[WikiEN-l] Re: Bot for generating articles on cities in Israel

Wed Sep 17 14:32:50 UTC 2003

Steve Vertigum wrote:
> --- Adam Raizen <araizen at newmail.net> wrote:
> 
>>Steve Vertigum wrote:
> 
> 
>>The statistics already exist; I don't have the means
>>to do my own poll. 
> 
> 
> Huh?
> 
> 
>>Now it's just a question of whether to add them to
>>Wikipedia, and if so, 
>>in what form and with what explanation. 
> 
> 
> Add what -- the new statistics that "already exist"
> but you cant find, or the backup ones from a
> controversial POV source?

I have no idea what you're talking about. I've only had one set of 
statistics since the beginning, and I've never said anything about not 
being able to find some statistics. I downloaded the spreadsheet from 
http://gis.cbs.gov.il/Website/Localities2001/Rashuyot_htm/profilExcel2001.xls 
from the website of Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, which 
contains data on the local authorities in Israel from the end of 2001. 
 From 
http://gis.cbs.gov.il/Website/Localities2001/Rashuyot_htm/hakdama-CBS-h_IE.htm: 
"This publication is a joint venture between the Central Bureau of 
Statistics and the Interior Ministry. In the publication there are 
physical data (population, education and welfare, infrastructure, etc.) 
and financial data (execution of the budget) concerning the local 
authorities in Israel for the year 2001."

>>So far,
>>you're the only one to 
>>object, 
> 
> 
> No Im not. I came into this thread after a couple
> people raised questions.

Some people have raised questions, but so far you're the only one to 
object to using the statistics at all under any circumstances.

>>and not on any specific reason to distrust
>>the statistics, but 
>>just on a general distrust of Israel. For the nth
>>time, this will be 
>>explained in detail in an article linked to from the
>>bot's articles.
> 
> 
> This isnt good enough--you cant simply add statistics
> from Hamas and stipulate these with a buried link to
> an article which explains that "these stats may not be
> NPOV"

Actually, I expect that stats from Hamas would be acceptible, if Hamas 
collects statistics, if they're attributed on the page itself (as these 
will be), and with a link to additional explanation in a prominent place 
(as these will have). Whatever gave you the idea that the link would be 
"buried".

>>>Ah. Such effortless effort should be noted for its
>>>notability. 
>>
>>What exactly are you objecting to?
> 
> 
> The use of a bot to add Israeli government statistics,
> which we proved a few letters ago was not NPOV, and
> also was an apartheid state, which among decent
> thoughful people tends to raise a flag or two.

So you object to adding links to the home pages of the local authorities 
in question (since that what you were responding to)?

>>I'm not avoiding the issue. I've posted explanations
>>of the demographic 
>>categories in a couple of different messages, and
>>I'll expand upon that 
>>in the article which will be linked to from all the
>>bot-generated 
>>articles. If you can't find the explanations, I'll
>>collect them and 
>>repost them. If you have any specific objections,
>>I'd like to hear them. 
>>If you have any specific questions that I haven't
>>answered, ask away.
> 
> 
> Im not the kind of guy to get sidetracked with
> specifics-- I am the kind to state some obvious
> things--that NPOV would be violated if we added
> POV-based data en masse.
> Add it by hand if you want-- let each stand up to
> scrutiny.
> As I understand it, in Israel-- even the names of
> towns and cities is a often a question of POV.
> 
> 
>>Of course, it will be a very simple matter to have a
>>bot go around and 
>>correct/update these articles, if needed (much
>>simpler than creating the 
>>articles in the first place).
> 
> 
> I love how you say "we can take care of it easy and
> simple"--just sign on the line--- You sound like a
> politician, young man.
> 
>  "We're" not pinching
> 
>>our collective nose 
>>at anything. I think that you need a better
>>objection than just a 
>>general dislike for Israel.
> 
> 
> Its not a "general dislike" --(dont start that
> pottytalk with me--or at least use LD's <rant> tags)--
> its an nose for the smell of POV disguised as a field
> of "statistics", boosted en mass, up the rear end of
> the WP.  The WP does'nt necessarily object to this
> course of entry, provided the proper prophylactic
> measures have been secured. (We dont want to catch any
> POV in other words) You could might as well name it
> the POV-BOT,  since were all friends here.
> 
> WikiLove be upon you and your progeny,
> ~S~

Okay, you're obviously not going to like anything else I have to say, so 
I'm done. If anyone else has any objections, please bring them up.

I really find it incredible that you're objecting. A lot of things have 
been said against the government of Israel, but I haven't heard anyone 
questioning the statistics it gathers for its own bureaucratic purposes 
on its own citizens (these data do not include any information on 
Palestinians in the territories). How might the statistics be biased 
exactly? Too many or too few Jews? Too large a population, or too small? 
What would be the purpose of that? (Don't answer, it's a rhetorical 
question. I'm not going to debate this.)

-- Adam Raizen