From: Tim Starling <ts4294967296(a)hotmail.com>
> > I do not think it is necessary that you
switch
off the
> procedure Tim, as I know what french people will
vote.
14 vs 1.
you forgot the abstention :-)
However, most said they wanted it only with a clear
procedure and rules. And a log. It is not clear
whether people are favorable to "punishment" in case
of abuse. It seems some fear sysops will never dare
blocking if there is a risk of punishement afterwards.
Interesting. No power should ever go without personal
responsability in case of power abuse. I know that it
will be a veto case for me if there is no possibility
to do anything in case of abuse. The fact we trust
current sysops can not be automatically extended in
the future.
Aoineko says "For me, if the blocked logged/annonyme
have any solution to contact other wikipedians and
contest the blocking, and if any other admin can
un-block logged/annonyme, there are no risk of a
abuse."
I think he is thinking that anything reversible has no
impact on spirit. No consequences. Such as when
someone is put in jail for 6 months because of an
juridical error. If the trial shows he is innocent,
and released, nothing happened; there was no abuse
whatsoever.
I agree reversible is the main thing. I object to the
"there is no abuse".
[fr:]
Aoineko. Je pense que tu sous estimes l'impact
psychologique d'un blocage, ou de tout situation
d'exclusion, m�me temporaire. Ce n'est pas le fait de
relacher un innocent apr�s coup qui efface d'un coup
de baguette magique l'impression d'�tre exclu. Et le
fait de reconnaitre une erreur apr�s coup �galement, a
ces limites en termes de responsabilit�. Toute
personne qui a un pouvoir, quel qu'il soit, doit �tre
capable de se justifier, doit accepter de reconnaitre
ses erreurs, et doit �tre pr�te � les assumer. Toi,
moi, Chirac (enfin, dans le meilleur des mondes). Il
ne doit pas y avoir pouvoir sans controle de pouvoir
et sans pouvoir retirer le dit pouvoir � celui qui en
abuse.
Cela ne veut pas dire que cela sera pratiqu�, mais en
cas de besoin, et pour l'avenir, c'est n�cessaire � un
bon �quilibre.
-------
I have no idea which french word could have been
translatd in club-footer :-(
Would the log appears in recent changes when it is
modified ?
I would really
would like that
* the log feature is done, so tracking of who ban is
available for public consideration
* a system is made possible to warn people that a
loggued in user has been banned (could it be a
message
at the top, or an automatic email, or automatic
update
of a visible banning log ?)
* that on the message displayed to the banned user,
the adress of the mailing list appears, and that the
message sent be automatically approved by the
emailer
(perhaps could it be a wikimail to the mailing list)
and this whether the user has a valid email address
or
not
* that any first blocking be initially programmed to
expire after a certain number of hours
* perhaps that a specific page on wikipedia is made
editable even by a loggued in user, for wikipedia
communication. The banned user could not edit any
page
but this one.
These are propositions.
I think english
people can handle blocking better
than
we can, with less risk of abuse.
But since we have not your safeguard, I think we
need
other tools to avoid slipping.
See my comment on the bistro. Expiry times are easy,
the log is in the
dev branch. If you have a proposal for a message which
is displayed to
blocked users, I suggest you put it in the
fr:Wikip�dia namespace, like
I did with [[en:Wikipedia:You have been blocked]].
Soon (when the CVS
branches are next merged), the message displayed will
be directly
editable by any French administrator, or by any user
if you choose to
unprotect it. The other suggestions are certainly nice
ideas, but they
will take time to implement. We have to prioritise.
-- Tim Starling.
[en:]
Ok, thank you Tim. As you said in your other messages,
you and Jimbo wished this use would be limited to
vandals, reincarnations of ban users.
I similarly hope it will not be used to censor people,
to threaten others, to deal with problematic users, to
manage edit wars.
And we both know how our wishes go :-(
[fr:]
Aoineko, je d�bloquerais tout utilisateur qui sera
bloqu� pour des actes autres que vandalisme pur et
dur. En particulier lorsque l'utilisateur sera
provoqu� par d'autres �diteurs.
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