Message: 7 Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 22:49:11 -0400 From: Brian Corr <BCorr(a)NEAction.org> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] More benefits of RK's bad behaivor he has had to drive people away -- or at the very least make them feel they are not welcome to "edit this page." Whatever the outcomes of this situation with are, I hope people will take my story into consideration as you decide. Wikipedia: I made my first edits without registering in June I think your experience is very interesting. There might be something that escape some of the old contributors around, so I would like to add something to your comment. When I had my issues with RK, issues for which I think we both were right and wrong at the same time, I did not know him. Sure enough, I was not new, but taking care of my own business. I saw him writing a couple of times on ML, but on topics which did not interest me somehow, so I did not read them. Hence I knew not his personality at all. Somehow, I was a newbie in dealing with him. Should it happen today, I know I would do things differently. I was not white myself, and can only thank Wapcaplet, 168 and Slrubenstein for helping both of us to come to an agreement. I look with interest at the comments from some here, supporting RK, and I don't remember them having help in any way to resolve dispute. I think that no one should support RK staying without agreeing to help others to deal with him. It is a bit like when one save someone from drowning, one hold responsibility of him thereafter. I spent precious hours trying to argue with RK, trying to prove he was just throwing falsities to my face, turning my sentences up and around, to conclude I was lying on things I had never said. And sure enough, not knowing he was used to this kind of action, I spend a lot of energy, trying to clean myself of dishonnest accusations. When all there was to do really, was to solve the issue about the articles. I know this *now* and I know most here are aware of this behavior, so I care little. And by default, all his accusations against some one else, I consider falsities. That is a bit of a generalization perhaps, but most of time, it is right. But, if I and other old hands know that, and perhaps some of us think we can live with it, newbies don't. Old hands should place themselves in the skin of a newcomer, placed alone in front of amazing RK. Not every newbie is an old usenet guy. Not every newbie can "guess" it is just a pecularity of RK to say to others they are vandals, should be banned, are mentally disturbed, sick-minded, should seek external help, are liers, nazis, and so one. Mind you, some editors may be very interesting for the project, bring wonderful stuff, but not be prepared to face such an amount of hard comments. And for these reasons, those supported RK among us, should engage themselves * to help thin skin people * to explain to them how RK is, and reassure them on their sanity and fitness to the project * manage edit war crisis * assume mediation with RK and the ones attacked One can't support RK, have him welcome back, and then just quietly go away. my interactions with RK left me with the feeling that I and my ideas were very welcome in the project, but I don't expect that people will defer to me on issues of race because of that -- I think I have to make my case stand on its own merits -- and I don't assume that RK is a racist because I think some of his views on race are biased in my opinion. So I bit my lip and kept going. That is good. I am glad you feel that way. I am not so good at that and do not work on en much any more. I am perhaps also an exception among all those who had a disagreement with RK : he never said I was an anti-semite or a nazi ! ;-) standing to vote for or against banning RK, but I will say that I will be far more likely to contribute to articles on race and politics if I don't think that RK might (will) revert my edits and deride my writing -- and me. Everyone has a right to stand for or against a vote as long as they know RK imho. A last point : I feel very troubled that part of the argument against RK exclusion is that he is a counterweight to Steve. Thus leading to accusations against Steve. That is really dishonestly shifting the discussion away from RK, to move the issue toward another person. We all are pov sometimes. RK just as others. I don't think his ponctual povs are reason for exclusion. His behavior is. And Steve is sometimes a bit "the word escape me here", but never had RK behavior. Afaik. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com