On Wed, Feb 27, 2008 at 1:58 PM, <WJhonson(a)aol.com> wrote:
> In a message dated 2/27/2008 10:51:23 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> cdhowie(a)gmail.com writes:
>
> << Any "Rule Z" here is irrelevant, because there is nothing stopping
> administrators from making a channel somewhere else, on some other IRC
> server, or some other chat server entirely. >>
> -------------------
> Yes, if we had a rule Z in-wiki which said "don't do this", then we'd impose
> it just like any other rule. If an admin is caught doing it, they face the
> requirements of that rule. Same as the rest of Wiki.
And this would be a pointless rule, just more CREEP. If I can justify
an action off-wiki then I can justify it on-wiki. If I cannot justify
an action on-wiki then I cannot justify it off-wiki.
If you ask an admin why they did something and they say "I dunno, we
agreed that it was the best thing" then you have every right to demand
an explanation, which may be in the form of a chat log and it may just
be a paraphrase, but either way you then have something to dispute.
If they say "someone told me to do it" and cannot provide more than
that then take it to RfC, MedCom, ArbCom, whatever.
I still don't see what the point is and I'd be interested to know how
you would draft this "rule Z."
--
Chris Howie
http://www.chrishowie.comhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Crazycomputers
Hear hear.
I would much prefer all-admin-talk talk place on-Wiki where we can all see
> what is and was said.
> To me that transparency is very important for the project. I am very
> pro-transparency.
>
> Will Johnson
>
--
en:User:Avraham
----
pub 1024D/785EA229 3/6/2007 Avi (Wikipedia-related) <aviwiki(a)gmail.com>
Primary key fingerprint: D233 20E7 0697 C3BC 4445 7D45 CBA0 3F46 785E
A229
On Wed, Feb 27, 2008 at 1:48 PM, <WJhonson(a)aol.com> wrote:
> In a message dated 2/27/2008 10:23:20 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> cdhowie(a)gmail.com writes:
>
> << Let us know when you figure out a mechanism to prevent Wikipedia
> administrators from talking about Wikipedia stuff except on-wiki. >>
> -------------
>
> Same way as always. Admins must follows rules x y and z. Rule Z says Admin
> IRC must only be used for special and rare cases where user-identification
> is
> being discussed.
Please stop replying to only me. This is a wider discussion; keep it on-list.
Any "Rule Z" here is irrelevant, because there is nothing stopping
administrators from making a channel somewhere else, on some other IRC
server, or some other chat server entirely. (Jabber, AIM...)
--
Chris Howie
http://www.chrishowie.comhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Crazycomputers
Yes, and expecially as regards OTRS, that is why there is a separate mailing
list and wiki for it. However, I would posit that the times discretion is
necessary, an e-mail list, with its corresponding archive, is sufficient as
opposed to the inherent transient nature of IRC. Also, a list allows
everyone who receives the e-mail the ability to comment, as opposed to those
who happen to be on-line at the time. Lastly, for the argument that IRC has
more immediacy than a list, MOST of the time, these kinds of decisions that
require the privacy and discretion an admin-only or OTRS list requires are
better served through at the least SOME deliberation as opposed to immediate
reaction.
--Avi
---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Majorly <axel9891(a)googlemail.com>
> To: "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:33:37 +0000
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] en.wiki admin IRC
> On 27/02/2008, WJhonson(a)aol.com <WJhonson(a)aol.com> wrote:
>
> Transparency is a great thing, but not everything should be (or needs to
> be). The reason the admin channel was set up was to have a private channel
> for trusted users when dealing with sensitive issues such as BLPs and OTRS
> tickets. I agree also that IRC is a pretty backward forum, but it's
> bearable. Frankly though, people who complain loudly about how awful IRC
> is
> don't get any sympathy from me, ever.
>
--
en:User:Avraham
----
pub 1024D/785EA229 3/6/2007 Avi (Wikipedia-related) <aviwiki(a)gmail.com>
Primary key fingerprint: D233 20E7 0697 C3BC 4445 7D45 CBA0 3F46 785E
A229
In a message dated 2/27/2008 9:30:55 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
johnjreaves(a)gmail.com writes:
Special:Emailuser?>>
-----------------------------
Yes I would be in favor of dismantling all off-wiki talk :)
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In a message dated 2/27/2008 9:34:16 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
axel9891(a)googlemail.com writes:
The reason the admin channel was set up was to have a private channel
for trusted users when dealing with sensitive issues such as BLPs and OTRS
tickets.>>
----------------
And we all know that it isn't being used for just this.
There are other ways to deal with this, other than more "super-secret" ways.
Non-admins deal with sensitive BLP issues all the time.
Speaking of which, I still haven't added Jimbo's wife's previous surname...
that's on my to-do list.
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IRC was this very early (and evil) way for people to communicate "Internet
Relay Chat".
It still lives (and should die) and admins have their own channel to talk to
each other.
It's not considered an "official" part of Wikipedia but might as well be.
I would much prefer all-admin-talk talk place on-Wiki where we can all see
what is and was said.
To me that transparency is very important for the project. I am very
pro-transparency.
Will Johnson
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Thomas Dalton wrote:
> All of those things, as stated earlier, reflect poorly. Convicting
> someone of a crime should be on the basis of an accusation by a named,
> identifiable accuser who can be confronted by the accused (subject to
> observation in the courtroom, of course, and intimidation and the like
> should be strictly disallowed), not something else. One should never
> be convicted or imprisoned on a basis like this: "Well who said I did
> something wrong?" "Well we can't tell you that, but here's a scrambled
> videotape of their accusation." "Well that's not true, I want to
> cross-examine them! And I want to know who they are, what if it's
> someone who has a grudge against me?" "Sorry, won't be possible."
I never said anything about a "scrambled videotape" or suggested that
people on trial should not be allowed to know the identities of their
accusers. I said that in some cases measures are taken to protect
vulnerable victims (such as children who have been molested) from
having to testify in front of the person who is accused of their
abuse. This does NOT involve "scrambled" videotape, and the identity
of the victim is not withheld from the accused. Sometimes the victim
is kept from having to testify through negotiations; for example, a
perpetrator may know that conviction is inevitable and may choose to
forego the opportunity to cross-examine the victim in exchange for
some sort of plea-bargaining consideration. Other times the
prosecution may protect the victim from testifying by using other
evidence to build its case; for example, a forensics expert could
testify about bruises found on the victim, or about semen that matched
the DNA of the accused individual (and of course the defense has the
opportunity to cross-examine the forensics expert).
My main point, though, which Thomas Dalton seems to have completely
forgotten in the course of his revery, is that there is no requirement
for disclosing the identity of the victim OUTSIDE THE COURT,
especially in cases of sensitive crimes. I agree with Thomas that
accused individuals should have the right to confront their accusers
(with the clarification that "victim" and "accuser" are not
necessarily the same individual). However, it would also be bad if we
had a court system which automatically published the identities of all
victims of crimes.
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Can I just pipe in here to say "Good".
Admin IRC is and always was a completely horrible idea, imho.
All IRC should die die die !
Time for coffee.
Will Johnson
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In a message dated 2/27/2008 8:19:12 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
sheldon(a)prwatch.org writes:
is that there is no requirement
for disclosing the identity of the victim OUTSIDE THE COURT,
especially in cases of sensitive crimes>>
---------------------
Which is used VERY rarely. And certainly would not imply in a case like
this one which is simply intimidation and casual threats.
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