[WikiEN-l] Queen Elizabeth II

Thu Mar 10 23:08:14 UTC 2005

Steve,

I said "some" of the founding fathers, not any one picked at random.  You landed on a federalist.  Here is a quote from [[Democracy]]:

   According to classical usage, the word "democracy" refers solely to direct    democracy, whilst a representative democracy where representatives of the people govern in accordance with a constitution is referred to as a "republic". This older terminology also has some popularity in U.S. Conservative and Libertarian debate.

The definitions here that have more emphasis on a constitution, may not be the most popular definition of democracy in the US, but it does have intellectual validity and can be used, and will be recognized.  Pledges and oaths of officeholder will be to the republic or to uphold the "constitution", not the to will of the people or the latest legislation or to the president.  I think the above passage over emphasizes the "direct", because that term usually isn't used.   The emphasis is that the will of the people is limited by the constitution with its checks and balances, supermajority provisions, and bill of rights.   Jefferson is the founding father that most conservatives and libertarians look to.

I probably agree with you that one has to do research to do a lot  of writing, as long as past "research" counts.  But short of extensive writing, contributing to refining pages where some of the people understand the subject and their positions well enough to reduce them to a few definitions and principles, is quite possible on new subjects, and not just merely improving the writing either.

                          -- Silverback

-------------- Original message -------------- 
> Silverback wrote: 
> 
> >But it is an abstraction in another sense. The Americans have an 
> >ideological tradition starting with some of the founders and kept alive by 
> >conservatives, libertarians and classical liberals, which made a specific 
> >point that the US was not a democracy, but a republic. By republic they 
> >meant the rule of law, constitutional law, that could not be overridden by 
> >the majority. 
> 
> This is not true (which proves my point about the problem with people who 
> do not do research). According to the Federalist 10 (penned by James 
> Madison, a major contributor to our (yankees) Constitution and fourth 
> president -- 
> A republic, by which I mean a government in which the scheme of 
> representation takes place, opens a different prospect, and promises the 
> cure for which we are seeking. Let us examine the points in which it varies 
> from pure democracy, and we shall comprehend both the nature of the cure 
> and the efficacy which it must derive from the Union. 
> 
> The two great points of difference between a democracy and a republic are: 
> first, the delegation of the government, in the latter, to a small number 
> of citizens elected by the rest; secondly, the greater number of citizens, 
> and greater sphere of country, over which the latter may be extended. 
> They use "republic" to refer to a representative government. Note -- this 
> is (for them) a necessary but not sufficient definition of 
> "republic." They are comparing "republic" to "democracy" and thus 
> emphasize the difference. What they have in common, of course, is no monarch. 
> 
> Be that as it may, Americans today use these words differently, as do 
> political scientists and political theorist (although no political theorist 
> to my knowledge defines "republic" as democracy+law. They call 
> democracy+law "liberal state" or "liberal democracy" (tho' I admit I am not 
> a political scientist, if there is one out there, perhaps she can confirm 
> or correct me) 
> 
> He also says 
> 
> > A third party who doesn't understand can often be an impetous to 
> > clearer explanations and understandings on their parts. 
> 
> And I would again insist that the third party will not be able to suggest 
> alternatives unless s/he has done research. 
> 
> You don't have to be an academic to do good research. But you just can't 
> write an encyclopedia without doing research. 
> 
> Steve 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steven L. Rubenstein 
> Associate Professor 
> Department of Sociology and Anthropology 
> Bentley Annex 
> Ohio University 
> Athens, Ohio 45701 
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