider will laugh. If I cancel my contract I have to pay 150 dollars and loose my 20% discount on my telephone lines. I do not have this kind of money. This is food for 3 weeks for me!!! Japanese wikipedia should not block them. I am not a vandal. I wrote over 500 articles on nl. I started nl.wikinews partly. I contributed articles in other languages and you give me this bull?????? Walter van Kalken From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Tue Feb 15 16:18:21 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:18:21 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> References: <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> <6faf39c9050215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> <20050215155231.GO21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> Walter van Kalken (walter at vankalken.net) [050216 03:03]: > >Unfortunately, open proxies in this manner constitute a public problem on > >the Internet. Wikipedia blocks them on sight because they are primarily > >used for abuse. > >If you HAVE to use that proxy if you want to use that ISP, at this stage > >it's up to you to get them to run their systems competently. > If they constituted a problem on all wikipedia's they were blocked on > all wiki's it is clear you do not know the situation in other countries. They're permanently blocked on first abuse on en:, so I'm not surprised that ja: treats them similarly. > The provider will laugh. If I cancel my contract I have to pay 150 > dollars and loose my 20% discount on my telephone lines. I do not have > this kind of money. This is food for 3 weeks for me!!! Unfortunately, this looks more like a bad purchase on your part than a reason to open Wikipedia to abuse. > Japanese > wikipedia should not block them. I am not a vandal. I wrote over 500 > articles on nl. I started nl.wikinews partly. I contributed articles in > other languages and you give me this bull?????? If the proxy was unbanned but then banned again, it strikes me that it was more likely done because of abuse by others than as any sort of personal attack on you, which is what you appear to be treating it as. It still seems truly weird that they would run their proxy server as an open public sewer, but force you to use it. Have you even asked them about this? It's more likely to be an effective move in resolving the problem. - d. From walter at vankalken.net Tue Feb 15 16:25:13 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 23:25:13 +0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421 040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <4210C526.806 0204@vankalken.net> <6faf39c9050215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> <2005021514 3549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> <2005021 5155231.GO21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> <2005 0215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <42122269.3000106@vankalken.net> Ypu really are an ignorant DICKHEAD aren't you?? From walter at vankalken.net Tue Feb 15 16:29:27 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 23:29:27 +0700 Subject: >>: Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> <6faf39c9 050215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org .au> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> <20050215155231.GO21722@thingy.apana. org.au> <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <42122367.9080708@vankalken.net> Thanks for making me see that you really do not give a fuck and do not understand the situation in other countries than your own! It is better for me to quit wikipedia and you are to blame. Waerth From sannse at tiscali.co.uk Tue Feb 15 17:13:25 2005 From: sannse at tiscali.co.uk (sannse) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:13:25 +0000 Subject: >>: Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <42122367.9080708@vankalken.net> References: <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> <6faf39c9 050215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org .au> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> <20050215155231.GO21722@thingy.apana. org.au> <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42122367.9080708@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <42122DB5.6070408@tiscali.co.uk> Walter van Kalken wrote: > [a reply in anger] As I've been saying to Waerth on IRC - David was really trying to give advice here and not to offend. I've been hearing about this situation for a while now, and understand Waerth's deep frustration and anger. But it's new and rather peculiar sounding to most here I think. This situation with his provider is quite different from the one most people will have - but perhaps can be compared with a random user trying to persuade AOL to change its whole system because the user can't access a site they want to see. His provider simply isn't going to listen - however much sense he makes with reasons that proxies are a Bad Thing. And, as Waerth has said, he has no option of changing provider. Waerth has had to put up with regular blocks for a long time through no fault of his own. I think any of us wiki-addicts would be as upset at this. I don't know what the solution is, except for ja. being asked to change their policy here. I don't see why the blocking system cannot be told to ignore this particular set (although I don't know the technicalities of course). Note that these blocks are *not* in response to vandalism - proxies are blocked automatically even if no bad edits have come from that address. Waerth is an excellent contributor, active in foundation issues as well as local issues, it's a real shame to see him distressed by this problem. --sannse -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.8 - Release Date: 14/02/05 From perrin at apotheon.com Tue Feb 15 17:23:41 2005 From: perrin at apotheon.com (Chad Perrin) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:23:41 -0500 Subject: >>: Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <42122367.9080708@vankalken.net> References: <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> <6faf39c9 050215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org .au> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> <20050215155231.GO21722@thingy.apana. org.au> <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42122367.9080708@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <4212301D.7060001@apotheon.com> Walter van Kalken wrote: > and do not > understand the situation in other countries than your own! Perhaps the problem is that you haven't effectively explained why the suggestions you've been given aren't useful. There are two components to understanding: one is being receptive to the information, and the other is presenting it in an understandable manner. Consider whether you've presented it in an understandable manner before blaming others. Another listmember (sannse) has done an admirable job of presenting your concerns, I think, and that example is worth noting. > It is better for me to quit wikipedia and you are to blame. I disagree with that, even though you weren't talking to me. Keep in mind that you can get more done by being nice than by offending the very people you're asking for help. -- Chad From andreengels at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 17:55:00 2005 From: andreengels at gmail.com (Andre Engels) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:55:00 +0100 Subject: >>: Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <4212301D.7060001@apotheon.com> References: <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42122367.9080708@vankalken.net> <4212301D.7060001@apotheon.com> Message-ID: <6faf39c90502150955430916ae@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:23:41 -0500, Chad Perrin wrote: > Perhaps the problem is that you haven't effectively explained why the > suggestions you've been given aren't useful. As if that wasn't clear from the onset. It was to me. Basically, he was being told, "Change the policy of some big firm you are a little customer to, because Wikipedia isn't going to change its policy." > > It is better for me to quit wikipedia and you are to blame. > > I disagree with that, even though you weren't talking to me. Keep in > mind that you can get more done by being nice than by offending the very > people you're asking for help. Maybe being nice is also better than offending the very people you are supposed to be helping. I found David's posts at least as offending as Waerth's reaction to them. Andre Engels From robert_horning at netzero.net Tue Feb 15 19:14:37 2005 From: robert_horning at netzero.net (Robert Scott Horning) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:14:37 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] And blocked again References: <42103163.2000706@va nkalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4 210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> <6faf39c905 0215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org.a u> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <42124A1D.8040606@netzero.net> Walter van Kalken wrote: > David Gerard wrote: > >> Andre Engels (andreengels at gmail.com) [050216 01:33]: >> >> >>> On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 22:35:02 +0700, Walter van Kalken >>> wrote: >>> >>> Does anyone have to say anything about this? Or should I just start to >>> collect Japanese IP-addresses to block them on nl: to get a reaction? >>> >> >> If the ISP in question really is running an open proxy server, then >> Walter >> needs to bring it to their attention that this is leaving an >> abuse-machine >> wide open, just as if it were an open email relay being used by >> spammers. > > This is not my responsibility. Wikipedia is an open project and it > should be open for anyone. > > Waerth/Walter I'd like to add that I am on a dial-up connection where my IP address isn't unique either. It is certainly likely and possible that a Wiki vandal could use the same dial-up connection and use the same IP addresses I use, even though I'm contributing reasonable content to the Wiki. While open proxies are a problem, that isn't always the situation. I'm siding with Walter on this one, and this is a policy that needs to be addressed. -- Robert Scott Horning From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Tue Feb 15 20:49:22 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:49:22 +1100 Subject: >>: Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <6faf39c90502150955430916ae@mail.gmail.com> References: <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42122367.9080708@vankalken.net> <4212301D.7060001@apotheon.com> <6faf39c90502150955430916ae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050215204922.GQ21722@thingy.apana.org.au> Andre Engels (andreengels at gmail.com) [050216 04:55]: > On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:23:41 -0500, Chad Perrin wrote: > > Perhaps the problem is that you haven't effectively explained why the > > suggestions you've been given aren't useful. > As if that wasn't clear from the onset. It was to me. Basically, he > was being told, "Change the policy of some big firm you are a little > customer to, because Wikipedia isn't going to change its policy." I have seen no sign from him that he has even attempted this. > > > It is better for me to quit wikipedia and you are to blame. > > I disagree with that, even though you weren't talking to me. Keep in > > mind that you can get more done by being nice than by offending the very > > people you're asking for help. > Maybe being nice is also better than offending the very people you are > supposed to be helping. I found David's posts at least as offending as > Waerth's reaction to them. I was attempting to explain why it was probably happening, and why open proxies are often open sewers. I'm sorry you find that so offensive. Perhaps you could explain in more detail, off-list if appropriate. - d. From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Tue Feb 15 20:51:46 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:51:46 +1100 Subject: >>: Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <42122DB5.6070408@tiscali.co.uk> References: <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> <6faf39c9050215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> <20050215155231.GO21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42122367.9080708@vankalken.net> <42122DB5.6070408@tiscali.co.uk> Message-ID: <20050215205146.GR21722@thingy.apana.org.au> sannse (sannse at tiscali.co.uk) [050216 04:13]: > I don't know what the solution is, except for ja. being asked to change > their policy here. I don't see why the blocking system cannot be told > to ignore this particular set (although I don't know the technicalities > of course). Note that these blocks are *not* in response to vandalism - > proxies are blocked automatically even if no bad edits have come from > that address. Ah, that bit I didn't know about. I understand en: used to do this but stopped when proxy owners complained. > Waerth is an excellent contributor, active in foundation > issues as well as local issues, it's a real shame to see him distressed > by this problem. He also left an abusive note on my en: talk page. Apparently he considers me personally responsible for the policy on ja:. I'm not inclined to attempt rational explanation with the abusive. - d. From andreengels at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 22:04:05 2005 From: andreengels at gmail.com (Andre Engels) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 23:04:05 +0100 Subject: >>: Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <20050215205146.GR21722@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <6faf39c9050215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> <20050215155231.GO21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42122367.9080708@vankalken.net> <42122DB5.6070408@tiscali.co.uk> <20050215205146.GR21722@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <6faf39c90502151404128dcebb@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:51:46 +1100, David Gerard wrote: > sannse (sannse at tiscali.co.uk) [050216 04:13]: > > Waerth is an excellent contributor, active in foundation > > issues as well as local issues, it's a real shame to see him distressed > > by this problem. > > He also left an abusive note on my en: talk page. Apparently he considers > me personally responsible for the policy on ja:. I'm not inclined to > attempt rational explanation with the abusive. He got blocked. He complained. He got unblocked and got blocked again. He complained again. He got unblocked again. He got blocked again. He complained at this list. No reaction. He complained and got unblocked and got blocked and complained and got unblocked and complained and.... And then you come and you tell him it's all his own fault for not having told some big corporation that they did wrong. I have become abusive over less than that. Andre Engels From aphaia at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 23:48:38 2005 From: aphaia at gmail.com (Aphaia) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:48:38 +0900 Subject: >>: Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <6faf39c90502151404128dcebb@mail.gmail.com> References: <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> <20050215155231.GO21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42122367.9080708@vankalken.net> <42122DB5.6070408@tiscali.co.uk> <20050215205146.GR21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <6faf39c90502151404128dcebb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <35be2a7105021515487c713241@mail.gmail.com> Hi, all, I am sorry Waerth has been frustrated specially his continuously blocking on Japanese Wikipedia. And it is a shame Japanese Wikipedia community hasn't react his complaint rapidly. Some reactions were occured; his message in English was translated into Japanese soon after, I responded him as a current Embassy member of Japanese projects, though I am now quitting my activities on Japanese Wikipedia because of sexual harassment (not within the site but in a forum where many bad people enjoy malicious gosshiping. Even sysops participants are this gossiping, criticize and personal attack which will be archived - but it is a bit digression in this thread). And some Wikipedians came to #wikimedia presumably for discussing this matter with Waerth and others. Those reactions were very clumsy and awkward but I hope it is the beginning of improvement, not their last attempt. But I have to point out Japanese Wikipedia lack administrative issues in general. I assume no one will join the discussion on this matter except some users. We can't change their attitude instantly. So I ask Walter to be patient as much as possible for him. A dormant project like Japanese Wikipedia can't react to things if they are so of urgent and importance. I am sorry bad atmosphere on this thread. Honestly I am still thinking it would be better for Walter to mail his complaint to his ISP, even if it is clear for him they will ignore him. I think still it is better and necessary for us. Then after he can complaint to Ja policy again. He said it would be useless, but I think, if he once tries and be ignored, we would have different impression and reaction. And at last, I am very sorry none of the member of this list and Japanese Wikipedia has replied Waerth neither in the list nor on the Wikipedia. -- Aphaea@*.wikipedia.org email: Aphaia @ gmail (dot) com From rich_holton at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 02:27:37 2005 From: rich_holton at yahoo.com (Rich Holton) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:27:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: >>: Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <35be2a7105021515487c713241@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050216022737.41307.qmail@web60308.mail.yahoo.com> Could we perhaps come up with some temporary work-arounds for Waerth until something more can be done? For instance, would one of the anonymizer services help? If he went through one of those, would he still show up as a open proxy? Are anonymized IP's accepted if there is no vandalism? Also, don't we allow signed-in users access even from a banned IP? Couldn't something like this be implemented? Finally, perhaps a letter from the Wikimedia Foundation to the open proxy provider would carry more weight than one from a single user. Rich Holton (en.wikipedia:User:Rholton) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From anthere9 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 07:26:10 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:26:10 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: And blocked again References: <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> <6faf39c9050215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> <20050215155231.GO21722@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <4212F592.5030506@yahoo.com> David Gerard a ?crit: > Walter van Kalken (walter at vankalken.net) [050216 02:09]: > >>David Gerard wrote: > > >>>If the ISP in question really is running an open proxy server, then Walter >>>needs to bring it to their attention that this is leaving an abuse-machine >>>wide open, just as if it were an open email relay being used by spammers. >> > >>This is not my responsibility. Wikipedia is an open project and it >>should be open for anyone. > > > > Unfortunately, open proxies in this manner constitute a public problem on > the Internet. Wikipedia blocks them on sight because they are primarily > used for abuse. > > If you HAVE to use that proxy if you want to use that ISP, at this stage > it's up to you to get them to run their systems competently. > > > - d. Excuse me ? I do not think such comments are very helpful. We know the power of users of internet lines in front of their isps, it is non existent, we should not expect Waerth to be able to fix this anytime soon. On the other hand, WE, as an international project, insist on being open to everyone editing. If we claim to be open, we need to just be, regardless of the inconveniences. In 4 years, we have shown that security could be ensured by a good community, in a much more efficient and positive way that any barrier. Giving up using community strength to fight vandals and replacing it by physical barriers, is somehow just giving up the concept which made our success. Till now, we have used human strength. And it works. Why should Ja fail to go on using human strength ? I do not think japanese editors should block ips preemptively, to protect themselves, just in case there might be some abuse, and consequently block good editors. It is very very very wrong. From anthere9 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 07:45:12 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:45:12 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: >>: Re: And blocked again References: <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> <20050215155231.GO21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42122367.9080708@vankalken.net> <42122DB5.6070408@tiscali.co.uk> <20050215205146.GR21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <6faf39c90502151404128dcebb@mail.gmail.com> <35be2a7105021515487c713241@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4212FA08.3080508@yahoo.com> In any cases Aphaia, thanks a lot for your trying to help and being a confort for Waerth. It is great you can help communication with japanese editors. Especially after your recent problems over there. Ja is a quite faraway community and it is very hard for any of us to understand how things are going on there and how we could discuss all this with editors. Do you have suggestions ? Ant Aphaia a ?crit: > Hi, all, > > I am sorry Waerth has been frustrated specially his continuously > blocking on Japanese Wikipedia. > > And it is a shame Japanese Wikipedia community hasn't react his > complaint rapidly. Some reactions were occured; his message in English > was translated into Japanese soon after, I responded him as a current > Embassy member of Japanese projects, though I am now quitting my > activities on Japanese Wikipedia because of sexual harassment (not > within the site but in a forum where many bad people enjoy malicious > gosshiping. Even sysops participants are this gossiping, criticize and > personal attack which will be archived - but it is a bit digression in > this thread). And some Wikipedians came to #wikimedia presumably for > discussing this matter with Waerth and others. Those reactions were > very clumsy and awkward but I hope it is the beginning of improvement, > not their last attempt. > > But I have to point out Japanese Wikipedia lack administrative issues > in general. I assume no one will join the discussion on this matter > except some users. We can't change their attitude instantly. So I ask > Walter to be patient as much as possible for him. A dormant project > like Japanese Wikipedia can't react to things if they are so of urgent > and importance. > > I am sorry bad atmosphere on this thread. Honestly I am still thinking > it would be better > for Walter to mail his complaint to his ISP, even if it is clear for > him they will ignore him. > I think still it is better and necessary for us. Then after he can > complaint to Ja policy again. > He said it would be useless, but I think, if he once tries and be > ignored, we would have > different impression and reaction. > > And at last, I am very sorry none of the member of this list and > Japanese Wikipedia has replied Waerth neither in the list nor on the > Wikipedia. > From tietew-wikipedia at tietew.net Wed Feb 16 08:51:44 2005 From: tietew-wikipedia at tietew.net (Tietew) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:51:44 +0900 Subject: [Foundation-l] Blocking on Japan In-Reply-To: <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> References: <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <20050216175141.20DC.TIETEW-WIKIPEDIA@tietew.net> I stopped proxyblockbot temporarily. At least, until proper blocking policy of open proxies is settled, I do not restart it. In past, most of wikimedia projects had blocked open proxies automatically using MediaWiki feature. cf. [[User:Proxy blocker]] I don't know why and when the feature is disabled. Could anyone explain or show a pointer for discussion about it? --[ Tietew ]------------------------------------------------------- Mail: tietew at tietew.net / tietew at raug.net Web : http://www.tietew.net/ (Tietew Windows Lab.) PGP fingerprint: 26CB 71BB B595 09C4 0153 81C4 773C 963A D51B 8CAA From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Wed Feb 16 13:37:30 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 00:37:30 +1100 Subject: >>: Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <20050216022737.41307.qmail@web60308.mail.yahoo.com> References: <35be2a7105021515487c713241@mail.gmail.com> <20050216022737.41307.qmail@web60308.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050216133730.GB25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Rich Holton (rich_holton at yahoo.com) [050216 13:27]: > Also, don't we allow signed-in users access even from a banned IP? > Couldn't something like this be implemented? MediaWiki bug 550. It appears to be a generally supported idea, so probably the best move now is for someone to write the code! - d. From andreengels at gmail.com Wed Feb 16 14:46:56 2005 From: andreengels at gmail.com (Andre Engels) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 15:46:56 +0100 Subject: >>: Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <35be2a7105021515487c713241@mail.gmail.com> References: <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> <20050215155231.GO21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42122367.9080708@vankalken.net> <42122DB5.6070408@tiscali.co.uk> <20050215205146.GR21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <6faf39c90502151404128dcebb@mail.gmail.com> <35be2a7105021515487c713241@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6faf39c9050216064637bc8ff@mail.gmail.com> Aphaia: > But I have to point out Japanese Wikipedia lack administrative issues > in general. I assume no one will join the discussion on this matter > except some users. We can't change their attitude instantly. So I ask > Walter to be patient as much as possible for him. A dormant project > like Japanese Wikipedia can't react to things if they are so of urgent > and importance. I think you made a bad choice of words there. I would not want to call such a succesful project as the Japanese wp (according to the statistics having over 100 major contributors and 4000 edits a day) 'dormant' in any way. Still, I do understand that there is a problem here, and I hope you can solve it. It might be a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy too - if you have only a few administrators, they will be considered important and have a lot of work. If you have more of them, that will be much less the case. Andre Engels From jellings at gmail.com Wed Feb 16 15:02:24 2005 From: jellings at gmail.com (jellings) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:02:24 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Import question Message-ID: <1e37a63d0502160702457e9efc@mail.gmail.com> Hi Sorry in advance if this is the wrong list to post this to. I would like to know about importing csv files into an existing wiki. I have tried to find the documentation for doing so but have not had much luck. If anyone could point me in the right direction I would appreciate it. Thanks in advance. -- john From jwales at wikia.com Wed Feb 16 15:06:32 2005 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:06:32 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] On the blocking of anonymous proxies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050216150632.GA14422@wikia.com> Charles Podles wrote: > An anonymous user posted the following on > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Blocking_policy : > > == Blocking anonymizer's proxies is unconstitutional == > > *'''The right to anonymous free speech is protected by the 1st > amendment of the US constitution.''' "Congress shall make no law..." Unless I missed something, we still aren't Congress. > *'''Anonymity--the ability to conceal one's identity while > communicating--enables the expression of political ideas and the > practice of religious belief without fear of intimidation or public > retaliation.''' This is certainly true enough, and something that we ought to respect as much as we feasibly can. > I kindly request Wikipedia editors to re-open the debate about the > right of the people to contribute to Wikipedia while protecting their > rights to free speech, and to curb sysop powers to utilize blocking > policies. That's a reasonable request. Please let's not get lost in a very confused constitutional claim, though. When I visited the EFF in San Francisco last week, I met with the people working on Tor, their anonymous browsing project. They were (slightly) sympathetic to our concerns and open to ideas. --Jimbo -- "Pianosa is een Italie" - first words of 50,000th article on nl.wikipedia.org From jwales at wikia.com Wed Feb 16 15:09:38 2005 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:09:38 -0800 Subject: >>: Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <20050215205146.GR21722@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> <6faf39c9050215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> <20050215155231.GO21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42122367.9080708@vankalken.net> <42122DB5.6070408@tiscali.co.uk> <20050215205146.GR21722@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <20050216150938.GB14422@wikia.com> David Gerard wrote: > He also left an abusive note on my en: talk page. Apparently he considers > me personally responsible for the policy on ja:. I'm not inclined to > attempt rational explanation with the abusive. I'll vouch for both Waerth and David here. Good people, both of them among my favorites in wikipedia. Waerth was just really frustrated, and David just responded to that. I doubt very much if either of them will be mad for long. :-) From rich_holton at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 15:51:58 2005 From: rich_holton at yahoo.com (Rich Holton) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:51:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Import question In-Reply-To: <1e37a63d0502160702457e9efc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050216155159.67318.qmail@web60307.mail.yahoo.com> --- jellings wrote: > Hi > > Sorry in advance if this is the wrong list to post this to. > > I would like to know about importing csv files into an existing wiki. > > I have tried to find the documentation for doing so but have not had > much luck. > > If anyone could point me in the right direction I would appreciate > it. > > Thanks in advance. > > -- > john John, I've forwarded your question to the wikitech mailing list (). That's probably the best place for this kind of question. However, I'm not sure you've given enough information for a good answer. What are you trying to import? What information is in the CSV fields? -Rich Holton en.wikipedia:User:Rholton __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From brion at pobox.com Wed Feb 16 18:09:37 2005 From: brion at pobox.com (Brion Vibber) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:09:37 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Blocking on Japan In-Reply-To: <20050216175141.20DC.TIETEW-WIKIPEDIA@tietew.net> References: <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <20050216175141.20DC.TIETEW-WIKIPEDIA@tietew.net> Message-ID: <42138C61.20603@pobox.com> Tietew wrote: > In past, most of wikimedia projects had blocked open proxies > automatically using MediaWiki feature. > cf. [[User:Proxy blocker]] > > I don't know why and when the feature is disabled. Could anyone > explain or show a pointer for discussion about it? When we do port scans on thousands of hosts a day, other peoples' internet providers complain to our hosting provider, and we risk being shut down. -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 253 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20050216/27027ab7/attachment.pgp From anthere9 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 18:07:49 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:07:49 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Import question References: <1e37a63d0502160702457e9efc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42138BF5.9020406@yahoo.com> Hi I suggest another list : wikitech-l at wikimedia.org Ant jellings a ?crit: > Hi > > Sorry in advance if this is the wrong list to post this to. > > I would like to know about importing csv files into an existing wiki. > I have tried to find the documentation for doing so but have not had > much luck. > > If anyone could point me in the right direction I would appreciate it. > > Thanks in advance. > From rowan.collins at gmail.com Wed Feb 16 18:51:45 2005 From: rowan.collins at gmail.com (Rowan Collins) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:51:45 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Import question In-Reply-To: <42138BF5.9020406@yahoo.com> References: <1e37a63d0502160702457e9efc@mail.gmail.com> <42138BF5.9020406@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9f02ca4c0502161051c0805da@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:07:49 +0100, Anthere wrote: > I suggest another list : wikitech-l at wikimedia.org Actually, mediawiki-l would be an even better match (intended for all the MediaWiki users out there, as opposed to the core MediaWiki and Wikimedia developers and maintainers); but since Rich has forwarded the message already, wikitech-l's good enough. -- Rowan Collins BSc [IMSoP] From jellings at gmail.com Wed Feb 16 19:37:56 2005 From: jellings at gmail.com (jellings) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:37:56 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Import question In-Reply-To: <20050216155159.67318.qmail@web60307.mail.yahoo.com> References: <1e37a63d0502160702457e9efc@mail.gmail.com> <20050216155159.67318.qmail@web60307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1e37a63d050216113718bcf0c3@mail.gmail.com> I have a text file of dictionary terms - word, definition plus another file of word, synonyms - since I already have it in this format it would be a lot easier to import it. I CAN reformat the file, but to enter it manually would take too long (there are over 20,000 entries in the dictionary file alone, more in the synonyms). I do not have a complete understanding of the database schema so the answer may be obvious to others; any insight would be helpful. I will also subscribe to the other list. Thanks again. On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:51:58 -0800 (PST), Rich Holton wrote: > > --- jellings wrote: > > > Hi > > > > Sorry in advance if this is the wrong list to post this to. > > > > I would like to know about importing csv files into an existing wiki. > > > > I have tried to find the documentation for doing so but have not had > > much luck. > > > > If anyone could point me in the right direction I would appreciate > > it. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > -- > > john > > John, > > I've forwarded your question to the wikitech mailing list > (). That's probably the best place for this > kind of question. > > However, I'm not sure you've given enough information for a good > answer. What are you trying to import? What information is in the CSV > fields? > > -Rich Holton > en.wikipedia:User:Rholton > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > -- john From beesley at gmail.com Wed Feb 16 20:24:30 2005 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:24:30 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimania Call for Papers and Programme planning Message-ID: <8b722b8005021612245aace632@mail.gmail.com> A meeting to discuss the programme for Wikimania, Wikimedia's conference in August, will take place on at 20:00 (UTC) Friday 18 February in #wikimania on IRC. Anyone interested in discussing the programme, and especially working on the call for papers, is encouraged to come to the meeting. Please see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania:Call_for_papers and http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania:Programme for details. Angela. From walter at vankalken.net Wed Feb 16 21:47:50 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 04:47:50 +0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Apology to David Gerard and explanation In-Reply-To: <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> <6faf39c9 050215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org .au> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> <20050215155231.GO21722@thingy.apana. org.au> <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <4213BF86.1060505@vankalken.net> For now I want to apologize to David Gerard. I am under a lot of stress. And since I felt that I had given the reason for me not to contact my provider nor to change it. Plus external reasons nothing to do with wikipedia I just blew up. I had no right to address him with the words I did. I am sorry for making an ass out of myself. I still stay with the words that in Thailand thinks work totally different from the west (I would say most of this part of Asia). Basicaly if you life over here and want to survive like I am doing forget about everything you learned in the west and start over. There is no such thing as consumerrights here and this really is the best deal. I pay 1.350 baht a month for a 2.5 mbps/256 kbps unlimited connection. A friend of mine pays 2.099 baht for a 256/128 kbps 100 hrs a month connection. I also get a 20% duscount on both my mobile and housephonebills as they are the same company, Thailands second biggest phone company (formerly Telecom Asia now True). The only bad thing about the deal is I cannot break contract in the first 2 years (and they do not rise the price) because then I have to pay 6000 baht. For comparison 6.000 baht is almost what I spend in a month on food. For me that is a lot of money, as I am earning Thai wages, not Western expatriate wages. With kind regards, Walter van Kalken From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Wed Feb 16 21:52:26 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 08:52:26 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Apology to David Gerard and explanation In-Reply-To: <4213BF86.1060505@vankalken.net> References: <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> <6faf39c9050215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> <20050215155231.GO21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <4213BF86.1060505@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <20050216215226.GI25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Walter van Kalken (walter at vankalken.net) [050217 08:48]: > For now I want to apologize to David Gerard. I am under a lot of stress. > And since I felt that I had given the reason for me not to contact my > provider nor to change it. Plus external reasons nothing to do with > wikipedia I just blew up. I had no right to address him with the words I > did. I am sorry for making an ass out of myself. No prob. Sorry for being so terse. - d. From aphaia at gmail.com Thu Feb 17 00:32:24 2005 From: aphaia at gmail.com (Aphaia) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:32:24 +0900 Subject: [Foundation-l] Blocking on Japan In-Reply-To: <20050216175141.20DC.TIETEW-WIKIPEDIA@tietew.net> References: <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <20050216175141.20DC.TIETEW-WIKIPEDIA@tietew.net> Message-ID: <35be2a7105021616323627107e@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:51:44 +0900, Tietew wrote: > I stopped proxyblockbot temporarily. > At least, until proper blocking policy of open proxies is > settled, I do not restart it. I am glad on your decision. I appliciate you on that. I know no discussion arose on this issues and guess it was hard for you to make a decision solely, specially it is not your personal idea but based on the community approval in silence and perhaps expectation. Again, thank you. ???????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????? I hope this issue will gather more interest on JA WP and the discussion will go further. ???????????????????????? ???????????????? -- Aphaea@*.wikipedia.org email: Aphaia @ gmail (dot) com From aphaia at gmail.com Thu Feb 17 00:43:42 2005 From: aphaia at gmail.com (Aphaia) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:43:42 +0900 Subject: Fwd: For improvement of JA situation (Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again) In-Reply-To: <35be2a71050216162545ca58d0@mail.gmail.com> References: <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42122367.9080708@vankalken.net> <42122DB5.6070408@tiscali.co.uk> <20050215205146.GR21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <6faf39c90502151404128dcebb@mail.gmail.com> <35be2a7105021515487c713241@mail.gmail.com> <6faf39c9050216064637bc8ff@mail.gmail.com> <35be2a71050216162545ca58d0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <35be2a71050216164375d286f8@mail.gmail.com> Sorry, Andre, you'll see it twice. I forgot to include the address of the list ... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Aphaia Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:25:47 +0900 Subject: For improvement of JA situation (Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again) To: Andre Engels On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 15:46:56 +0100, Andre Engels wrote: > Aphaia: > > But I have to point out Japanese Wikipedia lack administrative issues > > in general. ...[omitted by the author herself] A dormant project > > like Japanese Wikipedia can't react to things if they are so of urgent > > and importance. > > I think you made a bad choice of words there. I would not want to call > such a succesful project as the Japanese wp (according to the > statistics having over 100 major contributors and 4000 edits a day) > 'dormant' in any way. Thank you for your comment, you let me notice my another wrong wording: I would have liked to say in the first sentence of your quotation, "Ja Wikipedia lacks 'an interest in' administrative issues..." I admit it is very active project, but I doubt its activities have consciousness enough appropriate to keep such a huge project and community. I fear if it is an unsustainable growth. The balance of increase of content and maintenance there might be kept nowadays. So I don't think I have to change the word dormant: a sleeping person could move very actively in a dream but we don't think him awake. As for size, according to a daily and monthly survey of a Wikipedian (User:Mintlef, http://wikipedia.g.hatena.ne.jp/mintleaf/), JA WP has 100 major registered contributors and probably a same number of or larger number of anonymous contributors; It is another sign of lack of intentionally avoiding involvement and engagement in my opinion. And this enormous anonymity make JA issues harder, probably. So here the first question is what we can do motivate those anonyms to register themselves to the project. /##To make a better and comfortable project, perhaps - without personal attacks but feeling of love and approval... but how? I attempted some of expressions of approval and some people found them nice, but right now they are alike of petals in the ocean.) > Still, I do understand that there is a problem > here, and I hope you can solve it. It might be a kind of > self-fulfilling prophecy too I appreciate your understanding. But not only understanding, if possible, would I like you to give us a help and assistance? I expect it wouldn't be helpful not only JA but also other projects potentially. Before diving into the topic, I would like you to remark a fact I am not there a sysadmin. I thought JA WP needed more helper and requested sysopship twice. My requests were rejected with 65-72% approvals [JA WP holds 75% criteria for promotion]. In my view some of JA users are afraid I am a sort of authoritarians, with an iron rod, and/or suspect I don't shere with them the view what Wikipedia should be. Perhaps at the latter point they might be correct, because I can't assume what kind of view they have (some of you remember the ascii art I showed). As for the former point, I would like not to comment here; it is more suitable to talk in other places, not here on foundation-l. But please remind my opinion belongs only to me as an individual and perhaps it is not a typical view of JA Wikipedians. In my view the core issue of JA WP issues are evasive attitude of users both registered and anonymous. It causes lack of interest on administration and maintenance, avoidance of involvement and engagement, suppression of good interaction on responsibility. And Japanese project is in fact younger than other projects and less experienced, or precisely, experiences what no other project has known. Its increasing rate can be compared only to a few other projects and a half of edits have been done anonymously. With language barriers the experiences on the other projects and wisdom are hardly available there on JA WP. I dare say, JA WP will be someday unsustainable, unless we began right now to make appropriate actions. I assume, one of reasons some of JA people tend to use external forums instead of Village Pump or talk page: fond of anonymity and avoidance of responsibility under a stably using registered name. One day I opposed a sysop say she would post her question not to VP but to a certain forum there I was harassed, but she replied the latter would give her quicker responses. And I admit the fact might be so, but such de facto approval could cause a potential fork and make VP and the community deserted. In my opinion we have not rely on anonymous talk to make our decision, though those people who are for anonymity might have a different opinion. If such additional forum should be discussed to improve the situation, we could later be back to this point.) In my view now regretfully JA WP lacks appropriate governance in proportion to its size. It is one of most active project among us. But perhaps one of most assistance needed ones, I presume. I take this lack of interest and engagement very serious. It is not only a potential hazard on JA WP, but could be on other where people are evasive in general. I heard on some small Wikipedias good editors avoid being nominated as sysop candidate, since they thought they couldn't - here we notice not only lack of involvement but lack of self-esteem. In my opinion the JA WP issues are potentially shared by such other projects and we should seek their resolutions. So , as Andre pointed out, the task of administrators are there visibly harder than on other projects I have ever involved since 2004 in my view. And there among the administrators again the lack of involvement arises. Recently an user requested for adminship but he said clearly he has no intent to use his privileges positively. I objected his promotion because in my view though he is a good editor but not an active contributors and showed clearly not to be an active administrators. But an admin, who is active contributors but seldom use his privileges in my view, supported him with words "it is not a problem, because we have already admins who don't use their privileges). In my view on JA WP such a strange idea has spread for a while - it has become not merely functions to serve as a janitor but a title for eminent users. Personally I don't like this idea. In my view administrator are alike as janitors or gardeners fighting with vandals and trolls and keeping the project as clean as possible. It is not a sort of honors, though it is natural for us to feel honored to be supported and trusted by a number of trusted people. So here too, I think, JA needs to be improved to have more admins; if users have a wrong image, it could be a hazard for them to be appointed. And last, the issues of malice and gossips come. I asked once some good editors to let me recommend them to admins but was denied. They feared to be featured, particularly on the forum I mentioned on the above. After my own harassment, I can't say they were too evasive. It is very a horrible experience, indeed. And here would you let me express my applications for those who support me: they made me succeed in gather my strength in spirit again. But I have been fortunate. I have friends out of JA WP and could pour my worries in front of them. But most of Ja users are active only on Ja and would have no support out of their "community". People could rumored it was a pity but wouldn't cast the consolation to the person embarrassed directly. Or, it was my own case, they came to the embarrassed person and said "I am very sorry. I hope you are back. But I can't support you in public. I don't like to be offended as like as you. But you are a strong person, I know. You can bear it. and I like you." It is not a hostility indeed but I don't think I would like to be a part of such a group. So now it seems to me very reasonable many past active users left that project within three months. So we have here to have another improvement, I guess, but at the same time, I feel it is not my own task: the JA community wouldn't be able to notice what is wrong in this situation, and deny to change the situation, in the worst case. If I recall correctly, Erik Moeller suggested the Foundation or the Board would intervene, I think it might be a possible reaction from us. At least now the interested thread use the name of Wikipedia (it is already a trademark), though the Foundation legally has no right to close it, but can demand it not to use the name of Wikipedia or not to behave there is any sort of relation between that external community and our project. And for the community the Foundation has a right to intervene: for example, not to refer to any other external communication ways as if it is under the control of the Foundation nor the project, not accepted as an official part of the project, nor recommended as an active part of the projects: As for the forum I mentioned, in case they can't improve themselves, it would be helpful at least for the community the Board demands to the community not to refer nor recommend it in the project documents, like the guidebook for newbies (now they did). But on this point I think I am too involved and will appreciate opinions of the third parties who aren't regulars there and give a look on the forum concerned. Both other JA users' feedbacks and ones of other projects' participants will be appliciated. -- Aphaea@*.wikipedia.org email: Aphaia @ gmail (dot) com -- Aphaea@*.wikipedia.org email: Aphaia @ gmail (dot) com From gerard.meijssen at gmail.com Thu Feb 17 02:51:48 2005 From: gerard.meijssen at gmail.com (Gerard Meijssen) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 03:51:48 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Proposal for the application for a grant that has to be applied for before the 20th] Message-ID: <421406C4.201@gmail.com> Hoi, I have posted http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IFAP it is an outline for a proposal for a $45.000,- grant. We need to apply before the 20th of this month. Please, do understand that if we apply for this grant, we have to spend money the way we describe. It does not help if you think we should not spend the money. We either do or we do not apply and, that way we do not benefit and neither do the people who benefit most who are incidentally not the people who get paid. This proposal aims to achieve three things: * cooperation with the Open Office org by creating a dictionary integrated into wiktionary for languages they work on. This is a win win situation *a dictionary and translations dictionary that helps translators and students of languages; wiktionary is a many to many dictionary *better functionality for wiktionary that will prevent a lot of double work and removes the need for running bots to share our work. I hope we agree that this is a feasible project and that we can move forward with this proposal. Thanks. GerardM From rich_holton at yahoo.com Thu Feb 17 03:24:06 2005 From: rich_holton at yahoo.com (Rich Holton) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:24:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Import question In-Reply-To: <9f02ca4c0502161051c0805da@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050217032406.28418.qmail@web60303.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rowan Collins wrote: > On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:07:49 +0100, Anthere > wrote: > > I suggest another list : wikitech-l at wikimedia.org > > Actually, mediawiki-l would be an even better match (intended for all > the MediaWiki users out there, as opposed to the core MediaWiki and > Wikimedia developers and maintainers); but since Rich has forwarded > the message already, wikitech-l's good enough. > Thanks, Rowan. I actually was going to direct the question to mediawiki-l, but I noticed that the description there is "MediaWiki announcements and site admin list", which doesn't sound like the right place. But I also know that the actual subject matter is more in line with a general technical support list. Perhaps it would be a good idea to clarify that list's purpose. -Rich __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From erik_moeller at gmx.de Thu Feb 17 07:14:51 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 08:14:51 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikinews Design Contest Open for Submissions Message-ID: <4214446B.9010408@gmx.de> Help us create a unique visual identity for the Wikinews project! http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews_design_contest The Wikinews design contest, which will run until April 17, 2005, consists of two components: * www.wikinews.org multilingual portal * site stylesheets You can also offer prizes for the best designs! If you can't contribute a design, please offer a prize, to increase the incentive to contribute. While the contest is running, please also feel free to edit the existing portal at: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Www.wikinews.org_portal All best, and good luck to all participants, Erik M?ller From erik_moeller at gmx.de Thu Feb 17 08:51:40 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:51:40 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Proposal: Wikimedia Collaboration of the Week Message-ID: <42145B1C.6070802@gmx.de> I have created http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_COTW as a proposal for weekly cross-project, cross-language collaborations. This could include things like help documents, promotion materials, or work on underexposed projects. I'm sure people will come up with lots of cool ideas for this. Besides getting things done, I hope this will strengthen the awareness of Wikimedia as an organization and of Meta as a site. The idea is that thet Wikimedia Collaboration of the Week (WM-COTW) will be featured on the Community Portal or a similar page of many (all?) projects, in many (all?) languages. These should really be big, worthwhile projects. Of course often they will not be completable in a week, but it will drive people to Meta to work on them. Please comment on this proposal or edit it. I would like to take it live soon -- implementing it will be up to the individual wikis. If someone wants to create a nice logo for this, that would be very neat! All best, Erik From andreengels at gmail.com Thu Feb 17 12:58:21 2005 From: andreengels at gmail.com (Andre Engels) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:58:21 +0100 Subject: Fwd: For improvement of JA situation (Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again) In-Reply-To: <6faf39c9050216170675bb7c2d@mail.gmail.com> References: <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42122367.9080708@vankalken.net> <42122DB5.6070408@tiscali.co.uk> <20050215205146.GR21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <6faf39c90502151404128dcebb@mail.gmail.com> <35be2a7105021515487c713241@mail.gmail.com> <6faf39c9050216064637bc8ff@mail.gmail.com> <35be2a71050216162545ca58d0@mail.gmail.com> <6faf39c9050216170675bb7c2d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6faf39c905021704585a50e113@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:25:47 +0900, Aphaia wrote: > > Still, I do understand that there is a problem > > here, and I hope you can solve it. It might be a kind of > > self-fulfilling prophecy too > > I appreciate your understanding. But not only understanding, if > possible, would I > like you to give us a help and assistance? I expect it wouldn't be > helpful not only JA > but also other projects potentially. I am not sure what kind of assistance I can give, given that I do not speak Japanese (well, at least not more than 50 words of it). I did make a check, and found that indeed the Japanese Wikipedia has a remarkably low number of admins. It has about the same number as the Dutch one (ja: 31, nl: 34), even though the Dutch one is about half the size of the Japanese one, and compared to other languages is relatively low. The Polish and Swedish Wikipedias have considerably more admins. I think that to compare to the other languages, the Japanese number could easily be doubled. > Before diving into the topic, I would like you to remark a fact I am > not there a sysadmin. > I thought JA WP needed more helper and requested sysopship twice. My > requests were > rejected with 65-72% approvals [JA WP holds 75% criteria for > promotion]. In my view > some of JA users are afraid I am a sort of authoritarians, with an > iron rod, and/or suspect > I don't shere with them the view what Wikipedia should be. Interesting... On nl: we have had all requests approved upto now, usually with no objections. Andre Engels From notafishz at gmail.com Thu Feb 17 14:52:14 2005 From: notafishz at gmail.com (notafish) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:52:14 +0100 Subject: For improvement of JA situation (Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again) In-Reply-To: <453b6e50502170642258e2a4d@mail.gmail.com> References: <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <42122DB5.6070408@tiscali.co.uk> <20050215205146.GR21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <6faf39c90502151404128dcebb@mail.gmail.com> <35be2a7105021515487c713241@mail.gmail.com> <6faf39c9050216064637bc8ff@mail.gmail.com> <35be2a71050216162545ca58d0@mail.gmail.com> <6faf39c9050216170675bb7c2d@mail.gmail.com> <6faf39c905021704585a50e113@mail.gmail.com> <453b6e50502170642258e2a4d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <453b6e505021706524d69aba9@mail.gmail.com> > I did make a check, and found that indeed the Japanese Wikipedia has > a remarkably low number of admins. It has about the same number as the > Dutch one (ja: 31, nl: 34), even though the Dutch one is about half > the size of the Japanese one, and compared to other languages is > relatively low. The Polish and Swedish Wikipedias have considerably > more admins. I think that to compare to the other languages, the > Japanese number could easily be doubled. > > > Before diving into the topic, I would like you to remark a fact I am > > not there a sysadmin. > > I thought JA WP needed more helper and requested sysopship twice. My > > requests were > > rejected with 65-72% approvals [JA WP holds 75% criteria for > > promotion]. In my view > > some of JA users are afraid I am a sort of authoritarians, with an > > iron rod, and/or suspect > > I don't shere with them the view what Wikipedia should be. Kind of the same problem arose on fr, Admins were considered cream of the cream. I have put in place a demythification process here : *http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Administrateur/Tableau_de_bord_de_l%27administrateur *http://fr.wikipedia.org/Wikip?dia:Administrateur/Processus_de_suppression *http://fr.wikipedia.org/Wikip?dia:Administrateur/Processus_de_blocage *http://fr.wikipedia.org/Wikip?dia:Administrateur/Processus_de_protection (other links can be found at the bottom of the first page) which goal was to de-sacralize the admins job. This has definitely worked on fr to make the admin position clearer and a lot of people who dreaded becoming an admin for fear of being cast into an authoritarian category have expressed interest in becoming admins. (4 in the last two weeks), which helps. I don't know whether this can solve any problems, but it could be a starting point and I am willing to help putting it together for other languages if anyone is interested, providing I am supplied with the appropriate shotscreens. Cheers, Delphine From yann at forget-me.net Thu Feb 17 22:26:01 2005 From: yann at forget-me.net (Yann Forget) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:26:01 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation and the World Summit on Information Society Message-ID: <200502172326.01936.yann@forget-me.net> Hi, I take part to the preliminary session of the World Summut on Information Society (WSIS) [1] in Geneva, from February 17th to 25th. There are already a lot of people supporting our ideas (sharing knowledge and free content) who take part in the WSIS. These people do lobbying for these ideas to members states delegates for adopting a resolution in the WSIS. So these ideas get also promoted among people taking part in the process. I propose that Wikimedia Foundation gets involved with the WSIS: * The foundation should start the process to get official recognition from WSIS. * The foundation should look for financial support to send delegate(s) to Tunis. * Does the foundation have a proposition or a recommendation to the WSIS ? Comments and propositions: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/World_Summit_on_Information_Society Regards, Yann [1] http://www.itu.int/wsis/preparatory2/pc2/index.html From walter at vankalken.net Thu Feb 17 23:54:09 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 06:54:09 +0700 Subject: For improvement of JA situation (Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again) In-Reply-To: <453b6e505021706524d69aba9@mail.gmail.com> References: <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <42122DB5.6070408@tiscali.co.uk > <20050215205146.GR21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <6faf39c90502151404128dcebb@ mail.gmail.com> <35be2a7105021515487c713241@mail.gmail.com> <6faf39c9050216 064637bc8ff@mail.gmail.com> <35be2a71050216162545ca58d0@mail.gmail.com> <6f af39c9050216170675bb7c2d@mail.gmail.com> <6faf39c905021704585a50e113@mail.g mail.com> <453b6e50502170642258e2a4d@mail.gmail.com> <453b6e505021706524d69 aba9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42152EA1.5010607@vankalken.net> >Kind of the same problem arose on fr, Admins were considered cream of >the cream. I have put in place a demythification process here : >*http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Administrateur/Tableau_de_bord_de_l%27administrateur >*http://fr.wikipedia.org/Wikip?dia:Administrateur/Processus_de_suppression >*http://fr.wikipedia.org/Wikip?dia:Administrateur/Processus_de_blocage >*http://fr.wikipedia.org/Wikip?dia:Administrateur/Processus_de_protection >(other links can be found at the bottom of the first page) >which goal was to de-sacralize the admins job. This has definitely >worked on fr to make the admin position clearer and a lot of people >who dreaded becoming an admin for fear of being cast into an >authoritarian category have expressed interest in becoming admins. (4 >in the last two weeks), which helps. > >I don't know whether this can solve any problems, but it could be a >starting point and I am willing to help putting it together for other >languages if anyone is interested, providing I am supplied with the >appropriate shotscreens. > > > I kind of did the same on nl: We had only 14 sysops or so. I then went on a drive to get more and voila we have 34 now. We also had the problem that people though being a sysop is som kinf of authoritive thing but I was able with the help of others to debunk that. We got a couple of more applications now for adminship. So our total number will rise even more! I have offered Britty to go around all Japanese users and ask them to become admin. Maybe we should co-ordinate an effort by first writing a tex in Japanese oon demystifying the adminship and explain to people why jawp needs more and then go to everybody's user talkpage we think is usefull and ask them personally to apply for adminship??? Same like I did on nl:. Walter van Kalken Walter van Kalken From robin.shannon at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 02:47:37 2005 From: robin.shannon at gmail.com (Robin Shannon) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:47:37 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Proposal for the application for a grant that has to be applied for before the 20th] In-Reply-To: <421406C4.201@gmail.com> References: <421406C4.201@gmail.com> Message-ID: <623d7338050217184718651db4@mail.gmail.com> Fucking brilliant idea, but im not quite sure about the ideas to spend the money. Exactly what is needed on the software front that isnt currently provided by wikimedia? paz y amor, [[User:The bellman]] On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 03:51:48 +0100, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > Hoi, > > I have posted http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IFAP it is an outline for a > proposal for a $45.000,- grant. We need to apply before the 20th of this > month. Please, do understand that if we apply for this grant, we have to > spend money the way we describe. It does not help if you think we should > not spend the money. We either do or we do not apply and, that way we do > not benefit and neither do the people who benefit most who are > incidentally not the people who get paid. > > This proposal aims to achieve three things: > * cooperation with the Open Office org by creating a dictionary > integrated into wiktionary for languages they work on. This is a win win > situation > *a dictionary and translations dictionary that helps translators and > students of languages; wiktionary is a many to many dictionary > *better functionality for wiktionary that will prevent a lot of double > work and removes the need for running bots to share our work. > > I hope we agree that this is a feasible project and that we can move > forward with this proposal. > > Thanks. > GerardM > > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > -- hit me: robin.shannon.id.au jab me: saudade at jabber.zim.net.au This work is licensed under the Creative Commons Recombo Plus License. To view a copy of this license, visit http://creativecommons.org/licenses/sampling+/1.0/ From erik_moeller at gmx.de Fri Feb 18 06:33:11 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 07:33:11 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Intent to launch pt., pl., ro. Wikinews; further procedure Message-ID: <42158C27.4080805@gmx.de> As per the procedure on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews/Start_a_new_edition I'd like to launch three new editions later today or tomorrow: Portuguese, Polish, and Romanian. For Portuguese, I count Carlosar as a valid vote, because he has made 3000+ edits on the English Wikinews, and he is a native speaker. For future editions, I'd also like to suggest changing the language procedure in the following way: The "activity on existing Wikimedia projects" requirement can be dropped if a few support pages (FAQ, Mission Statement, etc.) are created on Meta for the project to be launched. These can be translations or original creations. Such an effort indicates a genuine interest in working on a Wikinews edition in a language. It also reduces the dependency of new projects on existing ones -- we already know that many key people working on Wikinews have not done substantial work on Wikipedia or other Wikimedia projects. There would still be a requirement of at least 5 signatures, so it's not just one person playing an overarching role. If this works out, perhaps we can substitute one procedure for another; I prefer the translation procedure, because it also makes sure that certain pages are in place before the wiki is set up (a problem on some new editions which were essentially blank for several days). I'd like to credit the Memory Alpha wiki for this procedure, which has successfully used it for setting up new languages. Regards, Erik From anthere9 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 06:58:17 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 07:58:17 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Intent to launch pt., pl., ro. Wikinews; further procedure References: <42158C27.4080805@gmx.de> Message-ID: <42159209.2070007@yahoo.com> No, please keep it to the procedure we agreed upon just a couple of days ago. When I suggested that we added this requirement of "activity", there were two reasons * activity shows interest, so avoid missed launches such as the french wikinews one * past activity of at least 2 editors on a wikipedia (for example) indicates that at least 2 editors are aware of our basic principles and in particular NPOV requirement. Again, the is a security measure. If 5 people, not even one oldby on one of our project, decide to launch a wikinews with no experience at all, there is rather high risk that some of our principles are not respected; and since it is not in a language we necessarily manage, it might go on for a long time. You mentionned yourself that wikinews was a tricky project, with rather serious liability issues. I agree with this. And this is just as much a reason to avoid launching by people who just happened to visit a couple of days sooner and found the concept great. We need at least 2 experienced people. Anthere Erik Moeller a ?crit: > As per the procedure on > > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews/Start_a_new_edition > > I'd like to launch three new editions later today or tomorrow: > Portuguese, Polish, and Romanian. For Portuguese, I count Carlosar as a > valid vote, because he has made 3000+ edits on the English Wikinews, and > he is a native speaker. > > For future editions, I'd also like to suggest changing the language > procedure in the following way: > > The "activity on existing Wikimedia projects" requirement can be > dropped if a few support pages (FAQ, Mission Statement, etc.) are > created on Meta for the project to be launched. These can be > translations or original creations. > > Such an effort indicates a genuine interest in working on a Wikinews > edition in a language. It also reduces the dependency of new projects on > existing ones -- we already know that many key people working on > Wikinews have not done substantial work on Wikipedia or other Wikimedia > projects. There would still be a requirement of at least 5 signatures, > so it's not just one person playing an overarching role. > > If this works out, perhaps we can substitute one procedure for another; > I prefer the translation procedure, because it also makes sure that > certain pages are in place before the wiki is set up (a problem on some > new editions which were essentially blank for several days). > > I'd like to credit the Memory Alpha wiki for this procedure, which has > successfully used it for setting up new languages. > > Regards, > > Erik From erik_moeller at gmx.de Fri Feb 18 07:34:18 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 08:34:18 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Intent to launch pt., pl., ro. Wikinews; further procedure In-Reply-To: <42159209.2070007@yahoo.com> References: <42158C27.4080805@gmx.de> <42159209.2070007@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42159A7A.5050603@gmx.de> Anthere- > > * activity shows interest, so avoid missed launches such as the french > wikinews one Actually, it doesn't. French Wikinews would have passed the edit count requirements (haven't checked user duration); as you yourself said, Greudin is a very active user on fr.wikipedia and has pledged support for the French Wikinews, yet he has only made a handful of edits there. Translating/creating policies seems to be a much better test of actual interest in doing work. Once you do that, that shows a commitment to the project. > > * past activity of at least 2 editors on a wikipedia (for example) > indicates that at least 2 editors are aware of our basic principles > and in particular NPOV requirement. What better test could there be for people understanding a policy like NPOV than requiring them to translate it? > Again, the is a security measure. If 5 people, not even one oldby on > one of our project, decide to launch a wikinews with no experience at > all, there is rather high risk that some of our principles are not > respected; I don't see it that way. Just because someone has been on Wikipedia for months doesn't mean that they respect policies at all. Quantity is not quality, and measuring quality is almost impossible while keeping the process scalable and fair. One could even argue that malicious trolls or otherwise harmful users who know how to manipulate policies in their interest are more likely to come from our existing user base. In fact, Wikinews will especially attract people who are fed up with Wikipedia and want to work on another wiki. > and since it is not in a language we necessarily manage, it might go > on for a long time. This is more likely if key policies like NPOV are *not* translated. If we can agree on which parts of our policies are not negotiable, we can make sure that they are in place. One of these policies can even include instructions on what to do if your wiki doesn't follow the Wikimedia spirit (contact stewards etc.). Future projects don't necessarily match our current userbase. To tie the process for creating new language editions directly to that userbase seems needlessly restrictive. Building a small community on Meta and writing key pages before launching the project is also simply good planning -- exactly the kind of thing that could have helped to prevent the current fr.wikinews.org situation, much more so than algorithmic requirements whose actual predictive value is very low, as that experience has shown. Regards, Erik From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Fri Feb 18 08:55:11 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:55:11 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Intent to launch pt., pl., ro. Wikinews; further procedure In-Reply-To: <42158C27.4080805@gmx.de> References: <42158C27.4080805@gmx.de> Message-ID: <4215AD6F.8050802@laposte.net> > For future editions, I'd also like to suggest changing the language > procedure in the following way: > > The "activity on existing Wikimedia projects" requirement can be > dropped if a few support pages (FAQ, Mission Statement, etc.) are > created on Meta for the project to be launched. These can be > translations or original creations. As Ant, i support the activity requirement. The reason is that it's better imo to "know" people, how they behave for instance, who intend to launch a wikinews. If you let a total "stranger" start a new language edition, you open doors to many abuses - translating NPOV rules & such is NOT synonym with agreeing to them. And how can you check the translation is correct unless you speak the language? :) > Regards, > > Erik Nicolas From erik_moeller at gmx.de Fri Feb 18 10:08:32 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:08:32 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Intent to launch pt., pl., ro. Wikinews; further procedure In-Reply-To: <4215AD6F.8050802@laposte.net> References: <42158C27.4080805@gmx.de> <4215AD6F.8050802@laposte.net> Message-ID: <4215BEA0.5050400@gmx.de> Nicolas Weeger- > And how can you check the > translation is correct unless you speak the language? :) How do I know the "regular" is not actually a troll without speaking the language? How do I know that the only reason he wants to start a Wikinews isn't that he hates Wikipedia after having spent several months there? How do I know his intentions are good? You could require one of the people to be a sysop, but that seems like an onerous requirement. An algorithmic contribution check is *not* a quality check. Let's be realistic here. What kind of person would intentionally manipulate policies and get away with it under the auspices of other users: a random person who's never been involved in our projects, or someone who is intimately familiar with them? Furthermore, remember that there would still be a requirement of *multiple users* participating. How likely is it that a malicious person would get away with deliberately falsely translating something like NPOV when working with 4 others? And let's not forget about http://usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?AssumeGoodFaith - the very idea of a wiki is to be open and welcoming to newcomers, rather than requiring people to be members of an existing "clique". If the risk of malicious people ruining the project was so big, then Wikipedia itself could never have been started. Yes, Wikinews is different -- but a Wikinews edition which is likely to attract attention from the outside is also likely to attract attention from the inside, allowing us to deal with malicious users. Yes, Wikinews is different -- and that's why we should be welcoming to *people* who are different and not yet part of our community. Regards, Erik From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Fri Feb 18 10:06:55 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:06:55 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Intent to launch pt., pl., ro. Wikinews; further procedure In-Reply-To: <4215BEA0.5050400@gmx.de> References: <42158C27.4080805@gmx.de> <4215AD6F.8050802@laposte.net> <4215BEA0.5050400@gmx.de> Message-ID: <4215BE3F.4020401@laposte.net> > And let's not forget about > http://usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?AssumeGoodFaith - the very idea of a > wiki is to be open and welcoming to newcomers, rather than requiring > people to be members of an existing "clique". If the risk of malicious I'm not saying to be closed to newcomers, quite the opposite. But i'm saying to not let newcomers start new projects like that - slightly different :) > Regards, > > Erik Regards too (my english isn't as good as to let me use other polite words, sorry :p) Nicolas From anthere9 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 10:47:46 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 02:47:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews requirement Message-ID: <20050218104746.12631.qmail@web41826.mail.yahoo.com> So, to summarize Until a little while ago, the only requirement was that 5 people show interest. It did not matter that these 5 were trolls, or were regulars, or even voted 3 months ago. I suggested a change in policy, requiring that amongst these 5 people, at least 2 are regular editors of at least one of our projects. You agreed with this suggestion. One week later, you would like to change it again, and change the 2 regular editors requirement to a at least 2 editors are creating/translating policies on meta. When I object that a project started by 5 totally unknown editors is likely to have problems respecting our basic principles, you answer that the requirement of being a long term editor is not a proof that the editor is well versed in our policy. Though I agree with this statement, I consider it a fallacy. There is much much more chance that an editor having been for a while on a project is aware of our policies, and the fact he might NOT be is NO argument to support people with no experience is better than people with experience. We do have three major points to consider * understanding that the project is a collaboration, that a sysop is not the boss, and that being the sysop of a project absolutely does not mean that the sysop should restrict access to pages such as the main page. * understanding our neutrality policy, which is not always easy for a newbie, and results sometimes in main page being covered with advertisement * understanding our copyright policy; though less visible, it is for wikinews the more tricky one, and very likely the one most likely to get us in trouble. When someone will start a new wikinews, it is VERY likely a wikipedia will already exist in that language, so there is no need to translate ANYTHING. THe editor can just go to the relevant projet language, and COPY the NPOV rules, copy the COPYRIGHT rules. Just copy and past text does not mean this text is understood, nor that it is applied. If you mean by COPYING rules, just going to the english version and copying the rules of the english version, I will object that no project should exist which has no community able to make their own rules. If you do want an example of what I mean, I invite you to visit http://wo.wikipedia.org This is a new project. A group of editors from an african NGO want to work on it. For it to start, one of those guys asked me to be sysop on it (needed for decent start). In his country, french is widely spoken, so he just copied french wikipedia rules. Then, as soon as he was sysop, he put some advertisement for his NGO on the main page, then when the main page was restored to a more neutral situation, he put back the advertisement (in good faith I am sure) and protected the main page. In 24 hours, this editor, who want to nurture a group of at least 5 people, * broke the rule of neutrality (though he had copied them from fr) * broke the rule of collaborative writing (restricting access to main page to him only) * broke the rule of admin just being no more powerful than another editor (in reverting and protecting the page to his preference) For all I know, the text he put on the main page could be under copyright as well. In short, what you are asking is basically that we remove the requirement we just agreed upon, which was frankly not very demanding. Why did you agree on it to immediately remove your agreement ? Anthere- > > * activity shows interest, so avoid missed launches such as the french > wikinews one Actually, it doesn't. French Wikinews would have passed the edit count requirements (haven't checked user duration); as you yourself said, Greudin is a very active user on fr.wikipedia and has pledged support for the French Wikinews, yet he has only made a handful of edits there. Translating/creating policies seems to be a much better test of actual interest in doing work. Once you do that, that shows a commitment to the project. > > * past activity of at least 2 editors on a wikipedia (for example) > indicates that at least 2 editors are aware of our basic principles > and in particular NPOV requirement. What better test could there be for people understanding a policy like NPOV than requiring them to translate it? > Again, the is a security measure. If 5 people, not even one oldby on > one of our project, decide to launch a wikinews with no experience at > all, there is rather high risk that some of our principles are not > respected; I don't see it that way. Just because someone has been on Wikipedia for months doesn't mean that they respect policies at all. Quantity is not quality, and measuring quality is almost impossible while keeping the process scalable and fair. One could even argue that malicious trolls or otherwise harmful users who know how to manipulate policies in their interest are more likely to come from our existing user base. In fact, Wikinews will especially attract people who are fed up with Wikipedia and want to work on another wiki. > and since it is not in a language we necessarily manage, it might go > on for a long time. This is more likely if key policies like NPOV are *not* translated. If we can agree on which parts of our policies are not negotiable, we can make sure that they are in place. One of these policies can even include instructions on what to do if your wiki doesn't follow the Wikimedia spirit (contact stewards etc.). Future projects don't necessarily match our current userbase. To tie the process for creating new language editions directly to that userbase seems needlessly restrictive. Building a small community on Meta and writing key pages before launching the project is also simply good planning -- exactly the kind of thing that could have helped to prevent the current fr.wikinews.org situation, much more so than algorithmic requirements whose actual predictive value is very low, as that experience has shown. Regards, Erik --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From anthere9 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 10:57:20 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 02:57:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews requirement Message-ID: <20050218105720.67737.qmail@web41808.mail.yahoo.com> I regret that you use fallacies so much Erik. Trying to remove the requirement that 2 over 5 people are regulars so as to start a project, by arguing that these 2 might be trolls or want to destroy wikipedia, strike me as deeply dishonnest. I was deeply deeply unhappy of the creation of the french wikinews, because this creation was not done according to the support of the french community. The result is a broken project, which I deeply regret. I find disquieting that you tried to cool down people like notafish and I by agreeing to add a new requirement for the creation, only to try to cancel it two weeks later. You can not at the same time FORCE all communities, without asking their opinion, of not using images uploads, due to the fear of copyright violations (which is what you did a week ago) , and at the same time object to using very simple indicators to assert whether editors are aware of our policies (in particular the copyright ones). This is just illogical. Or rather... the only logic is to open more and more wikinews as quickly as possible. You just can't expect I support this Erik. =Nicolas Weeger-> And how can you check the> translation is correct unless you speak the language? :)How do I know the "regular" is not actually a troll without speaking the language? How do I know that the only reason he wants to start a Wikinews isn't that he hates Wikipedia after having spent several months there? How do I know his intentions are good? You could require one of the people to be a sysop, but that seems like an onerous requirement. An algorithmic contribution check is *not* a quality check.Let's be realistic here. What kind of person would intentionally manipulate policies and get away with it under the auspices of other users: a random person who's never been involved in our projects, or someone who is intimately familiar with them? Furthermore, remember that there would still be a requirement of *multiple users* participating. How likely is it that a malicious person would get away with deliberately falsely translating something like NPOV when working with 4 others?And let's not forget about http://usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?AssumeGoodFaith - the very idea of a wiki is to be open and welcoming to newcomers, rather than requiring people to be members of an existing "clique". If the risk of malicious people ruining the project was so big, then Wikipedia itself could never have been started. Yes, Wikinews is different -- but a Wikinews edition which is likely to attract attention from the outside is also likely to attract attention from the inside, allowing us to deal with malicious users. Yes, Wikinews is different -- and that's why we should be welcoming to *people* who are different and not yet part of our community.Regards,Erik --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Fri Feb 18 11:08:49 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:08:49 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews requirement In-Reply-To: <20050218105720.67737.qmail@web41808.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050218105720.67737.qmail@web41808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4215CCC1.4070909@laposte.net> Anthere a ?crit : > I regret that you use fallacies so much Erik. > Trying to remove the requirement that 2 over 5 people are regulars so as to start a project, > by arguing that these 2 might be trolls or want to destroy wikipedia, strike me as deeply dishonnest. > > I was deeply deeply unhappy of the creation of the french wikinews, > because this creation was not done according to the support of the french community. > The result is a broken project, which I deeply regret. > > I find disquieting that you tried to cool down people like notafish and I by agreeing to add a new requirement > for the creation, only to try to cancel it two weeks later. I agree with Anthere on a few points. You agreed on rules, you should imo apply'em on a few projects creation before asking for a change - so you can argue why it's better to change, based on experience and not just because you feel it would be better. I too regret how fr: was created - for reasons others have explained. I don't have anything against creating new projects, but i think we must make sure it won't be such a mess (i am not blaming anyone, just stating facts). And changing rules all the time makes for a real mess in my opinion. I understand your motivations are to create more wikinews. Fine, but in due time, no need to rush, wait for community to ask loudly for a wikinews. Nicolas Ryo From ginu.george at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 11:26:52 2005 From: ginu.george at gmail.com (Ginu George) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 15:26:52 +0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews requirement In-Reply-To: <4215CCC1.4070909@laposte.net> References: <20050218105720.67737.qmail@web41808.mail.yahoo.com> <4215CCC1.4070909@laposte.net> Message-ID: As news considered let it be 24X7 always. So need more than 5 people in the team i think And if you all prefer mark one specific domains, as they have expertise, like politics, business, technology etc etc.. So more than a number the team needs good journalists rather than just information providers.. -- Regards Ginu George Journalist and Media Researcher Dubai, United Arab Emirates On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:08:49 +0100, Nicolas Weeger wrote: > Anthere a ?crit : > > I regret that you use fallacies so much Erik. > > Trying to remove the requirement that 2 over 5 people are regulars so as to start a project, > > by arguing that these 2 might be trolls or want to destroy wikipedia, strike me as deeply dishonnest. > > > > I was deeply deeply unhappy of the creation of the french wikinews, > > because this creation was not done according to the support of the french community. > > The result is a broken project, which I deeply regret. > > > > I find disquieting that you tried to cool down people like notafish and I by agreeing to add a new requirement > > for the creation, only to try to cancel it two weeks later. > > I agree with Anthere on a few points. You agreed on rules, you should > imo apply'em on a few projects creation before asking for a change - so > you can argue why it's better to change, based on experience and not > just because you feel it would be better. > > I too regret how fr: was created - for reasons others have explained. I > don't have anything against creating new projects, but i think we must > make sure it won't be such a mess (i am not blaming anyone, just stating > facts). And changing rules all the time makes for a real mess in my opinion. > > I understand your motivations are to create more wikinews. Fine, but in > due time, no need to rush, wait for community to ask loudly for a wikinews. > > Nicolas Ryo > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > From aphaia at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 11:39:36 2005 From: aphaia at gmail.com (Aphaia) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 20:39:36 +0900 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Intent to launch pt., pl., ro. Wikinews; further procedure In-Reply-To: <42159A7A.5050603@gmx.de> References: <42158C27.4080805@gmx.de> <42159209.2070007@yahoo.com> <42159A7A.5050603@gmx.de> Message-ID: <35be2a7105021803394dde9857@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 08:34:18 +0100, Erik Moeller wrote: > Translating/creating policies seems to be a much better test of actual > interest in doing work. Once you do that, that shows a commitment to the > project. Agreed. A project need to have some principal policies at its start - or would be better: after seeing the current situation of Japanese Wiktionary, I strongly recommend everyone to expect creating a new project. Without principal policy some prudent editors hesitate to submit articles. Vandals don't care such things ... and specially continuous labor by active sysops sometimes a disastrous situation could arise - like Ja wiktionary. Though I can't summarize the whole history of Ja wiktionary since its creating, one major reason of its administrative weakness is its fail to establish ground principals in its early days in my opinion: an active user insisted to licence articles not under GFDL but other conditions. I don't remember the details, but it was enough to hesitate contributors to submit if I recall correctly,. I admit it was a very extreme case, but I convince if we can provide a newly created project with basic policies, even if they are rough and need improvement, it is much better than lack of them. > Future projects don't necessarily match our current userbase. To tie the > process for creating new language editions directly to that userbase > seems needlessly restrictive. Building a small community on Meta and > writing key pages before launching the project is also simply good > planning Preparing somewhere, on meta or existing Wikinews (at subpages of user page) seems good to me. If preferable, Wikinews proposed can have platform to prepare and draft their policies on meta (like TR). It would make them to give a look on other projects' policy and give a good occasion to consider their own in comparison with others: a diversity of projects give us a good chance to elaborate our policies. For suspicion a project would be created by newbies or trolls who understand not our policy, such platform on meta could give the transparency of their policy to interesting observers. -- Aphaea@*.wikipedia.org email: Aphaia @ gmail (dot) com From anthere9 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 13:11:45 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 05:11:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikinews Message-ID: <20050218131145.50156.qmail@web41823.mail.yahoo.com> >As news considered let it be 24X7 always. So need more than 5 people >in the team i think >And if you all prefer mark one specific domains, as they have >expertise, like politics, business, technology etc etc.. >So more than a number the team needs good journalists rather than just >information providers.. >-- >Regards >Ginu George >Journalist and Media Researcher >Dubai, United Arab Emirates I strongly agree with you Ginu. There is a huge difference with the encyclopedia. With wikipedia, we do not need all expertises at the same time, one area can be greatly improved for a couple of months, while another goes unnoticed for months. Wikinews on the other hand, requires much more that people makes team, if only to try to cover a couple of areas. Even if there are few editors and cannot cover all news, a team of 4-5 in scientific covering could make it very successful in a small areas. This is doubly interesting in Wikinews as news are interesting only for a couple of days, not weeks, months or years as in the encyclopedia. As long as a wikinews will be unable to cover all news topics, I think it should focus on providing good news in *one* area and get famous thanks to it. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! ? What will yours do? From ginu.george at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 13:33:04 2005 From: ginu.george at gmail.com (Ginu George) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 17:33:04 +0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikinews In-Reply-To: <20050218131145.50156.qmail@web41823.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050218131145.50156.qmail@web41823.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Anthere, I am doing a news wire for the last 3 years. I know the real pain behind that. We need a full desk to do news. Not like encyclopedia. If one person who is not taking the responsibility will destroy the aunthenticity of wikinews. If the people is ready then i am ready to contribute well with my desk. Let us think from the top ...... george On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 05:11:45 -0800 (PST), Anthere wrote: > >As news considered let it be 24X7 always. So need more than 5 people > >in the team i think > > >And if you all prefer mark one specific domains, as they have > >expertise, like politics, business, technology etc etc.. > > >So more than a number the team needs good journalists rather than just > >information providers.. > > >-- > >Regards > >Ginu George > >Journalist and Media Researcher > >Dubai, United Arab Emirates > > I strongly agree with you Ginu. > > There is a huge difference with the encyclopedia. > With wikipedia, we do not need all expertises at the same time, one area can be greatly improved for a couple of months, while another goes unnoticed for months. > > Wikinews on the other hand, requires much more that people makes team, if only to try to cover a couple of areas. > Even if there are few editors and cannot cover all news, a team of 4-5 in scientific covering could make it very successful in a small areas. > > This is doubly interesting in Wikinews as news are interesting only for a couple of days, not weeks, months or years as in the encyclopedia. > > As long as a wikinews will be unable to cover all news topics, I think it should focus on providing good news in *one* area and get famous thanks to it. > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! ? What will yours do? > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > -- Regards Ginu George Journalist and Media Researcher Dubai, United Arab Emirates From anthere9 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 13:42:25 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 05:42:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikinews Message-ID: <20050218134226.69137.qmail@web41827.mail.yahoo.com> >Anthere, >I am doing a news wire for the last 3 years. I am glad to know we have journalists among us, they will help avoid the worse directions. >I know the real pain >behind that. We need a full desk to do news. Not like encyclopedia. Agreed I can perfectly well see the absolutely amazing force which could be behind a wikinews. With a full desk, a united team, the impact of a wikinews will be huge. But this could happen right now in english, possibly german. Possibly another language. But it just do not make sense that we have a wikinews site with only 2 editors. Even though they really try their best, they just can't manage. And as Britty mentionned, it is important that each wikinews has a couple of people interested in building the committee, not taking care of news, just drafting policies, strengthening the project. Unfortunately, not every one likes doing this. In the end, building a wikinews on 5 people... just makes little sense to me. >If one person who is not taking the responsibility will destroy the >aunthenticity of wikinews. If the people is ready then i am ready to >contribute well with my desk. I would be glad that you do so in arab. But this community is probably not ready at all. >Let us think from the top ...... What do you mean here George ? >george Ant --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From ginu.george at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 13:48:31 2005 From: ginu.george at gmail.com (Ginu George) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 17:48:31 +0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikinews In-Reply-To: <20050218134226.69137.qmail@web41827.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050218134226.69137.qmail@web41827.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: hi, am not well versed in arabic, really am Indian, so dont expect any arabic version from me. First of all we have to make the english edition running well, meantime think about the languiage versions. So if people will translate the english to german and vice versa thats more good and regional news will become global. As a global village make all the news for the global community. So i prefer english first and i will think other languages... My Specialisation is Media, Health and Business.....And Global Cinema (Parallel Cinema) Regards George On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 05:42:25 -0800 (PST), Anthere wrote: > >Anthere, > > >I am doing a news wire for the last 3 years. > > I am glad to know we have journalists among us, they will help avoid the worse directions. > > >I know the real pain > >behind that. We need a full desk to do news. Not like encyclopedia. > > Agreed > I can perfectly well see the absolutely amazing force which could be behind a wikinews. > With a full desk, a united team, the impact of a wikinews will be huge. > > But this could happen right now in english, possibly german. Possibly another language. > But it just do not make sense that we have a wikinews site with only 2 editors. > Even though they really try their best, they just can't manage. > And as Britty mentionned, it is important that each wikinews has a couple of people interested in building the committee, not taking care of news, just drafting policies, strengthening the project. Unfortunately, not every one likes doing this. > In the end, building a wikinews on 5 people... just makes little sense to me. > > >If one person who is not taking the responsibility will destroy the > >aunthenticity of wikinews. If the people is ready then i am ready to > >contribute well with my desk. > > I would be glad that you do so in arab. > But this community is probably not ready at all. > > >Let us think from the top ...... > > What do you mean here George ? > > >george > > Ant > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > -- Regards Ginu George Journalist and Media Researcher Dubai, United Arab Emirates From anthere9 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 15:04:49 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 07:04:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews Message-ID: <20050218150449.38658.qmail@web41803.mail.yahoo.com> >>>Let us think from the top ...... >> What do you mean here George ? >hi, am not well versed in arabic, really am Indian, so dont expect any >arabic version from me. Oh well... >First of all we have to make the english edition running well, >meantime think about the languiage versions. So if people will >translate the english to german and vice versa thats more good and >regional news will become global. >As a global village make all the news for the global community. So i >prefer english first and i will think other languages... I agree we should focus on having german and english run well before focusing on other languages. I disagree with considering these two languages the "top" while others are the "bottom". >My Specialisation is Media, Health and Business.....And Global Cinema >(Parallel Cinema) quite eclectic... :-) >Regards >George --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From ginu.george at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 15:46:13 2005 From: ginu.george at gmail.com (Ginu George) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:46:13 +0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews In-Reply-To: <20050218150449.38658.qmail@web41803.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050218150449.38658.qmail@web41803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The news we can integrate via a single platform. So any one from any location can submit a news. But that wil go only through the moderators. So once two people submit one news automatically the second will go down. Here we can create users, trusted journalists, moderators and admins. So What we going to do Answering the rest.... First of all the editors have to think about that. Thats what i mean by top I dint mean english and german is top There is nothing elctric in my statement!! On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 07:04:49 -0800 (PST), Anthere wrote: > >>>Let us think from the top ...... > > >> What do you mean here George ? > > >hi, am not well versed in arabic, really am Indian, so dont expect any > >arabic version from me. > > Oh well... > > >First of all we have to make the english edition running well, > >meantime think about the languiage versions. So if people will > >translate the english to german and vice versa thats more good and > >regional news will become global. > > >As a global village make all the news for the global community. So i > >prefer english first and i will think other languages... > > I agree we should focus on having german and english run well before focusing on other languages. > I disagree with considering these two languages the "top" while others are the "bottom". > > >My Specialisation is Media, Health and Business.....And Global Cinema > >(Parallel Cinema) > > quite eclectic... :-) > > >Regards > > >George > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > -- Regards Ginu George Journalist and Media Researcher Dubai, United Arab Emirates From erik_moeller at gmx.de Fri Feb 18 16:25:23 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 17:25:23 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews requirement In-Reply-To: <20050218105720.67737.qmail@web41808.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050218105720.67737.qmail@web41808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <421616F3.3000203@gmx.de> Anthere, I won't discuss this further with you as long as any email discussion with you turns into a tirade of accusations and insults. Regards, Erik From anthere9 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 16:24:17 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 08:24:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews Message-ID: <20050218162418.51715.qmail@web41803.mail.yahoo.com> >The news we can integrate via a single platform. So any one from any >location can submit a news. But that wil go only through the >moderators. So once two people submit one news automatically the >second will go down. >Here we can create users, trusted journalists, moderators and admins. >So What we going to do >Answering the rest.... >First of all the editors have to think about that. Thats what i mean by top I think it is high time I go back to the english wikinews to look at what is going on... I was not aware there was (or planning to be ?) different status such as admin and moderators. Hmmm, oh well. >I dint mean english and german is top >There is nothing elctric in my statement!! Electric ? :-)))) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From andreengels at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 18:41:01 2005 From: andreengels at gmail.com (Andre Engels) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:41:01 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews requirement In-Reply-To: <421616F3.3000203@gmx.de> References: <20050218105720.67737.qmail@web41808.mail.yahoo.com> <421616F3.3000203@gmx.de> Message-ID: <6faf39c9050218104137bb9580@mail.gmail.com> Erik, If you consider this a tirade of accusations and insults, you should go and think about whether perhaps it is your own fault. Apparently rules have been decided, which both Anthere and you agreed on. Then singlehandedly you change those rules, and apply a whole new version. Now you decide that Anthere is not worth discussing those rules with. As far as I know, the only one in our group that deserves the name 'benevolent dictator' is Jimbo. Not you. Andre Engels > I won't discuss this further with you as long as any email discussion > with you turns into a tirade of accusations and insults. From erik_moeller at gmx.de Fri Feb 18 18:56:55 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:56:55 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews requirement In-Reply-To: <6faf39c9050218104137bb9580@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050218105720.67737.qmail@web41808.mail.yahoo.com> <421616F3.3000203@gmx.de> <6faf39c9050218104137bb9580@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42163A77.2070603@gmx.de> Anthere- >Erik, > >If you consider this a tirade of accusations and insults, you should >go and think about whether perhaps it is your own fault. Apparently >rules have been decided, which both Anthere and you agreed on. Then >singlehandedly you change those rules, and apply a whole new version. >Now you decide that Anthere is not worth discussing those rules with. > You shouldn't believe everything Anthere says. No rules have been changed, nor applied. Regards, Erik From anthere9 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 19:04:33 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 20:04:33 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: wikinews requirement References: <20050218105720.67737.qmail@web41808.mail.yahoo.com> <421616F3.3000203@gmx.de> Message-ID: <42163C41.6030107@yahoo.com> Ah ? Well Please accept my apologies if you felt insulted. Ant Erik Moeller a ?crit: > Anthere, > > I won't discuss this further with you as long as any email discussion > with you turns into a tirade of accusations and insults. > > Regards, > > Erik From maveric149 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 19:10:30 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:10:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 0 Fund Drive Report Message-ID: <20050218191030.90310.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> Our first quarter 2005 fund drive officially started at midnight UTC Friday morning. On Day 0 (Thursday eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not available in UTC) we made $1,023.19 (USD) through PayPal (other sources unkown). As of right now we have generated a total of $7,043.80 in the fund drive (PayPal only; other sources unkown), so Day 1 looks like it will be big. Some choice comments from Day 0: See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_0 "Amazing. I've spent many many hours here over the last couple months learning about our world. Please keep it up!" by Sean Vaughan "I wanted to be the first" by Daniel Wool (hi Danny!) "I have learned so much from this site. I used to be frustrated because I couldn't read about things on sites like Encarta, but now I can and it's all here." by Anonymous "I absolutely love Wikipedia, I have never donated to anything before but I gladly do to this!" by Anonymous "WikiPeida rocks!" by David Ouziel And my personal favorite: "May the fleas of a thousand camels infest the underpants of your enemies" by Christopher J Hutten Czaps Daniel Mayer, Wikimedia CFO PS - there still is much translating work to do at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF/Fundraising_pages __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From maveric149 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 19:18:13 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:18:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 0 Fund Drive Report Message-ID: <20050218191814.31540.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> Our first quarter 2005 fund drive officially started at midnight UTC Friday morning. On Day 0 (Thursday eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not available in UTC) we made $1,023.19 (USD) through PayPal (other sources unknown). As of right now we have generated a total of $7,043.80 in the fund drive (PayPal only; other sources unknown), so Day 1 looks like it will be big. Some choice comments from Day 0: See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_0 "Amazing. I've spent many many hours here over the last couple months learning about our world. Please keep it up!" by Sean Vaughan "I wanted to be the first" by Daniel Wool (hi Danny!) "I have learned so much from this site. I used to be frustrated because I couldn't read about things on sites like Encarta, but now I can and it's all here." by Anonymous "I absolutely love Wikipedia, I have never donated to anything before but I gladly do to this!" by Anonymous "WikiPeida rocks!" by David Ouziel And my personal favorite: "May the fleas of a thousand camels infest the underpants of your enemies" by Christopher J Hutten Czaps Daniel Mayer, Wikimedia CFO PS - there still is much translating work to do at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF/Fundraising_pages __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From anthere9 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 19:23:44 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 20:23:44 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: wikinews requirement References: <20050218105720.67737.qmail@web41808.mail.yahoo.com> <421616F3.3000203@gmx.de> <6faf39c9050218104137bb9580@mail.gmail.com> <42163A77.2070603@gmx.de> Message-ID: <421640C0.1080605@yahoo.com> Erik Moeller a ?crit: > Anthere- > >> Erik, >> >> If you consider this a tirade of accusations and insults, you should >> go and think about whether perhaps it is your own fault. Apparently >> rules have been decided, which both Anthere and you agreed on. Then >> singlehandedly you change those rules, and apply a whole new version. >> Now you decide that Anthere is not worth discussing those rules with. >> > You shouldn't believe everything Anthere says. No rules have been > changed, nor applied. > > Regards, > > Erik Sorry here, but... I made a proposal to have at least a certain number of these 5 required editors be "regulars". No one opposed. You did not oppose it. We also discussed it privately on irc, and it seems to me we agreed upon this solution. Later, you wrote http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2005-February/002120.html For me, this counted like an agreement from you. Not ??? You did not agree with this ??? What have we been discussing upon during days then ??? Ant From saintonge at telus.net Fri Feb 18 21:34:05 2005 From: saintonge at telus.net (Ray Saintonge) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:34:05 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews requirement In-Reply-To: <20050218104746.12631.qmail@web41826.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050218104746.12631.qmail@web41826.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42165F4D.8020200@telus.net> Anthere wrote: >* understanding that the project is a collaboration, that a sysop is not the boss, and that being the sysop of a project absolutely does not mean that the sysop should restrict access to pages such as the main page. > Unfortunately main pages need to be protected more quickly than others. When a vandal alters the main page to redirect to his home page or to a porno page the effect can be to put the whole project off line until somebody can fix it. For a big project many knowledgeable people are available to react quickly, but it is also a greater magnet for vandals. A small project may have these problems less often, but it may stay there longer before being fixed. Solving this problem should be done in a way that minimizes damage to collaborativeness. >When someone will start a new wikinews, it is VERY likely a wikipedia will already exist in that language, so there is no need to translate ANYTHING. THe editor can just go to the relevant projet language, and COPY the NPOV rules, copy the COPYRIGHT rules. Just copy and past text does not mean this text is understood, nor that it is applied. > >If you mean by COPYING rules, just going to the english version and copying the rules of the english version, I will object that no project should exist which has no community able to make their own rules. > Exactly! It makes me wonder about those people who feel that they cannot function unless they have previously adopted a complete system of rules. Except for broad questions of fundamental principles communities must preceed rules. Rules must then reflect the community and codify its practices. They must be sensitive to a changing zeitgeist. Sometimes we need to reflect on how centuries of paternalistic thought have affected the way we are today. In contrast to the diligent respect for rules, effecting real change requires counterintuitive action. It requires abandoning the cosy comfort zone that rules provide. Maybe there should be a law that whenever a politician gives a speech to his country's parliament he would need to do so with his clothes off. >If you do want an example of what I mean, I invite you to visit http://wo.wikipedia.org > >This is a new project. >A group of editors from an african NGO want to work on it. >For it to start, one of those guys asked me to be sysop on it (needed for decent start). > >In his country, french is widely spoken, so he just copied french wikipedia rules. >Then, as soon as he was sysop, he put some advertisement for his NGO on the main page, then when the main page was restored to a more neutral situation, he put back the advertisement (in good faith I am sure) and protected the main page. > Perfectly predictable when the rules are nothing but words. - not to mention the enforced ambiguity that came from decolonisation. >Translating/creating policies seems to be a much better test of actual >interest in doing work. Once you do that, that shows a commitment to the >project. > People need to do both. Mere translation is a mechanical act. There is a need to discuss how those policies guide our activity. Policies beyond fundamental principles can and should vary between projects >>Again, the is a security measure. If 5 people, not even one oldby on >>one of our project, decide to launch a wikinews with no experience at >>all, there is rather high risk that some of our principles are not >>respected; >> >> >I don't see it that way. Just because someone has been on Wikipedia for >months doesn't mean that they respect policies at all. Quantity is not >quality, and measuring quality is almost impossible while keeping the >process scalable and fair. One could even argue that malicious trolls or >otherwise harmful users who know how to manipulate policies in their >interest are more likely to come from our existing user base. > We live in a security-obsessed society, where everyone seems to have forgotten that we are all mortal. >In fact, >Wikinews will especially attract people who are fed up with Wikipedia >and want to work on another wiki. > A common phenomenon that affects all projects. Most of us like to contribute without being trapped on a merry-go-round of bickering. >This is more likely if key policies like NPOV are *not* translated. If >we can agree on which parts of our policies are not negotiable, we can >make sure that they are in place. One of these policies can even include >instructions on what to do if your wiki doesn't follow the Wikimedia >spirit (contact stewards etc.) > Maybe that would have prevented the total shutdown that is taking place on the japanese wiktionary. Yes the key policies do need to be translated, but only to the extent that they provide an operating framework. We all have a vision of what NPOV means, but its details are the subject of endless inconclusive debates. Too many people end up trying to call balls and strikes when they are standing in the outfield. They know the rulebook thoroughly, but they were holding the book upsidedown when they learned it. Ec From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 23:11:59 2005 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:11:59 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Proposal for the application for a grant that has to be applied for before the 20th] In-Reply-To: <421406C4.201@gmail.com> References: <421406C4.201@gmail.com> Message-ID: <742dfd0605021815115cb0d760@mail.gmail.com> I think this is a fabulous project, and am certain it will get funding from some source as it becomes better fleshed out. However, *please* make sure that you are addressing the needs of the organization you are applying to. As stated below, the proposal does not address the immediate IFAP priorities. If you could explain how you think the proposal could be changed to meet those priorities, I would be glad to help. As it is, I'm not sure how to make the existing proposal into a feasible application. +sj+ On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 03:51:48 +0100, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > Hoi, > > I have posted http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IFAP it is an outline for a > proposal for a $45.000,- grant. We need to apply before the 20th of this > month. Please, do understand that if we apply for this grant, we have to > spend money the way we describe. It does not help if you think we should > not spend the money. We either do or we do not apply and, that way we do > not benefit and neither do the people who benefit most who are > incidentally not the people who get paid. > > This proposal aims to achieve three things: > * cooperation with the Open Office org by creating a dictionary > integrated into wiktionary for languages they work on. This is a win win > situation > *a dictionary and translations dictionary that helps translators and > students of languages; wiktionary is a many to many dictionary > *better functionality for wiktionary that will prevent a lot of double > work and removes the need for running bots to share our work. > > I hope we agree that this is a feasible project and that we can move > forward with this proposal. > > Thanks. > GerardM From erik_moeller at gmx.de Fri Feb 18 23:16:12 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 00:16:12 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikinews China vote closed Message-ID: <4216773C.6030201@gmx.de> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews/China This vote is now closed. It was meant to help decide whether we need to hold a poll before launching the Chinese Wikinews, or whether it can be treated like all other Wikinews editions, considering the censorship risk. The vote is inconclusive. The two sides are almost evenly split, with strong opinions expressed by people on both sides. If you count all votes, the "hold a vote among Chinese language speakers" option wins by one vote. If you count only votes of users with user pages on Meta, as the rules require, the "Treat it like al other Wikinews editions" option wins by one vote. Given the sharp split of opinion, I think the decision should be deferred to the Board at this point. So, to the Board: Please put this issue on your agenda at your nearest convenience and inform us about the outcome. Until then, I will not do anything about the Chinese Wikinews. Peace, Erik From aphaia at gmail.com Sat Feb 19 00:49:26 2005 From: aphaia at gmail.com (Aphaia) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:49:26 +0900 Subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews requirement In-Reply-To: <42165F4D.8020200@telus.net> References: <20050218104746.12631.qmail@web41826.mail.yahoo.com> <42165F4D.8020200@telus.net> Message-ID: <35be2a7105021816494d609d65@mail.gmail.com> Summary: my arguments are -basic rules should be established *before* the project should start -and it means a enough number of people who are experienced at the aim of project and/or our policies and ideals, like NPOV, but with some modifications and adoptations, if necessary -it is strongly recommanded the newly created community has a good preperation, specially if they had a waiting time before their reqeust would be approved. On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:34:05 -0800, Ray Saintonge wrote: > >If you mean by COPYING rules, just going to the english version and copying the rules of the english version, I will object that no project should exist which has no community able to make their own rules. > > > Exactly! It makes me wonder about those people who feel that they > cannot function unless they have previously adopted a complete system of > rules. Except for broad questions of fundamental principles communities > must preceed rules. Agreed. The question is what are those "fundamental principles". We see each Wikimedia project has different opinion except NPOV and GFDL. Some communities count only board and the Founder's former instructions, other include other community based idea like "Be bold". So for saving a mess on some projects - wolof wp and ja wiktionary are unfortunate cases among ours - and for helping newly being created projects, it would be helpful to show what are our fundamental principals. It is more than those principals are written in letters. It is true here "letters kill you, but the spilit makes you alive". Avoiding wo wp case, the community could understand those principals and apply to their actual cases. In my opinion this assertion has two corollaries: 1) those principals could be modified applying the actual experiences on the community and 2) for this purpose, that is, its good understanding there should be people who know the aim and mechanism of the project to some extent. So it seems to me a reasonable requirement that a new project should be began by a certain number of experienced people who have been already active on some project. In most cases 50 edits are enough show their behaviour and their and understanding to the policies in my opinion, and it is different from shutting out newbies: it takes two days to make 50 major edits, if they spent whole a weekend for activity on wiki. (well I however admit it might be a view of heavy wikiholics prausibly ...) On the other hand, I agree with Ray on that most of rules would however be developed on the community through their activities, not preceeding its creation. But to manage difficult cases experience on other projects is helpful: the people who commit a project and/or the entire Wikimedia project, if possible, with sufficient understanding of policies and its mechanism. So here we expect experienced people at the beginning point of a certain project. Or > Perfectly predictable when the rules are nothing but words. such a situation would come up again, I assume. > >Translating/creating policies seems to be a much better test of actual > >interest in doing work. Once you do that, that shows a commitment to the > >project. > > > People need to do both. Mere translation is a mechanical act. There is > a need to discuss how those policies guide our activity. Policies > beyond fundamental principles can and should vary between projects So the question is what are "fundamental principles". I think we must make it clear and provide a set of those principles in a form as neutral as possible (not depending on a certain project but also refertable to some concrete cases for further understanding). For example, NPOV guidelein in NPOV (not depending on a certain language project matters) ... as a startpont for each participants who want to create a new project. > Maybe that would have prevented the total shutdown that is taking place > on the japanese wiktionary. We can point out some factors of JA wikt shutdown, though I myself was not wholely clear the situation; I had been very inactive there during some months. And after I was back, I was surprised there were no changes or progress on policies' drafting before I had left it. There were almost no discussion on Beer Parlour (VP of wiktionary). It makes me convince strongly a new project need both people who concern policies and administrative issues (though it is not so fun than submission of new entires) and eager submitter of contents. -- Aphaea@*.wikipedia.org email: Aphaia @ gmail (dot) com From notafishz at gmail.com Sat Feb 19 02:14:16 2005 From: notafishz at gmail.com (notafish) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 03:14:16 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Intent to launch pt., pl., ro. Wikinews; further procedure In-Reply-To: <35be2a7105021803394dde9857@mail.gmail.com> References: <42158C27.4080805@gmx.de> <42159209.2070007@yahoo.com> <42159A7A.5050603@gmx.de> <35be2a7105021803394dde9857@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <453b6e5050218181447ee2101@mail.gmail.com> > > Translating/creating policies seems to be a much better test of actual > > interest in doing work. Once you do that, that shows a commitment to the > > project. I am kind of torn between several things here. I do agree with Erik, new people coming to a new project can be pretty good, it gives different insight, and wikinews is definitely not like wikipedia. Also I agree that some people, not active on Wikip?dia, might be interested in Wikinews and strengthen the community. I also agree that translating the project rules or creating original ones is very important (I have started translating policies in fr, and it is quite a challenge). I also agree with Anthere though, a basic knowledge of how "life on a wiki" works is important, very important. We need people who are likely to become admins very quickly, if only to change system messages... And Ryo makes a good point, what if the policies drawn on meta are just rubbish and we can't check because we don't speak the language? To me the existing policy addresses only one of the issues, 3 users that know the wikimedia projects. I would actually *add* Erik's proposal to the launching of a new Wikinews, for I believe people on the fr wikinews have been quickly overcome by the enormous task of putting together policies. Basically, the French Wikinews was started with people who had a rough idea of what it is all about, but don't have the first clue of how to address it. Asking people to actually look at the other wikinews and try to understand the project is a very good way to measure interest. Of course, if one of the interested users has been participating in any other language wikinews, (s)he should count for both requirements (see Carlosar for exemple) So I would say 5 signatures, among which 2 people knowing how to work a wikimedia project, 2 people willing to work in advance in setting up rules. Those can be the same of course. This said, I think for the launching of the wikinews for which people have already signed up, I would not change the rules. My two cents (of a euro). Delphine From notafishz at gmail.com Sat Feb 19 02:26:39 2005 From: notafishz at gmail.com (notafish) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 03:26:39 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews requirement In-Reply-To: <35be2a7105021816494d609d65@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050218104746.12631.qmail@web41826.mail.yahoo.com> <42165F4D.8020200@telus.net> <35be2a7105021816494d609d65@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <453b6e505021818263f46990c@mail.gmail.com> My other email was written before I read this thread, sorry about that. However, my point remains the same, and I agree with many other things added on the subject, such as starting a wikinews with *only* five people, but I will leave it at that for now. cheers, Delphine From erik_moeller at gmx.de Sat Feb 19 02:46:43 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 03:46:43 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Polish, Portuguese, Romanian Wikinews set up Message-ID: <4216A893.8070106@gmx.de> As announced and in accordance with the existing language policy, three new Wikinews editions have been set up: http://pl.wikinews.org/ - Polish http://pt.wikinews.org/ - Portuguese http://ro.wikinews.org/ - Romanian I left messages for the users who have pledged to participate (and who could be located), and on the respective Wikipedia Village Pumps. Good luck to the new editions! Peace, Erik From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 19 07:27:02 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 08:27:02 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: wikinews requirement References: <20050218104746.12631.qmail@web41826.mail.yahoo.com> <42165F4D.8020200@telus.net> Message-ID: <4216EA46.8020800@yahoo.com> Ray Saintonge a ?crit: > A common phenomenon that affects all projects. Most of us like to > contribute without being trapped on a merry-go-round of bickering. > >> This is more likely if key policies like NPOV are *not* translated. If >> we can agree on which parts of our policies are not negotiable, we can >> make sure that they are in place. One of these policies can even >> include instructions on what to do if your wiki doesn't follow the >> Wikimedia spirit (contact stewards etc.) >> > Maybe that would have prevented the total shutdown that is taking place > on the japanese wiktionary. By the way... Ec and the others... what do you think of the shutdown of ja wiktionary ? I am asking the question, because if I put in line * shut down of wiktionary - after vote and decision by the japanese community only. No opposition clearly voiced after the shut down. * opening of wikinews - after decision by Erik, with 5 editors support and against french community opinion - clear complaints after the opening. * prospective opening of chinese wikinews - a poll made on meta show a lack of clarity on whether the decision should be made 1) with 5 editors or 2) with a global vote or 3) with a chinese vote So, the least we can say, is that in terms of opening projects, or closing projects, is that THERE IS NO CONSENSUS ON HOW IT SHOULD BE DONE :-) Ant From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 19 09:43:46 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 01:43:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 1 Fund Drive Report In-Reply-To: <20050218191814.31540.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050219094346.58768.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> On Day 1 (Friday eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not available in UTC) we made $9,939.47 (USD equivalent) through a combination of PayPal and MoneyBookers. PayPal breakdown: AUD 314.03 (247.27 USD) CAD 334.40 (271.58 USD) EUR 3413.75 (4464.75 USD) GBP 475.17 (899.77 USD) JPY 28340 (269 USD) USD 3424.63 Total 9576.78 (USD equivalent) Moneybookers: $362.69 (USD equivalent) For the most recent grand total and other details visit http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 Some selected comments from Day 1: See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_1 "Knowledge isn't a possession - it cannot be monopolized." by Robert K Bell "You guys rock!!" by Anonymous "Fantastic system - best of luck from a Random Page addict" " by Steve Agland "Wikipedia is Hope" by Anonymous "Ignorance breeds fear, use information to gain knowledge and empower yourself with Peace" by Anonymous "Wikipedia is a splendid way of sharing information. Lets do this!" by Anonymous "You guys do a fantastic job!!!" by Guoming Sun "You have helped me in college and in life. I don't have much money, and I've never given a donation. But if any cause is worthy, it is your own. Thank you" by Ryan Lewis "Wikipedia, is there anything it can't do?" by Anonymous "If you read this note, donate!" by Anonymous "It's Not Much But Every Individual's Contribution Counts! What The Wiki Is All About!" by Anonymous And my personal favorites: "For not deleting at least some articles" by Vladimir Mozhenkov "Wikipedia: Destroyer of productivity; love of my life." by Anonymous "bonk" by Anonymous Daniel Mayer, Wikimedia CFO PS - Still plenty of translating to do at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF/Fundraising_pages __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From notafishz at gmail.com Sat Feb 19 16:17:01 2005 From: notafishz at gmail.com (notafish) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 17:17:01 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 1 Fund Drive Report In-Reply-To: <20050219094346.58768.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050218191814.31540.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> <20050219094346.58768.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <453b6e505021908173a4f567d@mail.gmail.com> Little international addition to the interesting quotes ;-) No des pescado: ense?a a pescar. by Alberto Gaona "Don't give fish, teach how to fish." Bravo ? cette formidable initiative pour d?mocratiser la connaissance ! by Guillaume Lasnier "Bravo to this wonderful initiative destined to democratize knowledge!" Wissen ist die Waffe der Gewaltlosigkeit. by Arnim Faryn "Knowledge is the weapon of non-violence." and my favorite ones ;-) Bon j'irais pas au restau aujourd'hui ;o). by Fabrice Terrasson "Ok, I won't go to the restaurant today ;o)" Is there really a 200 character max? really? really? really? really? really? really? really? really? really? really? really? really? really? really? really? really? really? really? really? really? ok by anonymous. On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 01:43:46 -0800 (PST), Daniel Mayer wrote: > On Day 1 (Friday eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not available in > UTC) we made $9,939.47 (USD equivalent) through a combination of PayPal and > MoneyBookers. > > PayPal breakdown: > AUD 314.03 (247.27 USD) > CAD 334.40 (271.58 USD) > EUR 3413.75 (4464.75 USD) > GBP 475.17 (899.77 USD) > JPY 28340 (269 USD) > USD 3424.63 > Total 9576.78 (USD equivalent) > > Moneybookers: > $362.69 (USD equivalent) > > For the most recent grand total and other details visit > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 > > Some selected comments from Day 1: > See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_1 > > "Knowledge isn't a possession - it cannot be monopolized." by Robert K Bell > > "You guys rock!!" by Anonymous > > "Fantastic system - best of luck from a Random Page addict" " by Steve Agland > > "Wikipedia is Hope" by Anonymous > > "Ignorance breeds fear, use information to gain knowledge and empower yourself > with Peace" by Anonymous > > "Wikipedia is a splendid way of sharing information. Lets do this!" by > Anonymous > > "You guys do a fantastic job!!!" by Guoming Sun > > "You have helped me in college and in life. I don't have much money, and I've > never given a donation. But if any cause is worthy, it is your own. Thank you" > by Ryan Lewis > > "Wikipedia, is there anything it can't do?" by Anonymous > > "If you read this note, donate!" by Anonymous > > "It's Not Much But Every Individual's Contribution Counts! What The Wiki Is All > About!" by Anonymous > > And my personal favorites: > > "For not deleting at least some articles" by Vladimir Mozhenkov > > "Wikipedia: Destroyer of productivity; love of my life." by Anonymous > > "bonk" by Anonymous > From nsk2 at wikinerds.org Sat Feb 19 17:13:45 2005 From: nsk2 at wikinerds.org (NSK) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 19:13:45 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] currency POV Message-ID: <200502191913.45053.nsk2@wikinerds.org> "Wikimedia needs your help in its $75,000 (?57,500) fund drive." It should be: "Wikimedia needs your help in its US$75,000 (?57,500) fund drive." -- NSK http://portal.wikinerds.org From perrin at apotheon.com Sun Feb 20 00:34:45 2005 From: perrin at apotheon.com (Chad Perrin) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 19:34:45 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] currency POV In-Reply-To: <200502191913.45053.nsk2@wikinerds.org> References: <200502191913.45053.nsk2@wikinerds.org> Message-ID: <4217DB25.4080403@apotheon.com> NSK wrote: > "Wikimedia needs your help in its $75,000 (?57,500) fund drive." > > It should be: > > "Wikimedia needs your help in its US$75,000 (?57,500) fund drive." > Why? The $ symbol, as applied to units of capital called "dollars", was developed for use with US currency. I don't really think there's an NPOV violation going on if the "US" is omitted when representing US dollar amounts. This would, I think, be one of those occasions where it tends to work equally well either way without an implied bias, though prepending "US" might help disambiguate the representation in cases where the $ symbol is used for several different currencies. -- Chad From nsk2 at wikinerds.org Sun Feb 20 02:49:18 2005 From: nsk2 at wikinerds.org (NSK) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 04:49:18 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] currency POV In-Reply-To: <4217DB25.4080403@apotheon.com> References: <200502191913.45053.nsk2@wikinerds.org> <4217DB25.4080403@apotheon.com> Message-ID: <200502200449.18347.nsk2@wikinerds.org> On Sunday 20 February 2005 02:34, Chad Perrin wrote: > where the $ symbol is used for several different currencies. There are Canadian dollars and Australian dollars. I think there are other states using dollars, too. -- NSK http://portal.wikinerds.org From perrin at apotheon.com Sun Feb 20 02:44:51 2005 From: perrin at apotheon.com (Chad Perrin) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 21:44:51 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] currency POV In-Reply-To: <200502200449.18347.nsk2@wikinerds.org> References: <200502191913.45053.nsk2@wikinerds.org> <4217DB25.4080403@apotheon.com> <200502200449.18347.nsk2@wikinerds.org> Message-ID: <4217F9A3.8010802@apotheon.com> NSK wrote: > On Sunday 20 February 2005 02:34, Chad Perrin wrote: > >>where the $ symbol is used for several different currencies. > > > There are Canadian dollars and Australian dollars. I think there are other > states using dollars, too. > Uh, yeah. Did you read what I sent? -- Chad From scottkeir at yahoo.co.uk Sun Feb 20 03:20:07 2005 From: scottkeir at yahoo.co.uk (Scott Keir) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 03:20:07 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] UK Foundation (was Day 1 Fund Drive Report) In-Reply-To: <20050220024811.D82A51AC1938@mail.wikimedia.org> Message-ID: <51E7DB45-82EE-11D9-8479-00039387F4E4@yahoo.co.uk> Given the UK support is about 10% of the total support, has there been consideration given to setting up a UK Foundation, to promote Wikimedia and raise funds in the UK? UK law means that for donations to UK charities, either the donor can reclaim the tax they've paid on the donation, or the charity can (so if a donor gives GBP10, the charity can receive a total of GBP12.80). This is obviously more attractive to both donor and charity. There would be practical issues to consider - of administration, legal matters for setting it up, how trustees etc would be decided, and how the donations received from this charity could be put to use for Wikimedia, but I thought it was worth raising, as I haven't seen it yet on this list. (On a related note, has consideration been given to providing a "proper" facility for people to donate via credit or debit card (Visa, Mastercard, Diners etc)? Not everyone has Paypal, and their fees are quite high. If there's going to be this quantity of donations received on a regular basis, the investment in a WorldPay type system might pay off. [I've investigated this for a small UK charity I'm a trustee of, so the issue is fresh in my mind - apologies if this has been discussed before]) > On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 01:43:46 -0800 (PST), Daniel Mayer, Wikimedia CFO > wrote: > > On Day 1 (Friday eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not > available in > UTC) we made $9,939.47 (USD equivalent) through a combination of > PayPal and > MoneyBookers. > > PayPal breakdown: > AUD 314.03 (247.27 USD) > CAD 334.40 (271.58 USD) > EUR 3413.75 (4464.75 USD) > GBP 475.17 (899.77 USD) > JPY 28340 (269 USD) > USD 3424.63 > Total 9576.78 (USD equivalent) Scott Keir scottkeir at yahoo.co.uk From james at jdforrester.org Sun Feb 20 03:34:50 2005 From: james at jdforrester.org (James D. Forrester) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 03:34:50 -0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] UK Foundation (was Day 1 Fund Drive Report) In-Reply-To: <51E7DB45-82EE-11D9-8479-00039387F4E4@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200502200334.j1K3YaU1027166@mail-relay-2.csv.warwick.ac.uk> On Sunday, February 20, 2005 3:20 AM, Scott Keir wrote: [Snip] > has there been consideration given to setting up a UK Foundation, to > promote Wikimedia and raise funds in the UK? I had a quick look into it, and it looks do-able, but there are some issues (for example, the Wikimedia Foundation United Kingdom could not merely send collected monies overseas to the Wikimedia Foundation and expect to be granted charity status, but would have to be a proper institution in its own right, with a Plan and so on); however, it does look like it would be a not entirely insensible thing for us to do. Obviously, long-term, WMFUK would be sub-ordinate to WMFEU (or perhaps just WMFE?) which, in turn, would function at the behest of the WMF; however, only the last of these three organisations currently exist, so... :-) As I have said a few times before (;-)), I would be happy to help out with the establishment of a UK Foundation. [Snip] Yours, -- James D. Forrester -- Wikimedia: [[W:en:User:Jdforrester|James F.]] Mail: james at jdforrester.org | jon at eh.org | csvla at dcs.warwick.ac.uk IM : (MSN) jamesdforrester at hotmail.com From walter at vankalken.net Sun Feb 20 03:37:57 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 10:37:57 +0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] UK Foundation (was Day 1 Fund Drive Report) In-Reply-To: <200502200334.j1K3YaU1027166@mail-relay-2.csv.warwick.ac.uk> References: <200502200334.j1K3YaU1027166@mail-relay-2.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Message-ID: <42180615.30408@vankalken.net> I certainly think a Wiki UK foundation would be a good idea. So good luck in setting it up! Walter van Kalken From nsk2 at wikinerds.org Sun Feb 20 03:50:47 2005 From: nsk2 at wikinerds.org (NSK) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 05:50:47 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] currency POV In-Reply-To: <4217DB25.4080403@apotheon.com> References: <200502191913.45053.nsk2@wikinerds.org> <4217DB25.4080403@apotheon.com> Message-ID: <200502200550.47463.nsk2@wikinerds.org> On Sunday 20 February 2005 02:34, Chad Perrin wrote: > developed for use with US currency. I don't really think there's an > NPOV violation going on if the "US" is omitted when representing US Wikipedia is international, not a US site. Canadians expect to read Canadian values when they see $. It should be US$ to maintain NPOV. -- NSK http://portal.wikinerds.org From charles.podles at gmail.com Sun Feb 20 04:24:17 2005 From: charles.podles at gmail.com (Charles Podles) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 23:24:17 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] currency POV In-Reply-To: <200502200550.47463.nsk2@wikinerds.org> References: <200502191913.45053.nsk2@wikinerds.org> <4217DB25.4080403@apotheon.com> <200502200550.47463.nsk2@wikinerds.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 05:50:47 +0200, NSK wrote: > Wikipedia is international, not a US site. Canadians expect to read Canadian > values when they see $. It should be US$ to maintain NPOV. > > -- > NSK [[en:MediaWiki:Sitenotice]] specifies US dollars. [[Wikimedia:Wikimedia needs your help]] and [[Wikimedia:Fundraising]] both specify US dollars, while the donation report ([[Wikimedia:Fund drives/2005/Q1/Day 1]]) breaks the amounts down by national currency. Does it need to be changed anywhere else? If not, why is it still being argued about? -- Charles Podles From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 20 05:44:20 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 21:44:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] UK Foundation (was Day 1 Fund Drive Report) In-Reply-To: <51E7DB45-82EE-11D9-8479-00039387F4E4@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20050220054420.19978.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> --- Scott Keir wrote: > (On a related note, has consideration been given to providing a > "proper" facility for people to donate via credit or debit card (Visa, > Mastercard, Diners etc)? Not everyone has Paypal, and their fees are > quite high. If there's going to be this quantity of donations received > on a regular basis, the investment in a WorldPay type system might pay > off. [I've investigated this for a small UK charity I'm a trustee of, > so the issue is fresh in my mind - apologies if this has been discussed > before]) Yep - This is going to happen, likely before the next fund drive. But we will keep PayPal as alternate payment option. -- mav __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Sun Feb 20 08:31:09 2005 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 03:31:09 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] UK Foundation (was Day 1 Fund Drive Report) In-Reply-To: <51E7DB45-82EE-11D9-8479-00039387F4E4@yahoo.co.uk> References: <20050220024811.D82A51AC1938@mail.wikimedia.org> <51E7DB45-82EE-11D9-8479-00039387F4E4@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <742dfd06050220003139b8ee1a@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 03:20:07 +0000, Scott Keir wrote: > Not everyone has Paypal, and their fees are quite high. Paypal allows you to donate with a credit card... and their fees are among the lowest I've seen. Are you sure you're referring to their current fee schedule, and not remembering what it was like two years ago? -- +sj+ From beesley at gmail.com Sun Feb 20 16:27:05 2005 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:27:05 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] UK Foundation (was Day 1 Fund Drive Report) In-Reply-To: <51E7DB45-82EE-11D9-8479-00039387F4E4@yahoo.co.uk> References: <20050220024811.D82A51AC1938@mail.wikimedia.org> <51E7DB45-82EE-11D9-8479-00039387F4E4@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <8b722b800502200827672c453e@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 03:20:07 +0000, Scott Keir wrote: > Given the UK support is about 10% of the total support, has there been > consideration given to setting up a UK Foundation, to promote Wikimedia > and raise funds in the UK? Yes, there has. See http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/British_Wikimedia_chapter There is currently an issue about exactly what area the chapter should cover. British Isles or UK or only England & Wales (since those have a separate charity law from Scotland etc) There has been limited interest in the chapter so far. Only ten people have pledged any interest, despite 86 people being listed at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:UK_Wikipedians%27_notice_board Angela. From yann at forget-me.net Sun Feb 20 18:06:58 2005 From: yann at forget-me.net (Yann Forget) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 19:06:58 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] WSIS: Summary report. Week 1/informe semana 1/rapport semaine 1 Message-ID: <200502201906.58666.yann@forget-me.net> Hi, Here is the summary report from the first week of the World Summit on Information Society meeting in Geneva. Divina Frau-Meigs was very helpful adding our concerns in this report. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Education_and_WGIG.pdf Comments welcome. Regards, Yann ---------- Message transmis ---------- Subject: Summary report. Week 1/informe semana 1/rapport semaine 1 Date: Sunday 20 February 2005 18:31 Text in three languages/texte en trois langues/texto en tres idiomas Dear members of the list General comments : As I foresaw, the first week of prepcom 2 was rather hectic, and scattered. The bureau (in which education holds a seat, that i share with Francis Muguet for reasons of efficiency) is still plodding along to find its legitimacy and you should see on the plenary list some of the recommendations for the charter that we are elaborating (about membership, role, responsibilities and duties). The content and themes group meets everyday in the late afternoon to discuss the topics and texts of the interventions in plenary. The education family should have a slot next week, towards the end. I plan to insert the main themes of our response to the ? friends of the president ?, with an emphasis on funding mechanisms and post-tunis follow up. A quick evaluation of the situation for education : -thank you for the text that you have helped elaborate. It has been well received by most of you who have sent positive responses, and added some details which i will integrate in the next version. The problem remains one of language translation and we should endeavour to have at least a French and spanish version soon. The text has been well received by the other civil society caucuses and by the official delegations i have submitted it to. It turns out that the long version is not a bad thing at all : people are not all experts and they appreciate to have a rationale, before being given recommendations. At this point, the way i summarize the rationale is : ? education for shared knowledge societies and via open access ? ; the plan of action is : ? for a change of scales ?. the long version has allowed delegations to position themselves on specific points they want to defend or support, as they are having to make priorities. So the Tunisians are supporting the free software idea, as they have designated a free software secretariat ; the Europeans are expressing strong interest in the open access recommendation idea ; unesco wants to follow up on teacher training and digital literacy. This is the feedback so far. For next week : The document is not yet perfect. I am currently adding, with those present on the spot, a new item, at the end of the political chapeau, about rights, especially an exemption to Intellectual Property rights for education. The European union has it already as a directive but most countries are pretending they don?t know what it is?. More to the point of prepcom 2, we need to finalize the input on finance mechanisms and internet governance. We will be meeting with the finance mechanisms caucus several times during the week to get their knowledgeable input and to be coherent with civil society positions at large. Same thing for internet governance, though it is a theme that will be deepened as the main subject of prepcom 3, which gives us a little bit more time to make our ideas concrete. A finalized version of the text should reach you by the end of the week, to be still worked on and possibly translated in at least the 6 UN languages. This should be finalized by mid-march so that you can all appropriate it. For next month : -once the text is finalized, each and all of us should distribute it to our governement delegations, as a means of lobbying ; -once the text is finalized, each and all of us should use it as ? language ? in whatever venue we are invited to talk and to participate? Bernard Loing is also preparing a shorter version, on two pages, to serve as a leaftlet to distribute in the name of the taskforce. for prepcom 3 : Organize a roundtable, around one of our issues, maybe around the idea of open access in education, or around media and ICT literacy? On the homework for all those of you who are away, besides the input you can give us it would be strategically important to create two annexes : one with ? inspiring examples ?, one of ? suggested or planned events ?. This is for you to let other know what you are doing or suggest the taskforce to do. Feel free of course to keep on providing feedback and reactions to the version that you have now? Also for your information, some deadlines : Proposals for side events, to be channelled to the Tunisian liaison people, are received until end of April, at the latest ; WGIG open input, for mid April, and again some time in May. Please look at the 3 page document I am putting as annex (at the very bottom of this message): it is the current state of the WGIG document on education, that seems to have been open by an unknown member of the WGIG group. You will see it is very incomplete. We should complete it as much as we can and offer it for consideration to the taskforce. They are asking for input and there is no deadline. I would like us to have a deadline, by end of March, once we have our own response to the president?s friends finalized. What do you think ? Best Divina Frau-Meigs Co-ordinator, education, academia and research taskforce ANNEX below, three pages : WGIG file on education and capacity building. To be completed by us? ******************** chers membres de la liste : commentaires g?n?raux : Comme je l?avais pr?vu, la premi?re semaine de la prepcom 2 a ?t? plut?t bouscul?e et tr?s ?parpill?e. Le bureau (dans lequel la famille ?ducation a un si?ge, que je partage avec Francis Muguet pour des raisons d?efficacit?) est encore ? la recherche de sa propre l?gitim?. Vous avez du voir passer dans la liste de pl?ni?re certaines des recommandations de fonctionnement pour la charte que nous sommes en train d??laborer (sur les membres, le r?le du bureau, ses responsabilit?s, ses devoirs). Le groupe des Th?mes et contenus qui ?labore les textes de la soci?t? civile se r?unit chaque apr?s-midi pour discuter des sujets et des textes ? proposer en pl?ni?re. La famille ?ducation devrait avoir un cr?neau pour la semaine prochaine, jeudi ou vendredi. Je pense que nous y ins?rerons les r?ponses principales que nous avons faites aux ? amis du pr?sident ? avec une focalisation sur les m?canismes de financement et le suivi de Tunis. Une rapide ?valuation de la situation pour l??ducation : Merci ? tous pour vos contributions au texte que nous avons pu ?laborer. La plupart d?entre vous m?ont fait un commentaire positif, en ajoutant quelques points de d?tail que je vais int?grer. Il y a cependant le probl?me de la langue de travail et le besoin d?une traduction au moins en fran?ais et en espagnol?. Le texte a ?t? tr?s bien re?u par les autres groupes de travail de la soci?t? civile et par les d?l?gations officielles auxquelles je l?ai soumis. Il s?av?re que d?avoir une version longue n?est pas une mauvaise chose : les participants m?me c?t? ?tats ne sont pas des experts, et ils appr?cient d?avoir un argumentaire, avant de consid?rer les recommandations. A cette ?tape, je r?sume souvent notre argumentaire par le motto : ? ?ducation pour les soci?t?s du savoir partag?, par le biais de l?acc?s ouvert ?, et le plan d?action par ? pour un changement d??chelles ?. La version longue permet aux d?l?gations de se positionner par rapport ? des th?mes sp?cifiques qu?elles ont envie de d?fendre, car la plupart des ?tats doivent choisir des priorit?s. Ainsi les tunisiens sont pr?ts ? soutenir l?id?e du logiciel libre, et ils ont d?sign? un ministre d?l?gu? au logiciel libre ; les Europ?ens ont exprim? leur int?r?t pour la recommandation sur les cours en acc?s ouvert ; l?Unesco veut faire le suivi de la formation des ma?tres et de l??ducation aux m?dias et aux TIC. Voil? le retour pour le moment? Pour la semaine prochaine : Le document ? r?ponse aux amis du pr?sident ? n?est pas parfait, et c?est celui sur lequel travaillent aussi les ?tats. Je suis en train de rajouter un item suppl?mentaire, ? la fin du chapeau politique (avec ses recommandations d?action en partie op?rationnelle), concernant les droits et sp?cialement la cr?ation d?une exemption aux droits d?auteur pour l??ducation. L?Union europ?enne a d?j? une directive en ce sens, mais la plupart des pays se font tirer l?oreille? Pour coller davantage ? la prepcom 2, qui se focalise sur les m?canismes de financement, il faut concr?tiser la section sur les m?canismes de financement, sans n?gliger la gouvernance d?internet. Nous allons rencontrer ? plusieurs reprises le groupe de travail sur les m?canismes de financement pendant la semaine, pour recevoir leurs remarques et int?grer leur point de vue, afin de rester en coh?rence avec les positions g?n?rales de la soci?t? civile. De m?me avec la gouvernance d?internet, bien que ce soit un th?me qui sera vraiment d?battu en prepcom 3, ce qui nous laisse un peu de temps pour r?fl?chir. Donc une version finalis?e de ce texte devrait vous arriver pour la fin de la semaine, que nous pourrons continuer ? ?laborer, et faire traduire dans les six langues de l?ONU si possible. Ce texte devrait ?tre finalis? vers la mi-mars, pour que vous puissiez tous vous l?approprier. Pour le mois prochain: -une fois le texte finalis?, nous devrions tous les uns et les autres le faire parvenir ? nos d?l?gations nationales et aux ambassadeurs mandat?s au SMSI, comme une fa?on de faire du lobbying ; -une fois le texte finalis?, nous devrions tous utiliser son ? langage ? dans les diff?rentes occasions et ?v?nements o? nous pouvons avoir la possibilit? de nous exprimer. Bernard Loing est en train de pr?parer une version courte, en recto verso, pour nous servir de brochure ? distribuer au nom de la coalition. Pour la prepcom 3 : Il faudrait consid?rer la possiblit? d?organiser une table-ronde, avec des personnalit?s, autour d?un de nos probl?mes principaux, peut-?tre l?id?e de l?acc?s ouvert pour l??ducation, ou encore l??ducation aux m?dias et aux NTIC? Des suggestions ? Pour ce qui est des devoirs ? la maison que tous ceux qui ne peuvent ?tre pr?sents ? Gen?ve, ? part les remarques que vous pouvez nous donner sur le texte, ce serait strat?giquement important de cr?er Deux annexes ? notre texte : l?une sur les ? exemples ?difiants ? l?autre pour les ? ?v?nements planifi?s ou sugg?r?s ?. cela nous permettrait de savoir ce que vous faites ou ce que vous voudriez que la coalition fasse, d?ici ? Tunis (Tunis y inclus). N?h?sitez donc pas ? nous faire part de vos r?actions et suggestions. Pour votre information, quelques dates limites : -les propositions pour les ?v?nements parall?les ? Tunis sont ? faire passer par le personnel de liaison Tunisien, avant la fin avril. -le Groupe sur la gouvernance d?internet (WGIG) tiendra encore des r?unions ouvertes ? Gen?ve en avril et en mai. Veuillez regarder les 3 pages que je vous envoie en annexe (? la fin de ce message) : il s?agit d?un fichier qui est actuellement parmi les documents produits par le groupe. Vous verrez qu?il est vide ou du moins tr?s incomplet. Je vous propose de le compl?ter et de le soumettre au WGIG comme notre contribution. Il n?y a pas de date limite, mais pour nous je dirais qu?il faudrait le leur envoyer fin mars, apr?s avoir finalis? notre propre document. Qu?en pensez-vous ? avec mes cordiales salutations Divina Frau-Meigs Co-ordinatrice, famille ?ducation, enseignement sup?rieur et recherche PS : en annexe et seulement en anglais, le texte mentionn? concernant le WGIG. ********************************************* Estimados miembros de la lista educacion Comentarios generales Como se debia de esperar, la primera semana de la prepcom 2 fue bastante precipitada y la gente bastante dispersada, con personas llegando por primera vez, otra solo quedandose unos cuantos dias? El buro de la sociedad civil (en el que la familia educacion tiene una posicion, que comparto con Francis Muguet, por razones de eficacia) todavia este en busqueda de su legitimidad. Habeis visto pasar en la lista de plenaria algunas de la recomendaciones que se proponen para una carta que estamos elaborando (miembros, papel, responsabilidades y deberes del buro). El grupo de temas y contenidos se reune cada tarde , para elaborar los textos que la sociedad civil propone en la plenaria. La familia educacion tiene un tiempo de palabra para la semana que viene, el jueves o el viernes. Pienso que pondremos nuestras respuestas principales al texto que hemos escrito para los amigos del presidente, con una focalizacion sobre los mecanismos de financiamiento y la continuacion despues de Tunes. Una rapida evaluacion de la situacion para la educacion : Muchas gracias a todos por sus contribuciones al texto que hemos podido elaborar. La mayoria me ha dado comentarios positivos, con ciertos detalles suplementarios que voy a integrar en la nueva version. Hay un problema de idioma y la necessidad de traduccion en espanol y frances que una persona ha planteado y por el que les pido ayuda. .. el texto como esta ahora ha sido bien recibido por los otros grupos de trabajo de la sociedad civil y tarmbien por la delegaciones oficiales que lo han visto. Tener una version larga no es tan pesado como se hubiera podido pensar : la mayoria de la gente presente, por parte de los estados, o es nueva en la cumbre o no es especialista y entonces aprecian tener un argumentario, que les ayuda entender nuestras recomendaciones. Por el momento, cuando sumo nuestro argumentario digo ? educacion para sociedades del saber compartido por el medio del acceso abierto ? y para el plan de accion ? la necessidad de un cambio de escala ?. Esta version larga les permite a las delegaciones positionarse sobre temas especificos, ya que los estados se estan dando prioridades. Asi que los tunisianos apoyna la idea del free software, ya que han creado un secretariado sobre este mismo tema ; la union europea ha expressado interes por la recomendacion sobre los cursos en acceso abierto ; la unesco quiere enfocarse con nosotros sobre la formacion de los maestros y la educacion a los medios? mas la semana que viene sobre estos asuntos? Para la proxima semana : El documento de respuesta a los amigos del presidente tiene que ser perfectionado, ya que los estados lo utilisan como base de trabajo. Estoy anadiendo un tema suplementario, al fin del ? political chapeau ?, (con las recomendaciones adecuadas en la parte ? operational ?), que trata de la creacion de una exempcion especial para educacion por lo que toca a la propriedad intellectual. La union europea ya tiene una directiva en este sentido pero muchos estados arrastran los pies ? para responder mas al enfoque de la prepcom 2, que es los mecanismos de financiacion, vamos a vernos varias veces la semana que viene con el grupo tematico sobre los mecanismos de financiacion, sin abandonar el tema de la governancia del internet. Vamos a integrar ciertas sugerencias que nos haran, para coincidir con la posicion general expressada por la sociedad civil. Por lo que toca a la gobernancia del Internet, que sera un tema mas discutido en la prepcom 3, tenemos un poco mas tiempo para prepararnos. Entonces, para sumir, os mandare una version finalizada del texto en fin de semana, para seguir discutiendola, y si es possible, traducirla en los 6 idiomas de la ONU. Este texto tendria que ser finalizado a mitad de marzo, para que cada uno se lo pueda apropriar. Para el proximo mes : -una vez el texto finalizado, tendriamos que mandarlo cada uno de nosotros a nuestras delegaciones nacionales y a los embajadores de la cumbre, para el nuesto lobbying ; -una vez el texto finalizado, tendriamos que utilisar nuestro ? lenguaje comun ? en cualquiera ocasion se nos presente. Bernard Loing esta preparando una version corta, de dos paginas no mas, para que nos sirva de documentacion para distribuir en el nombre de la coalicion. Para la prepcom 3 : Habria que considerar la possibilidad de organisar une mesa redonda, con varias personalidades invitadas, sobre uno de nuestros temas principales, sea el acceso abierto o la educacion a los medios ?.. Algunas sugerencias ? Por lo que toca a los deberes en casa, para los que no pueden ser presentes en Ginebra, ademas de las sugerencias para anadir al texto de base, creo que seria estrategico de anadir dos adjuntos al nuesto texto : uno sobre ? ejemplos edificantes ? y otro sobre ? eventos planificados y sugeridos ?. Nos permitiria saber lo que os proponeis hacer y lo que quereis que la coalicion haga, desde ahora hacia Tunes (Tunes incluido). Vuestras sugerencias son bienvenidas. Para vuestra informacion, unas fechas limites : -la proposiciones para eventos paralelas en Tunes se tienen que enviar al personal de liaison de Tunisia antes del final de Abril ; -el grupo de trabajo sobre la gobernancia del Internet (WGIG) se va a reunir de modo abierto otra vez en Abril y otra vez mas en Mayo, en Ginebra. Os mando en adjunto 3 paginas que nos tocan a nosotros (ver al final del mensage). Se trata de un fichero, que alguien (anonimo) a abierto por lo que toca a educacion. Como vereis esta casi vacio y muy incompleto. Os propongo de completarlo con nuestra posicion y de enviarlo al WGIG como nuestra contribucion. No hay fecha limite, pero creo que lo tendriamos que enviar a fines de marzo, una vez nuestro propia texto finalizado. Que os parece ? saludos desde Ginebra Divina Frau-Meigs Co-ordinacion, familia educacion, ensenanza superior y investigacion PS : en adjunto y solo en ingles, el fichero del WGIG -- http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux From saintonge at telus.net Sun Feb 20 18:36:45 2005 From: saintonge at telus.net (Ray Saintonge) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 10:36:45 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] currency POV In-Reply-To: <200502200550.47463.nsk2@wikinerds.org> References: <200502191913.45053.nsk2@wikinerds.org> <4217DB25.4080403@apotheon.com> <200502200550.47463.nsk2@wikinerds.org> Message-ID: <4218D8BD.1030001@telus.net> NSK wrote: >On Sunday 20 February 2005 02:34, Chad Perrin wrote: > > >>developed for use with US currency. I don't really think there's an >>NPOV violation going on if the "US" is omitted when representing US >> >> >Wikipedia is international, not a US site. Canadians expect to read Canadian >values when they see $. It should be US$ to maintain NPOV. > It's not a matter of NPOV at all. It's a matter of avoiding ambiguities. Canadians are far more experienced at recognizing which $ is intended by the context than people in the US who get very confused when any curency than their own is mentioned. It's quite common for US merchants, even ones near the border, to refuse Canadian currency because they don't understand it. A Canadian merchant will except the US currency, and have some idea about what to do with exchange rates. This leaves Canadians bemused, and contributes much to putting our streotypes about confused Americans on a solid footing. Ec From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 20 22:30:37 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:30:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 2 Fund Drive Report Message-ID: <20050220223038.25261.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> On Day 2 (Saturday eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not available in UTC) we made $9257.65 (USD equivalent) through PayPal (no updates available for other sources at this time). Day 2 Day 1 comparison Breakdown: USD equiv USD equiv %change PayPal AUD 326.13 256.80 247.27 + 3.85 CAD 211.78 172.00 271.58 -36.67 EUR 2354.98 3080.02 4464.75 -31.01 GBP 454.36 860.37 899.77 - 4.38 JPY 27182 257.80 269.00 - 4.16 USD 4888.47 4888.47 3424.63 +42.74 9257.65 9576.78 - 3.33 MoneyBookers no data 362.69 -100 ---------------------------------------------- Total 9257.65 9,939.47 -6.86 For the most recent grand total and other details visit http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 Some selected comments from Day 2: See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_2 "A wonderful resource, which has already become the Amazon of online encyclopedias!" by Anonymous "Wikipedia is what the internet was meant for: The building of a great information network" by Industrial Hypertext "For one of the most exciting enterprises of mankind!" by Renato Cintra "Wikipedia is my favorite site and an extreme benefit to the world" by Seth Weisberg "Wikimedia captures the true spirit of the Internet, and is priceless for that." by Michael Herring "Probably the most useful website in the world (and proof that wiki's work). Well done!" by Mr D A Whiting "Continue doing your great work, I use wikipedia as much as google" by MetaFilter "This model of information transfer will change humanity." by Anonymous "What can I say? I owe half of what I know to the Wikipedia! Keep up the good work." by Jonathan Grose Some of my favorites: "Wikipedia is dangerous. It is free, it is fair, it is informative, it is fun. Nothing beats it. Nothing even comes close." by Christopher Hutten-Czapski "much much less annoying than an NPR fundraising drive, which just makes me reach for a blank check to stuff into my ears" by Anonymous "Because knowledge may be free, but servers are not." by Anonymous "Free knowledge is even better than free porn." by Steve Guy "What did we do before Wiki?" by Anonymous Daniel Mayer, Wikimedia CFO __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From robin.shannon at gmail.com Mon Feb 21 01:56:25 2005 From: robin.shannon at gmail.com (Robin Shannon) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:56:25 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] currency POV In-Reply-To: <4218D8BD.1030001@telus.net> References: <200502191913.45053.nsk2@wikinerds.org> <4217DB25.4080403@apotheon.com> <200502200550.47463.nsk2@wikinerds.org> <4218D8BD.1030001@telus.net> Message-ID: <623d733805022017562d6a72fa@mail.gmail.com> At the risk of flaming race riots, this intrigues me. What do you mean they are confused by canadian $s. As in they do not know the exchange rate? And do all canadian merchants accept US$, or all merchants near the border? Either way that seems very strange (then again as an Australian land borders seem very strange) if this is getting too offtopic, then you can reply to me personaly. paz y amor, -[[User:The bellman]] On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 10:36:45 -0800, Ray Saintonge wrote: > It's not a matter of NPOV at all. It's a matter of avoiding > ambiguities. Canadians are far more experienced at recognizing which $ > is intended by the context than people in the US who get very confused > when any curency than their own is mentioned. It's quite common for US > merchants, even ones near the border, to refuse Canadian currency > because they don't understand it. A Canadian merchant will except the > US currency, and have some idea about what to do with exchange rates. > > This leaves Canadians bemused, and contributes much to putting our > streotypes about confused Americans on a solid footing. > > Ec -- hit me: robin.shannon.id.au jab me: saudade at jabber.zim.net.au This work is licensed under the Creative Commons Recombo Plus License. To view a copy of this license, visit http://creativecommons.org/licenses/sampling+/1.0/ From saintonge at telus.net Mon Feb 21 18:04:55 2005 From: saintonge at telus.net (Ray Saintonge) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 10:04:55 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] currency POV In-Reply-To: <623d733805022017562d6a72fa@mail.gmail.com> References: <200502191913.45053.nsk2@wikinerds.org> <4217DB25.4080403@apotheon.com> <200502200550.47463.nsk2@wikinerds.org> <4218D8BD.1030001@telus.net> <623d733805022017562d6a72fa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <421A22C7.2030703@telus.net> I was being perfectly literal. Of course now there are some malls that cater to Canadian business, and the merchants in those malls would fall in line with the mall's policy. Apart from that, and a few others who are a little more knowledgeable, rather than informing themselves of exchange rates they tend to look at Canadian currency as some kind of multicoloured play money. Canadians quickly adapt and don't bother trying to use Canadian currency there. To say that ALL Canadian merchants accept US currency would be a little absolute. One can always find exceptions to a rule. It should come as no surprise that a British study a few years ago about jokes determined that the most popular joke topic among Canadians was Americans. :-) Of course too, New Zealander comments about Australians aren't always kindly. ;-) Ec Robin Shannon wrote: >At the risk of flaming race riots, this intrigues me. What do you mean >they are confused by canadian $s. As in they do not know the exchange >rate? And do all canadian merchants accept US$, or all merchants near >the border? Either way that seems very strange (then again as an >Australian land borders seem very strange) > >if this is getting too offtopic, then you can reply to me personaly. > >paz y amor, >-[[User:The bellman]] > >On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 10:36:45 -0800, Ray Saintonge wrote: > > >>It's not a matter of NPOV at all. It's a matter of avoiding >>ambiguities. Canadians are far more experienced at recognizing which $ >>is intended by the context than people in the US who get very confused >>when any curency than their own is mentioned. It's quite common for US >>merchants, even ones near the border, to refuse Canadian currency >>because they don't understand it. A Canadian merchant will except the >>US currency, and have some idea about what to do with exchange rates. >> >>This leaves Canadians bemused, and contributes much to putting our >>streotypes about confused Americans on a solid footing. >> >>Ec >> >> > > > From maveric149 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 21 20:17:56 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:17:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 3 Fund Drive Report In-Reply-To: <20050220223038.25261.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050221201756.57468.qmail@web51609.mail.yahoo.com> On Day 3 (Sunday 20 February eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not available in UTC) we made $7881.66 (USD equivalent) through PayPal and $64 (USD equivalent) through MoneyBookers (no updates available for other sources at this time). As expected the total daily figures are dropping now that the initial excitement surrounding the start of the fund drive is subsiding. But I also expect a surge in new donations as we approach our fund drive goal (as occurred in the last fund drive). Either way, it does now appear that we will reach our goal (US$75,000) before the scheduled end of the fund drive (Friday 11 March). Day 3 Day 2 comparison Breakdown: PayPal USD equiv USD equiv %change AUD 418.59 $330.90 $257.81 28.35% CAD 294.86 $238.93 $171.61 39.23% EUR 2108.06 $2,755.66 $3,078.43 -10.49% GBP 367.21 $696.89 $862.28 -19.18% JPY 20990 $198.96 $257.66 -22.78% USD 3596.33 $3,596.33 $4,888.47 -26.43% PayPal total: $7,817.66 $9,516.25 -17.85% MoneyBookers 64 $362.69 -82.35% TOTAL $7881.66 $9,878.94 -20.22% Grand totals so far (only counting complete days) PayPal USD equiv % grand total AUD 1125.1 $889.39 3.14% CAD 934.92 $757.57 2.67% EUR 7979.65 $10,431.00 36.78% GBP 1322.28 $2,509.42 8.85% JPY 82222 $779.38 2.75% USD 12567.09 $12,567.09 44.31% PayPal total: $27,933.85 Moneybookers: $426.69 1.50% GRAND TOTAL $28,360.54 100.00% For the most recent grand total and other details visit http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 Some selected comments from Day 3: See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_3 "Congratulations on keeping up such a sucessful and valuable internet resource!" by Shaon Diwakar "Wikipedia is amazing, I'm glad to have the opportunity to donate" by Anonymous "My first time here. Thanks for improving civilization." by Anonymous "Thank you so much for this fantastic source of knowledge!" by Thibaut Devulder "This is what the internet is all about - open access to knowledge." by Jonas Smith-Strawn "One of those little big things that makes me proud of being a human. Great idea for humanity. Thank you!" by Omar Franco Guerrero "I like the way it helps freedom in education, I believe this could bring us far" by Louis-Alexandre Marceau "Wikipedia is a brilliant idea, a worthy project, and a vital resource. Thanks." by Anonymous "Thanks for running the most exciting knowledge resource online!" by John Goddard "Possibly the greatest project ever undertaken by humankind, wish I had more to give" by Anonymous "Free access to information is the key to prosperity!" by Simon Roby "Amazing! That's what you are. Keep up the good work." by Anonymous "Knowledge is power. Thankyou Wikimedia for empowering the masses - [[en:User:Ae-a]]" by Anonymous Some of my favorites: "You got me! I found your entries on Terry Pratchett and the Discworld series and just knew I had to support you!" by Deborah Hays "Wikipedia, AKA the Degree Saver! Many thanks" by Tom Graham "The legacy of Alexandria lives on" by Anonymous "Destroyer of productivity - and yet I feel worthwhile for spending so much time here." by Barry Petchesky "Because the world needs an encyclopedia with a full Pokemon section." by Anonymous "Encouraged by the open accounting. And the great product." by Matthew Elvey "Before I knew about Wikipedia, I was afraid. I thought most people in the world were jerks, bigots, or just plain bad people. Then, while looking around at wikipedia and seeing how it worked, I couldn't see how that could be true. Wikipedia just could not exist if it was true: if bad people outnumbered, outgunned, and out-shouted the good. I came to the conclusion that more people in the world were good than bad. That the chances were good that the man you bumped on the train is a good person, that the lady behind the cash register is a good person, that the bus driver is a good person. Wikipedia restored my faith in humanity, and my outlook on life has changed because of it. Thank you." by Christopher Hutten-Czapski "--wait, thank YOU!" by Ruth Temple Daniel Mayer, Wikimedia CFO __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From yann at forget-me.net Mon Feb 21 22:06:31 2005 From: yann at forget-me.net (Yann Forget) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 23:06:31 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Jimbo's speech video from Paris meeting Message-ID: <200502212306.31232.yann@forget-me.net> Hi, Thanks to Thomas from the association "Regarde ? vue" who recorded and produced it, the video from Jimbo's speech on Paris meeting in July 2004 is available at http://bleuenn.wikimedia.org:8080/paris_07_2004/ as well as the audio. It's also available on Torrent: http://bleuenn.wikimedia.org:8080/paris_07_2004/jimmy.wales.paris.07.2004.mkv.torrent and eDonkey network: ed2k://|file|[docu].[videobaseproject.net].wikipedia.jimmy.wales.paris.07.200 4{xvid+ogg}.mkv|335070246|FCAE33745C80226F9970C68447119D99|h=DCQ4Q6MWC4VVZIXH OML5B3RI5YJWORPP|/ Regards, Yann -- http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux From maveric149 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 22 08:05:52 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 00:05:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 4 Fund Drive Report In-Reply-To: <20050221201756.57468.qmail@web51609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050222080552.59110.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> On Day 4 (Monday 21 February eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not available in UTC) we made $6,586.15 (USD equivalent) through PayPal (no updates available for other sources at this time). This is a decrease of 16.44% from Day 3 but still does represent 18.34% of total funds collected so far ($35,904.88 ; only counting full days) and 8.78% of our goal ($75,000). Remarkably, the rate of donations were not too adversely affected by the downtime today. Since the donation forms were not available during a large part of the downtime, I can only guess that people remembered our PayPal account name. Donations did significantly increase soon after a Slashdot story about the downtime was released (9:28PM, EST), forcing us to move the backup donation page once the Slashdot Effect brought down the website hosting it (http://wikisearch.org ; Sorry about that Angela). Day 4 Day 3 comparison Breakdown: PayPal USD equiv USD equiv %change AUD 32 $25.30 $330.90 -92.36% CAD 785 $636.09 $238.93 166.23% EUR 1489.63 $1,947.24 $2,755.66 -29.34% GBP 332.06 $630.18 $696.89 -9.57% JPY 8501 $80.58 $198.96 59.50% USD 3266.76 $3,266.76 $3,596.33 -9.16% PayPal total: $6,586.15 $7,817.66 -15.75% MoneyBookers $64.00 -100.00% TOTAL $6,586.15 $7,881.66 -16.44% Grand totals so far (only counting complete days) PayPal USD equiv %GrandTotal AUD 1150.4 $909.39 2.53% CAD 1571.01 $1,272.99 3.55% EUR 9926.89 $12,976.44 36.14% GBP 1952.46 $3,705.39 10.32% JPY 82302.58 $780.15 2.17% USD 15833.85 $15,833.85 44.10% PayPal total: $35,478.19 Moneybookers: $426.69 1.19% GRAND TOTAL $35,904.88 100.00% % toward goal 47.87% For the most recent grand total and other details visit http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 (once everything is back up) Some selected comments from Day 4: See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_4 in about a day (hopefully I'll be able to post by then) "I love this site. Keep up the awesome work!" by Anonymous "I use Wiki - I have to pay for it !" by Immo Wetzel "You have aided me countless times in my academic pursuits in math, science, and the humanities. I can't thank you guys enough." by Laura Napolitano "Wiki is the future!" by Christoph Burschka "Wikipedia is in my opinion one of the most noble collective human endeavours underway in the world today. Thank you so much for contributing to society with your wonderful website. I love it and abide" by Matthew Barba "Wikimedia Rocks!" by Jasmeet Singh "I have always had a thirst for knowledge, and this project does more than quench it. I am happy to donate." by Matthew Gluesenkamp "Cheaper than cable" by Anonymous Some of my favorites: "Spread your Squids around the world. And use cached pages for logged in users as well. Fix those and I'll be happy as a [[clam]]. Good job so far!!!" by Rami Lehti "A small price to pay for a project like this. But get a move on with all those ambitious plans for paper versions. Most of the world doesn't have computers." by Anonymous "The Wikimedia Foundations is an acheivement of great proportions spreading the one firm truth that information is truly free. Thank you." by Siddharth Bhansali "Help preserve the sum total of human knowledge for less than the price of two Caramel Frappuccinos. Wikipedia is not only fat-free and carbohydrate-free, it will never go straight to your hips!" by Jonet Greene "Give Wiki a boost!!" by Kiminori Noma Daniel Mayer, Wikimedia CFO __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From maveric149 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 22 09:04:25 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 01:04:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 4 Fund Drive Report In-Reply-To: <20050222080552.59110.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050222090425.66347.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> There was a mistake in the grand total table I sent before. Here is the correct table (an email with all the correct tables will be resent shortly). Grand totals so far (only counting complete days) PayPal USD equiv %GrandTotal AUD 1157.1 $914.69 2.62% CAD 1719.92 $1,393.65 3.99% EUR 9469.28 $12,378.24 35.42% GBP 1654.34 $3,139.61 8.98% JPY 90723 $859.96 2.46% USD 15833.85 $15,833.85 45.31% PayPal total: $34,520.00 Moneybookers: $426.69 1.22% GRAND TOTAL $34,946.69 100.00% % toward goal 46.60% --- Daniel Mayer wrote: > On Day 4 (Monday 21 February eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not > available in UTC) we made $6,586.15 (USD equivalent) through PayPal (no > updates > available for other sources at this time). This is a decrease of 16.44% from > Day 3 but still does represent 18.34% of total funds collected so far > ($35,904.88 ; only counting full days) and 8.78% of our goal ($75,000). > > Remarkably, the rate of donations were not too adversely affected by the > downtime today. Since the donation forms were not available during a large > part > of the downtime, I can only guess that people remembered our PayPal account > name. > > Donations did significantly increase soon after a Slashdot story about the > downtime was released (9:28PM, EST), forcing us to move the backup donation > page once the Slashdot Effect brought down the website hosting it > (http://wikisearch.org ; Sorry about that Angela). > > Day 4 Day 3 comparison > Breakdown: > PayPal USD equiv USD equiv %change > AUD 32 $25.30 $330.90 -92.36% > CAD 785 $636.09 $238.93 166.23% > EUR 1489.63 $1,947.24 $2,755.66 -29.34% > GBP 332.06 $630.18 $696.89 -9.57% > JPY 8501 $80.58 $198.96 59.50% > USD 3266.76 $3,266.76 $3,596.33 -9.16% > PayPal total: $6,586.15 $7,817.66 -15.75% > > MoneyBookers > $64.00 -100.00% > > TOTAL $6,586.15 $7,881.66 -16.44% > > Grand totals so far (only counting complete days) > > PayPal USD equiv %GrandTotal > AUD 1150.4 $909.39 2.53% > CAD 1571.01 $1,272.99 3.55% > EUR 9926.89 $12,976.44 36.14% > GBP 1952.46 $3,705.39 10.32% > JPY 82302.58 $780.15 2.17% > USD 15833.85 $15,833.85 44.10% > PayPal total: $35,478.19 > > Moneybookers: > $426.69 1.19% > > GRAND TOTAL $35,904.88 100.00% > > % toward goal 47.87% > > For the most recent grand total and other details visit > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 > (once everything is back up) > > Some selected comments from Day 4: > See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_4 in about a > day (hopefully I'll be able to post by then) > > "I love this site. Keep up the awesome work!" by Anonymous > > "I use Wiki - I have to pay for it !" by Immo Wetzel > > "You have aided me countless times in my academic pursuits in math, science, > and the humanities. I can't thank you guys enough." by Laura Napolitano > > "Wiki is the future!" by Christoph Burschka > > "Wikipedia is in my opinion one of the most noble collective human endeavours > underway in the world today. Thank you so much for contributing to society > with > your wonderful website. I love it and abide" by Matthew Barba > > "Wikimedia Rocks!" by Jasmeet Singh > > "I have always had a thirst for knowledge, and this project does more than > quench it. I am happy to donate." by Matthew Gluesenkamp > > "Cheaper than cable" by Anonymous > > Some of my favorites: > > "Spread your Squids around the world. And use cached pages for logged in > users > as well. Fix those and I'll be happy as a [[clam]]. Good job so far!!!" by > Rami > Lehti > > "A small price to pay for a project like this. But get a move on with all > those > ambitious plans for paper versions. Most of the world doesn't have > computers." > by Anonymous > > "The Wikimedia Foundations is an acheivement of great proportions spreading > the > one firm truth that information is truly free. Thank you." by Siddharth > Bhansali > > "Help preserve the sum total of human knowledge for less than the price of > two > Caramel Frappuccinos. Wikipedia is not only fat-free and carbohydrate-free, > it > will never go straight to your hips!" by Jonet Greene > > "Give Wiki a boost!!" by Kiminori Noma > > > Daniel Mayer, > Wikimedia CFO > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From maveric149 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 22 09:24:57 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 01:24:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 4 Fund Drive Report (updated) In-Reply-To: <20050222080552.59110.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050222092457.87356.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> Numbers have been updated and corrected. On Day 4 (Monday 21 February eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not available in UTC) we made $6,586.15 (USD equivalent) through PayPal (no updates available for other sources at this time). This is a decrease of 16.44% from Day 3 but still does represent 18.85% of total funds collected so far ($34,946.69 ; only counting full days) and 8.78% of our goal ($75,000). Remarkably, the rate of donations were not too adversely affected by the downtime today. Since the donation forms were not available during a large part of the downtime, I can only guess that people remembered our PayPal account name. Donations did significantly increase soon after a Slashdot story about the downtime was released (9:28PM, EST), forcing us to move the backup donation page once the Slashdot Effect brought down the website hosting it (http://wikisearch.org ; Sorry about that Angela). NOTE: Pending transactions are also included in the below numbers (some of them will likely turn out to be canceled) Day 4 Day 3 comparison Breakdown: PayPal USD equiv USD equiv %change AUD 32 $25.30 $330.90 -92.36% CAD 785 $636.09 $238.93 166.23% EUR 1489.63 $1,947.24 $2,755.66 -29.34% GBP 332.06 $630.18 $696.89 -9.57% JPY 8501 $80.58 $198.96 -59.50% USD 3266.76 $3,266.76 $3,596.33 -9.16% PayPal total: $6,586.15 $7,817.66 -15.75% MoneyBookers no data $64.00 -100.00% TOTAL $6,586.15 $7,881.66 -16.44% Grand totals so far (only counting complete days) PayPal USD equiv %GrandTotal AUD 1157.1 $914.69 2.62% CAD 1719.92 $1,393.65 3.99% EUR 9469.28 $12,378.24 35.42% GBP 1654.34 $3,139.61 8.98% JPY 90723 $859.96 2.46% USD 15833.85 $15,833.85 45.31% PayPal total: $34,520.00 Moneybookers: $426.69 1.22% GRAND TOTAL $34,946.69 100.00% % toward goal 46.60% For the most recent grand total and other details visit http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 (once everything is back up) Some selected comments from Day 4: See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_4 in about a day (hopefully I'll be able to post by then) "I love this site. Keep up the awesome work!" by Anonymous "I use Wiki - I have to pay for it !" by Immo Wetzel "You have aided me countless times in my academic pursuits in math, science, and the humanities. I can't thank you guys enough." by Laura Napolitano "Wiki is the future!" by Christoph Burschka "Wikipedia is in my opinion one of the most noble collective human endeavours underway in the world today. Thank you so much for contributing to society with your wonderful website. I love it and abide" by Matthew Barba "Wikimedia Rocks!" by Jasmeet Singh "I have always had a thirst for knowledge, and this project does more than quench it. I am happy to donate." by Matthew Gluesenkamp "Cheaper than cable" by Anonymous Some of my favorites: "Spread your Squids around the world. And use cached pages for logged in users as well. Fix those and I'll be happy as a [[clam]]. Good job so far!!!" by Rami Lehti "A small price to pay for a project like this. But get a move on with all those ambitious plans for paper versions. Most of the world doesn't have computers." by Anonymous "The Wikimedia Foundations is an acheivement of great proportions spreading the one firm truth that information is truly free. Thank you." by Siddharth Bhansali "Help preserve the sum total of human knowledge for less than the price of two Caramel Frappuccinos. Wikipedia is not only fat-free and carbohydrate-free, it will never go straight to your hips!" by Jonet Greene "Give Wiki a boost!!" by Kiminori Noma Daniel Mayer, Wikimedia CFO __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From askatil at rediffmail.com Tue Feb 22 12:11:30 2005 From: askatil at rediffmail.com (Amar Singh Katil) Date: 22 Feb 2005 12:11:30 -0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] re-registration of wikimedia foundartion Message-ID: <20050222121130.23393.qmail@webmail6.rediffmail.com> ?Please confirm my list for the above foundation-1 mailing list by e mail askatil at rediffmail.com From brion at pobox.com Tue Feb 22 12:47:56 2005 From: brion at pobox.com (Brion Vibber) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 04:47:56 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Wiki Problems? In-Reply-To: <421A77A4.3060403@pobox.com> References: <20050221235821.C226F1AC0210@mail.wikimedia.org> <421A77A4.3060403@pobox.com> Message-ID: <421B29FC.4060009@pobox.com> Brion Vibber wrote: > James R. Johnson wrote: >> Is there something wrong with the wikis? I was trying to do >> some writing on ang.wikibooks.org, and ang.wiktionary.org and they don't >> work. Are they down right now, or did something else happen? > > There was some sort of power failure at the colocation facility. We're > in the process of rebooting and recovering machines. The power failure was due to circuit breakers being tripped within the colocation facility; some of our servers have redundant power supplies but *both* circuits failed, causing all our machines and the network switch to unceremoniously shut down. Whether a problem in MySQL, with our server configurations, or with the hardware (or some combination thereof), most of our database servers managed to glitch the data on disk when they went down. (Yes, we use InnoDB tables. This ain't good enough, apparently.) The good news: one server maintained a good copy, which we've been copying to the others to get things back on track. We're now serving all wikis read-only. The bad news: that copy was a bit over a day behind synchronization (it was stopped to run maintenance jobs), so in addition to slogging around 170gb of data to each DB server we have to apply the last day's update logs before we can restore read/write service. I don't know when exactly we'll have everything editable again, but it should be within 12 hours. -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 253 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20050222/3217db09/attachment.pgp From pallee at brinet.com Tue Feb 22 13:34:02 2005 From: pallee at brinet.com (Fleischer) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 08:34:02 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] unsubscribe Message-ID: <000901c518e4$1fe55320$2fedc741@fleischeegrnlo> I wish to unsubscribe. Please show how. Thanks, LF From pallee at brinet.com Tue Feb 22 13:39:44 2005 From: pallee at brinet.com (Fleischer) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 08:39:44 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] currency POV References: <200502191913.45053.nsk2@wikinerds.org> <4217DB25.4080403@apotheon.com> <200502200550.47463.nsk2@wikinerds.org><4218D8BD.1030001@telus.net><623d733805022017562d6a72fa@mail.gmail.com> <421A22C7.2030703@telus.net> Message-ID: <000a01c518e4$205049f0$2fedc741@fleischeegrnlo> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Saintonge" To: "Robin Shannon" ; "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] currency POV >I was being perfectly literal. Of course now there are some malls that >cater to Canadian business, and the merchants in those malls would fall in >line with the mall's policy. Apart from that, and a few others who are a >little more knowledgeable, rather than informing themselves of exchange >rates they tend to look at Canadian currency as some kind of multicoloured >play money. Canadians quickly adapt and don't bother trying to use >Canadian currency there. > > To say that ALL Canadian merchants accept US currency would be a little > absolute. One can always find exceptions to a rule. It should come as no > surprise that a British study a few years ago about jokes determined that > the most popular joke topic among Canadians was Americans. :-) > > Of course too, New Zealander comments about Australians aren't always > kindly. ;-) > > Ec > > Robin Shannon wrote: > >>At the risk of flaming race riots, this intrigues me. What do you mean >>they are confused by canadian $s. As in they do not know the exchange >>rate? And do all canadian merchants accept US$, or all merchants near >>the border? Either way that seems very strange (then again as an >>Australian land borders seem very strange) >> >>if this is getting too offtopic, then you can reply to me personaly. >> >>paz y amor, >>-[[User:The bellman]] >> >>On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 10:36:45 -0800, Ray Saintonge >>wrote: >> >>>It's not a matter of NPOV at all. It's a matter of avoiding >>>ambiguities. Canadians are far more experienced at recognizing which $ >>>is intended by the context than people in the US who get very confused >>>when any curency than their own is mentioned. It's quite common for US >>>merchants, even ones near the border, to refuse Canadian currency >>>because they don't understand it. A Canadian merchant will except the >>>US currency, and have some idea about what to do with exchange rates. >>> >>>This leaves Canadians bemused, and contributes much to putting our >>>streotypes about confused Americans on a solid footing. >>> >>>Ec >>> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > > From brion at pobox.com Tue Feb 22 13:58:40 2005 From: brion at pobox.com (Brion Vibber) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 05:58:40 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] unsubscribe In-Reply-To: <000901c518e4$1fe55320$2fedc741@fleischeegrnlo> References: <000901c518e4$1fe55320$2fedc741@fleischeegrnlo> Message-ID: <421B3A90.1030505@pobox.com> Fleischer wrote: > I wish to unsubscribe. Please show how. > Thanks, > LF > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l I've unsubscribed you. For future reference, you can unsubscribe yourself or suspend mail delivery by logging in at the URL listed in the footer of every message send through the list. (Reproduced above.) -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 253 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20050222/b194dea6/attachment.pgp From aphaia at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 14:12:13 2005 From: aphaia at gmail.com (Aphaia) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 23:12:13 +0900 Subject: For improvement of JA situation (Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again) In-Reply-To: <42152EA1.5010607@vankalken.net> References: <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <20050215205146.GR21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <35be2a7105021515487c713241@mail.gmail.com> <35be2a71050216162545ca58d0@mail.gmail.com> <453b6e50502170642258e2a4d@mail.gmail.com> <453b6e505021706524d69aba9@mail.gmail.com> <42152EA1.5010607@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <35be2a7105022206124bb532ee@mail.gmail.com> Thank you Delphine and Walter for your feedback. After a half year attempt to recruit new admin candidates, here I try to summarize the situation. In my views the current situation on JAWP is: 1. The JA WP is suffered by shortage of sysops. 1a. some users don't recognize the situation, because they don't recognize the situation closely. 1b. other (or the majority in my view) know the shortage but don't think themselves as possible sysop candidate. 1c. except some users, including me (I had contacts over 20 users), almost no one recommended new candidates or urge them to request for sysoship. 2. Some users, not in a small number, misunderstand sysopship of our project. 2a. Some think it a sort of authority or a kind of honour. 2b. Some users who don't know how to work sysop previledges or who are afraid not to understand policies and guideline. Shortly they underestimate themselves. 2c. Some thinks sysops should do so-and-so activities which need no sysop previledges (like casting a Welcome message, voting on VfD, archiving talk discussions or VP ...). Perhaps it can be included to a phenomenon on #3, but I think it is a sort of misunderstanding what sysops are. 3. Misunderstanding around sysopship causes phenomena: like misunderstanding as if sysopship grants a sort of authority, self-descouragement to request for sysopship, gossipng, power conflicts (in my opinion JAWP has such conflict at least twice) and so on. 4. The cultural features of Japanese (because most of Ja contributors are Japanese in birth) , for example lack of trustness but strong demand for assurance (a Japanese sociologist pointed it out in his papter), gossiping ouf of wiki, strong afraid to make a failure or a keen sense avoiding a "shame"; fear to reject of request for sysopship (it could be a shame for him): Point 4 seems to be the hardest points to alter, so I try to think how other points could be changed. For 1c, I expect more users, particular current sysops recommend good users as sysop candidates. An user who I asked him to request for sysopship replied me a recommendation from only one person was not enough make him request for sysopship. Another guy who was already a sysop urged him, iirc, and now the user is a sysop on JAWP. Offering from plural persons would be effective for other people, I think. Since today I urged already over 20 people to request for sysopship. I hope others follow me. Point 3. is hardly deatl with by itself. Misunderstanding established for a long time - for two years - couldn't be easliy resolved. I expect here each user point out such misunderstanding by occasions. Particularly a sysop have misunderstandings like "a sysop can be allowed authoritative by his nature" or "a sysop without using any sysop previledge is still a good sysop". I suspect on JA WP even some sysops have such thoughts.(In my parts I believe in a good sysop should be an active users and use his previledge appropriately by occasion. ) And one of most effective ways to resolve Pt.3, is an appropriate information on what sysop preveledges are. That is, already Notafish showed us an example. I think such close explanations would be helpful not only avoiding misunderstanding but encouraging potential candidates: like Walter said on JAWP, there is no specially difficulties on doing sysop tasks. But it is sometimes unclear even for a newly created sysops in my experience. (Not every sysop knows what is MediaWiki messages, how to merge two files and so on) To encourage potential candidates, I think also DeWP provides us with an interestign attempt. There is an "official trainee" of Wikipedia (Wikipedia-azubi) ;-) A user requested for this position from his own idea. Under some experienced Wikipedians' instruciton, he is learning how to edit articles, make a discussion, deal with trolls and so on.... He said now he writes a coursebook to be a good Wikipedian by himself. On a communith which the shortage of sysops suffers possibly need such attempt to involve more persons into administrative issues, like a trainee course and/or guidebook. -- Aphaia (at) gmail (dot) com From brion at pobox.com Tue Feb 22 23:20:54 2005 From: brion at pobox.com (Brion Vibber) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:20:54 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Wiki Problems? In-Reply-To: <421B77A9.2070201@pobox.com> References: <20050221235821.C226F1AC0210@mail.wikimedia.org> <421A77A4.3060403@pobox.com> <421B29FC.4060009@pobox.com> <20050222174953.GA27612@topjaklont.student.utwente.nl> <421B77A9.2070201@pobox.com> Message-ID: <421BBE56.8040804@pobox.com> Brion Vibber wrote: > Update logs are still replaying, but we're up to 42 minutes prior to the > crash on one machine and still going. I don't expect problems. With two servers fully recovered we've got the wikis up for read-write access; editing is open. Total time from crash to restoring edit service was about 24 hours, 10 minutes. Sigh. Some special pages (including contribs and watchlist) are off for the moment to reduce server load until we have more machines up. Some things remain a little wonky. -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 253 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20050222/3dd2aa65/attachment.pgp From maveric149 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 23 05:10:10 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 21:10:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 4 Fund Drive Report (updated) In-Reply-To: <20050222092457.87356.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050223051010.35604.qmail@web51601.mail.yahoo.com> Sorry folks - one more update on the way. I synced exchange rate figures between the two tables and fixed a more embarrassing error; in my haste to get this report out I included *gross* instead of net figures. Opps. :) -- mav --- Daniel Mayer wrote: > Numbers have been updated and corrected. > > On Day 4 (Monday 21 February eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not > available in UTC) we made $6,586.15 (USD equivalent) through PayPal (no > updates > available for other sources at this time). This is a decrease of 16.44% from > Day 3 but still does represent 18.85% of total funds collected so far > ($34,946.69 ; only counting full days) and 8.78% of our goal ($75,000). > > Remarkably, the rate of donations were not too adversely affected by the > downtime today. Since the donation forms were not available during a large > part > of the downtime, I can only guess that people remembered our PayPal account > name. > > Donations did significantly increase soon after a Slashdot story about the > downtime was released (9:28PM, EST), forcing us to move the backup donation > page once the Slashdot Effect brought down the website hosting it > (http://wikisearch.org ; Sorry about that Angela). > > NOTE: Pending transactions are also included in the below numbers (some of > them > will likely turn out to be canceled) > > Day 4 Day 3 comparison > Breakdown: > PayPal USD equiv USD equiv %change > AUD 32 $25.30 $330.90 -92.36% > CAD 785 $636.09 $238.93 166.23% > EUR 1489.63 $1,947.24 $2,755.66 -29.34% > GBP 332.06 $630.18 $696.89 -9.57% > JPY 8501 $80.58 $198.96 -59.50% > USD 3266.76 $3,266.76 $3,596.33 -9.16% > PayPal total: $6,586.15 $7,817.66 -15.75% > > MoneyBookers > no data $64.00 -100.00% > > TOTAL $6,586.15 $7,881.66 -16.44% > > > Grand totals so far (only counting complete days) > > PayPal USD equiv %GrandTotal > AUD 1157.1 $914.69 2.62% > CAD 1719.92 $1,393.65 3.99% > EUR 9469.28 $12,378.24 35.42% > GBP 1654.34 $3,139.61 8.98% > JPY 90723 $859.96 2.46% > USD 15833.85 $15,833.85 45.31% > PayPal total: $34,520.00 > > Moneybookers: > $426.69 1.22% > > GRAND TOTAL $34,946.69 100.00% > > % toward goal 46.60% > > > For the most recent grand total and other details visit > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 > (once everything is back up) > > Some selected comments from Day 4: > See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_4 in about a > day (hopefully I'll be able to post by then) > > "I love this site. Keep up the awesome work!" by Anonymous > > "I use Wiki - I have to pay for it !" by Immo Wetzel > > "You have aided me countless times in my academic pursuits in math, science, > and the humanities. I can't thank you guys enough." by Laura Napolitano > > "Wiki is the future!" by Christoph Burschka > > "Wikipedia is in my opinion one of the most noble collective human endeavours > underway in the world today. Thank you so much for contributing to society > with > your wonderful website. I love it and abide" by Matthew Barba > > "Wikimedia Rocks!" by Jasmeet Singh > > "I have always had a thirst for knowledge, and this project does more than > quench it. I am happy to donate." by Matthew Gluesenkamp > > "Cheaper than cable" by Anonymous > > Some of my favorites: > > "Spread your Squids around the world. And use cached pages for logged in > users > as well. Fix those and I'll be happy as a [[clam]]. Good job so far!!!" by > Rami > Lehti > > "A small price to pay for a project like this. But get a move on with all > those > ambitious plans for paper versions. Most of the world doesn't have > computers." > by Anonymous > > "The Wikimedia Foundations is an acheivement of great proportions spreading > the > one firm truth that information is truly free. Thank you." by Siddharth > Bhansali > > "Help preserve the sum total of human knowledge for less than the price of > two > Caramel Frappuccinos. Wikipedia is not only fat-free and carbohydrate-free, > it > will never go straight to your hips!" by Jonet Greene > > "Give Wiki a boost!!" by Kiminori Noma > > > Daniel Mayer, > Wikimedia CFO > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! > http://my.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From maveric149 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 23 05:39:51 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 21:39:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 4 Fund Drive Report (final update) Message-ID: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Numbers have been updated and corrected. On Day 4 (Monday 21 February eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not available in UTC) we made $6,287.52 (USD equivalent) through PayPal (no updates available for other sources at this time). This is a decrease of -20.23% from Day 3 but still does represent 18.15% of total funds collected so far ($34,648.06 ; only counting full days) and 8.38% of our goal ($75,000). Remarkably, the rate of donations were not too adversely affected by the downtime on Monday. Since the donation forms were not available during a large part of the downtime, I can only guess that people remembered our PayPal account name. Donations did significantly increase soon after a Slashdot story about the downtime was released (9:28PM, EST on Monday), forcing us to move the backup donation page once the Slashdot Effect brought down the website hosting it (http://wikisearch.org ; Sorry about that Angela). NOTE: Pending transactions are also included in the below numbers (some of them will likely turn out to be canceled) Day 4 Day 3 comparison Breakdown: PayPal USD equiv USD equiv %change AUD 29.68 $23.46 $330.90 -92.91% CAD 750.35 $608.01 $238.93 154.48% EUR 1410.77 $1,844.16 $2,755.66 -33.08% GBP 315.19 $598.17 $696.89 -14.17% JPY 8082 $76.61 $198.96 -61.50% USD 3137.11 $3,137.11 $3,596.33 -12.77% PayPal total: $6,287.52 $7,817.66 -19.57% MoneyBookers no data $64.00 -100.00% TOTAL $6,287.52 $7,881.66 -20.23% Grand totals so far (only counting complete days) PayPal USD equiv %GrandTotal AUD 1154.78 $912.85 2.63% CAD 1685.27 $1,365.57 3.94% EUR 9390.42 $12,275.16 35.43% GBP 1637.47 $3,107.59 8.97% JPY 90304 $855.99 2.47% USD 15704.20 $15,704.20 45.32% PayPal total: $34,221.37 Moneybookers: $426.69 1.23% GRAND TOTAL $34,648.06 100.00% % toward goal 46.20% For the most recent grand total and other details visit http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 Some selected comments from Day 4: See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_4 "I use Wiki - I have to pay for it !" by Immo Wetzel "You have aided me countless times in my academic pursuits in math, science, and the humanities. I can't thank you guys enough." by Laura Napolitano "Wiki is the future!" by Christoph Burschka "Wikipedia is in my opinion one of the most noble collective human endeavours underway in the world today. Thank you so much for contributing to society with your wonderful website. I love it and abide" by Matthew Barba "Wikimedia Rocks!" by Jasmeet Singh "I have always had a thirst for knowledge, and this project does more than quench it. I am happy to donate." by Matthew Gluesenkamp "Cheaper than cable" by Anonymous Some of my favorites: "Spread your Squids around the world. And use cached pages for logged in users as well. Fix those and I'll be happy as a [[clam]]. Good job so far!!!" by Rami Lehti "A small price to pay for a project like this. But get a move on with all those ambitious plans for paper versions. Most of the world doesn't have computers." by Anonymous "The Wikimedia Foundations is an acheivement of great proportions spreading the one firm truth that information is truly free. Thank you." by Siddharth Bhansali "Help preserve the sum total of human knowledge for less than the price of two Caramel Frappuccinos. Wikipedia is not only fat-free and carbohydrate-free, it will never go straight to your hips!" by Jonet Greene "Give Wiki a boost!!" by Kiminori Noma Daniel Mayer, Wikimedia CFO __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From christiaan at last-straw.net Wed Feb 23 14:59:46 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 14:59:46 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'm not sure if this is the correct place to post this message but I was unable to find anywhere more suitable. How are disputes dealt with on Wikimedia meta? Unfortunately I've been involved in an edit war. I've been looking for another way to resolve it but wasn't able to find anything on Wikimedia meta. After many requests to refrain from doing so, and to discuss on talk page instead, User:GerardM has continued to post discussion, personal opinions and Wikipedia NPOV tags to [[meta:End-user image suppression]]. He has also reverted efforts to clarify the purpose of the page. i.e. it is a page for exploring the ins and outs of how end-user image suppression might be implemented, _if_ it were ever called upon. From the language in his posts it appears he thinks he is on some type of crusade to save the world from [[meta:End-user image suppression]]. Christiaan From walter at vankalken.net Wed Feb 23 15:30:14 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:30:14 +0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <421CA186.8070405@vankalken.net> I think that Gerard's paragraph that he added and you keep removing is highlighting the negative side of you idea. Why isn't he allowed to put that there? Walter van Kalken From nknight at runawaynet.com Wed Feb 23 15:41:18 2005 From: nknight at runawaynet.com (Nicholas Knight) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:41:18 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421CA186.8070405@vankalken.net> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <421CA186.8070405@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <421CA41E.5000009@runawaynet.com> Walter van Kalken wrote: > I think that Gerard's paragraph that he added and you keep removing is > highlighting the negative side of you idea. Why isn't he allowed to put > that there? The page is about implementation details. Philisophical discussion of whether or not it should be implemented are off-topic. From christiaan at last-straw.net Wed Feb 23 16:22:44 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:22:44 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421CA186.8070405@vankalken.net> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <421CA186.8070405@vankalken.net> Message-ID: Walter van Kalken wrote: > I think that Gerard's paragraph that he added and you keep removing is > highlighting the negative side of you idea. Why isn't he allowed to > put that there? As Nicholas has pointed out this page is for exploring the implementation of the idea; the opening paragraph clarifies this. There are many places where the merits of it are being and have been discussed throughout the Wikimedia community (including the talk page of this article). If we let the article become bogged down with discussion and POV about the merits of the idea then it would become an article about "whether or not it should be done", instead of "how could be done" (which is the stated purpose of the article!). But it's not simply that, Gerard has been wholly reluctant to raise specific issues instead using a slash and burn policy complete with emotional language, straw man arguments and inappropriate posting of Wikipedia NPOV tags. Christiaan From walter at vankalken.net Wed Feb 23 16:32:30 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 23:32:30 +0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <421CA186.8070405@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <421CB01E.5010304@vankalken.net> Well I kinda understand his reaction. Have you ever lived in a country were they block 30.000 websites and growing? Where the government is actually implying a policy of what its inhabitants are "allowed" to see? Why should we make it any easier for these kind of governments? Walter van Kalken From gerard.meijssen at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 16:36:19 2005 From: gerard.meijssen at gmail.com (Gerard Meijssen) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:36:19 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <421CB103.1000107@gmail.com> Hoi, The article [[meta:End-user content suppression]] was recently renamed to [[meta:End-user image suppression]]. It is an article that descibes how we should tag our content eh images so that people can choose to have content presented to them or not. The proposers of this idea assume that mechanism for censorship will only be triggered by individuals and, that it is to prevent them from coming across content they may find disturbing. They fail to answer several questions: * Who is going to add these tags * What is the basis for tagging content. What to be done when someone comes along who wants even more tagging or the tagging of different categories. * How do you prevent organisations or countries from censoring our content using our own mechanism * How do you ensure that the integrity of our NPOV content is maintained if people will not see the whole of our content * What argument do you have against tagging content if you state that this is only about images In the article that is now called [[meta:End-user image suppression]] I have added a tag to say that the subject is controversial and, the reasons why it is controversial. This is not appreciated and resulted in a slash and burn reaction. Apparantly you are not allowed to say that "when it walks like a duck an it talks like a duck, it must be a duck". I am afraid that censorship is alive and well. The proposers of this policy say that it is only technical. I beg to differ. Censure is what I do not want for our content. Thanks, GerardM Christiaan Briggs wrote: > I'm not sure if this is the correct place to post this message but I > was unable to find anywhere more suitable. How are disputes dealt with > on Wikimedia meta? Unfortunately I've been involved in an edit war. > I've been looking for another way to resolve it but wasn't able to > find anything on Wikimedia meta. > > After many requests to refrain from doing so, and to discuss on talk > page instead, User:GerardM has continued to post discussion, personal > opinions and Wikipedia NPOV tags to [[meta:End-user image > suppression]]. He has also reverted efforts to clarify the purpose of > the page. i.e. it is a page for exploring the ins and outs of how > end-user image suppression might be implemented, _if_ it were ever > called upon. From the language in his posts it appears he thinks he is > on some type of crusade to save the world from [[meta:End-user image > suppression]]. > > Christiaan > > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > From christiaan at last-straw.net Wed Feb 23 17:01:11 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:01:11 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421CB01E.5010304@vankalken.net> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <421CA186.8070405@vankalken.net> <421CB01E.5010304@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <0475bb96eafc36f1c86ef9b4b0563222@last-straw.net> Walter van Kalken wrote: > Well I kinda understand his reaction. Have you ever lived in a country > were they block 30.000 websites and growing? Where the government is > actually implying a policy of what its inhabitants are "allowed" to > see? Why should we make it any easier for these kind of governments? You didn't respond to any of my points. And the point you make above is yet another straw man. If governments want to block or filter Wikipedia there's nothing stopping them from doing that right now. What this proposal does is provide users with a choice about which images they are presented with when surfing Wikimedia projects. Christiaan From walter at vankalken.net Wed Feb 23 17:12:55 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 00:12:55 +0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <0475bb96eafc36f1c86ef9b4b0563222@last-straw.net> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <421CA186.8070405@vankalken.net> <421CB01E.5010304@vankalke n.net> <0475bb96eafc36f1c86ef9b4b0563222@last-straw.net> Message-ID: <421CB997.7070600@vankalken.net> > You didn't respond to any of my points. And the point you make above > is yet another straw man. If governments want to block or filter > Wikipedia there's nothing stopping them from doing that right now. > What this proposal does is provide users with a choice about which > images they are presented with when surfing Wikimedia projects. And what if their providers/governments make the choice for them, Thers is no choice for them left. Also who decides on what is inappropriate? I much better like another solution. Put the shocking pictures on a subpage to the article instead of electronically tagging them. There is nothing stopping anybody from blocking or filtering wikipedia right now no ..... I do not see one reason why we should give them the tools to give them an excuse to do so and make it easier for them. Now they might not filter becuase it is to much of a pain for them. But when we will tag the things for them we only make it easier for them to think hey yes we could do that! I see no reason to help them or give them that idea. Walter van Kalken From christiaan at last-straw.net Wed Feb 23 17:16:35 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:16:35 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421CB103.1000107@gmail.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <421CB103.1000107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5c624a8a6e8200649b2e9b73cd418a85@last-straw.net> I really didn't come here to debate this issue. I came here looking for dispute resolution procedures. Gerard Meijssen wrote: > The proposers of this idea assume that mechanism for censorship will > only be triggered by individuals No, actually they don't. This is clearly covered in the article and in discussions I have already had with you on [[Talk:End-user image suppression]]. > They fail to answer several questions: > * Who is going to add these tags From the article: Tagging images would simply involve ensuring that [[potentially offensive images]] have all been given [[categories]] as per normal procedures. > * What is the basis for tagging content. What to be done when someone > comes along who wants even more tagging or the tagging of different > categories. From the article: Tagging images would simply involve ensuring that [[potentially offensive images]] have all been given [[categories]] as per normal procedures. > * How do you prevent organisations or countries from censoring our > content using our own mechanism The mechanism is categorisation, which we already a have, so you don't, not now not ever. > * How do you ensure that the integrity of our NPOV content is > maintained if people will not see the whole of our content It is up to the user what they see and what they don't. This proposal actually ensures that images are not completely removed from the servers or suppressed by default as is already happening now. > * What argument do you have against tagging content if you state that > this is only about images As noted on [[Talk:Potentially offensive images]] this scheme is a reaction to events that have been taking place regarding controversial images on Wikipedia. Images are immediate; there is no other way to avoid them when surfing to a page other than to have them turned off or hidden. In this sense they a kind of push media. > Censure is what I do not want for our content. Self-censorship is already taking place on Wikipedia. This scheme would help put an end to self-censorship. Christiaan From christiaan at last-straw.net Wed Feb 23 17:21:53 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:21:53 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421CB997.7070600@vankalken.net> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <421CA186.8070405@vankalken.net> <421CB01E.5010304@vankalke n.net> <0475bb96eafc36f1c86ef9b4b0563222@last-straw.net> <421CB997.7070600@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <17e216a3aa882e36901c7b32070c32c3@last-straw.net> Please I'd like to avoid getting into a big debate here on the foundation mailing list. I just want to know what dispute procedures there are on meta. Walter van Kalken wrote: >> You didn't respond to any of my points. And the point you make above >> is yet another straw man. If governments want to block or filter >> Wikipedia there's nothing stopping them from doing that right now. >> What this proposal does is provide users with a choice about which >> images they are presented with when surfing Wikimedia projects. > > And what if their providers/governments make the choice for them, > Thers is no choice for them left. As I said governments and providers can do this already. > Also who decides on what is inappropriate? I much better like another > solution. Put the shocking pictures on a subpage to the article > instead of electronically tagging them. Then by all means go start a page on meta that sets out the implementation of such an idea. I may not agree but I won't troll the page that seeks to set out how to do it. > There is nothing stopping anybody from blocking or filtering wikipedia > right now no ..... I do not see one reason why we should give them the > tools to give them an excuse to do so and make it easier for them. Now > they might not filter becuase it is to much of a pain for them. But > when we will tag the things for them we only make it easier for them > to think hey yes we could do that! I see no reason to help them or > give them that idea. We already tag, it's also called categorisation. This scheme simply asks that all [[potentially offensive images]] are categorised before being said to be implemented. Christiaan From gerard.meijssen at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 17:22:21 2005 From: gerard.meijssen at gmail.com (Gerard Meijssen) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:22:21 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <0475bb96eafc36f1c86ef9b4b0563222@last-straw.net> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <421CA186.8070405@vankalken.net> <421CB01E.5010304@vankalken.net> <0475bb96eafc36f1c86ef9b4b0563222@last-straw.net> Message-ID: <421CBBCD.6000800@gmail.com> Hoi, I am sorry to say that this person is wearing blinkers. He only sees what he wants to see and all othere considerations are not about "what is being discussed". Yes, govennments can block wikipedia but that is an all or nothing operation. With the censoring tags in place, they can say partially block our content, and that is what the censoring tags are there for. The problem as I see it is that this has not been considered because it is detrimental to "the cause". By saying that it provides the user with a choise, the responsibiltiy for colletoral damage is being denied. This is what is not being discussed, this is what is not considered. And everything else is a strawman's argument. Thank God, I still can say what I want to say. Thank God, that I can fight for what I think is important. Me not believing in a God is immaterial to the sentiment.. :) Thanks, GerardM Christiaan Briggs wrote: > Walter van Kalken wrote: > >> Well I kinda understand his reaction. Have you ever lived in a >> country were they block 30.000 websites and growing? Where the >> government is actually implying a policy of what its inhabitants are >> "allowed" to see? Why should we make it any easier for these kind of >> governments? > > > You didn't respond to any of my points. And the point you make above > is yet another straw man. If governments want to block or filter > Wikipedia there's nothing stopping them from doing that right now. > What this proposal does is provide users with a choice about which > images they are presented with when surfing Wikimedia projects. > > Christiaan > > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > From christiaan at last-straw.net Wed Feb 23 17:26:28 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:26:28 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421CBBCD.6000800@gmail.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <421CA186.8070405@vankalken.net> <421CB01E.5010304@vankalken.net> <0475bb96eafc36f1c86ef9b4b0563222@last-straw.net> <421CBBCD.6000800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8d7c98ff22beabd80b8885cf39a5c6c9@last-straw.net> Gerard Meijssen wrote: > I am sorry to say that this person is wearing blinkers. He only sees > what he wants to see and all othere considerations are not about "what > is being discussed". Yes, govennments can block wikipedia but that is > an all or nothing operation. With the censoring tags in place, they > can say partially block our content, and that is what the censoring > tags are there for. Actually we have a name for these tags on Wikimedia projects. They're called categories. Christiaan From richholton at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 17:34:44 2005 From: richholton at gmail.com (Richard Holton) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:34:44 -0600 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421CB103.1000107@gmail.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <421CB103.1000107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4a37983b05022309345845317f@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:36:19 +0100, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > Hoi, > The article [[meta:End-user content suppression]] was recently renamed > to [[meta:End-user image suppression]]. It is an article that descibes > how we should tag our content eh images so that people can choose to > have content presented to them or not. The proposers of this idea assume > that mechanism for censorship will only be triggered by individuals and, > that it is to prevent them from coming across content they may find > disturbing. They fail to answer several questions: The purpose of the page is to discuss the implementation (though I would suggest yet another name change to make this clear)., It is unrealistic to expect at this stage that all questions would be answered. However, I can give you my personal answers to these questions: > * Who is going to add these tags The tags would be normal [[category:xxx]] tags. Such tags are already being added, and would continue to be added by those who are interested in adding them. Certainly not everyone would be required to participate, but I would expect that those who are opposed to censorship would not actively remove these tags -- since that would in fact be a form of censorship. > * What is the basis for tagging content. What to be done when someone > comes along who wants even more tagging or the tagging of different > categories. The basis for tagging would be whatever basis people want to tag them. As I see it, useful tags for images would include tags based on content: clowns, temples, butterflies, sexual positions, etc. Nothing needs to be done when someone wants to add even more tagging of different categories. If a category in inherently POV (excellent bands, disgusting people, offensive image) those categories would fall under the same axe as any other POV. > * How do you prevent organisations or countries from censoring our > content using our own mechanism How do we prevent this from happening now? We cannot directly control the actions of any government or organization. Mechanism for blocking specific sites/pages are common. I don't really see the issue here. > * How do you ensure that the integrity of our NPOV content is maintained > if people will not see the whole of our content The intent of this system is not to make viewing of any content impossible. Only to require some additional intentional action to view it. People can currently engage in POV disputes without having read the content, but their input is not particularly relevant. > * What argument do you have against tagging content if you state that > this is only about images I'm not certain I understand the question. Is the concern that this same mechanism could be used to filter certain articles? This would require software specifically written to allow that, but I don't particularly see any issue is allowing someone to so restrict his or her own choices. Google allows you to have "safe search" on or off. What's the issue? > In the article that is now called [[meta:End-user image suppression]] I > have added a tag to say that the subject is controversial and, the > reasons why it is controversial. This is not appreciated and resulted in > a slash and burn reaction. Apparantly you are not allowed to say that > "when it walks like a duck an it talks like a duck, it must be a duck". > I am afraid that censorship is alive and well. > Indeed! Why don't you start another article on Meta discussing the merits of free speech / censorship? What is preventing you? Censorship? Freedom of speech does not allow someone to say whatever they want whenever they want. > The proposers of this policy say that it is only technical. I beg to > differ. Censure is what I do not want for our content. > I'm not aware that this has reached the level of a proposed policy. As I've attempted to describe above, no content would be censored. You either have a misunderstood the nature of what is being discussed, or you have a very different understanding of censorship than I have.. -Rich Holton en.wikipedia:User:Rholton From gerard.meijssen at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 17:53:08 2005 From: gerard.meijssen at gmail.com (Gerard Meijssen) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:53:08 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <8d7c98ff22beabd80b8885cf39a5c6c9@last-straw.net> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <421CA186.8070405@vankalken.net> <421CB01E.5010304@vankalken.net> <0475bb96eafc36f1c86ef9b4b0563222@last-straw.net> <421CBBCD.6000800@gmail.com> <8d7c98ff22beabd80b8885cf39a5c6c9@last-straw.net> Message-ID: <421CC304.4060400@gmail.com> Christiaan Briggs wrote: > Gerard Meijssen wrote: > >> I am sorry to say that this person is wearing blinkers. He only sees >> what he wants to see and all othere considerations are not about >> "what is being discussed". Yes, govennments can block wikipedia but >> that is an all or nothing operation. With the censoring tags in >> place, they can say partially block our content, and that is what the >> censoring tags are there for. > > > Actually we have a name for these tags on Wikimedia projects. They're > called categories. > > Christiaan So basically you provide me with THE argument to get rid of categories.. Actually, you are wrong. pictures are not categorised and we do not have software to prevent pictures from being seen. The proposal is to have our mediawiki software react to specific tags. When you program for pictures, you can also program for text because in essence there is no difference. I have never liked categories anyway, they only provide people the opportunity to, well categorise, nothing creative about it and much opportunity to get it wrong. When you want your tagging, you do not take into account that it infringes on people's rights to represent their material in a certain way. Basically censorship is bad, it is very much POV and it prevents people from learning about subjects in the fullest sense of the word. When you do not want to see sex do not go to natasha.com (or whatever they are called) When you want to learn about sex, go to Wikipedia, it explains what a vagina is and what parts are where. Really instructive, I would not like to have people not know when they look it up. Thanks, Gerard From andreengels at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 18:02:32 2005 From: andreengels at gmail.com (Andre Engels) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 19:02:32 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421CA41E.5000009@runawaynet.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <421CA186.8070405@vankalken.net> <421CA41E.5000009@runawaynet.com> Message-ID: <6faf39c9050223100215da4f2e@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:41:18 -0800, Nicholas Knight wrote: > The page is about implementation details. Philisophical discussion of > whether or not it should be implemented are off-topic. I fundamentally disagree with that. If we are not going to do it, discussing how we are going to do it is useless. If we are going to do it, objections should be allowed to be raised. Also, stating the objections to a given idea might well aid in improving it by showing the places where it needs improvement. Either the people writing this page want to include it, or they don't. If they don't want to include it, they should stop wasting their and other people's time on it. If they do want to include it, they should be ready to discuss its inclusion. Andre Engels From rowan.collins at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 18:07:32 2005 From: rowan.collins at gmail.com (Rowan Collins) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:07:32 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> Christiaan, Gerard, et al: * I have not previously been involved in any of the discussions over image suppression / self-censorship / content choice, and do not, at present intend to state any particular opinion about this issue. * I don't know what, if any, formal conflict resolution procedures there are on meta, but since you've asked here, I thought I would give some personal opinions about the conflict you are having. I would stress that I have no set opinion on this debate, so although these are my opinions, I hope they are relatively unbiased. * Firstly, I do not consider Gerard's actions to be "trolling", but nor do I consider Christiaan to be "blinkered". This is a conflict of understanding, pure and simple, regarding the purpose of a particular page. This seems to be something of a problem on meta, because it is so unstructured, and lacks a coherent community of its own, so people vary greatly in how they perceive it. (I've been involved in similarly heated debates over pages to do with single login proposals.) * Secondly, I don't think the use of a "disputed tag" is appropriate here: meta has no NPOV policy, or any equivalent, and simply linking to that of the English Wikipedia is irrelevant. Meta is a very different environment, and meta pages are more closely related to those of traditional wikis, in that they are a kind of on-going refactored discussion, rather than content aimed at presentation. Indeed, it's debatable whether many of them should have separate "Talk:" pages at all - a traditional Wiki simply refactors discussion ["ThreadMode"] into structured content ["DocumentMode"] as necessary. [Note that there is an exception in terms of "documentation" pages, but those are increasingly confined to the Help: namespace] In other words, disputed or disputable content is the norm, not the exception. * Thirdly, I do think it is important for those creating a page with a particular purpose in mind to not only state what is on-topic, but provide an outlet for what is off-topic. If "philosophical" discussion about the proposal is taking place elsewhere, it should be referenced clearly. In other words, the introduction should read something like "This page discusses technical implications of implementing such a scheme; for discussion of whether it would be desirable, see: ..." If there is no page appropriate to end that sentence, it should be created, if only by adding a heading to the existing page under which the discussion can take place. It seems to me that there *is* a lot of existint discussion about this, so it ought to be possible for a central point to be found or created. [References to appropriate parts of the mailing list archives could also be added.] * In summary: *in my opinion* it is perfectly OK for a page on meta to exist that discusses the technical measures needed for something that may never happen; however, it is also OK for people to discuss the necessity and/or desirability of the feature. Therefore, if it seems appropriate to separate the two, they should be adequately cross-referenced, so that it is clear to anyone entering the discussion how they relate. I hope this helps, and I hope it doesn't read too much like legalese - I've been reading documents from my local Borough Council all afternoon... -- Rowan Collins BSc [IMSoP] From christiaan at last-straw.net Wed Feb 23 18:10:02 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:10:02 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <6faf39c9050223100215da4f2e@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <421CA186.8070405@vankalken.net> <421CA41E.5000009@runawaynet.com> <6faf39c9050223100215da4f2e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3302da97815534d609434c90cdafc0b3@last-straw.net> Andre Engels wrote: > Nicholas Knight wrote: > >> The page is about implementation details. Philisophical discussion of >> whether or not it should be implemented are off-topic. > > I fundamentally disagree with that. If we are not going to do it, > discussing how we are going to do it is useless. If we are going to do > it, objections should be allowed to be raised. Also, stating the > objections to a given idea might well aid in improving it by showing > the places where it needs improvement. There is absolutely nothing at all stopping you from raising objections. Just raise them in the appropriate place, not on the page where we are trying to describe _how_ it might be implemented. Christiaan From christiaan at last-straw.net Wed Feb 23 18:12:09 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:12:09 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421CC304.4060400@gmail.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <421CA186.8070405@vankalken.net> <421CB01E.5010304@vankalken.net> <0475bb96eafc36f1c86ef9b4b0563222@last-straw.net> <421CBBCD.6000800@gmail.com> <8d7c98ff22beabd80b8885cf39a5c6c9@last-straw.net> <421CC304.4060400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <023acc7e7408402e575944c71e83022f@last-straw.net> Gerard Meijssen wrote: > So basically you provide me with THE argument to get rid of > categories.. Well you're welcome to propose the idea. I won't be supporting it. > pictures are not categorised Right. Which planet are we on again? > and we do not have software to prevent pictures from being seen. That's right, while [[End-user image suppression]] is looking into site-based software that will allow users to defer the seeing of certain images. I'll say it again and I'll say it a million times but you always ignore me: self-censorship already takes place on Wikipedia due to some people taking offence at certain images, such as the clitoris and autofellatio. This scheme leaves it up to the user what they see and don't see, the choice is theirs. Christiaan From christiaan at last-straw.net Wed Feb 23 18:17:23 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:17:23 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I think your comments will help a lot Rowan, particularly about pointing to desirability discussion in the opening paragraph. Thanks, Christiaan On 23 Feb 2005, at 6:07 pm, Rowan Collins wrote: > Christiaan, Gerard, et al: > > * I have not previously been involved in any of the discussions over > image suppression / self-censorship / content choice, and do not, at > present intend to state any particular opinion about this issue. > * I don't know what, if any, formal conflict resolution procedures > there are on meta, but since you've asked here, I thought I would give > some personal opinions about the conflict you are having. I would > stress that I have no set opinion on this debate, so although these > are my opinions, I hope they are relatively unbiased. > > * Firstly, I do not consider Gerard's actions to be "trolling", but > nor do I consider Christiaan to be "blinkered". This is a conflict of > understanding, pure and simple, regarding the purpose of a particular > page. This seems to be something of a problem on meta, because it is > so unstructured, and lacks a coherent community of its own, so people > vary greatly in how they perceive it. (I've been involved in similarly > heated debates over pages to do with single login proposals.) > > * Secondly, I don't think the use of a "disputed tag" is appropriate > here: meta has no NPOV policy, or any equivalent, and simply linking > to that of the English Wikipedia is irrelevant. Meta is a very > different environment, and meta pages are more closely related to > those of traditional wikis, in that they are a kind of on-going > refactored discussion, rather than content aimed at presentation. > Indeed, it's debatable whether many of them should have separate > "Talk:" pages at all - a traditional Wiki simply refactors discussion > ["ThreadMode"] into structured content ["DocumentMode"] as necessary. > [Note that there is an exception in terms of "documentation" pages, > but those are increasingly confined to the Help: namespace] In other > words, disputed or disputable content is the norm, not the exception. > > * Thirdly, I do think it is important for those creating a page with a > particular purpose in mind to not only state what is on-topic, but > provide an outlet for what is off-topic. If "philosophical" discussion > about the proposal is taking place elsewhere, it should be referenced > clearly. In other words, the introduction should read something like > "This page discusses technical implications of implementing such a > scheme; for discussion of whether it would be desirable, see: ..." If > there is no page appropriate to end that sentence, it should be > created, if only by adding a heading to the existing page under which > the discussion can take place. It seems to me that there *is* a lot of > existint discussion about this, so it ought to be possible for a > central point to be found or created. [References to appropriate parts > of the mailing list archives could also be added.] > > * In summary: *in my opinion* it is perfectly OK for a page on meta to > exist that discusses the technical measures needed for something that > may never happen; however, it is also OK for people to discuss the > necessity and/or desirability of the feature. Therefore, if it seems > appropriate to separate the two, they should be adequately > cross-referenced, so that it is clear to anyone entering the > discussion how they relate. > > I hope this helps, and I hope it doesn't read too much like legalese - > I've been reading documents from my local Borough Council all > afternoon... > > -- > Rowan Collins BSc > [IMSoP] > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > From christiaan at last-straw.net Wed Feb 23 19:58:24 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 19:58:24 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> The opening paragraph of [[End-user image suppression]] now reads: This page deals with the technical implications of implementing [[end-user]] controlled suppression of [[potentially offensive images]] on [[Wikimedia projects]]. For discussion of whether it would be desirable, see [[desirability of end-user image suppression]], the [[February 2005]] archive of WikiEN-I mailing list, and [[Wikipedia:Image censorship]]. ?Christiaan From maveric149 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 23 20:43:07 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:43:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 5 Fund Drive Report In-Reply-To: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050223204308.55412.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> On Day 5 (Tuesday 22 February eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not available in UTC) we made $6,704.38 (USD equivalent) through PayPal (completed payments only; no updates available for other sources at this time). This is a increase of 6.63% from Day 4 and represents 16.21% of total funds collected so far ($$41,352.44 ; only counting full days) and 8.94% of our goal ($75,000). All Wikimedia sites were either down or slow and read-only for most of the day. Day 5 Day 4 comparison Breakdown: PayPal USD equiv USD equiv %change AUD 42.22 $33.37 $23.46 42.25% CAD 287.30 $232.80 $608.01 -61.71% EUR 953.10 $2,553.09 $1,844.16 38.44% GBP 313.77 $595.47 $598.17 -0.45% JPY 13792 $130.73 $76.61 70.65% USD 3158.91 $3,158.91 $3,137.11 0.69% PayPal total: $6,704.38 $6,287.52 6.63% MoneyBookers no data $0.00 -na- TOTAL $6,704.38 $6,287.52 6.63% NOTE: Pending transactions are also included in the below numbers (some of them will likely turn out to be canceled) Grand totals so far (only counting complete days) PayPal USD equiv %GrandTotal AUD 1197.00 $946.23 2.29% CAD 1972.57 $1,598.37 3.87% EUR 11343.52 $14,828.25 35.86% GBP 1951.24 $3,703.06 8.95% JPY 104096 $986.73 2.39% USD 18863.11 $18,863.11 45.62% PayPal total: $40,925.75 Moneybookers: $426.69 1.03% GRAND TOTAL $41,352.44 100.00% % toward goal 55.14% For the most recent grand total and other details visit http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 Some selected comments from Day 5: See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_5 "The best site to arise from the internet: free access to all human knowledge" by Raymond Hill "Wikipedia is my homepage. I learn something new everyday." by Anonymous "Knowledge should be free, and that is what Wikipedia is about!" by Hendrik Richter "I wikipedia now instead of google my searches." by Michael Patronik "as an international student in sweden where books are expensive, this free library is wondeful" by Florian Gruenke "just a small token of appreciation for SUCH a wonderful group of resources" by Anonymous "Wikipedia is the most informative website I have ever been to" by Timothy Oster "Hopefully this can help prevent future outages! Keep up the great work, from everyone at tp.org!" by Joseph Moran "Wikimedia is entertaining, reliable and important. Thank you." by Anonymous "Thanks Wikipedia. You're my favourite website." by Oliver Kiehl "Nice work to all involved behind the scenes!" by Anonymous "Wikipedia is a shining example of the power and durability of the original Internet spirit: preserving and extending the commons." by Fergus O'Reilly "image is nothing, thirst for knowledge is everything" by Anonymous "Wikimedia projects: the 8th wonder of the world, thanks !" by Francois Schnell "I'd rather read Wikipedia than my college text books." by William Rose Some of my favorites: "i just found this place out! and hell yes i'll support this!" by Don Nguyen "The advancement and diffusion of knowledge is the only guardian of true liberty." by Izaro Lopez-Garcia "You guys rock. We use MediaWiki software for our wiki and love it. Thanks for making our dream project possible." by Jack Herrick "If you use it, and you can afford it, you SHOULD pay for it." by Tucker Lentz "Brilliant" by Anonymous Daniel Mayer, Wikimedia CFO __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Thu Feb 24 11:31:33 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (nicolas.weeger) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:31:33 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] fr.wikinews logo Message-ID: Unless my Internet cache is totally wrong, the fr.wikinews logo is now the "official" wikinews one, without the beta. But considering how many edits there are on this language, i'd pretty much favor the big red "BETA" warning it used to have.... Nicolas Ryo Acc?dez au courrier ?lectronique de La Poste : www.laposte.net ; 3615 LAPOSTENET (0,34?/mn) ; t?l : 08 92 68 13 50 (0,34?/mn) From gerard.meijssen at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 11:44:16 2005 From: gerard.meijssen at gmail.com (Gerard Meijssen) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:44:16 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] fr.wikinews logo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <421DBE10.7090108@gmail.com> nicolas.weeger wrote: >Unless my Internet cache is totally wrong, the fr.wikinews logo is now the "official" wikinews one, without the beta. But considering how many edits there are on this language, i'd pretty much favor the big red "BETA" warning it used to have.... > >Nicolas Ryo > Nicolas, That is a route you do not want to go. The fr:wikinews is controversial, there has been a lot of agro about it being started in the first place. The Wikinews project as a whole is not beta anymore so consequently the French wikinews is not BETA either. Your point is that the news coverage is not great. This is true for other Wikinews projects as well. The nl:wikinews is not lively either.The last article written there was by me because I wanted some more action.. :( (This was on the 19th after 14 days of no new news) What you are really after is something different: "what is the minimum level of activity to have the continued existence of a wikinews." No news in 14 days might qualify. Then again, how do you treat the request for a restart ? Again five known editors promissing to give it a go ?? It is a Pandora's box, but please let hope leave her box.. :) Thanks, GerardM From christiaan at last-straw.net Thu Feb 24 12:36:20 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:36:20 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> Message-ID: <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> I've come back for more advice. Although the outlining of and discussion about the desirability of [[End-user image suppression]] has been moved to [[Desirability of End-user image suppression]], and this is made clear in the opening paragraph of [[End-user image suppression]], User:GerardM is still insisting on posting desirability discussion to [[End-user image suppression]]. What to do? Christiaan From notafishz at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 12:50:36 2005 From: notafishz at gmail.com (notafish) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:50:36 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] fr.wikinews logo In-Reply-To: <421DBE10.7090108@gmail.com> References: <421DBE10.7090108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <453b6e50502240450f452b46@mail.gmail.com> > That is a route you do not want to go. The fr:wikinews is controversial, > there has been a lot of agro about it being started in the first place. > The Wikinews project as a whole is not beta anymore so consequently the > French wikinews is not BETA either. Agreed.. in theory. If the project goes live, the whole project goes live. But I *so* agree with Ryo on that BETA thing... Maybe again we should adapt the rules (the more we go, the more we learn), and make sure a specific language project is viable before it goes off BETA? > Your point is that the news coverage is not great. Not great is the least we can say. The last story written is an editorial (and I mean the word) on a very controversial subject ie. music download., without references and definitely defending a POV. > What you are really after is something different: "what is the minimum > level of activity to have the continued existence of a wikinews." No > news in 14 days might qualify. Then again, how do you treat the request > for a restart ? Again five known editors promissing to give it a go ?? > It is a Pandora's box, but please let hope leave her box.. :) I am not so much in favor of a closing down of the thing, but a BETA thing would be grand. And if it stays BETA for another year...well... Delphine From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Thu Feb 24 12:50:56 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 23:50:56 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> Message-ID: <20050224125056.GZ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Christiaan Briggs (christiaan at last-straw.net) [050224 23:36]: > I've come back for more advice. Although the outlining of and > discussion about the desirability of [[End-user image suppression]] has > been moved to [[Desirability of End-user image suppression]], and this > is made clear in the opening paragraph of [[End-user image > suppression]], User:GerardM is still insisting on posting desirability > discussion to [[End-user image suppression]]. What to do? The desirability discussion presumably needs greater notice in the technical discussion. Many people (myself included) consider separation of technical methods of implementing a highly debatable policy decision from debate of the desirability of that policy decision to be artificial and disingenuous at best. Doing so appears to make the debatable social decision a fait accompli. Trying to send *all* criticism off to a separate article is also a favourite tool of POV warriors on en: and presumably elsewhere; possibly this is seen as reminiscent of that. - d. From gerard.meijssen at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 12:53:39 2005 From: gerard.meijssen at gmail.com (Gerard Meijssen) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:53:39 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> Message-ID: <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> Christiaan Briggs wrote: > I've come back for more advice. Although the outlining of and > discussion about the desirability of [[End-user image suppression]] > has been moved to [[Desirability of End-user image suppression]], and > this is made clear in the opening paragraph of [[End-user image > suppression]], User:GerardM is still insisting on posting desirability > discussion to [[End-user image suppression]]. What to do? > > Christiaan Christiaan, It is one thing to split articles into two, it is another to castrate the talk pages and move all things that are not to your liking elsewhere. Your right to ask for a method to have mechanisms into the mediawiki software is equal to my right to have an angst of this first step of introducing censorship into our projects. *Your proposal will make it mandatory to allow for tags/categorisations so that censorship will work. *Your original article title was End-user content suppression and decided that this was not "good" renamed it to image suppression *There has already been one anonymous coward asking for using your censoring mechanism for content. *You have repeatedly removed all things you thing are detrimental to your proposal from the article and its talk page *Basically you ask for censorship and find people who oppose it. As to your question, withdraw your proposal or allow for criticism. Thanks, as to your proposal: No thanks ! GerardM From christiaan at last-straw.net Thu Feb 24 12:56:03 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:56:03 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <20050224125056.GZ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <20050224125056.GZ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: David Gerard wrote: > Christiaan Briggs: > >> I've come back for more advice. Although the outlining of and >> discussion about the desirability of [[End-user image suppression]] >> has been moved to [[Desirability of End-user image suppression]], and >> this is made clear in the opening paragraph of [[End-user image >> suppression]], User:GerardM is still insisting on posting >> desirability discussion to [[End-user image suppression]]. What to >> do? > > The desirability discussion presumably needs greater notice in the > technical discussion. You're not seriously suggesting that Gerard did not know about it are you? Christiaan From walter at vankalken.net Thu Feb 24 12:56:12 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:56:12 +0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <20050224125056.GZ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gma il.com> <82256297924c146e 19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-str aw.net> <20050224125056.GZ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <421DCEEC.1080409@vankalken.net> > >The desirability discussion presumably needs greater notice in the >technical discussion. Many people (myself included) consider separation of >technical methods of implementing a highly debatable policy decision from >debate of the desirability of that policy decision to be artificial and >disingenuous at best. Doing so appears to make the debatable social >decision a fait accompli. Trying to send *all* criticism off to a separate >article is also a favourite tool of POV warriors on en: and presumably >elsewhere; possibly this is seen as reminiscent of that. > > > > I conquer with David Gerard, he stated very eloquently how I feel on this subject. Before even thinking about technical implication lets first debate if we want it or not. As I understand it the developers have been asked already to program this? How can that be if we didn't even agree on such a feature in the first place. Walter van Kalken From christiaan at last-straw.net Thu Feb 24 13:02:44 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:02:44 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421DCEEC.1080409@vankalken.net> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gma il.com> <82256297924c146e 19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-str aw.net> <20050224125056.GZ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <421DCEEC.1080409@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <32bc8f98af9e42c8497b3f7226106463@last-straw.net> Walter van Kalken wrote: > Before even thinking about technical implication lets first debate if > we want it or not. Part of the problem of this debate is that there has never been a tangible scheme to discuss, only a idea. It is your opinion that it is ridiculous to outline a scheme before deciding on it. Equally I could argue that it is ridiculous to decide on a system that has not been outlined. If you don't like what is being done then I suggest you nominate the page for deletion. > As I understand it the developers have been asked already to program > this? Not that I know of. I have asked developers to post their opinions on how easy or difficult it would be to code however. Christiaan From nknight at runawaynet.com Thu Feb 24 13:04:35 2005 From: nknight at runawaynet.com (Nicholas Knight) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 05:04:35 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> Gerard Meijssen wrote: > Christiaan, > It is one thing to split articles into two, it is another to castrate > the talk pages and move all things that are not to your liking > elsewhere. Your right to ask for a method to have mechanisms into the > mediawiki software is equal to my right to have an angst of this first > step of introducing censorship into our projects. THERE. IS. NO. CENSORSHIP. > *Your proposal will make it mandatory to allow for tags/categorisations > so that censorship will work. Our proposal will make it POSSIBLE for categories to be used by END-USERS to CHOOSE what they wish to see. > *Your original article title was End-user content suppression and > decided that this was not "good" renamed it to image suppression Because the focus was and has always been on images. Whether like measures need to be taken for text is a different discussion. > *There has already been one anonymous coward asking for using your > censoring mechanism for content. What? > *You have repeatedly removed all things you thing are detrimental to > your proposal from the article and its talk page The article was intended for a discussion of the technical side of it. Policy can be dealt with elsewhere. > *Basically you ask for censorship and find people who oppose it. You really need to read the wikien-l archives. Christiaan was one of the most vocal opponents of linking images instead of inlining them. > As to your question, withdraw your proposal or allow for criticism. Constructive criticism is always welcome. Blanket false statements are not. From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Thu Feb 24 13:08:30 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:08:30 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> Message-ID: <20050224130829.GA25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Nicholas Knight (nknight at runawaynet.com) [050225 00:04]: > Gerard Meijssen wrote: > >It is one thing to split articles into two, it is another to castrate > >the talk pages and move all things that are not to your liking > >elsewhere. Your right to ask for a method to have mechanisms into the > >mediawiki software is equal to my right to have an angst of this first > >step of introducing censorship into our projects. > THERE. IS. NO. CENSORSHIP. Capitals or no, it appears at the very least this is a mechanism to enable and encourage it. I doubt you would claim there is no wish from anyone to censor Wikipedia per se, or to do something that could reasonably be tagged censorship. - d. From nknight at runawaynet.com Thu Feb 24 13:11:02 2005 From: nknight at runawaynet.com (Nicholas Knight) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 05:11:02 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <20050224130829.GA25721@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <20050224130829.GA25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <421DD266.7050109@runawaynet.com> David Gerard wrote: > Capitals or no, it appears at the very least this is a mechanism to enable > and encourage it. I doubt you would claim there is no wish from anyone to > censor Wikipedia per se, or to do something that could reasonably be tagged > censorship. No one has yet explained how the proposed mechanism could be used for censorship. All we have is Gerard on some sort of holy crusade shouting "censorship!". From christiaan at last-straw.net Thu Feb 24 13:15:40 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:15:40 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <20050224130829.GA25721@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <20050224130829.GA25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <5cf3e51ecfbeca429388f77dc1bf718e@last-straw.net> David Gerard wrote: > I doubt you would claim there is no wish from anyone to censor > Wikipedia per se, or to do something that could reasonably be tagged > censorship. Except that self-censorship (i.e. suppression of images) already takes place on Wikipedia due to some people taking offence at being presented with certain images of the clitoris, torture and autofellatio. Christiaan From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Thu Feb 24 13:16:22 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:16:22 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <20050224125056.GZ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <20050224131622.GB25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Christiaan Briggs (christiaan at last-straw.net) [050224 23:56]: > David Gerard wrote: > >The desirability discussion presumably needs greater notice in the > >technical discussion. > You're not seriously suggesting that Gerard did not know about it are > you? As I explained in the bit you snipped, dividing the technical discussion of how to implement a feature from the desirability of that feature in the first place may be seen as artificial and disingenuous. And it certainly appears that this is being seen that way. Further (to say again the thing you snipped), continuing to discuss the implementation of a feature while purging note of the fact that its esirability is *strongly* contentious closely resembles an attempt to make it a fait accompli. Also, you should note that - although I am certainly not saying this is your intention at all - trying to shift *all* criticism off to a separate page is a favourite tactic of POV warriors on en: and in other places. As such, your actions may be seen as highly reminiscent of that. I suggest you not try so hard to purge this technical page of all mention of the highly contentious social debate it's concerned with implementing one side of. i.e. "It hurts when I do this!" "Don't do that, then." - d. From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Thu Feb 24 13:17:22 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:17:22 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <5cf3e51ecfbeca429388f77dc1bf718e@last-straw.net> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <20050224130829.GA25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <5cf3e51ecfbeca429388f77dc1bf718e@last-straw.net> Message-ID: <20050224131722.GC25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Christiaan Briggs (christiaan at last-straw.net) [050225 00:15]: > David Gerard wrote: > >I doubt you would claim there is no wish from anyone to censor > >Wikipedia per se, or to do something that could reasonably be tagged > >censorship. > Except that self-censorship (i.e. suppression of images) already takes > place on Wikipedia due to some people taking offence at being presented > with certain images of the clitoris, torture and autofellatio. This appears to be saying just what I said, but is phrased as a disagreement. Please clarify. - d. From gerard.meijssen at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 13:17:17 2005 From: gerard.meijssen at gmail.com (Gerard Meijssen) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:17:17 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> Message-ID: <421DD3DD.6030209@gmail.com> Nicholas Knight wrote: > Gerard Meijssen wrote: > >> Christiaan, >> It is one thing to split articles into two, it is another to castrate >> the talk pages and move all things that are not to your liking >> elsewhere. Your right to ask for a method to have mechanisms into the >> mediawiki software is equal to my right to have an angst of this >> first step of introducing censorship into our projects. > > > THERE. IS. NO. CENSORSHIP. > No need to shout and yes we disagree on that one. The way you lot have been trampling on my views on this has the hallmarks of censorship. Yes, in my opinion this proposal is about censorship. >> *Your proposal will make it mandatory to allow for >> tags/categorisations so that censorship will work. > > > Our proposal will make it POSSIBLE for categories to be used by > END-USERS to CHOOSE what they wish to see. We disagree on this one. For it is not only end users that will choose. Read your own proposal point 4. > >> *Your original article title was End-user content suppression and >> decided that this was not "good" renamed it to image suppression > > > Because the focus was and has always been on images. Whether like > measures need to be taken for text is a different discussion. Technically it is not different so why should it be a different discussion ? > >> *There has already been one anonymous coward asking for using your >> censoring mechanism for content. > > > What? Right, it is a straw mans argument that one thing leads to the next. Read the history if you can still find what was said. It is there. > >> *You have repeatedly removed all things you thing are detrimental to >> your proposal from the article and its talk page > > > The article was intended for a discussion of the technical side of it. > Policy can be dealt with elsewhere. It may have been intended by you for this. On Meta no case has been made why we should want such an abomination. > >> *Basically you ask for censorship and find people who oppose it. > > > You really need to read the wikien-l archives. Christiaan was one of > the most vocal opponents of linking images instead of inlining them. I do not need to read the wikien-l archives. They have no bearing upon META. If you want to propose something on META put your case forward on META. I would not ask you to read the wikpedia-nl mailing list either. Either put your case forward or you do not have a case. > >> As to your question, withdraw your proposal or allow for criticism. > > > Constructive criticism is always welcome. Blanket false statements are > not. > Your idea of what is true and false is coloured by where you stand, where you are from. Your truth is just that. Making me out for a liar and being not constructive is well, not friendly to say the least. Thanks, No thanks ! GerardM From gerard.meijssen at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 13:20:27 2005 From: gerard.meijssen at gmail.com (Gerard Meijssen) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:20:27 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421DD266.7050109@runawaynet.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <20050224130829.GA25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <421DD266.7050109@runawaynet.com> Message-ID: <421DD49B.6000002@gmail.com> Nicholas Knight wrote: > David Gerard wrote: > >> Capitals or no, it appears at the very least this is a mechanism to >> enable >> and encourage it. I doubt you would claim there is no wish from >> anyone to >> censor Wikipedia per se, or to do something that could reasonably be >> tagged >> censorship. > > > No one has yet explained how the proposed mechanism could be used for > censorship. All we have is Gerard on some sort of holy crusade > shouting "censorship!". > Have tags, can select and filter. Censorship abc PS Holy crusade ?? nah, shouting .. MOST DEFINETLY IF THAT IS WHAT IT TAKES !! :) Thanks, No thanks ! GerardM From christiaan at last-straw.net Thu Feb 24 13:24:07 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:24:07 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <20050224131622.GB25721@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <20050224125056.GZ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <20050224131622.GB25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: You didn't answer my question. You're not seriously suggesting that Gerard did not know about it are you? The rest of your email didn't make sense to me. How does one purge debate while at the same announcing where it is in the opening paragraph? Purge, in case you were unaware, means to remove. The only thing that has happened, on the advice of, Rowan Collins, is that it has been _moved_ so as discussion about technical implications is not drowned by Gerard's shrill. Christiaan David Gerard wrote: > Christiaan Briggs: >> David Gerard wrote: > >>> The desirability discussion presumably needs greater notice in the >>> technical discussion. > >> You're not seriously suggesting that Gerard did not know about it are >> you? > > As I explained in the bit you snipped, dividing the technical > discussion of > how to implement a feature from the desirability of that feature in the > first place may be seen as artificial and disingenuous. And it > certainly > appears that this is being seen that way. > > Further (to say again the thing you snipped), continuing to discuss the > implementation of a feature while purging note of the fact that its > esirability is *strongly* contentious closely resembles an attempt to > make > it a fait accompli. > > Also, you should note that - although I am certainly not saying this is > your intention at all - trying to shift *all* criticism off to a > separate > page is a favourite tactic of POV warriors on en: and in other places. > As > such, your actions may be seen as highly reminiscent of that. > > I suggest you not try so hard to purge this technical page of all > mention > of the highly contentious social debate it's concerned with > implementing > one side of. i.e. "It hurts when I do this!" "Don't do that, then." > > > - d. From erik_moeller at gmx.de Thu Feb 24 13:29:43 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:29:43 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] fr.wikinews logo In-Reply-To: <453b6e50502240450f452b46@mail.gmail.com> References: <421DBE10.7090108@gmail.com> <453b6e50502240450f452b46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <421DD6C7.8030701@gmx.de> I suggest editing MediaWiki:Tagline and putting the "beta" there. That might be done for any Wikinews editions which does not yet have a sufficient level of activity. This is better than defacing the logo, in my opinion. It turns out that it is very difficult to predict that activity, and I don't think the current process on Meta is really anywhere close to doing that. The Swedish Wikinews is very active, for example, thanks in large part to a handful of dedicated editors -- but that might change any day. Of course, all the editions are suffering from the current slowness, and recent downtime. One notable difference in Wikinews to other projects is that a quick glance at the frontpage gives you an impression of the level of activity: if you only see old news, obviously the project is not very active. This is good if it is seen as an incentive to work on it, bad if it frustrates people and makes them give up on the project. Wikipedia, Wikibooks, Wikisource, Wiktionary in the different languages all have their phases of activity and inactivity, but nowhere are those phases more visible than on Wikinews. Switching the project into read-only whenever it enters such a phase seems like a bad and un-wiki idea; perhaps you could create a template like this for the frontpage instead: The French edition of Wikinews is currently not very active. Please participate in building this website into a useful resource! Ideas for increasing activity are collected at [[Wikinews:Building Wikinews]]. Here are a few suggestions to increase activity: 1) Translate. It is much easier to translate a well-written article than to write a new one from scratch. Wikinews articles have to grow to publishable quality very fast, "stubs" aren't helpful, and references are a strict requirement. As such, writing them takes a lot of effort. But the English Wikinews, for example, is now publishing articles at a reasonable rate. As an author of that edition, I also get great satisfaction out of knowing that my work is going to be translated into languages I do not speak. 2) Prominently link the equivalent of http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Submit_a_story - this helps to attract people who do not know about the Wikinews process and just want to get their feet wet. 3) Have brief news items on the frontpage which aren't fully developed stories yet. This should only be done until real stories are being published regularly, so as to not conflict with the [[Current events]] pages on Wikipedia. 4) Edit MediaWiki:Sitenotice and point people to the IRC channel, mailing list and Village Pump. Building a community helps to create a feeling of identity and the desire to protect that community, which is an incentive to do work on the site. 5) Organize and participate in events like the design contest or the Wikinews chats. Point people on Wikipedia to these events to get them interested in the project. 6) If you are a software developer, help us to implement MediaWiki features like category RSS feeds and dynamic article display. http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1411 is the only code currently being actively worked on, to my knowledge. Please also join the international Wikinews channel at #wikinews -- a lot of good people are hanging out there who may help you to answer questions with the project. Regards, Erik From christiaan at last-straw.net Thu Feb 24 13:25:47 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:25:47 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <20050224131722.GC25721@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <20050224130829.GA25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <5cf3e51ecfbeca429388f77dc1bf718e@last-straw.net> <20050224131722.GC25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: David Gerard wrote: > Christiaan Briggs: >> David Gerard wrote: > >>> I doubt you would claim there is no wish from anyone to censor >>> Wikipedia per se, or to do something that could reasonably be tagged >>> censorship. > >> Except that self-censorship (i.e. suppression of images) already >> takes place on Wikipedia due to some people taking offence at being >> presented with certain images of the clitoris, torture and >> autofellatio. > > This appears to be saying just what I said, but is phrased as a > disagreement. Please clarify. Editors censor, as in self-censor, already on Wikipedia. Christiaan From nknight at runawaynet.com Thu Feb 24 13:26:48 2005 From: nknight at runawaynet.com (Nicholas Knight) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 05:26:48 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421DD3DD.6030209@gmail.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <421DD3DD.6030209@gmail.com> Message-ID: <421DD618.1030303@runawaynet.com> Gerard Meijssen wrote: > Nicholas Knight wrote: > >> Gerard Meijssen wrote: >> >>> Christiaan, >>> It is one thing to split articles into two, it is another to castrate >>> the talk pages and move all things that are not to your liking >>> elsewhere. Your right to ask for a method to have mechanisms into the >>> mediawiki software is equal to my right to have an angst of this >>> first step of introducing censorship into our projects. >> >> >> >> THERE. IS. NO. CENSORSHIP. >> > No need to shout and yes we disagree on that one. The way you lot have > been trampling on my views on this has the hallmarks of censorship. Yes, > in my opinion this proposal is about censorship. > >>> *Your proposal will make it mandatory to allow for >>> tags/categorisations so that censorship will work. >> >> >> >> Our proposal will make it POSSIBLE for categories to be used by >> END-USERS to CHOOSE what they wish to see. > > > We disagree on this one. For it is not only end users that will choose. > Read your own proposal point 4. I don't even know what that's doing there or who added it. I'm removing it now. This proposal has never had anything to do with proxies or IP ranges. Even if that was part of the goal, it would be a technical nightmare and would not get the parties implementing such filters anything close to what they want. >>> *Your original article title was End-user content suppression and >>> decided that this was not "good" renamed it to image suppression >> >> >> >> Because the focus was and has always been on images. Whether like >> measures need to be taken for text is a different discussion. > > > Technically it is not different so why should it be a different > discussion ? It is different both philisophically and technically. The code used to defer images will not be usable for entire articles. >>> *There has already been one anonymous coward asking for using your >>> censoring mechanism for content. >> >> >> >> What? > > > Right, it is a straw mans argument that one thing leads to the next. You're still not making sense. > Read the history if you can still find what was said. It is there. You brought it up, you point me to it. >> Constructive criticism is always welcome. Blanket false statements are >> not. >> > Your idea of what is true and false is coloured by where you stand, > where you are from. Your truth is just that. Making me out for a liar > and being not constructive is well, not friendly to say the least. I don't feel very friendly toward someone that can't articulate themselves but insists they're right. From nknight at runawaynet.com Thu Feb 24 13:28:18 2005 From: nknight at runawaynet.com (Nicholas Knight) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 05:28:18 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421DD49B.6000002@gmail.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <20050224130829.GA25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <421DD266.7050109@runawaynet.com> <421DD49B.6000002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <421DD672.5090100@runawaynet.com> Gerard Meijssen wrote: > Have tags, can select and filter. Censorship abc So you oppose libraries creating separate sections of separate categories of books and letting users browse the sections they want to and not browse the sections they don't? From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Thu Feb 24 13:29:22 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:29:22 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <20050224125056.GZ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <20050224131622.GB25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <20050224132922.GE25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Christiaan Briggs (christiaan at last-straw.net) [050225 00:24]: > You didn't answer my question. You're not seriously suggesting that > Gerard did not know about it are you? No, nor did I at any time suggest it. If you can point at the message in which I did so, I would welcome this so as to improve the clarity of my communicaiton. > The rest of your email didn't make sense to me. Even the bits about how continuing technical discussion of implementing a feature when the very need for it is highly contentious can be considered artificial and disingenuous, and come across as an intention to implement the debatable policy as a fait accompli? (Note that this concerns appearances, not necessarily what you were thinking at the time.) > How does one purge > debate while at the same announcing where it is in the opening > paragraph? Evidently he feels it is profoundly lacking in prominence. > Purge, in case you were unaware, means to remove. The only thing that > has happened, on the advice of, Rowan Collins, is that it has been > _moved_ so as discussion about technical implications is not drowned by > Gerard's shrill. Are you assuming bad faith on Gerard's part? - d. From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Thu Feb 24 13:31:00 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:31:00 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421DD618.1030303@runawaynet.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <421DD3DD.6030209@gmail.com> <421DD618.1030303@runawaynet.com> Message-ID: <20050224133100.GF25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Nicholas Knight (nknight at runawaynet.com) [050225 00:26]: > I don't feel very friendly toward someone that can't articulate > themselves but insists they're right. PERHAPS HE COULD WRITE ALL IN CAPS. SHOUTING USUALLY WORKS, DOESN'T IT? - d. From christiaan at last-straw.net Thu Feb 24 13:35:10 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:35:10 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <20050224132922.GE25721@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <20050224125056.GZ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <20050224131622.GB25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <20050224132922.GE25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <6bd61a3003c99719e8379035326d1a94@last-straw.net> David Gerard wrote: >> How does one purge debate while at the same announcing where it is in >> the opening paragraph? > > Evidently he feels it is profoundly lacking in prominence. You didn't answer my question. >> Purge, in case you were unaware, means to remove. The only thing that >> has happened, on the advice of, Rowan Collins, is that it has been >> _moved_ so as discussion about technical implications is not drowned >> by Gerard's shrill. > > Are you assuming bad faith on Gerard's part? You used the word purge. Please explain what has been purged. I would hate to think any of this discussion has been removed from Wikimedia. Christiaan From nknight at runawaynet.com Thu Feb 24 13:36:23 2005 From: nknight at runawaynet.com (Nicholas Knight) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 05:36:23 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <20050224132922.GE25721@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <20050224125056.GZ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <20050224131622.GB25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <20050224132922.GE25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <421DD857.8090902@runawaynet.com> David Gerard wrote: > Are you assuming bad faith on Gerard's part? I've been assuming bad faith on Gerard's part for days. I've seen no evidence of good faith, and plenty of bad. From gerard.meijssen at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 13:40:49 2005 From: gerard.meijssen at gmail.com (Gerard Meijssen) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:40:49 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421DD672.5090100@runawaynet.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <20050224130829.GA25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <421DD266.7050109@runawaynet.com> <421DD49B.6000002@gmail.com> <421DD672.5090100@runawaynet.com> Message-ID: <421DD961.1070909@gmail.com> Nicholas Knight wrote: > Gerard Meijssen wrote: > >> Have tags, can select and filter. Censorship abc > > > So you oppose libraries creating separate sections of separate > categories of books and letting users browse the sections they want to > and not browse the sections they don't? In a library all the books are there. I am opposed to libraries not stocking on books that are encyclopedic in their outlook. So, I do not need to see Hustler in my local "bieb". For that I could go to a book shop. Your remark is not friendly nor constructive, you asked for an explanation how your proposal can be used by a censor. I explained. And your reply has nothing to do with the information given. Thanks, No thanks ! GerardM From christiaan at last-straw.net Thu Feb 24 13:48:53 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:48:53 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421DD961.1070909@gmail.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <20050224130829.GA25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <421DD266.7050109@runawaynet.com> <421DD49B.6000002@gmail.com> <421DD672.5090100@runawaynet.com> <421DD961.1070909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7ca364a07ecd62db3df218b01fd568d3@last-straw.net> Gerard Meijssen wrote: > In a library all the books are there. I am opposed to libraries not > stocking on books that are encyclopedic in their outlook. Precisely. And what is currently happening on Wikipedia is that many editors are pushing for certain images be suppressed or even removed based on their ability to cause offence (i.e. self-censorship). This scheme would mean that such images do not need to be removed from the server, instead letting the end-user choose to hide them. Christiaan From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Thu Feb 24 13:50:53 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (nicolas.weeger) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:50:53 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] fr.wikinews logo Message-ID: > I suggest editing MediaWiki:Tagline and putting the "beta" there. That > might be done for any Wikinews editions which does not yet have a > sufficient level of activity. This is better than defacing the logo, in > my opinion. Since there are no sysops on fr:, thus the sitenotice can't be changed, I suggest you do it :) > One notable difference in Wikinews to other projects is that a quick > glance at the frontpage gives you an impression of the level of Except you can't be sure people will go to the front page. But that's beside the point regarding the beta status. > Regards, > > Erik Nicolas Acc?dez au courrier ?lectronique de La Poste : www.laposte.net ; 3615 LAPOSTENET (0,34?/mn) ; t?l : 08 92 68 13 50 (0,34?/mn) From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Thu Feb 24 13:52:57 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (nicolas.weeger) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:52:57 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] fr.wikinews logo Message-ID: > > That is a route you do not want to go. The fr:wikinews is controversial, > > there has been a lot of agro about it being started in the first place. > > The Wikinews project as a whole is not beta anymore so consequently the > > French wikinews is not BETA either. So when chinese wikinews opens, it won't be beta either, he... I for one favor the beta-per-language discrimination - because you can *never* know the level of activity. Nicolas Acc?dez au courrier ?lectronique de La Poste : www.laposte.net ; 3615 LAPOSTENET (0,34?/mn) ; t?l : 08 92 68 13 50 (0,34?/mn) From christiaan at last-straw.net Thu Feb 24 14:08:41 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:08:41 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421DD3DD.6030209@gmail.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <421DD3DD.6030209@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8531a6dfc9c7201c5e2dfd2b57861f51@last-straw.net> This is getting out of hand, now GerardM is resorting to vandalism: http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=End- user_image_suppression&curid=15602&diff=0&oldid=0 Christiaan From aphaia at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 16:30:37 2005 From: aphaia at gmail.com (Aphaia) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 01:30:37 +0900 Subject: [Foundation-l] fr.wikinews logo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <35be2a7105022408305b1bcbf2@mail.gmail.com> A question on "beta" stage of Wikinews came to me. Though Wikinews is a prospective project, it is still one of most controversial project among us, and hasty action woudn't be good for its development in my humble opinion. I've understood it is (or has been, I am not sure for that) on its beta stage because of the board decision, not depending on its activity. The most recent board was held in the last week and there was no discussion if Wikinews switched from its beta stage to the stage in its real activity. And this decision was made for the Wikinews entirely, not to its each local project. Now it seems to be suggested the judge of the end of beta stage depends only the activites of each local project, not related to the board decision. It seems to me a bit strange and adventurous. It is my wrong understanding or I miss some announce on Wikinews? -- Aphaea@*.wikipedia.org email: Aphaia @ gmail (dot) com From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Thu Feb 24 18:03:21 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 05:03:21 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <6bd61a3003c99719e8379035326d1a94@last-straw.net> References: <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <20050224125056.GZ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <20050224131622.GB25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <20050224132922.GE25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <6bd61a3003c99719e8379035326d1a94@last-straw.net> Message-ID: <20050224180321.GH25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Christiaan Briggs (christiaan at last-straw.net) [050225 00:35]: > David Gerard wrote: > >>How does one purge debate while at the same announcing where it is in > >>the opening paragraph? > >Evidently he feels it is profoundly lacking in prominence. > You didn't answer my question. Er, yes I did. That's three times I have now. Please go back and read the posts, I'm not going to rephrase it a fourth time. > >>Purge, in case you were unaware, means to remove. The only thing that > >>has happened, on the advice of, Rowan Collins, is that it has been > >>_moved_ so as discussion about technical implications is not drowned > >>by Gerard's shrill. > >Are you assuming bad faith on Gerard's part? > You used the word purge. Please explain what has been purged. I would > hate to think any of this discussion has been removed from Wikimedia. >From a very relevant page. You can hardly claim a contentious move is not being planned when you are actively planning it, and having such a page give the impression it is anything other than highly contentious is (evidently) problematic in itself. - d. From aphaia at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 18:05:49 2005 From: aphaia at gmail.com (Aphaia) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 03:05:49 +0900 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <8531a6dfc9c7201c5e2dfd2b57861f51@last-straw.net> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <421DD3DD.6030209@gmail.com> <8531a6dfc9c7201c5e2dfd2b57861f51@last-straw.net> Message-ID: <35be2a7105022410057d29db30@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:08:41 +0000, Christiaan Briggs wrote: > This is getting out of hand, now GerardM is resorting to vandalism: I don't think he did vandalism around on this issue. He had just a different thought and idea of yours: what should be discussed, what are related topics and so on. And it is not good in my humble opinion to call someone who acted not in a way you would like to a "vandal". I look here only the deferences of opinions and sad misunderstandings. NO vandalism, I dare say. Though Gerald and I have different opinions sometimes, in my views he has been on a good faith since I''ve known him Christian, you requested for comments on this issue on EN WP. I thank you for your request, "Two are better than one", but it were better you would have done so before you stated Gerald made vandalism. BTW I can't understand why you made your request on EN WP which only ENWP issues would be resolve. If your concern is only related to EN WP, why have you discussion on meta and foundation-l? (For your information meta has also RfC to resolve comunity-wide disputes) It's not an accusation but a pure question. Anyway I hope you will have sufficient comments to resolve this issues, and all of you, to Christiaan, Nicholas Knight and Gerald will be satisfied with the result at last. -- Aphaea@*.wikipedia.org email: Aphaia @ gmail (dot) com From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Thu Feb 24 18:07:57 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 05:07:57 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <8531a6dfc9c7201c5e2dfd2b57861f51@last-straw.net> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <421DD3DD.6030209@gmail.com> <8531a6dfc9c7201c5e2dfd2b57861f51@last-straw.net> Message-ID: <20050224180757.GI25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Christiaan Briggs (christiaan at last-straw.net) [050225 01:08]: > This is getting out of hand, now GerardM is resorting to vandalism: > http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=End- > user_image_suppression&curid=15602&diff=0&oldid=0 That's not even close to vandalism by any reasonable definition. Wht it has done is concisely outline the actual situation that you appear not to wish to acknowledge in any way at all. What Gerard actually did with the above edit was take this paragraph: This page originated from a discussion on the WikiEN-I mailing list where some level of consensus was reached between the free-speech and content suppression parties that a technical solution is possible that will go a long way towards satisfying most mainstream positions in the debate. - and add the following text: However, it should be stressed that this page is ''not'' intended to imply that this is a fait accompli, but merely an initial exploration of the specification and feasibility of a possible solution. The features described below are ''not'' currently under development, and will certainly not be made live until their desirability has been firmly established. Are you saying that this is false, and making out that saying this is "vandalism"? - d. From christiaan at last-straw.net Thu Feb 24 18:16:00 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 18:16:00 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <35be2a7105022410057d29db30@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <421DD3DD.6030209@gmail.com> <8531a6dfc9c7201c5e2dfd2b57861f51@last-straw.net> <35be2a7105022410057d29db30@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <922a2fa2bd31e80382377d14208c9306@last-straw.net> Aphaia wrote: > On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:08:41 +0000, Christiaan Briggs > wrote: >> This is getting out of hand, now GerardM is resorting to vandalism: > > I don't think he did vandalism around on this issue. He had just a > different thought and idea of yours: what should be discussed, what > are related topics and so on. And it is not good in my humble opinion > to call someone who acted not in a way you would like to a "vandal". I > look here only the deferences of opinions and sad misunderstandings. > NO vandalism, I dare say. Though Gerald and I have different opinions > sometimes, in my views he has been on a good faith since I''ve known > him At best it was "disruption to make a point" > Christian, you requested for comments on this issue on EN WP. I thank > you for your request, "Two are better than one", but it were better > you would have done so before you stated Gerald made vandalism. BTW I > can't understand why you made your request on EN WP which only ENWP > issues would be resolve. If your concern is only related to EN WP, why > have you discussion on meta and foundation-l? (For your information > meta has also RfC to resolve comunity-wide disputes) It's not an > accusation but a pure question. Anyway I hope you will have sufficient > comments to resolve this issues, and all of you, to Christiaan, > Nicholas Knight and Gerald will be satisfied with the result at last. I couldn't find any processes on meta. Could you point me to RfC on meta? Christiaan From christiaan at last-straw.net Thu Feb 24 18:17:55 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 18:17:55 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <20050224180757.GI25721@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <421DD3DD.6030209@gmail.com> <8531a6dfc9c7201c5e2dfd2b57861f51@last-straw.net> <20050224180757.GI25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <556b648e89c5423ba716e9af7659404b@last-straw.net> David Gerard wrote: > That's not even close to vandalism by any reasonable definition. Wht > it has > done is concisely outline the actual situation that you appear not to > wish > to acknowledge in any way at all. At best it was "disruption to make a point". > What Gerard actually did with the above edit was take this paragraph: > > This page originated from a discussion on the WikiEN-I mailing list > where > some level of consensus was reached between the free-speech and > content > suppression parties that a technical solution is possible that will > go a > long way towards satisfying most mainstream positions in the debate. > > - and add the following text: > > However, it should be stressed that this page is ''not'' intended to > imply > that this is a fait accompli, but merely an initial > exploration of > the specification and feasibility of a possible solution. The > features > described below are ''not'' currently under development, and will > certainly > not be made live until their desirability has been firmly > established. > > Are you saying that this is false, and making out that saying this is > "vandalism"? Yes that is false, he did not add the second bit. Christiaan From christiaan at last-straw.net Thu Feb 24 18:23:38 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 18:23:38 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <556b648e89c5423ba716e9af7659404b@last-straw.net> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <421DD3DD.6030209@gmail.com> <8531a6dfc9c7201c5e2dfd2b57861f51@last-straw.net> <20050224180757.GI25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <556b648e89c5423ba716e9af7659404b@last-straw.net> Message-ID: <1665aa09c93c2fcd28eb5e5500373728@last-straw.net> By the way what he actually did was delete the whole page and replace it with: "Obviously you will revert this. This is just an demonstration what will happen if content is tagged to indicate material that is not to a censors liking." Christiaan On 24 Feb 2005, at 6:17 pm, Christiaan Briggs wrote: > David Gerard wrote: > >> That's not even close to vandalism by any reasonable definition. Wht >> it has >> done is concisely outline the actual situation that you appear not to >> wish >> to acknowledge in any way at all. > > At best it was "disruption to make a point". > >> What Gerard actually did with the above edit was take this paragraph: >> >> This page originated from a discussion on the WikiEN-I mailing list >> where >> some level of consensus was reached between the free-speech and >> content >> suppression parties that a technical solution is possible that will >> go a >> long way towards satisfying most mainstream positions in the debate. >> >> - and add the following text: >> >> However, it should be stressed that this page is ''not'' intended >> to imply >> that this is a fait accompli, but merely an initial >> exploration of >> the specification and feasibility of a possible solution. The >> features >> described below are ''not'' currently under development, and will >> certainly >> not be made live until their desirability has been firmly >> established. >> >> Are you saying that this is false, and making out that saying this is >> "vandalism"? > > Yes that is false, he did not add the second bit. > > Christiaan From rowan.collins at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 18:49:24 2005 From: rowan.collins at gmail.com (Rowan Collins) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 18:49:24 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <20050224180757.GI25721@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <421DD3DD.6030209@gmail.com> <8531a6dfc9c7201c5e2dfd2b57861f51@last-straw.net> <20050224180757.GI25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <9f02ca4c0502241049132b4f2b@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 05:07:57 +1100, David Gerard wrote: > What Gerard actually did with the above edit was take this paragraph: This is just a non-permanent diff links problem :) The edit in question was unquestionably vandalism. The edit you're looking at it is me trying to be helpful; the one Christiaan posted (or meant to) was a revert of blanking the whole page. For future reference, when pointing out vandalism always post: a) the diff were the vandalism took place; or b) the version with the vandalism in because links to "diff between current and last version" change as soon as there is a different "current" version. -- Rowan Collins BSc [IMSoP] From christiaan at last-straw.net Thu Feb 24 18:58:01 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 18:58:01 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <9f02ca4c0502241049132b4f2b@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <421DD3DD.6030209@gmail.com> <8531a6dfc9c7201c5e2dfd2b57861f51@last-straw.net> <20050224180757.GI25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <9f02ca4c0502241049132b4f2b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Oh, thanks, I thought I was going nuts for a second there! Christiaan On 24 Feb 2005, at 6:49 pm, Rowan Collins wrote: > On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 05:07:57 +1100, David Gerard > wrote: >> What Gerard actually did with the above edit was take this paragraph: > > > > This is just a non-permanent diff links problem :) The edit in > question was unquestionably vandalism. > The edit you're looking at it is me trying to be helpful; the one > Christiaan posted (or meant to) was a revert of blanking the whole > page. > > For future reference, when pointing out vandalism always post: > a) the diff were the vandalism took place; or > b) the version with the vandalism in > because links to "diff between current and last version" change as > soon as there is a different "current" version. > > -- > Rowan Collins BSc > [IMSoP] From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Thu Feb 24 19:44:59 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 06:44:59 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia Message-ID: <20050224194459.GJ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Christiaan Briggs christiaan at last-straw.net: :On 24 Feb 2005, at 6:49 pm, Rowan Collins wrote: :> On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 05:07:57 +1100, David Gerard :> wrote: :>> What Gerard actually did with the above edit was take this paragraph: :> This is just a non-permanent diff links problem :) The edit in :> question was unquestionably vandalism. :> The edit you're looking at it is me trying to be helpful; the one :> Christiaan posted (or meant to) was a revert of blanking the whole :> page. :Oh, thanks, I thought I was going nuts for a second there! You're right - looking at the history, that would be disrupting to make a point. This is probably not a helpful thing to do in a hot debate. Is the present version sufficient for you? It's pretty much OK by me. GerardM? - d. From gerard.meijssen at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 20:04:40 2005 From: gerard.meijssen at gmail.com (Gerard Meijssen) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 21:04:40 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <20050224194459.GJ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <20050224194459.GJ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <421E3358.5020803@gmail.com> David Gerard wrote: >Christiaan Briggs christiaan at last-straw.net: >:On 24 Feb 2005, at 6:49 pm, Rowan Collins wrote: >:> On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 05:07:57 +1100, David Gerard >:> wrote: > >:>> What Gerard actually did with the above edit was take this paragraph: > >:> This is just a non-permanent diff links problem :) The edit in >:> question was unquestionably vandalism. >:> The edit you're looking at it is me trying to be helpful; the one >:> Christiaan posted (or meant to) was a revert of blanking the whole >:> page. > >:Oh, thanks, I thought I was going nuts for a second there! > > >You're right - looking at the history, that would be disrupting to make a >point. This is probably not a helpful thing to do in a hot debate. > >Is the present version sufficient for you? It's pretty much OK by me. >GerardM? > > >- d. > Hoi, First of all, The current version is not sufficient. It does not address any of the concerns that I have about this thing. My point has been consistently been reverted and if it wasn't such an important issue I would have found it a rediculous issue. All the comments that I had added have been moved away and it now gives the impression that it is a squaky clean suggestion and that it is not controversial at all. Secondly, you state that it was vandalism. Fine, then what label does the manner that my contributions were treated with deserve ? This whole proposal is about introducing censorship into the wikimedia projects and it should be introduced into the Mediawiki software itself. Images are only to be used after carefull consideration. Default settings have to be found to prevent the public from seeing "offensive" material. What offensive material is, is not specified. It is denied that it has anything to do with censorship. The arguments about this are hiden in a discussion that was held on the en:wikipedia mailing list. All stuff that is in opposition to this proposal is moved away to a place that does not even discuss why this idea would be proper. Now you ask me if the current version is sufficient ? On a different subject. Angela has rightfully complained that this subject is not what the Foundation mailing list is for. This is the reason why I have stopped responding on this list. But as it has not stopped and I have been asked a direct question Thanks, No thanks ! Gerard From rowan.collins at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 20:22:59 2005 From: rowan.collins at gmail.com (Rowan Collins) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:22:59 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421E3358.5020803@gmail.com> References: <20050224194459.GJ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <421E3358.5020803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9f02ca4c05022412221a4d46b@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 21:04:40 +0100, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > Hoi, > First of all, The current version is not sufficient. It does not address > any of the concerns that I have about this thing. No, but it does state *why* it doesn't address them, and point to another page reserved specifically *for* addressing them. > This whole proposal is about introducing censorship into the wikimedia > projects and it should be introduced into the Mediawiki software itself. "...should be introduced"? I see only a discussion of how it *could* be implemented. That is what my extra sentence was trying to make clear. > [...] The arguments about this are > hiden in a discussion that was held on the en:wikipedia mailing list. > All stuff that is in opposition to this proposal is moved away to a > place that does not even discuss why this idea would be proper. Your second sentence contradicts your first (they're not hidden away, they've been moved to a page you're not satisfied with). *So use that place to discuss those issues.* Christiaan et al have stated that the particular page in question is not intended to cover those issues, and I don't think the fact that one debate is separated into 2 pages, each covering a well-defined aspect, is "hiding" or "denying" anything; it's separating it. Clearly, both sides have strong opinions on this, but if people want to explore the technical possibilities *at the same time as* the desirability, then who are you to stop them? The statement I added, making clear that this was *not* a "fait accompli", and was *not* actively in development, and would *not* be carried through without discussion of its desirability, seems to be approved by the authors/backers of that page, and so presumably reflects their own claim. Do you not believe them? Because if you *do* believe them, then you should be able to carry on making the case for the undesirability, and ignore their technical musings in the hope [or, indeed, belief] that such will have been a waste of time once you have presented a well-argued and coherent case why it would be a bad idea to try. > On a different subject. Angela has rightfully complained that this > subject is not what the Foundation mailing list is for. Yes, apologies to those who are annoyed by this traffic; moving threads to a better forum is not something that mailing lists are good at. :( In fact, I should probably have refrained from being drawn so far into this debate anyway... -- Rowan Collins BSc [IMSoP] From gerard.meijssen at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 20:46:38 2005 From: gerard.meijssen at gmail.com (Gerard Meijssen) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 21:46:38 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <9f02ca4c05022412221a4d46b@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050224194459.GJ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <421E3358.5020803@gmail.com> <9f02ca4c05022412221a4d46b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <421E3D2E.5020601@gmail.com> Rowan Collins wrote: >On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 21:04:40 +0100, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > > >>Hoi, >>First of all, The current version is not sufficient. It does not address >>any of the concerns that I have about this thing. >> >> > >No, but it does state *why* it doesn't address them, and point to >another page reserved specifically *for* addressing them. > > Which is where they do not justify their own proposal. So in essence it is just a move to rid themselves of what they see as off topic. > > >>This whole proposal is about introducing censorship into the wikimedia >>projects and it should be introduced into the Mediawiki software itself. >> >> > >"...should be introduced"? I see only a discussion of how it *could* >be implemented. That is what my extra sentence was trying to make >clear. > > > My mistake, it is not my mother language :) >>[...] The arguments about this are >>hiden in a discussion that was held on the en:wikipedia mailing list. >>All stuff that is in opposition to this proposal is moved away to a >>place that does not even discuss why this idea would be proper. >> >> > >Your second sentence contradicts your first (they're not hidden away, >they've been moved to a page you're not satisfied with). *So use that >place to discuss those issues.* Christiaan et al have stated that the >particular page in question is not intended to cover those issues, and >I don't think the fact that one debate is separated into 2 pages, each >covering a well-defined aspect, is "hiding" or "denying" anything; >it's separating it. > > The discussion was moved from the talk page. It is now out of contex as the stuff it reacts to is not there. The argument is, that this reflects what was discussed on the en:wikipedia mailing list. They have not given the arguments in there and use it as justification for their proposal for this censoring mechanism. >Clearly, both sides have strong opinions on this, but if people want >to explore the technical possibilities *at the same time as* the >desirability, then who are you to stop them? > >The statement I added, making clear that this was *not* a "fait >accompli", and was *not* actively in development, and would *not* be >carried through without discussion of its desirability, seems to be >approved by the authors/backers of that page, and so presumably >reflects their own claim. > >Do you not believe them? Because if you *do* believe them, then you >should be able to carry on making the case for the undesirability, and >ignore their technical musings in the hope [or, indeed, belief] that >such will have been a waste of time once you have presented a >well-argued and coherent case why it would be a bad idea to try. > What is there to believe. I can believe that they assume that this will be all the censorship we will have. I do believe that this is the beginning of the end of a free encyclopeida that aims tp contain all knowledge. They will say that this is a straw mans argument. :( So what is there but frustration. Frustration for seeing that censorship is being pushed. The worst thing is that I can see them get this censorship thing into Mediawiki because there is always someone capable and willing of coding this. Thanks, No thanks ! GerardM From maveric149 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 24 21:12:52 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:12:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 6 Fund Drive Report In-Reply-To: <20050223204308.55412.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050224211253.26974.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> On Day 6 (Wednesday 23 February eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not available in UTC) we made $5,197.09 (USD equivalent) through a combination of PayPal (completed payments only) and mail donations (no updates available for other sources at this time). This is a decrease of 22.48% from Day 5 and represents 11.16% of total funds collected so far ($46,474.53 ; only counting full days) and 6.93% of our goal ($75,000). At the end of Day 6 we had reached 62.07% of our goal. We were continuing to have server issues on Day 6. See http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/February_2005_server_crash for details (if you can access that page) Day 6 Day 5 comparison Breakdown: PayPal USD equiv USD equiv %change AUD 60.71 $47.99 $33.37 43.79% CAD 173.29 $140.42 $232.80 -39.68% EUR 1143.72 $1,495.07 $2,553.09 -41.44% GBP 447.17 $848.64 $595.47 42.52% JPY 19582 $185.62 $130.73 41.98% USD 2404.35 $2,404.35 $3,158.91 -23.89% PayPal total: $5,122.09 $6,704.38 -23.60% MoneyBookers no data no data -na- Mail/Post $75.00 no data 100.00% TOTAL $5,197.09 $6,704.38 -22.48% Grand totals so far (only counting complete days) PayPal USD equiv %GrandTotal AUD 1257.71 $994.22 2.14% CAD 2145.86 $1,738.79 3.74% EUR 12487.24 $16,323.32 35.07% GBP 2398.41 $4,551.70 9.78% JPY 123678 $1,172.34 2.52% USD 21267.46 $21,267.46 45.69% PayPal total: $46,047.84 Moneybookers: $426.69 0.92% Mail/Post $75.00 0.16% GRAND TOTAL $46,549.53 100.00% % toward goal 62.07% For the most recent grand total and other details visit http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 Some selected comments from Day 6: See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_6 "power to the pedia!" by Anonymous "Super Site!" by Urs Schwerzmann "A most delightful time waster!" by Shreesh Taskar "Que viva la educacion gratuita" by Dennis Salcedo "My first stop when I want to get started on a new topic." by Joel Gilmore "I use wiki's nearly every day, thank you for your service hopefully my small contribution will increase when i get out of college! :)" by Anonymous "Symbolic gesture of appreciation. Wikipedia is important." by Thomas Herzog "Thanks for all the hard work everyone has put into this project." by Steven Schulz "After learning so much from your site, I owe you at least this. (Woooo! Cheaper than college!)" by Anonymous "What a great idea. Probably the most useful site on the Internet for a poor college student like me." by David Klorig "For the fundraiser; Get better response times, please!" by David Barbour Some of my favorites: "Wisdom of the Crowds rules the Long Tail" by Anonymous "Once in a lifetime someone comes up with a great idea that improves the democracy of ideas (PI)" by Anonymous "A better world is possible -- and this is an example of that better world" by grupoHuracan Corporation "If you believe, like me, that this sort of thing is the future, then you are obligated to contribute. I am happy to do so." by Anonymous "wikipedia has saved my ass more times than id like to admit" by Louise Noble "Where would the world be without Wikimedia?" by Emily Baker "The Bear wishes you well" by Anonymous "thanks for wikipedia. the revolution will be wikified." by Jeremy Friedman "Bravo" by Anonymous Oh, and: "Can I make it to mav's favorites? ;-)" by Anonymous (well, almost :) Daniel Mayer, Wikimedia CFO __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From christiaan at last-straw.net Thu Feb 24 21:13:22 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 21:13:22 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421E3D2E.5020601@gmail.com> References: <20050224194459.GJ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <421E3358.5020803@gmail.com> <9f02ca4c05022412221a4d46b@mail.gmail.com> <421E3D2E.5020601@gmail.com> Message-ID: Gerard Meijssen wrote: > Rowan Collins wrote: > >> Gerard Meijssen wrote: >> >>> Hoi, >>> First of all, The current version is not sufficient. It does not >>> address any of the concerns that I have about this thing. >> >> No, but it does state *why* it doesn't address them, and point to >> another page reserved specifically *for* addressing them. >> > Which is where they do not justify their own proposal. So in essence > it is just a move to rid themselves of what they see as off topic. I would suggest a little patience Gerard. I hope to post some pros and cons in the next couple of days. I've spent a lot of my time dealing with vandalism etc., so you'll have to excuse me for not having the time for more constructive things. Christiaan From maveric149 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 24 21:54:51 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:54:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 6 Fund Drive Report (minor error) In-Reply-To: <20050224211253.26974.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050224215451.44347.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> Minor error (not worth a full repost) In the second paragraph I mistakingly gave the grand total minus mail donations. That figure should be $46,549.53 *not* $46,474.53 -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball. http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/ From maveric149 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 25 23:04:03 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:04:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 6 Fund Drive Report In-Reply-To: <20050224211253.26974.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050225230403.9081.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> On Day 7 (Thursday 24 February eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not available in UTC) we made $$5,421.02 (USD equivalent) through a combination of PayPal (completed payments only) and mail donations (no updates available for other sources at this time). This is a decrease of 5.84% from Day 6 and represents 10.43% of total funds collected so far ($51,970.55 ; only counting full days) and 7.23% of our goal ($75,000). At the end of Day 6 we had reached 69.29% of our goal. For information on our recent server issues see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/February_2005_server_crash Day 7 Day 6 comparison Breakdown: PayPal USD equiv USD equiv %change AUD 76.00 $60.08 $47.99 25.19% CAD 320.73 $259.89 $140.42 85.08% EUR 1045.41 $1,366.56 $1,495.07 -8.60% GBP 353.22 $670.34 $848.64 -21.01% JPY 10455 $99.10 $185.62 -46.61% USD 2670.05 $2,670.05 $2,404.35 11.05% PayPal total: $5,126.02 $5,122.09 0.08% MoneyBookers no data $0.00 0.00% Mail/Post $295.00 $75.00 293.33% TOTAL $5,421.02 $5,122.09 5.84% Grand totals so far (only counting complete days) PayPal USD equiv %GrandTotal AUD 1333.71 $1,054.30 2.03% CAD 2466.59 $1,998.68 3.85% EUR 13532.65 $17,689.88 34.04% GBP 2751.63 $5,222.04 10.05% JPY 134133 $1,271.45 2.45% USD 23937.51 $23,937.51 46.06% PayPal total: $51,173.86 Moneybookers: $426.69 0.82% Mail/Post $370.00 0.71% GRAND TOTAL $51,970.55 100.00% % toward goal 69.29% For the most recent grand total and other details visit http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 Some selected comments from Day 7: See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_7 "To prevent commercialization of knowledge" by Anonymous "Great site: my favourite and most visited since using the internet!" by Andrew O'Callaghan "this site embodies the progressive possibilities of the internet" by Anonymous "The best purpose for donation I can think of." by Anonymous "Keep up the good work! It will forces the other encyclopedies to evolve: and the user will get a double benefit: a good wikipedia, and better Encarta and others encyclopedies..." by Anonymous "This is the first time I have donated on line. You should be very proud of what you have created." by Anonymous "Wikimedia, a terrific open source project of knowledge" by Alexander Orlov "here's to FDLing all the knowledge in da universe! keep up the good work :-)" by Anonymous "detailed relevant answsers to my off the cuff technical questions. thank you." by David McMillan "Pour une encyclopedie si utile." by Gabriel D. Matthews "Long Live Freedom" by Anonymous "Astonishingly useful!" by Navarro Parker Some of my favorites: "I love philanthropy" by Anonymous "Because I owe Dysprosia 5$" by Jonathan Cary "This is Harry donating to Wikimedia. I come here everyday and I think that it is important to support this foundation." by Robert Gilbert "Testing paypal script, more donations to come, I promise!" x 3 by Michael Becker "Wikipedia helps me drop clue bombs on people." by Michael Styne "I love the sound of the click as I point my wallet at worthy causes." by Jeremy Smith "Onwards and upwards!" by Yuri Astrakhan Daniel Mayer, Wikimedia CFO __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From maveric149 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 25 23:05:25 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:05:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 7 Fund Drive Report In-Reply-To: <20050224211253.26974.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050225230525.98116.qmail@web51601.mail.yahoo.com> On Day 7 (Thursday 24 February eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not available in UTC) we made $$5,421.02 (USD equivalent) through a combination of PayPal (completed payments only) and mail donations (no updates available for other sources at this time). This is a decrease of 5.84% from Day 6 and represents 10.43% of total funds collected so far ($51,970.55 ; only counting full days) and 7.23% of our goal ($75,000). At the end of Day 6 we had reached 69.29% of our goal. For information on our recent server issues see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/February_2005_server_crash Day 7 Day 6 comparison Breakdown: PayPal USD equiv USD equiv %change AUD 76.00 $60.08 $47.99 25.19% CAD 320.73 $259.89 $140.42 85.08% EUR 1045.41 $1,366.56 $1,495.07 -8.60% GBP 353.22 $670.34 $848.64 -21.01% JPY 10455 $99.10 $185.62 -46.61% USD 2670.05 $2,670.05 $2,404.35 11.05% PayPal total: $5,126.02 $5,122.09 0.08% MoneyBookers no data $0.00 0.00% Mail/Post $295.00 $75.00 293.33% TOTAL $5,421.02 $5,122.09 5.84% Grand totals so far (only counting complete days) PayPal USD equiv %GrandTotal AUD 1333.71 $1,054.30 2.03% CAD 2466.59 $1,998.68 3.85% EUR 13532.65 $17,689.88 34.04% GBP 2751.63 $5,222.04 10.05% JPY 134133 $1,271.45 2.45% USD 23937.51 $23,937.51 46.06% PayPal total: $51,173.86 Moneybookers: $426.69 0.82% Mail/Post $370.00 0.71% GRAND TOTAL $51,970.55 100.00% % toward goal 69.29% For the most recent grand total and other details visit http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 Some selected comments from Day 7: See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_7 "To prevent commercialization of knowledge" by Anonymous "Great site: my favourite and most visited since using the internet!" by Andrew O'Callaghan "this site embodies the progressive possibilities of the internet" by Anonymous "The best purpose for donation I can think of." by Anonymous "Keep up the good work! It will forces the other encyclopedies to evolve: and the user will get a double benefit: a good wikipedia, and better Encarta and others encyclopedies..." by Anonymous "This is the first time I have donated on line. You should be very proud of what you have created." by Anonymous "Wikimedia, a terrific open source project of knowledge" by Alexander Orlov "here's to FDLing all the knowledge in da universe! keep up the good work :-)" by Anonymous "detailed relevant answsers to my off the cuff technical questions. thank you." by David McMillan "Pour une encyclopedie si utile." by Gabriel D. Matthews "Long Live Freedom" by Anonymous "Astonishingly useful!" by Navarro Parker Some of my favorites: "I love philanthropy" by Anonymous "Because I owe Dysprosia 5$" by Jonathan Cary "This is Harry donating to Wikimedia. I come here everyday and I think that it is important to support this foundation." by Robert Gilbert "Testing paypal script, more donations to come, I promise!" x 3 by Michael Becker "Wikipedia helps me drop clue bombs on people." by Michael Styne "I love the sound of the click as I point my wallet at worthy causes." by Jeremy Smith "Onwards and upwards!" by Yuri Astrakhan Daniel Mayer, Wikimedia CFO __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From maveric149 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 25 23:20:58 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:20:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: opps (was: Re: [Foundation-l] Day 6 Fund Drive Report ) In-Reply-To: <20050225230403.9081.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050225232058.95335.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> That subject line obviously should read 'Day 7 Fund Report'. Sorry folks! -- mav --- Daniel Mayer wrote: > On Day 7 (Thursday 24 February eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not > available in UTC) we made $$5,421.02 (USD equivalent) through a combination > of > PayPal (completed payments only) and mail donations (no updates available for > other sources at this time). > > This is a decrease of 5.84% from Day 6 and represents 10.43% of total funds > collected so far ($51,970.55 ; only counting full days) and 7.23% of our goal > ($75,000). At the end of Day 6 we had reached 69.29% of our goal. > > For information on our recent server issues see > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/February_2005_server_crash > > Day 7 Day 6 comparison > Breakdown: > PayPal USD equiv USD equiv %change > AUD 76.00 $60.08 $47.99 25.19% > CAD 320.73 $259.89 $140.42 85.08% > EUR 1045.41 $1,366.56 $1,495.07 -8.60% > GBP 353.22 $670.34 $848.64 -21.01% > JPY 10455 $99.10 $185.62 -46.61% > USD 2670.05 $2,670.05 $2,404.35 11.05% > PayPal total: $5,126.02 $5,122.09 0.08% > > > MoneyBookers no data $0.00 0.00% > Mail/Post $295.00 $75.00 293.33% > > TOTAL $5,421.02 $5,122.09 5.84% > > > Grand totals so far (only counting complete days) > > PayPal USD equiv %GrandTotal > AUD 1333.71 $1,054.30 2.03% > CAD 2466.59 $1,998.68 3.85% > EUR 13532.65 $17,689.88 34.04% > GBP 2751.63 $5,222.04 10.05% > JPY 134133 $1,271.45 2.45% > USD 23937.51 $23,937.51 46.06% > PayPal total: $51,173.86 > > > Moneybookers: $426.69 0.82% > Mail/Post $370.00 0.71% > > GRAND TOTAL $51,970.55 100.00% > > % toward goal 69.29% > > For the most recent grand total and other details visit > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 > > Some selected comments from Day 7: > See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_7 > > "To prevent commercialization of knowledge" by Anonymous > > "Great site: my favourite and most visited since using the internet!" by > Andrew > O'Callaghan > > "this site embodies the progressive possibilities of the internet" by > Anonymous > > "The best purpose for donation I can think of." by Anonymous > > "Keep up the good work! It will forces the other encyclopedies to evolve: and > the user will get a double benefit: a good wikipedia, and better Encarta and > others encyclopedies..." by Anonymous > > "This is the first time I have donated on line. You should be very proud of > what you have created." by Anonymous > > "Wikimedia, a terrific open source project of knowledge" by Alexander Orlov > > "here's to FDLing all the knowledge in da universe! keep up the good work > :-)" > by Anonymous > > "detailed relevant answsers to my off the cuff technical questions. thank > you." > by David McMillan > > "Pour une encyclopedie si utile." by Gabriel D. Matthews > > "Long Live Freedom" by Anonymous > > "Astonishingly useful!" by Navarro Parker > > Some of my favorites: > > "I love philanthropy" by Anonymous > > "Because I owe Dysprosia 5$" by Jonathan Cary > > "This is Harry donating to Wikimedia. I come here everyday and I think that > it > is important to support this foundation." by Robert Gilbert > > "Testing paypal script, more donations to come, I promise!" x 3 by Michael > Becker > > "Wikipedia helps me drop clue bombs on people." by Michael Styne > > "I love the sound of the click as I point my wallet at worthy causes." by > Jeremy Smith > > "Onwards and upwards!" by Yuri Astrakhan > > > Daniel Mayer, > Wikimedia CFO > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From erik_moeller at gmx.de Sat Feb 26 11:17:53 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 12:17:53 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikinews: New State of the Wiki report Message-ID: <42205AE1.7050705@gmx.de> I've written a new, detailed report on the current state of the Wikinews project. If you haven't kept up, or want to read my opinions on where we are headed, the report is at: http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/User:Eloquence/State_of_the_Wiki Comments are welcome. All best, Erik From kissall at gmail.com Sat Feb 26 19:32:43 2005 From: kissall at gmail.com (Kiss All) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:32:43 -0600 Subject: [Foundation-l] Do we have server monitors for wikipedia machines? Message-ID: <384f6ad4050226113245417633@mail.gmail.com> I consistently have trouble to access http://en.wikipedia.org today, though I can slowly access http://wikipedia.org/ and http://zh.wikipedia.org/. What is the problem? Do we have server monitors for those machines? If not, I suggest to use some third party service to monitor the server's uptime and performance, like http://www.siteuptime.com or http://www.elkmonitor.com/. I guess there are some free service provider available. We need to insure the uptime for major server, otherwise, we are going to lose users. -- Be good.... From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 26 22:12:29 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 14:12:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 8 Fund Drive Report In-Reply-To: <20050225230525.98116.qmail@web51601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050226221229.11958.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> On Day 8 (Friday 25 February eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not available in UTC) we made $3,735.10 (USD equivalent) through PayPal (completed payments only; no updates available for other sources at this time). This is a decrease of 27.13% from Day 7 and represents 6.71% of total funds collected so far ($55,705.64 ; only counting full days) and 4.98% of our goal ($75,000). At the end of Day 8 we had reached 74.27% of our goal. For information on our recent server issues see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/February_2005_server_crash Day 8 Day 7 comparison Breakdown: PayPal USD equiv USD equiv %change AUD 94.09 $74.38 $60.08 23.80% CAD 221.44 $179.43 $259.89 -30.96% EUR 729.52 $953.63 $1,366.56 -30.22% GBP 123.32 $234.04 $670.34 -65.09% JPY 3780 $35.83 $99.10 -63.85% USD 2257.79 $2,257.79 $2,670.05 -15.44% PayPal total: $3,735.10 $5,126.02 -27.13% MoneyBookers no data $0.00 0.00% Mail/Post no data $295.00 -100.00% TOTAL $3,735.10 $5,126.02 -27.13% Grand totals so far (only counting complete days) PayPal USD equiv %GrandTotal AUD 1427.80 $1,128.68 2.03% CAD 2688.03 $2,178.11 3.91% EUR 14262.17 $18,643.51 33.47% GBP 2874.95 $5,456.08 9.79% JPY 137913 $1,307.28 2.35% USD 26195.30 $26,195.30 47.02% PayPal total: $54,908.95 Moneybookers: $426.69 0.77% Mail/Post $370.00 0.66% GRAND TOTAL $55,705.64 100.00% % toward goal 74.27% For the most recent grand total and other details visit http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 Some selected comments from Day 8: See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_8 "You guys are fantastic! Keep up the good work" by World of Worlds "Wikipedia is a great info source, but it needs more bandwidth!" by David Chipman "A great site! My kids love it and use it often" by Anonymous "Pour un savoir commun, libre et gratuit." by Anonymous "I am an information addict because of you wikipedia. I love you." by Anonymous "La informacion quiere ser libre" by Paredes Olay Francisco Javier "Small price to pay to keep knowledge free... and reduce my cynicism!" by Anonymous "I am so grateful for your wonderful site." by Anonymous "Wikimedia is doing GREAT things, I'm proud to support them." by Jeff Moats "weiter so !" by Anonymous "I really enjoy using your site. As an educator it is a excellent resource and use it all the time." by Howard Sims "We love Wikipedia! Thank you for making knowledge so accessible!" by John Noe "You are the best!" by Rodrigo Ventura "vive le libre =)" by Le bisou Some of my favorites: "Without doubt this is one of the few sites that make the internet worthwhile." by Nicholas Penney "Wikimedia is the epitome of what the Internet should be: For the public, By the public." by Ezra Pincus-Roth "Wikipedia is the best source of quality information I have ever found in my extensive use of the Internet. My gratitude to everyone's contributions to the content that makes this a wonderful success." by Anonymous "you keep it free and unbiased and i'll be contributing double every drive." by Anonymous "This is the future." by David Altman "Go baby go, go!" by Anonymous Daniel Mayer, Wikimedia CFO __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From yann at forget-me.net Sun Feb 27 14:07:01 2005 From: yann at forget-me.net (Yann Forget) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 15:07:01 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [Wikimediafr-l] donations Message-ID: <200502271507.02130.yann@forget-me.net> Hi, Can someone answer him ? Subject: [Wikimediafr-l] donations Date: Sunday 27 February 2005 06:49 From: Dean Rivando To: wikimediafr-l at wikimedia.org Hi there, I would like to donate, but I will only do so if I receive a tax credit in Canada. Can you please advise me whether you have charitable status with the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency and whether donations made in Canada are tax deductible. thanks, Dean Rivando -- http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 27 15:27:28 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 07:27:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [Wikimediafr-l] donations In-Reply-To: <200502271507.02130.yann@forget-me.net> Message-ID: <20050227152728.73410.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> > Subject: [Wikimediafr-l] donations > Date: Sunday 27 February 2005 06:49 > From: Dean Rivando > To: wikimediafr-l at wikimedia.org > > I would like to donate, but I will only do so if I receive a tax credit in > Canada. Can you please advise me whether you have charitable status with > the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency and whether donations made in Canada > are tax deductible. While we are almost certainly are about to get tax exempt status in the United States we have not yet explored that possibility for other nations. This may require the formation of a Wikimedia chapter in Canada but we have not yet looked into this. Rest assured that once we have tax exempt status in the United States we will explore ways to directly gain similar status in other nations where possible and encourage the creation of national chapters where not. -- Daniel Mayer __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball. http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/ From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 27 20:30:03 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:30:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 9 Fund Drive Report In-Reply-To: <20050226221229.11958.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050227203003.42098.qmail@web51609.mail.yahoo.com> On Day 9 (Saturday 26 February eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not available in UTC) we made $5,869.19 (USD equivalent) through PayPal (completed payments only; no updates available for other sources at this time). This is an increase of 57.14% from Day 8 and represents 10.54% of total funds collected so far ($61,574.83 ; only counting full days) and 7.83% of our goal ($75,000). At the end of Day 9 we had reached 82.10% of our goal. Day 9 Day 8 comparison Breakdown: PayPal USD equiv USD equiv %change AUD 191.00 $150.99 $74.38 103.00% CAD 268.97 $217.95 $179.43 21.46% EUR 1149.90 $1,503.15 $953.63 57.62% GBP 475.11 $901.66 $234.04 285.27% JPY 16245 $153.99 $35.83 329.76% USD 2941.46 $2,941.46 $2,257.79 30.28% PayPal total: $5,869.19 $3,735.10 57.14% MoneyBookers no data $0.00 0.00% Mail/Post no data $0.00 0.00% TOTAL $5,869.19 $3,735.10 57.14% Grand totals so far (only counting complete days) PayPal USD equiv %GrandTotal AUD 1618.80 $1,279.66 2.08% CAD 2957.00 $2,396.06 3.89% EUR 15412.07 $20,146.66 32.72% GBP 3350.06 $6,357.74 10.33% JPY 154158.00 $1,461.26 2.37% USD 29136.76 $29,136.76 47.32% PayPal total: $60,778.14 Moneybookers: $426.69 0.69% Mail/Post $370.00 0.60% GRAND TOTAL $61,574.83 100.00% % toward goal 82.10% For the most recent grand total and other details visit http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 Some selected comments from Day 9: See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_9 "Very handy resource, keep up the great work." by Anonymous "Gladly support the Great Wikipedia Project" by Grant Slater "I teach history and geography and use Wikipedia weekly. Excellent, easy to access source of information." by Tom Gleason "Viva la information revolution!" by Anonymous "Great public project. Everyone should contribute financially and with their editing efforts" by Bernard Farrell "Das ist echte Wissens-Allmende!" by Adolf J Winterer "Wikipedia is an invaluable research tool." by Anonymous "Nothing compares to Wikipedia. It's the greatest informer." by Niels Buus "A shining example of what the net is really all about." by William Finley "MY COLLEGE STUDENTS DEPEND ON WIKIPEDIA; I so appreciate its well researched articles on musical genres, especially" by Anonymous "Keep it free & non-biased high quality!" by Anonymous "I sent $1200 during your last fundraising drive. Here's $50 more for good measure. Enjoy, and keep up the good work! Thanks, -David" by Anonymous "By the people for the people" by Andrew Black Some of my favorites: "because freedom isn't free" by Anonymous "De omni re scibili et quibusdam aliis." by Berteun Damman "Love the site, hope you reach your goal easily and then some" by Mark Bullard Jr "Keep it Going. the records of the passage of time and events are no less important than food and drink." by Zia imaging "Oh all the services out there on the internet, I think this is one of the most deserving of support. Thanks, very much!" by Michael Bierschenk "...Wikipedia has already supplanted the great Encyclopedia Galactica as the standard repository of all knowledge and wisdom..." (with apologies to Douglas Adams)" by Christopher Allen "Ciao" by Anonymous Daniel Mayer, Wikimedia CFO __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball. http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/ From saintonge at telus.net Sun Feb 27 21:53:20 2005 From: saintonge at telus.net (Ray Saintonge) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 13:53:20 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [Wikimediafr-l] donations In-Reply-To: <200502271507.02130.yann@forget-me.net> References: <200502271507.02130.yann@forget-me.net> Message-ID: <42224150.20907@telus.net> Yann Forget wrote: >Hi, > >Can someone answer him ? > >From: Dean Rivando > >Hi there, > >I would like to donate, but I will only do so if I receive a tax credit in > Canada. Can you please advise me whether you have charitable status with the > Canada Customs and Revenue Agency and whether donations made in Canada are > tax deductible. > This is not available, and it could be a long while before it is. Canadian tax relief for foreign donations applies only in limited circumstances. One of those might be if you have US source income. For practical purposes getting tax relief in Canada depends on having an organization that is registered as a charity in Canada. Part of the application process includes submitting a recent financial statements, and that can't be done until there's an organization. Once the organization is registered the donated funds must be used to support Canadian operations. There are circumstances where a Canadian structiore would be beneficial, but an organization would be needed first, and I haven't seen much interest expressed in that. Ec From anthere9 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 28 02:05:53 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 03:05:53 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Day 1 Fund Drive Report References: <20050218191814.31540.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> <20050219094346.58768.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> <453b6e505021908173a4f567d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42227C81.7060607@yahoo.com> It would be nice if a compendium is made at the end of the fund drive, with collection of many languages. We could host that on foundation wiki. Could editors from various languages isolate the best quotes ? Anthere notafish a ?crit: > Little international addition to the interesting quotes ;-) > > No des pescado: ense?a a pescar. by Alberto Gaona > "Don't give fish, teach how to fish." > > Bravo ? cette formidable initiative pour d?mocratiser la connaissance > ! by Guillaume Lasnier > "Bravo to this wonderful initiative destined to democratize knowledge!" > > Wissen ist die Waffe der Gewaltlosigkeit. by Arnim Faryn > "Knowledge is the weapon of non-violence." > > and my favorite ones ;-) > > Bon j'irais pas au restau aujourd'hui ;o). by Fabrice Terrasson > "Ok, I won't go to the restaurant today ;o)" > > > Is there really a 200 character max? really? really? really? really? > really? really? really? really? really? really? really? really? > really? really? really? really? really? really? really? really? ok by > anonymous. > > > On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 01:43:46 -0800 (PST), Daniel Mayer > wrote: > >>On Day 1 (Friday eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not available in >>UTC) we made $9,939.47 (USD equivalent) through a combination of PayPal and >>MoneyBookers. >> >>PayPal breakdown: >>AUD 314.03 (247.27 USD) >>CAD 334.40 (271.58 USD) >>EUR 3413.75 (4464.75 USD) >>GBP 475.17 (899.77 USD) >>JPY 28340 (269 USD) >>USD 3424.63 >>Total 9576.78 (USD equivalent) >> >>Moneybookers: >>$362.69 (USD equivalent) >> >>For the most recent grand total and other details visit >>http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 >> >>Some selected comments from Day 1: >>See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_1 >> >>"Knowledge isn't a possession - it cannot be monopolized." by Robert K Bell >> >>"You guys rock!!" by Anonymous >> >>"Fantastic system - best of luck from a Random Page addict" " by Steve Agland >> >>"Wikipedia is Hope" by Anonymous >> >>"Ignorance breeds fear, use information to gain knowledge and empower yourself >>with Peace" by Anonymous >> >>"Wikipedia is a splendid way of sharing information. Lets do this!" by >>Anonymous >> >>"You guys do a fantastic job!!!" by Guoming Sun >> >>"You have helped me in college and in life. I don't have much money, and I've >>never given a donation. But if any cause is worthy, it is your own. Thank you" >>by Ryan Lewis >> >>"Wikipedia, is there anything it can't do?" by Anonymous >> >>"If you read this note, donate!" by Anonymous >> >>"It's Not Much But Every Individual's Contribution Counts! What The Wiki Is All >>About!" by Anonymous >> >>And my personal favorites: >> >>"For not deleting at least some articles" by Vladimir Mozhenkov >> >>"Wikipedia: Destroyer of productivity; love of my life." by Anonymous >> >>"bonk" by Anonymous >> > From maveric149 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 28 04:27:10 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 20:27:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Day 1 Fund Drive Report In-Reply-To: <42227C81.7060607@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050228042711.78111.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Anthere wrote: > It would be nice if a compendium is made at the end of the fund drive, > with collection of many languages. > > We could host that on foundation wiki. Yes - that would be neat. I'd also like to conduct a survey to see why people donated, why they didn't, and what can be improved for the next fund drive. -- mav __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chris_mahan at yahoo.com Mon Feb 28 20:03:19 2005 From: chris_mahan at yahoo.com (Christopher Mahan) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:03:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [Wikimediafr-l] donations In-Reply-To: <200502271507.02130.yann@forget-me.net> Message-ID: <20050228200320.6074.qmail@web14022.mail.yahoo.com> > From: Dean Rivando > > Hi there, > > I would like to donate, but I will only do so if I receive a tax > credit in > Canada. Can you please advise me whether you have charitable > status with the > Canada Customs and Revenue Agency and whether donations made in > Canada are > tax deductible. Dean, give less. Use the difference to pay the tax. Tax in your country is useful to help pay for infrastructure, defense, and healthcare. Say you wanted to give CAN$50. Give 40, use the other 10 to pay for the tax. For you it's the same (still spending 50) and for wikipedia it's better (40 instead of 0) :) ===== Chris Mahan 818.943.1850 cell chris_mahan at yahoo.com chris.mahan at gmail.com http://www.christophermahan.com/ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From maveric149 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 02:04:11 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 18:04:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up In-Reply-To: <41FE8643.9030803@gmx.de> Message-ID: <20050201020411.5368.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Erik Moeller wrote: > Sure, but if Anthere complains about my bold actions regularly, that > just means that everything is normal. She is by far not the only one complaining. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From maveric149 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 02:25:54 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 18:25:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up In-Reply-To: <41FD630C.4010305@gmx.de> Message-ID: <20050201022554.51150.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> --- Erik Moeller wrote: > I disagree. The work being done on Wikinews is, as I have already > explained before and as is also described in the Wikinews FAQ, very > different from the work done on Wikipedia: in-detail coverage of > individual events rather than summary-style overviews of a series of > events. To give you an example, one of the first French Wikinews > articles is this one about polling stations in Paris for the current > Iraqi elections: And that is a best case scenario. But one of the most cited reasons why *Wikipedia* is so great is the fact that it is kept up-to-date. The same type of person who is interested in current events is in the same pool of people who would likely contribute to Wikinews. These are news junkies. If *any* particular Wikipedia doesn't have enough contributors in this area, then drawing upon that limited pool is going to do some harm. You cited a Wikipedia regular as the author of this article. That's great but the time it took to write and research that single story could have been spent updating perhaps a half dozen existing Wikipedia articles. In this particular case I think those edits will very likely be accomplished by other people rather quickly. But if a great many news junkies are drawn away from the encyclopedia, then this is going to have a negative effect on keeping the encyclopedia up to date. I'm certain that this is not an issue for English and German but beyond that I'm not so sure. > Because it is different, Wikinews attracts different contributors than > Wikipedia. Your one example was of a Wikipedian creating a Wikinews story. > We're not in a position to tell people what they should and shouldn't be > doing. We should give people the option to work on Wikinews if they want > to. And you are not in a position to go against the will of any wiki user community. > The only thing your proposed requirement would accomplish is pissing > off volunteers who are ready to put time and energy into a worthwhile > project. You have already managed to piss a great many people on the French Wikipedia off. They *do* most certainly have a say - as do all language communities - whether or not they are ready for another project. It is up to them, NOT YOU. -- mav __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From erik_moeller at gmx.de Tue Feb 1 03:58:21 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 04:58:21 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up In-Reply-To: <20050201022554.51150.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050201022554.51150.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41FEFE5D.6050207@gmx.de> Daniel Mayer schrieb: >And that is a best case scenario. But one of the most cited reasons why >*Wikipedia* is so great is the fact that it is kept up-to-date. The same type >of person who is interested in current events is in the same pool of people who >would likely contribute to Wikinews. > Nope. The work of writing a news story from scratch is very different from just summarizing what's going on. It is a very specific contributor profile which, as the history of the English Wikinews has shown, is hard to find among Wikipedians. You are just equating the groups because it suits your argument without any empirical evidence to back it up. Let's look at who actually edits the Current Events on en. This is a unique list of contributors from the second half of October 2004, before Wikinews was active: Admbws Ahoerstemeier Alan Liefting Ambi Ancheta Wis Andrejj Anonymous Cow AntonioMartin Arwel Parry Avaragado Bob rulz Bogdangiusca Bontenbal CanisRufus Chrism ChrisO Ctrl build Danny Davidcannon David Gerard David Newton Dejitarob Dobrien Ed Cormany Ed Poor Eean Eewing Elf Enceladus Evercat Evil saltine Frazzydee Fred Bauder Gadfium Get-back-world-respect Golbez Grunt Harris7 Hooverbag Infrogmation Irishpunktom Irismeister JB82 JBradHicks Jewbacca Jiang Johnleemk Jongarrettuk Joseph Dwayne Jxg Kaihsu Ke4roh Korath Laguna72 Lance6Wins MacGyverMagic MarkPNeyer Mateo SA MathKnight Matt Crypto Mixcoatl Modemac Montrealais Mrwojo Nadavspi Nickshanks Nknight Peter L PFHLai Poccil Radagast Rdsmith4 Remember Richard Cane RickK Rje Rmhermen Saint-Paddy Sbwoodside Scooter Scott Sanchez Securiger Seth Ilys Simonides Solitude Spammer132 Spencer195 Sverdrup The Anome The King Of Gondor Tillwe TimothyPilgrim Tirin Toby Bartels VeryVerily Violetriga Wernher Whkoh Ydorb Youssefsan This is a list of English Wikinews editors who have actually created articles, as far back as Special:Newpages allows: Amgine Andrew pmk Arwel Parry BesigedB Borofkin Boud Cafzal Carlosar Dan100 Dcabrilo Dysprosia Gadfium Jiang King Ho Cheung Ronline Snooo Squeakfox Submarine The bellman VikOlliver VlSimpson Now, even though we're searching in a very large set, of these people, only 3 have actually edited Current Events on the English Wikipedia: Arwel Parry Gadfium Jiang Of these three, only Jiang has made a substantial number of edits on Wikinews. and he still contributes to Current Events as well. Arwel made 11 edits on Wikinews, Gadfium made 9 edits. None of the really active Wikinewsies, to my knowledge, are involved in Current Events on WP. Try writing a Wikinews article. Doing the research, collecting the references, writing a whole piece from scratch. This work is much more tedious than just providing a one paragraph summary with a source. It takes a different kind of person to do that. And the empirical data shows that. >You cited a Wikipedia regular as the author of this article. That's great but >the time it took to write and research that single story could have been spent >updating perhaps a half dozen existing Wikipedia articles. > Perhaps. People have a right to choose what they spend their time on. It's not up to you to decide that they shouldn't write news stories instead of updating Wikipedia articles. We don't have a hierarchy of projects. Wikinews has equal rights to Wikipedia. >And you are not in a position to go against the will of any wiki user >community. > > That is your opinion. In my opinion, it is the will of the Wikimedia community as a whole which counts. Wikimedia is a global project. It's not up to the French Wikimedia community to decide by majority that they don't want Wikinews, unless they have France-specific reasons for not wanting it. And I am supported in this both by policy and by statements of the Board to this effect, when I asked them this very question two months ago. Yes, I asked the Board whether we should treat the French Wikinews differently from the others because of the way the vote went, and the answer was no - I can document this with IRC chatlogs if necessary. This, by the way, is an interesting test case for language autonomy. And I firmly support the principle that Wikimedia-wide decisions can overrule local ones. >You have already managed to piss a great many people on the French Wikipedia >off. > People who didn't like Wikinews won't like the French Wikinews edition or any other. That doesn't matter. The time for voting on Wikinews is over. The project is launched and it will be started in the editions where there is sufficient interest to do so. Now, the real problem, I think, was in setting up the Wikinews voting pages as subpages of the languages. That gave some people the impression that the vote count of the Wikinews/Vote/Fr page has relevance on its own. It doesn't. Global votes should be counted and aggregated as such in the future. Regards, Erik From robin.shannon at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 04:02:12 2005 From: robin.shannon at gmail.com (Robin Shannon) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:02:12 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Project Wikineur In-Reply-To: <20050131234751.GP1091@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <010b01c507b8$83506c70$6f7219c4@genetrix> <53091267050131153442253e8e@mail.gmail.com> <20050131234751.GP1091@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <623d7338050131200267b2f6b3@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 10:47:51 +1100, David Gerard wrote: > Rebecca (misfitgirl at gmail.com) [050201 10:34]: > > > Wikibooks are on a specific theme. Work manuals can make good > > Wikibooks. And Wikibooks, whether single or in a series, can be made > > consistent, with the same set of headings and the same way of > > detailing information. I just can't see any reason to make this a > > seperate wiki - it'd just be a wikibook that we decided to promote > > above all the others, which isn't fair. > > Unless it's Wikipedia, which is fair cos it's by far the hugest wiki book! > Or wiktionary.Or wikiquote... Wikibooks was set up to be the home of textbooks. Not books, but Textbooks. Hence why wikpedia, wiktionary and wikiquote are not on wikibooks (other than historical accident). I really dont think it is fair to the wikibooks community, that we tell every new wikiproject to go set up on wikibooks. Its in risk of becoming the wikimedia dumping ground. Either we need to start telling people, go set up on wikicities, so we can see what happens and then if we like it we might invite you into the wikimedia family (as Jimbo has suggested) or create a wikilabs (as me and sj have suggested). There are lots of things of wikibooks right now that shouldnt be there. Take the cookbook for example; some wikipedians decided the content wasn't appropriate for wikipedia, so they pushed it off into wikibooks, despite it not being a textbook. The gardening book aswell. This is really the same as saying i dont want to throw this out, and i dont want to keep it, so ill just put it all in the backyard shed and pretend its not there. I personaly think that something like the cookbook, or the gardening book should have thier own wikis, and also another wiki with the working title DIYwiki, should be set up. The DIY wiki would not have text books, but rather could house lots of the stuff that is currently on wikibooks, but shouldnt be. Like the bycycle repair book. The computer repair book. First Aid etc, plus the possiblity for many many more. I believe that this wiki should not be made up os "books" like wikibooks, but be more like wikipedia in style. For example: it would be [[drainage ditch]] not [[farming:drainage ditch]] (wikibooks style). The article would be a couple of sections # Intro paragraph on what drainage ditches are, where and how they are used # TOC # How to build a dranage ditch ## Method 1 ## Method 2 ### Minor variation on Method 2 ## Method 3 # How to repair a drainage ditch ## Method 1 # Other Important notes on drainage ditches # Further Reading # References /me puts on asbestos underware. so what do you all think? paz y amor, [[User:The bellman]] -- hit me: robin.shannon.id.au jab me: saudade at jabber.zim.net.au This work is licensed under the Creative Commons Recombo Plus License. To view a copy of this license, visit http://creativecommons.org/licenses/sampling+/1.0/ From robin.shannon at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 04:11:03 2005 From: robin.shannon at gmail.com (Robin Shannon) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:11:03 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up In-Reply-To: <41FEFE5D.6050207@gmx.de> References: <20050201022554.51150.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> <41FEFE5D.6050207@gmx.de> Message-ID: <623d7338050131201152f4cb1b@mail.gmail.com> > That is your opinion. In my opinion, it is the will of the Wikimedia > community as a whole which counts. Wikimedia is a global project. It's > not up to the French Wikimedia community to decide by majority that they > don't want Wikinews, unless they have France-specific reasons for not > wanting it. And I am supported in this both by policy and by statements > of the Board to this effect, when I asked them this very question two > months ago. Yes, I asked the Board whether we should treat the French > Wikinews differently from the others because of the way the vote went, > and the answer was no - I can document this with IRC chatlogs if > necessary. This, by the way, is an interesting test case for language > autonomy. And I firmly support the principle that Wikimedia-wide > decisions can overrule local ones. This worries me for two reasons. One) half (or so) of all wikimedians are editors on en. Two) most discussion about not just new projects but everything is in english. paz y amor, [[User:The bellman]] -- hit me: robin.shannon.id.au jab me: saudade at jabber.zim.net.au This work is licensed under the Creative Commons Recombo Plus License. To view a copy of this license, visit http://creativecommons.org/licenses/sampling+/1.0/ From misfitgirl at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 04:26:20 2005 From: misfitgirl at gmail.com (Rebecca) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:26:20 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Project Wikineur In-Reply-To: <623d7338050131200267b2f6b3@mail.gmail.com> References: <010b01c507b8$83506c70$6f7219c4@genetrix> <53091267050131153442253e8e@mail.gmail.com> <20050131234751.GP1091@thingy.apana.org.au> <623d7338050131200267b2f6b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5309126705013120267cebfbec@mail.gmail.com> > Wikibooks was set up to be the home of textbooks. Not books, but > Textbooks. Hence why wikpedia, wiktionary and wikiquote are not on > wikibooks (other than historical accident). I really dont think it is > fair to the wikibooks community, that we tell every new wikiproject to > go set up on wikibooks. Its in risk of becoming the wikimedia dumping > ground. Either we need to start telling people, go set up on > wikicities, so we can see what happens and then if we like it we might > invite you into the wikimedia family (as Jimbo has suggested) or > create a wikilabs (as me and sj have suggested). I'm not suggesting to use Wikibooks as an incubator, in advance of giving a project like this full status. I'm suggesting to make it what it is: a Wikibook about business (it *is* a textbook - even if it isn't aimed at a scholarly audience). It shouldn't *be* a specific wiki - the Wikispecies crew browbeat the board into setting a particularly bad precedent, and then everyone jumped on the bandwagon. Let us not make the same mistake again. There are lots of > things of wikibooks right now that shouldnt be there. Take the > cookbook for example; some wikipedians decided the content wasn't > appropriate for wikipedia, so they pushed it off into wikibooks, > despite it not being a textbook. The gardening book aswell. This is > really the same as saying i dont want to throw this out, and i dont > want to keep it, so ill just put it all in the backyard shed and > pretend its not there. We can always take Wikimedia in new directions, and I laud such proposals, but I strongly despise these subject-specific works. They have limited potential in terms of both readers and participation, are much less likely to be successful, and would really be much better suited to, say, setting up a MediaWiki installation on a business website. Just because it is a wiki doesn't mean that it has to be under the Wikimedia banner. They're something altogether different from projects such as Wikipedia, Wiktionary, Wikisource and Wikinews - which are Wikimedia's mainstay. I think a strong case could be made that Wikicookbook would fall into the first category, but Wikineur (and the disheartening plague of similar proposals appearing recently) fall well into the second. > I personaly think that something like the cookbook, or the gardening > book should have thier own wikis, and also another wiki with the > working title DIYwiki, should be set up. I still can't see why it wouldn't just be a Wikibook with a less scholarly focus. Vocational education can require textbooks, too. -- ambi From wikipedia at earthlink.net Tue Feb 1 05:51:32 2005 From: wikipedia at earthlink.net (Michael Snow) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 21:51:32 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up In-Reply-To: <20050201042622.750831AC1766@mail.wikimedia.org> References: <20050201042622.750831AC1766@mail.wikimedia.org> Message-ID: <41FF18E4.1010400@earthlink.net> Erik Moeller wrote: > Daniel Mayer schrieb: > >> And you are not in a position to go against the will of any wiki user >> community. > > That is your opinion. In my opinion, it is the will of the Wikimedia > community as a whole which counts. Wikimedia is a global project. It's > not up to the French Wikimedia community to decide by majority that > they don't want Wikinews, unless they have France-specific reasons for > not wanting it. And I am supported in this both by policy and by > statements of the Board to this effect, when I asked them this very > question two months ago. Yes, I asked the Board whether we should > treat the French Wikinews differently from the others because of the > way the vote went, and the answer was no - I can document this with > IRC chatlogs if necessary. Yes, please do. Some of us would very much like to know why this was so clear to you, based on your communications with the Board, and apparently not clear to Anthere, given that she is part of this same Board. --Michael Snow From maveric149 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 06:31:19 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 22:31:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up In-Reply-To: <41FEFE5D.6050207@gmx.de> Message-ID: <20050201063119.42975.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> --- Erik Moeller wrote: > Nope. The work of writing a news story from scratch is very different > from just summarizing what's going on. It is a very specific contributor > profile which, as the history of the English Wikinews has shown, is hard > to find among Wikipedians. You are just equating the groups because it > suits your argument without any empirical evidence to back it up. Let's > look at who actually edits the Current Events on en. This is a unique > list of contributors from the second half of October 2004, before > Wikinews was active: You are comparing en.wikipedia users who edit the [[Current events]] page with people on en.wikinews. In spite of the fact that that was not my point (updating of the corresponding articles that are in the news, was) it is also about two English-language project versions. I already said, very specifically and a couple times, that Wikinews in English and German are fine due to the size of the respective language bases. The others I'm less sure about and would really like to know what those language communities think. > Perhaps. People have a right to choose what they spend their time on. > It's not up to you to decide that they shouldn't write news stories > instead of updating Wikipedia articles. We don't have a hierarchy of > projects. Wikinews has equal rights to Wikipedia. I never said it was. My point is that each language community needs to decide among themselves if they are ready to start a new Wikimedia project in their language. This is a bottom-up approach, instead of a top down one where a small group of people decide this for them (or worse, the majority of people who don't even speak their language force it on them). > That is your opinion. In my opinion, it is the will of the Wikimedia > community as a whole which counts. Wikimedia is a global project. It's > not up to the French Wikimedia community to decide by majority that they > don't want Wikinews, unless they have France-specific reasons for not > wanting it. They cannot veto the Wikimedia project, but they should be able to prevent one from starting in their language if they don't feel they are ready yet. The issue is a bit moot now, since fr.wikinews exists and is not likely to be closed down. But in the future we need to be more sensitive to the views of different language communities. This whole ugliness has exposed a weakness in the current guidelines that needs to be fixed. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From maveric149 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 06:55:16 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 22:55:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Project Wikineur In-Reply-To: <5309126705013120267cebfbec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050201065517.85884.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> > > Wikibooks was set up to be the home of textbooks. Not books, but > > Textbooks. Hence why wikpedia, wiktionary and wikiquote are not on > > wikibooks (other than historical accident). I really dont think it is > > fair to the wikibooks community, that we tell every new wikiproject to > > go set up on wikibooks. Its in risk of becoming the wikimedia dumping > > ground. While I created the Wikibooks name based on a combination of WikiWiki and textbooks, that project has never been only about textbooks. It is a place to build just about any non-fiction reference book with, and this is critical, a finite end size (if you want to explore a subject area in more detail than that, start other books). The 'finite' part excludes potentially huge or even practically infinitely-sized things such as a general quote book, dictionary, or encyclopedia. The very different formats for these other projects is also a reason for the separation; Modules in a wikibook need to be in in a hierarchy and should ideally be read in a particular sequence, while articles in Wikipedia and Wikiquote and entries at Wiktionary are anything but hierarchical and can be read in any order. True, the emphasis is on instructional-oriented material, but that is an *emphasis* to encourage the most-potentially positive aspect of the project. It is ''not'' an exclusionary principle. ambi wrote: > We can always take Wikimedia in new directions, and I laud such > proposals, but I strongly despise these subject-specific works. They > have limited potential in terms of both readers and participation, are > much less likely to be successful, and would really be much better > suited to, say, setting up a MediaWiki installation on a business > website. Just because it is a wiki doesn't mean that it has to be > under the Wikimedia banner. I agree with this statement 100% and can't think of a thing to add. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From anthere9 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 06:59:02 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 07:59:02 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up References: <20050201022554.51150.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> <41FEFE5D.6050207@gmx.de> Message-ID: <41FF28B6.1080302@yahoo.com> Erik Moeller a ?crit: >> And you are not in a position to go against the will of any wiki user >> community. >> > That is your opinion. In my opinion, it is the will of the Wikimedia > community as a whole which counts. Wikimedia is a global project. It's > not up to the French Wikimedia community to decide by majority that they > don't want Wikinews, unless they have France-specific reasons for not > wanting it. And I am supported in this both by policy and by statements > of the Board to this effect, when I asked them this very question two > months ago. Yes, I asked the Board whether we should treat the French > Wikinews differently from the others because of the way the vote went, > and the answer was no - I can document this with IRC chatlogs if > necessary. This, by the way, is an interesting test case for language > autonomy. And I firmly support the principle that Wikimedia-wide > decisions can overrule local ones. I am perplex of how you could document that. I remember well that I agreed the creation of the new project would ultimately results in possibly this project be created in all languages, and that the founding principles would be the same in all languages. So, that obviously, all languages would be treated the same in that perspective. This is what I meant by "treated the same", of course, we need a project to be consistant across all languages. But here is also what I remembered we agreed upon (though obviously, there was misunderstanding) * a test site would be created in english * after a certain time, the test site would go live and become a real wikimedia site. At this point, we considered the concept validated by the board * each new site (new language) could start when enough people agree on its creation (Obviously, we do not agree on "enough people"; I would consider that when there is strong opposition from a community, among other things due to legal fears, then enough people is not really one or two) * as long as real editors are below 5 and no sysop is on project, the site would be demo for this language in any cases * only when the board approves would the language specific site becomes officially part of wikimedia. This was what *I* understood and approved. The reason of the last step was related to legal threats and such. In all cases, I support that wikimedia-wide policies overrules local ones only when it threatens consistency, image and functionning across all projects. As far as I remember, Wikimedia DOES NOT decide what the projects should become and wha they should contain. This is up to communities, with the benevolent support of the Foundation. Anthere From erik_moeller at gmx.de Tue Feb 1 07:03:32 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 08:03:32 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up In-Reply-To: <41FF18E4.1010400@earthlink.net> References: <20050201042622.750831AC1766@mail.wikimedia.org> <41FF18E4.1010400@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <41FF29C4.10301@gmx.de> Michael- > > Yes, please do. Some of us Who is "some"? Who is "us"? > would very much like to know why this was so clear to you, based on > your communications with the Board, and apparently not clear to > Anthere, given that she is part of this same Board. Here's a chatlog from October 29 on #wikimedia with Anthere and Aurevilly. Angela and jwales were also present. Okt 29 13:13:59 Xirzon, what will you do with wikinews poll result : lauch it globally or launch it only for languages that approved it? Okt 29 13:14:14 Aurevilly: I'm tending towards the latter, but will have to discuss with the board Okt 29 13:14:39 hum ? Okt 29 13:14:42 euuuu Okt 29 13:14:50 I think there is a misunderstanding Here Okt 29 13:14:57 vote is global Okt 29 13:15:06 Anthere: that's the way I always intended it, yes Okt 29 13:15:14 we do not isolate decisions depending on languages Okt 29 13:15:18 I have no problem launching globally! Okt 29 13:15:19 Xirzon, OK ; I think it's better to stay global, IMO Okt 29 13:15:29 I'm just trying to make people happy. Okt 29 13:15:32 launch or not launch of specific languages will be later Okt 29 13:15:48 I also think that isolating vote on different pages Okt 29 13:15:52 is indeed confusing Okt 29 13:15:58 I am not very happy with this Okt 29 13:16:00 Anthere: what would you suggest as an alternative? Okt 29 13:16:05 all votes on one page Now, as should be obvious from this excerpt, I was very willing to use whatever approach the Board prescribed. Later I commented: Okt 29 13:29:44 board: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:Aggregation is now used on all vote pages - please edit if needed The template contains the text: "Please note: The vote counts will be aggregated [[Wikinews/Vote/All|from all languages]]. A global majority is needed." It was prominently displayed on all voting pages. We also agreed not to state at this point when the different Wikinews editions would be launched ("leave it vague", Jimbo and Anthere said). Weeks after the vote, on December 2, I wrote the following message to foundation-l: http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2004-December/001601.html -snip- Now that we're about to move demo.wikinews.org to en.wikinews.org, we have to think about a procedure for setting up other language domains. If any decision on this matter has already been made by the Board, please let me know. It should be noted that on two of the language voting pages, no majority was reached on starting the project. These are French and Chinese. Others had very small participation. In the original proposal, I suggested that Wikinews can be set up in any accepted Wikimedia project language where there is at least one interested participant, and that 4 more regulars are required for the language to be recognized as "official", and for the firsts sysops to be created. I would like to ask the Board if this procedure is acceptable. If it is not, one possible alternative would be to immediately set up language domains for any language where there are more than 10 votes on the respective voting page on Meta, and more than 50% in favor. This would currently mean Japanese and German. The vote could be re-opened, and kept open permanently. -snip- Jimmy only responded that he was OK with creating de.wikinews.org. Anthere did not respond at all. Angela wrote a detailed response: http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2004-December/001607.html -snip- There is a proposed policy for new languages at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Policy_for_wikis_in_new_languages There may be reasons for Wikinews to follow a different procedure to our other wikis though, since the process of creating a news site really needs more users than an encyclopedia. The proposed language policy currently states five users are needed. If this does not change, then the same policy can be applied to Wikinews. ... I don't think the vote on whether to start the project is the same as a vote to have a language sub-domain once the project has started, so these votes should be discounted now. Any creation of a new language Wikinews should follow whatever the procedure is going to be used without reference to the previous vote. -snip- The policy for new languages was not changed. The German edition was launched on December 3. On December 4, I created the [[Wikinews/Start a new edition]] page. That sat there until January 29, collecting pledges, and referencing the policy for new languages on Meta. I don't know if Anthere was away when I sent the mail above, but she had several weeks to respond or to contradict the agreed upon requirements, or to comment on the "/Start a new edition" page that they were not acceptable. She did not, nor did Jimmy. As the chatlog above shows, I was willing to bend over backwards to make the community happy, but was later authorized to follow a simpler procedure, which I did. Now, I'm as always open to discussing ways to improve our policy. But the evidence is clear that there was no wrongdoing on my part. Regards, Erik From erik_moeller at gmx.de Tue Feb 1 07:19:47 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 08:19:47 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Language autonomy and "readiness" (was: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up) In-Reply-To: <20050201063119.42975.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050201063119.42975.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41FF2D93.4000408@gmx.de> Daniel Mayer schrieb: >The others I'm less sure about and would >really like to know what those language communities think. > > Aside from what people's feelings are, it is important to collect empirical data. So far, your claim that Wikipedia will lose contributors to in-the-news articles because of Wikinews is unproven. It may in fact be the other way around, given that Wikinews prominently links to as much Wikipedia material as possible. >My point is that each language community needs to decide >among themselves if they are ready to start a new Wikimedia project in their >language. > That's a different subject deserving of its own thread. I feel that whether or not a language community should have the right to decline a project should depend in large part on what its reasons are to do so. I am perfectly willing to say that the Chinese community should be allowed to make that decision, since they will have to pay the consequences if Wikipedia will be blocked because of Wikinews. But the arguments that have been brought up against the French Wikinews are just the same that have been brought up against Wikinews in general: It could harm our reputation, it could lead to legal problems, etc. Whether these arguments outweigh the benefits of the project has been addressed in a global vote. So I don't see a reason why the French community should be able to deny people the right to work on a French edition of Wikinews. Now, your argument is about "readiness". This is an interesting point, and the question of readiness should perhaps be handled in a different manner from the question of whether the project should be launched at all. When I launched the French Wikinews, I did not talk to the community beforehand and give them time to prepare for the launch. This may have ruffled a few feathers, and made it look like a decision that came from outside, rather than a genuine choice of the French Wikinews participants. What is a good solution to that problem? Perhaps, as soon as the required number of contributors is reached, there should be a vote on when the desired launch date is. "Never" would not be an option in that vote, but it could have a scope of, say, 4 weeks. This would also be a test of whether the people who pledged to participate are actually still around and interested, so the vote could have the same minimum number of participants. I am opposed to delaying the creation of Wikinews just because a Wikipedia in the language in question is still too small. That would create a hierarchy of projects. When there are participants, the project should be launched - but the timetable for the launch could be set by the community. Regards, Erik From maveric149 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 08:15:46 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 00:15:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Language autonomy and "readiness" (was: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up) In-Reply-To: <41FF2D93.4000408@gmx.de> Message-ID: <20050201081546.67872.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> --- Erik Moeller wrote: > Aside from what people's feelings are, it is important to collect > empirical data. So far, your claim that Wikipedia will lose contributors > to in-the-news articles because of Wikinews is unproven. It may in fact > be the other way around, given that Wikinews prominently links to as > much Wikipedia material as possible. Again, those data were in a language that I already noted was fine for Wikinews. And English, being such an international language and spoken by so many people can not be a used in such a test. The English-speaking community of users working on Wikimedia projects is huge. So your results are not at all surprising. > But the arguments that have been brought up against the French Wikinews > are just the same that have been brought up against Wikinews in general: > It could harm our reputation, it could lead to legal problems, etc. > Whether these arguments outweigh the benefits of the project has been > addressed in a global vote. Imposing the results of a global vote onto a language community which has a great deal of opposition to the vote result, is not something that makes for harmonious co-existence between languages. This is especially true when a large plurality of the global vote is from a single language community. So global votes are great for deciding if the foundation wants to start a new project at all. But whether or not particular language communities are ready for that project should be up to them - not forced onto them. > What is a good solution to that problem? Perhaps, as soon as the > required number of contributors is reached, there should be a vote on > when the desired launch date is. "Never" would not be an option in that > vote, but it could have a scope of, say, 4 weeks. This would also be a > test of whether the people who pledged to participate are actually still > around and interested, so the vote could have the same minimum number of > participants. 'Never' is not a valid option. I can agree with that. But 'not in the immediate future' *would* have to be an option, IMO. > I am opposed to delaying the creation of Wikinews just because a > Wikipedia in the language in question is still too small. That would > create a hierarchy of projects. When there are participants, the project > should be launched - but the timetable for the launch could be set by > the community. You are putting words into my mouth. I never said that Wikpedians in a certain language decide this, I said that the relevant language community decides it (well at least if I did say it, that was not what I meant :). *All* Wikimedia projects in a particular language have a stake in a new project in their language. Thus all Wikimedians who participate in those language project versions need to be heard. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From magnus.manske at web.de Tue Feb 1 08:16:50 2005 From: magnus.manske at web.de (Magnus Manske) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 09:16:50 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] NIFT: Translations for WikiMania? Message-ID: <41FF3AF2.1060503@web.de> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I just found NIFT [1], a free software for organizing and broadcasting simultanious translations of speeches. Something for WikiMania, maybe? Magnus [1] http://www.apo33.org/babels/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=18 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFB/zryCZKBJbEFcz0RAq5IAJsHHmVUFE2Wl1NP2bUQbfdtQKVKYACdFFw1 HiS2XiJLULSFrhljkTfgViY= =iYeq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From gerard.meijssen at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 08:37:36 2005 From: gerard.meijssen at gmail.com (Gerard Meijssen) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 09:37:36 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up In-Reply-To: <41FF29C4.10301@gmx.de> References: <20050201042622.750831AC1766@mail.wikimedia.org> <41FF18E4.1010400@earthlink.net> <41FF29C4.10301@gmx.de> Message-ID: <41FF3FD0.7060203@gmail.com> This whole huha about the Wikinews thing is in my opinion a storm in a teacup. There are some issues though. First, the wikipedia crowd is just that, the wikiPedia crowd. Many words have been used to describe how a wikinews article is different from a wikipedia article and, that you can atrackt different people to become part of the wikinews crowd. People may be part of both crowds, it is their prerogative. I object to the notion that the wikipedia crowd has much say over what happens on other projects; walk the talk. There is more to wikimedia than just wikipedia and, when people are part of multiple crowds, there will be a spill over of energy and idea's from one project to the next. Have a look at the nl:wikinews and you will find that a small community like the nl:crowd just laps wikinews up. Much work is done to make wikinews visually pleasing, much is done to give it its structure and I am sure it will be cool with great content. At this moment some of the best nl:wikipedia editors are working on nl:wikinews. It is bound to atract people who will be mainly active on wikinews but in the mean time it has a strong bond with the other nl:projects and as such it strenghtens the nl:wikiMedia crowd. The thing is, wikipedia is four years old, so what of it when a wikipedia will grow less quickly ... so what ? It will grow and it will reach the 500.000 mark for articles eventually. All in its own good time. That is one resource we have plenty of, time. One resource we should be jealous of is the coherency of a crowd within a language, in my opinion this constant bickering is not good for the fr:crowd and it is not good for the wikiMedia crowd. Please close ranks, be sensitive to each others sensibilities and consider how what you do helps the foundation. If it does not help the foundation and its projects, another line of action, reasoning is called for. Thanks, GerardM From erik_moeller at gmx.de Tue Feb 1 08:39:47 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 09:39:47 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Language autonomy and "readiness" (was: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up) In-Reply-To: <20050201081546.67872.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050201081546.67872.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41FF4053.7060803@gmx.de> Daniel - >Again, those data were in a language that I already noted was fine for >Wikinews. And English, being such an international language and spoken by so >many people can not be a used in such a test. The English-speaking community of >users working on Wikimedia projects is huge. So your results are not at all >surprising. > > That's not my point. My point is that you have not presented data in support of your hypothesis at all. >Imposing the results of a global vote onto a language community which has a >great deal of opposition to the vote result, is not something that makes for >harmonious co-existence between languages. > I do not see it as an imposition, but as the logical outcome of the global vote. Running a global organization like Wikimedia is always a balancing act between preserving a coherent identity and respecting local variations. My proposal takes into account local variations, such as the China situation. In these cases, a local vote is justifiable. If, however, we run it for every language community, this will just lead to largely divergent identities forming over the long term, in part simply due to statistical fluctuations or temporary shifts in opinion. Wikimedia will no longer be recognizable as one, the risk of forks will increase, and the pace of innovation will become ever more heterogenous. The disharmony right now is the result of miscommunications and a somewhat surprising launch. That's why I conclude from this experience that the timetable should be up to the interested participants to decide -- not to people who have no interest in the project at all, because it would then effectively become another vote *on the project*, which I am opposed to. "Not in the immediate future" makes little sense if you're asking people who have pledged to participate in the project when they want to do it. Regards, Erik From gerard.meijssen at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 10:03:49 2005 From: gerard.meijssen at gmail.com (Gerard Meijssen) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 11:03:49 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Project Wikineur In-Reply-To: <20050201065517.85884.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050201065517.85884.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41FF5405.5000404@gmail.com> Daniel Mayer wrote: >>>Wikibooks was set up to be the home of textbooks. Not books, but >>>Textbooks. Hence why wikpedia, wiktionary and wikiquote are not on >>>wikibooks (other than historical accident). I really dont think it is >>>fair to the wikibooks community, that we tell every new wikiproject to >>>go set up on wikibooks. Its in risk of becoming the wikimedia dumping >>>ground. >>> >>> > >While I created the Wikibooks name based on a combination of WikiWiki and >textbooks, that project has never been only about textbooks. It is a place to >build just about any non-fiction reference book with, and this is critical, a >finite end size (if you want to explore a subject area in more detail than >that, start other books). The 'finite' part excludes potentially huge or even >practically infinitely-sized things such as a general quote book, dictionary, >or encyclopedia. > >The very different formats for these other projects is also a reason for the >separation; Modules in a wikibook need to be in in a hierarchy and should >ideally be read in a particular sequence, while articles in Wikipedia and >Wikiquote and entries at Wiktionary are anything but hierarchical and can be >read in any order. > >True, the emphasis is on instructional-oriented material, but that is an >*emphasis* to encourage the most-potentially positive aspect of the project. It >is ''not'' an exclusionary principle. > >ambi wrote: > > >>We can always take Wikimedia in new directions, and I laud such >>proposals, but I strongly despise these subject-specific works. They >>have limited potential in terms of both readers and participation, are >>much less likely to be successful, and would really be much better >>suited to, say, setting up a MediaWiki installation on a business >>website. Just because it is a wiki doesn't mean that it has to be >>under the Wikimedia banner. >> >> > >I agree with this statement 100% and can't think of a thing to add. > >-- mav > > > One way of dealing with this is by having it as a "Wikicities" project. If it pans out, it can always return into the wikimedia fold :) . Thanks, Gerard From maveric149 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 10:04:37 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 02:04:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Language autonomy and "readiness" (was: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up) In-Reply-To: <41FF4053.7060803@gmx.de> Message-ID: <20050201100437.48269.qmail@web51609.mail.yahoo.com> Erik, But to be clear, I don't think you technically did anything wrong. It was all a big misunderstanding that was based upon some fairly untested policies. What is important for us now, is to make sure we don't make the same mistakes in the future. --- Erik Moeller wrote: > That's not my point. My point is that you have not presented data in > support of your hypothesis at all. I supplied arguments. You did the same and also supplied data that only proved a point I had conceded at the very start of this whole thing. Thus the effect of your data on this argument is moot. > I do not see it as an imposition, but as the logical outcome of the > global vote. You are welcome to that view. Many other people in the language communities that are affected by this 'logical outcome' have views that are contradictory to yours. Their voices and opinion about what is logical are also important and should be considered. Not just brushed aside because the global majority has spoken. > Running a global organization like Wikimedia is always a > balancing act between preserving a coherent identity and respecting > local variations. Thus my proposal to have Wikimedia-wide votes about the establishment of a project and if that passes (and gets board approval), then it would be up to individual language communities to figure out when it is a good time to start that project in their language. This balances things very well. More importantly, it would have avoided the current ugliness. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 10:19:50 2005 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 05:19:50 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] NIFT: Translations for WikiMania? In-Reply-To: <41FF3AF2.1060503@web.de> References: <41FF3AF2.1060503@web.de> Message-ID: <742dfd06050201021946a3fc84@mail.gmail.com> Yes, there are lots of tips we can take from NOMAD. Of course it seems that even with their own home-grown software it takes them a bit of work to get it set up each conference... and their documentation leaves a family of little somethings to be desired. The broadcasting bit of our simul translation will probably be thrown in for free if we outsource the translation. But especially if we're thinking about ever having a larger conference with more languages, it would pay to play with NIFT. +sj+ On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 09:16:50 +0100, Magnus Manske wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > I just found NIFT [1], a free software for organizing and broadcasting > simultanious translations of speeches. Something for WikiMania, maybe? > > Magnus > > [1] http://www.apo33.org/babels/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=18 > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFB/zryCZKBJbEFcz0RAq5IAJsHHmVUFE2Wl1NP2bUQbfdtQKVKYACdFFw1 > HiS2XiJLULSFrhljkTfgViY= > =iYeq > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > -- +sj+ _ _ :-------.-.--------.--.--------.-.--------.--.--------[...] From gchait at gmx.net Tue Feb 1 09:16:09 2005 From: gchait at gmx.net (Gavin Chait) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:16:09 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] re: Project Wikineur Message-ID: <006b01c5085a$bc543040$617219c4@genetrix> When I go to a library, I don't ask for a book. I ask for books on a specific subject. When I go to a university, I don't just ask to do a degree. I get one in a specific subject. The whole basis of education is "subject-specific works". That is how universities divide themselves up: different schools run independently but under the broad "brand" of a single institution. The Wiki Foundation is your broad brand. If Wikibooks is "a place to build just about any non-fiction reference book with, and this is critical, a finite end size (if you want to explore a subject area in more detail than that, start other books). The 'finite' part excludes potentially huge or even practically infinitely-sized things such as a general quote book, dictionary, or encyclopedia." There is immediately an exclusion since there are, potentially, an infinite number of different types of businesses. Take a walk down any main street in even the smallest town and the number of different businesses present runs into the hundreds. I'm also not too sure about "They have limited potential in terms of both readers and participation." In developed countries business owners spend a vast amount of time networking and studying up on how to run their businesses. There are a large number of organisations catering to this market (Business Network International, Entrepreneur Magazine, for instance). In the US 80% of people work for a small business - an individual or partnership owned concern - as compared to an institution owned by shareholders. There are millions of business owners. Even in South Africa there are about 10 local magazines catering to the market. The reference section in your local bookshop seems to be swamped with business books. And, here's the interesting part, most of them deal with business only in the most general of terms. There are very few books on specific businesses - mainly because most writers are consultants in general employment. Publishers are uncomfortable producing specific books for the general market. The information does exist. In the heads of entrepreneurs and NGO's (such as mine). Take a search on any of the weblog groups and see just how many are dedicated to business owners asking each other for advice (e.g. http://www.livejournal.com/users/entrepreneurs as a tiny sample). If you would like it to be inside Wikibooks, that is fine - but it does need a clearly defined entry point; a clear set of "rules" regarding presentation of information and a definite understanding of what business is (and is not). Even the simplest explanation for how to run (for instance) a farm producing maize is going to be lengthy. We don't go looking for food, we go looking for something specific. We don't want to watch just sport - we want something specific. Services are getting more specific, not less. Only a specialist can offer insight into the specialised needs of their clients. A librarian is not a business consultant. This doesn't mean that the techniques of libraries can't be used to present disparate information. Regards, Gavin From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 12:49:04 2005 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 07:49:04 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up In-Reply-To: <41FF29C4.10301@gmx.de> References: <20050201042622.750831AC1766@mail.wikimedia.org> <41FF18E4.1010400@earthlink.net> <41FF29C4.10301@gmx.de> Message-ID: <742dfd0605020104493207dbfb@mail.gmail.com> > But the evidence is clear that there was no wrongdoing on my part. Erik - I haven't seen anyone accuse you of wrongdoing, only of pissing people off. It feels as though the issue at hand is about handling loose consensus with goodwill and a peaceful heart, more than it is about following or breaking clearly-defined rules. Early discussions and votes about wikinews were tactful - concerned with consensus and discussion, not with empowering groups to act unilaterally if they satisfied a set of conditions - and *very* patient, and unarguably successful. So were you. I hope we can get back there. +sj+ On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 08:03:32 +0100, Erik Moeller wrote: > Michael Snow wrote: > > Yes, please do. Some of us > > Who is "some"? Who is "us"? > > > would very much like to know why this was so clear to you, based on Please don't chafe at Michael. I wanted to know the same thing, until you and Anthere clarified the matter. It is hard to know where you are coming from when your are so combative. +sj+ From beesley at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 13:46:04 2005 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:46:04 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Project Wikineur In-Reply-To: <41FF5405.5000404@gmail.com> References: <20050201065517.85884.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> <41FF5405.5000404@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8b722b8005020105462c544c06@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 11:03:49 +0100, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > One way of dealing with this is by having it as a "Wikicities" project. > If it pans out, it can always return into the wikimedia fold :) . Since many are regarding this as something suitable for Wikibooks, it would not be accepted at Wikicities unless the Wikibooks community expressly opposed it being part of their project. However, there is now a Wikicities Scratchpad, which provides a place for rejected Wikicities, so if someone wants to create this as a temporary wiki on that site, they can do so. This might be a useful place for people to demonstrate what their proposal is in order to show people on this list whether or not the wiki does look right for Wikibooks. http://scratchpad.wikicities.com/ Angela. From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 15:40:27 2005 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 10:40:27 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] re: Project Wikineur In-Reply-To: <006b01c5085a$bc543040$617219c4@genetrix> References: <006b01c5085a$bc543040$617219c4@genetrix> Message-ID: <742dfd0605020107404355d1c6@mail.gmail.com> Gavin, Thanks for sharing such a wonderful idea. This sounds like it could one day turn into a very large-scale project, one more suited to its own wiki, with many local wikiprojects, idiosyncratic policies about what kind of information can and can't be shared, how one can be neutral while addressing legal and political monetary issues that readers will take very much to heart, and more. One nice thing about this project is that its audience of active editors would be fairly distinct from the audience of active encyclopedia editors.ll I think the right way to go about creating new project like this is to find people who would contribute initial content, write up a few pages on meta: addressing specific policy issues that would have to be worked out for the project, and then write a handful of example articles (in your userspace, perhaps, since we haven't agreed on whether meta or wikibooks are suitable for such articles). +sj+ From erik_moeller at gmx.de Tue Feb 1 17:58:09 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 18:58:09 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up In-Reply-To: <742dfd0605020104493207dbfb@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050201042622.750831AC1766@mail.wikimedia.org> <41FF18E4.1010400@earthlink.net> <41FF29C4.10301@gmx.de> <742dfd0605020104493207dbfb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41FFC331.6090009@gmx.de> Sj - >I haven't seen anyone accuse you of wrongdoing, only of pissing people >off. > > Accusing is accusing. Stop this bullshit, please. Regards, Erik From anthere9 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 18:33:50 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 19:33:50 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up References: <20050201042622.750831AC1766@mail.wikimedia.org> <41FF18E4.1010400@earthlink.net> <41FF29C4.10301@gmx.de> Message-ID: <41FFCB8E.7070506@yahoo.com> Erik Moeller a ?crit: > In the original proposal, I suggested that Wikinews can be set up in > any accepted Wikimedia project language where there is at least one > interested participant, and that 4 more regulars are required for the > language to be recognized as "official", and for the firsts sysops to > be created. Ah. I am happy to find out ultimately that I had understood the steps well. You wrote well here that 5 regulars were needed for the project to be recognised official. I see "regular" and I see "official". So my feelings of what the creation steps should be were just correct. This is how I interpretated the idea that the creation had to require an official step somehow, and where I interpretated that bulgarian editors or editors not active for a month would not be counted for creation of french speaking wikinews. I am sure we will agree on this. So, to end up on this, again, I do not think you broke any policy, I just think that if we stick blindly to rules, then a rule broken is problematic. In this case, the rule forgot to mention an editor had to be able to speak a language to have his name counted for a new project, so obviously, his name was counted. We have two choices. Either to make better and more rules, by mentionning the opinion of a non speaking editor is not useful for the creation of a certain language, or we just try to be reasonable, take time before doing things, ask people around. Just another way of doing things. It takes time indeed, but that might be worth peace. From gchait at gmx.net Tue Feb 1 20:48:15 2005 From: gchait at gmx.net (Gavin Chait) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 22:48:15 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] re: Project Wikineur Message-ID: <00d401c5089f$bf147b60$617219c4@genetrix> I think it is a wonderful suggestion to set up a pilot on the Scratchpad. Questions that I would appreciate some guidelines on: 1. What constitutes "proof" that it is indeed viable? (How much information production, visitors, etc.) 2. Are there other suggestions than the name "wikineur" that anyone would prefer? 3. What sort of limitations, concerns, etc do I need to address prior to creating a Scratchpad pilot? Regards, Gavin From erik_moeller at gmx.de Tue Feb 1 21:30:25 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 22:30:25 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Swedish, Spanish, French Wikinews set up In-Reply-To: <41FFCB8E.7070506@yahoo.com> References: <20050201042622.750831AC1766@mail.wikimedia.org> <41FF18E4.1010400@earthlink.net> <41FF29C4.10301@gmx.de> <41FFCB8E.7070506@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41FFF4F1.70605@gmx.de> Anthere - > > Ah. I am happy to find out ultimately that I had understood the steps > well. You wrote well here that 5 regulars were needed for the project > to be recognised official. Please read the complete email. That proposal was never implemented because it did not receive Board approval. > We have two choices. Either to make better and more rules Better, not more, seems reasonable to me. Anything else will lead to arbitrary outcomes in the creation of new languages. Regards, Erik From willtop31 at epsfh.com Wed Feb 2 00:13:55 2005 From: willtop31 at epsfh.com (willtop31 at epsfh.com) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 18:13:55 -0600 Subject: [Foundation-l] Requests for new Wiki projects Message-ID: <1107303235.42001b43244e1@webmail.epsfh.com> Hello Wikipedia people, My name is Craig, and I would like to make a proposal. I did make an honest effort to follow all the instructions correctly, but I don?t feel I got it right. If I did something wrong please let me know, so I may resubmit. I had particular trouble posting to the ?Content pages in category "Proposed projects"?, something did not seem right. Well, here it is. ===Working title=== *Link to proposal on mailing list: [http://mail.wikipedia.org/] *Naming suggestions: ElectroWiki Wikitronics Wikital *Domain name: Electrowiki.org *Scope: A place to gather international standards for electricity, electronics, and robotics. Instead of paying large sums of money to the IEEE and ISO for access to their standards. *Details: Electronics and electrical Wikipedia. This project will grow as student contribute and use it as a resource for studying electronics, alternative energy, and robotics. *Proposer: Craig Topham *People interested joining: Students of Lane Community College Electronic Technology Programs. Eugene, Oregon U.S.A ** ** *Relevant links: http://edt.epsfh.com/electrowiki/index.php (just starting, very, very much just starting, not even a zygote) Thank you, Craig Topham Willtop31 at epsfh.com From fallout at lexx.eu.org Tue Feb 1 23:16:35 2005 From: fallout at lexx.eu.org (=?ISO-8859-1?B?UGF3ZbMgJ0F1c2lyJyBEZW1ib3dza2k=?=) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 00:16:35 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Requests for new Wiki projects In-Reply-To: <1107303235.42001b43244e1@webmail.epsfh.com> References: <1107303235.42001b43244e1@webmail.epsfh.com> Message-ID: <1952530177.20050202001635@lexx.eu.org> If it were to be created, wouldn't it be best to merge it with Wikibuilder and WikiTech proposals? -- Ausir Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia http://pl.wikipedia.org From misfitgirl at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 23:51:01 2005 From: misfitgirl at gmail.com (Rebecca) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:51:01 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] re: Project Wikineur In-Reply-To: <006b01c5085a$bc543040$617219c4@genetrix> References: <006b01c5085a$bc543040$617219c4@genetrix> Message-ID: <53091267050201155167332ead@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:16:09 +0200, Gavin Chait wrote: > When I go to a library, I don't ask for a book. I ask for books on a > specific subject. When I go to a university, I don't just ask to do a > degree. I get one in a specific subject. The whole basis of education is > "subject-specific works". That is how universities divide themselves up: > different schools run independently but under the broad "brand" of a single > institution. > > The Wiki Foundation is your broad brand. > > If Wikibooks is "a place to build just about any non-fiction reference book > with, and this is critical, a finite end size (if you want to explore a > subject area in more detail than that, start other books). The 'finite' part > excludes potentially huge or even practically infinitely-sized things such > as a general quote book, dictionary, or encyclopedia." There is immediately > an exclusion since there are, potentially, an infinite number of different > types of businesses. Take a walk down any main street in even the smallest > town and the number of different businesses present runs into the hundreds. > > I'm also not too sure about "They have limited potential in terms of both > readers and participation." By this line of reasoning, you could argue that any subject-specific work deserves its own project. I'm not arguing that a business wiki along these lines is inherently a bad idea - just that it's most unsuitable for a seperate project under the Wikimedia banner. As I said previously, I think it could well be suited to setting up an installation of MediaWiki (the open-source software that runs all the Wikimedia projects) on a business website. Or, alternatively, you could do as that paragraph says, and just create a second book when necessary. Virtually any literate person is capable of adding material to Wikipedia, Wikinews, Wikiquote, or Wikisource. Wiktionary has similar general appeal, if not so complete, and many people can edit Wikibooks due to its diverse nature. It's these projects, with their diverse appeal, that are Wikimedia's mainstay. This just isn't the case with *any* of these subject-specific works. It's also interesting to note that arguably the two least successful projects at this point - Wiktionary and Wikibooks (and the complete failure of Wikispecies, which I don't even count) - are those that perhaps not everyone is capable of adding material to. I wish you luck with this - be it at Wikibooks or Wikicities, but I will strongly oppose this project becoming one of Wikimedia's. Wikispecies was an abomination, and I'm determined to do my best to see that the mistake isn't repeated. -- ambi From maveric149 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 2 01:20:03 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 17:20:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Requests for new Wiki projects In-Reply-To: <1107303235.42001b43244e1@webmail.epsfh.com> Message-ID: <20050202012003.61006.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> --- willtop31 at epsfh.com wrote: > ===Working title=== > *Link to proposal on mailing list: [http://mail.wikipedia.org/] > *Naming suggestions: ElectroWiki Wikitronics Wikital > *Domain name: Electrowiki.org > *Scope: A place to gather international standards for electricity, > electronics, > and robotics. Instead of paying large sums of money to the IEEE and ISO for > access to their standards. > *Details: Electronics and electrical Wikipedia. This project will grow as > student contribute and use it as a resource for studying electronics, > alternative energy, and robotics. > *Proposer: Craig Topham > *People interested joining: > Students of Lane Community College Electronic Technology Programs. Eugene, > Oregon U.S.A Sounds like it would make for a great set of books on Wikibooks. -- mav __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From robin.shannon at gmail.com Wed Feb 2 04:14:08 2005 From: robin.shannon at gmail.com (Robin Shannon) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 15:14:08 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] re: Project Wikineur In-Reply-To: <53091267050201155167332ead@mail.gmail.com> References: <006b01c5085a$bc543040$617219c4@genetrix> <53091267050201155167332ead@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <623d7338050201201448870d45@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:51:01 +1100, Rebecca wrote: > Virtually any literate person is capable of adding material to > Wikipedia, Wikinews, Wikiquote, or Wikisource. Wiktionary has similar > general appeal, if not so complete, and many people can edit Wikibooks > due to its diverse nature. It's these projects, with their diverse > appeal, that are Wikimedia's mainstay. This just isn't the case with > *any* of these subject-specific works. It's also interesting to note > that arguably the two least successful projects at this point - > Wiktionary and Wikibooks (and the complete failure of Wikispecies, > which I don't even count) - are those that perhaps not everyone is > capable of adding material to. Can, i just add a little off topic plug for wiktionary here. I think that it has really improved over the last year, and while still not a real threat to the oxford, its getting to be quite useful to people (such as myself) who are interested in translating things between languages. To anyone who hasn't looked at wiktionary lately id suggest having a gander, cause i think its just freaking awesome, and that in another 4 or 5 years, the OED will be as obsolete as the britanica is now. But yes ambi, you are right about it having a smaller possible base of users, since some basic knowledge of how languages work is needed for a lot of the work they do over there. paz y amor ~~~~ -- hit me: robin.shannon.id.au jab me: saudade at jabber.zim.net.au This work is licensed under the Creative Commons Recombo Plus License. To view a copy of this license, visit http://creativecommons.org/licenses/sampling+/1.0/ From anthere9 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 2 05:59:07 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 21:59:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] (no subject) Message-ID: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> Hello all This week, I will go to a meeting in France about sustainable development and new technologies. There should be many interesting people, some of them already know us and are already trying to set collaborations with us. There should be discussions about how new technologies could help underdevelopped countries, or about structuring information on internet (semantic web, thesaurus, dictionaries...), or about how to improve accuracy of information available on the net, open source software, collaborative platforms, e-learning etc... This will last two days, but I could only find one day to get there infortunately. At least, I chose the one probably most interesting for us. The organiser of the meeting (Michel Giran of Planetecologie) invited me for free and will provide room on his own booth for Wikipedia (booth and registration was 500 euros otherwise...). Normally, a poster was done with our logo on it. I spent the last few days fighting with software to manage to print business cards and leaflets, and must say I am *very* proud of the result (eh :-)). The resulting leaflet is informative, colorful, high quality printing and fun. I hope other people will use it as well. Normally, they should not need any update for a reasonable number of months, and if necessary, update under Quark Xpress should be easy (as long as you do not try to mix old macintosh software and recent PC software... but never mind). When I came back from Algeria, I had a whole set of pictures (only part of them have been uploaded yet and none is labelled :-)). Among these pictures, a photo of flower of the Thora Thora, a tree which may be found in Sahara. I just put the picture on my user page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/user:Anthere) A few days later, I found that the picture on the french wikipedia has flowered in a full article about the thora thora, which I discover, is also known under the sweet name : Pommier de Sodome (see the reason for this name on the french article...). Thanks Jeantosti : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pommier_de_Sodome I could not resist taking this article as an example, for being about african flora, for being a very nice example of our botanic section, and for the little cultural background. And also, because it was enough that I put a picture on my user page for this article to miraculously appear. Anyway, the resulting pdf which may be printed is about one mega in size. Where could I host it so that other people might use it later to print more leaflets if they wish so ? Second point is that I had unfortunately to rework James business cards, because ... of non-operability between european format and american format :-( So, now I do have on my computer a high quality Wikimedia logo and business card models in european format (adobe illustrator files) which could be easily reused if needed. Again, where could I host this so to avoid that anyone has to do this job another time. Between James cards and mine, we shoud cover 99% of usual format (I might mention that I basically followed James design at first, but finally made a couple of changes). Ant __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From perrin at apotheon.com Wed Feb 2 15:36:32 2005 From: perrin at apotheon.com (Chad Perrin) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 10:36:32 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4200F380.7030900@apotheon.com> Anthere wrote: > Anyway, the resulting pdf which may be printed is > about one mega in size. Where could I host it so that > other people might use it later to print more leaflets > if they wish so ? Is this just a general request for someone to offer to host it on a web server somewhere, or are you looking to connect it to the Wikimedia family of sites somewhere (or are you asking something else entirely)? If the former, I've got a little webspace and bandwidth to spare. -- Chad From nsk2 at wikinerds.org Wed Feb 2 18:45:37 2005 From: nsk2 at wikinerds.org (NSK) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 20:45:37 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <4200F380.7030900@apotheon.com> References: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> <4200F380.7030900@apotheon.com> Message-ID: <200502022045.37618.nsk2@wikinerds.org> On Wednesday 02 February 2005 17:36, Chad Perrin wrote: > If the former, I've got a little webspace and bandwidth to spare. I have also some spare webspace/bandwidth. See http://portal.wikinerds.org/freehosting -- NSK http://portal.wikinerds.org From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Thu Feb 3 16:17:11 2005 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 11:17:11 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Main Page vandalism, emergency modes, and image checking Message-ID: <742dfd060502030817e234b68@mail.gmail.com> The Main Page on en: was vandalized yesterday, when a penis image remained on the page for many minutes. It was vandalized again today -- a goatse image remained there for almost /20 minutes/. Today it happened during a particularly slow time of the morning, around 14:35 UTC, perhaps in combination with other use of the site that slowed it down. It was noticed quickly, but it took a good 17 minutes for it to be successfully deleted once the problem had been announced on IRC, by the seemingly-omniscient Jimmy Wales. While everyone was fretting over the site's slowness, a few problems presented themselves: * There was no one-click way to remove or delete an image * There was no packaged way to shut down all access to the site in an emergency * There was no packaged way to quickly redirect all visitors (to en:, say) to another site or page * There was no way to bring the site[s] to (or restart the site in) an 'emergency mode' that only allowed limited access (say, by logged-in users) ** Even had there been such a way, there were few (only 1-2) people with shell access who would have been able to run shell scripts, and it took an extra minute or two to get someone's attention. * There were a limited number of ways to reach the collection of devs to let them know there was an emergency. This was not the worst emergency in the world, so the last point in particular was not as big a deal as it might have been. =========== Possible solutions: 1) Documentation: write down a standard way to quickly block all incoming requests / take down a site in an emergency / put up in its place a try-back-soon message or redirection to a static snapshot (see 3) 2) Code: add an 'emergency mode' that redirects all visitors to a static read-only snapshot of the site taken once a day 2.1) Code: add a text-only mode that only produces text 2.2) Code: add a one-click (js widget?) option [maybe 2 clicks with some kind of pop-up confirmation that doesn't require rendering another whole WP-page] so that even when the site is very slow, evil images can be deleted in under 15 minutes 2.3) More Code: add a different 'emergency mode' that only allows a limited set of users [logged-in users? users on a specific list?] to use the site. 3) Code + Image Policy: add an IMAGE REVIEW step that imposes a time delay (or requires user approval) before an image can be displayed live on a page [until then the image could still be linked to via an html link] 4) Offer pagers and implantable homing devices to devs who are going to be in the vicinity of computers anyway and are willing to be on-call for certain parts of the day; something more reliable than the blinking of an IRC window. ============ 1), 2), and 3) seem important to me. 2) also has useful implications for periods of deep sloth, and for taking things down to make changes. 3) addresses many problems we are having, not just on the main page. Please comment or suggest implementations. -- +sj+ From robert_horning at netzero.net Fri Feb 4 01:04:35 2005 From: robert_horning at netzero.net (Robert Scott Horning) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 18:04:35 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikistandards (was Requests for new Wiki projects) References: <20050202012003.61006.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4202CA23.4020201@netzero.net> Daniel Mayer wrote: >--- willtop31 at epsfh.com wrote: > > >>===Working title=== >>*Link to proposal on mailing list: [http://mail.wikipedia.org/] >>*Naming suggestions: ElectroWiki Wikitronics Wikital >>*Domain name: Electrowiki.org >>*Scope: A place to gather international standards for electricity, >>electronics, >>and robotics. Instead of paying large sums of money to the IEEE and ISO for >>access to their standards. >>*Details: Electronics and electrical Wikipedia. This project will grow as >>student contribute and use it as a resource for studying electronics, >>alternative energy, and robotics. >>*Proposer: Craig Topham >>*People interested joining: >>Students of Lane Community College Electronic Technology Programs. Eugene, >>Oregon U.S.A >> >> > >Sounds like it would make for a great set of books on Wikibooks. > >-- mav > > I had set up a previous proposal for something somewhat similar, with a strong emphasis on computer science and electronics, but more broadly done to support standards in other areas as well. Look at this link for more details of the proposal: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikistandards I've been lurking on the mailing list for awhile now mainly to avoid upsetting the existing power structure. Since this subject is being brought up, I might as well go "public" and ask on this mailing list as well. There are a number of aspects of this proposal that are important to keep in mind: * Avoid duplicating work on already free standards. That would include most of what happens with the W3C group, as well as ITEF with the RFC internet standards. Work on new standards should merely reference these existing standards where necessary. It isn't even worth the bother of trying to mirror these standards, unless there is a very serious concern that these public domain standards are going to be withdrawn from public consumption. * Some new standards documents need to be created. Some of this is advertising (Hey! We are here and can offer you a forum to put your standard together!), and a need to find people who want to come together and develop standards. The creation of a standards document is usually to scratch an itch, where there has been some confusion in the past, and to help with interoperability issues, i.e. trying to get two pieces of equipment to work together or two pieces of software to understand shared data. I've developed several in-house standards documents for my employers in the past, and often it is these minor standards that can be useful if you can find a place to have them available. Basically, we need to find what kinds of standards need to be developed, and start putting them together. * Indexing existing standards: There are a number of standards that are already available, and when you are starting a new project it is always better to follow an existing standard than try to make something new up on your own. A good "beginning" to get a project like this started would be to simply do a survey of existing standards documents that are freely available on the internet. Classifying and creating various indexes to link to these standards would be very valuable in its own right. Hopefully, if it is a resource being used some of the people interested in creating standards would look at the index, and if the existing documents don't seem to fit the task or need a new document could be created. A wiki is a very natural way to accomplish this task. There is more that I put into the proposal wiki page, but I think this is a real quick overview of what I am proposing. BTW, wholesale copying of IEEE or ISO standards would be essentially forbidden, unless the express written consent of the original standards author(s) is willing to independently provide a copyright license that is compatable with the GFDL. The typical ISO copyright does not allow for this, and often can be more draconian than even a typical Microsoft EULA. Be extra careful if you even have more than a printed library of ISO documents. There are also some very complicated software and electronic patent issues that you need to be aware of if you try to deal with IEEE or ISO standards as well. This is also true of RFCs to a lesser extent, but the W3C group has been pretty good (up until now) about making sure that to the best of their knowledge there are no patent issues on any of their documents. As far as getting students involved, it would be a very educational (as in learning from the School of Very Hard Knocks) for college students to get involved even with the simplest of standards documentation. You know you are in trouble when you argue for over three hours wheither you should have a semi-colon in one place or another. I would imagine that discussion pages on some of these standards documents could get quite lengthy and heated if done as a wikipedia project. The awsome thing about doing it in this manner is that you can join in the development of these standards even though you don't have a PhD at the end of your name, or that you aren't working for an exclusive group of companies that deliberately try to exclude other individuals, even if those other people really do know the technology. Originally I proposed this in its own seperate domain, but to start with I'd love to simply make this a sub-project on wikibooks, with the near-term interest of making it a seperate sub-domain of wikibooks. That wasn't my idea, but now that I've seen what and how things are put together here I think this is a more logical approach. It really isn't a bunch of textbooks, as is the original focus of wikibooks, but it is a bunch of book-like things that are organized in a very similar approach. If there are people interested in getting an independent wiki-based standards group going, please let me know. I think there is a real need for this in general, and I've seen the issues regarding the development and use of standards documents really affect quite a few people. When you need a public and free standard, it is worth its weight in gold. Litterally, if you print it out on gold foil, people would gladly pay more than that just to have the document. I'm not kidding. This is also one area that corporate sponsors might help with the subsidizing of Wikimedia projects, even if they don't have direct banner ads or other forms of blatent advertising. Simply having these documents available might just be enough, and I could even make a reasonable presentation to show it would be in a company's interest to provide this sponsorship, done as an engineering expense, not adverstising expense. I digress here though with the financial aspects... -- Robert Scott Horning From maveric149 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 4 03:32:49 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 19:32:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikistandards (was Requests for new Wiki projects) In-Reply-To: <4202CA23.4020201@netzero.net> Message-ID: <20050204033249.84006.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Robert Scott Horning wrote: > Originally I proposed this in its own seperate domain, but to start with > I'd love to simply make this a sub-project on wikibooks, with the > near-term interest of making it a seperate sub-domain of wikibooks. > That wasn't my idea, but now that I've seen what and how things are put > together here I think this is a more logical approach. It really isn't > a bunch of textbooks, as is the original focus of wikibooks, but it is a > bunch of book-like things that are organized in a very similar approach. Don't give up so easily. :) What I really don't like are subject-specific ideas for projects (different subjects can be handled through internal WikiProjects). You, however, implied a general approach which I liked the sound of (a wiki devoted to all different types of standards). That may be a viable concept - it may not. But there is nothing wrong with proving the concept on Wikibooks if that project's format and goals fit well-enough - could make for a series of nice books/booklets. You may also find that there is no need for a separate project. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From kylelutze at cox.net Fri Feb 4 03:50:47 2005 From: kylelutze at cox.net (kylelutze) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 19:50:47 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikistandards (was Requests for new Wiki projects) In-Reply-To: <20050204033249.84006.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050204033249.84006.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4202F117.9050002@cox.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I'm not sure wikibooks is the best place to start, but a wikistandards site is definitely something I'm interested in. There's only a couple of problems I see with it. As it is a wiki, and some of these standards are rather important, if somebody puts some false info into a standard, and people start using it while most others are using the correct one, this could lead to problems. The other is copyright infringements being made easily because some fool decides to post standards to a closed source project(I don't know if there is an easy legal way around this). Kyle Daniel Mayer wrote: | --- Robert Scott Horning wrote: | |>Originally I proposed this in its own seperate domain, but to start with |>I'd love to simply make this a sub-project on wikibooks, with the |>near-term interest of making it a seperate sub-domain of wikibooks. |> That wasn't my idea, but now that I've seen what and how things are put |>together here I think this is a more logical approach. It really isn't |>a bunch of textbooks, as is the original focus of wikibooks, but it is a |>bunch of book-like things that are organized in a very similar approach. | | | Don't give up so easily. :) | | What I really don't like are subject-specific ideas for projects (different | subjects can be handled through internal WikiProjects). You, however, implied a | general approach which I liked the sound of (a wiki devoted to all different | types of standards). | | That may be a viable concept - it may not. But there is nothing wrong with | proving the concept on Wikibooks if that project's format and goals fit | well-enough - could make for a series of nice books/booklets. You may also | find that there is no need for a separate project. | | -- mav | | | | __________________________________ | Do you Yahoo!? | Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. | http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 | _______________________________________________ | foundation-l mailing list | foundation-l at wikimedia.org | http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCAvEXqTDXh8jUGRYRAqHKAKDn6lHd/4GyuLSOd+vDAKFjapFWMwCfdG64 /Z2nSReL4r1MQ23yCMqiHyE= =d6yV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From saintonge at telus.net Fri Feb 4 08:18:19 2005 From: saintonge at telus.net (Ray Saintonge) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 00:18:19 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Lista Wildsteina Message-ID: <42032FCB.1050801@telus.net> The following is the beginning of a discussion on Wikisource. This arose when the contributor sought to have some pages deleted as part of a rearrangement of the material. > "Lista Wildsteina" is a hot subject in Poland these days - it's a list > of people who used to collaborate with former secret service agencies > or were their victims, that's why it provokes various unwanted > reactions - it can't be exactly stated who was a secret agent and who > was a victim. After it is published here, possibly by Ausir - a > registered user - you should put a protection log on all its parts so > that people won't modify it. Consider it, please. With regards, Selena > von Eichendorf > 12:32, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC) > > The above description leaves me very concerned about whether we > should have this kind of material at all. My first impression is > that it is a list of people who are alleged to have participated > in certain kinds of wrongdoing. In the absence of further evidence > I would consider this material a defamatory and libellous attack > on the people listed. It is effectively a long series of personal > attacks, and contrary to Wikimedia policy on that basis. The > Wikimedia should have no role in the spreading of this kind of > thing. I cannot comment at this time about what implications the > material might carry under United States law. > > Secondarily, there is no indication about who produced this list, > and whether the author has released the material under GFDL. > Eclecticology > 07:31, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC) > The subject has already generated considerable controversy on the Polish Wikipedia, though I do not understan Polish so I am unable to follow that discussion. The material that has been placed on Wikisource after a brief explanation in Polish is a list of names accompanied by what seems to be a file number for each.. I believe that publishing this kind of material (assuming that I have interpreted what I see correctly) is utterly wrong in every respect. If the effect would be to make Wikimedia complicit in any kind of revenge against these alleged collaborators, we would need to share the guilt for whatever form such revenge might take. Unless I am advised that I have completely misinterpreted the material I propose to delete it all beginning tomorrow evening. Ec From fallout at lexx.eu.org Fri Feb 4 10:12:12 2005 From: fallout at lexx.eu.org (=?Windows-1250?B?UGF3ZbMgJ0F1c2lyJyBEZW1ib3dza2k=?=) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 11:12:12 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Lista Wildsteina In-Reply-To: <42032FCB.1050801@telus.net> References: <42032FCB.1050801@telus.net> Message-ID: <497671410.20050204111212@lexx.eu.org> After the debate, I think it'd indeed be best to delete it (at least for now). -- Ausir Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia http://pl.wikipedia.org From fredbaud at ctelco.net Fri Feb 4 12:12:55 2005 From: fredbaud at ctelco.net (Fred Bauder) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 05:12:55 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Lista Wildsteina In-Reply-To: <42032FCB.1050801@telus.net> Message-ID: The security services in the Soviet Bloc were corrupt; names, actions and information were included simply to meet quotas, names of people who had no connection whatever with totalitarian activities. Fred > From: Ray Saintonge > Reply-To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List > Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 00:18:19 -0800 > To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List > Subject: [Foundation-l] Lista Wildsteina > > I believe that publishing this kind of material (assuming that I have > interpreted what I see correctly) is utterly wrong in every respect. If > the effect would be to make Wikimedia complicit in any kind of revenge > against these alleged collaborators, we would need to share the guilt > for whatever form such revenge might take. > > Unless I am advised that I have completely misinterpreted the material I > propose to delete it all beginning tomorrow evening. > > Ec From robert_horning at netzero.net Fri Feb 4 18:55:14 2005 From: robert_horning at netzero.net (Robert Scott Horning) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 11:55:14 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikistandards (was Requests for new Wiki projects) References: <20050204033249.84006.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> <4202F117.9050002@cox.net> Message-ID: <4203C512.7060107@netzero.net> kylelutze wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > I'm not sure wikibooks is the best place to start, but a wikistandards > site is definitely something I'm interested in. There's only a couple of > problems I see with it. As it is a wiki, and some of these standards are > rather important, if somebody puts some false info into a standard, and > people start using it while most others are using the correct one, this > could lead to problems. The other is copyright infringements being made > easily because some fool decides to post standards to a closed source > project(I don't know if there is an easy legal way around this). > > Kyle > I don't think that this is nearly so much of a problem. There would eventually have to be some way to "freeze" a standard so only admins or trusted individuals would be able to make minor changes to the standard. This would happen when a standard is considered "complete" by the group putting the standard out, and would be a community decision. The point there is precisely that you don't want people inserting something into the standard after people are trying to implement it. The "new" version (2.0 or whatever) certainly should be modifyable, and that would be no different than any other wikimedia project... subject to vandalism like any other wiki page. Trust me, most parts of a standard are going to have some extreame scrutiny in it, and it is more likely that people are going to be inserting "false" history into mainline wikipedia entries, and getting away with it, than somebody inserting false specifications into a standard. Page history will also be a good tool to find out just who did what, and would be used quite often in the process of standards development. I think editing wars where two groups of people keep putting their "changes" into the standard would be more of a headache, and trying to "lock out" the other group. As far as copyright violations, again this is just like copyright violations for any other part of all of the Wikimedia projects. Indeed, I think it would be much easier for community members involved with something like Wikistandards to be able to identify copyright violations than would be the case for multimedia items like images or sound clips. Those who work regularly with these standards would be able to identify immediately when something has been copied illegally and it would be fairly easy and straight forward to delete that content. It would be important, however, to remind new users to Wikistandards that they should avoid copyright violations, particularly existing standards that have clear copyright like ISO standards. One potential legal hassle that would be unique to Wikistandards would be a group trying to reverse-engineer an existing standard. Clearly the copyright would be under the GFDL (or whatever is reasonable.... this isn't a huge issue in this case), but there would be some other legal minefields like the DCMA or the Patriot Act (in the USA) that might come into play and kill the project, with possible arrest of participants in the reverse engineering process. Of secondary concern would be people who have been "contaminated" by seeing the original specification (closed, propritary, and subject to Non-disclosure agreements) and then putting some of that original copyrighted specification into the reverse engineering effort. Or worse yet, the company(ies) involved with the original spec deliberately contaminating the reverse engineering spec and through that killing the spec. I'm not even sure what policies should be reasonable to try and avoid these issues. I do think groups like the EFF and Groklaw would get heavily involved if legal issues did come up, particularly if individuals arrested were otherwise innocent participants in the process. Indeed, such arrests would make major headlines, particularly among "geek" news sources like Slashdot or Wired. The only reason I'm suggesting to start through Wikibooks is only because these are already book-like projects, and it is a good way to bootstrap the whole thing to see if it can be a viable project on its own. Even if Wikistandards die and doesn't do too well, the content can be maintained by the existing Wikibooks community, even if it is an ugly step child. -- Robert Scott Horning 218 Sunstone Circle Logan, UT 84321 (435) 753-3330 robert_horning at netzero.net From robert_horning at netzero.net Fri Feb 4 18:53:56 2005 From: robert_horning at netzero.net (Robert Scott Horning) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 11:53:56 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikistandards (was Requests for new Wiki projects) References: <20050204033249.84006.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> <4202F117.9050002@cox.net> Message-ID: <4203C4C4.9030608@netzero.net> kylelutze wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > I'm not sure wikibooks is the best place to start, but a wikistandards > site is definitely something I'm interested in. There's only a couple of > problems I see with it. As it is a wiki, and some of these standards are > rather important, if somebody puts some false info into a standard, and > people start using it while most others are using the correct one, this > could lead to problems. The other is copyright infringements being made > easily because some fool decides to post standards to a closed source > project(I don't know if there is an easy legal way around this). > > Kyle > I don't think that this is nearly so much of a problem. There would eventually have to be some way to "freeze" a standard so only admins or trusted individuals would be able to make minor changes to the standard. This would happen when a standard is considered "complete" by the group putting the standard out, and would be a community decision. The point there is precisely that you don't want people inserting something into the standard after people are trying to implement it. The "new" version (2.0 or whatever) certainly should be modifyable, and that would be no different than any other wikimedia project... subject to vandalism like any other wiki page. Trust me, most parts of a standard are going to have some extreame scrutiny in it, and it is more likely that people are going to be inserting "false" history into mainline wikipedia entries, and getting away with it, than somebody inserting false specifications into a standard. Page history will also be a good tool to find out just who did what, and would be used quite often in the process of standards development. I think editing wars where two groups of people keep putting their "changes" into the standard would be more of a headache, and trying to "lock out" the other group. As far as copyright violations, again this is just like copyright violations for any other part of all of the Wikimedia projects. Indeed, I think it would be much easier for community members involved with something like Wikistandards to be able to identify copyright violations than would be the case for multimedia items like images or sound clips. Those who work regularly with these standards would be able to identify immediately when something has been copied illegally and it would be fairly easy and straight forward to delete that content. It would be important, however, to remind new users to Wikistandards that they should avoid copyright violations, particularly existing standards that have clear copyright like ISO standards. One potential legal hassle that would be unique to Wikistandards would be a group trying to reverse-engineer an existing standard. Clearly the copyright would be under the GFDL (or whatever is reasonable.... this isn't a huge issue in this case), but there would be some other legal minefields like the DCMA or the Patriot Act (in the USA) that might come into play and kill the project, with possible arrest of participants in the reverse engineering process. Of secondary concern would be people who have been "contaminated" by seeing the original specification (closed, propritary, and subject to Non-disclosure agreements) and then putting some of that original copyrighted specification into the reverse engineering effort. Or worse yet, the company(ies) involved with the original spec deliberately contaminating the reverse engineering spec and through that killing the spec. I'm not even sure what policies should be reasonable to try and avoid these issues. I do think groups like the EFF and Groklaw would get heavily involved if legal issues did come up, particularly if individuals arrested were otherwise innocent participants in the process. Indeed, such arrests would make major headlines, particularly among "geek" news sources like Slashdot or Wired. The only reason I'm suggesting to start through Wikibooks is only because these are already book-like projects, and it is a good way to bootstrap the whole thing to see if it can be a viable project on its own. Even if Wikistandards die and doesn't do too well, the content can be maintained by the existing Wikibooks community, even if it is an ugly step child. -- Robert Scott Horning 218 Sunstone Circle Logan, UT 84321 (435) 753-3330 robert_horning at netzero.net From EarthStorm at gmx.net Sat Feb 5 04:06:20 2005 From: EarthStorm at gmx.net (David Bruhn) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 20:06:20 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] New Project Message-ID: <4204463C.1060506@gmx.net> I've proposed a new project, Wikibate . Come check it out. - David Bruhn From kylelutze at cox.net Sat Feb 5 06:04:10 2005 From: kylelutze at cox.net (kylelutze) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 22:04:10 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] New Project In-Reply-To: <4204463C.1060506@gmx.net> References: <4204463C.1060506@gmx.net> Message-ID: <420461DA.1030804@cox.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 This is more or less what the discussion area should be for. this goes back to that topic a while ago where I think this is just another unnecessary split off. That's just my thoughts anyways Kyle David Bruhn wrote: | I've proposed a new project, Wikibate | . Come check it out. | | - David Bruhn | | | _______________________________________________ | foundation-l mailing list | foundation-l at wikimedia.org | http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCBGHaqTDXh8jUGRYRAnN5AJ4lncOLhT7SKc5vDgFFpv0UxYMIFgCbBwxr wEzFALjpQssgGa17e3H2+D0= =dlPA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nsk2 at wikinerds.org Sat Feb 5 06:46:43 2005 From: nsk2 at wikinerds.org (NSK) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 08:46:43 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] New Project In-Reply-To: <4204463C.1060506@gmx.net> References: <4204463C.1060506@gmx.net> Message-ID: <200502050846.43377.nsk2@wikinerds.org> On Saturday 05 February 2005 06:06, David Bruhn wrote: > I've proposed a new project, Wikibate Well, the problem with debate projects is where to set their limits: - would you accept neonazis to disseminate their ideas on it? - etc... How do you plan to solve this kind of problems and what limits are to considering to impose? -- NSK http://portal.wikinerds.org/slashdotting2005feb4 From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 5 08:43:34 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 09:43:34 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: promotional items (was no subject) References: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> <4200F380.7030900@apotheon.com> Message-ID: <42048736.1000801@yahoo.com> Thanks for the proposition Chad and NSK, but I had an idea. We are sharing many things, like articles. We coedit articles. We are not sharing all of our promotional items, and usually, we can not coedit them. As a result, we tend to do again what other people have already done, and generally, we lack promotional items. I invite you to look at this page : http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_promotion For those of us going outside to promote wikipedia, answering journalists, going to meetings, etc... it is not a very satisfying page. For example, at least 2 people have made business cards. But these models are not here. I know as a fact some leaflets are not here. I know italian made a nice one. I cannot see it. I made presentations of wikipedia. Many others did, but they cannot be reused if not listed here. One of mine is currently hosted by a craowiki editors, NOT on wikipedia. We have now great leaflets here, but they are not available, either in final version, or in workable version, because I have no easy hosting place. Elian told me we were cruelly lacking promotional items for FOSDEM. I think this is poor. We need to have access to the version of leaflets or business cards so we can improve them. We need to have access to leaflets in other languages so that when we go to multilingual events, we can provide a wide diversity of leaflets in several languages. So, here is my suggestion I would like that a little bit of room is planned on one of wikimedia servers to host all these promotional things. This is Jimbo and Angela to answer here. Second we need to have a way to upload this data on the server. So, possibly to have a contact person which can do it for us with no access to servers. This would be Brion to comment for example ? Third, I would like that accross all languages, we make an effort to gather all existing information, in degraded pdf version for email sending, in good pdf version for printing and in workable version (photoshop, illustrator, xpress, whatever). What do you think ? Anthere Chad Perrin a ?crit: > Anthere wrote: > >> Anyway, the resulting pdf which may be printed is >> about one mega in size. Where could I host it so that >> other people might use it later to print more leaflets >> if they wish so ? > > > Is this just a general request for someone to offer to host it on a web > server somewhere, or are you looking to connect it to the Wikimedia > family of sites somewhere (or are you asking something else entirely)? > If the former, I've got a little webspace and bandwidth to spare. > > -- > Chad From beesley at gmail.com Sat Feb 5 16:03:31 2005 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 16:03:31 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: promotional items (was no subject) In-Reply-To: <42048736.1000801@yahoo.com> References: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> <4200F380.7030900@apotheon.com> <42048736.1000801@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8b722b8005020508035869b755@mail.gmail.com> > I would like that a little bit of room is planned on one of wikimedia > servers to host all these promotional things. > Second we need to have a way to upload this data on the server. I completely agree. An easy way to implement this might be to extend the range of files on the upload whitelist for the foundation wiki. Since only trusted users can edit there, enabling .pdf, .ppt, and .sxi shouldn't cause any problems, and would allow anyone with an account there to upload leaflets and presentations. Angela. From elian at djini.de Sat Feb 5 16:30:05 2005 From: elian at djini.de (Elisabeth Bauer) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 17:30:05 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: promotional items (was no subject) In-Reply-To: <8b722b8005020508035869b755@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> <4200F380.7030900@apotheon.com> <42048736.1000801@yahoo.com> <8b722b8005020508035869b755@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4204F48D.3030905@djini.de> Angela wrote: >> I would like that a little bit of room is planned on one of wikimedia >> servers to host all these promotional things. >> Second we need to have a way to upload this data on the server. > > I completely agree. An easy way to implement this might be to extend > the range of files on the upload whitelist for the foundation wiki. > Since only trusted users can edit there, enabling .pdf, .ppt, and .sxi > shouldn't cause any problems, and would allow anyone with an account > there to upload leaflets and presentations. Please do that. For users without account we can also publish an email contact address there to which they can send stuff and someone who has a wiki account checks the files and uploads them. greetings, elian From erik_moeller at gmx.de Sun Feb 6 00:22:38 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 01:22:38 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikinews Chat log Message-ID: <4205634E.1050905@gmx.de> The "Wikinews and Blogs" chat was a big success with plenty of varied participants from the blog and wiki worlds. Lots of interesting ideas were exchanged, including Wikinews support for blogging tools, licensing issues, RSS, and a potential shared space for citizen journalists from different projects. If you missed it, you can read the log of the discussion here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews_Chat/2005/02/05/log Background info: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews_Chat I'm looking forward to more open chat events like this one. Thanks to everyone who made it possible. Regards, Erik From t.starling at physics.unimelb.edu.au Sun Feb 6 01:59:31 2005 From: t.starling at physics.unimelb.edu.au (Tim Starling) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 12:59:31 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Resignation as Developer Liaison Message-ID: <42057A03.80708@physics.unimelb.edu.au> When I was appointed Developer Liaison in July 2004, Brion was on a wikibreak of indefinite duration, and I was the second choice. The roles are now reversed -- I've decided to concentrate on my academic work for a while, and Brion is as active as he ever has been. Thus, I am resigning as Developer Liaison effective immediately. This position should be filled by someone able to give their full attention to the job. This should not be construed as an indication that I intend to stay away from Wikipedia for a longer period, it's merely a reflection of the present situation. Those who know me would be aware that I'm not particularly power-hungry, hence I'm not calling this a "temporary resignation". I'm happy to take my turn, and if need be I'll return to this position later by the ordinary process. -- Tim Starling From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 6 03:37:14 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 19:37:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Resignation as Developer Liaison In-Reply-To: <42057A03.80708@physics.unimelb.edu.au> Message-ID: <20050206033714.90005.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> -- Tim Starling wrote: > When I was appointed Developer Liaison in July 2004, Brion was on a > wikibreak of indefinite duration, and I was the second choice. The roles > are now reversed -- I've decided to concentrate on my academic work for > a while, and Brion is as active as he ever has been. Thus, I am > resigning as Developer Liaison effective immediately. This position > should be filled by someone able to give their full attention to the job. You will be sorely missed Tim. Good luck on your PhD and hurry back (at least during school breaks). :) Your friends here will be waiting for your return. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From daniwo59 at aol.com Sun Feb 6 03:38:41 2005 From: daniwo59 at aol.com (daniwo59 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 22:38:41 EST Subject: [Foundation-l] Resignation as Developer Liaison Message-ID: <149.3e7e60ce.2f36eb41@aol.com> I echo everything that Mav said. It is great to see you getting on with your life and your PhD, but we all hope to see you here every now and then. Danny From kylelutze at cox.net Sun Feb 6 05:11:48 2005 From: kylelutze at cox.net (kylelutze) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 21:11:48 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Resignation as Developer Liaison In-Reply-To: <42057A03.80708@physics.unimelb.edu.au> References: <42057A03.80708@physics.unimelb.edu.au> Message-ID: <4205A714.80507@cox.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Good luck Tim, and hope you succeed (and put your knowledge to good use writing wikipedia article of course ;) ). Hope to see you back Kyle Tim Starling wrote: | When I was appointed Developer Liaison in July 2004, Brion was on a | wikibreak of indefinite duration, and I was the second choice. The roles | are now reversed -- I've decided to concentrate on my academic work for | a while, and Brion is as active as he ever has been. Thus, I am | resigning as Developer Liaison effective immediately. This position | should be filled by someone able to give their full attention to the job. | | This should not be construed as an indication that I intend to stay away | from Wikipedia for a longer period, it's merely a reflection of the | present situation. Those who know me would be aware that I'm not | particularly power-hungry, hence I'm not calling this a "temporary | resignation". I'm happy to take my turn, and if need be I'll return to | this position later by the ordinary process. | | -- Tim Starling | _______________________________________________ | foundation-l mailing list | foundation-l at wikimedia.org | http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCBacUqTDXh8jUGRYRAvRoAKCNUb8A90akO62WtmrmnQ298NB2FwCgwHor h3BZxxdEuYGvW2YiMEUyLwg= =sWYX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From walter at vankalken.net Sun Feb 6 07:04:05 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 14:04:05 +0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Resignation as Developer Liaison In-Reply-To: <42057A03.80708@physics.unimelb.edu.au> References: <42057A03.80708@physics.unimelb.edu.au> Message-ID: <4205C165.9060501@vankalken.net> Good luck on your studies mate! Waerth From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 6 08:26:33 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 09:26:33 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: promotional items (was no subject) References: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> <4200F380.7030900@apotheon.com> <42048736.1000801@yahoo.com> <8b722b8005020508035869b755@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4205D4B9.1010402@yahoo.com> Angela a ?crit: >>I would like that a little bit of room is planned on one of wikimedia >>servers to host all these promotional things. >>Second we need to have a way to upload this data on the server. > > > I completely agree. An easy way to implement this might be to extend > the range of files on the upload whitelist for the foundation wiki. > Since only trusted users can edit there, enabling .pdf, .ppt, and .sxi > shouldn't cause any problems, and would allow anyone with an account > there to upload leaflets and presentations. > > Angela. I would prefer that this is done on meta rather than foundation. But the foundation site is display of what we show outside. The meta is about organisation. It seems to me to be the right place where it should be. Leaflets, business cards and such are items for organisation purposes. This is also the reason why the promotion page is on meta, and not on foundation. Besides, there are two few people registered on the foundation for this to be correct. And finally, editors can promote wikipedia without necessarily be linked to foundation. If necessary, we can limit this ability to sysops only on meta. Anthere From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 6 09:17:37 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 10:17:37 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Resignation as Developer Liaison References: <42057A03.80708@physics.unimelb.edu.au> Message-ID: <4205E0B1.7000909@yahoo.com> Nod. We plan wikipedia to be there for a very very very long time. You may plan to be on Earth for at least 60 more years. I am sure you can take a "serious" break and come back. I miss you though :-( ant From elian at djini.de Sun Feb 6 12:05:49 2005 From: elian at djini.de (Elisabeth Bauer) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 13:05:49 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Resignation as Developer Liaison In-Reply-To: <42057A03.80708@physics.unimelb.edu.au> References: <42057A03.80708@physics.unimelb.edu.au> Message-ID: <4206081D.4000705@djini.de> Hiho, Tim Starling wrote: > When I was appointed Developer Liaison in July 2004, Brion was on a > wikibreak of indefinite duration, and I was the second choice. The roles > are now reversed -- I've decided to concentrate on my academic work for > a while, and Brion is as active as he ever has been. Thus, I am > resigning as Developer Liaison effective immediately. Saying the same like the ones who posted before: Many many thanks for all the good work you did and good luck for your PhD project. *missing you* elian -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 186 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20050206/dd01abdb/attachment-0001.pgp From christiaan at last-straw.net Sun Feb 6 16:39:39 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 16:39:39 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikinews logo - runoff to choose final version Message-ID: A runoff is being held to choose the new Wikinews logo. You can vote here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews_logo_contest_voting/Runoff Can someone please post this to the Wikinews mailing list? Christiaan From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 6 17:31:03 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 18:31:03 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Wikinews logo - runoff to choose final version References: Message-ID: <42065457.70602@yahoo.com> in a runoff vote, can we vote against a logo or only approve ? May we vote for only one or several logos ? Anthere Christiaan Briggs a ?crit: > A runoff is being held to choose the new Wikinews logo. You can vote here: > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews_logo_contest_voting/Runoff > > Can someone please post this to the Wikinews mailing list? > > Christiaan From erik_moeller at gmx.de Sun Feb 6 17:48:14 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 18:48:14 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Wikinews logo - runoff to choose final version In-Reply-To: <42065457.70602@yahoo.com> References: <42065457.70602@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4206585E.6040209@gmx.de> Anthere schrieb: > in a runoff vote, can we vote against a logo or only approve ? > May we vote for only one or several logos ? I've clarified the rules to say that you can vote for exactly one logo and against exactly one logo. Regards, Erik From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 6 18:01:58 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 19:01:58 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Wikinews logo - runoff to choose final version References: <42065457.70602@yahoo.com> <4206585E.6040209@gmx.de> Message-ID: <42065B96.6080500@yahoo.com> good, thanks Erik. Ant Erik Moeller a ?crit: > Anthere schrieb: > >> in a runoff vote, can we vote against a logo or only approve ? >> May we vote for only one or several logos ? > > > > I've clarified the rules to say that you can vote for exactly one logo > and against exactly one logo. > > Regards, > > Erik From erik_moeller at gmx.de Sun Feb 6 18:56:08 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 19:56:08 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikinews language creation rules modified Message-ID: <42066848.6000805@gmx.de> I have modified the rules at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews/Start_a_new_edition New: At least 3 signing users have to be Wikimedia regulars (>200 edits + 3 months participation in a project) in the language they vote on. Now formally written down: After creation, a message will be sent to wikinews-l, foundation-l and the Wikipedia Village Pump in that language. If these rules are acceptable, they should be merged into the policy for new languages. I also think the requirement of a "reporter" should be taken out, it seems somewhat over the top. On a different note, I am happy with the progress of the new editions. Swedish, Spanish and Dutch now have very professional looking homepages and a regular output of stories. Translation from one Wikinews edition into another seems to be more common than direct translation of Wikipedia articles. Regards, Erik From beesley at gmail.com Sun Feb 6 19:38:54 2005 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 19:38:54 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: promotional items (was no subject) In-Reply-To: <4205D4B9.1010402@yahoo.com> References: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> <4200F380.7030900@apotheon.com> <42048736.1000801@yahoo.com> <8b722b8005020508035869b755@mail.gmail.com> <4205D4B9.1010402@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8b722b80050206113816d25f88@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 09:26:33 +0100, Anthere wrote: > I would prefer that this is done on meta rather than foundation. The point of having it on the foundation wiki is that it would be very easy to add to the whitelist the filetypes which the leaflets and presentations are in, since only trusted users can upload there. On Meta, anyone can upload files, so it is less likely that these filetypes would be whitelisted there. > Besides, there are two few people registered on the foundation for this > to be correct. > If necessary, we can limit this ability to sysops only on meta. There are 41 users on the foundation wiki and 44 admins on meta, so even if there was a way to limit uploading of certain file types to admins, it wouldn't make much different in terms of the number of people able to do this. Angela. From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 6 19:54:04 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 20:54:04 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: promotional items (was no subject) References: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> <4200F380.7030900@apotheon.com> <42048736.1000801@yahoo.com> <8b722b8005020508035869b755@mail.gmail.com> <4205D4B9.1010402@yahoo.com> <8b722b80050206113816d25f88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <420675DC.4000001@yahoo.com> Angela a ?crit: > On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 09:26:33 +0100, Anthere wrote: > >>I would prefer that this is done on meta rather than foundation. > > > The point of having it on the foundation wiki is that it would be very > easy to add to the whitelist the filetypes which the leaflets and > presentations are in, since only trusted users can upload there. On > Meta, anyone can upload files, so it is less likely that these > filetypes would be whitelisted there. I understand that. >>Besides, there are two few people registered on the foundation for this >>to be correct. >>If necessary, we can limit this ability to sysops only on meta. > > > There are 41 users on the foundation wiki and 44 admins on meta, so > even if there was a way to limit uploading of certain file types to > admins, it wouldn't make much different in terms of the number of > people able to do this. > > Angela. I understand that as well, but I think meta is the place where we organise things all together. Not foundation. I wish we stick to what sites are made for. Second point : I do not think we should necessarily restrict communication handling to those part of foundation (hence with an account). Foundation is here to help wikipedia and related projects to develop, not to to handle their promotion. I think we should not do anything that might lead promotion to be only made by foundation people. People should feel entitled to do so. Third point : I just do not understand why editors could not just upload these files on meta; I see not where the risk is. Basically, if we have room on servers, why could not we simply host these files ? Why do we need to restrict this ? Where is the problem ? Ant From beesley at gmail.com Sun Feb 6 20:06:56 2005 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 20:06:56 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: promotional items (was no subject) In-Reply-To: <420675DC.4000001@yahoo.com> References: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> <4200F380.7030900@apotheon.com> <42048736.1000801@yahoo.com> <8b722b8005020508035869b755@mail.gmail.com> <4205D4B9.1010402@yahoo.com> <8b722b80050206113816d25f88@mail.gmail.com> <420675DC.4000001@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8b722b80050206120659273138@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 20:54:04 +0100, Anthere wrote: > I do not think we should necessarily restrict > communication handling to those part of foundation (hence with an account). I agree that we shouldn't restrict communication handling to those with accounts on the foundation wiki. It is just the upload of certain file types which are currently disallowed that we should be restricting. It is only the files themselves which would be uploaded by people on that wiki. Any discussion of them etc can happen on meta. > Basically, if we have room on servers, why could not we simply host > these files ? Why do we need to restrict this ? Where is the problem ? We can host them. We just can't allow anyone to upload potentially dangerous files. See Brion's email on this when pdf was first disallowed: http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2004-September/025472.html Angela. From robert_horning at netzero.net Sun Feb 6 20:45:12 2005 From: robert_horning at netzero.net (Robert Scott Horning) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 13:45:12 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikistandards (was Requests for new Wiki projects) References: Message-ID: <420681D8.2080602@netzero.net> C T wrote: >I am finding the real trick is to getting people involved. I have over a >year left in this academic program, and a lot can be accomplished in that >time frame. Especially with a classroom of participants. > >Besides this class and several others are in serious need of an educational >tool. To be apart of creating such a resource would have tremendous >benefits. > >If we build it, can it be integrated with something larger? > >Thanks, >Craig > > > The big advantage that working with a project like this, hosted by the Wikimedia foundation (or some other 3rd party), is that even when you move on to bigger and better things in your career, the items that you work on here will still be around. I have been involved with too many university or college projects that are really quite neat, but because of changes in administration policy, students graduating, or professors retiring, the servers that host these projects get turned off and the information from the project lost. The "Big Picture" of what I'm trying to do with Wikistandards is to provide resources that you don't have to pay extra money for just to be able to "peek" into how something works. From my experience, the more open and publicized a standard becomes, and the easier that a company or group of individuals has to be able to find and implement that standard, the more likely it will be used. Unfortunately there are a number of people who for various reasons want to shut down the spreading of knowledge, particularly hard-won engineering knowledge that is often supplied in standards documentation. It is also seldom, because of NDAs and quite expensive standards documents, that these propritary documents will make it into an educational setting. From the prespective of an instructor, it would still be useful to create specifications and standards documents in a classroom setting for projects that the class is working on. By having a resource like this where these standards are archived, students from other classs, or even other universities, could look at these ideas and build upon them. In some cases, perhaps you want to simplify a specification for a classroom setting to make it easier to implement, or to emphasis a particular design approach. Besides, there are many situations even in private industry where you are struggling to find and define standards for a project similar to what you are working on. Even if the standards document is poorly designed, it at least gives a starting point to start arguing what changes should be made and what things to improve. There is nothing worse than having a totally blank piece of paper and no previous experience to draw upon. I hope this is the "something larger" that you were looking for. I see a huge need for this as a commercial application engineer, and while my employers were willing to pay for ISO standards, it was still a major hassle to go through the red tape to get them purchased, especially since they were often viewed as a "capital expense" like paying for new compilers or design tools. While I see the industrial applications on a project like this, I can also see huge benefits from having educational institutions participate as well. I also want to point out that most of the early RFCs that form the foundation of the internet were written by college students, including undergraduates as well as grad students. Wouldn't it be neat if we could help become a catalyst for something else like the internet? -- Robert Scott Horning From christiaan at last-straw.net Sun Feb 6 21:51:43 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 21:51:43 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Script for transferring images from Wikipedia to Commons Message-ID: <4A66FE7C-7889-11D9-B1F0-0030658430F4@last-straw.net> Does anyone know how we go about getting this script implemented? http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Transfer_script Can you add any thoughts to the talk page rather than here? Thanks, Christiaan From erik_moeller at gmx.de Sun Feb 6 22:28:36 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 23:28:36 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Bulgarian Wikinews launched Message-ID: <42069A14.5090901@gmx.de> The Bulgarian edition of Wikinews is now set up at: http://bg.wikinews.org/ An announcement has been posted on the Bulgarian Wikipedia Village Pump, as well as on the user talk pages of all interested users (all users who signed up had user pages on bg:, and several had far more than 200 edits). I'd like to ask the Board to discuss in the meeting tomorrow what steps are required to decide whether the Chinese Wikinews should be launched. Regards, Erik From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Sun Feb 6 22:37:42 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 09:37:42 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: promotional items (was no subject) In-Reply-To: <8b722b80050206120659273138@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> <4200F380.7030900@apotheon.com> <42048736.1000801@yahoo.com> <8b722b8005020508035869b755@mail.gmail.com> <4205D4B9.1010402@yahoo.com> <8b722b80050206113816d25f88@mail.gmail.com> <420675DC.4000001@yahoo.com> <8b722b80050206120659273138@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050206223741.GD7930@thingy.apana.org.au> Angela (beesley at gmail.com) [050207 07:07]: > We can host them. We just can't allow anyone to upload potentially > dangerous files. See Brion's email on this when pdf was first > disallowed: http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2004-September/025472.html Oh, good lord. TEXT is forbidden?! /me curses IE's crackmonkey authors Looks like if I want SVG uploads on Commons I'll need to write a mathematically-watertight validity checker myself. Barring no new exploits found that use perfectly valid SVG files. Grah! - d. From brion at pobox.com Mon Feb 7 01:14:56 2005 From: brion at pobox.com (Brion Vibber) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 17:14:56 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: promotional items (was no subject) In-Reply-To: <8b722b8005020508035869b755@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> <4200F380.7030900@apotheon.com> <42048736.1000801@yahoo.com> <8b722b8005020508035869b755@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4206C110.8060601@pobox.com> Angela wrote: >>I would like that a little bit of room is planned on one of wikimedia >>servers to host all these promotional things. >>Second we need to have a way to upload this data on the server. > > I completely agree. An easy way to implement this might be to extend > the range of files on the upload whitelist for the foundation wiki. > Since only trusted users can edit there, enabling .pdf, .ppt, and .sxi > shouldn't cause any problems, and would allow anyone with an account > there to upload leaflets and presentations. .pdf and .sxi are on the upload whitelist for all Wikimedia wikis and have been for some time. -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 253 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20050206/f1cd7b7c/attachment-0001.pgp From nsk2 at wikinerds.org Mon Feb 7 04:22:16 2005 From: nsk2 at wikinerds.org (NSK) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 06:22:16 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Copyright Message-ID: <200502070622.16462.nsk2@wikinerds.org> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:HURD_first_program_banner.jpg "This image or document is licensed under a Creative Commons License. Specifically, it is licensed under the Creative Commons ShareAlike License, colloquially known as "cc-sa"." I don't know where you found that it is CC-SA (BTW this isn't the licence a use), but if you somehow derived this info from my article, then please take a closer look and ensure you understood it right: http://portal.wikinerds.org/gnu-hurd-l4-first-program This image was found on http://www.marcus-brinkmann.org/banner.jpg I asked Marcus via email and he had no problem to use the pic on my site. I also asked at gnu.org about the Hurd logo and they told me it's freely redistributable. On the copyright notices posted on my article I say that only the text is CC-By-SA-2, the images are fair use. Please note that notices in individual articles override site-wide notices. In addition, my site is in a transitional period as we just started to allow multilicensing and using a page-based copyright scheme. Also, it would be better to cite as source the brinkmann's site and not my site, since I also got it from there. -- NSK http://portal.wikinerds.org/slashdotting2005feb4 From slowpoke at gmail.com Mon Feb 7 04:28:11 2005 From: slowpoke at gmail.com (Dori) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 22:28:11 -0600 Subject: [Foundation-l] Copyright In-Reply-To: <200502070622.16462.nsk2@wikinerds.org> References: <200502070622.16462.nsk2@wikinerds.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 06:22:16 +0200, NSK wrote: > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:HURD_first_program_banner.jpg You could't mention this at the page? I don't see how it's a foundation issue. -- [[en:User:Dori]] From anthere9 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 05:00:11 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 06:00:11 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: promotional items (was no subject) References: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> <4200F380.7030900@apotheon.com> <42048736.1000801@yahoo.com> <8b722b8005020508035869b755@mail.gmail.com> <4206C110.8060601@pobox.com> Message-ID: <4206F5DB.1090708@yahoo.com> Brion Vibber a ?crit: > Angela wrote: > >>> I would like that a little bit of room is planned on one of wikimedia >>> servers to host all these promotional things. >>> Second we need to have a way to upload this data on the server. >> >> >> I completely agree. An easy way to implement this might be to extend >> the range of files on the upload whitelist for the foundation wiki. >> Since only trusted users can edit there, enabling .pdf, .ppt, and .sxi >> shouldn't cause any problems, and would allow anyone with an account >> there to upload leaflets and presentations. > > > .pdf and .sxi are on the upload whitelist for all Wikimedia wikis and > have been for some time. > > -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com) Okay, rrrrright. Well... Anyone interested by illustrator or xpress or high quality pdf files for business cards, high resolution logos and leaflets, as well as ppt presentation may contact me by mail and we'll figure out how to send 20 mb files by mail. From anthere9 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 05:02:52 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 06:02:52 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Bulgarian Wikinews launched References: <42069A14.5090901@gmx.de> Message-ID: <4206F67C.8030505@yahoo.com> Erik Moeller a ?crit: > The Bulgarian edition of Wikinews is now set up at: > > http://bg.wikinews.org/ > > An announcement has been posted on the Bulgarian Wikipedia Village Pump, > as well as on the user talk pages of all interested users (all users who > signed up had user pages on bg:, and several had far more than 200 edits). > > I'd like to ask the Board to discuss in the meeting tomorrow what steps > are required to decide whether the Chinese Wikinews should be launched. I am quite certain we will not have time this evening. There are topics which are much more urgent to fix. I would appreciate that you do not launch chinese wikinews without more discussion. The failure of french launching is enough in one month. > Regards, > > Erik From anthere9 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 05:14:46 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 06:14:46 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: promotional items (was no subject) References: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> <4200F380.7030900@apotheon.com> <42048736.1000801@yahoo.com> <8b722b8005020508035869b755@mail.gmail.com> <4206C110.8060601@pobox.com> <4206F5DB.1090708@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4206F946.40103@yahoo.com> Anthere a ?crit: >> .pdf and .sxi are on the upload whitelist for all Wikimedia wikis and >> have been for some time. >> >> -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com) oh, and, brion, what is sxi extension for ? Ant From nsk2 at wikinerds.org Mon Feb 7 05:35:50 2005 From: nsk2 at wikinerds.org (NSK) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 07:35:50 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: promotional items (was no subject) In-Reply-To: <4206F946.40103@yahoo.com> References: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> <4206F5DB.1090708@yahoo.com> <4206F946.40103@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200502070735.50907.nsk2@wikinerds.org> On Monday 07 February 2005 07:14, Anthere wrote: > oh, and, brion, what is sxi extension for ? It's OpenOffice.org 1.x Presentation -- NSK http://portal.wikinerds.org/slashdotting2005feb4 From erik_moeller at gmx.de Mon Feb 7 06:25:20 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 07:25:20 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Bulgarian Wikinews launched In-Reply-To: <4206F67C.8030505@yahoo.com> References: <42069A14.5090901@gmx.de> <4206F67C.8030505@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <420709D0.3060709@gmx.de> Ant- > I am quite certain we will not have time this evening. There are > topics which are much more urgent to fix. Do we even need board approval for this? Perhaps a community vote on what should be done would be sufficient: 1) Launch the project under the same conditions as all others 2) Only launch it if a majority of Chinese language community supports it 3) Only launch it if a majority of global user community supports it 4) ...? > The failure of french launching is enough in one month. No delay would have changed the fact that there is more opposition to Wikinews in the French language community than in others. That makes it obviously more difficult to promote the project, and contributors may feel less comfortable working for it if they feel its very existence is threatened. It's also true that the time spent on the flamewar about the French Wikinews could have been spent building it. So, the Swedes (90 articles! I hope they aren't copyvios), the Spanish and the Dutch have a bit of a headstart, but I'm confident that the French community will eventually build a truly great resource at fr.wikinews.org. If you can help in promoting the project, that would be appreciated. Regards, Erik From walter at vankalken.net Mon Feb 7 06:31:25 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 13:31:25 +0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] tonight? In-Reply-To: <420709D0.3060709@gmx.de> References: <42069A14.5090901@gmx.de> <4206F67C.8030505@yahoo.com> <420709D0 .3060709@gmx.de> Message-ID: <42070B3D.2000300@vankalken.net> What time is the IRC meeting planned for? Waerth/Walter van Kalken From beesley at gmail.com Mon Feb 7 06:41:52 2005 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 06:41:52 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] tonight? In-Reply-To: <42070B3D.2000300@vankalken.net> References: <42069A14.5090901@gmx.de> <4206F67C.8030505@yahoo.com> <420709D0.3060709@gmx.de> <42070B3D.2000300@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <8b722b80050206224178397733@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 13:31:25 +0700, Walter van Kalken wrote: > What time is the IRC meeting planned for? If you mean the board meeting, it's at 9pm (UTC). It wasn't being publicly advertised though, since the main point on the agenda regards a hosting offer we need to discuss, and we have been asked to keep the exact terms of this confidential for now. There will be a second board meeting this month (possibly around the 19th?). If there are no objections from the other members of the board, this one could be made open, as most of our meetings are. Angela. From beesley at gmail.com Mon Feb 7 06:47:22 2005 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 06:47:22 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Bulgarian Wikinews launched In-Reply-To: <420709D0.3060709@gmx.de> References: <42069A14.5090901@gmx.de> <4206F67C.8030505@yahoo.com> <420709D0.3060709@gmx.de> Message-ID: <8b722b80050206224761f51407@mail.gmail.com> Erik Moeller wrote regarding Chinese Wikinews: > Do we even need board approval for this? Perhaps a community vote on > what should be done would be sufficient: > 1) Launch the project under the same conditions as all others > 2) Only launch it if a majority of Chinese language community supports it > 3) Only launch it if a majority of global user community supports it > 4) ...? If board approval is needed, a global discussion (and possibly a poll) would be useful in informing our decision, so either way, I think the next step is for this to take place, rather than for it to be discussed at today's meeting. Angela. From anthere9 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 06:53:55 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 07:53:55 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Bulgarian Wikinews launched References: <42069A14.5090901@gmx.de> <4206F67C.8030505@yahoo.com> <420709D0.3060709@gmx.de> Message-ID: <42071083.7090606@yahoo.com> Erik Moeller a ?crit: > Ant- > >> I am quite certain we will not have time this evening. There are >> topics which are much more urgent to fix. > > > Do we even need board approval for this? Perhaps a community vote on > what should be done would be sufficient: > > 1) Launch the project under the same conditions as all others > 2) Only launch it if a majority of Chinese language community supports it > 3) Only launch it if a majority of global user community supports it > 4) ...? If you desire it so. But given the general opposition of the chinese community, it would be nice to ask them their opinion, even though a couple of people are asking for it. >> The failure of french launching is enough in one month. > > > No delay would have changed the fact that there is more opposition to > Wikinews in the French language community than in others. It would have made a difference. Many french are not opposed strictly, but think it is too early. So, a delay would have been a good thing. That makes it > obviously more difficult to promote the project, and contributors may > feel less comfortable working for it if they feel its very existence is > threatened. I see not why they feel its existence is threatened. They simply do not work on it because they are not interested. It's also true that the time spent on the flamewar about the > French Wikinews could have been spent building it. I do not think so, you and I are not contributors to it :-) Neither is notafish :-) So, the Swedes (90 > articles! I hope they aren't copyvios), the Spanish and the Dutch have a > bit of a headstart, but I'm confident that the French community will > eventually build a truly great resource at fr.wikinews.org. If you can > help in promoting the project, that would be appreciated. Sorry, I am rather busy trying to explain journalists the great idea behind it. Last week, I explained it to Les Echos (http://www.lesechos.fr/). I would have preferred talking to them about a successful project such as wikipedia :-) > Regards, > > Erik From erik_moeller at gmx.de Mon Feb 7 06:59:27 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 07:59:27 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Bulgarian Wikinews launched In-Reply-To: <42071083.7090606@yahoo.com> References: <42069A14.5090901@gmx.de> <4206F67C.8030505@yahoo.com> <420709D0.3060709@gmx.de> <42071083.7090606@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <420711CF.70206@gmx.de> Anthere- > > It would have made a difference. We'll just have to agree to disagree about that. Regards, Erik From anthere9 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 06:57:28 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 07:57:28 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Bulgarian Wikinews launched References: <42069A14.5090901@gmx.de> <4206F67C.8030505@yahoo.com> <420709D0.3060709@gmx.de> <8b722b80050206224761f51407@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42071158.9010001@yahoo.com> Angela a ?crit: > Erik Moeller wrote regarding Chinese Wikinews: > > >>Do we even need board approval for this? Perhaps a community vote on >>what should be done would be sufficient: >>1) Launch the project under the same conditions as all others >>2) Only launch it if a majority of Chinese language community supports it >>3) Only launch it if a majority of global user community supports it >>4) ...? > > > If board approval is needed, a global discussion (and possibly a poll) > would be useful in informing our decision, so either way, I think the > next step is for this to take place, rather than for it to be > discussed at today's meeting. > > Angela. agreed From erik_moeller at gmx.de Mon Feb 7 07:40:21 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 08:40:21 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Poll on Chinese Wikinews launch Message-ID: <42071B65.7010102@gmx.de> I've set up a poll at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews/China to help decide whether we need a formal vote among the Chinese users or all users before launching the Chinese Wikinews edition (because of the risk of censorship). Please vote. Regards, Erik From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Mon Feb 7 15:41:57 2005 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:41:57 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: promotional items (was no subject) In-Reply-To: <4206F5DB.1090708@yahoo.com> References: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> <4200F380.7030900@apotheon.com> <42048736.1000801@yahoo.com> <8b722b8005020508035869b755@mail.gmail.com> <4206C110.8060601@pobox.com> <4206F5DB.1090708@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <742dfd0605020707414b3388d2@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 06:00:11 +0100, Anthere wrote: > Well... > > Anyone interested by illustrator or xpress or high quality pdf files for > business cards, high resolution logos and leaflets, as well as ppt > presentation may contact me by mail and we'll figure out how to send 20 > mb files by mail. I have about a gig of web-accessible space on my machine you can use to store files; can you use FTP to upload them to me? You can also mail anything smaller than 5MB to this gmail account... -- +sj+ From robert_horning at netzero.net Mon Feb 7 19:18:51 2005 From: robert_horning at netzero.net (Robert Scott Horning) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 12:18:51 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikistandards References: Message-ID: <4207BF1B.7030902@netzero.net> C T wrote: >Our class has studied or is studying > >Electrical Theory 1 & 2 >Semiconductors 1 >Digital Devices 1 > >Does Wikistandards cover these topics? > >Where can I veiw the efforts already engaged? > >Thanks, >Craig > > > I think you are mistaking the purpose of what we are doing here. You originally proposed: "A place to gather international standards for electricity, electronics, and robotics. Instead of paying large sums of money to the IEEE and ISO for access to their standards." And I was pointing out that I had a similar effort that was more broadly based as a generic standards repository, that would obviously include international standards for these specific areas you mentioned. Trying to start up a new project is obviously challenging, if only to gather supporters together. I've been working on this proposal since August, and in truth I've been working on variations of something like this for almost five years. This isn't something that will happen immediately. The Wikimedia Foundation is not here to host just any project, but to foster new projects that are in harmony with the other projects that are here. A quick look at the list of proposed projects shows about fifty (50) different projects that have been proposed, most of them over the past year or so on the current list. There are only six major projects and four others that are still struggling trying to get going. Of those four, two are showing signs of trouble, Wikispecies and the 9-11 Memorial, because of various internal problems and its limited scope. (I am ignoring Meta and the Foundation websites as special creatures in their own right). In addition, the Wikimedia Foundation put up a new policy regarding how to start a new project, and so far there has not even been a single project that has been approved through this new process (based largely on how the Wikinews project was put together, and to avoid the pitfalls of projects like Wikispecies). If there is some momentum here, I'd like to see if we can get Wikistandards to be approved by this process, but it isn't going to happen any time very soon. At a minimum two to three months, perhaps even longer if just to see if we can get some community support. In short, I don't have any specific resources to put forward that would be able deal with the electronics theory concepts that you are suggesting, although there are some items in Wikibooks that might be of some use to you right now. If you know of some standards documents involving electronics that we might be able to put together, it would be appreciated. One thing I would have appreciated years ago when I was taking some Electrical Engineering classes was a book or guide to 7400-series digital logic chips. You can get this information often from chip manufactures, but an objective guide would have some value on its own. Please let me know if you have anything currently, or something that you are debating about in class right now that could be included. -- Robert Scott Horning From robert_horning at netzero.net Mon Feb 7 19:47:04 2005 From: robert_horning at netzero.net (Robert Scott Horning) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 12:47:04 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Project Proposal Demo Pages Message-ID: <4207C5B8.5050403@netzero.net> I've been working on a new project proposal, and I've considered trying to demonstrate what the site would look like by creating a few wiki pages and putting a little content together. Rather than going through the whole hassle of trying physically setting up the website as a demo on my own server, and because I don't have a 24/7 internet connection at the moment, I'd like to demonstrate what I think the website could look like by setting up some content pages demonstrating the concept. Right now, I've put together the following page: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/WikiStandards Before I start really pushing forward and adding content, I wanted to ask the foundation community if this is an acceptable practice, and just where, perhaps, I should put this content. While I started this on Wikibooks, now that I've been reflecting on this a little bit I'm thinking this perhaps should be on meta for now, simply because this really is a different thing and is a project proposal. If it is acceptable to do something like this, I'd also like some guidelines regarding mainly how much content should be on a demo site like this. Obviously this is something that is just starting out, but I also don't intend to make this a working sub project either and treating this as a fully-funtional wiki in its own right. In this case I think it will be easier for me to explain what I am proposing by actually showing real content and how it could be useful to the Wikimedia community in general. If the project gets approved, it would also be a good way to seed the new project right away. I'm also suggesing a minor change to the new proposal policy and making a demo project as a part of the proposal process. Obviously if there are software changes that have to be made this can't be done on the demo side, but a great deal can be done with the tools already available. For most of the proposed projects, it would show if it is a serious proposal or simply some wishful thinking that you had daydreaming one night. -- Robert Scott Horning From maveric149 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 19:53:07 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:53:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikistandards In-Reply-To: <4207BF1B.7030902@netzero.net> Message-ID: <20050207195307.29515.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Robert Scott Horning wrote: > In addition, the Wikimedia Foundation put up a new policy regarding how > to start a new project, and so far there has not even been a single > project that has been approved through this new process (based largely > on how the Wikinews project was put together, and to avoid the pitfalls > of projects like Wikispecies). If there is some momentum here, I'd like > to see if we can get Wikistandards to be approved by this process, but > it isn't going to happen any time very soon. At a minimum two to three > months, perhaps even longer if just to see if we can get some community > support. I think Wikistandards is a neat idea for a project and its general (meaning all inclusive in terms of what standards are allowed) scope along with its inherent importance will make for a viable project. Neat name too, btw. :) However, I still don't know if this is a good fit for the foundation (just because it is a good idea, does not necessarily mean we should host it), so some reasoning in that regard is needed. I'm also *very* worried by copyright and especially business practice patents that may be easily infringed in such a project. So I'd like to hear from a patent lawyer about that or at least somebody who knows a lot about this type of thing and how patents and copyright apply to standards. So, yes, a good deal more groundwork is needed. But I think we are on the right track. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From maveric149 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 20:00:45 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 12:00:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Project Proposal Demo Pages In-Reply-To: <4207C5B8.5050403@netzero.net> Message-ID: <20050207200045.61309.qmail@web51609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Robert Scott Horning wrote: > Before I start really pushing forward and adding content, I wanted to > ask the foundation community if this is an acceptable practice, and just > where, perhaps, I should put this content. While I started this on > Wikibooks, now that I've been reflecting on this a little bit I'm > thinking this perhaps should be on meta for now, simply because this > really is a different thing and is a project proposal. Please only add books you intend to actually become books on Wikibooks. If this is just a mock up, then Meta is a better place. Just use subpages. :) > I'm also suggesing a minor change to the new proposal policy and making > a demo project as a part of the proposal process. Obviously if there > are software changes that have to be made this can't be done on the demo > side, but a great deal can be done with the tools already available. > For most of the proposed projects, it would show if it is a serious > proposal or simply some wishful thinking that you had daydreaming one night. Sounds like a good idea. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From robert_horning at netzero.net Mon Feb 7 20:45:58 2005 From: robert_horning at netzero.net (Robert Scott Horning) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 13:45:58 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikistandards References: <20050207195307.29515.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4207D386.5080103@netzero.net> Daniel Mayer wrote: >--- Robert Scott Horning wrote: > > >>In addition, the Wikimedia Foundation put up a new policy regarding how >>to start a new project, and so far there has not even been a single >>project that has been approved through this new process (based largely >>on how the Wikinews project was put together, and to avoid the pitfalls >>of projects like Wikispecies). If there is some momentum here, I'd like >>to see if we can get Wikistandards to be approved by this process, but >>it isn't going to happen any time very soon. At a minimum two to three >>months, perhaps even longer if just to see if we can get some community >>support. >> >> > >I think Wikistandards is a neat idea for a project and its general (meaning all >inclusive in terms of what standards are allowed) scope along with its inherent >importance will make for a viable project. Neat name too, btw. :) > >However, I still don't know if this is a good fit for the foundation (just >because it is a good idea, does not necessarily mean we should host it), so >some reasoning in that regard is needed. > >I'm also *very* worried by copyright and especially business practice patents >that may be easily infringed in such a project. So I'd like to hear from a >patent lawyer about that or at least somebody who knows a lot about this type >of thing and how patents and copyright apply to standards. > >So, yes, a good deal more groundwork is needed. But I think we are on the right >track. > >-- mav > > As I indicated earlier, I don't think copyright is that big of an issue. If it doesn't fit with the GFDL, it should be removed just like anything that is posted on Wikipedia. I think there is going to be far more problems of copyright violation with Wikipedia then we will ever have with something like Wikistandards. I'm pushing for already open/free standards to be hosted here, not existing copyrighted standards. If people want to use those copyrighted standards documents, they should pay for them from the sources that already are dealing with them. Business practice patents and software patents are huge legal grey areas anyway and are causing legal grief elsewhere. I would have to agree that the Wikimedia Foundation does need to consider the potential legal consequences of hosting a project like this one, and the potential for legal restraining orders and arrest of participants. On the whole, I hope I havn't been scaring too many people with these legal threats, and I believe that the potential for legal issues is roughly identical as with other projects hosted by the Wikimedia Foundation. The reverse engineering documents are a bit of an issue, and an acceptable policy in the beginning would (IMHO) be to simply not allow these documents for roughly a year, then bring the issue up in the community and get some input if they are ever allowed, when, and how. There are far too many good things that can be developed and are being developed that can be hosted to let this issue be the setback. A standards document that is being developed as a totally new concept should in theory be free of these issues. As far as the Wikimedia Foundation is concerned, they are simply hosting content where the information is stored. There are increased legal problems for people who attempt to implement the information in the standards (create their own Ogg Vorbis player, as an example), but it could be demonstrated that the Wikimedia Foundation is innocent of violating the patents as all that was done is publishing documentation that has copyright clearance (either public domain or released under the GFDL). In short, I see a much bigger problem with libel issues arising from Wikinews than anything Wikistandards would come up with. And this is just as big of a deal with Wikibooks if somebody describes how to implement a patented process in one of the book modules. As an example, CompuServ created the GIF image standard years ago and published the specification, even granting the right to republish the document freely. This would even be a document that we could put into Wikistandards as an acceptable document. When Unisys came forward claiming patent violation due to the LZW algorithm patent, all that it did was affect anybody that used GIF images for content. Anybody that wanted to was still free to publish the specification document itself. The patent enforcement essentially killed the specification standard as far as anybody using it, but that didn't stop people from talking about how it worked and trying to re-implement a new version that avoided the patent issues, as was done when the PNG specification was created. In comparison, the DVD CSS lawsuits were done due to a group reverse engineering an existing specification. With a lot of hard work by some very intelligent people, the specific algorithm that was used to encrypt DVD-Video discs was discovered and an implementation of it in the form of the deCSS program was published. The legal issues involved with this are still unsettled, although the copyright and EULA issues were all dropped because the copyright status of deCSS was quite clear. All that remains now is to decide if it is legal to reverse engineer something that is a trade secret, and if that trade secret status remains after the information has been widely published from a reverse engineering effort. This is more of why I think reverse engineering specs should be kept off for now. As a citizen I think it is incredibly stupid that the courts should rule against specification of these sort, but it isn't my money or reputation on the line if the Wikimedia Foundation gets pulled in. -- Robert Scott Horning 218 Sunstone Circle Logan, UT 84321 (435) 753-3330 robert_horning at netzero.net From anthere9 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 23:20:52 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 00:20:52 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: promotional items (was no subject) References: <20050202055907.14259.qmail@web41810.mail.yahoo.com> <4200F380.7030900@apotheon.com> <42048736.1000801@yahoo.com> <8b722b8005020508035869b755@mail.gmail.com> <4206C110.8060601@pobox.com> <4206F5DB.1090708@yahoo.com> <742dfd0605020707414b3388d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4207F7D4.5080108@yahoo.com> Sj a ?crit: > On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 06:00:11 +0100, Anthere wrote: > >>Well... >> >>Anyone interested by illustrator or xpress or high quality pdf files for >>business cards, high resolution logos and leaflets, as well as ppt >>presentation may contact me by mail and we'll figure out how to send 20 >>mb files by mail. > > > I have about a gig of web-accessible space on my machine you can use > to store files; > can you use FTP to upload them to me? You can also mail anything > smaller than 5MB to this gmail account... > Thanks I will explore feasability in the next few days. The files are over 10 MB... My first move will be to post the remaining printed leaflets to Walter, so that they can be available for FOSDEM. This is more important, and slow postal travel will be less expensive. I am glad it will be a ressource over there :-) I may be little online in the next days I think, because I fear I got the flu. Feels like getting under cover. Ant From beesley at gmail.com Tue Feb 8 03:09:43 2005 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 03:09:43 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia budget for Q1, 2005 Message-ID: <8b722b8005020719092709f299@mail.gmail.com> A finance meeting was held on IRC today with four members of the Board, and Daniel Mayer. Please see http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/foundation/d/d8/WikimediaBankHistory2004.pdf for the budget details. An open general meeting will be held in #meeting.wikimedia on February 15. All are welcome to attend this to discuss the topics listed at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board_agenda Below is a summary of today's meeting. The full details of this will be posted at http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Meetings/February_7%2C_2005 as soon as Anthere and Jimbo approve them. *A budget for $130000 was approved *A fundraising drive to raise $75000 will take place for 3 weeks starting 18 February *Jimmy is discussing hiring options with Brion Vibber *The Google hosting proposal is being discussed this week *GuruNet will donate ?30,000 towards the Wikimania conference The following budget was approved for this quarter: Servers/Hardware (base) $35,000.00 Extra hardware/dev projects $20,000.00 Grant hardware $40,000.00 Grant special projects $0.00 Hosting $16,000.00 Travel $5,000.00 Domain names $500.00 Office expenses $2,500.00 Miscellaneous $1,000.00 Developer pay $8,000.00 Fundraising/Promotional $500.00 Hardware assistant $1,500.00 TOTAL $130,000.00 Needed in fund drive $75,000.00 Angela Beesley From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Tue Feb 8 03:10:10 2005 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 22:10:10 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Budget for Q1 2005 approved; fundraising drive planned Message-ID: <742dfd06050207191057f7d2cd@mail.gmail.com> Word on the street is that CFO Daniel Mayer pushed through another difficult budget package at this evening's board meeting, with bipartisan support (that is, from les deux partis"An") : Hardware: $75K* Extra hardware/dev projects: $20K** Hosting: $16K Developer contract: $8K*** Travel: $5K Office expenses: $2.5K Hardware assistance $1.5K Domain names: $500 Fundraising/Promotion: $500 Miscellaneous: $1K TOTAL $130K * $40K of which is explicitly covered by a recent grant from the Lounsbery Foundation. ** If we meet our fundraising goal; shortfalls will come out of this line iteml *** Being negotiated; to cover part-time work and perhaps bounties. More on meta: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_budget/2005/Q1 ==Fundraising Drive== We will have a fundraiser for three weeks starting Friday, Feb 18; and hope to raise $75k. Discussion of how to display and broadcast the drive is welcome. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising Here is the discussion from last September's fundraising meeting : http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_meeting%2C_September_2004 -- +sj+ From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Tue Feb 8 03:10:45 2005 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 22:10:45 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia budget for Q1, 2005 In-Reply-To: <8b722b8005020719092709f299@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b8005020719092709f299@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <742dfd060502071910674cceda@mail.gmail.com> Jinx and a coke :-) On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 03:09:43 +0000, Angela wrote: > A finance meeting was held on IRC today with four members of the > Board, and Daniel Mayer. > > Please see http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/foundation/d/d8/WikimediaBankHistory2004.pdf > for the budget details. > > An open general meeting will be held in #meeting.wikimedia on February > 15. All are welcome to attend this to discuss the topics listed at > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board_agenda > > Below is a summary of today's meeting. The full details of this will > be posted at http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Meetings/February_7%2C_2005 > as soon as Anthere and Jimbo approve them. > > *A budget for $130000 was approved > *A fundraising drive to raise $75000 will take place for 3 weeks > starting 18 February > *Jimmy is discussing hiring options with Brion Vibber > *The Google hosting proposal is being discussed this week > *GuruNet will donate ?30,000 towards the Wikimania conference > > The following budget was approved for this quarter: > Servers/Hardware (base) $35,000.00 > Extra hardware/dev projects $20,000.00 > Grant hardware $40,000.00 > Grant special projects $0.00 > Hosting $16,000.00 > Travel $5,000.00 > Domain names $500.00 > Office expenses $2,500.00 > Miscellaneous $1,000.00 > Developer pay $8,000.00 > Fundraising/Promotional $500.00 > Hardware assistant $1,500.00 > TOTAL $130,000.00 > Needed in fund drive $75,000.00 > > Angela Beesley > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > -- +sj+ _ _ :-------.-.--------.--.--------.-.--------.--.--------[...] From maveric149 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 8 06:47:01 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 22:47:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia budget for Q1, 2005 In-Reply-To: <8b722b8005020719092709f299@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050208064701.96651.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Angela wrote: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/foundation/d/d8/WikimediaBankHistory2004.pdf > for the budget details. Actually that is the full bank history for 2004. :) Jimmy still needs to look it over one last time to make sure I didn't miscategorize anything. Also, the CafePress item needs to be separated from the other income sources. We in fact received $994.86 worth of checks from CafePress last year. These were almost certainly lumped together with checks from donors and classified as "mail donations". This needs to be fixed before we give this to a tax person and I've alredy sent an email to Jimbo to see when these checks were deposited. -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From maveric149 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 8 07:07:48 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 23:07:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia budget for Q1, 2005 In-Reply-To: <8b722b8005020719092709f299@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050208070748.89742.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> Opps! I forgot to mention that the reason the Moneybookers income item is $0 is due to the fact that, AFAIK, we have not transfered any money out of it - ever. I also have no idea how much we have in that account (just something I don't bug Jimbo about). Last info I had was at the end of the last official fund drive http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2004/Q4 . I would be very surprised if we had more than $2000 in that account now. There is also *much* work that needs to be done to plan and coordinate the next fund drive. Expect an email from me about this in a day or two. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From saintonge at telus.net Tue Feb 8 18:07:11 2005 From: saintonge at telus.net (Ray Saintonge) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 10:07:11 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikistandards In-Reply-To: <20050207195307.29515.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050207195307.29515.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4208FFCF.2020000@telus.net> Daniel Mayer wrote: >inclusive in terms of what standards are allowed) scope along with its inherent >importance will make for a viable project. Neat name too, btw. :) > >However, I still don't know if this is a good fit for the foundation (just >because it is a good idea, does not necessarily mean we should host it), so >some reasoning in that regard is needed. > >I'm also *very* worried by copyright and especially business practice patents >that may be easily infringed in such a project. So I'd like to hear from a >patent lawyer about that or at least somebody who knows a lot about this type >of thing and how patents and copyright apply to standards. > Although I would be sceptical about this becoming a separate project, I don't see the problem as being with copyrights. If they really are international standards they are part of the law in the adhering countries, and thus in the public domain. Patented processes that are only available to a limited number of users seems inconsistent with the idea of international standards. Ec From board at wikimedia.org Tue Feb 8 18:17:52 2005 From: board at wikimedia.org (Wikimedia Foundation) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:17:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Promo-stuff shop of openstuff. In-Reply-To: <10097.82.174.201.237.1107855693.squirrel@82.174.201.237> References: <10097.82.174.201.237.1107855693.squirrel@82.174.201.237> Message-ID: <1107886671.834230.278460559.11862.23@ticket.wikimedia.org> ---- Forwarded message from "Walter Vermeir ." ---- > Hi, > > This shop is selling stuff from opensource projects; > http://openstuff.net > > There are in Belgium, good central point for Europa. > > Question; can we ask or someone of the board of the are willing to sell > Wikimdia/Wikipedia-stuff on there shop? > > When we need t-shirts, posters or so then we can just order them. At > least > for use in Europa. And users of Wikipedia whot like to have one can > order > also. Or Wikipedia must create there own internal production and > distribution channel for this stuff and earn more money. But that can > give > problems to do. > > Greetings, > [[w:nl:gebruiker:Walter]] From erik_moeller at gmx.de Wed Feb 9 02:58:50 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 03:58:50 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Progress on wikimedia.com? Message-ID: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> I seem to recall that there were negotiations underway at some point with the owner of wikimedia.com on transferring that domain name to the Foundation. To this day, there is no content under the domain, not even ads, just a German "Under construction" notice. I would like to inquire what the outcome of the past negotiations was. If they failed, is there any chance that we can get the domain by virtue of owning the trademark rights to "Wikimedia", and the domain name not being used in any other way by its owner? My interest is primarily that I would like the Foundation site to move from wikimediafoundation.org to wikimedia.org - a domain which is currently just an ugly portal site, but also a subdomain of Meta, the Wikimedia Commons, and the mailing lists. I think having the foundation site there could help to strengthen the Wikimedia brand identity, but when that was discussed in the past, the problem that we do not hold the .com was the main (only?) reason not to do it. So, to get the ball rolling, what's the situation? If I can help by getting in touch with the owner, I'll see what I can do. Are we willing to pay for the domain, or does it have to come for free? Legal proceedings cost money, too, so if the owner is happy with a small fee, that might be the least troublesome approach. On a different note, yes, Wikimedia and Wikipedia are very confusingly similar. Individually, our naming choices have been good, but taken together, they're a mess. I think it's too late to rename Wikimedia, with international organizations in place and 2 million Google hits on that name. The best way to deal with that problem, in my opinion, is to give a short explanation on the wikimedia.org page (which would then be the foundation page), with a small icon and a link to Wikipedia. All best, Erik From anthere9 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 9 05:41:35 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 06:41:35 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? References: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> Message-ID: <4209A28F.7020303@yahoo.com> Erik Moeller a ?crit: > I seem to recall that there were negotiations underway at some point > with the owner of wikimedia.com on transferring that domain name to the > Foundation. To this day, there is no content under the domain, not even > ads, just a German "Under construction" notice. I would like to inquire > what the outcome of the past negotiations was. If they failed, is there > any chance that we can get the domain by virtue of owning the trademark > rights to "Wikimedia", and the domain name not being used in any other > way by its owner? Negociations were under way with a member of the german association. I do not remember with certainty who. Possibly akl. > My interest is primarily that I would like the Foundation site to move > from wikimediafoundation.org to wikimedia.org - a domain which is > currently just an ugly portal site, but also a subdomain of Meta, the > Wikimedia Commons, and the mailing lists. ? I really do not see what you mean here. Actually, the more time goes by, the happier I am with the full name Many people get confused between wikipedia, wikimedia and mediawiki We certainly need wikimedia.com, but I am not so convinced we should move the site to wikimedia.org. I think having the foundation > site there could help to strengthen the Wikimedia brand identity, but > when that was discussed in the past, the problem that we do not hold the > .com was the main (only?) reason not to do it. > > So, to get the ball rolling, what's the situation? If I can help by > getting in touch with the owner, I'll see what I can do. Are we willing > to pay for the domain, or does it have to come for free? Legal > proceedings cost money, too, so if the owner is happy with a small fee, > that might be the least troublesome approach. A small fee would be reasonable. > On a different note, yes, Wikimedia and Wikipedia are very confusingly > similar. Individually, our naming choices have been good, but taken > together, they're a mess. I think it's too late to rename Wikimedia, > with international organizations in place and 2 million Google hits on > that name. The best way to deal with that problem, in my opinion, is to > give a short explanation on the wikimedia.org page (which would then be > the foundation page), with a small icon and a link to Wikipedia. This is the reason I would now rather support using full adress (with a redirection of course from wikimedia.org) I would be glad if you could take time to fix that up. > All best, > > Erik From erik_moeller at gmx.de Wed Feb 9 06:25:24 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 07:25:24 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? In-Reply-To: <4209A28F.7020303@yahoo.com> References: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> <4209A28F.7020303@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4209ACD4.5040809@gmx.de> Anthere- > Actually, the more time goes by, the happier I am with the full name > Many people get confused between wikipedia, wikimedia and mediawiki > We certainly need wikimedia.com, but I am not so convinced we should > move the site to wikimedia.org. Is it actually true that wikimediafoundation.org reduces the confusion, though? One could argue that it increases it. Compare: wikipedia.org wikimediafoundation.org wikipedia.org wikimedia.org In the first case, there are two differences - the "foundation" suffix and the "m" instead of the "p". In the second case, the only difference is the "m"/"p" difference. If I give someone the wikimediafoundation.org URL, and they visit it, chances are, they only notice the big difference - the "foundation" - and do not notice the smaller one. They might remember it as the "Wikipedia Foundation". A Google search for "Wikipedia Foundation" turns up 887 hits, so we can take this to be a common mistake. The reality may be somewhat counterintuitive: reducing the name to wikimedia.org makes the small difference more apparent -- leading to the intuition that it is "more confusing", when actually it highlights the difference and thereby reduces the confusion. Now, there are cases of confusion that will happen between wikipedia.org / wikimedia.org -- but if we redirect wikimedia.org to wikimediafoundation.org anyway, what positive difference does the "-foundation" make? Tell people that they are in the right or wrong place? That's what the content of the website should accomplish. This could be done very tastefully with a nice, prominent icon box both on the wikipedia.org and wikimedia.org homepages. I also think that using wikimedia.org would be more consistent with its use in our projects such as commons.wikimedia.org, meta.wikimedia.org, foundation-l at wikimedia.org, etc.. wikimediafoundation.org vs. wikimedia.org suggests that there's a difference when they're one and the same. Again, this may add to the confusion rather than reducing it, because we have two domain names in active use. I don't think the confusion can be reduced by simply using a longer name -- I believe the only way to accomplish that would be to change the main component, the "Wikimedia", but that doesn't seem practical. What are the cases where the confusion would increase if we move the site to wikimedia.org? Regards, Erik From anthere9 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 9 07:19:08 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 08:19:08 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? References: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> <4209A28F.7020303@yahoo.com> <4209ACD4.5040809@gmx.de> Message-ID: <4209B96C.5060008@yahoo.com> Erik Moeller a ?crit: > I don't think the confusion can be reduced by simply using a longer name > -- I believe the only way to accomplish that would be to change the main > component, the "Wikimedia", but that doesn't seem practical. What are > the cases where the confusion would increase if we move the site to > wikimedia.org? > > Regards, > > Erik I think the issue is NOT entirely the one of "confusion". But also an aspect of image, self-image. When we use explicitely the word "foundation", we transmit a certain message to the reader. the term "Foundation" conveys a certain set of concept, about "help", about "support", about "independant organisation", about "funding". Which the simple term "wikimedia" does not convey. This is probably why most american foundations have the word "foundation" in their name. Or most european associations have the word "association" in their name. I think this is important from a pr perspective. From christiaan at last-straw.net Wed Feb 9 12:57:31 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:57:31 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikipedia on answers.com/google Message-ID: I was looking up the word orchard via google today and noticed that they have a Wikipedia section: http://www.answers.com/orchard&r=67 http://snipurl.com/cna7 Cool, how long have they been doing this? Christiaan From jwales at wikia.com Wed Feb 9 15:04:37 2005 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 07:04:37 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikipedia on answers.com/google In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050209150437.GG26566@wikia.com> A few weeks. These are the people who invited me over to Israel and arranged for me to speak at Hebrew University in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv University. Their CEO is a huge fan of wikipedia, and is increasingly a supporter of the Wikimedia Foundation. Good people, very supportive of NPOV and of our charitable ideals. Christiaan Briggs wrote: > I was looking up the word orchard via google today and noticed that > they have a Wikipedia section: > http://www.answers.com/orchard&r=67 > > http://snipurl.com/cna7 > > Cool, how long have they been doing this? > > Christiaan > > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > -- "La n?fle est un fruit." - first words of 50,000th article on fr.wikipedia.org From anthere9 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 9 15:09:01 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 07:09:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Grant meeting Message-ID: <20050209150901.4167.qmail@web41825.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, As you all have probably seen, our budget is seriously increasing every trimester. It is my personal view that we cannot anymore entirely rely on donations by visitors, but must seriously seek other sources of income. Last year, we were offered two grants and one prize, and a third grant of 40 000 dollars was just offered. These grants make the difference between succeeding to run the site, or not. We need to pay more attention to grants. Most require quite a bit of work, but the result is really worth it. For this reason, a meeting will be held on this sunday, 4 PM UTC. If you wish to participate, please come over to #wikimedia, we'll find a quiet room to host us. While the meeting is open, I or Angela or Danny reserve the right to kindly ask a visitor to leave the room if necessary. We wish to involve people as much as possible, but only seriously interested and trusted people :-) Topics will be * feedback on current grant requests (Danny) * discussion over new possible grants * Decision to seek for a couple ones. * Teams setting up. In particular, last year, we thought of asking a NEH grant, but the deadlines were too short. We might try again this year. The work to do is not only setting up figures, but there is also a lot of work simply describing our project, gathering statistics or press clipings, helping on the layout, fixing typos, improving style etc... I invite you to read http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants and join us sunday Anthere __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From ginu.george at gmail.com Wed Feb 9 15:11:15 2005 From: ginu.george at gmail.com (Ginu George) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:11:15 +0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikipedia on answers.com/google In-Reply-To: <20050209150437.GG26566@wikia.com> References: <20050209150437.GG26566@wikia.com> Message-ID: Nice hearing that in the list. If you know the contact details of them, then give me off the list. I am from dubai and i can co-ordinate that then Regards George On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 07:04:37 -0800, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote: > A few weeks. These are the people who invited me over to Israel and > arranged for me to speak at Hebrew University in Jerusalem and Tel > Aviv University. Their CEO is a huge fan of wikipedia, and is > increasingly a supporter of the Wikimedia Foundation. Good people, very > supportive of NPOV and of our charitable ideals. > > Christiaan Briggs wrote: > > > I was looking up the word orchard via google today and noticed that > > they have a Wikipedia section: > > http://www.answers.com/orchard&r=67 > > > > http://snipurl.com/cna7 > > > > Cool, how long have they been doing this? > > > > Christiaan > > > > _______________________________________________ > > foundation-l mailing list > > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > > > > -- > "La n?fle est un fruit." - first words of 50,000th article on fr.wikipedia.org > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > -- Regards Ginu George www.ginugeorge.com From erik_moeller at gmx.de Wed Feb 9 16:01:38 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 17:01:38 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? In-Reply-To: <4209B96C.5060008@yahoo.com> References: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> <4209A28F.7020303@yahoo.com> <4209ACD4.5040809@gmx.de> <4209B96C.5060008@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <420A33E2.1040702@gmx.de> Ant- > I think the issue is NOT entirely the one of "confusion". But also an > aspect of image, self-image. > > When we use explicitely the word "foundation", we transmit a certain > message to the reader. Well, we do explicitly use that word on the website. Do we have to use it in the domain name? Let's look at some foundations Google gives us: Rockefeller Foundation - rockfound.org Ford Foundation - fordfound.org Heritage Foundation - heritage.org Apache Software Foundation - apache.org Free Software Foundation - fsf.org Electronic Frontier Foundation - eff.org Arthritis Foundation - arthritis.org Kellogg Foundation - wkkf.org Open Societiy Institute - soros.org Benton Foundation - benton.org Global SchoolNet Foundation - globalschoolnet.org MacArthur Foundation - macfound.org Hewlett Foundation - hewlett.org Packard Foundation - packard.org Andrew Mellon Foundation - mellon.org Carnegie Corporation - carnegie.org Templeton Foundation - templeton.org .... Most large, successful foundations have one thing in common: short domain names. Besides the ones listed, many have haphazardly constructed three- or four-letter acronyms, and some major ones even use the ugly shorthand "found" as a disambiguation instead of the longer "foundation". Whenever possible, foundations seem to use the word.org form. Make no mistake, there's plenty of foundations with "foundation" in the URL, but for the cases I could come up with, this is because a shorter name was not available (e.g. gates.org is taken by some guy's mail server). I haven't found a single one which redirects a short name to a longer one. Having a short domain name is very important. Many people don't use bookmarks, and they will visit a site only if they feel like typing the name. wikimediafoundation.org is 23 characters, longer than every single name on the Alexa top 100 websites list. Conveying the message that we are a foundation is best left to the website content, in my opinion, rather than the domain name. I don't see emphasis as a sufficient reason to keep a long name, otherwise we might as well call it wikimedianonprofit.org or wikimediafreeknowledge.org to emphasize other aspects of importance. Regards, Erik From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Wed Feb 9 16:02:32 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 17:02:32 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? In-Reply-To: <420A33E2.1040702@gmx.de> References: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> <4209A28F.7020303@yahoo.com> <4209ACD4.5040809@gmx.de> <4209B96C.5060008@yahoo.com> <420A33E2.1040702@gmx.de> Message-ID: <420A3418.5080902@laposte.net> We can always redirect www.wikimedia.com to www.wikimediafoundation.org This way, people can type the short way to get to the site. Nicolas [[Ryo]] From delirium at hackish.org Wed Feb 9 16:20:43 2005 From: delirium at hackish.org (Delirium) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 11:20:43 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Grant meeting In-Reply-To: <20050209150901.4167.qmail@web41825.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050209150901.4167.qmail@web41825.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <420A385B.1050303@hackish.org> Anthere wrote: >In particular, last year, we thought of asking a NEH >grant, but the deadlines were too short. We might try >again this year. The work to do is not only setting up >figures, but there is also a lot of work simply >describing our project, gathering statistics or press >clipings, helping on the layout, fixing typos, >improving style etc... > > I thought last time this came up, Jimbo indicated he was fairly strongly against the idea of Wikipedia seeking grants from governments or government agencies? -Mark From wikipedia at klempert.de Wed Feb 9 16:51:04 2005 From: wikipedia at klempert.de (Arne Klempert) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 17:51:04 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? References: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> <4209A28F.7020303@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <04cf01c50ec7$8b3fc460$7f00a8c0@akl> On Wednesday, February 09, 2005 6:41 AM Anthere wrote: > Erik Moeller a ?crit: >> I seem to recall that there were negotiations underway at some point >> with the owner of wikimedia.com on transferring that domain name to >> the Foundation. To this day, there is no content under the domain, >> not even ads, just a German "Under construction" notice. I would >> like to inquire what the outcome of the past negotiations was. If >> they failed, is there any chance that we can get the domain by >> virtue of owning the trademark rights to "Wikimedia", and the domain >> name not being used in any other way by its owner? > > Negociations were under way with a member of the german association. I > do not remember with certainty who. Possibly akl. Yes. After I got no respond to my first mail (should be in the archive of this list) I tried it by phone (didn't reach the person who is named in the whois database, but the guy I talked to seemed to qualify for making decisions). He said he would have a look at my mail and would respond - but he didn't. After a kind reminder mail I called him again, and he said again that he would answer the mail - but he didn't. After that I came to the conclusion that he won't give it away unless we're putting the screws on. So I decided to wait until Wikimedia is registered as a trademark at least in the U.S. Could anyone tell me if this is already done? http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_trademarks seems a little bit outdated :-( I'll forward my mails and the contact informations to Erik. -Arne (akl) From walter at vankalken.net Wed Feb 9 17:00:34 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:00:34 +0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Grant meeting In-Reply-To: <20050209150901.4167.qmail@web41825.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050209150901.4167.qmail@web41825.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <420A41B2.8010009@vankalken.net> I will be there, but can you please remind again when you see me on IRC on sunday ;) Waerth/Walter van Kalken From anthere9 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 9 17:21:45 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:21:45 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Grant meeting References: <20050209150901.4167.qmail@web41825.mail.yahoo.com> <420A385B.1050303@hackish.org> Message-ID: <420A46A9.3080801@yahoo.com> I am not aware he opposed at all the attempt made for this grant last summer : http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/NEH_grant_application Sooooo, he might have changed his mind :-) If not, we can discuss this. Delirium a ?crit: > Anthere wrote: > >> In particular, last year, we thought of asking a NEH >> grant, but the deadlines were too short. We might try >> again this year. The work to do is not only setting up >> figures, but there is also a lot of work simply >> describing our project, gathering statistics or press >> clipings, helping on the layout, fixing typos, >> improving style etc... >> > I thought last time this came up, Jimbo indicated he was fairly strongly > against the idea of Wikipedia seeking grants from governments or > government agencies? > > -Mark From anthere9 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 9 17:32:13 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:32:13 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? References: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> <4209A28F.7020303@yahoo.com> <04cf01c50ec7$8b3fc460$7f00a8c0@akl> Message-ID: <420A491D.9040102@yahoo.com> Arne Klempert a ?crit: > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_trademarks > seems a little bit outdated :-( Indeeeeeed. Well, I updated what I knew for certain. I would prefer Erik, that you do not do anything anymore until we have more information on wikimedia trademarks. Obviously, the owner of wikimedia.com is not very motivated, so best to approach him with something more solid. Ant From anthere9 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 9 17:56:56 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:56:56 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? References: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> <4209A28F.7020303@yahoo.com> <04cf01c50ec7$8b3fc460$7f00a8c0@akl> Message-ID: <420A4EE8.2070807@yahoo.com> Afaik, the trademark page is not very very outdated, since the only trademarks we recently got are wikipedia in Japan and Europe. But Jimbo will update it with more information soon. Given what Akl is reporting, the owner of www.wikimedia.com probably was not very willing to negociate. We do not have more in hands to motivate him yet : we need to ensure wikimedia is registered in the USA, which would be very useful for the negociation. So Erik, please hold on. Thanks Anthere Arne Klempert a ?crit: > On Wednesday, February 09, 2005 6:41 AM > Anthere wrote: > > >>Erik Moeller a ?crit: >> >>>I seem to recall that there were negotiations underway at some point >>>with the owner of wikimedia.com on transferring that domain name to >>>the Foundation. To this day, there is no content under the domain, >>>not even ads, just a German "Under construction" notice. I would >>>like to inquire what the outcome of the past negotiations was. If >>>they failed, is there any chance that we can get the domain by >>>virtue of owning the trademark rights to "Wikimedia", and the domain >>>name not being used in any other way by its owner? >> >>Negociations were under way with a member of the german association. I >>do not remember with certainty who. Possibly akl. > > > Yes. After I got no respond to my first mail (should be in the archive > of this list) I tried it by phone (didn't reach the person who is named > in the whois database, but the guy I talked to seemed to qualify for > making decisions). He said he would have a look at my mail and would > respond - but he didn't. After a kind reminder mail I called him again, > and he said again that he would answer the mail - but he didn't. > > After that I came to the conclusion that he won't give it away unless > we're putting the screws on. So I decided to wait until Wikimedia is > registered as a trademark at least in the U.S. Could anyone tell me if > this is already done? > > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_trademarks > seems a little bit outdated :-( > > I'll forward my mails and the contact informations to Erik. > > -Arne (akl) From wikipedia at klempert.de Wed Feb 9 18:52:09 2005 From: wikipedia at klempert.de (Arne Klempert) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:52:09 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? References: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> <4209A28F.7020303@yahoo.com><04cf01c50ec7$8b3fc460$7f00a8c0@akl> <420A4EE8.2070807@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <05f501c50ed8$75bbbd90$7f00a8c0@akl> On Wednesday, February 09, 2005 6:56 PM Anthere wrote: > Afaik, the trademark page is not very very outdated, since > the only trademarks we recently got are wikipedia in Japan > and Europe. That sounds not very plausible because to my knowledge the US trademark is a pre-condition to apply for registration in the EU according to the Madrid Agreement. "Trademark registrations have been filed for (pending): Wikipedia, MediaWiki, Wikinews, Others?" <--- "Others?" doesn't make me feel confident that the rest of the list is correct. It would be great to get some more informations about the trademarks. At least registration numbers would be very helpfully to impress domain squatters. -Arne (akl) From anthere9 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 9 19:04:24 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 20:04:24 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? References: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> <4209A28F.7020303@yahoo.com><04cf01c50ec7$8b3fc460$7f00a8c0@akl> <420A4EE8.2070807@yahoo.com> <05f501c50ed8$75bbbd90$7f00a8c0@akl> Message-ID: <420A5EB8.2080606@yahoo.com> Arne Klempert a ?crit: > On Wednesday, February 09, 2005 6:56 PM > Anthere wrote: > > >>Afaik, the trademark page is not very very outdated, since >>the only trademarks we recently got are wikipedia in Japan >>and Europe. > > > That sounds not very plausible because to my knowledge the US trademark > is a pre-condition to apply for registration in the EU according to the > Madrid Agreement. Well, still... according to Jimbo... this is a fact. I am interested by this agreement ... you mean something can't get protected unless it is first protected in the USA ??? What sort of an agreement is that ????? > "Trademark registrations have been filed for (pending): Wikipedia, > MediaWiki, Wikinews, Others?" <--- "Others?" doesn't make me feel > confident that the rest of the list is correct. It would be great to get > some more informations about the trademarks. At least registration > numbers would be very helpfully to impress domain squatters. > > -Arne (akl) Nod. Jimbo promised to do it within the next few days. If not, we need to torture him to do so. From wikipedia at klempert.de Wed Feb 9 19:30:01 2005 From: wikipedia at klempert.de (Arne Klempert) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 20:30:01 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? References: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> <4209A28F.7020303@yahoo.com><04cf01c50ec7$8b3fc460$7f00a8c0@akl> <420A4EE8.2070807@yahoo.com><05f501c50ed8$75bbbd90$7f00a8c0@akl> <420A5EB8.2080606@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <062d01c50edd$bfe3b620$7f00a8c0@akl> On Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:04 PM Anthere wrote: > I am interested by this agreement ... you mean something can't > get protected unless it is first protected in the USA ??? No. But afaik you can protect a trademark of a country which is member of the Madrid Union in all other countries by filing *one* application. > What sort of an agreement is that ????? http://www.wipo.int/madrid/en/ > Nod. Jimbo promised to do it within the next few days. That rings a bell ;-) -Arne (akl) From maveric149 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 9 22:58:20 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:58:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Grant meeting In-Reply-To: <20050209150901.4167.qmail@web41825.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050209225820.80727.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> --- Anthere wrote: > As you all have probably seen, our budget is seriously > increasing every trimester. This is very true (although our budgets are quarterly). I heard yesterday that many people thought the $130,000 budget was for the rest of the year. In fact, that is just for the first quarter of this year (ends March 31st). We are throwing a lot more money at servers this time than we normally would. This is largely due to the existence of the $40,000 grant and our want to *finally* get ahead of traffic increases and have a server farm that is top rate and very scalable. > It is my personal view that we cannot anymore entirely > rely on donations by visitors, but must seriously seek > other sources of income. Last year our total income was $150,498.75 (in 2003 we took in less than $20,000). Based on projected increases of traffic, how much we have spent per 1000 page requests just to keep up, and adjusting for Moore's Law, I project we will need to spend about $165,000 to $195,000 on servers during the last quarter of this year just to keep up (not for the whole year, just for the last three months). That is *if* we continue to grow as fast as we have been (80% compounded each quarter), *if* we don't find some way to be vastly more efficient, and *if* we continue to rely pretty much only on servers we buy. Lots of ifs, but it is still an important thing to consider as we move forward. The plan for Google hosting will greatly reduce the amount of money we need to spend as will other hosting offers. I imagine that grants will at least be needed to build extra capacity (playing the role of the current $40,000 grant this time). -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From maveric149 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 9 23:09:52 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 15:09:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Progress on wikimedia.com? In-Reply-To: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> Message-ID: <20050209230952.60086.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Erik Moeller wrote: > On a different note, yes, Wikimedia and Wikipedia are very confusingly > similar. Individually, our naming choices have been good, but taken > together, they're a mess. I think it's too late to rename Wikimedia, > with international organizations in place and 2 million Google hits on > that name. The best way to deal with that problem, in my opinion, is to > give a short explanation on the wikimedia.org page (which would then be > the foundation page), with a small icon and a link to Wikipedia. IMO, the shorter name can and should be used to present selected content from the various projects along with the ability to search all projects at once or individually. Something like the homepage for InfoPlease but better. http://www.infoplease.com/ At the very least, we should have the current owner forward Wikimedia.com to Wikimedia.org. We can then negotiate ownership transfer costs. -- mav __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From marco.krohn at web.de Wed Feb 9 23:25:00 2005 From: marco.krohn at web.de (Marco Krohn) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:25:00 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Grant meeting In-Reply-To: <20050209225820.80727.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050209225820.80727.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200502100025.00581.marco.krohn@web.de> On Wednesday 09 February 2005 23:58, Daniel Mayer wrote: Hi, [...] > The plan for Google hosting will greatly reduce the amount of > money we need to spend as will other hosting offers. I'm reading about google hosting for the second time now, but couldn't find anything on meta, wikidev or this mailing list. It sounds interesting, what is meant with it exactly? best regards, Marco From maveric149 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 9 23:31:07 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 15:31:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? In-Reply-To: <420A33E2.1040702@gmx.de> Message-ID: <20050209233107.92417.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> --- Erik Moeller wrote: > Having a short domain name is very important. Many people don't use > bookmarks, and they will visit a site only if they feel like typing the > name. wikimediafoundation.org is 23 characters, longer than every single > name on the Alexa top 100 websites list. Conveying the message that we > are a foundation is best left to the website content, in my opinion, > rather than the domain name. I don't see emphasis as a sufficient reason > to keep a long name, otherwise we might as well call it > wikimedianonprofit.org or wikimediafreeknowledge.org to emphasize other > aspects of importance. Every single page on every project that the foundation runs should eventually have a link to one of the fundrasing pages. There also should be a direct link to the foundation home page from each of those ~2 million pages (under the "A Wikimedia Project" button). Thus the number of characters in the actual URL of the foundation wiki is not too important. Having a portal to act as a central start-off point to all the different projects is far more important. Having that at Wikimedia.org makes perfect sense to me. Granted the current one lacks content and inter-project search capability, but that can and should be changed. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From beesley at gmail.com Wed Feb 9 23:31:26 2005 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:31:26 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Grant meeting In-Reply-To: <200502100025.00581.marco.krohn@web.de> References: <20050209225820.80727.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <200502100025.00581.marco.krohn@web.de> Message-ID: <8b722b80050209153110fc0d0c@mail.gmail.com> > I'm reading about google hosting for the second time now, but couldn't find > anything on meta, wikidev or this mailing list. It sounds interesting, what > is meant with it exactly? Basically, Google have made a proposal to host some of our content.There's an introduction at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Google_hosting, but I'm not sure I can say much more than that at this stage. Angela. From maveric149 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 9 23:35:49 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 15:35:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Google hosting (was Re: [Foundation-l] Grant meeting) In-Reply-To: <200502100025.00581.marco.krohn@web.de> Message-ID: <20050209233550.83871.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> --- Marco Krohn wrote: > I'm reading about google hosting for the second time now, but couldn't find > anything on meta, wikidev or this mailing list. It sounds interesting, what > is meant with it exactly? I don't remember the specifics (ask Jimbo for those), but Google has at least tentatively agreed to give us access to a certain number of dual zeon servers at one or more of their data centers and with unlimited bandwidth. I've been told that there are no strings attached (meaning they don't expect us to do anything for then, such as having GoogleAds). -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From erik_moeller at gmx.de Thu Feb 10 02:03:12 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:03:12 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? In-Reply-To: <4209A28F.7020303@yahoo.com> References: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> <4209A28F.7020303@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <420AC0E0.4090409@gmx.de> Anthere- > > This is the reason I would now rather support using full adress (with > a redirection of course from wikimedia.org) > > I would be glad if you could take time to fix that up. Angela said she would prefer it if wikimedia.org stays a separate site, unless a big disambiguation notice is added to wikimediafoundation.org. I'm happy to add a disambig notice, but I think it should only cover terms where there's some confusion (Wikipedia, MediaWiki) and be reasonably discreet. I'll stay out of this whole mess until the wikimedia.com situation is resolved. At that point, it's probably a good idea to ask the community for their input. Regards, Erik From maveric149 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 10 05:09:48 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:09:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Translations needed of donation pages before fund drive Message-ID: <20050210050948.64971.qmail@web51601.mail.yahoo.com> I'm happy to report that the donation pages and forms for de, en, fr, it, ja, and most recently nl are all translated! See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising and http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donazioni for examples. But in order to maximize donations for our next fund drive (to be held from Friday 18 February until Friday 4 March) we need more translations. Below is a table of those that still need some work: lang page Form-xx Help-xx Onetime-xx Option-xx ar yes no no no no cs yes no no no no es yes no no no no fi yes no no no no he yes no no no no ko yes no no no no pl yes no no no no pt yes yes no no no sv yes no no no no zh yes no no no no KEY (full instructions are on the linked pages) *page (actual donation page | Extremely important) http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF/Fundraising/En: *Form-xx (used to translate donation forms | Very important) http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:DonationForm-xx *Help-xx (help for donors) http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:DonateHelp-xx *Onetime-xx (a message about one time donations) http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:DonateOnetime-xx *Option-xx (used for navigation between forms) http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:DonateOption-xx I'd also like to see translations for all languages for which there are 10,000+ Wikipedia articles. Here is a list of those that so far do not have anything translated: bg, ca, da, eo, no, ro, ru, and uk Of course, all other translations are also welcome and will be posted to the foundation wiki. ----------- One last thing. I've noticed that there is no donation link in the side bar for for many non-Wikipedia wikis and for some Wikipedias. If you are an admin in any of these wikis *and* a version of the donation page is already on the Foundation wiki in your language, then please do this: Edit [[MediaWiki:Sitesupport-url]] and replace '{{SITENAME}}:Site_support' with 'Wikimedia:donate' with 'donate' being the name of the donation page in your language on the foundation wiki (Spenden, Fundraising, Faites un don, ... etc). Edit [[MediaWiki:Sitesupport]] and replace the '-' with the word 'Donations' (or its closest equivalent) translated into your language. That's it. :) -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav) PS - I you have any questions about any of this, then please either respond to this email or ask me questions on my meta user talk page at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Daniel_Mayer __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From wikipedia at earthlink.net Thu Feb 10 05:34:18 2005 From: wikipedia at earthlink.net (Michael Snow) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 21:34:18 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? In-Reply-To: <20050209191235.F14D11AC19CB@mail.wikimedia.org> References: <20050209191235.F14D11AC19CB@mail.wikimedia.org> Message-ID: <420AF25A.7020502@earthlink.net> Arne Klempert wrote: >That sounds not very plausible because to my knowledge the US trademark >is a pre-condition to apply for registration in the EU according to the >Madrid Agreement. > > Well, we could register the trademarks separately in some European country, but that doesn't make that much sense if we can get an EU-wide registration based on a prior US registration. >"Trademark registrations have been filed for (pending): Wikipedia, >MediaWiki, Wikinews, Others?" <--- "Others?" doesn't make me feel >confident that the rest of the list is correct. It would be great to get >some more informations about the trademarks. At least registration >numbers would be very helpfully to impress domain squatters. > > So far, we've filed just the three applications for US trademark registration that I know of - Wikipedia, MediaWiki, and Wikinews, no others. They don't have registration numbers because they're not registered yet, they're only in the application stage. The applications do have serial numbers, which you can get through the US Patent & Trademark Office's search function. You can also check the status, which in this case shows that none of the applications has yet been assigned to an examining attorney. (Applications seem to get entered in the system with decent regularity; I don't know how good they are about status updates.) Since we're trying to identify all of these with the Wikimedia Foundation, so that Wikimedia is sort of the umbrella brand for all our projects, it would probably make sense to get Wikimedia registered as well. The name is getting some public exposure (the New York Times did a nice job differentiating in their piece about Wikinews), and it could be helpful with the wikimedia.com situation. The domain name problem makes the issue of where to put the Foundation wiki academic for now, but ultimately I agree with Erik that we should definitely go with the shorter name. Either way, though, we should get ourselves the wikimedia.com domain. Eventually we should register the other projects as trademarks too, but I'm not sure that should be an immediate financial priority. I think it's more important to get international registration going for the first four marks (the existing three and Wikimedia), once the US registration is in effect. --Michael Snow From anthere9 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 10 06:09:33 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:09:33 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Grant meeting References: <20050209225820.80727.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <200502100025.00581.marco.krohn@web.de> Message-ID: <420AFA9D.3020602@yahoo.com> Marco Krohn a ?crit: > On Wednesday 09 February 2005 23:58, Daniel Mayer wrote: > > Hi, > > [...] > >>The plan for Google hosting will greatly reduce the amount of >>money we need to spend as will other hosting offers. > > > I'm reading about google hosting for the second time now, but couldn't find > anything on meta, wikidev or this mailing list. It sounds interesting, what > is meant with it exactly? > > best regards, > Marco It is currently proceeding, but details are not entirely worked out. We had a first proposal for which we gave feedback last week. Today, in Standford, Jimbo met with Sergei Brin and Larry Page, who were extremely enthousiastic about the whole project. The board has a meeting planned early march to try to finalize this a little bit more. Ant From anthere9 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 10 06:13:39 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:13:39 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? References: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> <4209A28F.7020303@yahoo.com> <420AC0E0.4090409@gmx.de> Message-ID: <420AFB93.8060500@yahoo.com> It is not a "mess" :-) Either way, while I have a preference, I will gladly accept that another solution is chosen, and the community is welcome to say what it prefers here. In all cases, as long as we do not have www.wikimedia.com, we should not change anything. So, let's talk about it when www.wikimedia.com is recovered. ant Erik Moeller a ?crit: > Anthere- > >> >> This is the reason I would now rather support using full adress (with >> a redirection of course from wikimedia.org) >> >> I would be glad if you could take time to fix that up. > > > Angela said she would prefer it if wikimedia.org stays a separate site, > unless a big disambiguation notice is added to wikimediafoundation.org. > I'm happy to add a disambig notice, but I think it should only cover > terms where there's some confusion (Wikipedia, MediaWiki) and be > reasonably discreet. > > I'll stay out of this whole mess until the wikimedia.com situation is > resolved. At that point, it's probably a good idea to ask the community > for their input. > > Regards, > > Erik From beesley at gmail.com Thu Feb 10 15:38:32 2005 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:38:32 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Board meeting, February 2005 Message-ID: <8b722b8005021007383dd6b979@mail.gmail.com> The approved notes of the Board meeting on 7 February are now at http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Meetings/February_7%2C_2005 The meeting focused primarily on finance, and the budget is now at http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Budget/2005 If you would like to comment on this meeting or discuss any of the points raised there, please do so at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/talk:Wikimedia_Board_meetings Angela. From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Thu Feb 10 16:23:48 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 03:23:48 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Quenya language request, and Chinese Wikipedia again In-Reply-To: <420B894D.10406@tonal.clara.co.uk> References: <5075.194.72.110.12.1108033756.squirrel@happy.minority-report.co.uk> <420B5350.2010709@yahoo.com> <20050210123649.GH21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <3596.194.72.110.12.1108039849.squirrel@happy.minority-report.co.uk> <20050210125449.GI21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <420B8248.8000306@tonal.clara.co.uk> <20050210155316.GR21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <420B894D.10406@tonal.clara.co.uk> Message-ID: <20050210162348.GS21722@thingy.apana.org.au> Neil Harris (usenet at tonal.clara.co.uk) [050211 03:18]: > Just as with politics, there are many actual positions hidden behind > people's ostensible positions. At the moment, we have a position where > "yes, but only when we are happy", or even "yes, real soon now" actually > mean "never". The key here is _breaking the deadlock_ of _indefinite_ > opposition to other Chinese language Wikipedias, by making supporters on > both sides commit in advance to a value of N, and automatically > triggering the change in policy when N is reached. Making people make > _objective_ choices always clarifies their positions. The thing is you're still presupposing that an existing wikipedia has a right to block the existence of a new Wikipedia. I ask the Board: is this the case? - d. From jwales at wikia.com Thu Feb 10 19:14:33 2005 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:14:33 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Quenya language request, and Chinese Wikipedia again In-Reply-To: <20050210162348.GS21722@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <5075.194.72.110.12.1108033756.squirrel@happy.minority-report.co.uk> <420B5350.2010709@yahoo.com> <20050210123649.GH21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <3596.194.72.110.12.1108039849.squirrel@happy.minority-report.co.uk> <20050210125449.GI21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <420B8248.8000306@tonal.clara.co.uk> <20050210155316.GR21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <420B894D.10406@tonal.clara.co.uk> <20050210162348.GS21722@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <20050210191433.GL11848@wikia.com> David Gerard wrote: > The thing is you're still presupposing that an existing wikipedia has a > right to block the existence of a new Wikipedia. > > I ask the Board: is this the case? Not speaking here for the board, but only offering my own tentative opinion, the answer to this is "no" in the general case, but that such factors can be a part of the overall decision. I am told repeatedly by many people that while Mandarian and Cantonese are mutually unintelligible in the spoken form, in written form they are the same. This is pretty compelling for me. If there is a significant population of people who can not read/write standard written Chinese, but *can* read/write Cantonese in some writing system that is different, then I want to learn about that, because that would be a very compelling factor in the other direction. --Jimbo From st at gmuf.com Fri Feb 11 09:45:45 2005 From: st at gmuf.com (Stanislav Traykov) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:45:45 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Fundraising: German Bank Account Message-ID: <420C7EC9.7060701@gmuf.com> Hi, I'll probably include the bank account of the German chapter in the Bulgarian translation of the fundraising pages. (That's because PayPal isn't available to most Bulgarian clients and a semi-cheap intra-european wire transfer seems like a reasonable option for some people.) My questions: a) Shall we use a different transfer purpose (Verwendungszweck) than "Spende"? b) Does it make any sense to ask donors to optionally add their address to the Verwendungszweck, if they wish to receive a receipt? (Or is tax deducibility for the e.V. not applicable outside Germany?). c) Generally, are there any problems with this? Thanks, Stanislav From wikimb at gmail.com Fri Feb 11 14:20:04 2005 From: wikimb at gmail.com (Michael Becker) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:20:04 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia Message-ID: <420CBF14.2000806@gmail.com> Well, it looks like someone spilled the beans about the google deal http://google-blog.dirson.com/post.new/0233/ Could we update this page: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Google_hosting since it is being linked to by /.? Since it's already public, I can't see any harm in keeping the community informed of the facts. From yann at forget-me.net Fri Feb 11 14:53:22 2005 From: yann at forget-me.net (Yann Forget) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:53:22 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <420CBF14.2000806@gmail.com> References: <420CBF14.2000806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200502111553.22298.yann@forget-me.net> Le Friday 11 February 2005 15:20, Michael Becker a ?crit : > Well, it looks like someone spilled the beans about the google deal > http://google-blog.dirson.com/post.new/0233/ > Could we update this page: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Google_hosting > since it is being linked to by /.? Done, but you could have done it yourself. It's a wiki, you know... ;o) > Since it's already public, I can't see any harm in keeping the community > informed of the facts. Yann -- http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux From delirium at hackish.org Fri Feb 11 15:00:28 2005 From: delirium at hackish.org (Delirium) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:00:28 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <420CBF14.2000806@gmail.com> References: <420CBF14.2000806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <420CC88C.8080506@hackish.org> Michael Becker wrote: > Well, it looks like someone spilled the beans about the google deal > http://google-blog.dirson.com/post.new/0233/ > Could we update this page: > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Google_hosting since it is being linked > to by /.? > Since it's already public, I can't see any harm in keeping the > community informed of the facts. What'd be *really* great is if they also donated a working search feature. =D (Something like a more controllable version of "site:xx.wikipedia.org" that distinguished namespaces would be sufficient.) -Mark From leon.weber at t-online.de Fri Feb 11 17:43:31 2005 From: leon.weber at t-online.de (Leon Weber) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:43:31 +0100 Subject: AW: [Foundation-l] Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <420CC88C.8080506@hackish.org> Message-ID: <000201c51061$34333350$6800a8c0@weberf02> >What'd be *really* great is if they also donated a working search >feature. =D They will put a search feature on their website, i am sure. I think that Google donates to us because MSN has the encarta-searc and so Google needs something, too. Leon From walter at vankalken.net Fri Feb 11 17:48:37 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 00:48:37 +0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Pissed off In-Reply-To: <8b722b8005020719092709f299@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b8005020719092709f299@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <420CEFF5.1080002@vankalken.net> I am getting pissed off with the automatic blockbot the Japanese wikipedia uses. Japanese wikipedia has pre-emptively blocked whole ranges of IP - addresses. Including the ones Thailands biggest provider uses (a couple of 100.000 potential wikipedians). Every time I need to make a change on Japanese wikipedia I need to ask them to unblock that specific IP. Note these are pre-emptive blocks. So no vandalism was done from these addresses. I find this totally anti-wikipedia and an extremely big nuisance. Every time I am busy doing interwiki it shows up. And what pisses me off even more is that it doesn't show up when editing .... but at the moment I save the page. Bloody pissed Waerth/Walter van Kalken From maveric149 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 11 19:26:41 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:26:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <420CC88C.8080506@hackish.org> Message-ID: <20050211192641.29383.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> --- Delirium wrote: > What'd be *really* great is if they also donated a working search > feature. =D Only if it is free software. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From anthere9 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 11 17:05:30 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:05:30 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia References: <420CBF14.2000806@gmail.com> <200502111553.22298.yann@forget-me.net> Message-ID: <420CE5DA.2040108@yahoo.com> Yann Forget a ?crit: > Le Friday 11 February 2005 15:20, Michael Becker a ?crit : > >>Well, it looks like someone spilled the beans about the google deal >>http://google-blog.dirson.com/post.new/0233/ >>Could we update this page: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Google_hosting >>since it is being linked to by /.? > > > Done, but you could have done it yourself. > It's a wiki, you know... ;o) Jimbo removed the information added by Yann, and I will ask you not to add things which are rumors from the Internet, but will appear official as soon as WE report them. Whether these rumors are correct or not correct is irrelevant. For now, the only people aware of the details are the members of the board (in particular Jimbo, Angela and myself), and Google decision makers. And these details are still confidential. From delirium at hackish.org Fri Feb 11 20:45:27 2005 From: delirium at hackish.org (Delirium) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:45:27 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <420CE5DA.2040108@yahoo.com> References: <420CBF14.2000806@gmail.com> <200502111553.22298.yann@forget-me.net> <420CE5DA.2040108@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <420D1967.1040700@hackish.org> Anthere wrote: > Jimbo removed the information added by Yann, and I will ask you not to > add things which are rumors from the Internet, but will appear > official as soon as WE report them. How are they rumors? The information removed was reported on the official Wikipedia Foundation mailing list, which is public. As the blog in question points out, the fact that there was a meeting between Jimbo and Google representatives was reported by you [1], and the fact that Google has tentatively agreed to give access to servers and bandwidth was reported by mav [2]. -Mark [1] http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2005-February/002185.html [2] http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2005-February/002181.html From yann at forget-me.net Fri Feb 11 20:45:24 2005 From: yann at forget-me.net (Yann Forget) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:45:24 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <420CE5DA.2040108@yahoo.com> References: <420CBF14.2000806@gmail.com> <200502111553.22298.yann@forget-me.net> <420CE5DA.2040108@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200502112145.24714.yann@forget-me.net> Le Friday 11 February 2005 18:05, Anthere a ?crit : > Yann Forget a ?crit: > > Le Friday 11 February 2005 15:20, Michael Becker a ?crit : > >>Well, it looks like someone spilled the beans about the google deal > >>http://google-blog.dirson.com/post.new/0233/ > >>Could we update this page: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Google_hosting > >>since it is being linked to by /.? > > > > Done, but you could have done it yourself. > > It's a wiki, you know... ;o) > > Jimbo removed the information added by Yann, and I will ask you not to > add things which are rumors from the Internet, but will appear official > as soon as WE report them. Anthere, the information i added come from the foundation-l mailing list, not "rumors from the Internet". > Whether these rumors are correct or not correct is irrelevant. For now, > the only people aware of the details are the members of the board (in > particular Jimbo, Angela and myself), and Google decision makers. And > these details are still confidential. But agreed that's better to keep quiet about this issue for now. Yann -- http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux From wurdbendur at gmail.com Fri Feb 11 22:31:06 2005 From: wurdbendur at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:31:06 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Shavian Wikis Message-ID: I?m fairly new on Wikimedia, and even more so to this mailing list--but I?m sure you?ve heard plenty of this before, so I?ll get right to it. I was directed to this list to enquire about starting new Wikis in the Shavian alphabet, especially a Wikipedia and maybe Wikinews. I'm not sure this is entirely appropriate for Wikimedia since it will just be English spelled phonemically (or phonetically, if you prefer). But such considerations don't seem to preclude other Wikis, such as Simple English or Tok Pisin (not quite English, I know), so I thought I'd give it a try. I want to verify before discussing this in mind-numbing detail (putting everyone to sleep) that I am indeed in the right place and that there can perhaps be some consideration for Shavian on Wikimedia. I can assure you that the support is there, and Shavian users can be expected to use and edit Wikis in Shavian when possible. Regards, Joe From brion at pobox.com Fri Feb 11 22:50:02 2005 From: brion at pobox.com (Brion Vibber) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:50:02 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Shavian Wikis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <420D369A.3070100@pobox.com> Joe wrote: > I?m fairly new on Wikimedia, and even more so to this mailing list--but I?m > sure you?ve heard plenty of this before, so I?ll get right to it. > > I was directed to this list to enquire about starting new Wikis in the > Shavian alphabet, especially a Wikipedia and maybe Wikinews. For those not familiar with Shavian: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shavian_alphabet It's a phonetic (well, phonemic ;) alphabet for the English language, developed in response to a contest specified for in George Bernard Shaw's will. While a very neat thing, it's needless to say not in common use for writing English. > I'm not sure > this is entirely appropriate for Wikimedia since it will just be English > spelled phonemically (or phonetically, if you prefer). Since it's not even a language unto itself, and only a small handful of hobbyists use it at all, it's very unlikely that any Wikimedia projects will be established using Shavian writing. You might ask Wikicities -- http://www.wikicities.com/ -- which is where the Toki Pona wiki got moved. (Toki Pona is a hobbyist conlang.) > But such > considerations don't seem to preclude other Wikis, such as Simple English or > Tok Pisin (not quite English, I know), so I thought I'd give it a try. Tok Pisin is a creole language which is spoken natively by actual people. The 'Simple English' Wikipedia was created long, long ago and to this day it's unclear what its intended mission is. -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 253 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20050211/e769cd57/attachment-0001.pgp From anthere9 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 11 23:18:00 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 00:18:00 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia References: <420CBF14.2000806@gmail.com> <200502111553.22298.yann@forget-me.net> <420CE5DA.2040108@yahoo.com> <200502112145.24714.yann@forget-me.net> Message-ID: <420D3D28.8000808@yahoo.com> Yann Forget a ?crit: > Le Friday 11 February 2005 18:05, Anthere a ?crit : > >>Yann Forget a ?crit: >> >>>Le Friday 11 February 2005 15:20, Michael Becker a ?crit : >>> >>>>Well, it looks like someone spilled the beans about the google deal >>>>http://google-blog.dirson.com/post.new/0233/ >>>>Could we update this page: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Google_hosting >>>>since it is being linked to by /.? >>> >>>Done, but you could have done it yourself. >>>It's a wiki, you know... ;o) >> >>Jimbo removed the information added by Yann, and I will ask you not to >>add things which are rumors from the Internet, but will appear official >>as soon as WE report them. > > > Anthere, the information i added come from the foundation-l mailing list, not > "rumors from the Internet". The Foundation list is not on the Internet ? :-) From anthere9 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 11 23:22:06 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 00:22:06 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia References: <420CBF14.2000806@gmail.com> <200502111553.22298.yann@forget-me.net> <420CE5DA.2040108@yahoo.com> <420D1967.1040700@hackish.org> Message-ID: <420D3E1E.2050301@yahoo.com> Delirium a ?crit: > Anthere wrote: > >> Jimbo removed the information added by Yann, and I will ask you not to >> add things which are rumors from the Internet, but will appear >> official as soon as WE report them. > > > How are they rumors? The information removed was reported on the > official Wikipedia Foundation mailing list, which is public. Does not make it less a rumor necessarily. >.... and the fact > that Google has tentatively agreed to give access to servers and > bandwidth was reported by mav [2]. I would not like to sound impolite in any way, but Mav did not see the google proposal. > -Mark From rose.parks at att.net Sat Feb 12 02:46:40 2005 From: rose.parks at att.net (rose.parks at att.net) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:46:40 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] NYTimes.com: Google may host encyclopedia project Message-ID: <20050212024641.EBFAF1AC03D6@mail.wikimedia.org> This page was sent to you by: rose.parks at att.net. Hi, Is it possible that no one saw this yesterday in the Times? As Ever, Ruth Ifcher TECHNOLOGY | February 11, 2005 Google may host encyclopedia project Matt Hines, Staff Writer, CNET News.com The group behind the Wikipedia online effort says the search giant offered to host some of its content on company servers. http://www.nytimes.com/cnet/CNET_2100-1038_3-5572744.html?ex=1108789200&en=2955debe6a2ea165&ei=5070 ----------------- Advertisement --------------------------
/--------- E-mail Sponsored by Fox Searchlight Pictures ------------\

ONLY ONE COMEDY HAS BEEN NOMINATED FOR BEST PICTURE

SIDEWAYS has been nominated for 5 OSCARS including Best Picture, Best Director, Best Screenplay, Best Supporting Actor and Best Supporting Actress. Critics across America agree... SIDEWAYS is the BEST PICTURE of the year. SIDEWAYS stars Paul Giamatti, Thomas Haden Church, Sandra Oh and Virginia Madsen. Now playing in theaters everywhere. Watch the trailer at:

http://www.foxsearchlight.com/sideways/index_nyt.html
----------------- Advertisement -------------------------- 0 ---------------------------------------------------------- ABOUT THIS E-MAIL This e-mail was sent to you by a friend through NYTimes.com's E-mail This Article service. For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help at nytimes.com. NYTimes.com 500 Seventh Avenue New York, NY 10018 Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company From rose.parks at att.net Sat Feb 12 02:48:35 2005 From: rose.parks at att.net (rose.parks at att.net) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:48:35 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] NYTimes.com: Google may host encyclopedia project Message-ID: <20050212024836.1621D1AC17F7@mail.wikimedia.org> This page was sent to you by: rose.parks at att.net. Hi, And, then, today, the Times published this: As Ever, Ruth Ifcher TECHNOLOGY | February 11, 2005 Google may host encyclopedia project Matt Hines, Staff Writer, CNET News.com The group behind the Wikipedia online effort says the search giant offered to host some of its content on company servers. http://www.nytimes.com/cnet/CNET_2100-1038_3-5572744.html?ex=1108789200&en=2955debe6a2ea165&ei=5070 ----------------- Advertisement --------------------------
/--------- E-mail Sponsored by Fox Searchlight Pictures ------------\

ONLY ONE COMEDY HAS BEEN NOMINATED FOR BEST PICTURE

SIDEWAYS has been nominated for 5 OSCARS including Best Picture, Best Director, Best Screenplay, Best Supporting Actor and Best Supporting Actress. Critics across America agree... SIDEWAYS is the BEST PICTURE of the year. SIDEWAYS stars Paul Giamatti, Thomas Haden Church, Sandra Oh and Virginia Madsen. Now playing in theaters everywhere. Watch the trailer at:

http://www.foxsearchlight.com/sideways/index_nyt.html
----------------- Advertisement -------------------------- 0 ---------------------------------------------------------- ABOUT THIS E-MAIL This e-mail was sent to you by a friend through NYTimes.com's E-mail This Article service. For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help at nytimes.com. NYTimes.com 500 Seventh Avenue New York, NY 10018 Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company From rose.parks at att.net Sat Feb 12 02:52:55 2005 From: rose.parks at att.net (rose.parks at att.net) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:52:55 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] NYTimes.com: The Unassociated Press Message-ID: <20050212025256.707311AC1852@mail.wikimedia.org> This page was sent to you by: rose.parks at att.net. Apologies... This is the first article from Thursday's Times. As Ever, Ruth Ifcher TECHNOLOGY / CIRCUITS | February 10, 2005 The Unassociated Press By AARON WEISS Wikinews, an experiment in collaborative news gathering, is gaining in popularity. But the central question about the Wikinews effort is its credibility. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/10/technology/circuits/10wiki.html?ex=1108789200&en=7114f995abf3ad92&ei=5070 ----------------- Advertisement --------------------------
/--------- E-mail Sponsored by Fox Searchlight Pictures ------------\

ONLY ONE COMEDY HAS BEEN NOMINATED FOR BEST PICTURE

SIDEWAYS has been nominated for 5 OSCARS including Best Picture, Best Director, Best Screenplay, Best Supporting Actor and Best Supporting Actress. Critics across America agree... SIDEWAYS is the BEST PICTURE of the year. SIDEWAYS stars Paul Giamatti, Thomas Haden Church, Sandra Oh and Virginia Madsen. Now playing in theaters everywhere. Watch the trailer at:

http://www.foxsearchlight.com/sideways/index_nyt.html
----------------- Advertisement -------------------------- 0 ---------------------------------------------------------- ABOUT THIS E-MAIL This e-mail was sent to you by a friend through NYTimes.com's E-mail This Article service. For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help at nytimes.com. NYTimes.com 500 Seventh Avenue New York, NY 10018 Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company From wurdbendur at gmail.com Sat Feb 12 05:29:56 2005 From: wurdbendur at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 00:29:56 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Shavian Wikis In-Reply-To: <420D369A.3070100@pobox.com> Message-ID: On 2/11/05 5:50 PM, "Brion Vibber" wrote: > For those not familiar with Shavian: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shavian_alphabet > > It's a phonetic (well, phonemic ;) alphabet for the English language, > developed in response to a contest specified for in George Bernard > Shaw's will. Thanks for clarifying. I didn't think to mention this earlier. ^_^; > While a very neat thing, it's needless to say not in common use for > writing English. I suppose that depends on how you define "common". There are a number of people currently using it in the shawalphabet Yahoo! Group and on the Ikonboard at shavian.org. I also had a pen pal who I wrote in Shavian (insignificant, yes :), but he seems to have dropped off the face of the Earth. > Since it's not even a language unto itself, and only a small handful of > hobbyists use it at all, it's very unlikely that any Wikimedia projects > will be established using Shavian writing. You might ask Wikicities -- > http://www.wikicities.com/ -- which is where the Toki Pona wiki got > moved. (Toki Pona is a hobbyist conlang.) I had the same concern about how to implement Shavian since it isn't really a language. I've wondered if there's a way to offer a single Wiki in multiple scripts, but this may be the product of an over-imaginative mind. I'll be checking out Wikicities (never been there before) if this still doesn't sound reasonable. > Tok Pisin is a creole language which is spoken natively by actual > people. The 'Simple English' Wikipedia was created long, long ago and to > this day it's unclear what its intended mission is. If the English loanwords in Tok Pisin were spelled the same as their English origins, much of it would be mutually intelligible. Besides the slight difference in grammar and various words from other languages, the biggest difference is in spelling. This isn't meant to be an exact match, though--just an example. I recognize the difference. I can't say I really understand the purpose of the "Simple English" Wikipedia either. It sounds like a good idea though, perhaps for use by children or ESL students?. There's been talk of merging it with the en: Wikipedia, which could be described more accurately as simply removing it. Perhaps if there were a Shavian Wiki, it would face the same fate. Regards, Joe From delirium at hackish.org Sat Feb 12 07:42:43 2005 From: delirium at hackish.org (Delirium) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 02:42:43 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <420CE5DA.2040108@yahoo.com> References: <420CBF14.2000806@gmail.com> <200502111553.22298.yann@forget-me.net> <420CE5DA.2040108@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <420DB373.1030105@hackish.org> Anthere wrote: > Jimbo removed the information added by Yann, and I will ask you not to > add things which are rumors from the Internet, but will appear > official as soon as WE report them. I'm not sure I will continue to participate in Wikimedia Foundation activities until this is resolved. In particular, multiple reverts with no edit summaries from Jimbo, and locking pages after removing information is no way to run a Wiki. Meta is a place where any user may place information---you guys can censor wikimediafoundation.org if you want, but please don't fuck up meta. -Mark From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 12 08:28:17 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 00:28:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <420DB373.1030105@hackish.org> Message-ID: <20050212082817.59739.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Delirium wrote: > I'm not sure I will continue to participate in Wikimedia Foundation > activities until this is resolved. In particular, multiple reverts with > no edit summaries from Jimbo, and locking pages after removing > information is no way to run a Wiki. Meta is a place where any user may > place information---you guys can censor wikimediafoundation.org if you > want, but please don't fuck up meta. *I* protected that page some time before Jimbo's first edit to it. The reason was vandalism from Slashdot trolls. This page is also being referred to by news agencies as an 'official statement' by the foundation. It is therefore *very* appropriate for rumors and even for known but sensitive info (that probably should not be public) to be removed from it. --mav __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 12 12:38:32 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:38:32 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia References: <420CBF14.2000806@gmail.com> <200502111553.22298.yann@forget-me.net> <420CE5DA.2040108@yahoo.com> <420DB373.1030105@hackish.org> Message-ID: <420DF8C8.4010805@yahoo.com> Mark, I understand extremely well what you are saying. And I fully understand your concerns with regards to the freedom any editor should benefit on meta. I fully support this view as well. Allow me to explain to you a little bit more the current situation. First, Wikimedia Foundation is discussing the possibility of a deal with Google. However, the exact terms of the "current" proposal have not been publicly disclosed. There has been no official statement with regards exact terms either by WMF, nor by Google. Second, since we, editors of Wikimedia projects as well as Jimbo himself, tend to discuss things a lot together, as we work very hard to reach consensus and keep the community informed, basic information was provided to editors and developers. Hence, there was a trend to inform editors of the existence of the discussion and of the plan to meet Google representatives. Third, while it is obvious to us, wikipedians, that any individual wiki edit does involve only the responsability and opinion of its author, unless otherwise mentionned, it is clearly not obvious at all for people outside our little circle. As is, the board report posted here by Angela is clearly an official report from the board (http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2005-February/002187.html). However, the article posted on meta (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Google_hosting) is not an official statement by the board in any way. Angela very likely posted it to clarify questions asked by editors on the irc channels. There is absolutely nothing wrong in this. I personally discovered the page only the next day, following the link from the /. article. So I read this page after most bloggers. Does it matter ? Well, we actually face something entirely new for Wikipedia. The fact that a board member can post something casually on meta to inform editors, and this post is considered a board official announcement, and relayed by many bloggers or newspapers as an official statement. The issue is basically not whether the content is accurate or not, or complete or not. The issues are rather : - Did the board wish to make a public announcement ? - If it had done so, would it have been done on meta ? - Is there a difference between family talk on irc only available on editors logs, and statement on a wiki page which can be linked by everyone in the world ? - Does an official non official public statement hurt the likelyhood of the deal or not ? - Now that most editors consider it official, what if the other board members do not fully agree with it ? And mostly : - Now that bloggers and newspapers consider it official, does the Foundation have a right to "control" what appears to be official statement by itself ? To the last question, I definitly answer yes. And I support Mav protecting the page in question. And last point - How are such events where casual discussions are reported as official by public worldwide media gonna impact the future transparency of decision making which "could be" a little bit sensible ? So... please Mark, before complaining of censorship (you may absolutely open a parallel page and comment on the talk page), I will ask you to carefully consider whether you think it proper that a page called by a dozen of major newspapers or blogs and presented as an official page, may be edited by anyone. Someone suggested that I redirect the page to wikimediafoundation.org, but if I had done so, the talk page would not have been available any more. So, I discarded that proposition. I'll also remind that Jimbo, Angela and I are also individuals, and that in most cases, what we say reflect our own opinion, rather than the collective opinion of the board. All what is above is only my opinion, not an official statement by the Foundation :-) Anthere Delirium a ?crit: > Anthere wrote: > >> Jimbo removed the information added by Yann, and I will ask you not to >> add things which are rumors from the Internet, but will appear >> official as soon as WE report them. > > > I'm not sure I will continue to participate in Wikimedia Foundation > activities until this is resolved. In particular, multiple reverts with > no edit summaries from Jimbo, and locking pages after removing > information is no way to run a Wiki. Meta is a place where any user may > place information---you guys can censor wikimediafoundation.org if you > want, but please don't fuck up meta. > > -Mark From beesley at gmail.com Sat Feb 12 13:18:27 2005 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:18:27 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <420DF8C8.4010805@yahoo.com> References: <420CBF14.2000806@gmail.com> <200502111553.22298.yann@forget-me.net> <420CE5DA.2040108@yahoo.com> <420DB373.1030105@hackish.org> <420DF8C8.4010805@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8b722b8005021205186d4b9ae8@mail.gmail.com> Delirium wrote: > I'm not sure I will continue to participate in Wikimedia Foundation > activities until this is resolved. In particular, multiple reverts with > no edit summaries from Jimbo Jimbo made one revert and I explained to Yann by email why the page was locked. > and locking pages after removing information is no way to run a Wiki. The page was locked before that, and was done for reasons of vandalism. Anthere wrote: > However, the article posted on meta > (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Google_hosting) is not an official > statement by the board in any way. Angela very likely posted it to > clarify questions asked by editors on the irc channels. I wrote it after it was being asked about on the mailing list. I thought it was a better idea to have something there as opposed to nothing but rumors on IRC. The page basically says nothing that wasn't already on the mailing list. > I personally discovered the page only > the next day, following the link from the /. article. The page was mentioned on this mailing list before it was on Slashdot. > The fact > that a board member can post something casually on meta to inform > editors, and this post is considered a board official announcement... I believe the fact that a board member did it is irrelevant. Nowhere this page is reported mentions that it was written by me. In fact, off-IRC, this is the first time it's been said that I wrote the page. I doubt, therefore, that the reporters thinking of it as official are basing this view on who wrote it. Most people wouldn't know to check the page history. It wouldn't surprise me if they'd have seen any page on meta as official, regardless of authorship. > - Did the board wish to make a public announcement ? No. It would have been phrased as an announcement if that had been the case. > - If it had done so, would it have been done on meta ? No. Official things should go on the foundation wiki. > - Is there a difference between family talk on irc only available on > editors logs, and statement on a wiki page which can be linked by > everyone in the world ? No. Much of the information reported on the mailing list and Slashdot came from IRC anyway. > - Does an official non official public statement hurt the likelihood of > the deal or not ? Perhaps Jimbo can answer that since he's been in contact with them since the Slashdot article. > - Now that most editors consider it official, what if the other board > members do not fully agree with it ? What exactly do you not agree with? > - Now that bloggers and newspapers consider it official, does the > Foundation have a right to "control" what appears to be official > statement by itself ? Perhaps adding a "this is not official" notice would be better? > All what is above is only my opinion, not an official statement by the > Foundation :-) Ditto. Angela. From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 12 14:00:45 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:00:45 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia References: <420CBF14.2000806@gmail.com> <200502111553.22298.yann@forget-me.net> <420CE5DA.2040108@yahoo.com> <420DB373.1030105@hackish.org> <420DF8C8.4010805@yahoo.com> <8b722b8005021205186d4b9ae8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <420E0C0D.2060001@yahoo.com> Angela a ?crit: >>I personally discovered the page only >>the next day, following the link from the /. article. > > > The page was mentioned on this mailing list before it was on Slashdot. Still, I discovered /. before I read all the mails on the ml :-) I read the mailing lists through gname, so only from home and not all the time. Plus there is a time discrepancy between the moment a mail is posted and it appears on gname. So, no sorry, I discovered it through /. :-) Either way, it does not matter, I just meant to clarify that this was not an official statement. >>- Did the board wish to make a public announcement ? > > > No. It would have been phrased as an announcement if that had been the case. > > >>- If it had done so, would it have been done on meta ? > > > No. Official things should go on the foundation wiki. > > >>- Is there a difference between family talk on irc only available on >>editors logs, and statement on a wiki page which can be linked by >>everyone in the world ? > > > No. Much of the information reported on the mailing list and Slashdot > came from IRC anyway. Yes. This is exactly what I explained to Mark. However, this is not what the outside world understand, because they just do not work as we do. Look at a few announcements : http://www.technewsworld.com/story/news/40554.html "The Wikimedia Foundation, the nonprofit organization that operates the Wikipedia project among others, said Google (Nasdaq: GOOG) Latest News about Google has offered to host part of the free encyclopedia's content. " or "The foundation posted a short announcement on its Web site, which said that the terms (as yet undisclosed) were being considered by the Wikimedia board and that the group would meet with Google sometime in March." with a link the page you created. According to this journalist, what you posted (and that could have been posted by any of us, or even an anonymous person) was interpretated by "The foundation posted". But the Foundation did not posted, you did. Several bloggers just interpret the page the same way as this journal does. The page casually created on meta is said an official announcement. It is not. I do not say it is critical in any way. But that mean what any of us say may be interpretated as "official", and if this is seen official, then it is logical at least that it is protected. Otherwise, it should just be deleted. >>- Now that most editors consider it official, what if the other board >>members do not fully agree with it ? > > > What exactly do you not agree with? I was asked to keep details confidential. >>- Now that bloggers and newspapers consider it official, does the >>Foundation have a right to "control" what appears to be official >>statement by itself ? > > > Perhaps adding a "this is not official" notice would be better? This is too late I fear :-) But why not ? But Angela, in any cases, I think we have to think about this for the future. >>All what is above is only my opinion, not an official statement by the >>Foundation :-) > > > Ditto. > > Angela. I must insist I do not criticize you in any way for setting up that page. The only points which concerns me in the long term are 1) that meta is used as a source of official news which are not and 2) that non official news transformed in official news should be protected without being called censorship. From magnus.manske at web.de Sat Feb 12 14:25:08 2005 From: magnus.manske at web.de (Magnus Manske) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:25:08 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <20050211192641.29383.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050211192641.29383.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <420E11C4.9060300@web.de> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Daniel Mayer schrieb: | --- Delirium wrote: | |>What'd be *really* great is if they also donated a working search |>feature. =D | | | Only if it is free software. Well, they *could* feed their normal search service the data from a DB slave located at the Google farm. That would be (almost) live. Then, they could let us grab the google search results via SOAP and display them as our own, with a little "search powered by google" maybe. Magnus -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCDhHECZKBJbEFcz0RAqEXAJ41h0SRlTrnXdSyE1+k3KsyjHPxfgCdF5HM Zhgi1IC248bhaXPUke7nEto= =Nr1c -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nsk2 at wikinerds.org Sat Feb 12 15:03:15 2005 From: nsk2 at wikinerds.org (NSK) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 17:03:15 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <420E11C4.9060300@web.de> References: <20050211192641.29383.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <420E11C4.9060300@web.de> Message-ID: <200502121703.15486.nsk2@wikinerds.org> On Saturday 12 February 2005 16:25, Magnus Manske wrote: > Well, they *could* feed their normal search service the data from a DB > slave located at the Google farm. That would be (almost) live. Perhaps you should ask them to donate you a Google Mini: http://www.google.com/enterprise/mini/ -- NSK http://portal.wikinerds.org From delirium at hackish.org Sat Feb 12 20:36:30 2005 From: delirium at hackish.org (Delirium) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:36:30 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <420DF8C8.4010805@yahoo.com> References: <420CBF14.2000806@gmail.com> <200502111553.22298.yann@forget-me.net> <420CE5DA.2040108@yahoo.com> <420DB373.1030105@hackish.org> <420DF8C8.4010805@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <420E68CE.4090601@hackish.org> Anthere wrote: > [some stuff] Thanks for the reply; it does seem reasonable enough. I'm pretty uncomfortable with any sort of secrecy, but I'm not going to argue that it's absolutely unallowable in all cases. I'm also a bit uncomfortable with large-budget nonprofit organizations to begin with, especially those with paid employees, and Wikimedia is starting to creep up into that range, so there seem to be some basic philosophical differences in the current direction of the organization and the sort of organization I'd prefer to support. -Mark From christiaan at last-straw.net Sat Feb 12 21:38:52 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:38:52 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Including an STV voting system with MediaWiki Message-ID: <7fd5079b826d568bcf40fadc8b32be26@last-straw.net> With the recent votes on the Wikinews logo it occurred to me how much better it would be if we could do such votes using a proportional preference voting system like STV (Single Transferable Vote). I had a look around and noticed that there is at least one web browser-based STV counting software package out there which is open source and written in PHP. It would be interesting to see if we could adapt this for use in MediaWiki to handle inputs from multiple users over multiple days. http://www.demochoice.org/ Christiaan From erik_moeller at gmx.de Sun Feb 13 03:17:40 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 04:17:40 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Fair use on Wikinews; local uploads disabled Message-ID: <420EC6D4.8070009@gmx.de> Local uploads have been disabled on the English Wikinews from the start. Uploads are only possible through the Wikimedia Commons. This is meant to make the upload of "fair use" images as well as images under other non-free licenses impossible, and generally encourage use of the Commons. The decision to disable uploads on the English Wikinews was made in accord with Jimmy. Uploads on the other wikis were only enabled to begin with in order to allow them to replace the logo. Since that has now happened, local uploads are disabled there as well. In order to nicely integrate a link to the Commons into the sidebar, I suggest using [[MediaWiki:Currentevents]] as well as [[MediaWiki:Currentevents-url]], which are pointless in Wikinews anyway since the entire wiki is about Current Events. You can point those directly to [[Commons:Special:Upload]], which will then put users on the Commons upload form if they are logged in. The decision to disable uploads is not permanent and subject to change. The reasoning behind this decision is as follows. Wikinews is a project which directly competes with major news organizations, magazines and newspapers. It also allows and encourages commercial use of its content. Fair use of photos from a news agency, for example, is very difficult to justify under these circumstances. But regardless of the legal arguments, there is also the practical argument that Wikinews will soon be perceived as a threat, because most of its stories are based on reporting done by others -- and we give it away for free, while they charge money. These people will eventually try to stop us by all means necessary. There is a distinct possibility that we will face issues similar to SCO v. Linux, where a competitor accuses us of stealing content -- even if we didn't. Fair use, being so volatile in its definition, makes a successful attack more likely and opens us up to additional legal risks. That is why uploads will not be enabled until it is fully clear under what circumstances non-free licenses can be allowed. Work is currently being done on the English Wikinews to formulate a "fair use" policy. I encourage other Wikinews editions to do the same. Fair use on Wikinews could encompass things like logos, graphics, screenshots -- or photos that have not been produced by competing organizations and companies. Once that policy is written, we shall submit it to the Board for approval and possibly legal review. If it passes that review, uploads will be re-enabled. The same goes for all the other Wikinews editions. In the meantime, I ask you to only upload images under free licenses or in the public domain, directly to the Wikimedia Commons. Uploading them there does not affect the image syntax at all -- you can use them like you would use a local image. But they will not show up in Wikinews Recent Changes. If the Board would like this decision to be reverted, please let me know. Otherwise I will coordinate the next steps as described. All best, Erik From jwales at wikia.com Sun Feb 13 05:54:17 2005 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:54:17 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <200502112145.24714.yann@forget-me.net> References: <420CBF14.2000806@gmail.com> <200502111553.22298.yann@forget-me.net> <420CE5DA.2040108@yahoo.com> <200502112145.24714.yann@forget-me.net> Message-ID: <20050213055417.GK19851@wikia.com> Yann Forget wrote: > Anthere, the information i added come from the foundation-l mailing list, not > "rumors from the Internet". Well, foundation-l is an unmoderated mailing list on the Internet, no? :-) --Jimbo From jwales at wikia.com Sun Feb 13 06:23:16 2005 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:23:16 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? In-Reply-To: <420A5EB8.2080606@yahoo.com> References: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> <420A4EE8.2070807@yahoo.com> <05f501c50ed8$75bbbd90$7f00a8c0@akl> <420A5EB8.2080606@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050213062316.GD30708@wikia.com> Anthere wrote: > >That sounds not very plausible because to my knowledge the US trademark > >is a pre-condition to apply for registration in the EU according to the > >Madrid Agreement. > > Well, still... according to Jimbo... this is a fact. The pre-condition is actually an *application* in the US. I had the same misconception as akl for a long time. There's a Madrid Protocol and a Madrid Agreement, and they are different. > I am interested by this agreement ... you mean something can't get > protected unless it is first protected in the USA ??? There's a concept of a "home" country and "other countries". If you are registering first in France, then you can use that to get protection in the US. That is, it is because we are based in the US that the US had to be done first. (Or maybe not, it's all very confusing, all I really know is how I did it.) If you were registering in France, that would have to go first. (Or maybe EU-wide first, I really have no clue.) > Nod. Jimbo promised to do it within the next few days. If not, we need > to torture him to do so. :-) The stuff is on my desk to give all details. --Jimbo From brion at pobox.com Sun Feb 13 07:52:33 2005 From: brion at pobox.com (Brion Vibber) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 23:52:33 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Google Donating Bandwidth and Servers to Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <20050213055417.GK19851@wikia.com> References: <420CBF14.2000806@gmail.com> <200502111553.22298.yann@forget-me.net> <420CE5DA.2040108@yahoo.com> <200502112145.24714.yann@forget-me.net> <20050213055417.GK19851@wikia.com> Message-ID: <420F0741.2030403@pobox.com> Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote: > Yann Forget wrote: >> Anthere, the information i added come from the foundation-l mailing >> list, not "rumors from the Internet". > > > Well, foundation-l is an unmoderated mailing list on the Internet, > no? :-) "You can edit this official board announcement right now!" Side note: I spent all Saturday sitting in a booth in the Southern California Linux Expo exhibition hall demoing Wikipedia and talking to people about just what this crazy thing of ours is. Maybe half the people I talked to who already knew what we were (and that's most of the people with the courage to talk to me!) asked about the Google thing... It's kind of frustrating when "big news" breaks at this stage, because I don't really have any details to give them and have to hem and haw that it's still at the early offer stages and there's nothing solid. C'est la vie... :) -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 253 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20050212/dc34ab4b/attachment-0001.pgp From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 13 10:53:46 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 11:53:46 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? References: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> <420A4EE8.2070807@yahoo.com> <05f501c50ed8$75bbbd90$7f00a8c0@akl> <420A5EB8.2080606@yahoo.com> <20050213062316.GD30708@wikia.com> Message-ID: <420F31BA.5010309@yahoo.com> Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales a ?crit: > Anthere wrote: > >>>That sounds not very plausible because to my knowledge the US trademark >>>is a pre-condition to apply for registration in the EU according to the >>>Madrid Agreement. >> >>Well, still... according to Jimbo... this is a fact. > > > The pre-condition is actually an *application* in the US. I had the same > misconception as akl for a long time. There's a Madrid Protocol and a > Madrid Agreement, and they are different. > > >>I am interested by this agreement ... you mean something can't get >>protected unless it is first protected in the USA ??? > > > There's a concept of a "home" country and "other countries". If you > are registering first in France, then you can use that to get > protection in the US. That is, it is because we are based in the US > that the US had to be done first. (Or maybe not, it's all very > confusing, all I really know is how I did it.) If you were > registering in France, that would have to go first. (Or maybe EU-wide > first, I really have no clue.) Oh, right. That really makes sense then... In this case, akl is really correct... it is curious we got the protection in Europe and Japan before getting it in the home country :-) Anthere >>Nod. Jimbo promised to do it within the next few days. If not, we need >>to torture him to do so. > > > :-) > > The stuff is on my desk to give all details. > > --Jimbo From wikipedia at klempert.de Sun Feb 13 13:45:47 2005 From: wikipedia at klempert.de (Arne Klempert) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:45:47 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? References: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de> <420A4EE8.2070807@yahoo.com><05f501c50ed8$75bbbd90$7f00a8c0@akl> <420A5EB8.2080606@yahoo.com> <20050213062316.GD30708@wikia.com> Message-ID: <07bd01c511d2$5305f1b0$4800a8c0@homeworker> Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote: > > Nod. Jimbo promised to do it within the next few days. If not, we need > > to torture him to do so. > > :-) > > The stuff is on my desk to give all details. I found public information from the US Patent and Trademark Office (including Madrid Protocol information) that are obviously up to date: http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=searchss&state=ip39pb.1.1 Search Term: "Wikimedia" Field: "ALL" 1 78507335 MEDIA WIKI Status: http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=78507335 2 78483359 WIKIPEDIA Status: http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=78483359 3 78507349 WIKINEWS Status: http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=78507349 To get back to the subject, I propose the registration of "Wikimedia" -Arne (akl) From wikipedia at klempert.de Sun Feb 13 13:51:27 2005 From: wikipedia at klempert.de (Arne Klempert) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:51:27 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Progress on wikimedia.com? References: <42097C6A.1020500@gmx.de><420A4EE8.2070807@yahoo.com><05f501c50ed8$75bbbd90$7f00a8c0@akl><420A5EB8.2080606@yahoo.com> <20050213062316.GD30708@wikia.com> <07bd01c511d2$5305f1b0$4800a8c0@homeworker> Message-ID: <07c901c511d3$1d96c940$4800a8c0@homeworker> Arne Klempert wrote: > > I found public information from the US Patent and Trademark Office > (including Madrid Protocol information) that are obviously up to date: > > http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=searchss&state=ip39pb.1.1 > Search Term: "Wikimedia" > Field: "ALL" Damn! (Sessions) Move to http://www.uspto.gov/main/trademarks.htm and click "SEARCH trademarks" -Arne (akl) From juvasul at ut.ee Sun Feb 13 14:50:24 2005 From: juvasul at ut.ee (Sulev Iva) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:50:24 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] =?windows-1257?q?Re=3A_=5BWikipedia-l=5D_V=F5ro_V?= =?windows-1257?q?ikipeedi=E4?= In-Reply-To: <8b722b800502021011eb7dfd4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <415SN538HEWQUQ2XC0KJ7172FCZTNJ.420f6930@t-sopnv013al8s1> Dear members of Wikipedia-l and Foundation-l, I asked for creation of V?ro Wikipedia last month in foundation-l and request page: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages#V.C3.B5ro_Wikipedia. Angela forwarded it also to the Wikipedia-l. It was proposed in the discussion that the code for V?ro Wikipedia could be for the first time "fiu-vro" or "fiu-voro". There was no serious objections against creating. Does somebody know when the V?ro Wikipedia will be created? (By the way: on what the creation depends, who and when decides it?) What else should be done by me before? Regards Sulev (V?rok) 2.02.2005 20:11:58, Angela kirot': >Forwarding from foundation-l to wikipedia-l since there was no >reaction on that list.... > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >From: Sulev Iva >Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 19:43:52 +0200 >Subject: [Foundation-l] V?ro Vikipeedi? >To: foundation-l at wikimedia.org > > >Dear members of the foundaton, >I'm a user of Estonian (V?rok) and English Wikipedia (V?rolang) and a >native speaker, >researcher and activist of the V?ro language spoken in Estonia. V?ro >(native name V?ro >or V?ro kiil?) belongs to the Finnic branch of the Finno-Ugric >languages. It has about >70.000 speakers mostly in southern Estonia. >Language codes (not yet official) are Vro and Vr. See more about V?ro in >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V?ro and http://www.wi.ee/. > >I and my friends would like to begin with V?ro language Wikipedia. We >can translate >Estonian language file to V?ro (actually we have already started) and begin with >creation of new articles. Of course your objection may be that there are too few >speakers of V?ro. Yes, but the speakers are quite active and >computerized people and >the V?ro language community needs an encyclopedia in their own >language. I'm sure the >number of potential editors in V?ro is not smaller than the Kashoub, >Cornish, Gaelic, >Faroese or Saami's or many other small languages' one. I have >discussed the idea of >V?ro Wikipedia with Estonian Wikipedia developers: Andres, Ker, Klaus etc. >(http://et.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikipeedia:Community_Portal#V.C3.B5rukeelne_Wikipedia). >They are supporting the idea and will help us. I hope you will support us too. >Best regards, V?rolang -- 80.235.61.143 11:33, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC) >_______________________________________________ >Wikipedia-l mailing list >Wikipedia-l at Wikimedia.org >http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l > From gerard.meijssen at gmail.com Sun Feb 13 21:39:04 2005 From: gerard.meijssen at gmail.com (Gerard Meijssen) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:39:04 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] IFAP Message-ID: <420FC8F8.8090000@gmail.com> Hoi, I have written a proposal on grants.wikimedia.org In it you find a proposal for spending as much as we can get from UNESCO under their IFAP program. To ask for this grant we HAVE to apply before the 20th of Februari. http://www.unesco.org/webworld/ifapprojects/manuals/instructions.pdf is the PDF with the instructions that we have to comply with. One issue is that we have to involve the national IFAP committees .. :( I do not see how this can be done practically) This will have to be discussed how this is to be done practically.. One answer that can be given is, that we are already working towards our goals. The money we ask for will give our efforts a shot in the arm. There are two considerations: When we apply for this grant, we will have to spend the money according to how we apply for the grant. This means that we have to do this, criticism from any and all not withstanding. Another thing is that by asking for grants, we let big donors decide how we spend money and we will have admin because of it. It makes sense to allow our smaller donors also to have this spending power. Please read "Donations: putting your money where your mouth is" on Meta.. Thanks, Gerard From walter at wikipedia.be Sun Feb 13 21:54:50 2005 From: walter at wikipedia.be (Walter Vermeir) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:54:50 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Promo-stuff shop of openstuff. In-Reply-To: <1107886671.834230.278460559.11862.23@ticket.wikimedia.org> References: <10097.82.174.201.237.1107855693.squirrel@82.174.201.237> <1107886671.834230.278460559.11862.23@ticket.wikimedia.org> Message-ID: Wikimedia Foundation schreef: > ---- Forwarded message from "Walter Vermeir ." ---- > > >>Hi, >> >>This shop is selling stuff from opensource projects; >>http://openstuff.net [cut] Thanks for the support. I contact openstuff to ask what the options are. -- [[w:nl:gebruiker:walter]] From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Sun Feb 13 22:18:05 2005 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 17:18:05 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] IFAP In-Reply-To: <420FC8F8.8090000@gmail.com> References: <420FC8F8.8090000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <742dfd0605021314186486f86e@mail.gmail.com> For more information about this grant (which you can actually read and edit), see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants/IFAP. Another proposal for the UNESCO grant, suggested to me by some librarian friends of mine, is also listed on that Meta: page. Please discuss the relative merits of the two proposals on the discussion page. I worry that the wiktionary proposal is not closely-enough aligned with the current grant goals... though of course it is in line with the much vaguer and more general IFAP goals. The primary goals for the current grant are more about educating professionals than about producing content : [ ] Promoting information literacy, through capacity building particularly for information professionals [ ] Strengthening awareness about the importance of preservation of information of all kinds [ ] Promoting a better understanding of the ethical, legal and societal implications of ICTs ( ICTs : Information and Communication Technologies ) --SJ PS -- please develop basic grant proposals on meta, since not everyone has access to the grants wiki (and it is mainly for the rare bits of information which for whatever reason shouldn't be public and googlable). On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 22:39:04 +0100, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > Hoi, > I have written a proposal on grants.wikimedia.org In it you find a > proposal for spending as much as we can get from UNESCO under their IFAP > program. To ask for this grant we HAVE to apply before the 20th of Februari. > > http://www.unesco.org/webworld/ifapprojects/manuals/instructions.pdf is > the PDF with the instructions that we have to comply with. > > One issue is that we have to involve the national IFAP committees .. :( > I do not see how this can be done practically) This will have to be > discussed how this is to be done practically.. > One answer that can be given is, that we are already working towards our > goals. From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 13 22:31:34 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:31:34 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: IFAP References: <420FC8F8.8090000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <420FD546.4090703@yahoo.com> Hello Just in case some people wonder where this comes from... We had a grant meeting today on irc (as announced a couple of days ago on this list). It lasted nearly three hours, and was extremely fruitful. Some of the grants we are thinking of will be worked on meta, while others will be worked on the grant wiki. Please contact Danny if you are interested in giving some of your time and energy to these topics. Meanwhile, any feedback is welcome on meta. Thanks Anthere Gerard Meijssen a ?crit: > Hoi, > I have written a proposal on grants.wikimedia.org In it you find a > proposal for spending as much as we can get from UNESCO under their IFAP > program. To ask for this grant we HAVE to apply before the 20th of Februari. > > http://www.unesco.org/webworld/ifapprojects/manuals/instructions.pdf is > the PDF with the instructions that we have to comply with. > > One issue is that we have to involve the national IFAP committees .. :( > I do not see how this can be done practically) This will have to be > discussed how this is to be done practically.. > One answer that can be given is, that we are already working towards our > goals. > > The money we ask for will give our efforts a shot in the arm. There are > two considerations: When we apply for this grant, we will have to spend > the money according to how we apply for the grant. This means that we > have to do this, criticism from any and all not withstanding. Another > thing is that by asking for grants, we let big donors decide how we > spend money and we will have admin because of it. It makes sense to > allow our smaller donors also to have this spending power. Please read > "Donations: putting your money where your mouth is" on Meta.. > > Thanks, > Gerard From charles.podles at gmail.com Mon Feb 14 00:43:14 2005 From: charles.podles at gmail.com (Charles Podles) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:43:14 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] On the blocking of anonymous proxies Message-ID: An anonymous user posted the following on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Blocking_policy : == Blocking anonymizer's proxies is unconstitutional == *'''The right to anonymous free speech is protected by the 1st amendment of the US constitution.''' *'''Anonymity--the ability to conceal one's identity while communicating--enables the expression of political ideas and the practice of religious belief without fear of intimidation or public retaliation.''' :''Protections for anonymous speech are vital to democratic discourse. Allowing dissenters to shield their identities frees them to express critical, minority views . . . Anonymity is a shield from the tyranny of the majority. . . . It thus exemplifies the purpose behind the Bill of Rights, and of the First Amendment in particular: to protect unpopular individuals from retaliation . . . at the hand of an intolerant society.'' :Supreme Court ruling in McIntyre v. Ohio Elections Commission, 1995. Some Wikipedia members (sysops) have implemented a policy to routinely block users that choose to post using an anonymous proxy ([[Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Anonymous_and_open_proxies]]) These members of Wikipedia have decided to block the ability of people to the right of anonymity giving reasons related to the need to curb vandalism of articles. These are not sufficient reasons to limit my liberties and the liberties of others. The WP community is strong enough to withstand vandalism, without resorting to these measures. Case in point: On February 9, [[User:David.Monniaux]] blocked IP address 168.143.113.125 (anonymizer.com), a respected and paid service for anonymous browsing. This IP address was used by hundreds of WP users that wanted to protect their anonymity. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=168.143.113.125. The steps taken by David Monniaux in blocking of that IP address have been disputed by me. ([[Talk:French_legislation_against_cult_abuses#Controversy_with_an_anonymous_user]]. I kindly request Wikipedia editors to re-open the debate about the right of the people to contribute to Wikipedia while protecting their rights to free speech, and to curb sysop powers to utilize blocking policies. Copies of the above have been sent to: * The Electronic Privacy Information Center http://epic.org/ * The Electronic Frontier Foundation http://www.eff.org/ * The American Civil Liberties Union http://aclu.org/ --[[User:38.119.107.72|38.119.107.72]] 23:53, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC) From charles.podles at gmail.com Mon Feb 14 00:45:39 2005 From: charles.podles at gmail.com (Charles Podles) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:45:39 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] On the blocking of anonymous proxies (pt. 2) Message-ID: (Last message accidentally sent prematurely---sorry. Continued:) Is s/he just blowing smoke, or is this a serious issue? What is the relationship between the policy of each Wikipedia and the policies of the Foundation in general? From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Mon Feb 14 02:01:25 2005 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:01:25 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: IFAP In-Reply-To: <420FD546.4090703@yahoo.com> References: <420FC8F8.8090000@gmail.com> <420FD546.4090703@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <742dfd0605021318012f0282ee@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:31:34 +0100, Anthere wrote: > Hello > > Just in case some people wonder where this comes from... > We had a grant meeting today on irc (as announced a couple of days ago > on this list). It lasted nearly three hours, and was extremely fruitful. Speaking of meetings, will there be another meeting to discuss NEH grants and searching for further applicable grants? > Meanwhile, any feedback is welcome on meta. Where on meta should people give general feedback on Grants? Is there a place to suggest new grants, or to suggest project proposals for which we should find a suitable grant? Cheers, +sj+ From robert_horning at netzero.net Mon Feb 14 02:30:24 2005 From: robert_horning at netzero.net (Robert Scott Horning) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:30:24 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Shavian Wikis References: Message-ID: <42100D40.5040407@netzero.net> Joe wrote: >On 2/11/05 5:50 PM, "Brion Vibber" wrote: > > >>Tok Pisin is a creole language which is spoken natively by actual >>people. The 'Simple English' Wikipedia was created long, long ago and to >>this day it's unclear what its intended mission is. >> >> > >If the English loanwords in Tok Pisin were spelled the same as their English >origins, much of it would be mutually intelligible. Besides the slight >difference in grammar and various words from other languages, the biggest >difference is in spelling. This isn't meant to be an exact match, >though--just an example. I recognize the difference. > > > I've had a chance to hear native speakers of Tok Pisin. For a native English speaker, it is a really bizzare experience, because you start listening to them speak, and you think you understand about 50%-60% of what they are speaking due to familiar words. Then suddenly as you start listening a bit more you discover that you are completely lost and don't even have a clue as to what is being said. From my own linguistic experience, I would have to say that I understand a native German speaker due to cognates better than I understand a native Tok Pisin speaker. If you are trying to determine if a language is truly unique enough to justify having it as a seperate language wiki on Wikipedia, Tok Pisin clearly fits the bill with some very different language structures than are commonly found in English, and IMHO qualifies as a seperate language. Certainly as different as between Dutch or German or between Spanish and Portuguese, and perhaps more so. The only hesitation to creating it as a language Wikipedia is sheer number of participants able to contribute content, and at the moment I'm not volunteering. It does appear, however, that roughly 26 people have already volunteered to add content to the current Tok Pisin Wikipedia and about 60 articles. ( http://tpi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page ) -- Robert Scott Horning 218 Sunstone Circle Logan, UT 84321 (435) 753-3330 robert_horning at netzero.net From kylelutze at cox.net Mon Feb 14 03:41:11 2005 From: kylelutze at cox.net (kylelutze) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:41:11 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] On the blocking of anonymous proxies (pt. 2) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42101DD7.50304@cox.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 well, here's my question then, if you don't want to block proxies, then what is your suggestion to take care of the massive ammount of spam? wikipedia isn't ment to be an opinion based site for people to express their views, it's meant to be an encyclopedia, stating only the facts, so why would people need to be anonymous when editing or adding new articles, unless trolling? On another point, for blocking proxies, it may be nice to somehow take advantage of the abusive host blocking list (ahbl.org, hosted by sosdg.org). I believe that's the one for blocking proxies, etc. or there may be another one on that site. I personally believe that proxies shouldn't be used for going to wikipedia as you can hide your IP by creating an account. Kyle Charles Podles wrote: | (Last message accidentally sent prematurely---sorry. Continued:) | | Is s/he just blowing smoke, or is this a serious issue? What is the | relationship between the policy of each Wikipedia and the policies of | the Foundation in general? | _______________________________________________ | foundation-l mailing list | foundation-l at wikimedia.org | http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCEB3XqTDXh8jUGRYRAhUdAJ9ymdOsr4OohxP+jsakQ7Fu7pqZmwCfdRoU 6kBndC8WvyqKarYJFCAveFQ= =gr19 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From walter at vankalken.net Mon Feb 14 05:04:35 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:04:35 +0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] On the blocking of anonymous proxies (pt. 2) In-Reply-To: <42101DD7.50304@cox.net> References: <42101DD7.50304@cox. net> Message-ID: <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> kylelutze wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > well, here's my question then, if you don't want to block proxies, then > what is your suggestion to take care of the massive ammount of spam? > wikipedia isn't ment to be an opinion based site for people to express > their views, it's meant to be an encyclopedia, stating only the facts, > so why would people need to be anonymous when editing or adding new > articles, unless trolling? > > On another point, for blocking proxies, it may be nice to somehow take > advantage of the abusive host blocking list (ahbl.org, hosted by > sosdg.org). I believe that's the one for blocking proxies, etc. or there > may be another one on that site. I personally believe that proxies > shouldn't be used for going to wikipedia as you can hide your IP by > creating an account. > > Kyle > Well if you propose blocking these you propose blocking ME and a couple of hundred thousand Thai's who are with True / Asia internet as the provider forces us to use open proxies. I am one of the most active editors on nl.wikipedia. So they will be glad to hear you think that. For your info I cannot change internet ISP. I wonder how many other people this is the case for! Walter van Kalken (Waerth) From anthere9 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 14 05:09:01 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 06:09:01 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: IFAP References: <420FC8F8.8090000@gmail.com> <420FD546.4090703@yahoo.com> <742dfd0605021318012f0282ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4210326D.3030008@yahoo.com> Sj a ?crit: > On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:31:34 +0100, Anthere wrote: > >>Hello >> >>Just in case some people wonder where this comes from... >>We had a grant meeting today on irc (as announced a couple of days ago >>on this list). It lasted nearly three hours, and was extremely fruitful. > > > Speaking of meetings, will there be another meeting to discuss NEH > grants and searching for further applicable grants? Most probably since we did not have the time to discuss it yesterday. This would be best done when we have first covered the ones discussed yesterday but sufficiently in time before the next ones deadlines. >>Meanwhile, any feedback is welcome on meta. > > > Where on meta should people give general feedback on Grants? > Is there a place to suggest new grants, or to suggest project proposals > for which we should find a suitable grant? > > Cheers, > +sj+ On http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/grants (which would benefit from a clean up), its related pages and talk pages :-) Ant From walter at vankalken.net Mon Feb 14 05:47:26 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:47:26 +0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] blocked again op Japan In-Reply-To: <42101DD7.50304@cox.net> References: <42101DD7.50304@cox. net> Message-ID: <42103B6E.7090904@vankalken.net> And again I am blocked on the Japanese wikipedia. You almost think they do not want to have editors who actually make usefull edits. I might start removing interwiki links to Japanese wikipedia from nl: as they do now want strangers to edit and thus directly violate the spirit of wikipedia. Frustrated, Waerth From kylelutze at cox.net Mon Feb 14 05:58:04 2005 From: kylelutze at cox.net (kylelutze) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:58:04 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] On the blocking of anonymous proxies (pt. 2) In-Reply-To: <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> References: <42101DD7.50304@cox. net> <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 sorry, I didn't know that was the situation for people there, in that case I think we need to come up with a better alternative solution, what, I don't know yet Walter van Kalken wrote: | kylelutze wrote: | |> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- |> Hash: SHA1 |> |> |> well, here's my question then, if you don't want to block proxies, then |> what is your suggestion to take care of the massive ammount of spam? |> wikipedia isn't ment to be an opinion based site for people to express |> their views, it's meant to be an encyclopedia, stating only the facts, |> so why would people need to be anonymous when editing or adding new |> articles, unless trolling? |> |> On another point, for blocking proxies, it may be nice to somehow take |> advantage of the abusive host blocking list (ahbl.org, hosted by |> sosdg.org). I believe that's the one for blocking proxies, etc. or there |> may be another one on that site. I personally believe that proxies |> shouldn't be used for going to wikipedia as you can hide your IP by |> creating an account. |> |> Kyle |> | Well if you propose blocking these you propose blocking ME and a couple | of hundred thousand Thai's who are with True / Asia internet as the | provider forces us to use open proxies. I am one of the most active | editors on nl.wikipedia. So they will be glad to hear you think that. | For your info I cannot change internet ISP. I wonder how many other | people this is the case for! | | Walter van Kalken (Waerth) | _______________________________________________ | foundation-l mailing list | foundation-l at wikimedia.org | http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCED3rqTDXh8jUGRYRAte1AJ0VgHa6voX2AipdmEznPD6JG2w/lgCeK68W Oevt6XMIkF4lIkYcVY3bPtk= =E2BX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From walter at vankalken.net Mon Feb 14 06:10:09 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:10:09 +0700 Subject: >>: Re: [Foundation-l] On the blocking of anonymous proxies (pt. 2) In-Reply-To: <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> References: <42101DD7.50304@cox. net> <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> Message-ID: <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> kylelutze wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > sorry, I didn't know that was the situation for people there, in that > case I think we need to come up with a better alternative solution, > what, I don't know yet > You don't have to .... after the IRC conversation just now ,,, I think quitting wikipedia is better. I cannot believe people think everywhere is the same as in the merry States or Europe. I have to spend HALF AN HOUR of my fucking day whining just so I can make some small edits??????????? Walter/Waerth From walter at vankalken.net Mon Feb 14 14:13:42 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 21:13:42 +0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Blocking on Japan In-Reply-To: <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> References: <42101DD7.50304@cox. net> <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> It took some but for today I am unblocked do not know for how long though :( I placed this on Japanese wikipedia today Walter van Kalken My name is Waerth, or in real life Walter. I am a Dutch person living in Thailand. I am active on the nl:, en:, af: and th: wikimedia projects. In the last two months everytime I try to do something here I am blocked ... at least my ip address is blocked not my username. Now I heard japanese wikipedia has a blocking policy for open proxies. I understand they give problems. But I also know some people are forced by their ISP's to use them. Like myself. My ISP uses it and I have no choice. I cannot break contract because it would cost me 6000 Thai baht. And my provider gives a good service, I get a discount of 20% on my mobile and home telephone because I use them and they are one company. This provider ... Asianet is used by more than 300.000 people in Thailand. Many Thai people are genuinely interested in Japan and learning Japanese. Also there are many Japanese in Thailand. Some of which will use Asianet as well! By blocking open proxies you are shutting out millions of people of enjoying the Japanese wikipedia. And you are directly violating one of the wikimedia projects goals,,.. to be accessable to everybody. I can complain about this policy because I know how wikipedia works. Many people can not complain because they do not know how to do that. So they go away frustrated and you loose potential contributors. How do I think you can solve this? On dutch nl: I am a sysop and a proponent of hard blocking policies. If somebody vandalizes they get blocked for 24 hours, period. I heard there are problems on Japanese wikipedia with getting sysops and there is a shortage of hands so that is why Japanese as the only wikipedia decided to block open proxies. So you need to get more sysops. Being a sysop doesn't mean much. You just help to keep wikipedia clean. It is not about power!! All you get is some extra buttons to revert vandalism, secure a page and block a vandal. I want to urge on all active users to ask for sysop status to solve this problem! You see if everybody is a sysop, there are no problems with power! because everybody is the same .... a sysop. And everybody can spend 10 minutes a week on cleaning. It is not much extra work really. And than it is easy to unblock the open proxies. Because you have a big group of sysops to stop the vandals! And welcome the people that couldn't use Japanese wikipedia before now. From walter at vankalken.net Mon Feb 14 15:35:02 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 22:35:02 +0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> References: <42101DD7.50304@cox. net> <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> Well it was nice for the 2 or 3 hours I was able to do something. I am blocked yet again op Japanese wikipedia. Waerth/Walter van Kalken From a2k_mail at yahoo.com Mon Feb 14 15:53:01 2005 From: a2k_mail at yahoo.com (Reuven R.) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 07:53:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] wow the whole thing sounds amazingly .... Message-ID: <20050214155304.84774.qmail@web53209.mail.yahoo.com> heyo... i really can't belive it - there're people who actually care enough to help and are constantly block and don't give up... sounds to me like you have some quality support here - i don't know that many other places where people would insist to donate their time and efforts where they seem to _not be welcome_... and for gods sake, it's a wiki - from my expirience vandalism can be undone by users... (that and 1001 other reasons why it doesn't make the least sense on a wiki... o_O) ohh well... (did i mention that it makes no sense?) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From wurdbendur at gmail.com Mon Feb 14 23:45:09 2005 From: wurdbendur at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:45:09 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Shavian Wikis In-Reply-To: <42100D40.5040407@netzero.net> Message-ID: On 2/13/05 9:30 PM, "Robert Scott Horning" wrote: > Joe wrote: >> >> If the English loanwords in Tok Pisin were spelled the same as their English >> origins, much of it would be mutually intelligible. Besides the slight >> difference in grammar and various words from other languages, the biggest >> difference is in spelling. This isn't meant to be an exact match, >> though--just an example. I recognize the difference. >> >> >> > I've had a chance to hear native speakers of Tok Pisin. For a native > English speaker, it is a really bizzare experience, because you start > listening to them speak, and you think you understand about 50%-60% of > what they are speaking due to familiar words. Then suddenly as you > start listening a bit more you discover that you are completely lost and > don't even have a clue as to what is being said. From my own linguistic > experience, I would have to say that I understand a native German > speaker due to cognates better than I understand a native Tok Pisin speaker. I admit, I haven't heard it spoken natively, but I was able to work out most of the grammar after no more than a couple hours of reading. Maybe that's more of a testament to its simplicity than its similarity. I've been working a little on the Tok Pisin Wikipedia under the name WurdBendur (which I also use on en:). It doesn't seem very active, but I assure you that a Shavian Wikipedia would at least match it. > If you are trying to determine if a language is truly unique enough to > justify having it as a seperate language wiki on Wikipedia, Tok Pisin > clearly fits the bill with some very different language structures than > are commonly found in English, and IMHO qualifies as a seperate > language. Certainly as different as between Dutch or German or between > Spanish and Portuguese, and perhaps more so. Probably more, but my real point was not so much about the actual difference as it was about its status as a language. While Tok Pisin is different enough to be a unique language in its own right, it's typically labeled as a pidgin and said to be simply bad English. It doesn't seem to be widely used online, and information about it is scarce. There may be more Shavian users on Wikimedia. A Shavian Wiki would be even more similar to the English one (exactly the same except for spelling). But I'm wondering if there would be a way to offer Shavian without creating a new Wikipedia. There are converters that could transcribe the English automatically (though not very accurately), which might be integrated into Wikipedia. Alternatively, phonemic (or phonetic) text could be stored as one Wikipedia and very easily converted by simple substitution between several phonemic alphabets or spelling systems. This could serve a purpose similar to the Simple English Wikipedia, that being to aid people who don't understand written English well (or who have difficulty pronouncing it in the case of a phonemic Wiki). But if this were possible, it could effectively combine Shavian, Unifon, ITA, IPA, and others in a single Wiki. Are there other Wikis that convert scripts, say between Roman and Cyrillic for example, or has this been considered before? > The only hesitation to creating it as a language Wikipedia is sheer > number of participants able to contribute content, and at the moment I'm > not volunteering. It does appear, however, that roughly 26 people have > already volunteered to add content to the current Tok Pisin Wikipedia > and about 60 articles. ( http://tpi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page ) I'm not contesting Tok Pisin, though. I fully support it if people (like myself) want to use and edit it. Regards, Joe From andreengels at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 14:33:21 2005 From: andreengels at gmail.com (Andre Engels) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:33:21 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> References: <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <6faf39c9050215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> Does anyone have to say anything about this? Or should I just start to collect Japanese IP-addresses to block them on nl: to get a reaction? Andre Engels On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 22:35:02 +0700, Walter van Kalken wrote: > Well it was nice for the 2 or 3 hours I was able to do something. I am > blocked yet again op Japanese wikipedia. > > Waerth/Walter van Kalken From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Tue Feb 15 14:35:49 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 01:35:49 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <6faf39c9050215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> References: <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> <6faf39c9050215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org.au> Andre Engels (andreengels at gmail.com) [050216 01:33]: > On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 22:35:02 +0700, Walter van Kalken > wrote: > > Well it was nice for the 2 or 3 hours I was able to do something. I am > > blocked yet again op Japanese wikipedia. > Does anyone have to say anything about this? Or should I just start to > collect Japanese IP-addresses to block them on nl: to get a reaction? If the ISP in question really is running an open proxy server, then Walter needs to bring it to their attention that this is leaving an abuse-machine wide open, just as if it were an open email relay being used by spammers. - d. From andreengels at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 14:35:55 2005 From: andreengels at gmail.com (Andre Engels) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:35:55 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Blocking on Japan In-Reply-To: <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> References: <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <6faf39c905021506357b77acd@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 21:13:42 +0700, Walter van Kalken wrote: > How do I think you can solve this? On dutch nl: I am a sysop and a > proponent of hard blocking policies. If somebody vandalizes they get > blocked for 24 hours, period. I heard there are problems on Japanese > wikipedia with getting sysops and there is a shortage of hands so that > is why Japanese as the only wikipedia decided to block open proxies. So > you need to get more sysops. I find it rather strange for you to call for hard blocking policy. Apparently you don't mind blocking someone because there are 2 vandals on the same computer or same IP-address, and yet you are complaining for being blocked because there are 50 in the same country. Is there that much difference? Andre Engels From aphaia at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 14:36:01 2005 From: aphaia at gmail.com (Aphaia) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 23:36:01 +0900 Subject: [Foundation-l] [Foundation Site] Update and need of translators Message-ID: <35be2a7105021506366b899299@mail.gmail.com> Before the foundraising, I propose to update the foundation wiki, http://wikimediafoudation.org. I tried to update some pages like "Main page", "Our Projects" and other pages I could update with assistance of some editors and traslators. Until now, besides En, main page was updated in four languages pages (DE, FR, JA, PL). Here I am grateful for our friend translators. But we need much more assistance, more translators. Here is the current situation of major pages: Home - De En Es Fi Fr It Ja Ko Pl Pt Zh About Wikimedia - En Fi Fr It Ja Ko Zh- Our Projects - En Fr It Ja Nl Pt Zh Fundraising - Ar Bg Cs De En Es Fi Fr He It Ja Ko Nl Pl Pt Sv Zh And of course other language translations are welcome. Now there are language barriers and lack of information for us, most of pages on the wmf site remain still not updated. And I expect many visitors of the wmf site, not only donors but also genuine visitors enjoy browsing the wmf site. In my personal view, it were sad only one page is avalable in tongues I can understand ... Some of them was not edited since last September and I feel strongly they need to be renewed: it is a bit clumsy "the latest news" ended in the last September. And I found almost every page should be a bit outdated (it is a self-criticism rather than blame. I am an wmf site editor and left pages too for a long time). I recommend and ask you to check the main page in your language(s) of the wmf site. Particularly the language which has their own donation page. It would be nicer and more frinedly, if we can provide the visitors at least three other pages: Main Page, About and Our Projects. (Any suggestions?) If you would like to join us, please consider to give a look on meta, Translation requests/WMF. URL is: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF#Home The close inforamtion of update are available on that page. If you have a question, please ask it on its talk, #wikimedia or my talk. Your assistance will be appliciated. See you again on meta. ;-) -- Aphaea@*.wikipedia.org email: Aphaia @ gmail (dot) com From walter at vankalken.net Tue Feb 15 15:08:21 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 22:08:21 +0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <42103163.2000706@va nkalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4 210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> <6faf39c905 0215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org.a u> Message-ID: <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> David Gerard wrote: >Andre Engels (andreengels at gmail.com) [050216 01:33]: > > >>On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 22:35:02 +0700, Walter van Kalken >> wrote: >> >> > > > >>>Well it was nice for the 2 or 3 hours I was able to do something. I am >>>blocked yet again op Japanese wikipedia. >>> >>> > > > >>Does anyone have to say anything about this? Or should I just start to >>collect Japanese IP-addresses to block them on nl: to get a reaction? >> >> > > >If the ISP in question really is running an open proxy server, then Walter >needs to bring it to their attention that this is leaving an abuse-machine >wide open, just as if it were an open email relay being used by spammers. > > > > This is not my responsibility. Wikipedia is an open project and it should be open for anyone. Waerth/Walter From andreengels at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 15:26:09 2005 From: andreengels at gmail.com (Andre Engels) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 16:26:09 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] On the blocking of anonymous proxies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6faf39c90502150726107e92bf@mail.gmail.com> Wikipedia is in no way under an obligation to allow anyone to speak out on their pages, just like a publisher is not under an obligation to publish your book. I very much am opposed against blocking anonymous proxies on sight (at least, beyond what is necessary to stop actual ongoing vandalism), but there are no first amendment rights violated. Wikipedia is giving certain means of communication to some, in fact to many, people. It is under no legal obligation to do so, nor to extend this possibility in any way. We are not forbidding or disabling you or anyone else to speak out their mind. We are just restricting who can use OUR material to do so. Andre Engels On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:43:14 -0500, Charles Podles wrote: > An anonymous user posted the following on > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Blocking_policy : > > == Blocking anonymizer's proxies is unconstitutional == > > *'''The right to anonymous free speech is protected by the 1st > amendment of the US constitution.''' > > *'''Anonymity--the ability to conceal one's identity while > communicating--enables the expression of political ideas and the > practice of religious belief without fear of intimidation or public > retaliation.''' > > :''Protections for anonymous speech are vital to democratic discourse. > Allowing dissenters to shield their identities frees them to express > critical, minority views . . . Anonymity is a shield from the tyranny > of the majority. . . . It thus exemplifies the purpose behind the Bill > of Rights, and of the First Amendment in particular: to protect > unpopular individuals from retaliation . . . at the hand of an > intolerant society.'' > :Supreme Court ruling in McIntyre v. Ohio Elections Commission, > 1995. > > Some Wikipedia members (sysops) have implemented a policy to routinely > block users that choose to post using an anonymous proxy > ([[Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Anonymous_and_open_proxies]]) > > These members of Wikipedia have decided to block the ability of people > to the right of anonymity giving reasons related to the need to curb > vandalism of articles. > > These are not sufficient reasons to limit my liberties and the > liberties of others. The WP community is strong enough to withstand > vandalism, without resorting to these measures. > > Case in point: On February 9, [[User:David.Monniaux]] blocked IP > address 168.143.113.125 (anonymizer.com), a respected and paid service > for anonymous browsing. This IP address was used by hundreds of WP > users that wanted to protect their anonymity. > http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=168.143.113.125. > The steps taken by David Monniaux in blocking of that IP address have > been disputed by me. > ([[Talk:French_legislation_against_cult_abuses#Controversy_with_an_anonymous_user]]. > > I kindly request Wikipedia editors to re-open the debate about the > right of the people to contribute to Wikipedia while protecting their > rights to free speech, and to curb sysop powers to utilize blocking > policies. > > Copies of the above have been sent to: > * The Electronic Privacy Information Center http://epic.org/ > * The Electronic Frontier Foundation http://www.eff.org/ > * The American Civil Liberties Union http://aclu.org/ > > --[[User:38.119.107.72|38.119.107.72]] 23:53, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC) > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Tue Feb 15 15:52:31 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:52:31 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> References: <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> <6faf39c9050215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <20050215155231.GO21722@thingy.apana.org.au> Walter van Kalken (walter at vankalken.net) [050216 02:09]: > David Gerard wrote: > >If the ISP in question really is running an open proxy server, then Walter > >needs to bring it to their attention that this is leaving an abuse-machine > >wide open, just as if it were an open email relay being used by spammers. > This is not my responsibility. Wikipedia is an open project and it > should be open for anyone. Unfortunately, open proxies in this manner constitute a public problem on the Internet. Wikipedia blocks them on sight because they are primarily used for abuse. If you HAVE to use that proxy if you want to use that ISP, at this stage it's up to you to get them to run their systems competently. - d. From walter at vankalken.net Tue Feb 15 16:03:03 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 23:03:03 +0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <20050215155231.GO21722@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <42103163.2000706@va nkalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> <6faf39c9 050215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org .au> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> <20050215155231.GO21722@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> > >Unfortunately, open proxies in this manner constitute a public problem on >the Internet. Wikipedia blocks them on sight because they are primarily >used for abuse. > >If you HAVE to use that proxy if you want to use that ISP, at this stage >it's up to you to get them to run their systems competently. > > > If they constituted a problem on all wikipedia's they were blocked on all wiki's it is clear you do not know the situation in other countries. The provider will laugh. If I cancel my contract I have to pay 150 dollars and loose my 20% discount on my telephone lines. I do not have this kind of money. This is food for 3 weeks for me!!! Japanese wikipedia should not block them. I am not a vandal. I wrote over 500 articles on nl. I started nl.wikinews partly. I contributed articles in other languages and you give me this bull?????? Walter van Kalken From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Tue Feb 15 16:18:21 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:18:21 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> References: <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> <6faf39c9050215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> <20050215155231.GO21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> Walter van Kalken (walter at vankalken.net) [050216 03:03]: > >Unfortunately, open proxies in this manner constitute a public problem on > >the Internet. Wikipedia blocks them on sight because they are primarily > >used for abuse. > >If you HAVE to use that proxy if you want to use that ISP, at this stage > >it's up to you to get them to run their systems competently. > If they constituted a problem on all wikipedia's they were blocked on > all wiki's it is clear you do not know the situation in other countries. They're permanently blocked on first abuse on en:, so I'm not surprised that ja: treats them similarly. > The provider will laugh. If I cancel my contract I have to pay 150 > dollars and loose my 20% discount on my telephone lines. I do not have > this kind of money. This is food for 3 weeks for me!!! Unfortunately, this looks more like a bad purchase on your part than a reason to open Wikipedia to abuse. > Japanese > wikipedia should not block them. I am not a vandal. I wrote over 500 > articles on nl. I started nl.wikinews partly. I contributed articles in > other languages and you give me this bull?????? If the proxy was unbanned but then banned again, it strikes me that it was more likely done because of abuse by others than as any sort of personal attack on you, which is what you appear to be treating it as. It still seems truly weird that they would run their proxy server as an open public sewer, but force you to use it. Have you even asked them about this? It's more likely to be an effective move in resolving the problem. - d. From walter at vankalken.net Tue Feb 15 16:25:13 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 23:25:13 +0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421 040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <4210C526.806 0204@vankalken.net> <6faf39c9050215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> <2005021514 3549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> <2005021 5155231.GO21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> <2005 0215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <42122269.3000106@vankalken.net> Ypu really are an ignorant DICKHEAD aren't you?? From walter at vankalken.net Tue Feb 15 16:29:27 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 23:29:27 +0700 Subject: >>: Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> <6faf39c9 050215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org .au> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> <20050215155231.GO21722@thingy.apana. org.au> <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <42122367.9080708@vankalken.net> Thanks for making me see that you really do not give a fuck and do not understand the situation in other countries than your own! It is better for me to quit wikipedia and you are to blame. Waerth From sannse at tiscali.co.uk Tue Feb 15 17:13:25 2005 From: sannse at tiscali.co.uk (sannse) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:13:25 +0000 Subject: >>: Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <42122367.9080708@vankalken.net> References: <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> <6faf39c9 050215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org .au> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> <20050215155231.GO21722@thingy.apana. org.au> <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42122367.9080708@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <42122DB5.6070408@tiscali.co.uk> Walter van Kalken wrote: > [a reply in anger] As I've been saying to Waerth on IRC - David was really trying to give advice here and not to offend. I've been hearing about this situation for a while now, and understand Waerth's deep frustration and anger. But it's new and rather peculiar sounding to most here I think. This situation with his provider is quite different from the one most people will have - but perhaps can be compared with a random user trying to persuade AOL to change its whole system because the user can't access a site they want to see. His provider simply isn't going to listen - however much sense he makes with reasons that proxies are a Bad Thing. And, as Waerth has said, he has no option of changing provider. Waerth has had to put up with regular blocks for a long time through no fault of his own. I think any of us wiki-addicts would be as upset at this. I don't know what the solution is, except for ja. being asked to change their policy here. I don't see why the blocking system cannot be told to ignore this particular set (although I don't know the technicalities of course). Note that these blocks are *not* in response to vandalism - proxies are blocked automatically even if no bad edits have come from that address. Waerth is an excellent contributor, active in foundation issues as well as local issues, it's a real shame to see him distressed by this problem. --sannse -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.8 - Release Date: 14/02/05 From perrin at apotheon.com Tue Feb 15 17:23:41 2005 From: perrin at apotheon.com (Chad Perrin) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:23:41 -0500 Subject: >>: Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <42122367.9080708@vankalken.net> References: <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> <6faf39c9 050215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org .au> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> <20050215155231.GO21722@thingy.apana. org.au> <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42122367.9080708@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <4212301D.7060001@apotheon.com> Walter van Kalken wrote: > and do not > understand the situation in other countries than your own! Perhaps the problem is that you haven't effectively explained why the suggestions you've been given aren't useful. There are two components to understanding: one is being receptive to the information, and the other is presenting it in an understandable manner. Consider whether you've presented it in an understandable manner before blaming others. Another listmember (sannse) has done an admirable job of presenting your concerns, I think, and that example is worth noting. > It is better for me to quit wikipedia and you are to blame. I disagree with that, even though you weren't talking to me. Keep in mind that you can get more done by being nice than by offending the very people you're asking for help. -- Chad From andreengels at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 17:55:00 2005 From: andreengels at gmail.com (Andre Engels) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:55:00 +0100 Subject: >>: Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <4212301D.7060001@apotheon.com> References: <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42122367.9080708@vankalken.net> <4212301D.7060001@apotheon.com> Message-ID: <6faf39c90502150955430916ae@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:23:41 -0500, Chad Perrin wrote: > Perhaps the problem is that you haven't effectively explained why the > suggestions you've been given aren't useful. As if that wasn't clear from the onset. It was to me. Basically, he was being told, "Change the policy of some big firm you are a little customer to, because Wikipedia isn't going to change its policy." > > It is better for me to quit wikipedia and you are to blame. > > I disagree with that, even though you weren't talking to me. Keep in > mind that you can get more done by being nice than by offending the very > people you're asking for help. Maybe being nice is also better than offending the very people you are supposed to be helping. I found David's posts at least as offending as Waerth's reaction to them. Andre Engels From robert_horning at netzero.net Tue Feb 15 19:14:37 2005 From: robert_horning at netzero.net (Robert Scott Horning) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:14:37 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] And blocked again References: <42103163.2000706@va nkalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4 210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> <6faf39c905 0215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org.a u> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <42124A1D.8040606@netzero.net> Walter van Kalken wrote: > David Gerard wrote: > >> Andre Engels (andreengels at gmail.com) [050216 01:33]: >> >> >>> On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 22:35:02 +0700, Walter van Kalken >>> wrote: >>> >>> Does anyone have to say anything about this? Or should I just start to >>> collect Japanese IP-addresses to block them on nl: to get a reaction? >>> >> >> If the ISP in question really is running an open proxy server, then >> Walter >> needs to bring it to their attention that this is leaving an >> abuse-machine >> wide open, just as if it were an open email relay being used by >> spammers. > > This is not my responsibility. Wikipedia is an open project and it > should be open for anyone. > > Waerth/Walter I'd like to add that I am on a dial-up connection where my IP address isn't unique either. It is certainly likely and possible that a Wiki vandal could use the same dial-up connection and use the same IP addresses I use, even though I'm contributing reasonable content to the Wiki. While open proxies are a problem, that isn't always the situation. I'm siding with Walter on this one, and this is a policy that needs to be addressed. -- Robert Scott Horning From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Tue Feb 15 20:49:22 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:49:22 +1100 Subject: >>: Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <6faf39c90502150955430916ae@mail.gmail.com> References: <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42122367.9080708@vankalken.net> <4212301D.7060001@apotheon.com> <6faf39c90502150955430916ae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050215204922.GQ21722@thingy.apana.org.au> Andre Engels (andreengels at gmail.com) [050216 04:55]: > On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:23:41 -0500, Chad Perrin wrote: > > Perhaps the problem is that you haven't effectively explained why the > > suggestions you've been given aren't useful. > As if that wasn't clear from the onset. It was to me. Basically, he > was being told, "Change the policy of some big firm you are a little > customer to, because Wikipedia isn't going to change its policy." I have seen no sign from him that he has even attempted this. > > > It is better for me to quit wikipedia and you are to blame. > > I disagree with that, even though you weren't talking to me. Keep in > > mind that you can get more done by being nice than by offending the very > > people you're asking for help. > Maybe being nice is also better than offending the very people you are > supposed to be helping. I found David's posts at least as offending as > Waerth's reaction to them. I was attempting to explain why it was probably happening, and why open proxies are often open sewers. I'm sorry you find that so offensive. Perhaps you could explain in more detail, off-list if appropriate. - d. From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Tue Feb 15 20:51:46 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:51:46 +1100 Subject: >>: Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <42122DB5.6070408@tiscali.co.uk> References: <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> <6faf39c9050215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> <20050215155231.GO21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42122367.9080708@vankalken.net> <42122DB5.6070408@tiscali.co.uk> Message-ID: <20050215205146.GR21722@thingy.apana.org.au> sannse (sannse at tiscali.co.uk) [050216 04:13]: > I don't know what the solution is, except for ja. being asked to change > their policy here. I don't see why the blocking system cannot be told > to ignore this particular set (although I don't know the technicalities > of course). Note that these blocks are *not* in response to vandalism - > proxies are blocked automatically even if no bad edits have come from > that address. Ah, that bit I didn't know about. I understand en: used to do this but stopped when proxy owners complained. > Waerth is an excellent contributor, active in foundation > issues as well as local issues, it's a real shame to see him distressed > by this problem. He also left an abusive note on my en: talk page. Apparently he considers me personally responsible for the policy on ja:. I'm not inclined to attempt rational explanation with the abusive. - d. From andreengels at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 22:04:05 2005 From: andreengels at gmail.com (Andre Engels) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 23:04:05 +0100 Subject: >>: Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <20050215205146.GR21722@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <6faf39c9050215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> <20050215155231.GO21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42122367.9080708@vankalken.net> <42122DB5.6070408@tiscali.co.uk> <20050215205146.GR21722@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <6faf39c90502151404128dcebb@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:51:46 +1100, David Gerard wrote: > sannse (sannse at tiscali.co.uk) [050216 04:13]: > > Waerth is an excellent contributor, active in foundation > > issues as well as local issues, it's a real shame to see him distressed > > by this problem. > > He also left an abusive note on my en: talk page. Apparently he considers > me personally responsible for the policy on ja:. I'm not inclined to > attempt rational explanation with the abusive. He got blocked. He complained. He got unblocked and got blocked again. He complained again. He got unblocked again. He got blocked again. He complained at this list. No reaction. He complained and got unblocked and got blocked and complained and got unblocked and complained and.... And then you come and you tell him it's all his own fault for not having told some big corporation that they did wrong. I have become abusive over less than that. Andre Engels From aphaia at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 23:48:38 2005 From: aphaia at gmail.com (Aphaia) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:48:38 +0900 Subject: >>: Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <6faf39c90502151404128dcebb@mail.gmail.com> References: <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> <20050215155231.GO21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42122367.9080708@vankalken.net> <42122DB5.6070408@tiscali.co.uk> <20050215205146.GR21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <6faf39c90502151404128dcebb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <35be2a7105021515487c713241@mail.gmail.com> Hi, all, I am sorry Waerth has been frustrated specially his continuously blocking on Japanese Wikipedia. And it is a shame Japanese Wikipedia community hasn't react his complaint rapidly. Some reactions were occured; his message in English was translated into Japanese soon after, I responded him as a current Embassy member of Japanese projects, though I am now quitting my activities on Japanese Wikipedia because of sexual harassment (not within the site but in a forum where many bad people enjoy malicious gosshiping. Even sysops participants are this gossiping, criticize and personal attack which will be archived - but it is a bit digression in this thread). And some Wikipedians came to #wikimedia presumably for discussing this matter with Waerth and others. Those reactions were very clumsy and awkward but I hope it is the beginning of improvement, not their last attempt. But I have to point out Japanese Wikipedia lack administrative issues in general. I assume no one will join the discussion on this matter except some users. We can't change their attitude instantly. So I ask Walter to be patient as much as possible for him. A dormant project like Japanese Wikipedia can't react to things if they are so of urgent and importance. I am sorry bad atmosphere on this thread. Honestly I am still thinking it would be better for Walter to mail his complaint to his ISP, even if it is clear for him they will ignore him. I think still it is better and necessary for us. Then after he can complaint to Ja policy again. He said it would be useless, but I think, if he once tries and be ignored, we would have different impression and reaction. And at last, I am very sorry none of the member of this list and Japanese Wikipedia has replied Waerth neither in the list nor on the Wikipedia. -- Aphaea@*.wikipedia.org email: Aphaia @ gmail (dot) com From rich_holton at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 02:27:37 2005 From: rich_holton at yahoo.com (Rich Holton) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:27:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: >>: Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <35be2a7105021515487c713241@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050216022737.41307.qmail@web60308.mail.yahoo.com> Could we perhaps come up with some temporary work-arounds for Waerth until something more can be done? For instance, would one of the anonymizer services help? If he went through one of those, would he still show up as a open proxy? Are anonymized IP's accepted if there is no vandalism? Also, don't we allow signed-in users access even from a banned IP? Couldn't something like this be implemented? Finally, perhaps a letter from the Wikimedia Foundation to the open proxy provider would carry more weight than one from a single user. Rich Holton (en.wikipedia:User:Rholton) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From anthere9 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 07:26:10 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:26:10 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: And blocked again References: <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> <6faf39c9050215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> <20050215155231.GO21722@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <4212F592.5030506@yahoo.com> David Gerard a ?crit: > Walter van Kalken (walter at vankalken.net) [050216 02:09]: > >>David Gerard wrote: > > >>>If the ISP in question really is running an open proxy server, then Walter >>>needs to bring it to their attention that this is leaving an abuse-machine >>>wide open, just as if it were an open email relay being used by spammers. >> > >>This is not my responsibility. Wikipedia is an open project and it >>should be open for anyone. > > > > Unfortunately, open proxies in this manner constitute a public problem on > the Internet. Wikipedia blocks them on sight because they are primarily > used for abuse. > > If you HAVE to use that proxy if you want to use that ISP, at this stage > it's up to you to get them to run their systems competently. > > > - d. Excuse me ? I do not think such comments are very helpful. We know the power of users of internet lines in front of their isps, it is non existent, we should not expect Waerth to be able to fix this anytime soon. On the other hand, WE, as an international project, insist on being open to everyone editing. If we claim to be open, we need to just be, regardless of the inconveniences. In 4 years, we have shown that security could be ensured by a good community, in a much more efficient and positive way that any barrier. Giving up using community strength to fight vandals and replacing it by physical barriers, is somehow just giving up the concept which made our success. Till now, we have used human strength. And it works. Why should Ja fail to go on using human strength ? I do not think japanese editors should block ips preemptively, to protect themselves, just in case there might be some abuse, and consequently block good editors. It is very very very wrong. From anthere9 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 07:45:12 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:45:12 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: >>: Re: And blocked again References: <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> <20050215155231.GO21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42122367.9080708@vankalken.net> <42122DB5.6070408@tiscali.co.uk> <20050215205146.GR21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <6faf39c90502151404128dcebb@mail.gmail.com> <35be2a7105021515487c713241@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4212FA08.3080508@yahoo.com> In any cases Aphaia, thanks a lot for your trying to help and being a confort for Waerth. It is great you can help communication with japanese editors. Especially after your recent problems over there. Ja is a quite faraway community and it is very hard for any of us to understand how things are going on there and how we could discuss all this with editors. Do you have suggestions ? Ant Aphaia a ?crit: > Hi, all, > > I am sorry Waerth has been frustrated specially his continuously > blocking on Japanese Wikipedia. > > And it is a shame Japanese Wikipedia community hasn't react his > complaint rapidly. Some reactions were occured; his message in English > was translated into Japanese soon after, I responded him as a current > Embassy member of Japanese projects, though I am now quitting my > activities on Japanese Wikipedia because of sexual harassment (not > within the site but in a forum where many bad people enjoy malicious > gosshiping. Even sysops participants are this gossiping, criticize and > personal attack which will be archived - but it is a bit digression in > this thread). And some Wikipedians came to #wikimedia presumably for > discussing this matter with Waerth and others. Those reactions were > very clumsy and awkward but I hope it is the beginning of improvement, > not their last attempt. > > But I have to point out Japanese Wikipedia lack administrative issues > in general. I assume no one will join the discussion on this matter > except some users. We can't change their attitude instantly. So I ask > Walter to be patient as much as possible for him. A dormant project > like Japanese Wikipedia can't react to things if they are so of urgent > and importance. > > I am sorry bad atmosphere on this thread. Honestly I am still thinking > it would be better > for Walter to mail his complaint to his ISP, even if it is clear for > him they will ignore him. > I think still it is better and necessary for us. Then after he can > complaint to Ja policy again. > He said it would be useless, but I think, if he once tries and be > ignored, we would have > different impression and reaction. > > And at last, I am very sorry none of the member of this list and > Japanese Wikipedia has replied Waerth neither in the list nor on the > Wikipedia. > From tietew-wikipedia at tietew.net Wed Feb 16 08:51:44 2005 From: tietew-wikipedia at tietew.net (Tietew) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:51:44 +0900 Subject: [Foundation-l] Blocking on Japan In-Reply-To: <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> References: <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <20050216175141.20DC.TIETEW-WIKIPEDIA@tietew.net> I stopped proxyblockbot temporarily. At least, until proper blocking policy of open proxies is settled, I do not restart it. In past, most of wikimedia projects had blocked open proxies automatically using MediaWiki feature. cf. [[User:Proxy blocker]] I don't know why and when the feature is disabled. Could anyone explain or show a pointer for discussion about it? --[ Tietew ]------------------------------------------------------- Mail: tietew at tietew.net / tietew at raug.net Web : http://www.tietew.net/ (Tietew Windows Lab.) PGP fingerprint: 26CB 71BB B595 09C4 0153 81C4 773C 963A D51B 8CAA From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Wed Feb 16 13:37:30 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 00:37:30 +1100 Subject: >>: Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <20050216022737.41307.qmail@web60308.mail.yahoo.com> References: <35be2a7105021515487c713241@mail.gmail.com> <20050216022737.41307.qmail@web60308.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050216133730.GB25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Rich Holton (rich_holton at yahoo.com) [050216 13:27]: > Also, don't we allow signed-in users access even from a banned IP? > Couldn't something like this be implemented? MediaWiki bug 550. It appears to be a generally supported idea, so probably the best move now is for someone to write the code! - d. From andreengels at gmail.com Wed Feb 16 14:46:56 2005 From: andreengels at gmail.com (Andre Engels) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 15:46:56 +0100 Subject: >>: Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <35be2a7105021515487c713241@mail.gmail.com> References: <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> <20050215155231.GO21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42122367.9080708@vankalken.net> <42122DB5.6070408@tiscali.co.uk> <20050215205146.GR21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <6faf39c90502151404128dcebb@mail.gmail.com> <35be2a7105021515487c713241@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6faf39c9050216064637bc8ff@mail.gmail.com> Aphaia: > But I have to point out Japanese Wikipedia lack administrative issues > in general. I assume no one will join the discussion on this matter > except some users. We can't change their attitude instantly. So I ask > Walter to be patient as much as possible for him. A dormant project > like Japanese Wikipedia can't react to things if they are so of urgent > and importance. I think you made a bad choice of words there. I would not want to call such a succesful project as the Japanese wp (according to the statistics having over 100 major contributors and 4000 edits a day) 'dormant' in any way. Still, I do understand that there is a problem here, and I hope you can solve it. It might be a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy too - if you have only a few administrators, they will be considered important and have a lot of work. If you have more of them, that will be much less the case. Andre Engels From jellings at gmail.com Wed Feb 16 15:02:24 2005 From: jellings at gmail.com (jellings) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:02:24 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Import question Message-ID: <1e37a63d0502160702457e9efc@mail.gmail.com> Hi Sorry in advance if this is the wrong list to post this to. I would like to know about importing csv files into an existing wiki. I have tried to find the documentation for doing so but have not had much luck. If anyone could point me in the right direction I would appreciate it. Thanks in advance. -- john From jwales at wikia.com Wed Feb 16 15:06:32 2005 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:06:32 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] On the blocking of anonymous proxies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050216150632.GA14422@wikia.com> Charles Podles wrote: > An anonymous user posted the following on > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Blocking_policy : > > == Blocking anonymizer's proxies is unconstitutional == > > *'''The right to anonymous free speech is protected by the 1st > amendment of the US constitution.''' "Congress shall make no law..." Unless I missed something, we still aren't Congress. > *'''Anonymity--the ability to conceal one's identity while > communicating--enables the expression of political ideas and the > practice of religious belief without fear of intimidation or public > retaliation.''' This is certainly true enough, and something that we ought to respect as much as we feasibly can. > I kindly request Wikipedia editors to re-open the debate about the > right of the people to contribute to Wikipedia while protecting their > rights to free speech, and to curb sysop powers to utilize blocking > policies. That's a reasonable request. Please let's not get lost in a very confused constitutional claim, though. When I visited the EFF in San Francisco last week, I met with the people working on Tor, their anonymous browsing project. They were (slightly) sympathetic to our concerns and open to ideas. --Jimbo -- "Pianosa is een Italie" - first words of 50,000th article on nl.wikipedia.org From jwales at wikia.com Wed Feb 16 15:09:38 2005 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:09:38 -0800 Subject: >>: Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again In-Reply-To: <20050215205146.GR21722@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> <6faf39c9050215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> <20050215155231.GO21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42122367.9080708@vankalken.net> <42122DB5.6070408@tiscali.co.uk> <20050215205146.GR21722@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <20050216150938.GB14422@wikia.com> David Gerard wrote: > He also left an abusive note on my en: talk page. Apparently he considers > me personally responsible for the policy on ja:. I'm not inclined to > attempt rational explanation with the abusive. I'll vouch for both Waerth and David here. Good people, both of them among my favorites in wikipedia. Waerth was just really frustrated, and David just responded to that. I doubt very much if either of them will be mad for long. :-) From rich_holton at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 15:51:58 2005 From: rich_holton at yahoo.com (Rich Holton) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:51:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Import question In-Reply-To: <1e37a63d0502160702457e9efc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050216155159.67318.qmail@web60307.mail.yahoo.com> --- jellings wrote: > Hi > > Sorry in advance if this is the wrong list to post this to. > > I would like to know about importing csv files into an existing wiki. > > I have tried to find the documentation for doing so but have not had > much luck. > > If anyone could point me in the right direction I would appreciate > it. > > Thanks in advance. > > -- > john John, I've forwarded your question to the wikitech mailing list (). That's probably the best place for this kind of question. However, I'm not sure you've given enough information for a good answer. What are you trying to import? What information is in the CSV fields? -Rich Holton en.wikipedia:User:Rholton __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From brion at pobox.com Wed Feb 16 18:09:37 2005 From: brion at pobox.com (Brion Vibber) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:09:37 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Blocking on Japan In-Reply-To: <20050216175141.20DC.TIETEW-WIKIPEDIA@tietew.net> References: <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <20050216175141.20DC.TIETEW-WIKIPEDIA@tietew.net> Message-ID: <42138C61.20603@pobox.com> Tietew wrote: > In past, most of wikimedia projects had blocked open proxies > automatically using MediaWiki feature. > cf. [[User:Proxy blocker]] > > I don't know why and when the feature is disabled. Could anyone > explain or show a pointer for discussion about it? When we do port scans on thousands of hosts a day, other peoples' internet providers complain to our hosting provider, and we risk being shut down. -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 253 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20050216/27027ab7/attachment-0001.pgp From anthere9 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 18:07:49 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:07:49 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Import question References: <1e37a63d0502160702457e9efc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42138BF5.9020406@yahoo.com> Hi I suggest another list : wikitech-l at wikimedia.org Ant jellings a ?crit: > Hi > > Sorry in advance if this is the wrong list to post this to. > > I would like to know about importing csv files into an existing wiki. > I have tried to find the documentation for doing so but have not had > much luck. > > If anyone could point me in the right direction I would appreciate it. > > Thanks in advance. > From rowan.collins at gmail.com Wed Feb 16 18:51:45 2005 From: rowan.collins at gmail.com (Rowan Collins) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:51:45 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Import question In-Reply-To: <42138BF5.9020406@yahoo.com> References: <1e37a63d0502160702457e9efc@mail.gmail.com> <42138BF5.9020406@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9f02ca4c0502161051c0805da@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:07:49 +0100, Anthere wrote: > I suggest another list : wikitech-l at wikimedia.org Actually, mediawiki-l would be an even better match (intended for all the MediaWiki users out there, as opposed to the core MediaWiki and Wikimedia developers and maintainers); but since Rich has forwarded the message already, wikitech-l's good enough. -- Rowan Collins BSc [IMSoP] From jellings at gmail.com Wed Feb 16 19:37:56 2005 From: jellings at gmail.com (jellings) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:37:56 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Import question In-Reply-To: <20050216155159.67318.qmail@web60307.mail.yahoo.com> References: <1e37a63d0502160702457e9efc@mail.gmail.com> <20050216155159.67318.qmail@web60307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1e37a63d050216113718bcf0c3@mail.gmail.com> I have a text file of dictionary terms - word, definition plus another file of word, synonyms - since I already have it in this format it would be a lot easier to import it. I CAN reformat the file, but to enter it manually would take too long (there are over 20,000 entries in the dictionary file alone, more in the synonyms). I do not have a complete understanding of the database schema so the answer may be obvious to others; any insight would be helpful. I will also subscribe to the other list. Thanks again. On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:51:58 -0800 (PST), Rich Holton wrote: > > --- jellings wrote: > > > Hi > > > > Sorry in advance if this is the wrong list to post this to. > > > > I would like to know about importing csv files into an existing wiki. > > > > I have tried to find the documentation for doing so but have not had > > much luck. > > > > If anyone could point me in the right direction I would appreciate > > it. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > -- > > john > > John, > > I've forwarded your question to the wikitech mailing list > (). That's probably the best place for this > kind of question. > > However, I'm not sure you've given enough information for a good > answer. What are you trying to import? What information is in the CSV > fields? > > -Rich Holton > en.wikipedia:User:Rholton > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > -- john From beesley at gmail.com Wed Feb 16 20:24:30 2005 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:24:30 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimania Call for Papers and Programme planning Message-ID: <8b722b8005021612245aace632@mail.gmail.com> A meeting to discuss the programme for Wikimania, Wikimedia's conference in August, will take place on at 20:00 (UTC) Friday 18 February in #wikimania on IRC. Anyone interested in discussing the programme, and especially working on the call for papers, is encouraged to come to the meeting. Please see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania:Call_for_papers and http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania:Programme for details. Angela. From walter at vankalken.net Wed Feb 16 21:47:50 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 04:47:50 +0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Apology to David Gerard and explanation In-Reply-To: <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <42103163.2000706@vankalken.net> <42103DEC.1010302@cox.net> <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> <6faf39c9 050215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org .au> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> <20050215155231.GO21722@thingy.apana. org.au> <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <4213BF86.1060505@vankalken.net> For now I want to apologize to David Gerard. I am under a lot of stress. And since I felt that I had given the reason for me not to contact my provider nor to change it. Plus external reasons nothing to do with wikipedia I just blew up. I had no right to address him with the words I did. I am sorry for making an ass out of myself. I still stay with the words that in Thailand thinks work totally different from the west (I would say most of this part of Asia). Basicaly if you life over here and want to survive like I am doing forget about everything you learned in the west and start over. There is no such thing as consumerrights here and this really is the best deal. I pay 1.350 baht a month for a 2.5 mbps/256 kbps unlimited connection. A friend of mine pays 2.099 baht for a 256/128 kbps 100 hrs a month connection. I also get a 20% duscount on both my mobile and housephonebills as they are the same company, Thailands second biggest phone company (formerly Telecom Asia now True). The only bad thing about the deal is I cannot break contract in the first 2 years (and they do not rise the price) because then I have to pay 6000 baht. For comparison 6.000 baht is almost what I spend in a month on food. For me that is a lot of money, as I am earning Thai wages, not Western expatriate wages. With kind regards, Walter van Kalken From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Wed Feb 16 21:52:26 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 08:52:26 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Apology to David Gerard and explanation In-Reply-To: <4213BF86.1060505@vankalken.net> References: <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <4210C526.8060204@vankalken.net> <6faf39c9050215063326e20fde@mail.gmail.com> <20050215143549.GN21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121065.6050702@vankalken.net> <20050215155231.GO21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <4213BF86.1060505@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <20050216215226.GI25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Walter van Kalken (walter at vankalken.net) [050217 08:48]: > For now I want to apologize to David Gerard. I am under a lot of stress. > And since I felt that I had given the reason for me not to contact my > provider nor to change it. Plus external reasons nothing to do with > wikipedia I just blew up. I had no right to address him with the words I > did. I am sorry for making an ass out of myself. No prob. Sorry for being so terse. - d. From aphaia at gmail.com Thu Feb 17 00:32:24 2005 From: aphaia at gmail.com (Aphaia) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:32:24 +0900 Subject: [Foundation-l] Blocking on Japan In-Reply-To: <20050216175141.20DC.TIETEW-WIKIPEDIA@tietew.net> References: <421040C1.5060504@vankalken.net> <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <20050216175141.20DC.TIETEW-WIKIPEDIA@tietew.net> Message-ID: <35be2a7105021616323627107e@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:51:44 +0900, Tietew wrote: > I stopped proxyblockbot temporarily. > At least, until proper blocking policy of open proxies is > settled, I do not restart it. I am glad on your decision. I appliciate you on that. I know no discussion arose on this issues and guess it was hard for you to make a decision solely, specially it is not your personal idea but based on the community approval in silence and perhaps expectation. Again, thank you. ???????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????? I hope this issue will gather more interest on JA WP and the discussion will go further. ???????????????????????? ???????????????? -- Aphaea@*.wikipedia.org email: Aphaia @ gmail (dot) com From aphaia at gmail.com Thu Feb 17 00:43:42 2005 From: aphaia at gmail.com (Aphaia) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:43:42 +0900 Subject: Fwd: For improvement of JA situation (Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again) In-Reply-To: <35be2a71050216162545ca58d0@mail.gmail.com> References: <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <42121D37.4090308@vankalken.net> <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42122367.9080708@vankalken.net> <42122DB5.6070408@tiscali.co.uk> <20050215205146.GR21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <6faf39c90502151404128dcebb@mail.gmail.com> <35be2a7105021515487c713241@mail.gmail.com> <6faf39c9050216064637bc8ff@mail.gmail.com> <35be2a71050216162545ca58d0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <35be2a71050216164375d286f8@mail.gmail.com> Sorry, Andre, you'll see it twice. I forgot to include the address of the list ... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Aphaia Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:25:47 +0900 Subject: For improvement of JA situation (Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again) To: Andre Engels On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 15:46:56 +0100, Andre Engels wrote: > Aphaia: > > But I have to point out Japanese Wikipedia lack administrative issues > > in general. ...[omitted by the author herself] A dormant project > > like Japanese Wikipedia can't react to things if they are so of urgent > > and importance. > > I think you made a bad choice of words there. I would not want to call > such a succesful project as the Japanese wp (according to the > statistics having over 100 major contributors and 4000 edits a day) > 'dormant' in any way. Thank you for your comment, you let me notice my another wrong wording: I would have liked to say in the first sentence of your quotation, "Ja Wikipedia lacks 'an interest in' administrative issues..." I admit it is very active project, but I doubt its activities have consciousness enough appropriate to keep such a huge project and community. I fear if it is an unsustainable growth. The balance of increase of content and maintenance there might be kept nowadays. So I don't think I have to change the word dormant: a sleeping person could move very actively in a dream but we don't think him awake. As for size, according to a daily and monthly survey of a Wikipedian (User:Mintlef, http://wikipedia.g.hatena.ne.jp/mintleaf/), JA WP has 100 major registered contributors and probably a same number of or larger number of anonymous contributors; It is another sign of lack of intentionally avoiding involvement and engagement in my opinion. And this enormous anonymity make JA issues harder, probably. So here the first question is what we can do motivate those anonyms to register themselves to the project. /##To make a better and comfortable project, perhaps - without personal attacks but feeling of love and approval... but how? I attempted some of expressions of approval and some people found them nice, but right now they are alike of petals in the ocean.) > Still, I do understand that there is a problem > here, and I hope you can solve it. It might be a kind of > self-fulfilling prophecy too I appreciate your understanding. But not only understanding, if possible, would I like you to give us a help and assistance? I expect it wouldn't be helpful not only JA but also other projects potentially. Before diving into the topic, I would like you to remark a fact I am not there a sysadmin. I thought JA WP needed more helper and requested sysopship twice. My requests were rejected with 65-72% approvals [JA WP holds 75% criteria for promotion]. In my view some of JA users are afraid I am a sort of authoritarians, with an iron rod, and/or suspect I don't shere with them the view what Wikipedia should be. Perhaps at the latter point they might be correct, because I can't assume what kind of view they have (some of you remember the ascii art I showed). As for the former point, I would like not to comment here; it is more suitable to talk in other places, not here on foundation-l. But please remind my opinion belongs only to me as an individual and perhaps it is not a typical view of JA Wikipedians. In my view the core issue of JA WP issues are evasive attitude of users both registered and anonymous. It causes lack of interest on administration and maintenance, avoidance of involvement and engagement, suppression of good interaction on responsibility. And Japanese project is in fact younger than other projects and less experienced, or precisely, experiences what no other project has known. Its increasing rate can be compared only to a few other projects and a half of edits have been done anonymously. With language barriers the experiences on the other projects and wisdom are hardly available there on JA WP. I dare say, JA WP will be someday unsustainable, unless we began right now to make appropriate actions. I assume, one of reasons some of JA people tend to use external forums instead of Village Pump or talk page: fond of anonymity and avoidance of responsibility under a stably using registered name. One day I opposed a sysop say she would post her question not to VP but to a certain forum there I was harassed, but she replied the latter would give her quicker responses. And I admit the fact might be so, but such de facto approval could cause a potential fork and make VP and the community deserted. In my opinion we have not rely on anonymous talk to make our decision, though those people who are for anonymity might have a different opinion. If such additional forum should be discussed to improve the situation, we could later be back to this point.) In my view now regretfully JA WP lacks appropriate governance in proportion to its size. It is one of most active project among us. But perhaps one of most assistance needed ones, I presume. I take this lack of interest and engagement very serious. It is not only a potential hazard on JA WP, but could be on other where people are evasive in general. I heard on some small Wikipedias good editors avoid being nominated as sysop candidate, since they thought they couldn't - here we notice not only lack of involvement but lack of self-esteem. In my opinion the JA WP issues are potentially shared by such other projects and we should seek their resolutions. So , as Andre pointed out, the task of administrators are there visibly harder than on other projects I have ever involved since 2004 in my view. And there among the administrators again the lack of involvement arises. Recently an user requested for adminship but he said clearly he has no intent to use his privileges positively. I objected his promotion because in my view though he is a good editor but not an active contributors and showed clearly not to be an active administrators. But an admin, who is active contributors but seldom use his privileges in my view, supported him with words "it is not a problem, because we have already admins who don't use their privileges). In my view on JA WP such a strange idea has spread for a while - it has become not merely functions to serve as a janitor but a title for eminent users. Personally I don't like this idea. In my view administrator are alike as janitors or gardeners fighting with vandals and trolls and keeping the project as clean as possible. It is not a sort of honors, though it is natural for us to feel honored to be supported and trusted by a number of trusted people. So here too, I think, JA needs to be improved to have more admins; if users have a wrong image, it could be a hazard for them to be appointed. And last, the issues of malice and gossips come. I asked once some good editors to let me recommend them to admins but was denied. They feared to be featured, particularly on the forum I mentioned on the above. After my own harassment, I can't say they were too evasive. It is very a horrible experience, indeed. And here would you let me express my applications for those who support me: they made me succeed in gather my strength in spirit again. But I have been fortunate. I have friends out of JA WP and could pour my worries in front of them. But most of Ja users are active only on Ja and would have no support out of their "community". People could rumored it was a pity but wouldn't cast the consolation to the person embarrassed directly. Or, it was my own case, they came to the embarrassed person and said "I am very sorry. I hope you are back. But I can't support you in public. I don't like to be offended as like as you. But you are a strong person, I know. You can bear it. and I like you." It is not a hostility indeed but I don't think I would like to be a part of such a group. So now it seems to me very reasonable many past active users left that project within three months. So we have here to have another improvement, I guess, but at the same time, I feel it is not my own task: the JA community wouldn't be able to notice what is wrong in this situation, and deny to change the situation, in the worst case. If I recall correctly, Erik Moeller suggested the Foundation or the Board would intervene, I think it might be a possible reaction from us. At least now the interested thread use the name of Wikipedia (it is already a trademark), though the Foundation legally has no right to close it, but can demand it not to use the name of Wikipedia or not to behave there is any sort of relation between that external community and our project. And for the community the Foundation has a right to intervene: for example, not to refer to any other external communication ways as if it is under the control of the Foundation nor the project, not accepted as an official part of the project, nor recommended as an active part of the projects: As for the forum I mentioned, in case they can't improve themselves, it would be helpful at least for the community the Board demands to the community not to refer nor recommend it in the project documents, like the guidebook for newbies (now they did). But on this point I think I am too involved and will appreciate opinions of the third parties who aren't regulars there and give a look on the forum concerned. Both other JA users' feedbacks and ones of other projects' participants will be appliciated. -- Aphaea@*.wikipedia.org email: Aphaia @ gmail (dot) com -- Aphaea@*.wikipedia.org email: Aphaia @ gmail (dot) com From gerard.meijssen at gmail.com Thu Feb 17 02:51:48 2005 From: gerard.meijssen at gmail.com (Gerard Meijssen) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 03:51:48 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Proposal for the application for a grant that has to be applied for before the 20th] Message-ID: <421406C4.201@gmail.com> Hoi, I have posted http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IFAP it is an outline for a proposal for a $45.000,- grant. We need to apply before the 20th of this month. Please, do understand that if we apply for this grant, we have to spend money the way we describe. It does not help if you think we should not spend the money. We either do or we do not apply and, that way we do not benefit and neither do the people who benefit most who are incidentally not the people who get paid. This proposal aims to achieve three things: * cooperation with the Open Office org by creating a dictionary integrated into wiktionary for languages they work on. This is a win win situation *a dictionary and translations dictionary that helps translators and students of languages; wiktionary is a many to many dictionary *better functionality for wiktionary that will prevent a lot of double work and removes the need for running bots to share our work. I hope we agree that this is a feasible project and that we can move forward with this proposal. Thanks. GerardM From rich_holton at yahoo.com Thu Feb 17 03:24:06 2005 From: rich_holton at yahoo.com (Rich Holton) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:24:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Import question In-Reply-To: <9f02ca4c0502161051c0805da@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050217032406.28418.qmail@web60303.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rowan Collins wrote: > On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:07:49 +0100, Anthere > wrote: > > I suggest another list : wikitech-l at wikimedia.org > > Actually, mediawiki-l would be an even better match (intended for all > the MediaWiki users out there, as opposed to the core MediaWiki and > Wikimedia developers and maintainers); but since Rich has forwarded > the message already, wikitech-l's good enough. > Thanks, Rowan. I actually was going to direct the question to mediawiki-l, but I noticed that the description there is "MediaWiki announcements and site admin list", which doesn't sound like the right place. But I also know that the actual subject matter is more in line with a general technical support list. Perhaps it would be a good idea to clarify that list's purpose. -Rich __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From erik_moeller at gmx.de Thu Feb 17 07:14:51 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 08:14:51 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikinews Design Contest Open for Submissions Message-ID: <4214446B.9010408@gmx.de> Help us create a unique visual identity for the Wikinews project! http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews_design_contest The Wikinews design contest, which will run until April 17, 2005, consists of two components: * www.wikinews.org multilingual portal * site stylesheets You can also offer prizes for the best designs! If you can't contribute a design, please offer a prize, to increase the incentive to contribute. While the contest is running, please also feel free to edit the existing portal at: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Www.wikinews.org_portal All best, and good luck to all participants, Erik M?ller From erik_moeller at gmx.de Thu Feb 17 08:51:40 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:51:40 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Proposal: Wikimedia Collaboration of the Week Message-ID: <42145B1C.6070802@gmx.de> I have created http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_COTW as a proposal for weekly cross-project, cross-language collaborations. This could include things like help documents, promotion materials, or work on underexposed projects. I'm sure people will come up with lots of cool ideas for this. Besides getting things done, I hope this will strengthen the awareness of Wikimedia as an organization and of Meta as a site. The idea is that thet Wikimedia Collaboration of the Week (WM-COTW) will be featured on the Community Portal or a similar page of many (all?) projects, in many (all?) languages. These should really be big, worthwhile projects. Of course often they will not be completable in a week, but it will drive people to Meta to work on them. Please comment on this proposal or edit it. I would like to take it live soon -- implementing it will be up to the individual wikis. If someone wants to create a nice logo for this, that would be very neat! All best, Erik From andreengels at gmail.com Thu Feb 17 12:58:21 2005 From: andreengels at gmail.com (Andre Engels) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:58:21 +0100 Subject: Fwd: For improvement of JA situation (Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again) In-Reply-To: <6faf39c9050216170675bb7c2d@mail.gmail.com> References: <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <20050215161821.GP21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <42122367.9080708@vankalken.net> <42122DB5.6070408@tiscali.co.uk> <20050215205146.GR21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <6faf39c90502151404128dcebb@mail.gmail.com> <35be2a7105021515487c713241@mail.gmail.com> <6faf39c9050216064637bc8ff@mail.gmail.com> <35be2a71050216162545ca58d0@mail.gmail.com> <6faf39c9050216170675bb7c2d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6faf39c905021704585a50e113@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:25:47 +0900, Aphaia wrote: > > Still, I do understand that there is a problem > > here, and I hope you can solve it. It might be a kind of > > self-fulfilling prophecy too > > I appreciate your understanding. But not only understanding, if > possible, would I > like you to give us a help and assistance? I expect it wouldn't be > helpful not only JA > but also other projects potentially. I am not sure what kind of assistance I can give, given that I do not speak Japanese (well, at least not more than 50 words of it). I did make a check, and found that indeed the Japanese Wikipedia has a remarkably low number of admins. It has about the same number as the Dutch one (ja: 31, nl: 34), even though the Dutch one is about half the size of the Japanese one, and compared to other languages is relatively low. The Polish and Swedish Wikipedias have considerably more admins. I think that to compare to the other languages, the Japanese number could easily be doubled. > Before diving into the topic, I would like you to remark a fact I am > not there a sysadmin. > I thought JA WP needed more helper and requested sysopship twice. My > requests were > rejected with 65-72% approvals [JA WP holds 75% criteria for > promotion]. In my view > some of JA users are afraid I am a sort of authoritarians, with an > iron rod, and/or suspect > I don't shere with them the view what Wikipedia should be. Interesting... On nl: we have had all requests approved upto now, usually with no objections. Andre Engels From notafishz at gmail.com Thu Feb 17 14:52:14 2005 From: notafishz at gmail.com (notafish) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:52:14 +0100 Subject: For improvement of JA situation (Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again) In-Reply-To: <453b6e50502170642258e2a4d@mail.gmail.com> References: <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <42122DB5.6070408@tiscali.co.uk> <20050215205146.GR21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <6faf39c90502151404128dcebb@mail.gmail.com> <35be2a7105021515487c713241@mail.gmail.com> <6faf39c9050216064637bc8ff@mail.gmail.com> <35be2a71050216162545ca58d0@mail.gmail.com> <6faf39c9050216170675bb7c2d@mail.gmail.com> <6faf39c905021704585a50e113@mail.gmail.com> <453b6e50502170642258e2a4d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <453b6e505021706524d69aba9@mail.gmail.com> > I did make a check, and found that indeed the Japanese Wikipedia has > a remarkably low number of admins. It has about the same number as the > Dutch one (ja: 31, nl: 34), even though the Dutch one is about half > the size of the Japanese one, and compared to other languages is > relatively low. The Polish and Swedish Wikipedias have considerably > more admins. I think that to compare to the other languages, the > Japanese number could easily be doubled. > > > Before diving into the topic, I would like you to remark a fact I am > > not there a sysadmin. > > I thought JA WP needed more helper and requested sysopship twice. My > > requests were > > rejected with 65-72% approvals [JA WP holds 75% criteria for > > promotion]. In my view > > some of JA users are afraid I am a sort of authoritarians, with an > > iron rod, and/or suspect > > I don't shere with them the view what Wikipedia should be. Kind of the same problem arose on fr, Admins were considered cream of the cream. I have put in place a demythification process here : *http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Administrateur/Tableau_de_bord_de_l%27administrateur *http://fr.wikipedia.org/Wikip?dia:Administrateur/Processus_de_suppression *http://fr.wikipedia.org/Wikip?dia:Administrateur/Processus_de_blocage *http://fr.wikipedia.org/Wikip?dia:Administrateur/Processus_de_protection (other links can be found at the bottom of the first page) which goal was to de-sacralize the admins job. This has definitely worked on fr to make the admin position clearer and a lot of people who dreaded becoming an admin for fear of being cast into an authoritarian category have expressed interest in becoming admins. (4 in the last two weeks), which helps. I don't know whether this can solve any problems, but it could be a starting point and I am willing to help putting it together for other languages if anyone is interested, providing I am supplied with the appropriate shotscreens. Cheers, Delphine From yann at forget-me.net Thu Feb 17 22:26:01 2005 From: yann at forget-me.net (Yann Forget) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:26:01 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation and the World Summit on Information Society Message-ID: <200502172326.01936.yann@forget-me.net> Hi, I take part to the preliminary session of the World Summut on Information Society (WSIS) [1] in Geneva, from February 17th to 25th. There are already a lot of people supporting our ideas (sharing knowledge and free content) who take part in the WSIS. These people do lobbying for these ideas to members states delegates for adopting a resolution in the WSIS. So these ideas get also promoted among people taking part in the process. I propose that Wikimedia Foundation gets involved with the WSIS: * The foundation should start the process to get official recognition from WSIS. * The foundation should look for financial support to send delegate(s) to Tunis. * Does the foundation have a proposition or a recommendation to the WSIS ? Comments and propositions: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/World_Summit_on_Information_Society Regards, Yann [1] http://www.itu.int/wsis/preparatory2/pc2/index.html From walter at vankalken.net Thu Feb 17 23:54:09 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 06:54:09 +0700 Subject: For improvement of JA situation (Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again) In-Reply-To: <453b6e505021706524d69aba9@mail.gmail.com> References: <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <42122DB5.6070408@tiscali.co.uk > <20050215205146.GR21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <6faf39c90502151404128dcebb@ mail.gmail.com> <35be2a7105021515487c713241@mail.gmail.com> <6faf39c9050216 064637bc8ff@mail.gmail.com> <35be2a71050216162545ca58d0@mail.gmail.com> <6f af39c9050216170675bb7c2d@mail.gmail.com> <6faf39c905021704585a50e113@mail.g mail.com> <453b6e50502170642258e2a4d@mail.gmail.com> <453b6e505021706524d69 aba9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42152EA1.5010607@vankalken.net> >Kind of the same problem arose on fr, Admins were considered cream of >the cream. I have put in place a demythification process here : >*http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Administrateur/Tableau_de_bord_de_l%27administrateur >*http://fr.wikipedia.org/Wikip?dia:Administrateur/Processus_de_suppression >*http://fr.wikipedia.org/Wikip?dia:Administrateur/Processus_de_blocage >*http://fr.wikipedia.org/Wikip?dia:Administrateur/Processus_de_protection >(other links can be found at the bottom of the first page) >which goal was to de-sacralize the admins job. This has definitely >worked on fr to make the admin position clearer and a lot of people >who dreaded becoming an admin for fear of being cast into an >authoritarian category have expressed interest in becoming admins. (4 >in the last two weeks), which helps. > >I don't know whether this can solve any problems, but it could be a >starting point and I am willing to help putting it together for other >languages if anyone is interested, providing I am supplied with the >appropriate shotscreens. > > > I kind of did the same on nl: We had only 14 sysops or so. I then went on a drive to get more and voila we have 34 now. We also had the problem that people though being a sysop is som kinf of authoritive thing but I was able with the help of others to debunk that. We got a couple of more applications now for adminship. So our total number will rise even more! I have offered Britty to go around all Japanese users and ask them to become admin. Maybe we should co-ordinate an effort by first writing a tex in Japanese oon demystifying the adminship and explain to people why jawp needs more and then go to everybody's user talkpage we think is usefull and ask them personally to apply for adminship??? Same like I did on nl:. Walter van Kalken Walter van Kalken From robin.shannon at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 02:47:37 2005 From: robin.shannon at gmail.com (Robin Shannon) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:47:37 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Proposal for the application for a grant that has to be applied for before the 20th] In-Reply-To: <421406C4.201@gmail.com> References: <421406C4.201@gmail.com> Message-ID: <623d7338050217184718651db4@mail.gmail.com> Fucking brilliant idea, but im not quite sure about the ideas to spend the money. Exactly what is needed on the software front that isnt currently provided by wikimedia? paz y amor, [[User:The bellman]] On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 03:51:48 +0100, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > Hoi, > > I have posted http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IFAP it is an outline for a > proposal for a $45.000,- grant. We need to apply before the 20th of this > month. Please, do understand that if we apply for this grant, we have to > spend money the way we describe. It does not help if you think we should > not spend the money. We either do or we do not apply and, that way we do > not benefit and neither do the people who benefit most who are > incidentally not the people who get paid. > > This proposal aims to achieve three things: > * cooperation with the Open Office org by creating a dictionary > integrated into wiktionary for languages they work on. This is a win win > situation > *a dictionary and translations dictionary that helps translators and > students of languages; wiktionary is a many to many dictionary > *better functionality for wiktionary that will prevent a lot of double > work and removes the need for running bots to share our work. > > I hope we agree that this is a feasible project and that we can move > forward with this proposal. > > Thanks. > GerardM > > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > -- hit me: robin.shannon.id.au jab me: saudade at jabber.zim.net.au This work is licensed under the Creative Commons Recombo Plus License. To view a copy of this license, visit http://creativecommons.org/licenses/sampling+/1.0/ From erik_moeller at gmx.de Fri Feb 18 06:33:11 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 07:33:11 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Intent to launch pt., pl., ro. Wikinews; further procedure Message-ID: <42158C27.4080805@gmx.de> As per the procedure on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews/Start_a_new_edition I'd like to launch three new editions later today or tomorrow: Portuguese, Polish, and Romanian. For Portuguese, I count Carlosar as a valid vote, because he has made 3000+ edits on the English Wikinews, and he is a native speaker. For future editions, I'd also like to suggest changing the language procedure in the following way: The "activity on existing Wikimedia projects" requirement can be dropped if a few support pages (FAQ, Mission Statement, etc.) are created on Meta for the project to be launched. These can be translations or original creations. Such an effort indicates a genuine interest in working on a Wikinews edition in a language. It also reduces the dependency of new projects on existing ones -- we already know that many key people working on Wikinews have not done substantial work on Wikipedia or other Wikimedia projects. There would still be a requirement of at least 5 signatures, so it's not just one person playing an overarching role. If this works out, perhaps we can substitute one procedure for another; I prefer the translation procedure, because it also makes sure that certain pages are in place before the wiki is set up (a problem on some new editions which were essentially blank for several days). I'd like to credit the Memory Alpha wiki for this procedure, which has successfully used it for setting up new languages. Regards, Erik From anthere9 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 06:58:17 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 07:58:17 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Intent to launch pt., pl., ro. Wikinews; further procedure References: <42158C27.4080805@gmx.de> Message-ID: <42159209.2070007@yahoo.com> No, please keep it to the procedure we agreed upon just a couple of days ago. When I suggested that we added this requirement of "activity", there were two reasons * activity shows interest, so avoid missed launches such as the french wikinews one * past activity of at least 2 editors on a wikipedia (for example) indicates that at least 2 editors are aware of our basic principles and in particular NPOV requirement. Again, the is a security measure. If 5 people, not even one oldby on one of our project, decide to launch a wikinews with no experience at all, there is rather high risk that some of our principles are not respected; and since it is not in a language we necessarily manage, it might go on for a long time. You mentionned yourself that wikinews was a tricky project, with rather serious liability issues. I agree with this. And this is just as much a reason to avoid launching by people who just happened to visit a couple of days sooner and found the concept great. We need at least 2 experienced people. Anthere Erik Moeller a ?crit: > As per the procedure on > > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews/Start_a_new_edition > > I'd like to launch three new editions later today or tomorrow: > Portuguese, Polish, and Romanian. For Portuguese, I count Carlosar as a > valid vote, because he has made 3000+ edits on the English Wikinews, and > he is a native speaker. > > For future editions, I'd also like to suggest changing the language > procedure in the following way: > > The "activity on existing Wikimedia projects" requirement can be > dropped if a few support pages (FAQ, Mission Statement, etc.) are > created on Meta for the project to be launched. These can be > translations or original creations. > > Such an effort indicates a genuine interest in working on a Wikinews > edition in a language. It also reduces the dependency of new projects on > existing ones -- we already know that many key people working on > Wikinews have not done substantial work on Wikipedia or other Wikimedia > projects. There would still be a requirement of at least 5 signatures, > so it's not just one person playing an overarching role. > > If this works out, perhaps we can substitute one procedure for another; > I prefer the translation procedure, because it also makes sure that > certain pages are in place before the wiki is set up (a problem on some > new editions which were essentially blank for several days). > > I'd like to credit the Memory Alpha wiki for this procedure, which has > successfully used it for setting up new languages. > > Regards, > > Erik From erik_moeller at gmx.de Fri Feb 18 07:34:18 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 08:34:18 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Intent to launch pt., pl., ro. Wikinews; further procedure In-Reply-To: <42159209.2070007@yahoo.com> References: <42158C27.4080805@gmx.de> <42159209.2070007@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42159A7A.5050603@gmx.de> Anthere- > > * activity shows interest, so avoid missed launches such as the french > wikinews one Actually, it doesn't. French Wikinews would have passed the edit count requirements (haven't checked user duration); as you yourself said, Greudin is a very active user on fr.wikipedia and has pledged support for the French Wikinews, yet he has only made a handful of edits there. Translating/creating policies seems to be a much better test of actual interest in doing work. Once you do that, that shows a commitment to the project. > > * past activity of at least 2 editors on a wikipedia (for example) > indicates that at least 2 editors are aware of our basic principles > and in particular NPOV requirement. What better test could there be for people understanding a policy like NPOV than requiring them to translate it? > Again, the is a security measure. If 5 people, not even one oldby on > one of our project, decide to launch a wikinews with no experience at > all, there is rather high risk that some of our principles are not > respected; I don't see it that way. Just because someone has been on Wikipedia for months doesn't mean that they respect policies at all. Quantity is not quality, and measuring quality is almost impossible while keeping the process scalable and fair. One could even argue that malicious trolls or otherwise harmful users who know how to manipulate policies in their interest are more likely to come from our existing user base. In fact, Wikinews will especially attract people who are fed up with Wikipedia and want to work on another wiki. > and since it is not in a language we necessarily manage, it might go > on for a long time. This is more likely if key policies like NPOV are *not* translated. If we can agree on which parts of our policies are not negotiable, we can make sure that they are in place. One of these policies can even include instructions on what to do if your wiki doesn't follow the Wikimedia spirit (contact stewards etc.). Future projects don't necessarily match our current userbase. To tie the process for creating new language editions directly to that userbase seems needlessly restrictive. Building a small community on Meta and writing key pages before launching the project is also simply good planning -- exactly the kind of thing that could have helped to prevent the current fr.wikinews.org situation, much more so than algorithmic requirements whose actual predictive value is very low, as that experience has shown. Regards, Erik From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Fri Feb 18 08:55:11 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:55:11 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Intent to launch pt., pl., ro. Wikinews; further procedure In-Reply-To: <42158C27.4080805@gmx.de> References: <42158C27.4080805@gmx.de> Message-ID: <4215AD6F.8050802@laposte.net> > For future editions, I'd also like to suggest changing the language > procedure in the following way: > > The "activity on existing Wikimedia projects" requirement can be > dropped if a few support pages (FAQ, Mission Statement, etc.) are > created on Meta for the project to be launched. These can be > translations or original creations. As Ant, i support the activity requirement. The reason is that it's better imo to "know" people, how they behave for instance, who intend to launch a wikinews. If you let a total "stranger" start a new language edition, you open doors to many abuses - translating NPOV rules & such is NOT synonym with agreeing to them. And how can you check the translation is correct unless you speak the language? :) > Regards, > > Erik Nicolas From erik_moeller at gmx.de Fri Feb 18 10:08:32 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:08:32 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Intent to launch pt., pl., ro. Wikinews; further procedure In-Reply-To: <4215AD6F.8050802@laposte.net> References: <42158C27.4080805@gmx.de> <4215AD6F.8050802@laposte.net> Message-ID: <4215BEA0.5050400@gmx.de> Nicolas Weeger- > And how can you check the > translation is correct unless you speak the language? :) How do I know the "regular" is not actually a troll without speaking the language? How do I know that the only reason he wants to start a Wikinews isn't that he hates Wikipedia after having spent several months there? How do I know his intentions are good? You could require one of the people to be a sysop, but that seems like an onerous requirement. An algorithmic contribution check is *not* a quality check. Let's be realistic here. What kind of person would intentionally manipulate policies and get away with it under the auspices of other users: a random person who's never been involved in our projects, or someone who is intimately familiar with them? Furthermore, remember that there would still be a requirement of *multiple users* participating. How likely is it that a malicious person would get away with deliberately falsely translating something like NPOV when working with 4 others? And let's not forget about http://usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?AssumeGoodFaith - the very idea of a wiki is to be open and welcoming to newcomers, rather than requiring people to be members of an existing "clique". If the risk of malicious people ruining the project was so big, then Wikipedia itself could never have been started. Yes, Wikinews is different -- but a Wikinews edition which is likely to attract attention from the outside is also likely to attract attention from the inside, allowing us to deal with malicious users. Yes, Wikinews is different -- and that's why we should be welcoming to *people* who are different and not yet part of our community. Regards, Erik From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Fri Feb 18 10:06:55 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:06:55 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Intent to launch pt., pl., ro. Wikinews; further procedure In-Reply-To: <4215BEA0.5050400@gmx.de> References: <42158C27.4080805@gmx.de> <4215AD6F.8050802@laposte.net> <4215BEA0.5050400@gmx.de> Message-ID: <4215BE3F.4020401@laposte.net> > And let's not forget about > http://usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?AssumeGoodFaith - the very idea of a > wiki is to be open and welcoming to newcomers, rather than requiring > people to be members of an existing "clique". If the risk of malicious I'm not saying to be closed to newcomers, quite the opposite. But i'm saying to not let newcomers start new projects like that - slightly different :) > Regards, > > Erik Regards too (my english isn't as good as to let me use other polite words, sorry :p) Nicolas From anthere9 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 10:47:46 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 02:47:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews requirement Message-ID: <20050218104746.12631.qmail@web41826.mail.yahoo.com> So, to summarize Until a little while ago, the only requirement was that 5 people show interest. It did not matter that these 5 were trolls, or were regulars, or even voted 3 months ago. I suggested a change in policy, requiring that amongst these 5 people, at least 2 are regular editors of at least one of our projects. You agreed with this suggestion. One week later, you would like to change it again, and change the 2 regular editors requirement to a at least 2 editors are creating/translating policies on meta. When I object that a project started by 5 totally unknown editors is likely to have problems respecting our basic principles, you answer that the requirement of being a long term editor is not a proof that the editor is well versed in our policy. Though I agree with this statement, I consider it a fallacy. There is much much more chance that an editor having been for a while on a project is aware of our policies, and the fact he might NOT be is NO argument to support people with no experience is better than people with experience. We do have three major points to consider * understanding that the project is a collaboration, that a sysop is not the boss, and that being the sysop of a project absolutely does not mean that the sysop should restrict access to pages such as the main page. * understanding our neutrality policy, which is not always easy for a newbie, and results sometimes in main page being covered with advertisement * understanding our copyright policy; though less visible, it is for wikinews the more tricky one, and very likely the one most likely to get us in trouble. When someone will start a new wikinews, it is VERY likely a wikipedia will already exist in that language, so there is no need to translate ANYTHING. THe editor can just go to the relevant projet language, and COPY the NPOV rules, copy the COPYRIGHT rules. Just copy and past text does not mean this text is understood, nor that it is applied. If you mean by COPYING rules, just going to the english version and copying the rules of the english version, I will object that no project should exist which has no community able to make their own rules. If you do want an example of what I mean, I invite you to visit http://wo.wikipedia.org This is a new project. A group of editors from an african NGO want to work on it. For it to start, one of those guys asked me to be sysop on it (needed for decent start). In his country, french is widely spoken, so he just copied french wikipedia rules. Then, as soon as he was sysop, he put some advertisement for his NGO on the main page, then when the main page was restored to a more neutral situation, he put back the advertisement (in good faith I am sure) and protected the main page. In 24 hours, this editor, who want to nurture a group of at least 5 people, * broke the rule of neutrality (though he had copied them from fr) * broke the rule of collaborative writing (restricting access to main page to him only) * broke the rule of admin just being no more powerful than another editor (in reverting and protecting the page to his preference) For all I know, the text he put on the main page could be under copyright as well. In short, what you are asking is basically that we remove the requirement we just agreed upon, which was frankly not very demanding. Why did you agree on it to immediately remove your agreement ? Anthere- > > * activity shows interest, so avoid missed launches such as the french > wikinews one Actually, it doesn't. French Wikinews would have passed the edit count requirements (haven't checked user duration); as you yourself said, Greudin is a very active user on fr.wikipedia and has pledged support for the French Wikinews, yet he has only made a handful of edits there. Translating/creating policies seems to be a much better test of actual interest in doing work. Once you do that, that shows a commitment to the project. > > * past activity of at least 2 editors on a wikipedia (for example) > indicates that at least 2 editors are aware of our basic principles > and in particular NPOV requirement. What better test could there be for people understanding a policy like NPOV than requiring them to translate it? > Again, the is a security measure. If 5 people, not even one oldby on > one of our project, decide to launch a wikinews with no experience at > all, there is rather high risk that some of our principles are not > respected; I don't see it that way. Just because someone has been on Wikipedia for months doesn't mean that they respect policies at all. Quantity is not quality, and measuring quality is almost impossible while keeping the process scalable and fair. One could even argue that malicious trolls or otherwise harmful users who know how to manipulate policies in their interest are more likely to come from our existing user base. In fact, Wikinews will especially attract people who are fed up with Wikipedia and want to work on another wiki. > and since it is not in a language we necessarily manage, it might go > on for a long time. This is more likely if key policies like NPOV are *not* translated. If we can agree on which parts of our policies are not negotiable, we can make sure that they are in place. One of these policies can even include instructions on what to do if your wiki doesn't follow the Wikimedia spirit (contact stewards etc.). Future projects don't necessarily match our current userbase. To tie the process for creating new language editions directly to that userbase seems needlessly restrictive. Building a small community on Meta and writing key pages before launching the project is also simply good planning -- exactly the kind of thing that could have helped to prevent the current fr.wikinews.org situation, much more so than algorithmic requirements whose actual predictive value is very low, as that experience has shown. Regards, Erik --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From anthere9 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 10:57:20 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 02:57:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews requirement Message-ID: <20050218105720.67737.qmail@web41808.mail.yahoo.com> I regret that you use fallacies so much Erik. Trying to remove the requirement that 2 over 5 people are regulars so as to start a project, by arguing that these 2 might be trolls or want to destroy wikipedia, strike me as deeply dishonnest. I was deeply deeply unhappy of the creation of the french wikinews, because this creation was not done according to the support of the french community. The result is a broken project, which I deeply regret. I find disquieting that you tried to cool down people like notafish and I by agreeing to add a new requirement for the creation, only to try to cancel it two weeks later. You can not at the same time FORCE all communities, without asking their opinion, of not using images uploads, due to the fear of copyright violations (which is what you did a week ago) , and at the same time object to using very simple indicators to assert whether editors are aware of our policies (in particular the copyright ones). This is just illogical. Or rather... the only logic is to open more and more wikinews as quickly as possible. You just can't expect I support this Erik. =Nicolas Weeger-> And how can you check the> translation is correct unless you speak the language? :)How do I know the "regular" is not actually a troll without speaking the language? How do I know that the only reason he wants to start a Wikinews isn't that he hates Wikipedia after having spent several months there? How do I know his intentions are good? You could require one of the people to be a sysop, but that seems like an onerous requirement. An algorithmic contribution check is *not* a quality check.Let's be realistic here. What kind of person would intentionally manipulate policies and get away with it under the auspices of other users: a random person who's never been involved in our projects, or someone who is intimately familiar with them? Furthermore, remember that there would still be a requirement of *multiple users* participating. How likely is it that a malicious person would get away with deliberately falsely translating something like NPOV when working with 4 others?And let's not forget about http://usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?AssumeGoodFaith - the very idea of a wiki is to be open and welcoming to newcomers, rather than requiring people to be members of an existing "clique". If the risk of malicious people ruining the project was so big, then Wikipedia itself could never have been started. Yes, Wikinews is different -- but a Wikinews edition which is likely to attract attention from the outside is also likely to attract attention from the inside, allowing us to deal with malicious users. Yes, Wikinews is different -- and that's why we should be welcoming to *people* who are different and not yet part of our community.Regards,Erik --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Fri Feb 18 11:08:49 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:08:49 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews requirement In-Reply-To: <20050218105720.67737.qmail@web41808.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050218105720.67737.qmail@web41808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4215CCC1.4070909@laposte.net> Anthere a ?crit : > I regret that you use fallacies so much Erik. > Trying to remove the requirement that 2 over 5 people are regulars so as to start a project, > by arguing that these 2 might be trolls or want to destroy wikipedia, strike me as deeply dishonnest. > > I was deeply deeply unhappy of the creation of the french wikinews, > because this creation was not done according to the support of the french community. > The result is a broken project, which I deeply regret. > > I find disquieting that you tried to cool down people like notafish and I by agreeing to add a new requirement > for the creation, only to try to cancel it two weeks later. I agree with Anthere on a few points. You agreed on rules, you should imo apply'em on a few projects creation before asking for a change - so you can argue why it's better to change, based on experience and not just because you feel it would be better. I too regret how fr: was created - for reasons others have explained. I don't have anything against creating new projects, but i think we must make sure it won't be such a mess (i am not blaming anyone, just stating facts). And changing rules all the time makes for a real mess in my opinion. I understand your motivations are to create more wikinews. Fine, but in due time, no need to rush, wait for community to ask loudly for a wikinews. Nicolas Ryo From ginu.george at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 11:26:52 2005 From: ginu.george at gmail.com (Ginu George) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 15:26:52 +0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews requirement In-Reply-To: <4215CCC1.4070909@laposte.net> References: <20050218105720.67737.qmail@web41808.mail.yahoo.com> <4215CCC1.4070909@laposte.net> Message-ID: As news considered let it be 24X7 always. So need more than 5 people in the team i think And if you all prefer mark one specific domains, as they have expertise, like politics, business, technology etc etc.. So more than a number the team needs good journalists rather than just information providers.. -- Regards Ginu George Journalist and Media Researcher Dubai, United Arab Emirates On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:08:49 +0100, Nicolas Weeger wrote: > Anthere a ?crit : > > I regret that you use fallacies so much Erik. > > Trying to remove the requirement that 2 over 5 people are regulars so as to start a project, > > by arguing that these 2 might be trolls or want to destroy wikipedia, strike me as deeply dishonnest. > > > > I was deeply deeply unhappy of the creation of the french wikinews, > > because this creation was not done according to the support of the french community. > > The result is a broken project, which I deeply regret. > > > > I find disquieting that you tried to cool down people like notafish and I by agreeing to add a new requirement > > for the creation, only to try to cancel it two weeks later. > > I agree with Anthere on a few points. You agreed on rules, you should > imo apply'em on a few projects creation before asking for a change - so > you can argue why it's better to change, based on experience and not > just because you feel it would be better. > > I too regret how fr: was created - for reasons others have explained. I > don't have anything against creating new projects, but i think we must > make sure it won't be such a mess (i am not blaming anyone, just stating > facts). And changing rules all the time makes for a real mess in my opinion. > > I understand your motivations are to create more wikinews. Fine, but in > due time, no need to rush, wait for community to ask loudly for a wikinews. > > Nicolas Ryo > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > From aphaia at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 11:39:36 2005 From: aphaia at gmail.com (Aphaia) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 20:39:36 +0900 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Intent to launch pt., pl., ro. Wikinews; further procedure In-Reply-To: <42159A7A.5050603@gmx.de> References: <42158C27.4080805@gmx.de> <42159209.2070007@yahoo.com> <42159A7A.5050603@gmx.de> Message-ID: <35be2a7105021803394dde9857@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 08:34:18 +0100, Erik Moeller wrote: > Translating/creating policies seems to be a much better test of actual > interest in doing work. Once you do that, that shows a commitment to the > project. Agreed. A project need to have some principal policies at its start - or would be better: after seeing the current situation of Japanese Wiktionary, I strongly recommend everyone to expect creating a new project. Without principal policy some prudent editors hesitate to submit articles. Vandals don't care such things ... and specially continuous labor by active sysops sometimes a disastrous situation could arise - like Ja wiktionary. Though I can't summarize the whole history of Ja wiktionary since its creating, one major reason of its administrative weakness is its fail to establish ground principals in its early days in my opinion: an active user insisted to licence articles not under GFDL but other conditions. I don't remember the details, but it was enough to hesitate contributors to submit if I recall correctly,. I admit it was a very extreme case, but I convince if we can provide a newly created project with basic policies, even if they are rough and need improvement, it is much better than lack of them. > Future projects don't necessarily match our current userbase. To tie the > process for creating new language editions directly to that userbase > seems needlessly restrictive. Building a small community on Meta and > writing key pages before launching the project is also simply good > planning Preparing somewhere, on meta or existing Wikinews (at subpages of user page) seems good to me. If preferable, Wikinews proposed can have platform to prepare and draft their policies on meta (like TR). It would make them to give a look on other projects' policy and give a good occasion to consider their own in comparison with others: a diversity of projects give us a good chance to elaborate our policies. For suspicion a project would be created by newbies or trolls who understand not our policy, such platform on meta could give the transparency of their policy to interesting observers. -- Aphaea@*.wikipedia.org email: Aphaia @ gmail (dot) com From anthere9 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 13:11:45 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 05:11:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikinews Message-ID: <20050218131145.50156.qmail@web41823.mail.yahoo.com> >As news considered let it be 24X7 always. So need more than 5 people >in the team i think >And if you all prefer mark one specific domains, as they have >expertise, like politics, business, technology etc etc.. >So more than a number the team needs good journalists rather than just >information providers.. >-- >Regards >Ginu George >Journalist and Media Researcher >Dubai, United Arab Emirates I strongly agree with you Ginu. There is a huge difference with the encyclopedia. With wikipedia, we do not need all expertises at the same time, one area can be greatly improved for a couple of months, while another goes unnoticed for months. Wikinews on the other hand, requires much more that people makes team, if only to try to cover a couple of areas. Even if there are few editors and cannot cover all news, a team of 4-5 in scientific covering could make it very successful in a small areas. This is doubly interesting in Wikinews as news are interesting only for a couple of days, not weeks, months or years as in the encyclopedia. As long as a wikinews will be unable to cover all news topics, I think it should focus on providing good news in *one* area and get famous thanks to it. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! ? What will yours do? From ginu.george at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 13:33:04 2005 From: ginu.george at gmail.com (Ginu George) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 17:33:04 +0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikinews In-Reply-To: <20050218131145.50156.qmail@web41823.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050218131145.50156.qmail@web41823.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Anthere, I am doing a news wire for the last 3 years. I know the real pain behind that. We need a full desk to do news. Not like encyclopedia. If one person who is not taking the responsibility will destroy the aunthenticity of wikinews. If the people is ready then i am ready to contribute well with my desk. Let us think from the top ...... george On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 05:11:45 -0800 (PST), Anthere wrote: > >As news considered let it be 24X7 always. So need more than 5 people > >in the team i think > > >And if you all prefer mark one specific domains, as they have > >expertise, like politics, business, technology etc etc.. > > >So more than a number the team needs good journalists rather than just > >information providers.. > > >-- > >Regards > >Ginu George > >Journalist and Media Researcher > >Dubai, United Arab Emirates > > I strongly agree with you Ginu. > > There is a huge difference with the encyclopedia. > With wikipedia, we do not need all expertises at the same time, one area can be greatly improved for a couple of months, while another goes unnoticed for months. > > Wikinews on the other hand, requires much more that people makes team, if only to try to cover a couple of areas. > Even if there are few editors and cannot cover all news, a team of 4-5 in scientific covering could make it very successful in a small areas. > > This is doubly interesting in Wikinews as news are interesting only for a couple of days, not weeks, months or years as in the encyclopedia. > > As long as a wikinews will be unable to cover all news topics, I think it should focus on providing good news in *one* area and get famous thanks to it. > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! ? What will yours do? > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > -- Regards Ginu George Journalist and Media Researcher Dubai, United Arab Emirates From anthere9 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 13:42:25 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 05:42:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikinews Message-ID: <20050218134226.69137.qmail@web41827.mail.yahoo.com> >Anthere, >I am doing a news wire for the last 3 years. I am glad to know we have journalists among us, they will help avoid the worse directions. >I know the real pain >behind that. We need a full desk to do news. Not like encyclopedia. Agreed I can perfectly well see the absolutely amazing force which could be behind a wikinews. With a full desk, a united team, the impact of a wikinews will be huge. But this could happen right now in english, possibly german. Possibly another language. But it just do not make sense that we have a wikinews site with only 2 editors. Even though they really try their best, they just can't manage. And as Britty mentionned, it is important that each wikinews has a couple of people interested in building the committee, not taking care of news, just drafting policies, strengthening the project. Unfortunately, not every one likes doing this. In the end, building a wikinews on 5 people... just makes little sense to me. >If one person who is not taking the responsibility will destroy the >aunthenticity of wikinews. If the people is ready then i am ready to >contribute well with my desk. I would be glad that you do so in arab. But this community is probably not ready at all. >Let us think from the top ...... What do you mean here George ? >george Ant --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From ginu.george at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 13:48:31 2005 From: ginu.george at gmail.com (Ginu George) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 17:48:31 +0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikinews In-Reply-To: <20050218134226.69137.qmail@web41827.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050218134226.69137.qmail@web41827.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: hi, am not well versed in arabic, really am Indian, so dont expect any arabic version from me. First of all we have to make the english edition running well, meantime think about the languiage versions. So if people will translate the english to german and vice versa thats more good and regional news will become global. As a global village make all the news for the global community. So i prefer english first and i will think other languages... My Specialisation is Media, Health and Business.....And Global Cinema (Parallel Cinema) Regards George On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 05:42:25 -0800 (PST), Anthere wrote: > >Anthere, > > >I am doing a news wire for the last 3 years. > > I am glad to know we have journalists among us, they will help avoid the worse directions. > > >I know the real pain > >behind that. We need a full desk to do news. Not like encyclopedia. > > Agreed > I can perfectly well see the absolutely amazing force which could be behind a wikinews. > With a full desk, a united team, the impact of a wikinews will be huge. > > But this could happen right now in english, possibly german. Possibly another language. > But it just do not make sense that we have a wikinews site with only 2 editors. > Even though they really try their best, they just can't manage. > And as Britty mentionned, it is important that each wikinews has a couple of people interested in building the committee, not taking care of news, just drafting policies, strengthening the project. Unfortunately, not every one likes doing this. > In the end, building a wikinews on 5 people... just makes little sense to me. > > >If one person who is not taking the responsibility will destroy the > >aunthenticity of wikinews. If the people is ready then i am ready to > >contribute well with my desk. > > I would be glad that you do so in arab. > But this community is probably not ready at all. > > >Let us think from the top ...... > > What do you mean here George ? > > >george > > Ant > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > -- Regards Ginu George Journalist and Media Researcher Dubai, United Arab Emirates From anthere9 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 15:04:49 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 07:04:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews Message-ID: <20050218150449.38658.qmail@web41803.mail.yahoo.com> >>>Let us think from the top ...... >> What do you mean here George ? >hi, am not well versed in arabic, really am Indian, so dont expect any >arabic version from me. Oh well... >First of all we have to make the english edition running well, >meantime think about the languiage versions. So if people will >translate the english to german and vice versa thats more good and >regional news will become global. >As a global village make all the news for the global community. So i >prefer english first and i will think other languages... I agree we should focus on having german and english run well before focusing on other languages. I disagree with considering these two languages the "top" while others are the "bottom". >My Specialisation is Media, Health and Business.....And Global Cinema >(Parallel Cinema) quite eclectic... :-) >Regards >George --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From ginu.george at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 15:46:13 2005 From: ginu.george at gmail.com (Ginu George) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:46:13 +0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews In-Reply-To: <20050218150449.38658.qmail@web41803.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050218150449.38658.qmail@web41803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The news we can integrate via a single platform. So any one from any location can submit a news. But that wil go only through the moderators. So once two people submit one news automatically the second will go down. Here we can create users, trusted journalists, moderators and admins. So What we going to do Answering the rest.... First of all the editors have to think about that. Thats what i mean by top I dint mean english and german is top There is nothing elctric in my statement!! On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 07:04:49 -0800 (PST), Anthere wrote: > >>>Let us think from the top ...... > > >> What do you mean here George ? > > >hi, am not well versed in arabic, really am Indian, so dont expect any > >arabic version from me. > > Oh well... > > >First of all we have to make the english edition running well, > >meantime think about the languiage versions. So if people will > >translate the english to german and vice versa thats more good and > >regional news will become global. > > >As a global village make all the news for the global community. So i > >prefer english first and i will think other languages... > > I agree we should focus on having german and english run well before focusing on other languages. > I disagree with considering these two languages the "top" while others are the "bottom". > > >My Specialisation is Media, Health and Business.....And Global Cinema > >(Parallel Cinema) > > quite eclectic... :-) > > >Regards > > >George > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > -- Regards Ginu George Journalist and Media Researcher Dubai, United Arab Emirates From erik_moeller at gmx.de Fri Feb 18 16:25:23 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 17:25:23 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews requirement In-Reply-To: <20050218105720.67737.qmail@web41808.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050218105720.67737.qmail@web41808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <421616F3.3000203@gmx.de> Anthere, I won't discuss this further with you as long as any email discussion with you turns into a tirade of accusations and insults. Regards, Erik From anthere9 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 16:24:17 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 08:24:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews Message-ID: <20050218162418.51715.qmail@web41803.mail.yahoo.com> >The news we can integrate via a single platform. So any one from any >location can submit a news. But that wil go only through the >moderators. So once two people submit one news automatically the >second will go down. >Here we can create users, trusted journalists, moderators and admins. >So What we going to do >Answering the rest.... >First of all the editors have to think about that. Thats what i mean by top I think it is high time I go back to the english wikinews to look at what is going on... I was not aware there was (or planning to be ?) different status such as admin and moderators. Hmmm, oh well. >I dint mean english and german is top >There is nothing elctric in my statement!! Electric ? :-)))) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From andreengels at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 18:41:01 2005 From: andreengels at gmail.com (Andre Engels) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:41:01 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews requirement In-Reply-To: <421616F3.3000203@gmx.de> References: <20050218105720.67737.qmail@web41808.mail.yahoo.com> <421616F3.3000203@gmx.de> Message-ID: <6faf39c9050218104137bb9580@mail.gmail.com> Erik, If you consider this a tirade of accusations and insults, you should go and think about whether perhaps it is your own fault. Apparently rules have been decided, which both Anthere and you agreed on. Then singlehandedly you change those rules, and apply a whole new version. Now you decide that Anthere is not worth discussing those rules with. As far as I know, the only one in our group that deserves the name 'benevolent dictator' is Jimbo. Not you. Andre Engels > I won't discuss this further with you as long as any email discussion > with you turns into a tirade of accusations and insults. From erik_moeller at gmx.de Fri Feb 18 18:56:55 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:56:55 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews requirement In-Reply-To: <6faf39c9050218104137bb9580@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050218105720.67737.qmail@web41808.mail.yahoo.com> <421616F3.3000203@gmx.de> <6faf39c9050218104137bb9580@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42163A77.2070603@gmx.de> Anthere- >Erik, > >If you consider this a tirade of accusations and insults, you should >go and think about whether perhaps it is your own fault. Apparently >rules have been decided, which both Anthere and you agreed on. Then >singlehandedly you change those rules, and apply a whole new version. >Now you decide that Anthere is not worth discussing those rules with. > You shouldn't believe everything Anthere says. No rules have been changed, nor applied. Regards, Erik From anthere9 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 19:04:33 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 20:04:33 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: wikinews requirement References: <20050218105720.67737.qmail@web41808.mail.yahoo.com> <421616F3.3000203@gmx.de> Message-ID: <42163C41.6030107@yahoo.com> Ah ? Well Please accept my apologies if you felt insulted. Ant Erik Moeller a ?crit: > Anthere, > > I won't discuss this further with you as long as any email discussion > with you turns into a tirade of accusations and insults. > > Regards, > > Erik From maveric149 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 19:10:30 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:10:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 0 Fund Drive Report Message-ID: <20050218191030.90310.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> Our first quarter 2005 fund drive officially started at midnight UTC Friday morning. On Day 0 (Thursday eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not available in UTC) we made $1,023.19 (USD) through PayPal (other sources unkown). As of right now we have generated a total of $7,043.80 in the fund drive (PayPal only; other sources unkown), so Day 1 looks like it will be big. Some choice comments from Day 0: See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_0 "Amazing. I've spent many many hours here over the last couple months learning about our world. Please keep it up!" by Sean Vaughan "I wanted to be the first" by Daniel Wool (hi Danny!) "I have learned so much from this site. I used to be frustrated because I couldn't read about things on sites like Encarta, but now I can and it's all here." by Anonymous "I absolutely love Wikipedia, I have never donated to anything before but I gladly do to this!" by Anonymous "WikiPeida rocks!" by David Ouziel And my personal favorite: "May the fleas of a thousand camels infest the underpants of your enemies" by Christopher J Hutten Czaps Daniel Mayer, Wikimedia CFO PS - there still is much translating work to do at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF/Fundraising_pages __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From maveric149 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 19:18:13 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:18:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 0 Fund Drive Report Message-ID: <20050218191814.31540.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> Our first quarter 2005 fund drive officially started at midnight UTC Friday morning. On Day 0 (Thursday eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not available in UTC) we made $1,023.19 (USD) through PayPal (other sources unknown). As of right now we have generated a total of $7,043.80 in the fund drive (PayPal only; other sources unknown), so Day 1 looks like it will be big. Some choice comments from Day 0: See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_0 "Amazing. I've spent many many hours here over the last couple months learning about our world. Please keep it up!" by Sean Vaughan "I wanted to be the first" by Daniel Wool (hi Danny!) "I have learned so much from this site. I used to be frustrated because I couldn't read about things on sites like Encarta, but now I can and it's all here." by Anonymous "I absolutely love Wikipedia, I have never donated to anything before but I gladly do to this!" by Anonymous "WikiPeida rocks!" by David Ouziel And my personal favorite: "May the fleas of a thousand camels infest the underpants of your enemies" by Christopher J Hutten Czaps Daniel Mayer, Wikimedia CFO PS - there still is much translating work to do at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF/Fundraising_pages __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From anthere9 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 19:23:44 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 20:23:44 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: wikinews requirement References: <20050218105720.67737.qmail@web41808.mail.yahoo.com> <421616F3.3000203@gmx.de> <6faf39c9050218104137bb9580@mail.gmail.com> <42163A77.2070603@gmx.de> Message-ID: <421640C0.1080605@yahoo.com> Erik Moeller a ?crit: > Anthere- > >> Erik, >> >> If you consider this a tirade of accusations and insults, you should >> go and think about whether perhaps it is your own fault. Apparently >> rules have been decided, which both Anthere and you agreed on. Then >> singlehandedly you change those rules, and apply a whole new version. >> Now you decide that Anthere is not worth discussing those rules with. >> > You shouldn't believe everything Anthere says. No rules have been > changed, nor applied. > > Regards, > > Erik Sorry here, but... I made a proposal to have at least a certain number of these 5 required editors be "regulars". No one opposed. You did not oppose it. We also discussed it privately on irc, and it seems to me we agreed upon this solution. Later, you wrote http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2005-February/002120.html For me, this counted like an agreement from you. Not ??? You did not agree with this ??? What have we been discussing upon during days then ??? Ant From saintonge at telus.net Fri Feb 18 21:34:05 2005 From: saintonge at telus.net (Ray Saintonge) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:34:05 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews requirement In-Reply-To: <20050218104746.12631.qmail@web41826.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050218104746.12631.qmail@web41826.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42165F4D.8020200@telus.net> Anthere wrote: >* understanding that the project is a collaboration, that a sysop is not the boss, and that being the sysop of a project absolutely does not mean that the sysop should restrict access to pages such as the main page. > Unfortunately main pages need to be protected more quickly than others. When a vandal alters the main page to redirect to his home page or to a porno page the effect can be to put the whole project off line until somebody can fix it. For a big project many knowledgeable people are available to react quickly, but it is also a greater magnet for vandals. A small project may have these problems less often, but it may stay there longer before being fixed. Solving this problem should be done in a way that minimizes damage to collaborativeness. >When someone will start a new wikinews, it is VERY likely a wikipedia will already exist in that language, so there is no need to translate ANYTHING. THe editor can just go to the relevant projet language, and COPY the NPOV rules, copy the COPYRIGHT rules. Just copy and past text does not mean this text is understood, nor that it is applied. > >If you mean by COPYING rules, just going to the english version and copying the rules of the english version, I will object that no project should exist which has no community able to make their own rules. > Exactly! It makes me wonder about those people who feel that they cannot function unless they have previously adopted a complete system of rules. Except for broad questions of fundamental principles communities must preceed rules. Rules must then reflect the community and codify its practices. They must be sensitive to a changing zeitgeist. Sometimes we need to reflect on how centuries of paternalistic thought have affected the way we are today. In contrast to the diligent respect for rules, effecting real change requires counterintuitive action. It requires abandoning the cosy comfort zone that rules provide. Maybe there should be a law that whenever a politician gives a speech to his country's parliament he would need to do so with his clothes off. >If you do want an example of what I mean, I invite you to visit http://wo.wikipedia.org > >This is a new project. >A group of editors from an african NGO want to work on it. >For it to start, one of those guys asked me to be sysop on it (needed for decent start). > >In his country, french is widely spoken, so he just copied french wikipedia rules. >Then, as soon as he was sysop, he put some advertisement for his NGO on the main page, then when the main page was restored to a more neutral situation, he put back the advertisement (in good faith I am sure) and protected the main page. > Perfectly predictable when the rules are nothing but words. - not to mention the enforced ambiguity that came from decolonisation. >Translating/creating policies seems to be a much better test of actual >interest in doing work. Once you do that, that shows a commitment to the >project. > People need to do both. Mere translation is a mechanical act. There is a need to discuss how those policies guide our activity. Policies beyond fundamental principles can and should vary between projects >>Again, the is a security measure. If 5 people, not even one oldby on >>one of our project, decide to launch a wikinews with no experience at >>all, there is rather high risk that some of our principles are not >>respected; >> >> >I don't see it that way. Just because someone has been on Wikipedia for >months doesn't mean that they respect policies at all. Quantity is not >quality, and measuring quality is almost impossible while keeping the >process scalable and fair. One could even argue that malicious trolls or >otherwise harmful users who know how to manipulate policies in their >interest are more likely to come from our existing user base. > We live in a security-obsessed society, where everyone seems to have forgotten that we are all mortal. >In fact, >Wikinews will especially attract people who are fed up with Wikipedia >and want to work on another wiki. > A common phenomenon that affects all projects. Most of us like to contribute without being trapped on a merry-go-round of bickering. >This is more likely if key policies like NPOV are *not* translated. If >we can agree on which parts of our policies are not negotiable, we can >make sure that they are in place. One of these policies can even include >instructions on what to do if your wiki doesn't follow the Wikimedia >spirit (contact stewards etc.) > Maybe that would have prevented the total shutdown that is taking place on the japanese wiktionary. Yes the key policies do need to be translated, but only to the extent that they provide an operating framework. We all have a vision of what NPOV means, but its details are the subject of endless inconclusive debates. Too many people end up trying to call balls and strikes when they are standing in the outfield. They know the rulebook thoroughly, but they were holding the book upsidedown when they learned it. Ec From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 23:11:59 2005 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:11:59 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Proposal for the application for a grant that has to be applied for before the 20th] In-Reply-To: <421406C4.201@gmail.com> References: <421406C4.201@gmail.com> Message-ID: <742dfd0605021815115cb0d760@mail.gmail.com> I think this is a fabulous project, and am certain it will get funding from some source as it becomes better fleshed out. However, *please* make sure that you are addressing the needs of the organization you are applying to. As stated below, the proposal does not address the immediate IFAP priorities. If you could explain how you think the proposal could be changed to meet those priorities, I would be glad to help. As it is, I'm not sure how to make the existing proposal into a feasible application. +sj+ On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 03:51:48 +0100, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > Hoi, > > I have posted http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IFAP it is an outline for a > proposal for a $45.000,- grant. We need to apply before the 20th of this > month. Please, do understand that if we apply for this grant, we have to > spend money the way we describe. It does not help if you think we should > not spend the money. We either do or we do not apply and, that way we do > not benefit and neither do the people who benefit most who are > incidentally not the people who get paid. > > This proposal aims to achieve three things: > * cooperation with the Open Office org by creating a dictionary > integrated into wiktionary for languages they work on. This is a win win > situation > *a dictionary and translations dictionary that helps translators and > students of languages; wiktionary is a many to many dictionary > *better functionality for wiktionary that will prevent a lot of double > work and removes the need for running bots to share our work. > > I hope we agree that this is a feasible project and that we can move > forward with this proposal. > > Thanks. > GerardM From erik_moeller at gmx.de Fri Feb 18 23:16:12 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 00:16:12 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikinews China vote closed Message-ID: <4216773C.6030201@gmx.de> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews/China This vote is now closed. It was meant to help decide whether we need to hold a poll before launching the Chinese Wikinews, or whether it can be treated like all other Wikinews editions, considering the censorship risk. The vote is inconclusive. The two sides are almost evenly split, with strong opinions expressed by people on both sides. If you count all votes, the "hold a vote among Chinese language speakers" option wins by one vote. If you count only votes of users with user pages on Meta, as the rules require, the "Treat it like al other Wikinews editions" option wins by one vote. Given the sharp split of opinion, I think the decision should be deferred to the Board at this point. So, to the Board: Please put this issue on your agenda at your nearest convenience and inform us about the outcome. Until then, I will not do anything about the Chinese Wikinews. Peace, Erik From aphaia at gmail.com Sat Feb 19 00:49:26 2005 From: aphaia at gmail.com (Aphaia) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:49:26 +0900 Subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews requirement In-Reply-To: <42165F4D.8020200@telus.net> References: <20050218104746.12631.qmail@web41826.mail.yahoo.com> <42165F4D.8020200@telus.net> Message-ID: <35be2a7105021816494d609d65@mail.gmail.com> Summary: my arguments are -basic rules should be established *before* the project should start -and it means a enough number of people who are experienced at the aim of project and/or our policies and ideals, like NPOV, but with some modifications and adoptations, if necessary -it is strongly recommanded the newly created community has a good preperation, specially if they had a waiting time before their reqeust would be approved. On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:34:05 -0800, Ray Saintonge wrote: > >If you mean by COPYING rules, just going to the english version and copying the rules of the english version, I will object that no project should exist which has no community able to make their own rules. > > > Exactly! It makes me wonder about those people who feel that they > cannot function unless they have previously adopted a complete system of > rules. Except for broad questions of fundamental principles communities > must preceed rules. Agreed. The question is what are those "fundamental principles". We see each Wikimedia project has different opinion except NPOV and GFDL. Some communities count only board and the Founder's former instructions, other include other community based idea like "Be bold". So for saving a mess on some projects - wolof wp and ja wiktionary are unfortunate cases among ours - and for helping newly being created projects, it would be helpful to show what are our fundamental principals. It is more than those principals are written in letters. It is true here "letters kill you, but the spilit makes you alive". Avoiding wo wp case, the community could understand those principals and apply to their actual cases. In my opinion this assertion has two corollaries: 1) those principals could be modified applying the actual experiences on the community and 2) for this purpose, that is, its good understanding there should be people who know the aim and mechanism of the project to some extent. So it seems to me a reasonable requirement that a new project should be began by a certain number of experienced people who have been already active on some project. In most cases 50 edits are enough show their behaviour and their and understanding to the policies in my opinion, and it is different from shutting out newbies: it takes two days to make 50 major edits, if they spent whole a weekend for activity on wiki. (well I however admit it might be a view of heavy wikiholics prausibly ...) On the other hand, I agree with Ray on that most of rules would however be developed on the community through their activities, not preceeding its creation. But to manage difficult cases experience on other projects is helpful: the people who commit a project and/or the entire Wikimedia project, if possible, with sufficient understanding of policies and its mechanism. So here we expect experienced people at the beginning point of a certain project. Or > Perfectly predictable when the rules are nothing but words. such a situation would come up again, I assume. > >Translating/creating policies seems to be a much better test of actual > >interest in doing work. Once you do that, that shows a commitment to the > >project. > > > People need to do both. Mere translation is a mechanical act. There is > a need to discuss how those policies guide our activity. Policies > beyond fundamental principles can and should vary between projects So the question is what are "fundamental principles". I think we must make it clear and provide a set of those principles in a form as neutral as possible (not depending on a certain project but also refertable to some concrete cases for further understanding). For example, NPOV guidelein in NPOV (not depending on a certain language project matters) ... as a startpont for each participants who want to create a new project. > Maybe that would have prevented the total shutdown that is taking place > on the japanese wiktionary. We can point out some factors of JA wikt shutdown, though I myself was not wholely clear the situation; I had been very inactive there during some months. And after I was back, I was surprised there were no changes or progress on policies' drafting before I had left it. There were almost no discussion on Beer Parlour (VP of wiktionary). It makes me convince strongly a new project need both people who concern policies and administrative issues (though it is not so fun than submission of new entires) and eager submitter of contents. -- Aphaea@*.wikipedia.org email: Aphaia @ gmail (dot) com From notafishz at gmail.com Sat Feb 19 02:14:16 2005 From: notafishz at gmail.com (notafish) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 03:14:16 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Intent to launch pt., pl., ro. Wikinews; further procedure In-Reply-To: <35be2a7105021803394dde9857@mail.gmail.com> References: <42158C27.4080805@gmx.de> <42159209.2070007@yahoo.com> <42159A7A.5050603@gmx.de> <35be2a7105021803394dde9857@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <453b6e5050218181447ee2101@mail.gmail.com> > > Translating/creating policies seems to be a much better test of actual > > interest in doing work. Once you do that, that shows a commitment to the > > project. I am kind of torn between several things here. I do agree with Erik, new people coming to a new project can be pretty good, it gives different insight, and wikinews is definitely not like wikipedia. Also I agree that some people, not active on Wikip?dia, might be interested in Wikinews and strengthen the community. I also agree that translating the project rules or creating original ones is very important (I have started translating policies in fr, and it is quite a challenge). I also agree with Anthere though, a basic knowledge of how "life on a wiki" works is important, very important. We need people who are likely to become admins very quickly, if only to change system messages... And Ryo makes a good point, what if the policies drawn on meta are just rubbish and we can't check because we don't speak the language? To me the existing policy addresses only one of the issues, 3 users that know the wikimedia projects. I would actually *add* Erik's proposal to the launching of a new Wikinews, for I believe people on the fr wikinews have been quickly overcome by the enormous task of putting together policies. Basically, the French Wikinews was started with people who had a rough idea of what it is all about, but don't have the first clue of how to address it. Asking people to actually look at the other wikinews and try to understand the project is a very good way to measure interest. Of course, if one of the interested users has been participating in any other language wikinews, (s)he should count for both requirements (see Carlosar for exemple) So I would say 5 signatures, among which 2 people knowing how to work a wikimedia project, 2 people willing to work in advance in setting up rules. Those can be the same of course. This said, I think for the launching of the wikinews for which people have already signed up, I would not change the rules. My two cents (of a euro). Delphine From notafishz at gmail.com Sat Feb 19 02:26:39 2005 From: notafishz at gmail.com (notafish) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 03:26:39 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] wikinews requirement In-Reply-To: <35be2a7105021816494d609d65@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050218104746.12631.qmail@web41826.mail.yahoo.com> <42165F4D.8020200@telus.net> <35be2a7105021816494d609d65@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <453b6e505021818263f46990c@mail.gmail.com> My other email was written before I read this thread, sorry about that. However, my point remains the same, and I agree with many other things added on the subject, such as starting a wikinews with *only* five people, but I will leave it at that for now. cheers, Delphine From erik_moeller at gmx.de Sat Feb 19 02:46:43 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 03:46:43 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Polish, Portuguese, Romanian Wikinews set up Message-ID: <4216A893.8070106@gmx.de> As announced and in accordance with the existing language policy, three new Wikinews editions have been set up: http://pl.wikinews.org/ - Polish http://pt.wikinews.org/ - Portuguese http://ro.wikinews.org/ - Romanian I left messages for the users who have pledged to participate (and who could be located), and on the respective Wikipedia Village Pumps. Good luck to the new editions! Peace, Erik From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 19 07:27:02 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 08:27:02 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: wikinews requirement References: <20050218104746.12631.qmail@web41826.mail.yahoo.com> <42165F4D.8020200@telus.net> Message-ID: <4216EA46.8020800@yahoo.com> Ray Saintonge a ?crit: > A common phenomenon that affects all projects. Most of us like to > contribute without being trapped on a merry-go-round of bickering. > >> This is more likely if key policies like NPOV are *not* translated. If >> we can agree on which parts of our policies are not negotiable, we can >> make sure that they are in place. One of these policies can even >> include instructions on what to do if your wiki doesn't follow the >> Wikimedia spirit (contact stewards etc.) >> > Maybe that would have prevented the total shutdown that is taking place > on the japanese wiktionary. By the way... Ec and the others... what do you think of the shutdown of ja wiktionary ? I am asking the question, because if I put in line * shut down of wiktionary - after vote and decision by the japanese community only. No opposition clearly voiced after the shut down. * opening of wikinews - after decision by Erik, with 5 editors support and against french community opinion - clear complaints after the opening. * prospective opening of chinese wikinews - a poll made on meta show a lack of clarity on whether the decision should be made 1) with 5 editors or 2) with a global vote or 3) with a chinese vote So, the least we can say, is that in terms of opening projects, or closing projects, is that THERE IS NO CONSENSUS ON HOW IT SHOULD BE DONE :-) Ant From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 19 09:43:46 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 01:43:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 1 Fund Drive Report In-Reply-To: <20050218191814.31540.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050219094346.58768.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> On Day 1 (Friday eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not available in UTC) we made $9,939.47 (USD equivalent) through a combination of PayPal and MoneyBookers. PayPal breakdown: AUD 314.03 (247.27 USD) CAD 334.40 (271.58 USD) EUR 3413.75 (4464.75 USD) GBP 475.17 (899.77 USD) JPY 28340 (269 USD) USD 3424.63 Total 9576.78 (USD equivalent) Moneybookers: $362.69 (USD equivalent) For the most recent grand total and other details visit http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 Some selected comments from Day 1: See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_1 "Knowledge isn't a possession - it cannot be monopolized." by Robert K Bell "You guys rock!!" by Anonymous "Fantastic system - best of luck from a Random Page addict" " by Steve Agland "Wikipedia is Hope" by Anonymous "Ignorance breeds fear, use information to gain knowledge and empower yourself with Peace" by Anonymous "Wikipedia is a splendid way of sharing information. Lets do this!" by Anonymous "You guys do a fantastic job!!!" by Guoming Sun "You have helped me in college and in life. I don't have much money, and I've never given a donation. But if any cause is worthy, it is your own. Thank you" by Ryan Lewis "Wikipedia, is there anything it can't do?" by Anonymous "If you read this note, donate!" by Anonymous "It's Not Much But Every Individual's Contribution Counts! What The Wiki Is All About!" by Anonymous And my personal favorites: "For not deleting at least some articles" by Vladimir Mozhenkov "Wikipedia: Destroyer of productivity; love of my life." by Anonymous "bonk" by Anonymous Daniel Mayer, Wikimedia CFO PS - Still plenty of translating to do at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF/Fundraising_pages __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From notafishz at gmail.com Sat Feb 19 16:17:01 2005 From: notafishz at gmail.com (notafish) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 17:17:01 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 1 Fund Drive Report In-Reply-To: <20050219094346.58768.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050218191814.31540.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> <20050219094346.58768.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <453b6e505021908173a4f567d@mail.gmail.com> Little international addition to the interesting quotes ;-) No des pescado: ense?a a pescar. by Alberto Gaona "Don't give fish, teach how to fish." Bravo ? cette formidable initiative pour d?mocratiser la connaissance ! by Guillaume Lasnier "Bravo to this wonderful initiative destined to democratize knowledge!" Wissen ist die Waffe der Gewaltlosigkeit. by Arnim Faryn "Knowledge is the weapon of non-violence." and my favorite ones ;-) Bon j'irais pas au restau aujourd'hui ;o). by Fabrice Terrasson "Ok, I won't go to the restaurant today ;o)" Is there really a 200 character max? really? really? really? really? really? really? really? really? really? really? really? really? really? really? really? really? really? really? really? really? ok by anonymous. On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 01:43:46 -0800 (PST), Daniel Mayer wrote: > On Day 1 (Friday eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not available in > UTC) we made $9,939.47 (USD equivalent) through a combination of PayPal and > MoneyBookers. > > PayPal breakdown: > AUD 314.03 (247.27 USD) > CAD 334.40 (271.58 USD) > EUR 3413.75 (4464.75 USD) > GBP 475.17 (899.77 USD) > JPY 28340 (269 USD) > USD 3424.63 > Total 9576.78 (USD equivalent) > > Moneybookers: > $362.69 (USD equivalent) > > For the most recent grand total and other details visit > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 > > Some selected comments from Day 1: > See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_1 > > "Knowledge isn't a possession - it cannot be monopolized." by Robert K Bell > > "You guys rock!!" by Anonymous > > "Fantastic system - best of luck from a Random Page addict" " by Steve Agland > > "Wikipedia is Hope" by Anonymous > > "Ignorance breeds fear, use information to gain knowledge and empower yourself > with Peace" by Anonymous > > "Wikipedia is a splendid way of sharing information. Lets do this!" by > Anonymous > > "You guys do a fantastic job!!!" by Guoming Sun > > "You have helped me in college and in life. I don't have much money, and I've > never given a donation. But if any cause is worthy, it is your own. Thank you" > by Ryan Lewis > > "Wikipedia, is there anything it can't do?" by Anonymous > > "If you read this note, donate!" by Anonymous > > "It's Not Much But Every Individual's Contribution Counts! What The Wiki Is All > About!" by Anonymous > > And my personal favorites: > > "For not deleting at least some articles" by Vladimir Mozhenkov > > "Wikipedia: Destroyer of productivity; love of my life." by Anonymous > > "bonk" by Anonymous > From nsk2 at wikinerds.org Sat Feb 19 17:13:45 2005 From: nsk2 at wikinerds.org (NSK) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 19:13:45 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] currency POV Message-ID: <200502191913.45053.nsk2@wikinerds.org> "Wikimedia needs your help in its $75,000 (?57,500) fund drive." It should be: "Wikimedia needs your help in its US$75,000 (?57,500) fund drive." -- NSK http://portal.wikinerds.org From perrin at apotheon.com Sun Feb 20 00:34:45 2005 From: perrin at apotheon.com (Chad Perrin) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 19:34:45 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] currency POV In-Reply-To: <200502191913.45053.nsk2@wikinerds.org> References: <200502191913.45053.nsk2@wikinerds.org> Message-ID: <4217DB25.4080403@apotheon.com> NSK wrote: > "Wikimedia needs your help in its $75,000 (?57,500) fund drive." > > It should be: > > "Wikimedia needs your help in its US$75,000 (?57,500) fund drive." > Why? The $ symbol, as applied to units of capital called "dollars", was developed for use with US currency. I don't really think there's an NPOV violation going on if the "US" is omitted when representing US dollar amounts. This would, I think, be one of those occasions where it tends to work equally well either way without an implied bias, though prepending "US" might help disambiguate the representation in cases where the $ symbol is used for several different currencies. -- Chad From nsk2 at wikinerds.org Sun Feb 20 02:49:18 2005 From: nsk2 at wikinerds.org (NSK) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 04:49:18 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] currency POV In-Reply-To: <4217DB25.4080403@apotheon.com> References: <200502191913.45053.nsk2@wikinerds.org> <4217DB25.4080403@apotheon.com> Message-ID: <200502200449.18347.nsk2@wikinerds.org> On Sunday 20 February 2005 02:34, Chad Perrin wrote: > where the $ symbol is used for several different currencies. There are Canadian dollars and Australian dollars. I think there are other states using dollars, too. -- NSK http://portal.wikinerds.org From perrin at apotheon.com Sun Feb 20 02:44:51 2005 From: perrin at apotheon.com (Chad Perrin) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 21:44:51 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] currency POV In-Reply-To: <200502200449.18347.nsk2@wikinerds.org> References: <200502191913.45053.nsk2@wikinerds.org> <4217DB25.4080403@apotheon.com> <200502200449.18347.nsk2@wikinerds.org> Message-ID: <4217F9A3.8010802@apotheon.com> NSK wrote: > On Sunday 20 February 2005 02:34, Chad Perrin wrote: > >>where the $ symbol is used for several different currencies. > > > There are Canadian dollars and Australian dollars. I think there are other > states using dollars, too. > Uh, yeah. Did you read what I sent? -- Chad From scottkeir at yahoo.co.uk Sun Feb 20 03:20:07 2005 From: scottkeir at yahoo.co.uk (Scott Keir) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 03:20:07 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] UK Foundation (was Day 1 Fund Drive Report) In-Reply-To: <20050220024811.D82A51AC1938@mail.wikimedia.org> Message-ID: <51E7DB45-82EE-11D9-8479-00039387F4E4@yahoo.co.uk> Given the UK support is about 10% of the total support, has there been consideration given to setting up a UK Foundation, to promote Wikimedia and raise funds in the UK? UK law means that for donations to UK charities, either the donor can reclaim the tax they've paid on the donation, or the charity can (so if a donor gives GBP10, the charity can receive a total of GBP12.80). This is obviously more attractive to both donor and charity. There would be practical issues to consider - of administration, legal matters for setting it up, how trustees etc would be decided, and how the donations received from this charity could be put to use for Wikimedia, but I thought it was worth raising, as I haven't seen it yet on this list. (On a related note, has consideration been given to providing a "proper" facility for people to donate via credit or debit card (Visa, Mastercard, Diners etc)? Not everyone has Paypal, and their fees are quite high. If there's going to be this quantity of donations received on a regular basis, the investment in a WorldPay type system might pay off. [I've investigated this for a small UK charity I'm a trustee of, so the issue is fresh in my mind - apologies if this has been discussed before]) > On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 01:43:46 -0800 (PST), Daniel Mayer, Wikimedia CFO > wrote: > > On Day 1 (Friday eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not > available in > UTC) we made $9,939.47 (USD equivalent) through a combination of > PayPal and > MoneyBookers. > > PayPal breakdown: > AUD 314.03 (247.27 USD) > CAD 334.40 (271.58 USD) > EUR 3413.75 (4464.75 USD) > GBP 475.17 (899.77 USD) > JPY 28340 (269 USD) > USD 3424.63 > Total 9576.78 (USD equivalent) Scott Keir scottkeir at yahoo.co.uk From james at jdforrester.org Sun Feb 20 03:34:50 2005 From: james at jdforrester.org (James D. Forrester) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 03:34:50 -0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] UK Foundation (was Day 1 Fund Drive Report) In-Reply-To: <51E7DB45-82EE-11D9-8479-00039387F4E4@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200502200334.j1K3YaU1027166@mail-relay-2.csv.warwick.ac.uk> On Sunday, February 20, 2005 3:20 AM, Scott Keir wrote: [Snip] > has there been consideration given to setting up a UK Foundation, to > promote Wikimedia and raise funds in the UK? I had a quick look into it, and it looks do-able, but there are some issues (for example, the Wikimedia Foundation United Kingdom could not merely send collected monies overseas to the Wikimedia Foundation and expect to be granted charity status, but would have to be a proper institution in its own right, with a Plan and so on); however, it does look like it would be a not entirely insensible thing for us to do. Obviously, long-term, WMFUK would be sub-ordinate to WMFEU (or perhaps just WMFE?) which, in turn, would function at the behest of the WMF; however, only the last of these three organisations currently exist, so... :-) As I have said a few times before (;-)), I would be happy to help out with the establishment of a UK Foundation. [Snip] Yours, -- James D. Forrester -- Wikimedia: [[W:en:User:Jdforrester|James F.]] Mail: james at jdforrester.org | jon at eh.org | csvla at dcs.warwick.ac.uk IM : (MSN) jamesdforrester at hotmail.com From walter at vankalken.net Sun Feb 20 03:37:57 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 10:37:57 +0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] UK Foundation (was Day 1 Fund Drive Report) In-Reply-To: <200502200334.j1K3YaU1027166@mail-relay-2.csv.warwick.ac.uk> References: <200502200334.j1K3YaU1027166@mail-relay-2.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Message-ID: <42180615.30408@vankalken.net> I certainly think a Wiki UK foundation would be a good idea. So good luck in setting it up! Walter van Kalken From nsk2 at wikinerds.org Sun Feb 20 03:50:47 2005 From: nsk2 at wikinerds.org (NSK) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 05:50:47 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] currency POV In-Reply-To: <4217DB25.4080403@apotheon.com> References: <200502191913.45053.nsk2@wikinerds.org> <4217DB25.4080403@apotheon.com> Message-ID: <200502200550.47463.nsk2@wikinerds.org> On Sunday 20 February 2005 02:34, Chad Perrin wrote: > developed for use with US currency. I don't really think there's an > NPOV violation going on if the "US" is omitted when representing US Wikipedia is international, not a US site. Canadians expect to read Canadian values when they see $. It should be US$ to maintain NPOV. -- NSK http://portal.wikinerds.org From charles.podles at gmail.com Sun Feb 20 04:24:17 2005 From: charles.podles at gmail.com (Charles Podles) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 23:24:17 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] currency POV In-Reply-To: <200502200550.47463.nsk2@wikinerds.org> References: <200502191913.45053.nsk2@wikinerds.org> <4217DB25.4080403@apotheon.com> <200502200550.47463.nsk2@wikinerds.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 05:50:47 +0200, NSK wrote: > Wikipedia is international, not a US site. Canadians expect to read Canadian > values when they see $. It should be US$ to maintain NPOV. > > -- > NSK [[en:MediaWiki:Sitenotice]] specifies US dollars. [[Wikimedia:Wikimedia needs your help]] and [[Wikimedia:Fundraising]] both specify US dollars, while the donation report ([[Wikimedia:Fund drives/2005/Q1/Day 1]]) breaks the amounts down by national currency. Does it need to be changed anywhere else? If not, why is it still being argued about? -- Charles Podles From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 20 05:44:20 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 21:44:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] UK Foundation (was Day 1 Fund Drive Report) In-Reply-To: <51E7DB45-82EE-11D9-8479-00039387F4E4@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20050220054420.19978.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> --- Scott Keir wrote: > (On a related note, has consideration been given to providing a > "proper" facility for people to donate via credit or debit card (Visa, > Mastercard, Diners etc)? Not everyone has Paypal, and their fees are > quite high. If there's going to be this quantity of donations received > on a regular basis, the investment in a WorldPay type system might pay > off. [I've investigated this for a small UK charity I'm a trustee of, > so the issue is fresh in my mind - apologies if this has been discussed > before]) Yep - This is going to happen, likely before the next fund drive. But we will keep PayPal as alternate payment option. -- mav __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Sun Feb 20 08:31:09 2005 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 03:31:09 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] UK Foundation (was Day 1 Fund Drive Report) In-Reply-To: <51E7DB45-82EE-11D9-8479-00039387F4E4@yahoo.co.uk> References: <20050220024811.D82A51AC1938@mail.wikimedia.org> <51E7DB45-82EE-11D9-8479-00039387F4E4@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <742dfd06050220003139b8ee1a@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 03:20:07 +0000, Scott Keir wrote: > Not everyone has Paypal, and their fees are quite high. Paypal allows you to donate with a credit card... and their fees are among the lowest I've seen. Are you sure you're referring to their current fee schedule, and not remembering what it was like two years ago? -- +sj+ From beesley at gmail.com Sun Feb 20 16:27:05 2005 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:27:05 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] UK Foundation (was Day 1 Fund Drive Report) In-Reply-To: <51E7DB45-82EE-11D9-8479-00039387F4E4@yahoo.co.uk> References: <20050220024811.D82A51AC1938@mail.wikimedia.org> <51E7DB45-82EE-11D9-8479-00039387F4E4@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <8b722b800502200827672c453e@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 03:20:07 +0000, Scott Keir wrote: > Given the UK support is about 10% of the total support, has there been > consideration given to setting up a UK Foundation, to promote Wikimedia > and raise funds in the UK? Yes, there has. See http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/British_Wikimedia_chapter There is currently an issue about exactly what area the chapter should cover. British Isles or UK or only England & Wales (since those have a separate charity law from Scotland etc) There has been limited interest in the chapter so far. Only ten people have pledged any interest, despite 86 people being listed at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:UK_Wikipedians%27_notice_board Angela. From yann at forget-me.net Sun Feb 20 18:06:58 2005 From: yann at forget-me.net (Yann Forget) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 19:06:58 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] WSIS: Summary report. Week 1/informe semana 1/rapport semaine 1 Message-ID: <200502201906.58666.yann@forget-me.net> Hi, Here is the summary report from the first week of the World Summit on Information Society meeting in Geneva. Divina Frau-Meigs was very helpful adding our concerns in this report. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Education_and_WGIG.pdf Comments welcome. Regards, Yann ---------- Message transmis ---------- Subject: Summary report. Week 1/informe semana 1/rapport semaine 1 Date: Sunday 20 February 2005 18:31 Text in three languages/texte en trois langues/texto en tres idiomas Dear members of the list General comments : As I foresaw, the first week of prepcom 2 was rather hectic, and scattered. The bureau (in which education holds a seat, that i share with Francis Muguet for reasons of efficiency) is still plodding along to find its legitimacy and you should see on the plenary list some of the recommendations for the charter that we are elaborating (about membership, role, responsibilities and duties). The content and themes group meets everyday in the late afternoon to discuss the topics and texts of the interventions in plenary. The education family should have a slot next week, towards the end. I plan to insert the main themes of our response to the ? friends of the president ?, with an emphasis on funding mechanisms and post-tunis follow up. A quick evaluation of the situation for education : -thank you for the text that you have helped elaborate. It has been well received by most of you who have sent positive responses, and added some details which i will integrate in the next version. The problem remains one of language translation and we should endeavour to have at least a French and spanish version soon. The text has been well received by the other civil society caucuses and by the official delegations i have submitted it to. It turns out that the long version is not a bad thing at all : people are not all experts and they appreciate to have a rationale, before being given recommendations. At this point, the way i summarize the rationale is : ? education for shared knowledge societies and via open access ? ; the plan of action is : ? for a change of scales ?. the long version has allowed delegations to position themselves on specific points they want to defend or support, as they are having to make priorities. So the Tunisians are supporting the free software idea, as they have designated a free software secretariat ; the Europeans are expressing strong interest in the open access recommendation idea ; unesco wants to follow up on teacher training and digital literacy. This is the feedback so far. For next week : The document is not yet perfect. I am currently adding, with those present on the spot, a new item, at the end of the political chapeau, about rights, especially an exemption to Intellectual Property rights for education. The European union has it already as a directive but most countries are pretending they don?t know what it is?. More to the point of prepcom 2, we need to finalize the input on finance mechanisms and internet governance. We will be meeting with the finance mechanisms caucus several times during the week to get their knowledgeable input and to be coherent with civil society positions at large. Same thing for internet governance, though it is a theme that will be deepened as the main subject of prepcom 3, which gives us a little bit more time to make our ideas concrete. A finalized version of the text should reach you by the end of the week, to be still worked on and possibly translated in at least the 6 UN languages. This should be finalized by mid-march so that you can all appropriate it. For next month : -once the text is finalized, each and all of us should distribute it to our governement delegations, as a means of lobbying ; -once the text is finalized, each and all of us should use it as ? language ? in whatever venue we are invited to talk and to participate? Bernard Loing is also preparing a shorter version, on two pages, to serve as a leaftlet to distribute in the name of the taskforce. for prepcom 3 : Organize a roundtable, around one of our issues, maybe around the idea of open access in education, or around media and ICT literacy? On the homework for all those of you who are away, besides the input you can give us it would be strategically important to create two annexes : one with ? inspiring examples ?, one of ? suggested or planned events ?. This is for you to let other know what you are doing or suggest the taskforce to do. Feel free of course to keep on providing feedback and reactions to the version that you have now? Also for your information, some deadlines : Proposals for side events, to be channelled to the Tunisian liaison people, are received until end of April, at the latest ; WGIG open input, for mid April, and again some time in May. Please look at the 3 page document I am putting as annex (at the very bottom of this message): it is the current state of the WGIG document on education, that seems to have been open by an unknown member of the WGIG group. You will see it is very incomplete. We should complete it as much as we can and offer it for consideration to the taskforce. They are asking for input and there is no deadline. I would like us to have a deadline, by end of March, once we have our own response to the president?s friends finalized. What do you think ? Best Divina Frau-Meigs Co-ordinator, education, academia and research taskforce ANNEX below, three pages : WGIG file on education and capacity building. To be completed by us? ******************** chers membres de la liste : commentaires g?n?raux : Comme je l?avais pr?vu, la premi?re semaine de la prepcom 2 a ?t? plut?t bouscul?e et tr?s ?parpill?e. Le bureau (dans lequel la famille ?ducation a un si?ge, que je partage avec Francis Muguet pour des raisons d?efficacit?) est encore ? la recherche de sa propre l?gitim?. Vous avez du voir passer dans la liste de pl?ni?re certaines des recommandations de fonctionnement pour la charte que nous sommes en train d??laborer (sur les membres, le r?le du bureau, ses responsabilit?s, ses devoirs). Le groupe des Th?mes et contenus qui ?labore les textes de la soci?t? civile se r?unit chaque apr?s-midi pour discuter des sujets et des textes ? proposer en pl?ni?re. La famille ?ducation devrait avoir un cr?neau pour la semaine prochaine, jeudi ou vendredi. Je pense que nous y ins?rerons les r?ponses principales que nous avons faites aux ? amis du pr?sident ? avec une focalisation sur les m?canismes de financement et le suivi de Tunis. Une rapide ?valuation de la situation pour l??ducation : Merci ? tous pour vos contributions au texte que nous avons pu ?laborer. La plupart d?entre vous m?ont fait un commentaire positif, en ajoutant quelques points de d?tail que je vais int?grer. Il y a cependant le probl?me de la langue de travail et le besoin d?une traduction au moins en fran?ais et en espagnol?. Le texte a ?t? tr?s bien re?u par les autres groupes de travail de la soci?t? civile et par les d?l?gations officielles auxquelles je l?ai soumis. Il s?av?re que d?avoir une version longue n?est pas une mauvaise chose : les participants m?me c?t? ?tats ne sont pas des experts, et ils appr?cient d?avoir un argumentaire, avant de consid?rer les recommandations. A cette ?tape, je r?sume souvent notre argumentaire par le motto : ? ?ducation pour les soci?t?s du savoir partag?, par le biais de l?acc?s ouvert ?, et le plan d?action par ? pour un changement d??chelles ?. La version longue permet aux d?l?gations de se positionner par rapport ? des th?mes sp?cifiques qu?elles ont envie de d?fendre, car la plupart des ?tats doivent choisir des priorit?s. Ainsi les tunisiens sont pr?ts ? soutenir l?id?e du logiciel libre, et ils ont d?sign? un ministre d?l?gu? au logiciel libre ; les Europ?ens ont exprim? leur int?r?t pour la recommandation sur les cours en acc?s ouvert ; l?Unesco veut faire le suivi de la formation des ma?tres et de l??ducation aux m?dias et aux TIC. Voil? le retour pour le moment? Pour la semaine prochaine : Le document ? r?ponse aux amis du pr?sident ? n?est pas parfait, et c?est celui sur lequel travaillent aussi les ?tats. Je suis en train de rajouter un item suppl?mentaire, ? la fin du chapeau politique (avec ses recommandations d?action en partie op?rationnelle), concernant les droits et sp?cialement la cr?ation d?une exemption aux droits d?auteur pour l??ducation. L?Union europ?enne a d?j? une directive en ce sens, mais la plupart des pays se font tirer l?oreille? Pour coller davantage ? la prepcom 2, qui se focalise sur les m?canismes de financement, il faut concr?tiser la section sur les m?canismes de financement, sans n?gliger la gouvernance d?internet. Nous allons rencontrer ? plusieurs reprises le groupe de travail sur les m?canismes de financement pendant la semaine, pour recevoir leurs remarques et int?grer leur point de vue, afin de rester en coh?rence avec les positions g?n?rales de la soci?t? civile. De m?me avec la gouvernance d?internet, bien que ce soit un th?me qui sera vraiment d?battu en prepcom 3, ce qui nous laisse un peu de temps pour r?fl?chir. Donc une version finalis?e de ce texte devrait vous arriver pour la fin de la semaine, que nous pourrons continuer ? ?laborer, et faire traduire dans les six langues de l?ONU si possible. Ce texte devrait ?tre finalis? vers la mi-mars, pour que vous puissiez tous vous l?approprier. Pour le mois prochain: -une fois le texte finalis?, nous devrions tous les uns et les autres le faire parvenir ? nos d?l?gations nationales et aux ambassadeurs mandat?s au SMSI, comme une fa?on de faire du lobbying ; -une fois le texte finalis?, nous devrions tous utiliser son ? langage ? dans les diff?rentes occasions et ?v?nements o? nous pouvons avoir la possibilit? de nous exprimer. Bernard Loing est en train de pr?parer une version courte, en recto verso, pour nous servir de brochure ? distribuer au nom de la coalition. Pour la prepcom 3 : Il faudrait consid?rer la possiblit? d?organiser une table-ronde, avec des personnalit?s, autour d?un de nos probl?mes principaux, peut-?tre l?id?e de l?acc?s ouvert pour l??ducation, ou encore l??ducation aux m?dias et aux NTIC? Des suggestions ? Pour ce qui est des devoirs ? la maison que tous ceux qui ne peuvent ?tre pr?sents ? Gen?ve, ? part les remarques que vous pouvez nous donner sur le texte, ce serait strat?giquement important de cr?er Deux annexes ? notre texte : l?une sur les ? exemples ?difiants ? l?autre pour les ? ?v?nements planifi?s ou sugg?r?s ?. cela nous permettrait de savoir ce que vous faites ou ce que vous voudriez que la coalition fasse, d?ici ? Tunis (Tunis y inclus). N?h?sitez donc pas ? nous faire part de vos r?actions et suggestions. Pour votre information, quelques dates limites : -les propositions pour les ?v?nements parall?les ? Tunis sont ? faire passer par le personnel de liaison Tunisien, avant la fin avril. -le Groupe sur la gouvernance d?internet (WGIG) tiendra encore des r?unions ouvertes ? Gen?ve en avril et en mai. Veuillez regarder les 3 pages que je vous envoie en annexe (? la fin de ce message) : il s?agit d?un fichier qui est actuellement parmi les documents produits par le groupe. Vous verrez qu?il est vide ou du moins tr?s incomplet. Je vous propose de le compl?ter et de le soumettre au WGIG comme notre contribution. Il n?y a pas de date limite, mais pour nous je dirais qu?il faudrait le leur envoyer fin mars, apr?s avoir finalis? notre propre document. Qu?en pensez-vous ? avec mes cordiales salutations Divina Frau-Meigs Co-ordinatrice, famille ?ducation, enseignement sup?rieur et recherche PS : en annexe et seulement en anglais, le texte mentionn? concernant le WGIG. ********************************************* Estimados miembros de la lista educacion Comentarios generales Como se debia de esperar, la primera semana de la prepcom 2 fue bastante precipitada y la gente bastante dispersada, con personas llegando por primera vez, otra solo quedandose unos cuantos dias? El buro de la sociedad civil (en el que la familia educacion tiene una posicion, que comparto con Francis Muguet, por razones de eficacia) todavia este en busqueda de su legitimidad. Habeis visto pasar en la lista de plenaria algunas de la recomendaciones que se proponen para una carta que estamos elaborando (miembros, papel, responsabilidades y deberes del buro). El grupo de temas y contenidos se reune cada tarde , para elaborar los textos que la sociedad civil propone en la plenaria. La familia educacion tiene un tiempo de palabra para la semana que viene, el jueves o el viernes. Pienso que pondremos nuestras respuestas principales al texto que hemos escrito para los amigos del presidente, con una focalizacion sobre los mecanismos de financiamiento y la continuacion despues de Tunes. Una rapida evaluacion de la situacion para la educacion : Muchas gracias a todos por sus contribuciones al texto que hemos podido elaborar. La mayoria me ha dado comentarios positivos, con ciertos detalles suplementarios que voy a integrar en la nueva version. Hay un problema de idioma y la necessidad de traduccion en espanol y frances que una persona ha planteado y por el que les pido ayuda. .. el texto como esta ahora ha sido bien recibido por los otros grupos de trabajo de la sociedad civil y tarmbien por la delegaciones oficiales que lo han visto. Tener una version larga no es tan pesado como se hubiera podido pensar : la mayoria de la gente presente, por parte de los estados, o es nueva en la cumbre o no es especialista y entonces aprecian tener un argumentario, que les ayuda entender nuestras recomendaciones. Por el momento, cuando sumo nuestro argumentario digo ? educacion para sociedades del saber compartido por el medio del acceso abierto ? y para el plan de accion ? la necessidad de un cambio de escala ?. Esta version larga les permite a las delegaciones positionarse sobre temas especificos, ya que los estados se estan dando prioridades. Asi que los tunisianos apoyna la idea del free software, ya que han creado un secretariado sobre este mismo tema ; la union europea ha expressado interes por la recomendacion sobre los cursos en acceso abierto ; la unesco quiere enfocarse con nosotros sobre la formacion de los maestros y la educacion a los medios? mas la semana que viene sobre estos asuntos? Para la proxima semana : El documento de respuesta a los amigos del presidente tiene que ser perfectionado, ya que los estados lo utilisan como base de trabajo. Estoy anadiendo un tema suplementario, al fin del ? political chapeau ?, (con las recomendaciones adecuadas en la parte ? operational ?), que trata de la creacion de una exempcion especial para educacion por lo que toca a la propriedad intellectual. La union europea ya tiene una directiva en este sentido pero muchos estados arrastran los pies ? para responder mas al enfoque de la prepcom 2, que es los mecanismos de financiacion, vamos a vernos varias veces la semana que viene con el grupo tematico sobre los mecanismos de financiacion, sin abandonar el tema de la governancia del internet. Vamos a integrar ciertas sugerencias que nos haran, para coincidir con la posicion general expressada por la sociedad civil. Por lo que toca a la gobernancia del Internet, que sera un tema mas discutido en la prepcom 3, tenemos un poco mas tiempo para prepararnos. Entonces, para sumir, os mandare una version finalizada del texto en fin de semana, para seguir discutiendola, y si es possible, traducirla en los 6 idiomas de la ONU. Este texto tendria que ser finalizado a mitad de marzo, para que cada uno se lo pueda apropriar. Para el proximo mes : -una vez el texto finalizado, tendriamos que mandarlo cada uno de nosotros a nuestras delegaciones nacionales y a los embajadores de la cumbre, para el nuesto lobbying ; -una vez el texto finalizado, tendriamos que utilisar nuestro ? lenguaje comun ? en cualquiera ocasion se nos presente. Bernard Loing esta preparando una version corta, de dos paginas no mas, para que nos sirva de documentacion para distribuir en el nombre de la coalicion. Para la prepcom 3 : Habria que considerar la possibilidad de organisar une mesa redonda, con varias personalidades invitadas, sobre uno de nuestros temas principales, sea el acceso abierto o la educacion a los medios ?.. Algunas sugerencias ? Por lo que toca a los deberes en casa, para los que no pueden ser presentes en Ginebra, ademas de las sugerencias para anadir al texto de base, creo que seria estrategico de anadir dos adjuntos al nuesto texto : uno sobre ? ejemplos edificantes ? y otro sobre ? eventos planificados y sugeridos ?. Nos permitiria saber lo que os proponeis hacer y lo que quereis que la coalicion haga, desde ahora hacia Tunes (Tunes incluido). Vuestras sugerencias son bienvenidas. Para vuestra informacion, unas fechas limites : -la proposiciones para eventos paralelas en Tunes se tienen que enviar al personal de liaison de Tunisia antes del final de Abril ; -el grupo de trabajo sobre la gobernancia del Internet (WGIG) se va a reunir de modo abierto otra vez en Abril y otra vez mas en Mayo, en Ginebra. Os mando en adjunto 3 paginas que nos tocan a nosotros (ver al final del mensage). Se trata de un fichero, que alguien (anonimo) a abierto por lo que toca a educacion. Como vereis esta casi vacio y muy incompleto. Os propongo de completarlo con nuestra posicion y de enviarlo al WGIG como nuestra contribucion. No hay fecha limite, pero creo que lo tendriamos que enviar a fines de marzo, una vez nuestro propia texto finalizado. Que os parece ? saludos desde Ginebra Divina Frau-Meigs Co-ordinacion, familia educacion, ensenanza superior y investigacion PS : en adjunto y solo en ingles, el fichero del WGIG -- http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux From saintonge at telus.net Sun Feb 20 18:36:45 2005 From: saintonge at telus.net (Ray Saintonge) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 10:36:45 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] currency POV In-Reply-To: <200502200550.47463.nsk2@wikinerds.org> References: <200502191913.45053.nsk2@wikinerds.org> <4217DB25.4080403@apotheon.com> <200502200550.47463.nsk2@wikinerds.org> Message-ID: <4218D8BD.1030001@telus.net> NSK wrote: >On Sunday 20 February 2005 02:34, Chad Perrin wrote: > > >>developed for use with US currency. I don't really think there's an >>NPOV violation going on if the "US" is omitted when representing US >> >> >Wikipedia is international, not a US site. Canadians expect to read Canadian >values when they see $. It should be US$ to maintain NPOV. > It's not a matter of NPOV at all. It's a matter of avoiding ambiguities. Canadians are far more experienced at recognizing which $ is intended by the context than people in the US who get very confused when any curency than their own is mentioned. It's quite common for US merchants, even ones near the border, to refuse Canadian currency because they don't understand it. A Canadian merchant will except the US currency, and have some idea about what to do with exchange rates. This leaves Canadians bemused, and contributes much to putting our streotypes about confused Americans on a solid footing. Ec From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 20 22:30:37 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:30:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 2 Fund Drive Report Message-ID: <20050220223038.25261.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> On Day 2 (Saturday eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not available in UTC) we made $9257.65 (USD equivalent) through PayPal (no updates available for other sources at this time). Day 2 Day 1 comparison Breakdown: USD equiv USD equiv %change PayPal AUD 326.13 256.80 247.27 + 3.85 CAD 211.78 172.00 271.58 -36.67 EUR 2354.98 3080.02 4464.75 -31.01 GBP 454.36 860.37 899.77 - 4.38 JPY 27182 257.80 269.00 - 4.16 USD 4888.47 4888.47 3424.63 +42.74 9257.65 9576.78 - 3.33 MoneyBookers no data 362.69 -100 ---------------------------------------------- Total 9257.65 9,939.47 -6.86 For the most recent grand total and other details visit http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 Some selected comments from Day 2: See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_2 "A wonderful resource, which has already become the Amazon of online encyclopedias!" by Anonymous "Wikipedia is what the internet was meant for: The building of a great information network" by Industrial Hypertext "For one of the most exciting enterprises of mankind!" by Renato Cintra "Wikipedia is my favorite site and an extreme benefit to the world" by Seth Weisberg "Wikimedia captures the true spirit of the Internet, and is priceless for that." by Michael Herring "Probably the most useful website in the world (and proof that wiki's work). Well done!" by Mr D A Whiting "Continue doing your great work, I use wikipedia as much as google" by MetaFilter "This model of information transfer will change humanity." by Anonymous "What can I say? I owe half of what I know to the Wikipedia! Keep up the good work." by Jonathan Grose Some of my favorites: "Wikipedia is dangerous. It is free, it is fair, it is informative, it is fun. Nothing beats it. Nothing even comes close." by Christopher Hutten-Czapski "much much less annoying than an NPR fundraising drive, which just makes me reach for a blank check to stuff into my ears" by Anonymous "Because knowledge may be free, but servers are not." by Anonymous "Free knowledge is even better than free porn." by Steve Guy "What did we do before Wiki?" by Anonymous Daniel Mayer, Wikimedia CFO __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From robin.shannon at gmail.com Mon Feb 21 01:56:25 2005 From: robin.shannon at gmail.com (Robin Shannon) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:56:25 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] currency POV In-Reply-To: <4218D8BD.1030001@telus.net> References: <200502191913.45053.nsk2@wikinerds.org> <4217DB25.4080403@apotheon.com> <200502200550.47463.nsk2@wikinerds.org> <4218D8BD.1030001@telus.net> Message-ID: <623d733805022017562d6a72fa@mail.gmail.com> At the risk of flaming race riots, this intrigues me. What do you mean they are confused by canadian $s. As in they do not know the exchange rate? And do all canadian merchants accept US$, or all merchants near the border? Either way that seems very strange (then again as an Australian land borders seem very strange) if this is getting too offtopic, then you can reply to me personaly. paz y amor, -[[User:The bellman]] On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 10:36:45 -0800, Ray Saintonge wrote: > It's not a matter of NPOV at all. It's a matter of avoiding > ambiguities. Canadians are far more experienced at recognizing which $ > is intended by the context than people in the US who get very confused > when any curency than their own is mentioned. It's quite common for US > merchants, even ones near the border, to refuse Canadian currency > because they don't understand it. A Canadian merchant will except the > US currency, and have some idea about what to do with exchange rates. > > This leaves Canadians bemused, and contributes much to putting our > streotypes about confused Americans on a solid footing. > > Ec -- hit me: robin.shannon.id.au jab me: saudade at jabber.zim.net.au This work is licensed under the Creative Commons Recombo Plus License. To view a copy of this license, visit http://creativecommons.org/licenses/sampling+/1.0/ From saintonge at telus.net Mon Feb 21 18:04:55 2005 From: saintonge at telus.net (Ray Saintonge) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 10:04:55 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] currency POV In-Reply-To: <623d733805022017562d6a72fa@mail.gmail.com> References: <200502191913.45053.nsk2@wikinerds.org> <4217DB25.4080403@apotheon.com> <200502200550.47463.nsk2@wikinerds.org> <4218D8BD.1030001@telus.net> <623d733805022017562d6a72fa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <421A22C7.2030703@telus.net> I was being perfectly literal. Of course now there are some malls that cater to Canadian business, and the merchants in those malls would fall in line with the mall's policy. Apart from that, and a few others who are a little more knowledgeable, rather than informing themselves of exchange rates they tend to look at Canadian currency as some kind of multicoloured play money. Canadians quickly adapt and don't bother trying to use Canadian currency there. To say that ALL Canadian merchants accept US currency would be a little absolute. One can always find exceptions to a rule. It should come as no surprise that a British study a few years ago about jokes determined that the most popular joke topic among Canadians was Americans. :-) Of course too, New Zealander comments about Australians aren't always kindly. ;-) Ec Robin Shannon wrote: >At the risk of flaming race riots, this intrigues me. What do you mean >they are confused by canadian $s. As in they do not know the exchange >rate? And do all canadian merchants accept US$, or all merchants near >the border? Either way that seems very strange (then again as an >Australian land borders seem very strange) > >if this is getting too offtopic, then you can reply to me personaly. > >paz y amor, >-[[User:The bellman]] > >On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 10:36:45 -0800, Ray Saintonge wrote: > > >>It's not a matter of NPOV at all. It's a matter of avoiding >>ambiguities. Canadians are far more experienced at recognizing which $ >>is intended by the context than people in the US who get very confused >>when any curency than their own is mentioned. It's quite common for US >>merchants, even ones near the border, to refuse Canadian currency >>because they don't understand it. A Canadian merchant will except the >>US currency, and have some idea about what to do with exchange rates. >> >>This leaves Canadians bemused, and contributes much to putting our >>streotypes about confused Americans on a solid footing. >> >>Ec >> >> > > > From maveric149 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 21 20:17:56 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:17:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 3 Fund Drive Report In-Reply-To: <20050220223038.25261.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050221201756.57468.qmail@web51609.mail.yahoo.com> On Day 3 (Sunday 20 February eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not available in UTC) we made $7881.66 (USD equivalent) through PayPal and $64 (USD equivalent) through MoneyBookers (no updates available for other sources at this time). As expected the total daily figures are dropping now that the initial excitement surrounding the start of the fund drive is subsiding. But I also expect a surge in new donations as we approach our fund drive goal (as occurred in the last fund drive). Either way, it does now appear that we will reach our goal (US$75,000) before the scheduled end of the fund drive (Friday 11 March). Day 3 Day 2 comparison Breakdown: PayPal USD equiv USD equiv %change AUD 418.59 $330.90 $257.81 28.35% CAD 294.86 $238.93 $171.61 39.23% EUR 2108.06 $2,755.66 $3,078.43 -10.49% GBP 367.21 $696.89 $862.28 -19.18% JPY 20990 $198.96 $257.66 -22.78% USD 3596.33 $3,596.33 $4,888.47 -26.43% PayPal total: $7,817.66 $9,516.25 -17.85% MoneyBookers 64 $362.69 -82.35% TOTAL $7881.66 $9,878.94 -20.22% Grand totals so far (only counting complete days) PayPal USD equiv % grand total AUD 1125.1 $889.39 3.14% CAD 934.92 $757.57 2.67% EUR 7979.65 $10,431.00 36.78% GBP 1322.28 $2,509.42 8.85% JPY 82222 $779.38 2.75% USD 12567.09 $12,567.09 44.31% PayPal total: $27,933.85 Moneybookers: $426.69 1.50% GRAND TOTAL $28,360.54 100.00% For the most recent grand total and other details visit http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 Some selected comments from Day 3: See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_3 "Congratulations on keeping up such a sucessful and valuable internet resource!" by Shaon Diwakar "Wikipedia is amazing, I'm glad to have the opportunity to donate" by Anonymous "My first time here. Thanks for improving civilization." by Anonymous "Thank you so much for this fantastic source of knowledge!" by Thibaut Devulder "This is what the internet is all about - open access to knowledge." by Jonas Smith-Strawn "One of those little big things that makes me proud of being a human. Great idea for humanity. Thank you!" by Omar Franco Guerrero "I like the way it helps freedom in education, I believe this could bring us far" by Louis-Alexandre Marceau "Wikipedia is a brilliant idea, a worthy project, and a vital resource. Thanks." by Anonymous "Thanks for running the most exciting knowledge resource online!" by John Goddard "Possibly the greatest project ever undertaken by humankind, wish I had more to give" by Anonymous "Free access to information is the key to prosperity!" by Simon Roby "Amazing! That's what you are. Keep up the good work." by Anonymous "Knowledge is power. Thankyou Wikimedia for empowering the masses - [[en:User:Ae-a]]" by Anonymous Some of my favorites: "You got me! I found your entries on Terry Pratchett and the Discworld series and just knew I had to support you!" by Deborah Hays "Wikipedia, AKA the Degree Saver! Many thanks" by Tom Graham "The legacy of Alexandria lives on" by Anonymous "Destroyer of productivity - and yet I feel worthwhile for spending so much time here." by Barry Petchesky "Because the world needs an encyclopedia with a full Pokemon section." by Anonymous "Encouraged by the open accounting. And the great product." by Matthew Elvey "Before I knew about Wikipedia, I was afraid. I thought most people in the world were jerks, bigots, or just plain bad people. Then, while looking around at wikipedia and seeing how it worked, I couldn't see how that could be true. Wikipedia just could not exist if it was true: if bad people outnumbered, outgunned, and out-shouted the good. I came to the conclusion that more people in the world were good than bad. That the chances were good that the man you bumped on the train is a good person, that the lady behind the cash register is a good person, that the bus driver is a good person. Wikipedia restored my faith in humanity, and my outlook on life has changed because of it. Thank you." by Christopher Hutten-Czapski "--wait, thank YOU!" by Ruth Temple Daniel Mayer, Wikimedia CFO __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From yann at forget-me.net Mon Feb 21 22:06:31 2005 From: yann at forget-me.net (Yann Forget) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 23:06:31 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Jimbo's speech video from Paris meeting Message-ID: <200502212306.31232.yann@forget-me.net> Hi, Thanks to Thomas from the association "Regarde ? vue" who recorded and produced it, the video from Jimbo's speech on Paris meeting in July 2004 is available at http://bleuenn.wikimedia.org:8080/paris_07_2004/ as well as the audio. It's also available on Torrent: http://bleuenn.wikimedia.org:8080/paris_07_2004/jimmy.wales.paris.07.2004.mkv.torrent and eDonkey network: ed2k://|file|[docu].[videobaseproject.net].wikipedia.jimmy.wales.paris.07.200 4{xvid+ogg}.mkv|335070246|FCAE33745C80226F9970C68447119D99|h=DCQ4Q6MWC4VVZIXH OML5B3RI5YJWORPP|/ Regards, Yann -- http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux From maveric149 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 22 08:05:52 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 00:05:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 4 Fund Drive Report In-Reply-To: <20050221201756.57468.qmail@web51609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050222080552.59110.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> On Day 4 (Monday 21 February eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not available in UTC) we made $6,586.15 (USD equivalent) through PayPal (no updates available for other sources at this time). This is a decrease of 16.44% from Day 3 but still does represent 18.34% of total funds collected so far ($35,904.88 ; only counting full days) and 8.78% of our goal ($75,000). Remarkably, the rate of donations were not too adversely affected by the downtime today. Since the donation forms were not available during a large part of the downtime, I can only guess that people remembered our PayPal account name. Donations did significantly increase soon after a Slashdot story about the downtime was released (9:28PM, EST), forcing us to move the backup donation page once the Slashdot Effect brought down the website hosting it (http://wikisearch.org ; Sorry about that Angela). Day 4 Day 3 comparison Breakdown: PayPal USD equiv USD equiv %change AUD 32 $25.30 $330.90 -92.36% CAD 785 $636.09 $238.93 166.23% EUR 1489.63 $1,947.24 $2,755.66 -29.34% GBP 332.06 $630.18 $696.89 -9.57% JPY 8501 $80.58 $198.96 59.50% USD 3266.76 $3,266.76 $3,596.33 -9.16% PayPal total: $6,586.15 $7,817.66 -15.75% MoneyBookers $64.00 -100.00% TOTAL $6,586.15 $7,881.66 -16.44% Grand totals so far (only counting complete days) PayPal USD equiv %GrandTotal AUD 1150.4 $909.39 2.53% CAD 1571.01 $1,272.99 3.55% EUR 9926.89 $12,976.44 36.14% GBP 1952.46 $3,705.39 10.32% JPY 82302.58 $780.15 2.17% USD 15833.85 $15,833.85 44.10% PayPal total: $35,478.19 Moneybookers: $426.69 1.19% GRAND TOTAL $35,904.88 100.00% % toward goal 47.87% For the most recent grand total and other details visit http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 (once everything is back up) Some selected comments from Day 4: See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_4 in about a day (hopefully I'll be able to post by then) "I love this site. Keep up the awesome work!" by Anonymous "I use Wiki - I have to pay for it !" by Immo Wetzel "You have aided me countless times in my academic pursuits in math, science, and the humanities. I can't thank you guys enough." by Laura Napolitano "Wiki is the future!" by Christoph Burschka "Wikipedia is in my opinion one of the most noble collective human endeavours underway in the world today. Thank you so much for contributing to society with your wonderful website. I love it and abide" by Matthew Barba "Wikimedia Rocks!" by Jasmeet Singh "I have always had a thirst for knowledge, and this project does more than quench it. I am happy to donate." by Matthew Gluesenkamp "Cheaper than cable" by Anonymous Some of my favorites: "Spread your Squids around the world. And use cached pages for logged in users as well. Fix those and I'll be happy as a [[clam]]. Good job so far!!!" by Rami Lehti "A small price to pay for a project like this. But get a move on with all those ambitious plans for paper versions. Most of the world doesn't have computers." by Anonymous "The Wikimedia Foundations is an acheivement of great proportions spreading the one firm truth that information is truly free. Thank you." by Siddharth Bhansali "Help preserve the sum total of human knowledge for less than the price of two Caramel Frappuccinos. Wikipedia is not only fat-free and carbohydrate-free, it will never go straight to your hips!" by Jonet Greene "Give Wiki a boost!!" by Kiminori Noma Daniel Mayer, Wikimedia CFO __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From maveric149 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 22 09:04:25 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 01:04:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 4 Fund Drive Report In-Reply-To: <20050222080552.59110.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050222090425.66347.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> There was a mistake in the grand total table I sent before. Here is the correct table (an email with all the correct tables will be resent shortly). Grand totals so far (only counting complete days) PayPal USD equiv %GrandTotal AUD 1157.1 $914.69 2.62% CAD 1719.92 $1,393.65 3.99% EUR 9469.28 $12,378.24 35.42% GBP 1654.34 $3,139.61 8.98% JPY 90723 $859.96 2.46% USD 15833.85 $15,833.85 45.31% PayPal total: $34,520.00 Moneybookers: $426.69 1.22% GRAND TOTAL $34,946.69 100.00% % toward goal 46.60% --- Daniel Mayer wrote: > On Day 4 (Monday 21 February eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not > available in UTC) we made $6,586.15 (USD equivalent) through PayPal (no > updates > available for other sources at this time). This is a decrease of 16.44% from > Day 3 but still does represent 18.34% of total funds collected so far > ($35,904.88 ; only counting full days) and 8.78% of our goal ($75,000). > > Remarkably, the rate of donations were not too adversely affected by the > downtime today. Since the donation forms were not available during a large > part > of the downtime, I can only guess that people remembered our PayPal account > name. > > Donations did significantly increase soon after a Slashdot story about the > downtime was released (9:28PM, EST), forcing us to move the backup donation > page once the Slashdot Effect brought down the website hosting it > (http://wikisearch.org ; Sorry about that Angela). > > Day 4 Day 3 comparison > Breakdown: > PayPal USD equiv USD equiv %change > AUD 32 $25.30 $330.90 -92.36% > CAD 785 $636.09 $238.93 166.23% > EUR 1489.63 $1,947.24 $2,755.66 -29.34% > GBP 332.06 $630.18 $696.89 -9.57% > JPY 8501 $80.58 $198.96 59.50% > USD 3266.76 $3,266.76 $3,596.33 -9.16% > PayPal total: $6,586.15 $7,817.66 -15.75% > > MoneyBookers > $64.00 -100.00% > > TOTAL $6,586.15 $7,881.66 -16.44% > > Grand totals so far (only counting complete days) > > PayPal USD equiv %GrandTotal > AUD 1150.4 $909.39 2.53% > CAD 1571.01 $1,272.99 3.55% > EUR 9926.89 $12,976.44 36.14% > GBP 1952.46 $3,705.39 10.32% > JPY 82302.58 $780.15 2.17% > USD 15833.85 $15,833.85 44.10% > PayPal total: $35,478.19 > > Moneybookers: > $426.69 1.19% > > GRAND TOTAL $35,904.88 100.00% > > % toward goal 47.87% > > For the most recent grand total and other details visit > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 > (once everything is back up) > > Some selected comments from Day 4: > See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_4 in about a > day (hopefully I'll be able to post by then) > > "I love this site. Keep up the awesome work!" by Anonymous > > "I use Wiki - I have to pay for it !" by Immo Wetzel > > "You have aided me countless times in my academic pursuits in math, science, > and the humanities. I can't thank you guys enough." by Laura Napolitano > > "Wiki is the future!" by Christoph Burschka > > "Wikipedia is in my opinion one of the most noble collective human endeavours > underway in the world today. Thank you so much for contributing to society > with > your wonderful website. I love it and abide" by Matthew Barba > > "Wikimedia Rocks!" by Jasmeet Singh > > "I have always had a thirst for knowledge, and this project does more than > quench it. I am happy to donate." by Matthew Gluesenkamp > > "Cheaper than cable" by Anonymous > > Some of my favorites: > > "Spread your Squids around the world. And use cached pages for logged in > users > as well. Fix those and I'll be happy as a [[clam]]. Good job so far!!!" by > Rami > Lehti > > "A small price to pay for a project like this. But get a move on with all > those > ambitious plans for paper versions. Most of the world doesn't have > computers." > by Anonymous > > "The Wikimedia Foundations is an acheivement of great proportions spreading > the > one firm truth that information is truly free. Thank you." by Siddharth > Bhansali > > "Help preserve the sum total of human knowledge for less than the price of > two > Caramel Frappuccinos. Wikipedia is not only fat-free and carbohydrate-free, > it > will never go straight to your hips!" by Jonet Greene > > "Give Wiki a boost!!" by Kiminori Noma > > > Daniel Mayer, > Wikimedia CFO > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From maveric149 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 22 09:24:57 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 01:24:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 4 Fund Drive Report (updated) In-Reply-To: <20050222080552.59110.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050222092457.87356.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> Numbers have been updated and corrected. On Day 4 (Monday 21 February eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not available in UTC) we made $6,586.15 (USD equivalent) through PayPal (no updates available for other sources at this time). This is a decrease of 16.44% from Day 3 but still does represent 18.85% of total funds collected so far ($34,946.69 ; only counting full days) and 8.78% of our goal ($75,000). Remarkably, the rate of donations were not too adversely affected by the downtime today. Since the donation forms were not available during a large part of the downtime, I can only guess that people remembered our PayPal account name. Donations did significantly increase soon after a Slashdot story about the downtime was released (9:28PM, EST), forcing us to move the backup donation page once the Slashdot Effect brought down the website hosting it (http://wikisearch.org ; Sorry about that Angela). NOTE: Pending transactions are also included in the below numbers (some of them will likely turn out to be canceled) Day 4 Day 3 comparison Breakdown: PayPal USD equiv USD equiv %change AUD 32 $25.30 $330.90 -92.36% CAD 785 $636.09 $238.93 166.23% EUR 1489.63 $1,947.24 $2,755.66 -29.34% GBP 332.06 $630.18 $696.89 -9.57% JPY 8501 $80.58 $198.96 -59.50% USD 3266.76 $3,266.76 $3,596.33 -9.16% PayPal total: $6,586.15 $7,817.66 -15.75% MoneyBookers no data $64.00 -100.00% TOTAL $6,586.15 $7,881.66 -16.44% Grand totals so far (only counting complete days) PayPal USD equiv %GrandTotal AUD 1157.1 $914.69 2.62% CAD 1719.92 $1,393.65 3.99% EUR 9469.28 $12,378.24 35.42% GBP 1654.34 $3,139.61 8.98% JPY 90723 $859.96 2.46% USD 15833.85 $15,833.85 45.31% PayPal total: $34,520.00 Moneybookers: $426.69 1.22% GRAND TOTAL $34,946.69 100.00% % toward goal 46.60% For the most recent grand total and other details visit http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 (once everything is back up) Some selected comments from Day 4: See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_4 in about a day (hopefully I'll be able to post by then) "I love this site. Keep up the awesome work!" by Anonymous "I use Wiki - I have to pay for it !" by Immo Wetzel "You have aided me countless times in my academic pursuits in math, science, and the humanities. I can't thank you guys enough." by Laura Napolitano "Wiki is the future!" by Christoph Burschka "Wikipedia is in my opinion one of the most noble collective human endeavours underway in the world today. Thank you so much for contributing to society with your wonderful website. I love it and abide" by Matthew Barba "Wikimedia Rocks!" by Jasmeet Singh "I have always had a thirst for knowledge, and this project does more than quench it. I am happy to donate." by Matthew Gluesenkamp "Cheaper than cable" by Anonymous Some of my favorites: "Spread your Squids around the world. And use cached pages for logged in users as well. Fix those and I'll be happy as a [[clam]]. Good job so far!!!" by Rami Lehti "A small price to pay for a project like this. But get a move on with all those ambitious plans for paper versions. Most of the world doesn't have computers." by Anonymous "The Wikimedia Foundations is an acheivement of great proportions spreading the one firm truth that information is truly free. Thank you." by Siddharth Bhansali "Help preserve the sum total of human knowledge for less than the price of two Caramel Frappuccinos. Wikipedia is not only fat-free and carbohydrate-free, it will never go straight to your hips!" by Jonet Greene "Give Wiki a boost!!" by Kiminori Noma Daniel Mayer, Wikimedia CFO __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From askatil at rediffmail.com Tue Feb 22 12:11:30 2005 From: askatil at rediffmail.com (Amar Singh Katil) Date: 22 Feb 2005 12:11:30 -0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] re-registration of wikimedia foundartion Message-ID: <20050222121130.23393.qmail@webmail6.rediffmail.com> ?Please confirm my list for the above foundation-1 mailing list by e mail askatil at rediffmail.com From brion at pobox.com Tue Feb 22 12:47:56 2005 From: brion at pobox.com (Brion Vibber) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 04:47:56 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Wiki Problems? In-Reply-To: <421A77A4.3060403@pobox.com> References: <20050221235821.C226F1AC0210@mail.wikimedia.org> <421A77A4.3060403@pobox.com> Message-ID: <421B29FC.4060009@pobox.com> Brion Vibber wrote: > James R. Johnson wrote: >> Is there something wrong with the wikis? I was trying to do >> some writing on ang.wikibooks.org, and ang.wiktionary.org and they don't >> work. Are they down right now, or did something else happen? > > There was some sort of power failure at the colocation facility. We're > in the process of rebooting and recovering machines. The power failure was due to circuit breakers being tripped within the colocation facility; some of our servers have redundant power supplies but *both* circuits failed, causing all our machines and the network switch to unceremoniously shut down. Whether a problem in MySQL, with our server configurations, or with the hardware (or some combination thereof), most of our database servers managed to glitch the data on disk when they went down. (Yes, we use InnoDB tables. This ain't good enough, apparently.) The good news: one server maintained a good copy, which we've been copying to the others to get things back on track. We're now serving all wikis read-only. The bad news: that copy was a bit over a day behind synchronization (it was stopped to run maintenance jobs), so in addition to slogging around 170gb of data to each DB server we have to apply the last day's update logs before we can restore read/write service. I don't know when exactly we'll have everything editable again, but it should be within 12 hours. -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 253 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20050222/3217db09/attachment-0001.pgp From pallee at brinet.com Tue Feb 22 13:34:02 2005 From: pallee at brinet.com (Fleischer) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 08:34:02 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] unsubscribe Message-ID: <000901c518e4$1fe55320$2fedc741@fleischeegrnlo> I wish to unsubscribe. Please show how. Thanks, LF From pallee at brinet.com Tue Feb 22 13:39:44 2005 From: pallee at brinet.com (Fleischer) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 08:39:44 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] currency POV References: <200502191913.45053.nsk2@wikinerds.org> <4217DB25.4080403@apotheon.com> <200502200550.47463.nsk2@wikinerds.org><4218D8BD.1030001@telus.net><623d733805022017562d6a72fa@mail.gmail.com> <421A22C7.2030703@telus.net> Message-ID: <000a01c518e4$205049f0$2fedc741@fleischeegrnlo> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Saintonge" To: "Robin Shannon" ; "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] currency POV >I was being perfectly literal. Of course now there are some malls that >cater to Canadian business, and the merchants in those malls would fall in >line with the mall's policy. Apart from that, and a few others who are a >little more knowledgeable, rather than informing themselves of exchange >rates they tend to look at Canadian currency as some kind of multicoloured >play money. Canadians quickly adapt and don't bother trying to use >Canadian currency there. > > To say that ALL Canadian merchants accept US currency would be a little > absolute. One can always find exceptions to a rule. It should come as no > surprise that a British study a few years ago about jokes determined that > the most popular joke topic among Canadians was Americans. :-) > > Of course too, New Zealander comments about Australians aren't always > kindly. ;-) > > Ec > > Robin Shannon wrote: > >>At the risk of flaming race riots, this intrigues me. What do you mean >>they are confused by canadian $s. As in they do not know the exchange >>rate? And do all canadian merchants accept US$, or all merchants near >>the border? Either way that seems very strange (then again as an >>Australian land borders seem very strange) >> >>if this is getting too offtopic, then you can reply to me personaly. >> >>paz y amor, >>-[[User:The bellman]] >> >>On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 10:36:45 -0800, Ray Saintonge >>wrote: >> >>>It's not a matter of NPOV at all. It's a matter of avoiding >>>ambiguities. Canadians are far more experienced at recognizing which $ >>>is intended by the context than people in the US who get very confused >>>when any curency than their own is mentioned. It's quite common for US >>>merchants, even ones near the border, to refuse Canadian currency >>>because they don't understand it. A Canadian merchant will except the >>>US currency, and have some idea about what to do with exchange rates. >>> >>>This leaves Canadians bemused, and contributes much to putting our >>>streotypes about confused Americans on a solid footing. >>> >>>Ec >>> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > > From brion at pobox.com Tue Feb 22 13:58:40 2005 From: brion at pobox.com (Brion Vibber) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 05:58:40 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] unsubscribe In-Reply-To: <000901c518e4$1fe55320$2fedc741@fleischeegrnlo> References: <000901c518e4$1fe55320$2fedc741@fleischeegrnlo> Message-ID: <421B3A90.1030505@pobox.com> Fleischer wrote: > I wish to unsubscribe. Please show how. > Thanks, > LF > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l I've unsubscribed you. For future reference, you can unsubscribe yourself or suspend mail delivery by logging in at the URL listed in the footer of every message send through the list. (Reproduced above.) -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 253 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20050222/b194dea6/attachment-0001.pgp From aphaia at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 14:12:13 2005 From: aphaia at gmail.com (Aphaia) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 23:12:13 +0900 Subject: For improvement of JA situation (Re: [Foundation-l] And blocked again) In-Reply-To: <42152EA1.5010607@vankalken.net> References: <4210B216.2090507@vankalken.net> <20050215205146.GR21722@thingy.apana.org.au> <35be2a7105021515487c713241@mail.gmail.com> <35be2a71050216162545ca58d0@mail.gmail.com> <453b6e50502170642258e2a4d@mail.gmail.com> <453b6e505021706524d69aba9@mail.gmail.com> <42152EA1.5010607@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <35be2a7105022206124bb532ee@mail.gmail.com> Thank you Delphine and Walter for your feedback. After a half year attempt to recruit new admin candidates, here I try to summarize the situation. In my views the current situation on JAWP is: 1. The JA WP is suffered by shortage of sysops. 1a. some users don't recognize the situation, because they don't recognize the situation closely. 1b. other (or the majority in my view) know the shortage but don't think themselves as possible sysop candidate. 1c. except some users, including me (I had contacts over 20 users), almost no one recommended new candidates or urge them to request for sysoship. 2. Some users, not in a small number, misunderstand sysopship of our project. 2a. Some think it a sort of authority or a kind of honour. 2b. Some users who don't know how to work sysop previledges or who are afraid not to understand policies and guideline. Shortly they underestimate themselves. 2c. Some thinks sysops should do so-and-so activities which need no sysop previledges (like casting a Welcome message, voting on VfD, archiving talk discussions or VP ...). Perhaps it can be included to a phenomenon on #3, but I think it is a sort of misunderstanding what sysops are. 3. Misunderstanding around sysopship causes phenomena: like misunderstanding as if sysopship grants a sort of authority, self-descouragement to request for sysopship, gossipng, power conflicts (in my opinion JAWP has such conflict at least twice) and so on. 4. The cultural features of Japanese (because most of Ja contributors are Japanese in birth) , for example lack of trustness but strong demand for assurance (a Japanese sociologist pointed it out in his papter), gossiping ouf of wiki, strong afraid to make a failure or a keen sense avoiding a "shame"; fear to reject of request for sysopship (it could be a shame for him): Point 4 seems to be the hardest points to alter, so I try to think how other points could be changed. For 1c, I expect more users, particular current sysops recommend good users as sysop candidates. An user who I asked him to request for sysopship replied me a recommendation from only one person was not enough make him request for sysopship. Another guy who was already a sysop urged him, iirc, and now the user is a sysop on JAWP. Offering from plural persons would be effective for other people, I think. Since today I urged already over 20 people to request for sysopship. I hope others follow me. Point 3. is hardly deatl with by itself. Misunderstanding established for a long time - for two years - couldn't be easliy resolved. I expect here each user point out such misunderstanding by occasions. Particularly a sysop have misunderstandings like "a sysop can be allowed authoritative by his nature" or "a sysop without using any sysop previledge is still a good sysop". I suspect on JA WP even some sysops have such thoughts.(In my parts I believe in a good sysop should be an active users and use his previledge appropriately by occasion. ) And one of most effective ways to resolve Pt.3, is an appropriate information on what sysop preveledges are. That is, already Notafish showed us an example. I think such close explanations would be helpful not only avoiding misunderstanding but encouraging potential candidates: like Walter said on JAWP, there is no specially difficulties on doing sysop tasks. But it is sometimes unclear even for a newly created sysops in my experience. (Not every sysop knows what is MediaWiki messages, how to merge two files and so on) To encourage potential candidates, I think also DeWP provides us with an interestign attempt. There is an "official trainee" of Wikipedia (Wikipedia-azubi) ;-) A user requested for this position from his own idea. Under some experienced Wikipedians' instruciton, he is learning how to edit articles, make a discussion, deal with trolls and so on.... He said now he writes a coursebook to be a good Wikipedian by himself. On a communith which the shortage of sysops suffers possibly need such attempt to involve more persons into administrative issues, like a trainee course and/or guidebook. -- Aphaia (at) gmail (dot) com From brion at pobox.com Tue Feb 22 23:20:54 2005 From: brion at pobox.com (Brion Vibber) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:20:54 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] Wiki Problems? In-Reply-To: <421B77A9.2070201@pobox.com> References: <20050221235821.C226F1AC0210@mail.wikimedia.org> <421A77A4.3060403@pobox.com> <421B29FC.4060009@pobox.com> <20050222174953.GA27612@topjaklont.student.utwente.nl> <421B77A9.2070201@pobox.com> Message-ID: <421BBE56.8040804@pobox.com> Brion Vibber wrote: > Update logs are still replaying, but we're up to 42 minutes prior to the > crash on one machine and still going. I don't expect problems. With two servers fully recovered we've got the wikis up for read-write access; editing is open. Total time from crash to restoring edit service was about 24 hours, 10 minutes. Sigh. Some special pages (including contribs and watchlist) are off for the moment to reduce server load until we have more machines up. Some things remain a little wonky. -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 253 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20050222/3dd2aa65/attachment-0001.pgp From maveric149 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 23 05:10:10 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 21:10:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 4 Fund Drive Report (updated) In-Reply-To: <20050222092457.87356.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050223051010.35604.qmail@web51601.mail.yahoo.com> Sorry folks - one more update on the way. I synced exchange rate figures between the two tables and fixed a more embarrassing error; in my haste to get this report out I included *gross* instead of net figures. Opps. :) -- mav --- Daniel Mayer wrote: > Numbers have been updated and corrected. > > On Day 4 (Monday 21 February eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not > available in UTC) we made $6,586.15 (USD equivalent) through PayPal (no > updates > available for other sources at this time). This is a decrease of 16.44% from > Day 3 but still does represent 18.85% of total funds collected so far > ($34,946.69 ; only counting full days) and 8.78% of our goal ($75,000). > > Remarkably, the rate of donations were not too adversely affected by the > downtime today. Since the donation forms were not available during a large > part > of the downtime, I can only guess that people remembered our PayPal account > name. > > Donations did significantly increase soon after a Slashdot story about the > downtime was released (9:28PM, EST), forcing us to move the backup donation > page once the Slashdot Effect brought down the website hosting it > (http://wikisearch.org ; Sorry about that Angela). > > NOTE: Pending transactions are also included in the below numbers (some of > them > will likely turn out to be canceled) > > Day 4 Day 3 comparison > Breakdown: > PayPal USD equiv USD equiv %change > AUD 32 $25.30 $330.90 -92.36% > CAD 785 $636.09 $238.93 166.23% > EUR 1489.63 $1,947.24 $2,755.66 -29.34% > GBP 332.06 $630.18 $696.89 -9.57% > JPY 8501 $80.58 $198.96 -59.50% > USD 3266.76 $3,266.76 $3,596.33 -9.16% > PayPal total: $6,586.15 $7,817.66 -15.75% > > MoneyBookers > no data $64.00 -100.00% > > TOTAL $6,586.15 $7,881.66 -16.44% > > > Grand totals so far (only counting complete days) > > PayPal USD equiv %GrandTotal > AUD 1157.1 $914.69 2.62% > CAD 1719.92 $1,393.65 3.99% > EUR 9469.28 $12,378.24 35.42% > GBP 1654.34 $3,139.61 8.98% > JPY 90723 $859.96 2.46% > USD 15833.85 $15,833.85 45.31% > PayPal total: $34,520.00 > > Moneybookers: > $426.69 1.22% > > GRAND TOTAL $34,946.69 100.00% > > % toward goal 46.60% > > > For the most recent grand total and other details visit > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 > (once everything is back up) > > Some selected comments from Day 4: > See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_4 in about a > day (hopefully I'll be able to post by then) > > "I love this site. Keep up the awesome work!" by Anonymous > > "I use Wiki - I have to pay for it !" by Immo Wetzel > > "You have aided me countless times in my academic pursuits in math, science, > and the humanities. I can't thank you guys enough." by Laura Napolitano > > "Wiki is the future!" by Christoph Burschka > > "Wikipedia is in my opinion one of the most noble collective human endeavours > underway in the world today. Thank you so much for contributing to society > with > your wonderful website. I love it and abide" by Matthew Barba > > "Wikimedia Rocks!" by Jasmeet Singh > > "I have always had a thirst for knowledge, and this project does more than > quench it. I am happy to donate." by Matthew Gluesenkamp > > "Cheaper than cable" by Anonymous > > Some of my favorites: > > "Spread your Squids around the world. And use cached pages for logged in > users > as well. Fix those and I'll be happy as a [[clam]]. Good job so far!!!" by > Rami > Lehti > > "A small price to pay for a project like this. But get a move on with all > those > ambitious plans for paper versions. Most of the world doesn't have > computers." > by Anonymous > > "The Wikimedia Foundations is an acheivement of great proportions spreading > the > one firm truth that information is truly free. Thank you." by Siddharth > Bhansali > > "Help preserve the sum total of human knowledge for less than the price of > two > Caramel Frappuccinos. Wikipedia is not only fat-free and carbohydrate-free, > it > will never go straight to your hips!" by Jonet Greene > > "Give Wiki a boost!!" by Kiminori Noma > > > Daniel Mayer, > Wikimedia CFO > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! > http://my.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From maveric149 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 23 05:39:51 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 21:39:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 4 Fund Drive Report (final update) Message-ID: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Numbers have been updated and corrected. On Day 4 (Monday 21 February eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not available in UTC) we made $6,287.52 (USD equivalent) through PayPal (no updates available for other sources at this time). This is a decrease of -20.23% from Day 3 but still does represent 18.15% of total funds collected so far ($34,648.06 ; only counting full days) and 8.38% of our goal ($75,000). Remarkably, the rate of donations were not too adversely affected by the downtime on Monday. Since the donation forms were not available during a large part of the downtime, I can only guess that people remembered our PayPal account name. Donations did significantly increase soon after a Slashdot story about the downtime was released (9:28PM, EST on Monday), forcing us to move the backup donation page once the Slashdot Effect brought down the website hosting it (http://wikisearch.org ; Sorry about that Angela). NOTE: Pending transactions are also included in the below numbers (some of them will likely turn out to be canceled) Day 4 Day 3 comparison Breakdown: PayPal USD equiv USD equiv %change AUD 29.68 $23.46 $330.90 -92.91% CAD 750.35 $608.01 $238.93 154.48% EUR 1410.77 $1,844.16 $2,755.66 -33.08% GBP 315.19 $598.17 $696.89 -14.17% JPY 8082 $76.61 $198.96 -61.50% USD 3137.11 $3,137.11 $3,596.33 -12.77% PayPal total: $6,287.52 $7,817.66 -19.57% MoneyBookers no data $64.00 -100.00% TOTAL $6,287.52 $7,881.66 -20.23% Grand totals so far (only counting complete days) PayPal USD equiv %GrandTotal AUD 1154.78 $912.85 2.63% CAD 1685.27 $1,365.57 3.94% EUR 9390.42 $12,275.16 35.43% GBP 1637.47 $3,107.59 8.97% JPY 90304 $855.99 2.47% USD 15704.20 $15,704.20 45.32% PayPal total: $34,221.37 Moneybookers: $426.69 1.23% GRAND TOTAL $34,648.06 100.00% % toward goal 46.20% For the most recent grand total and other details visit http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 Some selected comments from Day 4: See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_4 "I use Wiki - I have to pay for it !" by Immo Wetzel "You have aided me countless times in my academic pursuits in math, science, and the humanities. I can't thank you guys enough." by Laura Napolitano "Wiki is the future!" by Christoph Burschka "Wikipedia is in my opinion one of the most noble collective human endeavours underway in the world today. Thank you so much for contributing to society with your wonderful website. I love it and abide" by Matthew Barba "Wikimedia Rocks!" by Jasmeet Singh "I have always had a thirst for knowledge, and this project does more than quench it. I am happy to donate." by Matthew Gluesenkamp "Cheaper than cable" by Anonymous Some of my favorites: "Spread your Squids around the world. And use cached pages for logged in users as well. Fix those and I'll be happy as a [[clam]]. Good job so far!!!" by Rami Lehti "A small price to pay for a project like this. But get a move on with all those ambitious plans for paper versions. Most of the world doesn't have computers." by Anonymous "The Wikimedia Foundations is an acheivement of great proportions spreading the one firm truth that information is truly free. Thank you." by Siddharth Bhansali "Help preserve the sum total of human knowledge for less than the price of two Caramel Frappuccinos. Wikipedia is not only fat-free and carbohydrate-free, it will never go straight to your hips!" by Jonet Greene "Give Wiki a boost!!" by Kiminori Noma Daniel Mayer, Wikimedia CFO __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From christiaan at last-straw.net Wed Feb 23 14:59:46 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 14:59:46 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'm not sure if this is the correct place to post this message but I was unable to find anywhere more suitable. How are disputes dealt with on Wikimedia meta? Unfortunately I've been involved in an edit war. I've been looking for another way to resolve it but wasn't able to find anything on Wikimedia meta. After many requests to refrain from doing so, and to discuss on talk page instead, User:GerardM has continued to post discussion, personal opinions and Wikipedia NPOV tags to [[meta:End-user image suppression]]. He has also reverted efforts to clarify the purpose of the page. i.e. it is a page for exploring the ins and outs of how end-user image suppression might be implemented, _if_ it were ever called upon. From the language in his posts it appears he thinks he is on some type of crusade to save the world from [[meta:End-user image suppression]]. Christiaan From walter at vankalken.net Wed Feb 23 15:30:14 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:30:14 +0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <421CA186.8070405@vankalken.net> I think that Gerard's paragraph that he added and you keep removing is highlighting the negative side of you idea. Why isn't he allowed to put that there? Walter van Kalken From nknight at runawaynet.com Wed Feb 23 15:41:18 2005 From: nknight at runawaynet.com (Nicholas Knight) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:41:18 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421CA186.8070405@vankalken.net> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <421CA186.8070405@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <421CA41E.5000009@runawaynet.com> Walter van Kalken wrote: > I think that Gerard's paragraph that he added and you keep removing is > highlighting the negative side of you idea. Why isn't he allowed to put > that there? The page is about implementation details. Philisophical discussion of whether or not it should be implemented are off-topic. From christiaan at last-straw.net Wed Feb 23 16:22:44 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:22:44 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421CA186.8070405@vankalken.net> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <421CA186.8070405@vankalken.net> Message-ID: Walter van Kalken wrote: > I think that Gerard's paragraph that he added and you keep removing is > highlighting the negative side of you idea. Why isn't he allowed to > put that there? As Nicholas has pointed out this page is for exploring the implementation of the idea; the opening paragraph clarifies this. There are many places where the merits of it are being and have been discussed throughout the Wikimedia community (including the talk page of this article). If we let the article become bogged down with discussion and POV about the merits of the idea then it would become an article about "whether or not it should be done", instead of "how could be done" (which is the stated purpose of the article!). But it's not simply that, Gerard has been wholly reluctant to raise specific issues instead using a slash and burn policy complete with emotional language, straw man arguments and inappropriate posting of Wikipedia NPOV tags. Christiaan From walter at vankalken.net Wed Feb 23 16:32:30 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 23:32:30 +0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <421CA186.8070405@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <421CB01E.5010304@vankalken.net> Well I kinda understand his reaction. Have you ever lived in a country were they block 30.000 websites and growing? Where the government is actually implying a policy of what its inhabitants are "allowed" to see? Why should we make it any easier for these kind of governments? Walter van Kalken From gerard.meijssen at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 16:36:19 2005 From: gerard.meijssen at gmail.com (Gerard Meijssen) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:36:19 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <421CB103.1000107@gmail.com> Hoi, The article [[meta:End-user content suppression]] was recently renamed to [[meta:End-user image suppression]]. It is an article that descibes how we should tag our content eh images so that people can choose to have content presented to them or not. The proposers of this idea assume that mechanism for censorship will only be triggered by individuals and, that it is to prevent them from coming across content they may find disturbing. They fail to answer several questions: * Who is going to add these tags * What is the basis for tagging content. What to be done when someone comes along who wants even more tagging or the tagging of different categories. * How do you prevent organisations or countries from censoring our content using our own mechanism * How do you ensure that the integrity of our NPOV content is maintained if people will not see the whole of our content * What argument do you have against tagging content if you state that this is only about images In the article that is now called [[meta:End-user image suppression]] I have added a tag to say that the subject is controversial and, the reasons why it is controversial. This is not appreciated and resulted in a slash and burn reaction. Apparantly you are not allowed to say that "when it walks like a duck an it talks like a duck, it must be a duck". I am afraid that censorship is alive and well. The proposers of this policy say that it is only technical. I beg to differ. Censure is what I do not want for our content. Thanks, GerardM Christiaan Briggs wrote: > I'm not sure if this is the correct place to post this message but I > was unable to find anywhere more suitable. How are disputes dealt with > on Wikimedia meta? Unfortunately I've been involved in an edit war. > I've been looking for another way to resolve it but wasn't able to > find anything on Wikimedia meta. > > After many requests to refrain from doing so, and to discuss on talk > page instead, User:GerardM has continued to post discussion, personal > opinions and Wikipedia NPOV tags to [[meta:End-user image > suppression]]. He has also reverted efforts to clarify the purpose of > the page. i.e. it is a page for exploring the ins and outs of how > end-user image suppression might be implemented, _if_ it were ever > called upon. From the language in his posts it appears he thinks he is > on some type of crusade to save the world from [[meta:End-user image > suppression]]. > > Christiaan > > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > From christiaan at last-straw.net Wed Feb 23 17:01:11 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:01:11 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421CB01E.5010304@vankalken.net> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <421CA186.8070405@vankalken.net> <421CB01E.5010304@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <0475bb96eafc36f1c86ef9b4b0563222@last-straw.net> Walter van Kalken wrote: > Well I kinda understand his reaction. Have you ever lived in a country > were they block 30.000 websites and growing? Where the government is > actually implying a policy of what its inhabitants are "allowed" to > see? Why should we make it any easier for these kind of governments? You didn't respond to any of my points. And the point you make above is yet another straw man. If governments want to block or filter Wikipedia there's nothing stopping them from doing that right now. What this proposal does is provide users with a choice about which images they are presented with when surfing Wikimedia projects. Christiaan From walter at vankalken.net Wed Feb 23 17:12:55 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 00:12:55 +0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <0475bb96eafc36f1c86ef9b4b0563222@last-straw.net> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <421CA186.8070405@vankalken.net> <421CB01E.5010304@vankalke n.net> <0475bb96eafc36f1c86ef9b4b0563222@last-straw.net> Message-ID: <421CB997.7070600@vankalken.net> > You didn't respond to any of my points. And the point you make above > is yet another straw man. If governments want to block or filter > Wikipedia there's nothing stopping them from doing that right now. > What this proposal does is provide users with a choice about which > images they are presented with when surfing Wikimedia projects. And what if their providers/governments make the choice for them, Thers is no choice for them left. Also who decides on what is inappropriate? I much better like another solution. Put the shocking pictures on a subpage to the article instead of electronically tagging them. There is nothing stopping anybody from blocking or filtering wikipedia right now no ..... I do not see one reason why we should give them the tools to give them an excuse to do so and make it easier for them. Now they might not filter becuase it is to much of a pain for them. But when we will tag the things for them we only make it easier for them to think hey yes we could do that! I see no reason to help them or give them that idea. Walter van Kalken From christiaan at last-straw.net Wed Feb 23 17:16:35 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:16:35 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421CB103.1000107@gmail.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <421CB103.1000107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5c624a8a6e8200649b2e9b73cd418a85@last-straw.net> I really didn't come here to debate this issue. I came here looking for dispute resolution procedures. Gerard Meijssen wrote: > The proposers of this idea assume that mechanism for censorship will > only be triggered by individuals No, actually they don't. This is clearly covered in the article and in discussions I have already had with you on [[Talk:End-user image suppression]]. > They fail to answer several questions: > * Who is going to add these tags From the article: Tagging images would simply involve ensuring that [[potentially offensive images]] have all been given [[categories]] as per normal procedures. > * What is the basis for tagging content. What to be done when someone > comes along who wants even more tagging or the tagging of different > categories. From the article: Tagging images would simply involve ensuring that [[potentially offensive images]] have all been given [[categories]] as per normal procedures. > * How do you prevent organisations or countries from censoring our > content using our own mechanism The mechanism is categorisation, which we already a have, so you don't, not now not ever. > * How do you ensure that the integrity of our NPOV content is > maintained if people will not see the whole of our content It is up to the user what they see and what they don't. This proposal actually ensures that images are not completely removed from the servers or suppressed by default as is already happening now. > * What argument do you have against tagging content if you state that > this is only about images As noted on [[Talk:Potentially offensive images]] this scheme is a reaction to events that have been taking place regarding controversial images on Wikipedia. Images are immediate; there is no other way to avoid them when surfing to a page other than to have them turned off or hidden. In this sense they a kind of push media. > Censure is what I do not want for our content. Self-censorship is already taking place on Wikipedia. This scheme would help put an end to self-censorship. Christiaan From christiaan at last-straw.net Wed Feb 23 17:21:53 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:21:53 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421CB997.7070600@vankalken.net> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <421CA186.8070405@vankalken.net> <421CB01E.5010304@vankalke n.net> <0475bb96eafc36f1c86ef9b4b0563222@last-straw.net> <421CB997.7070600@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <17e216a3aa882e36901c7b32070c32c3@last-straw.net> Please I'd like to avoid getting into a big debate here on the foundation mailing list. I just want to know what dispute procedures there are on meta. Walter van Kalken wrote: >> You didn't respond to any of my points. And the point you make above >> is yet another straw man. If governments want to block or filter >> Wikipedia there's nothing stopping them from doing that right now. >> What this proposal does is provide users with a choice about which >> images they are presented with when surfing Wikimedia projects. > > And what if their providers/governments make the choice for them, > Thers is no choice for them left. As I said governments and providers can do this already. > Also who decides on what is inappropriate? I much better like another > solution. Put the shocking pictures on a subpage to the article > instead of electronically tagging them. Then by all means go start a page on meta that sets out the implementation of such an idea. I may not agree but I won't troll the page that seeks to set out how to do it. > There is nothing stopping anybody from blocking or filtering wikipedia > right now no ..... I do not see one reason why we should give them the > tools to give them an excuse to do so and make it easier for them. Now > they might not filter becuase it is to much of a pain for them. But > when we will tag the things for them we only make it easier for them > to think hey yes we could do that! I see no reason to help them or > give them that idea. We already tag, it's also called categorisation. This scheme simply asks that all [[potentially offensive images]] are categorised before being said to be implemented. Christiaan From gerard.meijssen at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 17:22:21 2005 From: gerard.meijssen at gmail.com (Gerard Meijssen) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:22:21 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <0475bb96eafc36f1c86ef9b4b0563222@last-straw.net> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <421CA186.8070405@vankalken.net> <421CB01E.5010304@vankalken.net> <0475bb96eafc36f1c86ef9b4b0563222@last-straw.net> Message-ID: <421CBBCD.6000800@gmail.com> Hoi, I am sorry to say that this person is wearing blinkers. He only sees what he wants to see and all othere considerations are not about "what is being discussed". Yes, govennments can block wikipedia but that is an all or nothing operation. With the censoring tags in place, they can say partially block our content, and that is what the censoring tags are there for. The problem as I see it is that this has not been considered because it is detrimental to "the cause". By saying that it provides the user with a choise, the responsibiltiy for colletoral damage is being denied. This is what is not being discussed, this is what is not considered. And everything else is a strawman's argument. Thank God, I still can say what I want to say. Thank God, that I can fight for what I think is important. Me not believing in a God is immaterial to the sentiment.. :) Thanks, GerardM Christiaan Briggs wrote: > Walter van Kalken wrote: > >> Well I kinda understand his reaction. Have you ever lived in a >> country were they block 30.000 websites and growing? Where the >> government is actually implying a policy of what its inhabitants are >> "allowed" to see? Why should we make it any easier for these kind of >> governments? > > > You didn't respond to any of my points. And the point you make above > is yet another straw man. If governments want to block or filter > Wikipedia there's nothing stopping them from doing that right now. > What this proposal does is provide users with a choice about which > images they are presented with when surfing Wikimedia projects. > > Christiaan > > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > From christiaan at last-straw.net Wed Feb 23 17:26:28 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:26:28 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421CBBCD.6000800@gmail.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <421CA186.8070405@vankalken.net> <421CB01E.5010304@vankalken.net> <0475bb96eafc36f1c86ef9b4b0563222@last-straw.net> <421CBBCD.6000800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8d7c98ff22beabd80b8885cf39a5c6c9@last-straw.net> Gerard Meijssen wrote: > I am sorry to say that this person is wearing blinkers. He only sees > what he wants to see and all othere considerations are not about "what > is being discussed". Yes, govennments can block wikipedia but that is > an all or nothing operation. With the censoring tags in place, they > can say partially block our content, and that is what the censoring > tags are there for. Actually we have a name for these tags on Wikimedia projects. They're called categories. Christiaan From richholton at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 17:34:44 2005 From: richholton at gmail.com (Richard Holton) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:34:44 -0600 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421CB103.1000107@gmail.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <421CB103.1000107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4a37983b05022309345845317f@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:36:19 +0100, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > Hoi, > The article [[meta:End-user content suppression]] was recently renamed > to [[meta:End-user image suppression]]. It is an article that descibes > how we should tag our content eh images so that people can choose to > have content presented to them or not. The proposers of this idea assume > that mechanism for censorship will only be triggered by individuals and, > that it is to prevent them from coming across content they may find > disturbing. They fail to answer several questions: The purpose of the page is to discuss the implementation (though I would suggest yet another name change to make this clear)., It is unrealistic to expect at this stage that all questions would be answered. However, I can give you my personal answers to these questions: > * Who is going to add these tags The tags would be normal [[category:xxx]] tags. Such tags are already being added, and would continue to be added by those who are interested in adding them. Certainly not everyone would be required to participate, but I would expect that those who are opposed to censorship would not actively remove these tags -- since that would in fact be a form of censorship. > * What is the basis for tagging content. What to be done when someone > comes along who wants even more tagging or the tagging of different > categories. The basis for tagging would be whatever basis people want to tag them. As I see it, useful tags for images would include tags based on content: clowns, temples, butterflies, sexual positions, etc. Nothing needs to be done when someone wants to add even more tagging of different categories. If a category in inherently POV (excellent bands, disgusting people, offensive image) those categories would fall under the same axe as any other POV. > * How do you prevent organisations or countries from censoring our > content using our own mechanism How do we prevent this from happening now? We cannot directly control the actions of any government or organization. Mechanism for blocking specific sites/pages are common. I don't really see the issue here. > * How do you ensure that the integrity of our NPOV content is maintained > if people will not see the whole of our content The intent of this system is not to make viewing of any content impossible. Only to require some additional intentional action to view it. People can currently engage in POV disputes without having read the content, but their input is not particularly relevant. > * What argument do you have against tagging content if you state that > this is only about images I'm not certain I understand the question. Is the concern that this same mechanism could be used to filter certain articles? This would require software specifically written to allow that, but I don't particularly see any issue is allowing someone to so restrict his or her own choices. Google allows you to have "safe search" on or off. What's the issue? > In the article that is now called [[meta:End-user image suppression]] I > have added a tag to say that the subject is controversial and, the > reasons why it is controversial. This is not appreciated and resulted in > a slash and burn reaction. Apparantly you are not allowed to say that > "when it walks like a duck an it talks like a duck, it must be a duck". > I am afraid that censorship is alive and well. > Indeed! Why don't you start another article on Meta discussing the merits of free speech / censorship? What is preventing you? Censorship? Freedom of speech does not allow someone to say whatever they want whenever they want. > The proposers of this policy say that it is only technical. I beg to > differ. Censure is what I do not want for our content. > I'm not aware that this has reached the level of a proposed policy. As I've attempted to describe above, no content would be censored. You either have a misunderstood the nature of what is being discussed, or you have a very different understanding of censorship than I have.. -Rich Holton en.wikipedia:User:Rholton From gerard.meijssen at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 17:53:08 2005 From: gerard.meijssen at gmail.com (Gerard Meijssen) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:53:08 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <8d7c98ff22beabd80b8885cf39a5c6c9@last-straw.net> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <421CA186.8070405@vankalken.net> <421CB01E.5010304@vankalken.net> <0475bb96eafc36f1c86ef9b4b0563222@last-straw.net> <421CBBCD.6000800@gmail.com> <8d7c98ff22beabd80b8885cf39a5c6c9@last-straw.net> Message-ID: <421CC304.4060400@gmail.com> Christiaan Briggs wrote: > Gerard Meijssen wrote: > >> I am sorry to say that this person is wearing blinkers. He only sees >> what he wants to see and all othere considerations are not about >> "what is being discussed". Yes, govennments can block wikipedia but >> that is an all or nothing operation. With the censoring tags in >> place, they can say partially block our content, and that is what the >> censoring tags are there for. > > > Actually we have a name for these tags on Wikimedia projects. They're > called categories. > > Christiaan So basically you provide me with THE argument to get rid of categories.. Actually, you are wrong. pictures are not categorised and we do not have software to prevent pictures from being seen. The proposal is to have our mediawiki software react to specific tags. When you program for pictures, you can also program for text because in essence there is no difference. I have never liked categories anyway, they only provide people the opportunity to, well categorise, nothing creative about it and much opportunity to get it wrong. When you want your tagging, you do not take into account that it infringes on people's rights to represent their material in a certain way. Basically censorship is bad, it is very much POV and it prevents people from learning about subjects in the fullest sense of the word. When you do not want to see sex do not go to natasha.com (or whatever they are called) When you want to learn about sex, go to Wikipedia, it explains what a vagina is and what parts are where. Really instructive, I would not like to have people not know when they look it up. Thanks, Gerard From andreengels at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 18:02:32 2005 From: andreengels at gmail.com (Andre Engels) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 19:02:32 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421CA41E.5000009@runawaynet.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <421CA186.8070405@vankalken.net> <421CA41E.5000009@runawaynet.com> Message-ID: <6faf39c9050223100215da4f2e@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:41:18 -0800, Nicholas Knight wrote: > The page is about implementation details. Philisophical discussion of > whether or not it should be implemented are off-topic. I fundamentally disagree with that. If we are not going to do it, discussing how we are going to do it is useless. If we are going to do it, objections should be allowed to be raised. Also, stating the objections to a given idea might well aid in improving it by showing the places where it needs improvement. Either the people writing this page want to include it, or they don't. If they don't want to include it, they should stop wasting their and other people's time on it. If they do want to include it, they should be ready to discuss its inclusion. Andre Engels From rowan.collins at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 18:07:32 2005 From: rowan.collins at gmail.com (Rowan Collins) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:07:32 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> Christiaan, Gerard, et al: * I have not previously been involved in any of the discussions over image suppression / self-censorship / content choice, and do not, at present intend to state any particular opinion about this issue. * I don't know what, if any, formal conflict resolution procedures there are on meta, but since you've asked here, I thought I would give some personal opinions about the conflict you are having. I would stress that I have no set opinion on this debate, so although these are my opinions, I hope they are relatively unbiased. * Firstly, I do not consider Gerard's actions to be "trolling", but nor do I consider Christiaan to be "blinkered". This is a conflict of understanding, pure and simple, regarding the purpose of a particular page. This seems to be something of a problem on meta, because it is so unstructured, and lacks a coherent community of its own, so people vary greatly in how they perceive it. (I've been involved in similarly heated debates over pages to do with single login proposals.) * Secondly, I don't think the use of a "disputed tag" is appropriate here: meta has no NPOV policy, or any equivalent, and simply linking to that of the English Wikipedia is irrelevant. Meta is a very different environment, and meta pages are more closely related to those of traditional wikis, in that they are a kind of on-going refactored discussion, rather than content aimed at presentation. Indeed, it's debatable whether many of them should have separate "Talk:" pages at all - a traditional Wiki simply refactors discussion ["ThreadMode"] into structured content ["DocumentMode"] as necessary. [Note that there is an exception in terms of "documentation" pages, but those are increasingly confined to the Help: namespace] In other words, disputed or disputable content is the norm, not the exception. * Thirdly, I do think it is important for those creating a page with a particular purpose in mind to not only state what is on-topic, but provide an outlet for what is off-topic. If "philosophical" discussion about the proposal is taking place elsewhere, it should be referenced clearly. In other words, the introduction should read something like "This page discusses technical implications of implementing such a scheme; for discussion of whether it would be desirable, see: ..." If there is no page appropriate to end that sentence, it should be created, if only by adding a heading to the existing page under which the discussion can take place. It seems to me that there *is* a lot of existint discussion about this, so it ought to be possible for a central point to be found or created. [References to appropriate parts of the mailing list archives could also be added.] * In summary: *in my opinion* it is perfectly OK for a page on meta to exist that discusses the technical measures needed for something that may never happen; however, it is also OK for people to discuss the necessity and/or desirability of the feature. Therefore, if it seems appropriate to separate the two, they should be adequately cross-referenced, so that it is clear to anyone entering the discussion how they relate. I hope this helps, and I hope it doesn't read too much like legalese - I've been reading documents from my local Borough Council all afternoon... -- Rowan Collins BSc [IMSoP] From christiaan at last-straw.net Wed Feb 23 18:10:02 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:10:02 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <6faf39c9050223100215da4f2e@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <421CA186.8070405@vankalken.net> <421CA41E.5000009@runawaynet.com> <6faf39c9050223100215da4f2e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3302da97815534d609434c90cdafc0b3@last-straw.net> Andre Engels wrote: > Nicholas Knight wrote: > >> The page is about implementation details. Philisophical discussion of >> whether or not it should be implemented are off-topic. > > I fundamentally disagree with that. If we are not going to do it, > discussing how we are going to do it is useless. If we are going to do > it, objections should be allowed to be raised. Also, stating the > objections to a given idea might well aid in improving it by showing > the places where it needs improvement. There is absolutely nothing at all stopping you from raising objections. Just raise them in the appropriate place, not on the page where we are trying to describe _how_ it might be implemented. Christiaan From christiaan at last-straw.net Wed Feb 23 18:12:09 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:12:09 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421CC304.4060400@gmail.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <421CA186.8070405@vankalken.net> <421CB01E.5010304@vankalken.net> <0475bb96eafc36f1c86ef9b4b0563222@last-straw.net> <421CBBCD.6000800@gmail.com> <8d7c98ff22beabd80b8885cf39a5c6c9@last-straw.net> <421CC304.4060400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <023acc7e7408402e575944c71e83022f@last-straw.net> Gerard Meijssen wrote: > So basically you provide me with THE argument to get rid of > categories.. Well you're welcome to propose the idea. I won't be supporting it. > pictures are not categorised Right. Which planet are we on again? > and we do not have software to prevent pictures from being seen. That's right, while [[End-user image suppression]] is looking into site-based software that will allow users to defer the seeing of certain images. I'll say it again and I'll say it a million times but you always ignore me: self-censorship already takes place on Wikipedia due to some people taking offence at certain images, such as the clitoris and autofellatio. This scheme leaves it up to the user what they see and don't see, the choice is theirs. Christiaan From christiaan at last-straw.net Wed Feb 23 18:17:23 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:17:23 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I think your comments will help a lot Rowan, particularly about pointing to desirability discussion in the opening paragraph. Thanks, Christiaan On 23 Feb 2005, at 6:07 pm, Rowan Collins wrote: > Christiaan, Gerard, et al: > > * I have not previously been involved in any of the discussions over > image suppression / self-censorship / content choice, and do not, at > present intend to state any particular opinion about this issue. > * I don't know what, if any, formal conflict resolution procedures > there are on meta, but since you've asked here, I thought I would give > some personal opinions about the conflict you are having. I would > stress that I have no set opinion on this debate, so although these > are my opinions, I hope they are relatively unbiased. > > * Firstly, I do not consider Gerard's actions to be "trolling", but > nor do I consider Christiaan to be "blinkered". This is a conflict of > understanding, pure and simple, regarding the purpose of a particular > page. This seems to be something of a problem on meta, because it is > so unstructured, and lacks a coherent community of its own, so people > vary greatly in how they perceive it. (I've been involved in similarly > heated debates over pages to do with single login proposals.) > > * Secondly, I don't think the use of a "disputed tag" is appropriate > here: meta has no NPOV policy, or any equivalent, and simply linking > to that of the English Wikipedia is irrelevant. Meta is a very > different environment, and meta pages are more closely related to > those of traditional wikis, in that they are a kind of on-going > refactored discussion, rather than content aimed at presentation. > Indeed, it's debatable whether many of them should have separate > "Talk:" pages at all - a traditional Wiki simply refactors discussion > ["ThreadMode"] into structured content ["DocumentMode"] as necessary. > [Note that there is an exception in terms of "documentation" pages, > but those are increasingly confined to the Help: namespace] In other > words, disputed or disputable content is the norm, not the exception. > > * Thirdly, I do think it is important for those creating a page with a > particular purpose in mind to not only state what is on-topic, but > provide an outlet for what is off-topic. If "philosophical" discussion > about the proposal is taking place elsewhere, it should be referenced > clearly. In other words, the introduction should read something like > "This page discusses technical implications of implementing such a > scheme; for discussion of whether it would be desirable, see: ..." If > there is no page appropriate to end that sentence, it should be > created, if only by adding a heading to the existing page under which > the discussion can take place. It seems to me that there *is* a lot of > existint discussion about this, so it ought to be possible for a > central point to be found or created. [References to appropriate parts > of the mailing list archives could also be added.] > > * In summary: *in my opinion* it is perfectly OK for a page on meta to > exist that discusses the technical measures needed for something that > may never happen; however, it is also OK for people to discuss the > necessity and/or desirability of the feature. Therefore, if it seems > appropriate to separate the two, they should be adequately > cross-referenced, so that it is clear to anyone entering the > discussion how they relate. > > I hope this helps, and I hope it doesn't read too much like legalese - > I've been reading documents from my local Borough Council all > afternoon... > > -- > Rowan Collins BSc > [IMSoP] > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > From christiaan at last-straw.net Wed Feb 23 19:58:24 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 19:58:24 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> The opening paragraph of [[End-user image suppression]] now reads: This page deals with the technical implications of implementing [[end-user]] controlled suppression of [[potentially offensive images]] on [[Wikimedia projects]]. For discussion of whether it would be desirable, see [[desirability of end-user image suppression]], the [[February 2005]] archive of WikiEN-I mailing list, and [[Wikipedia:Image censorship]]. ?Christiaan From maveric149 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 23 20:43:07 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:43:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 5 Fund Drive Report In-Reply-To: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050223204308.55412.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> On Day 5 (Tuesday 22 February eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not available in UTC) we made $6,704.38 (USD equivalent) through PayPal (completed payments only; no updates available for other sources at this time). This is a increase of 6.63% from Day 4 and represents 16.21% of total funds collected so far ($$41,352.44 ; only counting full days) and 8.94% of our goal ($75,000). All Wikimedia sites were either down or slow and read-only for most of the day. Day 5 Day 4 comparison Breakdown: PayPal USD equiv USD equiv %change AUD 42.22 $33.37 $23.46 42.25% CAD 287.30 $232.80 $608.01 -61.71% EUR 953.10 $2,553.09 $1,844.16 38.44% GBP 313.77 $595.47 $598.17 -0.45% JPY 13792 $130.73 $76.61 70.65% USD 3158.91 $3,158.91 $3,137.11 0.69% PayPal total: $6,704.38 $6,287.52 6.63% MoneyBookers no data $0.00 -na- TOTAL $6,704.38 $6,287.52 6.63% NOTE: Pending transactions are also included in the below numbers (some of them will likely turn out to be canceled) Grand totals so far (only counting complete days) PayPal USD equiv %GrandTotal AUD 1197.00 $946.23 2.29% CAD 1972.57 $1,598.37 3.87% EUR 11343.52 $14,828.25 35.86% GBP 1951.24 $3,703.06 8.95% JPY 104096 $986.73 2.39% USD 18863.11 $18,863.11 45.62% PayPal total: $40,925.75 Moneybookers: $426.69 1.03% GRAND TOTAL $41,352.44 100.00% % toward goal 55.14% For the most recent grand total and other details visit http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 Some selected comments from Day 5: See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_5 "The best site to arise from the internet: free access to all human knowledge" by Raymond Hill "Wikipedia is my homepage. I learn something new everyday." by Anonymous "Knowledge should be free, and that is what Wikipedia is about!" by Hendrik Richter "I wikipedia now instead of google my searches." by Michael Patronik "as an international student in sweden where books are expensive, this free library is wondeful" by Florian Gruenke "just a small token of appreciation for SUCH a wonderful group of resources" by Anonymous "Wikipedia is the most informative website I have ever been to" by Timothy Oster "Hopefully this can help prevent future outages! Keep up the great work, from everyone at tp.org!" by Joseph Moran "Wikimedia is entertaining, reliable and important. Thank you." by Anonymous "Thanks Wikipedia. You're my favourite website." by Oliver Kiehl "Nice work to all involved behind the scenes!" by Anonymous "Wikipedia is a shining example of the power and durability of the original Internet spirit: preserving and extending the commons." by Fergus O'Reilly "image is nothing, thirst for knowledge is everything" by Anonymous "Wikimedia projects: the 8th wonder of the world, thanks !" by Francois Schnell "I'd rather read Wikipedia than my college text books." by William Rose Some of my favorites: "i just found this place out! and hell yes i'll support this!" by Don Nguyen "The advancement and diffusion of knowledge is the only guardian of true liberty." by Izaro Lopez-Garcia "You guys rock. We use MediaWiki software for our wiki and love it. Thanks for making our dream project possible." by Jack Herrick "If you use it, and you can afford it, you SHOULD pay for it." by Tucker Lentz "Brilliant" by Anonymous Daniel Mayer, Wikimedia CFO __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Thu Feb 24 11:31:33 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (nicolas.weeger) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:31:33 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] fr.wikinews logo Message-ID: Unless my Internet cache is totally wrong, the fr.wikinews logo is now the "official" wikinews one, without the beta. But considering how many edits there are on this language, i'd pretty much favor the big red "BETA" warning it used to have.... Nicolas Ryo Acc?dez au courrier ?lectronique de La Poste : www.laposte.net ; 3615 LAPOSTENET (0,34?/mn) ; t?l : 08 92 68 13 50 (0,34?/mn) From gerard.meijssen at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 11:44:16 2005 From: gerard.meijssen at gmail.com (Gerard Meijssen) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:44:16 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] fr.wikinews logo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <421DBE10.7090108@gmail.com> nicolas.weeger wrote: >Unless my Internet cache is totally wrong, the fr.wikinews logo is now the "official" wikinews one, without the beta. But considering how many edits there are on this language, i'd pretty much favor the big red "BETA" warning it used to have.... > >Nicolas Ryo > Nicolas, That is a route you do not want to go. The fr:wikinews is controversial, there has been a lot of agro about it being started in the first place. The Wikinews project as a whole is not beta anymore so consequently the French wikinews is not BETA either. Your point is that the news coverage is not great. This is true for other Wikinews projects as well. The nl:wikinews is not lively either.The last article written there was by me because I wanted some more action.. :( (This was on the 19th after 14 days of no new news) What you are really after is something different: "what is the minimum level of activity to have the continued existence of a wikinews." No news in 14 days might qualify. Then again, how do you treat the request for a restart ? Again five known editors promissing to give it a go ?? It is a Pandora's box, but please let hope leave her box.. :) Thanks, GerardM From christiaan at last-straw.net Thu Feb 24 12:36:20 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:36:20 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> Message-ID: <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> I've come back for more advice. Although the outlining of and discussion about the desirability of [[End-user image suppression]] has been moved to [[Desirability of End-user image suppression]], and this is made clear in the opening paragraph of [[End-user image suppression]], User:GerardM is still insisting on posting desirability discussion to [[End-user image suppression]]. What to do? Christiaan From notafishz at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 12:50:36 2005 From: notafishz at gmail.com (notafish) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:50:36 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] fr.wikinews logo In-Reply-To: <421DBE10.7090108@gmail.com> References: <421DBE10.7090108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <453b6e50502240450f452b46@mail.gmail.com> > That is a route you do not want to go. The fr:wikinews is controversial, > there has been a lot of agro about it being started in the first place. > The Wikinews project as a whole is not beta anymore so consequently the > French wikinews is not BETA either. Agreed.. in theory. If the project goes live, the whole project goes live. But I *so* agree with Ryo on that BETA thing... Maybe again we should adapt the rules (the more we go, the more we learn), and make sure a specific language project is viable before it goes off BETA? > Your point is that the news coverage is not great. Not great is the least we can say. The last story written is an editorial (and I mean the word) on a very controversial subject ie. music download., without references and definitely defending a POV. > What you are really after is something different: "what is the minimum > level of activity to have the continued existence of a wikinews." No > news in 14 days might qualify. Then again, how do you treat the request > for a restart ? Again five known editors promissing to give it a go ?? > It is a Pandora's box, but please let hope leave her box.. :) I am not so much in favor of a closing down of the thing, but a BETA thing would be grand. And if it stays BETA for another year...well... Delphine From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Thu Feb 24 12:50:56 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 23:50:56 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> Message-ID: <20050224125056.GZ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Christiaan Briggs (christiaan at last-straw.net) [050224 23:36]: > I've come back for more advice. Although the outlining of and > discussion about the desirability of [[End-user image suppression]] has > been moved to [[Desirability of End-user image suppression]], and this > is made clear in the opening paragraph of [[End-user image > suppression]], User:GerardM is still insisting on posting desirability > discussion to [[End-user image suppression]]. What to do? The desirability discussion presumably needs greater notice in the technical discussion. Many people (myself included) consider separation of technical methods of implementing a highly debatable policy decision from debate of the desirability of that policy decision to be artificial and disingenuous at best. Doing so appears to make the debatable social decision a fait accompli. Trying to send *all* criticism off to a separate article is also a favourite tool of POV warriors on en: and presumably elsewhere; possibly this is seen as reminiscent of that. - d. From gerard.meijssen at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 12:53:39 2005 From: gerard.meijssen at gmail.com (Gerard Meijssen) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:53:39 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> Message-ID: <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> Christiaan Briggs wrote: > I've come back for more advice. Although the outlining of and > discussion about the desirability of [[End-user image suppression]] > has been moved to [[Desirability of End-user image suppression]], and > this is made clear in the opening paragraph of [[End-user image > suppression]], User:GerardM is still insisting on posting desirability > discussion to [[End-user image suppression]]. What to do? > > Christiaan Christiaan, It is one thing to split articles into two, it is another to castrate the talk pages and move all things that are not to your liking elsewhere. Your right to ask for a method to have mechanisms into the mediawiki software is equal to my right to have an angst of this first step of introducing censorship into our projects. *Your proposal will make it mandatory to allow for tags/categorisations so that censorship will work. *Your original article title was End-user content suppression and decided that this was not "good" renamed it to image suppression *There has already been one anonymous coward asking for using your censoring mechanism for content. *You have repeatedly removed all things you thing are detrimental to your proposal from the article and its talk page *Basically you ask for censorship and find people who oppose it. As to your question, withdraw your proposal or allow for criticism. Thanks, as to your proposal: No thanks ! GerardM From christiaan at last-straw.net Thu Feb 24 12:56:03 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:56:03 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <20050224125056.GZ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <20050224125056.GZ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: David Gerard wrote: > Christiaan Briggs: > >> I've come back for more advice. Although the outlining of and >> discussion about the desirability of [[End-user image suppression]] >> has been moved to [[Desirability of End-user image suppression]], and >> this is made clear in the opening paragraph of [[End-user image >> suppression]], User:GerardM is still insisting on posting >> desirability discussion to [[End-user image suppression]]. What to >> do? > > The desirability discussion presumably needs greater notice in the > technical discussion. You're not seriously suggesting that Gerard did not know about it are you? Christiaan From walter at vankalken.net Thu Feb 24 12:56:12 2005 From: walter at vankalken.net (Walter van Kalken) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:56:12 +0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <20050224125056.GZ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gma il.com> <82256297924c146e 19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-str aw.net> <20050224125056.GZ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <421DCEEC.1080409@vankalken.net> > >The desirability discussion presumably needs greater notice in the >technical discussion. Many people (myself included) consider separation of >technical methods of implementing a highly debatable policy decision from >debate of the desirability of that policy decision to be artificial and >disingenuous at best. Doing so appears to make the debatable social >decision a fait accompli. Trying to send *all* criticism off to a separate >article is also a favourite tool of POV warriors on en: and presumably >elsewhere; possibly this is seen as reminiscent of that. > > > > I conquer with David Gerard, he stated very eloquently how I feel on this subject. Before even thinking about technical implication lets first debate if we want it or not. As I understand it the developers have been asked already to program this? How can that be if we didn't even agree on such a feature in the first place. Walter van Kalken From christiaan at last-straw.net Thu Feb 24 13:02:44 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:02:44 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421DCEEC.1080409@vankalken.net> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gma il.com> <82256297924c146e 19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-str aw.net> <20050224125056.GZ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <421DCEEC.1080409@vankalken.net> Message-ID: <32bc8f98af9e42c8497b3f7226106463@last-straw.net> Walter van Kalken wrote: > Before even thinking about technical implication lets first debate if > we want it or not. Part of the problem of this debate is that there has never been a tangible scheme to discuss, only a idea. It is your opinion that it is ridiculous to outline a scheme before deciding on it. Equally I could argue that it is ridiculous to decide on a system that has not been outlined. If you don't like what is being done then I suggest you nominate the page for deletion. > As I understand it the developers have been asked already to program > this? Not that I know of. I have asked developers to post their opinions on how easy or difficult it would be to code however. Christiaan From nknight at runawaynet.com Thu Feb 24 13:04:35 2005 From: nknight at runawaynet.com (Nicholas Knight) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 05:04:35 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> Gerard Meijssen wrote: > Christiaan, > It is one thing to split articles into two, it is another to castrate > the talk pages and move all things that are not to your liking > elsewhere. Your right to ask for a method to have mechanisms into the > mediawiki software is equal to my right to have an angst of this first > step of introducing censorship into our projects. THERE. IS. NO. CENSORSHIP. > *Your proposal will make it mandatory to allow for tags/categorisations > so that censorship will work. Our proposal will make it POSSIBLE for categories to be used by END-USERS to CHOOSE what they wish to see. > *Your original article title was End-user content suppression and > decided that this was not "good" renamed it to image suppression Because the focus was and has always been on images. Whether like measures need to be taken for text is a different discussion. > *There has already been one anonymous coward asking for using your > censoring mechanism for content. What? > *You have repeatedly removed all things you thing are detrimental to > your proposal from the article and its talk page The article was intended for a discussion of the technical side of it. Policy can be dealt with elsewhere. > *Basically you ask for censorship and find people who oppose it. You really need to read the wikien-l archives. Christiaan was one of the most vocal opponents of linking images instead of inlining them. > As to your question, withdraw your proposal or allow for criticism. Constructive criticism is always welcome. Blanket false statements are not. From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Thu Feb 24 13:08:30 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:08:30 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> Message-ID: <20050224130829.GA25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Nicholas Knight (nknight at runawaynet.com) [050225 00:04]: > Gerard Meijssen wrote: > >It is one thing to split articles into two, it is another to castrate > >the talk pages and move all things that are not to your liking > >elsewhere. Your right to ask for a method to have mechanisms into the > >mediawiki software is equal to my right to have an angst of this first > >step of introducing censorship into our projects. > THERE. IS. NO. CENSORSHIP. Capitals or no, it appears at the very least this is a mechanism to enable and encourage it. I doubt you would claim there is no wish from anyone to censor Wikipedia per se, or to do something that could reasonably be tagged censorship. - d. From nknight at runawaynet.com Thu Feb 24 13:11:02 2005 From: nknight at runawaynet.com (Nicholas Knight) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 05:11:02 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <20050224130829.GA25721@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <20050224130829.GA25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <421DD266.7050109@runawaynet.com> David Gerard wrote: > Capitals or no, it appears at the very least this is a mechanism to enable > and encourage it. I doubt you would claim there is no wish from anyone to > censor Wikipedia per se, or to do something that could reasonably be tagged > censorship. No one has yet explained how the proposed mechanism could be used for censorship. All we have is Gerard on some sort of holy crusade shouting "censorship!". From christiaan at last-straw.net Thu Feb 24 13:15:40 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:15:40 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <20050224130829.GA25721@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <20050224130829.GA25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <5cf3e51ecfbeca429388f77dc1bf718e@last-straw.net> David Gerard wrote: > I doubt you would claim there is no wish from anyone to censor > Wikipedia per se, or to do something that could reasonably be tagged > censorship. Except that self-censorship (i.e. suppression of images) already takes place on Wikipedia due to some people taking offence at being presented with certain images of the clitoris, torture and autofellatio. Christiaan From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Thu Feb 24 13:16:22 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:16:22 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <20050224125056.GZ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <20050224131622.GB25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Christiaan Briggs (christiaan at last-straw.net) [050224 23:56]: > David Gerard wrote: > >The desirability discussion presumably needs greater notice in the > >technical discussion. > You're not seriously suggesting that Gerard did not know about it are > you? As I explained in the bit you snipped, dividing the technical discussion of how to implement a feature from the desirability of that feature in the first place may be seen as artificial and disingenuous. And it certainly appears that this is being seen that way. Further (to say again the thing you snipped), continuing to discuss the implementation of a feature while purging note of the fact that its esirability is *strongly* contentious closely resembles an attempt to make it a fait accompli. Also, you should note that - although I am certainly not saying this is your intention at all - trying to shift *all* criticism off to a separate page is a favourite tactic of POV warriors on en: and in other places. As such, your actions may be seen as highly reminiscent of that. I suggest you not try so hard to purge this technical page of all mention of the highly contentious social debate it's concerned with implementing one side of. i.e. "It hurts when I do this!" "Don't do that, then." - d. From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Thu Feb 24 13:17:22 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:17:22 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <5cf3e51ecfbeca429388f77dc1bf718e@last-straw.net> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <20050224130829.GA25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <5cf3e51ecfbeca429388f77dc1bf718e@last-straw.net> Message-ID: <20050224131722.GC25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Christiaan Briggs (christiaan at last-straw.net) [050225 00:15]: > David Gerard wrote: > >I doubt you would claim there is no wish from anyone to censor > >Wikipedia per se, or to do something that could reasonably be tagged > >censorship. > Except that self-censorship (i.e. suppression of images) already takes > place on Wikipedia due to some people taking offence at being presented > with certain images of the clitoris, torture and autofellatio. This appears to be saying just what I said, but is phrased as a disagreement. Please clarify. - d. From gerard.meijssen at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 13:17:17 2005 From: gerard.meijssen at gmail.com (Gerard Meijssen) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:17:17 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> Message-ID: <421DD3DD.6030209@gmail.com> Nicholas Knight wrote: > Gerard Meijssen wrote: > >> Christiaan, >> It is one thing to split articles into two, it is another to castrate >> the talk pages and move all things that are not to your liking >> elsewhere. Your right to ask for a method to have mechanisms into the >> mediawiki software is equal to my right to have an angst of this >> first step of introducing censorship into our projects. > > > THERE. IS. NO. CENSORSHIP. > No need to shout and yes we disagree on that one. The way you lot have been trampling on my views on this has the hallmarks of censorship. Yes, in my opinion this proposal is about censorship. >> *Your proposal will make it mandatory to allow for >> tags/categorisations so that censorship will work. > > > Our proposal will make it POSSIBLE for categories to be used by > END-USERS to CHOOSE what they wish to see. We disagree on this one. For it is not only end users that will choose. Read your own proposal point 4. > >> *Your original article title was End-user content suppression and >> decided that this was not "good" renamed it to image suppression > > > Because the focus was and has always been on images. Whether like > measures need to be taken for text is a different discussion. Technically it is not different so why should it be a different discussion ? > >> *There has already been one anonymous coward asking for using your >> censoring mechanism for content. > > > What? Right, it is a straw mans argument that one thing leads to the next. Read the history if you can still find what was said. It is there. > >> *You have repeatedly removed all things you thing are detrimental to >> your proposal from the article and its talk page > > > The article was intended for a discussion of the technical side of it. > Policy can be dealt with elsewhere. It may have been intended by you for this. On Meta no case has been made why we should want such an abomination. > >> *Basically you ask for censorship and find people who oppose it. > > > You really need to read the wikien-l archives. Christiaan was one of > the most vocal opponents of linking images instead of inlining them. I do not need to read the wikien-l archives. They have no bearing upon META. If you want to propose something on META put your case forward on META. I would not ask you to read the wikpedia-nl mailing list either. Either put your case forward or you do not have a case. > >> As to your question, withdraw your proposal or allow for criticism. > > > Constructive criticism is always welcome. Blanket false statements are > not. > Your idea of what is true and false is coloured by where you stand, where you are from. Your truth is just that. Making me out for a liar and being not constructive is well, not friendly to say the least. Thanks, No thanks ! GerardM From gerard.meijssen at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 13:20:27 2005 From: gerard.meijssen at gmail.com (Gerard Meijssen) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:20:27 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421DD266.7050109@runawaynet.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <20050224130829.GA25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <421DD266.7050109@runawaynet.com> Message-ID: <421DD49B.6000002@gmail.com> Nicholas Knight wrote: > David Gerard wrote: > >> Capitals or no, it appears at the very least this is a mechanism to >> enable >> and encourage it. I doubt you would claim there is no wish from >> anyone to >> censor Wikipedia per se, or to do something that could reasonably be >> tagged >> censorship. > > > No one has yet explained how the proposed mechanism could be used for > censorship. All we have is Gerard on some sort of holy crusade > shouting "censorship!". > Have tags, can select and filter. Censorship abc PS Holy crusade ?? nah, shouting .. MOST DEFINETLY IF THAT IS WHAT IT TAKES !! :) Thanks, No thanks ! GerardM From christiaan at last-straw.net Thu Feb 24 13:24:07 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:24:07 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <20050224131622.GB25721@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <20050224125056.GZ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <20050224131622.GB25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: You didn't answer my question. You're not seriously suggesting that Gerard did not know about it are you? The rest of your email didn't make sense to me. How does one purge debate while at the same announcing where it is in the opening paragraph? Purge, in case you were unaware, means to remove. The only thing that has happened, on the advice of, Rowan Collins, is that it has been _moved_ so as discussion about technical implications is not drowned by Gerard's shrill. Christiaan David Gerard wrote: > Christiaan Briggs: >> David Gerard wrote: > >>> The desirability discussion presumably needs greater notice in the >>> technical discussion. > >> You're not seriously suggesting that Gerard did not know about it are >> you? > > As I explained in the bit you snipped, dividing the technical > discussion of > how to implement a feature from the desirability of that feature in the > first place may be seen as artificial and disingenuous. And it > certainly > appears that this is being seen that way. > > Further (to say again the thing you snipped), continuing to discuss the > implementation of a feature while purging note of the fact that its > esirability is *strongly* contentious closely resembles an attempt to > make > it a fait accompli. > > Also, you should note that - although I am certainly not saying this is > your intention at all - trying to shift *all* criticism off to a > separate > page is a favourite tactic of POV warriors on en: and in other places. > As > such, your actions may be seen as highly reminiscent of that. > > I suggest you not try so hard to purge this technical page of all > mention > of the highly contentious social debate it's concerned with > implementing > one side of. i.e. "It hurts when I do this!" "Don't do that, then." > > > - d. From erik_moeller at gmx.de Thu Feb 24 13:29:43 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:29:43 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] fr.wikinews logo In-Reply-To: <453b6e50502240450f452b46@mail.gmail.com> References: <421DBE10.7090108@gmail.com> <453b6e50502240450f452b46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <421DD6C7.8030701@gmx.de> I suggest editing MediaWiki:Tagline and putting the "beta" there. That might be done for any Wikinews editions which does not yet have a sufficient level of activity. This is better than defacing the logo, in my opinion. It turns out that it is very difficult to predict that activity, and I don't think the current process on Meta is really anywhere close to doing that. The Swedish Wikinews is very active, for example, thanks in large part to a handful of dedicated editors -- but that might change any day. Of course, all the editions are suffering from the current slowness, and recent downtime. One notable difference in Wikinews to other projects is that a quick glance at the frontpage gives you an impression of the level of activity: if you only see old news, obviously the project is not very active. This is good if it is seen as an incentive to work on it, bad if it frustrates people and makes them give up on the project. Wikipedia, Wikibooks, Wikisource, Wiktionary in the different languages all have their phases of activity and inactivity, but nowhere are those phases more visible than on Wikinews. Switching the project into read-only whenever it enters such a phase seems like a bad and un-wiki idea; perhaps you could create a template like this for the frontpage instead: The French edition of Wikinews is currently not very active. Please participate in building this website into a useful resource! Ideas for increasing activity are collected at [[Wikinews:Building Wikinews]]. Here are a few suggestions to increase activity: 1) Translate. It is much easier to translate a well-written article than to write a new one from scratch. Wikinews articles have to grow to publishable quality very fast, "stubs" aren't helpful, and references are a strict requirement. As such, writing them takes a lot of effort. But the English Wikinews, for example, is now publishing articles at a reasonable rate. As an author of that edition, I also get great satisfaction out of knowing that my work is going to be translated into languages I do not speak. 2) Prominently link the equivalent of http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Submit_a_story - this helps to attract people who do not know about the Wikinews process and just want to get their feet wet. 3) Have brief news items on the frontpage which aren't fully developed stories yet. This should only be done until real stories are being published regularly, so as to not conflict with the [[Current events]] pages on Wikipedia. 4) Edit MediaWiki:Sitenotice and point people to the IRC channel, mailing list and Village Pump. Building a community helps to create a feeling of identity and the desire to protect that community, which is an incentive to do work on the site. 5) Organize and participate in events like the design contest or the Wikinews chats. Point people on Wikipedia to these events to get them interested in the project. 6) If you are a software developer, help us to implement MediaWiki features like category RSS feeds and dynamic article display. http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1411 is the only code currently being actively worked on, to my knowledge. Please also join the international Wikinews channel at #wikinews -- a lot of good people are hanging out there who may help you to answer questions with the project. Regards, Erik From christiaan at last-straw.net Thu Feb 24 13:25:47 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:25:47 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <20050224131722.GC25721@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <20050224130829.GA25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <5cf3e51ecfbeca429388f77dc1bf718e@last-straw.net> <20050224131722.GC25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: David Gerard wrote: > Christiaan Briggs: >> David Gerard wrote: > >>> I doubt you would claim there is no wish from anyone to censor >>> Wikipedia per se, or to do something that could reasonably be tagged >>> censorship. > >> Except that self-censorship (i.e. suppression of images) already >> takes place on Wikipedia due to some people taking offence at being >> presented with certain images of the clitoris, torture and >> autofellatio. > > This appears to be saying just what I said, but is phrased as a > disagreement. Please clarify. Editors censor, as in self-censor, already on Wikipedia. Christiaan From nknight at runawaynet.com Thu Feb 24 13:26:48 2005 From: nknight at runawaynet.com (Nicholas Knight) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 05:26:48 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421DD3DD.6030209@gmail.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <421DD3DD.6030209@gmail.com> Message-ID: <421DD618.1030303@runawaynet.com> Gerard Meijssen wrote: > Nicholas Knight wrote: > >> Gerard Meijssen wrote: >> >>> Christiaan, >>> It is one thing to split articles into two, it is another to castrate >>> the talk pages and move all things that are not to your liking >>> elsewhere. Your right to ask for a method to have mechanisms into the >>> mediawiki software is equal to my right to have an angst of this >>> first step of introducing censorship into our projects. >> >> >> >> THERE. IS. NO. CENSORSHIP. >> > No need to shout and yes we disagree on that one. The way you lot have > been trampling on my views on this has the hallmarks of censorship. Yes, > in my opinion this proposal is about censorship. > >>> *Your proposal will make it mandatory to allow for >>> tags/categorisations so that censorship will work. >> >> >> >> Our proposal will make it POSSIBLE for categories to be used by >> END-USERS to CHOOSE what they wish to see. > > > We disagree on this one. For it is not only end users that will choose. > Read your own proposal point 4. I don't even know what that's doing there or who added it. I'm removing it now. This proposal has never had anything to do with proxies or IP ranges. Even if that was part of the goal, it would be a technical nightmare and would not get the parties implementing such filters anything close to what they want. >>> *Your original article title was End-user content suppression and >>> decided that this was not "good" renamed it to image suppression >> >> >> >> Because the focus was and has always been on images. Whether like >> measures need to be taken for text is a different discussion. > > > Technically it is not different so why should it be a different > discussion ? It is different both philisophically and technically. The code used to defer images will not be usable for entire articles. >>> *There has already been one anonymous coward asking for using your >>> censoring mechanism for content. >> >> >> >> What? > > > Right, it is a straw mans argument that one thing leads to the next. You're still not making sense. > Read the history if you can still find what was said. It is there. You brought it up, you point me to it. >> Constructive criticism is always welcome. Blanket false statements are >> not. >> > Your idea of what is true and false is coloured by where you stand, > where you are from. Your truth is just that. Making me out for a liar > and being not constructive is well, not friendly to say the least. I don't feel very friendly toward someone that can't articulate themselves but insists they're right. From nknight at runawaynet.com Thu Feb 24 13:28:18 2005 From: nknight at runawaynet.com (Nicholas Knight) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 05:28:18 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421DD49B.6000002@gmail.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <20050224130829.GA25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <421DD266.7050109@runawaynet.com> <421DD49B.6000002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <421DD672.5090100@runawaynet.com> Gerard Meijssen wrote: > Have tags, can select and filter. Censorship abc So you oppose libraries creating separate sections of separate categories of books and letting users browse the sections they want to and not browse the sections they don't? From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Thu Feb 24 13:29:22 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:29:22 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <20050224125056.GZ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <20050224131622.GB25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <20050224132922.GE25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Christiaan Briggs (christiaan at last-straw.net) [050225 00:24]: > You didn't answer my question. You're not seriously suggesting that > Gerard did not know about it are you? No, nor did I at any time suggest it. If you can point at the message in which I did so, I would welcome this so as to improve the clarity of my communicaiton. > The rest of your email didn't make sense to me. Even the bits about how continuing technical discussion of implementing a feature when the very need for it is highly contentious can be considered artificial and disingenuous, and come across as an intention to implement the debatable policy as a fait accompli? (Note that this concerns appearances, not necessarily what you were thinking at the time.) > How does one purge > debate while at the same announcing where it is in the opening > paragraph? Evidently he feels it is profoundly lacking in prominence. > Purge, in case you were unaware, means to remove. The only thing that > has happened, on the advice of, Rowan Collins, is that it has been > _moved_ so as discussion about technical implications is not drowned by > Gerard's shrill. Are you assuming bad faith on Gerard's part? - d. From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Thu Feb 24 13:31:00 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:31:00 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421DD618.1030303@runawaynet.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <421DD3DD.6030209@gmail.com> <421DD618.1030303@runawaynet.com> Message-ID: <20050224133100.GF25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Nicholas Knight (nknight at runawaynet.com) [050225 00:26]: > I don't feel very friendly toward someone that can't articulate > themselves but insists they're right. PERHAPS HE COULD WRITE ALL IN CAPS. SHOUTING USUALLY WORKS, DOESN'T IT? - d. From christiaan at last-straw.net Thu Feb 24 13:35:10 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:35:10 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <20050224132922.GE25721@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <20050224125056.GZ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <20050224131622.GB25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <20050224132922.GE25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <6bd61a3003c99719e8379035326d1a94@last-straw.net> David Gerard wrote: >> How does one purge debate while at the same announcing where it is in >> the opening paragraph? > > Evidently he feels it is profoundly lacking in prominence. You didn't answer my question. >> Purge, in case you were unaware, means to remove. The only thing that >> has happened, on the advice of, Rowan Collins, is that it has been >> _moved_ so as discussion about technical implications is not drowned >> by Gerard's shrill. > > Are you assuming bad faith on Gerard's part? You used the word purge. Please explain what has been purged. I would hate to think any of this discussion has been removed from Wikimedia. Christiaan From nknight at runawaynet.com Thu Feb 24 13:36:23 2005 From: nknight at runawaynet.com (Nicholas Knight) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 05:36:23 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <20050224132922.GE25721@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <20050224125056.GZ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <20050224131622.GB25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <20050224132922.GE25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <421DD857.8090902@runawaynet.com> David Gerard wrote: > Are you assuming bad faith on Gerard's part? I've been assuming bad faith on Gerard's part for days. I've seen no evidence of good faith, and plenty of bad. From gerard.meijssen at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 13:40:49 2005 From: gerard.meijssen at gmail.com (Gerard Meijssen) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:40:49 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421DD672.5090100@runawaynet.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <20050224130829.GA25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <421DD266.7050109@runawaynet.com> <421DD49B.6000002@gmail.com> <421DD672.5090100@runawaynet.com> Message-ID: <421DD961.1070909@gmail.com> Nicholas Knight wrote: > Gerard Meijssen wrote: > >> Have tags, can select and filter. Censorship abc > > > So you oppose libraries creating separate sections of separate > categories of books and letting users browse the sections they want to > and not browse the sections they don't? In a library all the books are there. I am opposed to libraries not stocking on books that are encyclopedic in their outlook. So, I do not need to see Hustler in my local "bieb". For that I could go to a book shop. Your remark is not friendly nor constructive, you asked for an explanation how your proposal can be used by a censor. I explained. And your reply has nothing to do with the information given. Thanks, No thanks ! GerardM From christiaan at last-straw.net Thu Feb 24 13:48:53 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:48:53 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421DD961.1070909@gmail.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <20050224130829.GA25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <421DD266.7050109@runawaynet.com> <421DD49B.6000002@gmail.com> <421DD672.5090100@runawaynet.com> <421DD961.1070909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7ca364a07ecd62db3df218b01fd568d3@last-straw.net> Gerard Meijssen wrote: > In a library all the books are there. I am opposed to libraries not > stocking on books that are encyclopedic in their outlook. Precisely. And what is currently happening on Wikipedia is that many editors are pushing for certain images be suppressed or even removed based on their ability to cause offence (i.e. self-censorship). This scheme would mean that such images do not need to be removed from the server, instead letting the end-user choose to hide them. Christiaan From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Thu Feb 24 13:50:53 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (nicolas.weeger) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:50:53 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] fr.wikinews logo Message-ID: > I suggest editing MediaWiki:Tagline and putting the "beta" there. That > might be done for any Wikinews editions which does not yet have a > sufficient level of activity. This is better than defacing the logo, in > my opinion. Since there are no sysops on fr:, thus the sitenotice can't be changed, I suggest you do it :) > One notable difference in Wikinews to other projects is that a quick > glance at the frontpage gives you an impression of the level of Except you can't be sure people will go to the front page. But that's beside the point regarding the beta status. > Regards, > > Erik Nicolas Acc?dez au courrier ?lectronique de La Poste : www.laposte.net ; 3615 LAPOSTENET (0,34?/mn) ; t?l : 08 92 68 13 50 (0,34?/mn) From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Thu Feb 24 13:52:57 2005 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (nicolas.weeger) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:52:57 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] fr.wikinews logo Message-ID: > > That is a route you do not want to go. The fr:wikinews is controversial, > > there has been a lot of agro about it being started in the first place. > > The Wikinews project as a whole is not beta anymore so consequently the > > French wikinews is not BETA either. So when chinese wikinews opens, it won't be beta either, he... I for one favor the beta-per-language discrimination - because you can *never* know the level of activity. Nicolas Acc?dez au courrier ?lectronique de La Poste : www.laposte.net ; 3615 LAPOSTENET (0,34?/mn) ; t?l : 08 92 68 13 50 (0,34?/mn) From christiaan at last-straw.net Thu Feb 24 14:08:41 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:08:41 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421DD3DD.6030209@gmail.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <421DD3DD.6030209@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8531a6dfc9c7201c5e2dfd2b57861f51@last-straw.net> This is getting out of hand, now GerardM is resorting to vandalism: http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=End- user_image_suppression&curid=15602&diff=0&oldid=0 Christiaan From aphaia at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 16:30:37 2005 From: aphaia at gmail.com (Aphaia) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 01:30:37 +0900 Subject: [Foundation-l] fr.wikinews logo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <35be2a7105022408305b1bcbf2@mail.gmail.com> A question on "beta" stage of Wikinews came to me. Though Wikinews is a prospective project, it is still one of most controversial project among us, and hasty action woudn't be good for its development in my humble opinion. I've understood it is (or has been, I am not sure for that) on its beta stage because of the board decision, not depending on its activity. The most recent board was held in the last week and there was no discussion if Wikinews switched from its beta stage to the stage in its real activity. And this decision was made for the Wikinews entirely, not to its each local project. Now it seems to be suggested the judge of the end of beta stage depends only the activites of each local project, not related to the board decision. It seems to me a bit strange and adventurous. It is my wrong understanding or I miss some announce on Wikinews? -- Aphaea@*.wikipedia.org email: Aphaia @ gmail (dot) com From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Thu Feb 24 18:03:21 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 05:03:21 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <6bd61a3003c99719e8379035326d1a94@last-straw.net> References: <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <20050224125056.GZ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <20050224131622.GB25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <20050224132922.GE25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <6bd61a3003c99719e8379035326d1a94@last-straw.net> Message-ID: <20050224180321.GH25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Christiaan Briggs (christiaan at last-straw.net) [050225 00:35]: > David Gerard wrote: > >>How does one purge debate while at the same announcing where it is in > >>the opening paragraph? > >Evidently he feels it is profoundly lacking in prominence. > You didn't answer my question. Er, yes I did. That's three times I have now. Please go back and read the posts, I'm not going to rephrase it a fourth time. > >>Purge, in case you were unaware, means to remove. The only thing that > >>has happened, on the advice of, Rowan Collins, is that it has been > >>_moved_ so as discussion about technical implications is not drowned > >>by Gerard's shrill. > >Are you assuming bad faith on Gerard's part? > You used the word purge. Please explain what has been purged. I would > hate to think any of this discussion has been removed from Wikimedia. >From a very relevant page. You can hardly claim a contentious move is not being planned when you are actively planning it, and having such a page give the impression it is anything other than highly contentious is (evidently) problematic in itself. - d. From aphaia at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 18:05:49 2005 From: aphaia at gmail.com (Aphaia) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 03:05:49 +0900 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <8531a6dfc9c7201c5e2dfd2b57861f51@last-straw.net> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <421DD3DD.6030209@gmail.com> <8531a6dfc9c7201c5e2dfd2b57861f51@last-straw.net> Message-ID: <35be2a7105022410057d29db30@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:08:41 +0000, Christiaan Briggs wrote: > This is getting out of hand, now GerardM is resorting to vandalism: I don't think he did vandalism around on this issue. He had just a different thought and idea of yours: what should be discussed, what are related topics and so on. And it is not good in my humble opinion to call someone who acted not in a way you would like to a "vandal". I look here only the deferences of opinions and sad misunderstandings. NO vandalism, I dare say. Though Gerald and I have different opinions sometimes, in my views he has been on a good faith since I''ve known him Christian, you requested for comments on this issue on EN WP. I thank you for your request, "Two are better than one", but it were better you would have done so before you stated Gerald made vandalism. BTW I can't understand why you made your request on EN WP which only ENWP issues would be resolve. If your concern is only related to EN WP, why have you discussion on meta and foundation-l? (For your information meta has also RfC to resolve comunity-wide disputes) It's not an accusation but a pure question. Anyway I hope you will have sufficient comments to resolve this issues, and all of you, to Christiaan, Nicholas Knight and Gerald will be satisfied with the result at last. -- Aphaea@*.wikipedia.org email: Aphaia @ gmail (dot) com From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Thu Feb 24 18:07:57 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 05:07:57 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <8531a6dfc9c7201c5e2dfd2b57861f51@last-straw.net> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <421DD3DD.6030209@gmail.com> <8531a6dfc9c7201c5e2dfd2b57861f51@last-straw.net> Message-ID: <20050224180757.GI25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Christiaan Briggs (christiaan at last-straw.net) [050225 01:08]: > This is getting out of hand, now GerardM is resorting to vandalism: > http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=End- > user_image_suppression&curid=15602&diff=0&oldid=0 That's not even close to vandalism by any reasonable definition. Wht it has done is concisely outline the actual situation that you appear not to wish to acknowledge in any way at all. What Gerard actually did with the above edit was take this paragraph: This page originated from a discussion on the WikiEN-I mailing list where some level of consensus was reached between the free-speech and content suppression parties that a technical solution is possible that will go a long way towards satisfying most mainstream positions in the debate. - and add the following text: However, it should be stressed that this page is ''not'' intended to imply that this is a fait accompli, but merely an initial exploration of the specification and feasibility of a possible solution. The features described below are ''not'' currently under development, and will certainly not be made live until their desirability has been firmly established. Are you saying that this is false, and making out that saying this is "vandalism"? - d. From christiaan at last-straw.net Thu Feb 24 18:16:00 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 18:16:00 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <35be2a7105022410057d29db30@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <421DD3DD.6030209@gmail.com> <8531a6dfc9c7201c5e2dfd2b57861f51@last-straw.net> <35be2a7105022410057d29db30@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <922a2fa2bd31e80382377d14208c9306@last-straw.net> Aphaia wrote: > On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:08:41 +0000, Christiaan Briggs > wrote: >> This is getting out of hand, now GerardM is resorting to vandalism: > > I don't think he did vandalism around on this issue. He had just a > different thought and idea of yours: what should be discussed, what > are related topics and so on. And it is not good in my humble opinion > to call someone who acted not in a way you would like to a "vandal". I > look here only the deferences of opinions and sad misunderstandings. > NO vandalism, I dare say. Though Gerald and I have different opinions > sometimes, in my views he has been on a good faith since I''ve known > him At best it was "disruption to make a point" > Christian, you requested for comments on this issue on EN WP. I thank > you for your request, "Two are better than one", but it were better > you would have done so before you stated Gerald made vandalism. BTW I > can't understand why you made your request on EN WP which only ENWP > issues would be resolve. If your concern is only related to EN WP, why > have you discussion on meta and foundation-l? (For your information > meta has also RfC to resolve comunity-wide disputes) It's not an > accusation but a pure question. Anyway I hope you will have sufficient > comments to resolve this issues, and all of you, to Christiaan, > Nicholas Knight and Gerald will be satisfied with the result at last. I couldn't find any processes on meta. Could you point me to RfC on meta? Christiaan From christiaan at last-straw.net Thu Feb 24 18:17:55 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 18:17:55 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <20050224180757.GI25721@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <421DD3DD.6030209@gmail.com> <8531a6dfc9c7201c5e2dfd2b57861f51@last-straw.net> <20050224180757.GI25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <556b648e89c5423ba716e9af7659404b@last-straw.net> David Gerard wrote: > That's not even close to vandalism by any reasonable definition. Wht > it has > done is concisely outline the actual situation that you appear not to > wish > to acknowledge in any way at all. At best it was "disruption to make a point". > What Gerard actually did with the above edit was take this paragraph: > > This page originated from a discussion on the WikiEN-I mailing list > where > some level of consensus was reached between the free-speech and > content > suppression parties that a technical solution is possible that will > go a > long way towards satisfying most mainstream positions in the debate. > > - and add the following text: > > However, it should be stressed that this page is ''not'' intended to > imply > that this is a fait accompli, but merely an initial > exploration of > the specification and feasibility of a possible solution. The > features > described below are ''not'' currently under development, and will > certainly > not be made live until their desirability has been firmly > established. > > Are you saying that this is false, and making out that saying this is > "vandalism"? Yes that is false, he did not add the second bit. Christiaan From christiaan at last-straw.net Thu Feb 24 18:23:38 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 18:23:38 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <556b648e89c5423ba716e9af7659404b@last-straw.net> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <421DD3DD.6030209@gmail.com> <8531a6dfc9c7201c5e2dfd2b57861f51@last-straw.net> <20050224180757.GI25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <556b648e89c5423ba716e9af7659404b@last-straw.net> Message-ID: <1665aa09c93c2fcd28eb5e5500373728@last-straw.net> By the way what he actually did was delete the whole page and replace it with: "Obviously you will revert this. This is just an demonstration what will happen if content is tagged to indicate material that is not to a censors liking." Christiaan On 24 Feb 2005, at 6:17 pm, Christiaan Briggs wrote: > David Gerard wrote: > >> That's not even close to vandalism by any reasonable definition. Wht >> it has >> done is concisely outline the actual situation that you appear not to >> wish >> to acknowledge in any way at all. > > At best it was "disruption to make a point". > >> What Gerard actually did with the above edit was take this paragraph: >> >> This page originated from a discussion on the WikiEN-I mailing list >> where >> some level of consensus was reached between the free-speech and >> content >> suppression parties that a technical solution is possible that will >> go a >> long way towards satisfying most mainstream positions in the debate. >> >> - and add the following text: >> >> However, it should be stressed that this page is ''not'' intended >> to imply >> that this is a fait accompli, but merely an initial >> exploration of >> the specification and feasibility of a possible solution. The >> features >> described below are ''not'' currently under development, and will >> certainly >> not be made live until their desirability has been firmly >> established. >> >> Are you saying that this is false, and making out that saying this is >> "vandalism"? > > Yes that is false, he did not add the second bit. > > Christiaan From rowan.collins at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 18:49:24 2005 From: rowan.collins at gmail.com (Rowan Collins) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 18:49:24 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <20050224180757.GI25721@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <421DD3DD.6030209@gmail.com> <8531a6dfc9c7201c5e2dfd2b57861f51@last-straw.net> <20050224180757.GI25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <9f02ca4c0502241049132b4f2b@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 05:07:57 +1100, David Gerard wrote: > What Gerard actually did with the above edit was take this paragraph: This is just a non-permanent diff links problem :) The edit in question was unquestionably vandalism. The edit you're looking at it is me trying to be helpful; the one Christiaan posted (or meant to) was a revert of blanking the whole page. For future reference, when pointing out vandalism always post: a) the diff were the vandalism took place; or b) the version with the vandalism in because links to "diff between current and last version" change as soon as there is a different "current" version. -- Rowan Collins BSc [IMSoP] From christiaan at last-straw.net Thu Feb 24 18:58:01 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 18:58:01 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <9f02ca4c0502241049132b4f2b@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050223053951.63441.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c050223100761574d6e@mail.gmail.com> <82256297924c146e19e4976663504a95@last-straw.net> <909f691905ffcafc4ed2da927a659e72@last-straw.net> <421DCE53.1000409@gmail.com> <421DD0E3.7010500@runawaynet.com> <421DD3DD.6030209@gmail.com> <8531a6dfc9c7201c5e2dfd2b57861f51@last-straw.net> <20050224180757.GI25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <9f02ca4c0502241049132b4f2b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Oh, thanks, I thought I was going nuts for a second there! Christiaan On 24 Feb 2005, at 6:49 pm, Rowan Collins wrote: > On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 05:07:57 +1100, David Gerard > wrote: >> What Gerard actually did with the above edit was take this paragraph: > > > > This is just a non-permanent diff links problem :) The edit in > question was unquestionably vandalism. > The edit you're looking at it is me trying to be helpful; the one > Christiaan posted (or meant to) was a revert of blanking the whole > page. > > For future reference, when pointing out vandalism always post: > a) the diff were the vandalism took place; or > b) the version with the vandalism in > because links to "diff between current and last version" change as > soon as there is a different "current" version. > > -- > Rowan Collins BSc > [IMSoP] From fun at thingy.apana.org.au Thu Feb 24 19:44:59 2005 From: fun at thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 06:44:59 +1100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia Message-ID: <20050224194459.GJ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Christiaan Briggs christiaan at last-straw.net: :On 24 Feb 2005, at 6:49 pm, Rowan Collins wrote: :> On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 05:07:57 +1100, David Gerard :> wrote: :>> What Gerard actually did with the above edit was take this paragraph: :> This is just a non-permanent diff links problem :) The edit in :> question was unquestionably vandalism. :> The edit you're looking at it is me trying to be helpful; the one :> Christiaan posted (or meant to) was a revert of blanking the whole :> page. :Oh, thanks, I thought I was going nuts for a second there! You're right - looking at the history, that would be disrupting to make a point. This is probably not a helpful thing to do in a hot debate. Is the present version sufficient for you? It's pretty much OK by me. GerardM? - d. From gerard.meijssen at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 20:04:40 2005 From: gerard.meijssen at gmail.com (Gerard Meijssen) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 21:04:40 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <20050224194459.GJ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> References: <20050224194459.GJ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: <421E3358.5020803@gmail.com> David Gerard wrote: >Christiaan Briggs christiaan at last-straw.net: >:On 24 Feb 2005, at 6:49 pm, Rowan Collins wrote: >:> On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 05:07:57 +1100, David Gerard >:> wrote: > >:>> What Gerard actually did with the above edit was take this paragraph: > >:> This is just a non-permanent diff links problem :) The edit in >:> question was unquestionably vandalism. >:> The edit you're looking at it is me trying to be helpful; the one >:> Christiaan posted (or meant to) was a revert of blanking the whole >:> page. > >:Oh, thanks, I thought I was going nuts for a second there! > > >You're right - looking at the history, that would be disrupting to make a >point. This is probably not a helpful thing to do in a hot debate. > >Is the present version sufficient for you? It's pretty much OK by me. >GerardM? > > >- d. > Hoi, First of all, The current version is not sufficient. It does not address any of the concerns that I have about this thing. My point has been consistently been reverted and if it wasn't such an important issue I would have found it a rediculous issue. All the comments that I had added have been moved away and it now gives the impression that it is a squaky clean suggestion and that it is not controversial at all. Secondly, you state that it was vandalism. Fine, then what label does the manner that my contributions were treated with deserve ? This whole proposal is about introducing censorship into the wikimedia projects and it should be introduced into the Mediawiki software itself. Images are only to be used after carefull consideration. Default settings have to be found to prevent the public from seeing "offensive" material. What offensive material is, is not specified. It is denied that it has anything to do with censorship. The arguments about this are hiden in a discussion that was held on the en:wikipedia mailing list. All stuff that is in opposition to this proposal is moved away to a place that does not even discuss why this idea would be proper. Now you ask me if the current version is sufficient ? On a different subject. Angela has rightfully complained that this subject is not what the Foundation mailing list is for. This is the reason why I have stopped responding on this list. But as it has not stopped and I have been asked a direct question Thanks, No thanks ! Gerard From rowan.collins at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 20:22:59 2005 From: rowan.collins at gmail.com (Rowan Collins) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:22:59 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421E3358.5020803@gmail.com> References: <20050224194459.GJ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <421E3358.5020803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9f02ca4c05022412221a4d46b@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 21:04:40 +0100, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > Hoi, > First of all, The current version is not sufficient. It does not address > any of the concerns that I have about this thing. No, but it does state *why* it doesn't address them, and point to another page reserved specifically *for* addressing them. > This whole proposal is about introducing censorship into the wikimedia > projects and it should be introduced into the Mediawiki software itself. "...should be introduced"? I see only a discussion of how it *could* be implemented. That is what my extra sentence was trying to make clear. > [...] The arguments about this are > hiden in a discussion that was held on the en:wikipedia mailing list. > All stuff that is in opposition to this proposal is moved away to a > place that does not even discuss why this idea would be proper. Your second sentence contradicts your first (they're not hidden away, they've been moved to a page you're not satisfied with). *So use that place to discuss those issues.* Christiaan et al have stated that the particular page in question is not intended to cover those issues, and I don't think the fact that one debate is separated into 2 pages, each covering a well-defined aspect, is "hiding" or "denying" anything; it's separating it. Clearly, both sides have strong opinions on this, but if people want to explore the technical possibilities *at the same time as* the desirability, then who are you to stop them? The statement I added, making clear that this was *not* a "fait accompli", and was *not* actively in development, and would *not* be carried through without discussion of its desirability, seems to be approved by the authors/backers of that page, and so presumably reflects their own claim. Do you not believe them? Because if you *do* believe them, then you should be able to carry on making the case for the undesirability, and ignore their technical musings in the hope [or, indeed, belief] that such will have been a waste of time once you have presented a well-argued and coherent case why it would be a bad idea to try. > On a different subject. Angela has rightfully complained that this > subject is not what the Foundation mailing list is for. Yes, apologies to those who are annoyed by this traffic; moving threads to a better forum is not something that mailing lists are good at. :( In fact, I should probably have refrained from being drawn so far into this debate anyway... -- Rowan Collins BSc [IMSoP] From gerard.meijssen at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 20:46:38 2005 From: gerard.meijssen at gmail.com (Gerard Meijssen) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 21:46:38 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <9f02ca4c05022412221a4d46b@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050224194459.GJ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <421E3358.5020803@gmail.com> <9f02ca4c05022412221a4d46b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <421E3D2E.5020601@gmail.com> Rowan Collins wrote: >On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 21:04:40 +0100, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > > >>Hoi, >>First of all, The current version is not sufficient. It does not address >>any of the concerns that I have about this thing. >> >> > >No, but it does state *why* it doesn't address them, and point to >another page reserved specifically *for* addressing them. > > Which is where they do not justify their own proposal. So in essence it is just a move to rid themselves of what they see as off topic. > > >>This whole proposal is about introducing censorship into the wikimedia >>projects and it should be introduced into the Mediawiki software itself. >> >> > >"...should be introduced"? I see only a discussion of how it *could* >be implemented. That is what my extra sentence was trying to make >clear. > > > My mistake, it is not my mother language :) >>[...] The arguments about this are >>hiden in a discussion that was held on the en:wikipedia mailing list. >>All stuff that is in opposition to this proposal is moved away to a >>place that does not even discuss why this idea would be proper. >> >> > >Your second sentence contradicts your first (they're not hidden away, >they've been moved to a page you're not satisfied with). *So use that >place to discuss those issues.* Christiaan et al have stated that the >particular page in question is not intended to cover those issues, and >I don't think the fact that one debate is separated into 2 pages, each >covering a well-defined aspect, is "hiding" or "denying" anything; >it's separating it. > > The discussion was moved from the talk page. It is now out of contex as the stuff it reacts to is not there. The argument is, that this reflects what was discussed on the en:wikipedia mailing list. They have not given the arguments in there and use it as justification for their proposal for this censoring mechanism. >Clearly, both sides have strong opinions on this, but if people want >to explore the technical possibilities *at the same time as* the >desirability, then who are you to stop them? > >The statement I added, making clear that this was *not* a "fait >accompli", and was *not* actively in development, and would *not* be >carried through without discussion of its desirability, seems to be >approved by the authors/backers of that page, and so presumably >reflects their own claim. > >Do you not believe them? Because if you *do* believe them, then you >should be able to carry on making the case for the undesirability, and >ignore their technical musings in the hope [or, indeed, belief] that >such will have been a waste of time once you have presented a >well-argued and coherent case why it would be a bad idea to try. > What is there to believe. I can believe that they assume that this will be all the censorship we will have. I do believe that this is the beginning of the end of a free encyclopeida that aims tp contain all knowledge. They will say that this is a straw mans argument. :( So what is there but frustration. Frustration for seeing that censorship is being pushed. The worst thing is that I can see them get this censorship thing into Mediawiki because there is always someone capable and willing of coding this. Thanks, No thanks ! GerardM From maveric149 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 24 21:12:52 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:12:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 6 Fund Drive Report In-Reply-To: <20050223204308.55412.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050224211253.26974.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> On Day 6 (Wednesday 23 February eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not available in UTC) we made $5,197.09 (USD equivalent) through a combination of PayPal (completed payments only) and mail donations (no updates available for other sources at this time). This is a decrease of 22.48% from Day 5 and represents 11.16% of total funds collected so far ($46,474.53 ; only counting full days) and 6.93% of our goal ($75,000). At the end of Day 6 we had reached 62.07% of our goal. We were continuing to have server issues on Day 6. See http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/February_2005_server_crash for details (if you can access that page) Day 6 Day 5 comparison Breakdown: PayPal USD equiv USD equiv %change AUD 60.71 $47.99 $33.37 43.79% CAD 173.29 $140.42 $232.80 -39.68% EUR 1143.72 $1,495.07 $2,553.09 -41.44% GBP 447.17 $848.64 $595.47 42.52% JPY 19582 $185.62 $130.73 41.98% USD 2404.35 $2,404.35 $3,158.91 -23.89% PayPal total: $5,122.09 $6,704.38 -23.60% MoneyBookers no data no data -na- Mail/Post $75.00 no data 100.00% TOTAL $5,197.09 $6,704.38 -22.48% Grand totals so far (only counting complete days) PayPal USD equiv %GrandTotal AUD 1257.71 $994.22 2.14% CAD 2145.86 $1,738.79 3.74% EUR 12487.24 $16,323.32 35.07% GBP 2398.41 $4,551.70 9.78% JPY 123678 $1,172.34 2.52% USD 21267.46 $21,267.46 45.69% PayPal total: $46,047.84 Moneybookers: $426.69 0.92% Mail/Post $75.00 0.16% GRAND TOTAL $46,549.53 100.00% % toward goal 62.07% For the most recent grand total and other details visit http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 Some selected comments from Day 6: See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_6 "power to the pedia!" by Anonymous "Super Site!" by Urs Schwerzmann "A most delightful time waster!" by Shreesh Taskar "Que viva la educacion gratuita" by Dennis Salcedo "My first stop when I want to get started on a new topic." by Joel Gilmore "I use wiki's nearly every day, thank you for your service hopefully my small contribution will increase when i get out of college! :)" by Anonymous "Symbolic gesture of appreciation. Wikipedia is important." by Thomas Herzog "Thanks for all the hard work everyone has put into this project." by Steven Schulz "After learning so much from your site, I owe you at least this. (Woooo! Cheaper than college!)" by Anonymous "What a great idea. Probably the most useful site on the Internet for a poor college student like me." by David Klorig "For the fundraiser; Get better response times, please!" by David Barbour Some of my favorites: "Wisdom of the Crowds rules the Long Tail" by Anonymous "Once in a lifetime someone comes up with a great idea that improves the democracy of ideas (PI)" by Anonymous "A better world is possible -- and this is an example of that better world" by grupoHuracan Corporation "If you believe, like me, that this sort of thing is the future, then you are obligated to contribute. I am happy to do so." by Anonymous "wikipedia has saved my ass more times than id like to admit" by Louise Noble "Where would the world be without Wikimedia?" by Emily Baker "The Bear wishes you well" by Anonymous "thanks for wikipedia. the revolution will be wikified." by Jeremy Friedman "Bravo" by Anonymous Oh, and: "Can I make it to mav's favorites? ;-)" by Anonymous (well, almost :) Daniel Mayer, Wikimedia CFO __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From christiaan at last-straw.net Thu Feb 24 21:13:22 2005 From: christiaan at last-straw.net (Christiaan Briggs) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 21:13:22 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Conflict resolution on meta Wikimedia In-Reply-To: <421E3D2E.5020601@gmail.com> References: <20050224194459.GJ25721@thingy.apana.org.au> <421E3358.5020803@gmail.com> <9f02ca4c05022412221a4d46b@mail.gmail.com> <421E3D2E.5020601@gmail.com> Message-ID: Gerard Meijssen wrote: > Rowan Collins wrote: > >> Gerard Meijssen wrote: >> >>> Hoi, >>> First of all, The current version is not sufficient. It does not >>> address any of the concerns that I have about this thing. >> >> No, but it does state *why* it doesn't address them, and point to >> another page reserved specifically *for* addressing them. >> > Which is where they do not justify their own proposal. So in essence > it is just a move to rid themselves of what they see as off topic. I would suggest a little patience Gerard. I hope to post some pros and cons in the next couple of days. I've spent a lot of my time dealing with vandalism etc., so you'll have to excuse me for not having the time for more constructive things. Christiaan From maveric149 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 24 21:54:51 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:54:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 6 Fund Drive Report (minor error) In-Reply-To: <20050224211253.26974.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050224215451.44347.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> Minor error (not worth a full repost) In the second paragraph I mistakingly gave the grand total minus mail donations. That figure should be $46,549.53 *not* $46,474.53 -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball. http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/ From maveric149 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 25 23:04:03 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:04:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 6 Fund Drive Report In-Reply-To: <20050224211253.26974.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050225230403.9081.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> On Day 7 (Thursday 24 February eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not available in UTC) we made $$5,421.02 (USD equivalent) through a combination of PayPal (completed payments only) and mail donations (no updates available for other sources at this time). This is a decrease of 5.84% from Day 6 and represents 10.43% of total funds collected so far ($51,970.55 ; only counting full days) and 7.23% of our goal ($75,000). At the end of Day 6 we had reached 69.29% of our goal. For information on our recent server issues see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/February_2005_server_crash Day 7 Day 6 comparison Breakdown: PayPal USD equiv USD equiv %change AUD 76.00 $60.08 $47.99 25.19% CAD 320.73 $259.89 $140.42 85.08% EUR 1045.41 $1,366.56 $1,495.07 -8.60% GBP 353.22 $670.34 $848.64 -21.01% JPY 10455 $99.10 $185.62 -46.61% USD 2670.05 $2,670.05 $2,404.35 11.05% PayPal total: $5,126.02 $5,122.09 0.08% MoneyBookers no data $0.00 0.00% Mail/Post $295.00 $75.00 293.33% TOTAL $5,421.02 $5,122.09 5.84% Grand totals so far (only counting complete days) PayPal USD equiv %GrandTotal AUD 1333.71 $1,054.30 2.03% CAD 2466.59 $1,998.68 3.85% EUR 13532.65 $17,689.88 34.04% GBP 2751.63 $5,222.04 10.05% JPY 134133 $1,271.45 2.45% USD 23937.51 $23,937.51 46.06% PayPal total: $51,173.86 Moneybookers: $426.69 0.82% Mail/Post $370.00 0.71% GRAND TOTAL $51,970.55 100.00% % toward goal 69.29% For the most recent grand total and other details visit http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 Some selected comments from Day 7: See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_7 "To prevent commercialization of knowledge" by Anonymous "Great site: my favourite and most visited since using the internet!" by Andrew O'Callaghan "this site embodies the progressive possibilities of the internet" by Anonymous "The best purpose for donation I can think of." by Anonymous "Keep up the good work! It will forces the other encyclopedies to evolve: and the user will get a double benefit: a good wikipedia, and better Encarta and others encyclopedies..." by Anonymous "This is the first time I have donated on line. You should be very proud of what you have created." by Anonymous "Wikimedia, a terrific open source project of knowledge" by Alexander Orlov "here's to FDLing all the knowledge in da universe! keep up the good work :-)" by Anonymous "detailed relevant answsers to my off the cuff technical questions. thank you." by David McMillan "Pour une encyclopedie si utile." by Gabriel D. Matthews "Long Live Freedom" by Anonymous "Astonishingly useful!" by Navarro Parker Some of my favorites: "I love philanthropy" by Anonymous "Because I owe Dysprosia 5$" by Jonathan Cary "This is Harry donating to Wikimedia. I come here everyday and I think that it is important to support this foundation." by Robert Gilbert "Testing paypal script, more donations to come, I promise!" x 3 by Michael Becker "Wikipedia helps me drop clue bombs on people." by Michael Styne "I love the sound of the click as I point my wallet at worthy causes." by Jeremy Smith "Onwards and upwards!" by Yuri Astrakhan Daniel Mayer, Wikimedia CFO __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From maveric149 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 25 23:05:25 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:05:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 7 Fund Drive Report In-Reply-To: <20050224211253.26974.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050225230525.98116.qmail@web51601.mail.yahoo.com> On Day 7 (Thursday 24 February eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not available in UTC) we made $$5,421.02 (USD equivalent) through a combination of PayPal (completed payments only) and mail donations (no updates available for other sources at this time). This is a decrease of 5.84% from Day 6 and represents 10.43% of total funds collected so far ($51,970.55 ; only counting full days) and 7.23% of our goal ($75,000). At the end of Day 6 we had reached 69.29% of our goal. For information on our recent server issues see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/February_2005_server_crash Day 7 Day 6 comparison Breakdown: PayPal USD equiv USD equiv %change AUD 76.00 $60.08 $47.99 25.19% CAD 320.73 $259.89 $140.42 85.08% EUR 1045.41 $1,366.56 $1,495.07 -8.60% GBP 353.22 $670.34 $848.64 -21.01% JPY 10455 $99.10 $185.62 -46.61% USD 2670.05 $2,670.05 $2,404.35 11.05% PayPal total: $5,126.02 $5,122.09 0.08% MoneyBookers no data $0.00 0.00% Mail/Post $295.00 $75.00 293.33% TOTAL $5,421.02 $5,122.09 5.84% Grand totals so far (only counting complete days) PayPal USD equiv %GrandTotal AUD 1333.71 $1,054.30 2.03% CAD 2466.59 $1,998.68 3.85% EUR 13532.65 $17,689.88 34.04% GBP 2751.63 $5,222.04 10.05% JPY 134133 $1,271.45 2.45% USD 23937.51 $23,937.51 46.06% PayPal total: $51,173.86 Moneybookers: $426.69 0.82% Mail/Post $370.00 0.71% GRAND TOTAL $51,970.55 100.00% % toward goal 69.29% For the most recent grand total and other details visit http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 Some selected comments from Day 7: See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_7 "To prevent commercialization of knowledge" by Anonymous "Great site: my favourite and most visited since using the internet!" by Andrew O'Callaghan "this site embodies the progressive possibilities of the internet" by Anonymous "The best purpose for donation I can think of." by Anonymous "Keep up the good work! It will forces the other encyclopedies to evolve: and the user will get a double benefit: a good wikipedia, and better Encarta and others encyclopedies..." by Anonymous "This is the first time I have donated on line. You should be very proud of what you have created." by Anonymous "Wikimedia, a terrific open source project of knowledge" by Alexander Orlov "here's to FDLing all the knowledge in da universe! keep up the good work :-)" by Anonymous "detailed relevant answsers to my off the cuff technical questions. thank you." by David McMillan "Pour une encyclopedie si utile." by Gabriel D. Matthews "Long Live Freedom" by Anonymous "Astonishingly useful!" by Navarro Parker Some of my favorites: "I love philanthropy" by Anonymous "Because I owe Dysprosia 5$" by Jonathan Cary "This is Harry donating to Wikimedia. I come here everyday and I think that it is important to support this foundation." by Robert Gilbert "Testing paypal script, more donations to come, I promise!" x 3 by Michael Becker "Wikipedia helps me drop clue bombs on people." by Michael Styne "I love the sound of the click as I point my wallet at worthy causes." by Jeremy Smith "Onwards and upwards!" by Yuri Astrakhan Daniel Mayer, Wikimedia CFO __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From maveric149 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 25 23:20:58 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:20:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: opps (was: Re: [Foundation-l] Day 6 Fund Drive Report ) In-Reply-To: <20050225230403.9081.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050225232058.95335.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> That subject line obviously should read 'Day 7 Fund Report'. Sorry folks! -- mav --- Daniel Mayer wrote: > On Day 7 (Thursday 24 February eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not > available in UTC) we made $$5,421.02 (USD equivalent) through a combination > of > PayPal (completed payments only) and mail donations (no updates available for > other sources at this time). > > This is a decrease of 5.84% from Day 6 and represents 10.43% of total funds > collected so far ($51,970.55 ; only counting full days) and 7.23% of our goal > ($75,000). At the end of Day 6 we had reached 69.29% of our goal. > > For information on our recent server issues see > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/February_2005_server_crash > > Day 7 Day 6 comparison > Breakdown: > PayPal USD equiv USD equiv %change > AUD 76.00 $60.08 $47.99 25.19% > CAD 320.73 $259.89 $140.42 85.08% > EUR 1045.41 $1,366.56 $1,495.07 -8.60% > GBP 353.22 $670.34 $848.64 -21.01% > JPY 10455 $99.10 $185.62 -46.61% > USD 2670.05 $2,670.05 $2,404.35 11.05% > PayPal total: $5,126.02 $5,122.09 0.08% > > > MoneyBookers no data $0.00 0.00% > Mail/Post $295.00 $75.00 293.33% > > TOTAL $5,421.02 $5,122.09 5.84% > > > Grand totals so far (only counting complete days) > > PayPal USD equiv %GrandTotal > AUD 1333.71 $1,054.30 2.03% > CAD 2466.59 $1,998.68 3.85% > EUR 13532.65 $17,689.88 34.04% > GBP 2751.63 $5,222.04 10.05% > JPY 134133 $1,271.45 2.45% > USD 23937.51 $23,937.51 46.06% > PayPal total: $51,173.86 > > > Moneybookers: $426.69 0.82% > Mail/Post $370.00 0.71% > > GRAND TOTAL $51,970.55 100.00% > > % toward goal 69.29% > > For the most recent grand total and other details visit > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 > > Some selected comments from Day 7: > See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_7 > > "To prevent commercialization of knowledge" by Anonymous > > "Great site: my favourite and most visited since using the internet!" by > Andrew > O'Callaghan > > "this site embodies the progressive possibilities of the internet" by > Anonymous > > "The best purpose for donation I can think of." by Anonymous > > "Keep up the good work! It will forces the other encyclopedies to evolve: and > the user will get a double benefit: a good wikipedia, and better Encarta and > others encyclopedies..." by Anonymous > > "This is the first time I have donated on line. You should be very proud of > what you have created." by Anonymous > > "Wikimedia, a terrific open source project of knowledge" by Alexander Orlov > > "here's to FDLing all the knowledge in da universe! keep up the good work > :-)" > by Anonymous > > "detailed relevant answsers to my off the cuff technical questions. thank > you." > by David McMillan > > "Pour une encyclopedie si utile." by Gabriel D. Matthews > > "Long Live Freedom" by Anonymous > > "Astonishingly useful!" by Navarro Parker > > Some of my favorites: > > "I love philanthropy" by Anonymous > > "Because I owe Dysprosia 5$" by Jonathan Cary > > "This is Harry donating to Wikimedia. I come here everyday and I think that > it > is important to support this foundation." by Robert Gilbert > > "Testing paypal script, more donations to come, I promise!" x 3 by Michael > Becker > > "Wikipedia helps me drop clue bombs on people." by Michael Styne > > "I love the sound of the click as I point my wallet at worthy causes." by > Jeremy Smith > > "Onwards and upwards!" by Yuri Astrakhan > > > Daniel Mayer, > Wikimedia CFO > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From erik_moeller at gmx.de Sat Feb 26 11:17:53 2005 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 12:17:53 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikinews: New State of the Wiki report Message-ID: <42205AE1.7050705@gmx.de> I've written a new, detailed report on the current state of the Wikinews project. If you haven't kept up, or want to read my opinions on where we are headed, the report is at: http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/User:Eloquence/State_of_the_Wiki Comments are welcome. All best, Erik From kissall at gmail.com Sat Feb 26 19:32:43 2005 From: kissall at gmail.com (Kiss All) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:32:43 -0600 Subject: [Foundation-l] Do we have server monitors for wikipedia machines? Message-ID: <384f6ad4050226113245417633@mail.gmail.com> I consistently have trouble to access http://en.wikipedia.org today, though I can slowly access http://wikipedia.org/ and http://zh.wikipedia.org/. What is the problem? Do we have server monitors for those machines? If not, I suggest to use some third party service to monitor the server's uptime and performance, like http://www.siteuptime.com or http://www.elkmonitor.com/. I guess there are some free service provider available. We need to insure the uptime for major server, otherwise, we are going to lose users. -- Be good.... From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 26 22:12:29 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 14:12:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 8 Fund Drive Report In-Reply-To: <20050225230525.98116.qmail@web51601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050226221229.11958.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> On Day 8 (Friday 25 February eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not available in UTC) we made $3,735.10 (USD equivalent) through PayPal (completed payments only; no updates available for other sources at this time). This is a decrease of 27.13% from Day 7 and represents 6.71% of total funds collected so far ($55,705.64 ; only counting full days) and 4.98% of our goal ($75,000). At the end of Day 8 we had reached 74.27% of our goal. For information on our recent server issues see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/February_2005_server_crash Day 8 Day 7 comparison Breakdown: PayPal USD equiv USD equiv %change AUD 94.09 $74.38 $60.08 23.80% CAD 221.44 $179.43 $259.89 -30.96% EUR 729.52 $953.63 $1,366.56 -30.22% GBP 123.32 $234.04 $670.34 -65.09% JPY 3780 $35.83 $99.10 -63.85% USD 2257.79 $2,257.79 $2,670.05 -15.44% PayPal total: $3,735.10 $5,126.02 -27.13% MoneyBookers no data $0.00 0.00% Mail/Post no data $295.00 -100.00% TOTAL $3,735.10 $5,126.02 -27.13% Grand totals so far (only counting complete days) PayPal USD equiv %GrandTotal AUD 1427.80 $1,128.68 2.03% CAD 2688.03 $2,178.11 3.91% EUR 14262.17 $18,643.51 33.47% GBP 2874.95 $5,456.08 9.79% JPY 137913 $1,307.28 2.35% USD 26195.30 $26,195.30 47.02% PayPal total: $54,908.95 Moneybookers: $426.69 0.77% Mail/Post $370.00 0.66% GRAND TOTAL $55,705.64 100.00% % toward goal 74.27% For the most recent grand total and other details visit http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 Some selected comments from Day 8: See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_8 "You guys are fantastic! Keep up the good work" by World of Worlds "Wikipedia is a great info source, but it needs more bandwidth!" by David Chipman "A great site! My kids love it and use it often" by Anonymous "Pour un savoir commun, libre et gratuit." by Anonymous "I am an information addict because of you wikipedia. I love you." by Anonymous "La informacion quiere ser libre" by Paredes Olay Francisco Javier "Small price to pay to keep knowledge free... and reduce my cynicism!" by Anonymous "I am so grateful for your wonderful site." by Anonymous "Wikimedia is doing GREAT things, I'm proud to support them." by Jeff Moats "weiter so !" by Anonymous "I really enjoy using your site. As an educator it is a excellent resource and use it all the time." by Howard Sims "We love Wikipedia! Thank you for making knowledge so accessible!" by John Noe "You are the best!" by Rodrigo Ventura "vive le libre =)" by Le bisou Some of my favorites: "Without doubt this is one of the few sites that make the internet worthwhile." by Nicholas Penney "Wikimedia is the epitome of what the Internet should be: For the public, By the public." by Ezra Pincus-Roth "Wikipedia is the best source of quality information I have ever found in my extensive use of the Internet. My gratitude to everyone's contributions to the content that makes this a wonderful success." by Anonymous "you keep it free and unbiased and i'll be contributing double every drive." by Anonymous "This is the future." by David Altman "Go baby go, go!" by Anonymous Daniel Mayer, Wikimedia CFO __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From yann at forget-me.net Sun Feb 27 14:07:01 2005 From: yann at forget-me.net (Yann Forget) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 15:07:01 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [Wikimediafr-l] donations Message-ID: <200502271507.02130.yann@forget-me.net> Hi, Can someone answer him ? Subject: [Wikimediafr-l] donations Date: Sunday 27 February 2005 06:49 From: Dean Rivando To: wikimediafr-l at wikimedia.org Hi there, I would like to donate, but I will only do so if I receive a tax credit in Canada. Can you please advise me whether you have charitable status with the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency and whether donations made in Canada are tax deductible. thanks, Dean Rivando -- http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 27 15:27:28 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 07:27:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [Wikimediafr-l] donations In-Reply-To: <200502271507.02130.yann@forget-me.net> Message-ID: <20050227152728.73410.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> > Subject: [Wikimediafr-l] donations > Date: Sunday 27 February 2005 06:49 > From: Dean Rivando > To: wikimediafr-l at wikimedia.org > > I would like to donate, but I will only do so if I receive a tax credit in > Canada. Can you please advise me whether you have charitable status with > the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency and whether donations made in Canada > are tax deductible. While we are almost certainly are about to get tax exempt status in the United States we have not yet explored that possibility for other nations. This may require the formation of a Wikimedia chapter in Canada but we have not yet looked into this. Rest assured that once we have tax exempt status in the United States we will explore ways to directly gain similar status in other nations where possible and encourage the creation of national chapters where not. -- Daniel Mayer __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball. http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/ From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 27 20:30:03 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:30:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Day 9 Fund Drive Report In-Reply-To: <20050226221229.11958.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050227203003.42098.qmail@web51609.mail.yahoo.com> On Day 9 (Saturday 26 February eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not available in UTC) we made $5,869.19 (USD equivalent) through PayPal (completed payments only; no updates available for other sources at this time). This is an increase of 57.14% from Day 8 and represents 10.54% of total funds collected so far ($61,574.83 ; only counting full days) and 7.83% of our goal ($75,000). At the end of Day 9 we had reached 82.10% of our goal. Day 9 Day 8 comparison Breakdown: PayPal USD equiv USD equiv %change AUD 191.00 $150.99 $74.38 103.00% CAD 268.97 $217.95 $179.43 21.46% EUR 1149.90 $1,503.15 $953.63 57.62% GBP 475.11 $901.66 $234.04 285.27% JPY 16245 $153.99 $35.83 329.76% USD 2941.46 $2,941.46 $2,257.79 30.28% PayPal total: $5,869.19 $3,735.10 57.14% MoneyBookers no data $0.00 0.00% Mail/Post no data $0.00 0.00% TOTAL $5,869.19 $3,735.10 57.14% Grand totals so far (only counting complete days) PayPal USD equiv %GrandTotal AUD 1618.80 $1,279.66 2.08% CAD 2957.00 $2,396.06 3.89% EUR 15412.07 $20,146.66 32.72% GBP 3350.06 $6,357.74 10.33% JPY 154158.00 $1,461.26 2.37% USD 29136.76 $29,136.76 47.32% PayPal total: $60,778.14 Moneybookers: $426.69 0.69% Mail/Post $370.00 0.60% GRAND TOTAL $61,574.83 100.00% % toward goal 82.10% For the most recent grand total and other details visit http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 Some selected comments from Day 9: See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_9 "Very handy resource, keep up the great work." by Anonymous "Gladly support the Great Wikipedia Project" by Grant Slater "I teach history and geography and use Wikipedia weekly. Excellent, easy to access source of information." by Tom Gleason "Viva la information revolution!" by Anonymous "Great public project. Everyone should contribute financially and with their editing efforts" by Bernard Farrell "Das ist echte Wissens-Allmende!" by Adolf J Winterer "Wikipedia is an invaluable research tool." by Anonymous "Nothing compares to Wikipedia. It's the greatest informer." by Niels Buus "A shining example of what the net is really all about." by William Finley "MY COLLEGE STUDENTS DEPEND ON WIKIPEDIA; I so appreciate its well researched articles on musical genres, especially" by Anonymous "Keep it free & non-biased high quality!" by Anonymous "I sent $1200 during your last fundraising drive. Here's $50 more for good measure. Enjoy, and keep up the good work! Thanks, -David" by Anonymous "By the people for the people" by Andrew Black Some of my favorites: "because freedom isn't free" by Anonymous "De omni re scibili et quibusdam aliis." by Berteun Damman "Love the site, hope you reach your goal easily and then some" by Mark Bullard Jr "Keep it Going. the records of the passage of time and events are no less important than food and drink." by Zia imaging "Oh all the services out there on the internet, I think this is one of the most deserving of support. Thanks, very much!" by Michael Bierschenk "...Wikipedia has already supplanted the great Encyclopedia Galactica as the standard repository of all knowledge and wisdom..." (with apologies to Douglas Adams)" by Christopher Allen "Ciao" by Anonymous Daniel Mayer, Wikimedia CFO __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball. http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/ From saintonge at telus.net Sun Feb 27 21:53:20 2005 From: saintonge at telus.net (Ray Saintonge) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 13:53:20 -0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [Wikimediafr-l] donations In-Reply-To: <200502271507.02130.yann@forget-me.net> References: <200502271507.02130.yann@forget-me.net> Message-ID: <42224150.20907@telus.net> Yann Forget wrote: >Hi, > >Can someone answer him ? > >From: Dean Rivando > >Hi there, > >I would like to donate, but I will only do so if I receive a tax credit in > Canada. Can you please advise me whether you have charitable status with the > Canada Customs and Revenue Agency and whether donations made in Canada are > tax deductible. > This is not available, and it could be a long while before it is. Canadian tax relief for foreign donations applies only in limited circumstances. One of those might be if you have US source income. For practical purposes getting tax relief in Canada depends on having an organization that is registered as a charity in Canada. Part of the application process includes submitting a recent financial statements, and that can't be done until there's an organization. Once the organization is registered the donated funds must be used to support Canadian operations. There are circumstances where a Canadian structiore would be beneficial, but an organization would be needed first, and I haven't seen much interest expressed in that. Ec From anthere9 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 28 02:05:53 2005 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 03:05:53 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Day 1 Fund Drive Report References: <20050218191814.31540.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> <20050219094346.58768.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> <453b6e505021908173a4f567d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42227C81.7060607@yahoo.com> It would be nice if a compendium is made at the end of the fund drive, with collection of many languages. We could host that on foundation wiki. Could editors from various languages isolate the best quotes ? Anthere notafish a ?crit: > Little international addition to the interesting quotes ;-) > > No des pescado: ense?a a pescar. by Alberto Gaona > "Don't give fish, teach how to fish." > > Bravo ? cette formidable initiative pour d?mocratiser la connaissance > ! by Guillaume Lasnier > "Bravo to this wonderful initiative destined to democratize knowledge!" > > Wissen ist die Waffe der Gewaltlosigkeit. by Arnim Faryn > "Knowledge is the weapon of non-violence." > > and my favorite ones ;-) > > Bon j'irais pas au restau aujourd'hui ;o). by Fabrice Terrasson > "Ok, I won't go to the restaurant today ;o)" > > > Is there really a 200 character max? really? really? really? really? > really? really? really? really? really? really? really? really? > really? really? really? really? really? really? really? really? ok by > anonymous. > > > On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 01:43:46 -0800 (PST), Daniel Mayer > wrote: > >>On Day 1 (Friday eastern US timezone since PayPal data are not available in >>UTC) we made $9,939.47 (USD equivalent) through a combination of PayPal and >>MoneyBookers. >> >>PayPal breakdown: >>AUD 314.03 (247.27 USD) >>CAD 334.40 (271.58 USD) >>EUR 3413.75 (4464.75 USD) >>GBP 475.17 (899.77 USD) >>JPY 28340 (269 USD) >>USD 3424.63 >>Total 9576.78 (USD equivalent) >> >>Moneybookers: >>$362.69 (USD equivalent) >> >>For the most recent grand total and other details visit >>http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1 >> >>Some selected comments from Day 1: >>See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fund_drives/2005/Q1/Day_1 >> >>"Knowledge isn't a possession - it cannot be monopolized." by Robert K Bell >> >>"You guys rock!!" by Anonymous >> >>"Fantastic system - best of luck from a Random Page addict" " by Steve Agland >> >>"Wikipedia is Hope" by Anonymous >> >>"Ignorance breeds fear, use information to gain knowledge and empower yourself >>with Peace" by Anonymous >> >>"Wikipedia is a splendid way of sharing information. Lets do this!" by >>Anonymous >> >>"You guys do a fantastic job!!!" by Guoming Sun >> >>"You have helped me in college and in life. I don't have much money, and I've >>never given a donation. But if any cause is worthy, it is your own. Thank you" >>by Ryan Lewis >> >>"Wikipedia, is there anything it can't do?" by Anonymous >> >>"If you read this note, donate!" by Anonymous >> >>"It's Not Much But Every Individual's Contribution Counts! What The Wiki Is All >>About!" by Anonymous >> >>And my personal favorites: >> >>"For not deleting at least some articles" by Vladimir Mozhenkov >> >>"Wikipedia: Destroyer of productivity; love of my life." by Anonymous >> >>"bonk" by Anonymous >> > From maveric149 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 28 04:27:10 2005 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 20:27:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Day 1 Fund Drive Report In-Reply-To: <42227C81.7060607@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050228042711.78111.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Anthere wrote: > It would be nice if a compendium is made at the end of the fund drive, > with collection of many languages. > > We could host that on foundation wiki. Yes - that would be neat. I'd also like to conduct a survey to see why people donated, why they didn't, and what can be improved for the next fund drive. -- mav __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chris_mahan at yahoo.com Mon Feb 28 20:03:19 2005 From: chris_mahan at yahoo.com (Christopher Mahan) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:03:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [Wikimediafr-l] donations In-Reply-To: <200502271507.02130.yann@forget-me.net> Message-ID: <20050228200320.6074.qmail@web14022.mail.yahoo.com> > From: Dean Rivando > > Hi there, > > I would like to donate, but I will only do so if I receive a tax > credit in > Canada. Can you please advise me whether you have charitable > status with the > Canada Customs and Revenue Agency and whether donations made in > Canada are > tax deductible. Dean, give less. Use the difference to pay the tax. Tax in your country is useful to help pay for infrastructure, defense, and healthcare. Say you wanted to give CAN$50. Give 40, use the other 10 to pay for the tax. For you it's the same (still spending 50) and for wikipedia it's better (40 instead of 0) :) ===== Chris Mahan 818.943.1850 cell chris_mahan at yahoo.com chris.mahan at gmail.com http://www.christophermahan.com/ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail