[Wikipedia-l] Helga again

Thu Sep 5 15:55:30 UTC 2002

Michael R. Irwin wrote:

>An accurate presentation of facts involved in history
>is going to require the presentation of various peoples 
>views, when they are known, can be determined or possibly
>estimated with any reliability.  Stating they are "offensive" 
>and refusing to explore the details of the event merely 
>allows similar incidents in the future via ignorance as 
>well as design.
>
Victors uniformly believe that their own side was incapable of war 
crimes.  History often needs to wait until the participants have died of 
old age before truths can be discovered.  By that time any determination 
of guilt for war crimes is moot.

>Such as the current internment of non U.S. Arabs 
>(and U.S. Citizens of Arabic descent? I have not been
>following this closely) picked up for questioning in 
>the U.S.  Personally I can see no justification for this
>in U.S. law yet they have been repeatedly denied any
>relief by the U.S. courts.
>
These events are far more alarming than the original terrorist acts. 
 Hysteria is the only required justification.

>Such as holding "terrorists" as POWs to claim that
>no trial is appropriate or required while claiming
>the Geneva Conventions do not apply because the U.S.
>does not recognize the government it attacked.
>The U.S. has never accepted other countries allegations
>that our soldiers are terrorists or war criminals.
>Very convenient that Al Quada troops captured in
>Afghanistan turn out to be "terrorists" with no
>rights requiring no trial as long as they are not 
>detained on U.S. soil.  Very convenient that Quantico
>is not U.S. soil (as Cuba as been alleging for decades)
>but is merely controlled by the U.S. military.
>
Quantico is in the USA.  Guantanamo is the base in Cuba.  If suddenly 
the Americans are recognizing Guantanamo as being on Cuban soil, then 
these jailed "terrorists' should have the full protection of Cuban law. 
 That could be an interesting prospect.  It would be an interesting 
reversal of the incident a few years back when Castro emptied his jails 
of common criminals and shipped them all to the United States.

>It seems to me that in history, conflicts, etc.
>that the losers (victims) typically feel this
>was undeserved while the victors seem to have ways
>to feel it was justified or they (losers) deserved it.
>
Victors win the right to invent the history.

>I think that we should 
>simply state what happened and who believed what (or 
>state what they claim to have believed or what they wrote
>down as their beliefs and supporting and conflicting
>evidence, etc. etc.) and let the future readers decide
>for themselves what is "obvious" and "offensive".
>
We can't honestly do much more.

>If the fact that I do not view Jewish lives
>as inherently more valuable than other human
>lives (or discussion of events surrounding their
>death inherently "offensive") "offends" you or
>others then I feel that this is unfortunate.
>
I don't even consider American lives more valuable than others.