[WikiEN-l] www.wixpression.org?

Fri Jan 9 00:33:25 UTC 2004

Gutza wrote:

> Ray Saintonge wrote:
>
>> The last thing that Wiktionary needs is a listing of automated 
>> translation.  Of course the English Wiktionary is "English-centric". 
>> What else did you expect?  It is first a dictionary, and only 
>> secondly a book of translations.  Still, to choose one example and 
>> say that there is a 1:1 correspondence between the words of two 
>> languages represnts a totally naïve view of language.
>
>
> Really? Here's what I tried: clicked on "Random Page" 10 times. Here 
> are the results:
> 1. http://wiktionary.org/wiki/Pronunciaci%C3%B3n
> 2. http://wiktionary.org/wiki/%E3%92%AD
> 3. http://wiktionary.org/wiki/Mayoress
> 4. http://wiktionary.org/wiki/Bijutel
> 5. http://wiktionary.org/wiki/Decibel
> 6. http://wiktionary.org/wiki/Balul
> 7. http://wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%97%86
> 8. http://wiktionary.org/wiki/Airtight
> 9. http://wiktionary.org/wiki/Brush
> 10. http://wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%95%9A
>
> There is not a single one hit in the ten above which isn't appropriate 
> for automated parsing:
> * No. 1 would be reverse translated from Spanish to English (note that 
> http://wiktionary.org/wiki/Pronounciation doesn't exist).
> * No. 2, 3, 7 and 10 would be completely skipped in parsing because 
> they don't contain any proper translations.
> * No. 4 and 6 would be reverse translated from Volapük to English 
> (note there is no mention of Balul at 
> http://wiktionary.org/wiki/January, and 
> http://wiktionary.org/wiki/Jeweller doesn't exist).
> * No. 5, 8 and 9 would be properly translated to the respective 
> languages for which translations are available.
>
> What would be wrong with this? What counter-examples do you have in mind?

Most of the above have their own problems.
1. Spanish.  It at first seems like a simple matter of using the cognate 
"pronunciation", but in  Law it can also mean "publication".  Coming 
back from English there is also the usage at a wedding where the parties 
are "pronounced husband and wife"
2. An elder brother.  Not all languages have special words to 
differentiate between an older and younger brother.  Just because there 
is no translation there now, does not mean that it will never be added.
3. Are we talking about a female mayor, or the mayor's wife.
4. Two meanings are given:  the jeweller (or jeweler in the U.S.) and 
his shop.  How do we determine which is meant.  English does not have a 
proper single word for the latter.  At least French has "bijoutier" and 
"bijouterie"
5. This is the most stable of the lot because it is defined by 
international standards.
6. Probably stable.  Names of months usually are unless we are talking 
about diferent calenders, which would be stretching the issue even for me.
7. This one relates to pennants or streamers, or even flags, but not in 
the sense of national flags.
8. The literal meaning seems obvious, but one still has to allow for the 
more metaphorical, as in "The lawyer had an airtight case."
9. The ordinary meaning might seem easy enough, but a brush in an 
electric motor would not be translated the same way.
10.It can mean a cloth for carrying a baby on one's back, or as a verb 
to "tie" or "bind"

So this leaves me with only two out of ten where one does not run into 
ambiguities.  This is far too much ambiguity for automated translations 
to be a viable option.  As US President Kennedy once said, "I am a jelly 
doughnut".

Ec