From rvabrilot at gmail.com Sat Sep 4 07:12:34 2004 From: rvabrilot at gmail.com (rodrigo vera) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 03:12:34 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Chilef Wikipedia Message-ID: I am a student from the Tecnical University Federico Santa Maria of Chile, i am preparing a proyect for creating an encyclopedia of Chile with mediawiki, We plan to create a meta-site named www.chilef.cl (or chilef.mediawiki.org if you like) wich coordinate de effort for creating this large scale proyect. we really whant to create a "evangelization process" for this, with a litle help of e-mails, contacts in chilean universities (we have) and chain reaction messages through people we know. also we want to administer links with es.wikipedia.com for some content. we think that a strong net of contacts will make all the force needed by this proyect and want to share it whit you. From the_pokemon_master at hotmail.com Sat Sep 4 07:22:33 2004 From: the_pokemon_master at hotmail.com (Christopher Larberg) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 00:22:33 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Chilef Wikipedia References: Message-ID: Can you clarify what you intend to do with this encyclopedia? Create an encyclopedia specifically about Chile? Also, is the actual encyclopedia going to be online? You speak of making a "meta-site" with MediaWiki, but you haven't mentioned the actual project. Also, what exactly is the intent of this e-mail? Are you just informing us, or do you want us to do something? Sorry for the questions; I'm just curious. =) --Slowking Man ----- Original Message ----- From: rodrigo vera To: foundation-l at wikimedia.org Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2004 12:12 AM Subject: [Foundation-l] Chilef Wikipedia I am a student from the Tecnical University Federico Santa Maria of Chile, i am preparing a proyect for creating an encyclopedia of Chile with mediawiki, We plan to create a meta-site named www.chilef.cl (or chilef.mediawiki.org if you like) wich coordinate de effort for creating this large scale proyect. we really whant to create a "evangelization process" for this, with a litle help of e-mails, contacts in chilean universities (we have) and chain reaction messages through people we know. also we want to administer links with es.wikipedia.com for some content. we think that a strong net of contacts will make all the force needed by this proyect and want to share it whit you. From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 4 14:28:16 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 07:28:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation web site needs you Message-ID: <20040904142816.59950.qmail@web41811.mail.yahoo.com> Hello, The future wikimedia website may be found here : http://wikimedia.org/wiki/Home For it to become truely our site, it needs input from editors. You may find here (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_website) some ideas about we would like it to become and why. You are welcome to help adding content in it. For this, you need to ask for an account. Please do so to Angela or I. Mostly, to be functionnal, the website needs technical help. An irc occured a while ago on the topic. The link is here : http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Foundation_website_meeting%2C_July_2004 In this discussion, it was concluded that there were a bunch of things to fix, such as html handling, different skin for loggued-in users and non loggued-in users, languages... The current situation in any cases is that * We cannot host the fundraising page * We cannot easily handle multilingualism The first point makes it impossible for the website to just exist. The second is just a knife cut in our attempt to make this site multilingue. Is there anyone interested to help about this ? If yes, when and for what ? Is there any hope that anything is done in the next 6 months ? I am ready to participate to the content, but since I would prefer to write in french and am basically the only one participating on it, is it a problem that the foundation website is in french ? Also, is it okay to everyone that I change the current fundraising page ? There is outdated information on it, and I would like that translations are included as well. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 4 14:39:07 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 07:39:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Foundation website, address Message-ID: <20040904143907.5421.qmail@web41813.mail.yahoo.com> Oh, I forgot... I remember a mail was sent to the owner of wikimedia.com. What are the news on that topic ? for information We chose to have the site at WikimediaFoundation rather than the easier Wikimedia, for the simple reason that we do not own wikimedia.com. Ant _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 4 14:51:22 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 07:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Developer payment Message-ID: <20040904145122.22403.qmail@web41806.mail.yahoo.com> Hello I made a proposal for how we could handle this tricky issue on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Developer_payment. I invite you to read it and to comment if you wish :-) My belief is that it is a decent compromise between all the wishes expressed (well, at least I hope). I remind you that this is a trial, not a permanent decision. The plain idea is * that the opportunity is taken to clean up and organise better a couple of pages (such as http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Development_tasks) * to avoid bureaucracy. **If an editor or the foundation wishes for a task to be done, just ask **If a developer is ready to take care of a matter, just mentions it on development task. If he would be interested by getting in contract, please mentions it on [[development payment proposal]] (or any title you think best) *to always ensure that this task is welcome by the entire community (please discuss it before on mailing lists or meta) *to ensure that this task makes consensus amongst the developers (hence the involvment of the developer committee - no task will be paid for, which will go against the general direction set by the developers, or is technically nonsensical) *to ensure that this task is interesting the foundation (hence, the decision to pay or not for a task will be made by the board) Refining the proposal is welcome. Otherwise, basically, this is in your hands now. The basic structure is there, use it or do not use it :-) ant __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From modean52 at comcast.net Sat Sep 4 16:30:22 2004 From: modean52 at comcast.net (James R. Johnson) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 12:30:22 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation web site needs you In-Reply-To: <20040904142816.59950.qmail@web41811.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040904163033.5CFE11AC0016@mail.wikimedia.org> Hello Anthere, I can help with translating from French after March (since I'll be in France, and know more then), but for now, I can help translate to German and Anglo-Saxon. James -----Original Message----- From: foundation-l-bounces at wikimedia.org [mailto:foundation-l-bounces at wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Anthere Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2004 10:28 AM To: wikitech-l at wikimedia.org Cc: foundation-l at wikimedia.org Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation web site needs you Hello, The future wikimedia website may be found here : http://wikimedia.org/wiki/Home For it to become truely our site, it needs input from editors. You may find here (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_website) some ideas about we would like it to become and why. You are welcome to help adding content in it. For this, you need to ask for an account. Please do so to Angela or I. Mostly, to be functionnal, the website needs technical help. An irc occured a while ago on the topic. The link is here : http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Foundation_website_meeting%2C_July_2004 In this discussion, it was concluded that there were a bunch of things to fix, such as html handling, different skin for loggued-in users and non loggued-in users, languages... The current situation in any cases is that * We cannot host the fundraising page * We cannot easily handle multilingualism The first point makes it impossible for the website to just exist. The second is just a knife cut in our attempt to make this site multilingue. Is there anyone interested to help about this ? If yes, when and for what ? Is there any hope that anything is done in the next 6 months ? I am ready to participate to the content, but since I would prefer to write in french and am basically the only one participating on it, is it a problem that the foundation website is in french ? Also, is it okay to everyone that I change the current fundraising page ? There is outdated information on it, and I would like that translations are included as well. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l at wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l From erik_moeller at gmx.de Sun Sep 5 01:20:00 2004 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: 05 Sep 2004 03:20:00 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [WikiEN-l] Secretlondon's attacks on Jimbo Wales In-Reply-To: <20040904163405.GA9370@wikia.com> Message-ID: <9GJpYB9CpVB@erik_moeller> Jimmy- (cc to foundation-l) > I wrote: >> I'm getting sick of your US bashing. Please stop it now. > I regretted it, and apologized. I apologized again today. I try to > be nice to everyone, but sometimes I fail, and I'm very sorry about > that. I see two problems here: 1) People confuse your personal opinions with Wikipedia policy. Maybe a copy&paste disclaimer for your emails would help with that? "The opinions in this email are my own and do not reflect Wikimedia or Wikipedia project policy unless otherwise stated." Most email clients support multiple sigs for purposes like that. 2) People don't realize that Wikimedia is not just Jimbo Wales. Most of our external communications have been very Jimbo-centric so far, but that's partially because there was no elected Board of Trustees, for example. Is there a shared board email address already? Maybe something like board at wikimedia dot org could be used as a replacement for the ubiquitous jwales at bomis dot com. That would also help in combating the Bomis-related conspiracy theories. A ticket system would offer quite a few advantages over a simple mailing list: 1) no duplicate effort, 2) no need for spamming your inbox, just do everything through a single web interface, 3) easily expand the team of "agents", with different categories and associated user rights. Essentially a Bugzilla for emails. This system here looks interesting: http://otrs.org/ http://otrs.org/screenshot/ Regards, Erik From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 5 10:27:09 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 03:27:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Meetings in Europe Message-ID: <20040905102709.88117.qmail@web41801.mail.yahoo.com> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_meetup http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedian_meetings_in_Europe Many meetings took place in Europe and US. Some are reported on meta, but not all of them. Could those who participated to these meetings list them on meta (place, date and notable events if appropriate, plus relevant links to local project with all the great pictures and name of participants) so we could track of all this ? Thanks in advance. ant _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From beesley at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 14:38:55 2004 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela_) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 15:38:55 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Developer payment In-Reply-To: <413AFFD7.8000706@yahoo.com> References: <20040904145122.22403.qmail@web41806.mail.yahoo.com> <413AED1A.2000202@yahoo.com> <413AFFD7.8000706@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8b722b800409050738685a2e10@mail.gmail.com> Timwi wrote: >> You have made no mention of MediaZilla, which saddens me a bit. Anthere wrote: > I did not put it in the tasks because I understood it had already been > set up. I think Timwi meant that MediaZilla should be used to organize the developer payments, not that it is a candidate for payment. This means that the a tag is added to bugs or feature requests that tells anyone looking at MediaZilla that a bounty is available, and the developer can choose to accept it by noting this in MediaZilla itself, rather than on the wiki. Angela. From jwales at wikia.com Sun Sep 5 15:37:50 2004 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 08:37:50 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Paypal in French In-Reply-To: <200408181156.47931.yann@forget-me.net> References: <200408181156.47931.yann@forget-me.net> Message-ID: <20040905153750.GC8114@wikia.com> Yann Forget wrote: > Paypal existe now in French. > I think that will help donations from French speaking countries. > > http://www.01net.com/article/249486.html > http://www.paypal.fr Is there something we need to do to enable this, or does it just work automatically? I know there has been some concern in the French community about finances and about transparency with respect to finances. Is there something we should do about that? --Jimbo From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 5 22:35:41 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 15:35:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Paypal in French In-Reply-To: <20040905153750.GC8114@wikia.com> Message-ID: <20040905223541.4368.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" wrote: > Is there something we need to do to enable this, or does it just work > automatically? It should work as is with our current account. What we need is HTML support for the WMF wiki so that the already translated donation pages could be hosted there. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From anthere9 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 6 04:28:05 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 06:28:05 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Paypal in French References: <20040905153750.GC8114@wikia.com> <20040905223541.4368.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <413BE755.1070804@yahoo.com> Daniel Mayer a ?crit: > --- "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" wrote: > >>Is there something we need to do to enable this, or does it just work >>automatically? > > > It should work as is with our current account. What we need is HTML support for > the WMF wiki so that the already translated donation pages could be hosted > there. > > -- mav Mav is correct. Looxix already translated the form. What we need is HTML support for the WMF wiki ... From kissall at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 08:08:35 2004 From: kissall at gmail.com (Kiss All) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 03:08:35 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] a proposal about sharing free ideas Message-ID: <384f6ad4040906010816d46ec7@mail.gmail.com> share ideas and coordinate their implementation Link to request on mailing list: [1] (http://mail.wikipedia.org/) Naming suggestions: Share your ideas Domain name: http://ideas.wikimedia.org Scope: Good ideas are much more important than just knowledge. We are already trying to share valuable knowledge nowadays, but how about the invaluable ideas? We, human beings in this plantet, should share any ideas beneficial to ourselves by posting it right after it flashes in your mind, discuss it with others, and even find a way to realize it. Isn't it great! Details: share your ideas http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/share_your_ideas Proposer:kissall People interested joining: kissall Relevant links: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Kissall -- Be good.... From anthere9 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 6 19:03:59 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 12:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] =?iso-8859-1?q?Re=3A_Article_=22Etes-vous_archikh?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=FBbe_et_archif=E2kh_=3F=22?= Message-ID: <20040906190359.3320.qmail@web41812.mail.yahoo.com> Note : Yannf a envoye cette copie a la ml ? ma demande. Yann, Je pr?f?rerais tr?s tr?s vivement que lorsque tu parles au nom du conseil de Wikimedia (ie, en tant que porte parole) * soit tu demandes ? un membre du board son opinion au pr?alable * soit qu'au minimum, tu mettes en copie le courrier envoy?, ? la liste de discussion ou ? un membre. Tu peux bien sur parfaitement ?crire en ton nom propre. Anthere ------- Yann Forget a ?crit: > Bonjour, > > L'article de la rubrique "?ducation" titr? "Etes-vous archikh?be et > archif?kh ?" (1) est en partie copi? depuis l'encyclop?die en ligne > Wikip?dia, notamment de http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argot_scolaire . La > licence des textes de cette encyclop?die impose de citer la source si le > texte est r?utilis?, hors votre article ne cite aucune source. Pourriez-vous, > s'il vous pla?t, corriger cette lacune ? > > En vous remerciant par avance, > Yann Forget > porte-parole de la fondation Wikipedia > > 1) http://www.lefigaro.fr/education/20040825.FIG0233.html > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > WikiFR-l mailing list > WikiFR-l-g2DCOkC13y2GglJvpFV4uA at public.gmane.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikifr-l __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jansson at gmx.net Mon Sep 6 19:06:39 2004 From: jansson at gmx.net (Kurt Jansson) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 21:06:39 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] ticket system and newsletter software (was: Secretlondon's attacks on Jimbo Wales) In-Reply-To: <9GJpYB9CpVB@erik_moeller> References: <9GJpYB9CpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <413CB53F.9040803@gmx.net> Erik Moeller schrieb: > A ticket system would offer quite a few advantages over a simple mailing > list: 1) no duplicate effort, 2) no need for spamming your inbox, just do > everything through a single web interface, 3) easily expand the team of > "agents", with different categories and associated user rights. > Essentially a Bugzilla for emails. We've been talking about a ticket system in the German press team, and most people support it's use, though it would be less open. But it would be less chaotic, too. ATM some questions get answered twice, others might be overlooked between all the spam and viruses (especially a virus filter would be a big (!) improvement for the people answering the info at wikipedia.de mails). > This system here looks interesting: > http://otrs.org/ > http://otrs.org/screenshot/ Another system which has been mentioned is http://www.bestpractical.com/rt/ A newsletter software would also be quite useful, especially for sending out press releases. We could use mailman, but a specialized software would do the job much better. PHPlist seems to be popular: http://tincan.co.uk/phplist Kurt From anthere9 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 6 23:59:24 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 01:59:24 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] status Message-ID: <413CF9DC.9060508@yahoo.com> I will be away or very little available for the next few days. Have fun ;-) Anthere From wikipedia at earthlink.net Tue Sep 7 03:28:20 2004 From: wikipedia at earthlink.net (Michael Snow) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 20:28:20 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Update on status of press release In-Reply-To: <20040906042927.BC7411AC0340@mail.wikimedia.org> References: <20040906042927.BC7411AC0340@mail.wikimedia.org> Message-ID: <413D2AD4.8000609@earthlink.net> Our upcoming press release about the 1,000,000-article milestone for Wikipedia is approaching completion. I just wanted to keep everyone informed who's helping with the project. Based on the current rate of article creation, we're still looking at September 15 as the date for the millionth article, and we plan to starting sending the press release that day. I anticipate some changes still need to be made - for example, a new quote from Jimbo instead of recycling the one from the last press release. But I plan to push on and hopefully have a final text ready in the next 24 hours or so. Anyone who still has input they want to offer, please don't hold back; I would love to have your help, but we need to freeze the text for the translation process very soon. Thanks also to the translators, many of whom have already started working on the draft text. I will announce on this list again when the text is finalized, so you can update translations to that version. --Michael Snow From beesley at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 16:49:58 2004 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 17:49:58 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Launch of the Wikimedia Commons Message-ID: <8b722b80040907094975f3368b@mail.gmail.com> I am pleased to announce that a database has now been set up for the Wikimedia Commons. The site is temporarily located at http://commons.wikimedia.org/ until the project gets its own domain. This provides a space for those interested to begin forming the guidelines for the site, and to discuss how the software will need to adapt to make the Commons as useful as possible. The previous discussions are now linked to from http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Project_plan. Batches of files may be uploaded as compressed zip files. Some time in the next few days, a script will be written to decompress these zip files on the server side. Please make sure you use appropriate file names inside the archives. Thanks to Tim Starling for creating the database, and to all those who have contributed to the discussion so far. Angela. From maveric149 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 7 17:39:26 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 10:39:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Launch of the Wikimedia Commons In-Reply-To: <8b722b80040907094975f3368b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040907173926.88868.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Angela wrote: > I am pleased to announce that a database has now been set up for the > Wikimedia Commons. This is great news! > The site is temporarily located at http://commons.wikimedia.org/ until > the project gets its own domain. I'm pretty sure the plan was to keep the domain name exactly like it is now since it is a *common* resource for all Wikimedia projects (just like Meta). > This provides a space for those interested to begin forming the > guidelines for the site, and to discuss how the software will need to > adapt to make the Commons as useful as possible. > > The previous discussions are now linked to from > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Project_plan. > > Batches of files may be uploaded as compressed zip files. Some time in > the next few days, a script will be written to decompress these zip > files on the server side. Please make sure you use appropriate file > names inside the archives. Hm. Lot's of images to transfer. Could the transwiki function be tweaked in order to do this? -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From rich at richpoints.com Tue Sep 7 22:14:53 2004 From: rich at richpoints.com (Rich Points) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 16:14:53 -0600 Subject: [Foundation-l] Mediawiki installation trouble Message-ID: <041801c49528$19aa05e0$6401a8c0@LAPCHICKEN> Howdy, I hope this is the right list to post this inquiry, if not can someone direct me to the appropriate list. I'm trying to install mediawiki 1.3.2 and I'm getting the following error report. Can someone tell me what I'm doing wrong? Thanks Rich a.. PHP 4.3.8: ok a.. Warning: PHP's register_globals option is enabled. MediaWiki will work correctly, but this setting increases your exposure to potential security vulnerabilities in PHP-based software running on your server. You should disable it if you are able. a.. PHP server API is apache; ok, using pretty URLs (index.php/Page_Title) a.. Have XML / Latin1-UTF-8 conversion support. a.. PHP's memory_limit is 16M. If this is too low, installation may fail! Attempting to raise limit to 20M... ok. a.. Have zlib support; enabling output compression. a.. Found GD graphics library built-in, image thumbnailing will be enabled if you enable uploads. a.. Installation directory: a.. Script URI path: /wiki Warning: Unknown(DefaultSettings.php): failed to open stream: No such file or directory in /opt2/home3/rd6714/public_html/wiki/config/index.php(373) : eval()'d code on line 8 Warning: (null)(): Failed opening 'DefaultSettings.php' for inclusion (include_path='.::/includes:/languages') in /opt2/home3/rd6714/public_html/wiki/config/index.php(373) : eval()'d code on line 8 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 8 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 9 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 12 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 13 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 14 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 15 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 16 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 17 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 18 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 19 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 20 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 21 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 22 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 23 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 24 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 25 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 26 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 27 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 28 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 29 Fatal error: Cannot redeclare -- Rich Points Rich at RichPoints.com http://RichPoints.com From rowan.collins at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 22:39:48 2004 From: rowan.collins at gmail.com (Rowan Collins) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 23:39:48 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Mediawiki installation trouble In-Reply-To: <041801c49528$19aa05e0$6401a8c0@LAPCHICKEN> References: <041801c49528$19aa05e0$6401a8c0@LAPCHICKEN> Message-ID: <9f02ca4c040907153962ffd7b7@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 16:14:53 -0600, Rich Points wrote: > Howdy, > I hope this is the right list to post this inquiry, if not can someone direct me to the appropriate list. You want the "mediawiki-l" list - mediawiki-l at wikimedia.org | http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l Good luck. -- Rowan Collins BSc [IMSoP] From kissall at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 00:12:56 2004 From: kissall at gmail.com (Kiss All) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 19:12:56 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Mediawiki installation trouble In-Reply-To: <9f02ca4c040907153962ffd7b7@mail.gmail.com> References: <041801c49528$19aa05e0$6401a8c0@LAPCHICKEN> <9f02ca4c040907153962ffd7b7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <384f6ad4040907171276bb0471@mail.gmail.com> I don't know the reason, but have you changed the permission of config directory? I installed 1.3.2 on both Red Hat 9.0 and Gentoo . The only time-consuming thing for me was to set up LAMP combination properly, not MediaWiki. I wrote the install guide for RH9 and refined the one for Gentoo. You may have a look at them if you like http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Running_MediaWiki_on_Gentoo_Linux http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Running_MediaWiki_on_Red_Hat_Linux On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 23:39:48 +0100, Rowan Collins wrote: > On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 16:14:53 -0600, Rich Points wrote: > > Howdy, > > I hope this is the right list to post this inquiry, if not can someone direct me to the appropriate list. > > You want the "mediawiki-l" list - mediawiki-l at wikimedia.org | > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l > > Good luck. > > -- > Rowan Collins BSc > [IMSoP] > > > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > -- Be good.... From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 00:48:22 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 20:48:22 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Newsletter Message-ID: <742dfd06040907174812cfbf9a@mail.gmail.com> Hello all, I am happy to announce that a Wikimedia newsletter is underway. The plan is to publish it online next week, then lay it out for print publication. You can see an outline of the first issue here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Newsletter_(outline) We are looking for a managing editor in each language, a lead copyeditor, a print editor, and a community reporter. If you would like to work on the newsletter in any capacity, please leave a note on the talk page, or email me directly. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Newsletter Everyone is encouraged to suggest content; particularly compelling wiki-statistics, notes about local wikiprojects, symbolic articles (preferably from the [[meta:List of articles all languages should have]], and 'feature-quality' in more than one language) and images for the gallery. Please leave suggestions for newsletter content on the discussion page above. We also need translators, and proofreaders in each language. You can follow the translation effort or contribute to it here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/NL-1 Rundschreiben der Wikimedia Wikimedia newsletter Bolet?n de noticias de Wikimedia Lettre de diffusion de Wikimedia ?????????? http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/NL-1 Wer Lust hat, sich an der deutschen (oder anderen) Fassung zu beteiligen, schreibt bitte an meta.sj at gmail.com If you would like to help translate or edit the newsletter, please send mail to meta.sj at gmail.com Si Usted quiere traducir entre espa?ol y otro idioma, o corregir en espa?ol, favor de mandar un email a meta.sj at gmail.com. Si vous voulez faire une traduction ou r?dacter en fran?ais, ?crivez-nous a meta.sj at gmail.com. ?????????????????? ?????????????????????meta.sj at gmail.com?????????????? ===== On the subject of translations, I want to repeat Michael Snow's notice of the press release being prepared in honor of the one millionth Wikipedia article. Please spread the word, and help us translate this into every one of our hundred+ languages (currently we only have translations in 15). Note that the original is still being edited, and is not yet ready for release. Globale Presseerkl?rung (millionstel Seite) Global press release (millionth article) Lanzamiento de prensa global (millon?simo art?culo) Communiqu? de presse global (millioni?me article) ????????????????????? http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/PR-1mil This is also a good time to think of local newspapers and radio stations that you could contact about the announcement (it's not too early to start contacting them now). For a list of organizations contacted earlier this year, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Press_releases/Logbook September cheer, Sj From jmoore21166 at bellsouth.net Wed Sep 8 11:12:23 2004 From: jmoore21166 at bellsouth.net (James Moore) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 07:12:23 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Help Request: Changing an Existing Non-Wiki Project into a Wiki Project Message-ID: <000d01c49594$b7a8adc0$230110ac@gateway.2wire.net> Greetings, I have for the past four years been the webmaster and chief author of the Outcyclopedia, an online reference guide for the gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender community. I would like to revamp the project into a wiki, using articles already existing on the site, any future articles written by myself or contributors, plus articles forked from Wikipedia, per Wikipedia's copyright guidelines, using and granting permissions under either the GNU or Creative Commons License. The change from a site using html to one utilizing PHP, MySQL, and MediaWiki would take me into new territory, technical and otherwise. I would therefore appreciate any and all help and advice which may be offered, especially from persons running their own non-Wikipedia wiki projects, such as Memory Alpha or Jewpedia, and of course any other GLBt Wikipedians that may be out there. Thanks. Cheers, James http://outcyclopedia.0catch.com From walter at wikipedia.be Wed Sep 8 14:11:51 2004 From: walter at wikipedia.be (Walter Vermeir) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 14:11:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Foundation-l] Fact-index.com financially supports the Wikimedia Foundation Message-ID: http://www.fact-index.com/c/co/computer_science.html *Fact-index.com financially supports the Wikimedia Foundation*. Is this true? --- [[w:nl:gebruiker:Walter]] From wikipedia at earthlink.net Wed Sep 8 14:22:41 2004 From: wikipedia at earthlink.net (Michael Snow) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 07:22:41 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Press release finalized In-Reply-To: <20040908004843.AEFFF1AC0474@mail.wikimedia.org> References: <20040908004843.AEFFF1AC0474@mail.wikimedia.org> Message-ID: <413F15B1.7070900@earthlink.net> The press release is now in its final version. The text has been frozen should not be edited any further. If you have started translating the press release already, please update your translation to reflect the final version. If the press release has not been translated into your language yet, please post an announcement on your Wikipedia asking for someone who can do that. Translation is being coordinated at: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/PR-1mil Different languages may add content that would be of local interest to media in that language. I would recommend that any such additions be kept brief, so that the overall press release is not too long. We are still planning for the press release to start going out on September 15 when we reach one million articles. Thank you to everyone who has helped so far, and to everyone who will help when it comes time to distribute the press release as well. --Michael Snow From beesley at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 15:08:20 2004 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela_) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 16:08:20 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Fact-index.com financially supports the Wikimedia Foundation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8b722b8004090808089dba4b0@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 14:11:51 +0000 (UTC), Walter Vermeir wrote: > *Fact-index.com financially supports the Wikimedia Foundation*. Is this true? Fact-index have made a substantial donation to the Foundation. Plans are being made to detail this, and other significant donations, on the http://wikimediafoundation.org website in future. Angela. From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 15:40:55 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 11:40:55 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Press release finalized In-Reply-To: <413F15B1.7070900@earthlink.net> References: <20040908004843.AEFFF1AC0474@mail.wikimedia.org> <413F15B1.7070900@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <742dfd0604090808407cb3d019@mail.gmail.com> September 15 no longer feels so far away... (crossposting to wikipedia-l). As to other versions of the release : Do you think it is worth creating a simple, one-paragraph version for the tiny languages, in which we may not be able to find someone conversant in both that language and english? Will there be separate HTML and text-only versions again? I copied the en: page to [[m:How to distribute a press release]], and added a few FAQ at the end. For the meta page, it would be nice to get information on distributing press releases from people outside the US... I imagine it is rather different in Japan, for example. --Sj On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 07:22:41 -0700, Michael Snow wrote: > The press release is now in its final version. The text has been frozen > should not be edited any further. If you have started translating the > press release already, please update your translation to reflect the > final version. > > If the press release has not been translated into your language yet, > please post an announcement on your Wikipedia asking for someone who can > do that. Translation is being coordinated at: > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/PR-1mil > > Different languages may add content that would be of local interest to > media in that language. I would recommend that any such additions be > kept brief, so that the overall press release is not too long. > > We are still planning for the press release to start going out on > September 15 when we reach one million articles. Thank you to everyone > who has helped so far, and to everyone who will help when it comes time > to distribute the press release as well. -- +sj+ http://tinyurl.com/4df8s From maveric149 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 8 17:04:51 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 10:04:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Press release finalized In-Reply-To: <413F15B1.7070900@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040908170451.84496.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> Great work Michael and everbody else who has been working on this! --- Michael Snow wrote: > The press release is now in its final version. The text has been frozen > should not be edited any further. If you have started translating the > press release already, please update your translation to reflect the > final version. > > If the press release has not been translated into your language yet, > please post an announcement on your Wikipedia asking for someone who can > do that. Translation is being coordinated at: > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/PR-1mil > > Different languages may add content that would be of local interest to > media in that language. I would recommend that any such additions be > kept brief, so that the overall press release is not too long. > > We are still planning for the press release to start going out on > September 15 when we reach one million articles. Thank you to everyone > who has helped so far, and to everyone who will help when it comes time > to distribute the press release as well. > > --Michael Snow > > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From thoane at altern.org Thu Sep 9 02:05:27 2004 From: thoane at altern.org (Ashar Voultoiz) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 04:05:27 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Help Request: Changing an Existing Non-Wiki Project into a Wiki Project In-Reply-To: <000d01c49594$b7a8adc0$230110ac@gateway.2wire.net> References: <000d01c49594$b7a8adc0$230110ac@gateway.2wire.net> Message-ID: James Moore wrote: > Greetings, > > I have for the past four years been the webmaster and chief author of the Outcyclopedia, an online reference guide for the gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender community. I would like to revamp the project into a wiki, using articles already existing on the site, any future articles written by myself or contributors, plus articles forked from Wikipedia, per Wikipedia's copyright guidelines, using and granting permissions under either the GNU or Creative Commons License. > > The change from a site using html to one utilizing PHP, MySQL, and MediaWiki would take me into new territory, technical and otherwise. I would therefore appreciate any and all help and advice which may be offered, especially from persons running their own non-Wikipedia wiki projects, such as Memory Alpha or Jewpedia, and of course any other GLBt Wikipedians that may be out there. Thanks. > > Cheers, > > James > > http://outcyclopedia.0catch.com Hello james, Have a look at the MediaWiki software mailing list: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l That's the best place to get answers :o) -- Ashar Voultoiz From thoane at altern.org Thu Sep 9 02:33:16 2004 From: thoane at altern.org (Ashar Voultoiz) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 04:33:16 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Launch of the Wikimedia Commons In-Reply-To: <8b722b80040907094975f3368b@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b80040907094975f3368b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Angela wrote: > I am pleased to announce that a database has now been set up for the > Wikimedia Commons. > > The site is temporarily located at http://commons.wikimedia.org/ until > the project gets its own domain. > > This provides a space for those interested to begin forming the > guidelines for the site, and to discuss how the software will need to > adapt to make the Commons as useful as possible. > > The previous discussions are now linked to from > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Project_plan. > > Batches of files may be uploaded as compressed zip files. Some time in > the next few days, a script will be written to decompress these zip > files on the server side. Please make sure you use appropriate file > names inside the archives. > > Thanks to Tim Starling for creating the database, and to all those who > have contributed to the discussion so far. > > Angela. Hello, In my mind, MediaWiki is not a software to manage a gallery of pictures or media. As I understand the announcment, the community already choose MediaWiki and will just ask developpers to code new features. Basicly developpers will have to write from scratch a gallery system whereas there is already such software under GPL (example: http://pnavy.com/dcgallery/ with dublin data core support). There is so much features that are needed for a media gallery, that soon the dev team will be overhelmed. What will happen when the community will want dublin core metadata, EXIF automatic parsing, e-commerce, XML-RPC, multiple fields search, ogg tags parsing, videos preview ... We don't even have a license system : we rely on using templates instead wich is clearly not a solution in term of search capabilities. A wiki is not a database, it's a tool to create collaborative text. A media gallery is a database. Guess what ? A wiki system is not meant to act as a media gallery. As for the batch zip uncompression, that just lead to easy vandalism (uploading a 3MB zip can easily generate 1GB of data). In conclusion, the "commons" idea have been around for sometime now, we should not start things in a hurry and hope to fix it later. It will just give us a LOT more works. Instead I think we should carefully plan the project needs, do and don't, find an already existent solution and then either use it or enhance it (that's what GPL softwares are all about). cheers, -- Ashar Voultoiz From erik_moeller at gmx.de Thu Sep 9 03:51:00 2004 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: 09 Sep 2004 05:51:00 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Launch of the Wikimedia Commons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9GZsat6hpVB@erik_moeller> Ashar- > In my mind, MediaWiki is not a software to manage a gallery of pictures > or media. Hmmm, kind of a bad naming choice for the software then ;-) > There is so much features that are needed for a media gallery, that soon > the dev team will be overhelmed. What will happen when the community > will want dublin core metadata, EXIF automatic parsing, e-commerce, > XML-RPC, multiple fields search, ogg tags parsing, videos preview ... Each of these features must be judged on its merits. As you pointed out on wikitech-l, the template system provides us with a direct path towards metadata. An existing gallery system is not an option as this is not what we are trying to create here. Users are encouraged, for example, to edit captions as they see fit, or to replace images with higher quality versions. We want to use all the cool features a wiki gives us - recent changes, diffs, page histories, and so on. Wikis are something fundamentally new. Old software concepts do not apply. We need to instead think about how we transfer the benefits of the wiki to different applications. For example, there's no reason not to have a specific editing template associated with a namespace, so that all pages within that namespace have certain defined fields, and still allow diffs and versioning. As for galleries, a tag that accepts a list of images seems like the best solution. For the actual gallery generation we may be able to use some existing code. MediaWiki, in my vision of it, should eventually be capable of intelligently dealing with a wide range of media and enable massive online collaboration on them (it could interface with network-enabled purpose- specific applications like Inkscape or the GIMP to allow several people to work on the same image at the same time). The fundamental core idea of the wiki is not just "a page that anyone can edit", but "a way for people to collaborate on content without barriers." There's indeed no need to hurry. While I find the early launch of the Commons somewhat suboptimal, I am sure that it will evolve together with the software. Regards, Erik From andrew.lih at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 03:59:12 2004 From: andrew.lih at gmail.com (Andrew Lih) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 11:59:12 +0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Fact-index.com financially supports the Wikimedia Foundation In-Reply-To: <8b722b8004090808089dba4b0@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b8004090808089dba4b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ed171fb04090820593fb7df4e@mail.gmail.com> It might be useful to define different tiers of support, and preferred (or dare I say, approved) language that sites like Fact-index.com can use in advertising their "support" for Wikipedia. That would prevent someone in the future from giving a paltry sum and claiming they financially support Wikipedia. -Andrew (User:Fuzheado) On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 16:08:20 +0100, Angela_ wrote: > On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 14:11:51 +0000 (UTC), Walter Vermeir > wrote: > > *Fact-index.com financially supports the Wikimedia Foundation*. Is this true? > > Fact-index have made a substantial donation to the Foundation. Plans > are being made to detail this, and other significant donations, on the > http://wikimediafoundation.org website in future. > > Angela. > > > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > -- Andrew Lih andrew.lih at gmail.com From wikipedia at earthlink.net Thu Sep 9 04:53:35 2004 From: wikipedia at earthlink.net (Michael Snow) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 21:53:35 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Fact-index.com financially supports the Wikimedia Foundation In-Reply-To: <20040909035919.4C6071AC02F3@mail.wikimedia.org> References: <20040909035919.4C6071AC02F3@mail.wikimedia.org> Message-ID: <413FE1CF.6050300@earthlink.net> Angela_ wrote: >On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 14:11:51 +0000 (UTC), Walter Vermeir > wrote: > > >>*Fact-index.com financially supports the Wikimedia Foundation*. Is this true? >> >> >Fact-index have made a substantial donation to the Foundation. Plans >are being made to detail this, and other significant donations, on the >http://wikimediafoundation.org website in future. > Fact-index is a mirror that apparently makes its money by combining Wikipedia content with Google ads. With them donating some of this money to the Foundation, the end result is that Wikipedia manages to raise money through advertising even though Wikipedia itself remains free of commercial advertising. Having your cake and eating it too is an impressive trick. --Michael Snow From zh.wikipedia at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 09:15:42 2004 From: zh.wikipedia at gmail.com (ZH Wikipedia) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 17:15:42 +0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Fwd: Stop zh-tw WP ! In-Reply-To: <3238fb28040909011651b1357@mail.gmail.com> References: <3238fb28040909011651b1357@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3238fb2804090902156d4e8a1@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: ZH Wikipedia Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 16:16:08 +0800 Subject: Stop zh-tw WP ! To: wikitech-l-request at wikimedia.org Plese Stop zh-tw WP (http://zh-tw.wikipedia.org/). We zh WP users just study the automatic conversion work between traditional form and the simplified Chinese word, see also http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:%E7%B9%81%E7%AE%80%E4%BD%93%E9%97%AE%E9%A2%98 and http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Babel/Archive1#Traditional_and_Simpified_Chinese_UI [[zh:user:shizhao]] From jwales at wikia.com Thu Sep 9 10:23:56 2004 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 03:23:56 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Launch of the Wikimedia Commons In-Reply-To: References: <8b722b80040907094975f3368b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040909102355.GL906@wikia.com> Ashar Voultoiz wrote: > In conclusion, the "commons" idea have been around for sometime now, we > should not start things in a hurry and hope to fix it later. It will > just give us a LOT more works. Instead I think we should carefully plan > the project needs, do and don't, find an already existent solution and > then either use it or enhance it (that's what GPL softwares are all about). While I very much understand and agree with what you're saying, the situation is that this is a major pressing need *today*, and there's much demand for even this step forward. If there is some other software that you know about which we could evaluate and test this week, and install next week, that'd be a good thing. But in the meantime, we had to just get the ball rolling. --Jimbo From big-ben at haefft.de Thu Sep 9 15:34:51 2004 From: big-ben at haefft.de (big-ben at haefft.de) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 15:34:51 Subject: [Foundation-l] de.wikisource.org Message-ID: <20040909133454.0C7D31AC018D@mail.wikimedia.org> Hello! We want to set up a German Version of Wikisource. I've already posted the request for a new subdomain here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_new_projects But the side states the following: "Meta-wiki is not really much frequented, therefore it is recommended that you also send a posting to the Foundation-l mailing-list to announce your proposal." So here I am to announce my proposal. To get more information look at the link above. Here I've got a copy of the proposal on meta-wiki: Wikisource in German Link to request on mailing list: Domain name: de.wikisource.org Name of user requesting this language: Kaiser Bob Details: People interested joining: Kaiser Bob, Pythagoras1, Dovi, Xarax Relevant links: - Talk on the German Main Page of wikisource - http://wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:Scriptorium/Language_domain_proposal I hope, that a developer can set this up soon. Goodbye. Kaiser Bob -- cent thru freemehl on www.haefft.de From delirium at hackish.org Thu Sep 9 15:38:32 2004 From: delirium at hackish.org (Delirium) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 11:38:32 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Launch of the Wikimedia Commons In-Reply-To: <9GZsat6hpVB@erik_moeller> References: <9GZsat6hpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <414078F8.5090206@hackish.org> Erik Moeller wrote: >Each of these features must be judged on its merits. As you pointed out on >wikitech-l, the template system provides us with a direct path towards >metadata. An existing gallery system is not an option as this is not what >we are trying to create here. Users are encouraged, for example, to edit >captions as they see fit, or to replace images with higher quality >versions. We want to use all the cool features a wiki gives us - recent >changes, diffs, page histories, and so on. > >Wikis are something fundamentally new. Old software concepts do not apply. > > I don't think that's really true: A wiki is just something you can edit from a web browser. Most of what it does is does in clunkier form elsewhere (editing the pages with emacs and diff'ing using CVS is a trivial example), but wikis make it easier for a non-technical user. This gallery really should have the benefits of both editability and strong database support. Whether it's better to start from an existing gallery system and add editability to it, or start from a wiki and add metadata/EXIF/etc. to it is largely a matter of preference and ease of technical implementation. -Mark From zh.wikipedia at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 00:19:29 2004 From: zh.wikipedia at gmail.com (ZH Wikipedia) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:19:29 +0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Google Grants: Google for non-profit organizations provides 3 months of free AdWords Message-ID: <3238fb28040909171945306105@mail.gmail.com> See http://www.google.com/grants/ [[user:shizhao]] From chris_mahan at yahoo.com Fri Sep 10 00:33:09 2004 From: chris_mahan at yahoo.com (Christopher Mahan) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 17:33:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Google Grants: Google for non-profit organizations provides 3 months of free AdWords In-Reply-To: <3238fb28040909171945306105@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040910003309.85703.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com> --- ZH Wikipedia wrote: > See http://www.google.com/grants/ Is it not the case that we gen enough traffic as it is? What we need is donation money. ===== Chris Mahan 818.943.1850 cell chris_mahan at yahoo.com chris.mahan at gmail.com http://www.christophermahan.com/ _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com/backtoschool From bannedneedle at yahoo.com Fri Sep 10 16:32:31 2004 From: bannedneedle at yahoo.com (Mr Paul Vogel) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:32:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] China censoring Wikipedia? Lying hypocrisy? Message-ID: <20040910163231.78116.qmail@web53607.mail.yahoo.com> Jews and Marxists Censoring Wikipedia On-Line Encyclopedia: The following neutral point of view article at Wikipedia, an on-line encyclopedia, on Cosmotheism has been relentlessly edited and censored by a few Jews and Social-Marxists to slander and mis-lead any readers. See below: '''Cosmotheism''' is a form of [[classical pantheism]] that identifies [[God]] with the ''cosmos'', that is, with the [[universe]] as a unified whole. ==Overview== Cosmotheism asserts that "all is within God and God is within all". It considers the nature of reality and of existence to be mutable and destined to co-evolve towards a complete "universal consciousness", or godhood. [[etymology|Etymologically]], ''Cosmotheism'' differs from 'Pan-theism' in that "pan" is [[Ancient Greek|Classical Greek]] for ''all'', while the Greek word ''cosmos'' means an orderly and harmonious universe. Cosmotheists take this as meaning the divine is tantamount to reality and consciousness, an inseparable part of an orderly, harmonious, and whole universal system. In its broadest sense, the word Cosmotheism may be considered simply as being synonymous with ''[[pantheism]]'', although not all modern pantheists would accept Cosmotheism as a synonym for their own worldview due to the historical association of Cosmotheism with a political movement, [[white separatism]], which some within the pantheist community may find objectionable. According to a Cosmotheist Web site dedicated to the late Dr.[[William Luther Pierce|William Pierce]]: :"''Cosmotheism is a religion which positively asserts that there is an internal purpose in life and in cosmos, and there is an essential unity, or consciousness that binds all living beings and all of the inorganic cosmos, as one.''" :"''What is our true human identity is we are the cosmos made self-aware and self-conscious by evolution. ''" :"''Our true human purpose is to know and to complete ourselves as conscious individuals and also as a self-aware species and thereby to co-evolve with the cosmos towards total and universal awareness, and towards the ever higher perfection of consciousness and being.''"[http://www.cosmotheism.net/] Some claim [[Albert Einstein]] was a Cosmotheist, [http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1982/JASA3-82Seeger.html], along with [[Carl Sagan]], [[Benedict Spinoza]] and other historical figures—although there is no quoted evidence of any of these three claiming to be "cosmotheist" as such, and all could also be said to be [[Pantheist]]. ==Mordekhay Nesiyahu's Cosmotheism== In [[Israel]], Cosmotheism was described by [[Mordekhay Nesiyahu]], one of the foremost ideologists of the [[Israeli Labor Movement]] and a lecturer in its college Beit Berl in Israel. In ''Cosmotheism — Israel, Zionism, Judaism and Humanity towards the 21st Century'', Nesiyahu proposed not to just assume the existence of God, being "prior to all that was created," but to consider God as only being a result of the development of the universe and the consciousness of all of humankind. Divinity in this particular view is inherently a human invention. The development of the divine (or what the believer would qualify as being "the revelation of the Divine") was, in Nesiyahu's opinion, both the condition for a more exalted human functioning and all that bears the fruit that comes out of it. In Nesiyahu's universalist re-imagining of a secular divinity, the universal celebration of Cosmotheism is the basis for rebuilding the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem, and is also a secular ethnically Jewish and a Zionist contribution to all of humankind. ==William L. Pierce's Cosmotheism== ===Origins=== In the United States, ''Cosmotheism'' sometimes refers to a religion adopted in [[1978]] by [[National Alliance]] founder and [[white separatist]] Dr. [[William Luther Pierce|William L. Pierce]]. Pierce affirms his cosmotheist belief in a speech that he once gave entitled "Our Cause": :''"All we require is that you share with us a commitment to the simple, but great, truth which I have explained to you here, that you understand that you are a part of the whole, which is the creator, that you understand that your purpose, the purpose of mankind and the purpose of every other part of creation, is the creator's purpose, that this purpose is the never-ending ascent of the path of creation, the path of life symbolized by our life rune, that you understand that this path leads ever upward toward the creator's self-realization, and that the destiny of those who follow this path is godhood."'' His interpretation of cosmotheism ([http://baldur.libertyforum.net:8079/Our_Cause.txt]) was greatly influenced by several disparate factors: interpretations of [[George Bernard Shaw]]'s play ''[[Man and Superman]]''; strains of [[German Romanticism]]; [[Charles Darwin|Darwinian]] concepts of [[natural selection]] and of survival of the fittest, mixed with the related early [[20th century]] [[eugenics|eugenic]] ideals; and [[Ernst Haeckel]]'s version of [[monism]]. ===Religion, society, and race=== The foundation of Pierce's Cosmotheism was essentially similar to classical monistic pantheism — he recognized no physical difference or separation between human and divine, between creator and created — but with a few differences. Pierce described his form of Cosmotheism as being based on "[t]he idea of an evolutionary universe ... with an evolution toward ever higher and higher states of self-consciousness," and his political ideas were centered on racial purity and [[eugenics]] as the means of advancing the [[white race]] first towards a superhuman state, and then towards godhood. In his view, the white race represented the pinnacle of human evolution thus far and therefore should be kept genetically separate from all other races in order to achieve its destined perfection in Godhood. Pierce believed in a hierarchical society governed by what he saw as the essential principles of nature, including the survival of the fittest. In his social schema, the best-adapted genetic stock, which he believed to be the [[white race]], should remain separated from other races; and within an all-white society, the most fit individuals should lead the rest. He thought that extensive programs of "racial cleansing" and of [[eugenics]], both in Europe and in the U.S., would be necessary to achieve this socio-political program. His [[National Alliance]] was to be the political vanguard and the spiritual priesthood of this program, which was designed ultimately to bring about a "White racial redemption". His Cosmotheist Community Church, which was to be the next step of this plan, was set up in the mid-1970s, alongside Pierce's other political projects — the National Alliance, National Vanguard Books, and the weekly broadcast ''American Dissident Voices'' — all from his mountain retreat headquarters in West Virginia. ===Critical assessments=== Pierce's views have been characterized as a version of early twentieth century racial anthropology, but driven by spiritual, as well as scientific, beliefs. This area of his belief was likely influenced by his early association with [[George Lincoln Rockwell]]'s [[American Nazi Party]]. Others have noted the German Romantic roots that Pierce's ideas shared with [[Nazism]] and have observed similarities between the two ideologies: Pierce's plan for white divinity was similar to [[Adolf Hitler]]'s vision for the ''[[Master race|Herrenvolk]]''; also, his attacks against Jews as "parasites" on white society, who would prevent the white race from reaching its destined godhood by replacing the white elite with their own kind, echoed previous Nazi descriptions of Jewish traits and character. [http://www.natvan.com/who-rules-america/wra.pdf] Other criticisms have been harsher; for example, the [[Southern Poverty Law Center]] has characterized Pierce's Cosmotheism as "an unsuccessful tax dodge". (Followers of Pierce's cosmotheism call many of these characterizations erroneous, some [[National Alliance]] members attributing them to "Marxist politically-correct slander and dogmatism.") ==Related articles== *[[Classical pantheism]] *[[Creativity Movement]] *[[Eugenics]] *[[List of Pantheists]] *[[Pan-atheism]] *[[Panentheism]] *[[Pantheism]] *[[Pseudo-pantheism]] ==References== *''Cosmotheism, Israel, Zionism, Judaism and Humanity - towards the 21st Century'' by Mordecai Nesinyahu (Poetica - Tuvi Sopher Publishing, Tel Aviv.) *''Gods of the Blood: The Pagan Revival and White Separatism'', by Mattias Gardell (ISBN 0822330717) *''The Turner Diaries and Cosmotheism: William Pierce's Theology of Revolution'', by Brad Whitsel; published in ''Nova Religio'' Vol.1, No.2, April 1998. ==External links== === Mordekhay Nesiyahu's cosmotheism === *[http://members.tripod.com/~TheHOPE/mikt2.htm Nesiyahu's interpretation of Cosmotheism] ===William L. Pierce's Cosmotheism === ====Jewish-Marxist and Pan-atheist Criticism==== *[http://www.alphalink.com.au/~radnat/usanazis/cosmotheism.html ''The Turner Diaries and Cosmotheism: William Pierce's Theology of Revolution''] by Brad Whitsel (''Nova Religio'') *''Gods of the Blood: The Pagan Revival and White Separatism'', by Mattias Gardell (ISBN 0822330717) *[http://www.pantheist-index.net/Distortions_Aberrations/Hugenholtz.html ''A Blemish on the Blossom: Pantheism and White-Supremacist Hate Groups''] by Esther Hugenholtz (''Pantheist Index'') *[http://www.encyclopedia4u.com/p/pseudo-pantheism.html Pseudo-Pantheism] (Encyclopedia4U) ====Advocacy==== *[http://www.cosmotheism.net Cosmotheism site] **[http://bks.ark11.net/dpm.htm A Tribute to the late Dr. William L. Pierce] **[http://www.cosmotheism.net/thepath.shtml The Path], by Dr. William L. Pierce **[http://www.cosmotheism.net/onlivingthings.shtml On Living Things], by Dr. William L. Pierce **[http://www.cosmotheism.net/onsociety.shtml On Society] by Dr. William L. Pierce **[http://www.cosmotheism.net/affirmations.shtml An example of a Cosmotheist affirmation of belief] **[http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=3482 Our Cause, A Speech on Cosmotheism by the late Dr. William L. Pierce] **[http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0759609330/102-6676005-3434513?v=glance "The Fame of a Man's Deeds"] [[Category:Pantheism]] Anyone can edit this article, but, active Jewish bigots and Social-Marxists have been deliberately distorting and censoring any factual and accurate information there. Anyone reading here that can help to fight this censorship and this deliberate mis-representation of Cosmotheism can go to this Wikipedia website and do a search on "Cosmotheism" and can go edit and fight this biased and bigoted Jewish censorship and slander of the religion of Cosmotheism found here: http://www.cosmotheism.net Best regards, Paul Vogel aka the NEEDLE http://www.cosmotheism.net __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 16:54:52 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:54:52 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Google Grants: Google for non-profit organizations provides 3 months of free AdWords In-Reply-To: <20040910003309.85703.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com> References: <3238fb28040909171945306105@mail.gmail.com> <20040910003309.85703.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <742dfd0604091009547bafa34b@mail.gmail.com> Hmm, we have too much traffic? Is that like having too much information in Wikipedia? I think the only problem here is that we're not yet a 501c3. On Thu, 9 Sep 2004 17:33:09 -0700 (PDT), Christopher Mahan wrote: > > --- ZH Wikipedia wrote: > > > See http://www.google.com/grants/ > > Is it not the case that we gen enough traffic as it is? What we need > is donation money. > > ===== > Chris Mahan > 818.943.1850 cell > chris_mahan at yahoo.com > chris.mahan at gmail.com > http://www.christophermahan.com/ > > > _______________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping. > http://shopping.yahoo.com/backtoschool > > > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > -- +sj+ _ _ :-------.-.--------.--.--------.-.--------.--.--------[...] From elian at djini.de Fri Sep 10 16:40:11 2004 From: elian at djini.de (Elisabeth Bauer) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:40:11 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikipedia meetup 2005 Message-ID: <4141D8EB.2070408@djini.de> Hello, At ars electronica in Linz Jimbo and I had the idea to hold a Wikipedia meetup next summer. Since people from as many wikimedia projects as possible should be able to participate we decided on Europe as the best place to do this, and we'll be trying to get funding for wikipedians from other continents to join in the fun. Now, the exact location is to be decided. There are several important criterias, like number of local wikipedians, closeness to an international airport, costs and abilities of conference facilities... The details can be found on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_meetup_2005 Where the conference is hosted will be a community decision along the lines of the Olympic games selection: I'd like to encourage everyone to place proposals on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_meetup_2005 with detailed information so we can choose the place which offers the most advantages. Most important are of course conference facilities and dates where they are still free. Since most conference facilities have to be booked long in advance and there will be enough organisational stuff left to do, I suggest a deadline of one month, ending 10th of october. Please translate this posting and make it public in your project so that as many wikipedians as possible have a chance to participate in the discussion and the choice. greetings, Elian From elian at djini.de Sat Sep 11 02:36:48 2004 From: elian at djini.de (Elisabeth Bauer) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 04:36:48 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] new stuff on meta-wiki: ars electronica report and calendar Message-ID: <414264C0.2070105@djini.de> Hiho, The report of Wikipedia at the ars electronica in Linz can be found on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Linz_cyberarts_festival_2004 In Linz we had also the idea of creating a Wikipedia calendar to better keep track of important stuff such as events, deadlines for funding proposals, press releases etc. It's on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Calendar Please use it freely. There's not much in there at the moment, later we could introduce more color codes to separate certain type of events. greetings, elian From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 04:12:00 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 00:12:00 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] new stuff on meta-wiki: ars electronica report and calendar In-Reply-To: <414264C0.2070105@djini.de> References: <414264C0.2070105@djini.de> Message-ID: <742dfd06040910211214427acc@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 04:36:48 +0200, Elisabeth Bauer wrote: > In Linz we had also the idea of creating a Wikipedia calendar to better > keep track of important stuff such as events, deadlines for funding > proposals, press releases etc. It's on > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Calendar This is cool, since we added a calendar to the end of the newsletter at the same time. The newsletter's calendar also includes a few major events from the past year; you can see (and update) its outline at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/NL-1/En%3A#8 Liking the idea of color-coding certain events, +Sj+ _ _ :-------.-.--------.--.--------.-.--------.--.--------[...] From kissall at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 18:52:10 2004 From: kissall at gmail.com (Kiss All) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 13:52:10 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] An urgent Proposal: A fair, effective and free rewarding system for WikiPedia volunteers Message-ID: <384f6ad4040911115265f4b514@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, This idea appeared in my mind when I was in bathroom this morning . And hope I am using the right words and sentences to express my idea because English is not my mother tongue. :-) Proposal: * We ***MUST*** find fair,effective, and free ways to reward, either spiritually or financially, those volunteers who are diligently, consistently creating and editing high-quality articles in wikipedia site family. * And We also **MUST** extend this reward method to any person who directly or indirectly contributed or are contributing to wikipeida site family by any means. == Do we really need this? Absolutely! == By fairly and effectively rewarding those page creating and editing volunteers, we can encourage and enable current volunteers to do even better work and attract more new voluteers to participate in this magnificent, world-wide cooperation which will definitely benefit to our planet in the future . Actually, a positive feedback cycle could be established in this way and WikiPedia would have a model to grow rapidly and healthily: volunteers write/edit good articles--> more people are willing to read them, find they are useful and reward the volunteers --> volunteers get rewarding, either spiritually or financially -->voluteers are encouraged and be able to write more good articles --> ... I am not treating volunteers as experimental white mice here(Remeber I am one of them). But this cycle simply works! Doesn't it? Of course, there are some people don't need any kind of reward to do excellent work, just let them be and provide an option to turn off the rewarding faucet to them :-) == Mission Impossible? Fair, Effective, and Free? == === How to be Fair? === *let all readers/visiters have an equally chance to participate in grading any volunteer and any article (or even any section) in terms of quality and quantiy. * A convenient way for readers to grade current article or section. * A convenient way for readers to grade each volunteer * Or we can just focus the quality of the article, let computer derive the grading of the volunteers from the articles ? No, I don't like this way. Computers are not smart enough to identify real work or junk work currently. And somebody could abuse it if he/she knows the deriving algorithms. ===How to be Effective?=== Simply and easy: Give them Fame! && Give them money! Needless to say, all volunteers deserve fame and money via their excellent work. Again turn off the rewarding faucet to people who don't want those two :-) ==== Fame ==== * Showing their names (even nicknames work well enough for encouraging purpose)explicitly under the title of each article(or even each section if it is peice of enough work), sorted by grading numbers provided by readers/visiters which can be used to identify the quality and quantity of their work * Better organization of the contribution information for individual volunteers. I don't want talk too much about it this time, but the current page for this is a mess. * A centralized monument(a php page actually) carved in the important names and their pictures(if they don't mind) who contributed a lot to wikipedia in history (though it is a short history) * A centralized room to showing current star volunteers with highest grading number along with their pictures if they don't mind. ==== Money ==== * Let readers/visitors have changes to directly donate money flawlessly(1 cent, 1 dollar or one house if they really want) to the volunteers at their own will. * Or let them donate all to WikiPedia and let WikiPida distribute them? NO!NO!NO! Some bureaucrats could abuse their power and ruin the whole direct and fair reward mechanism. We already have the option for visitors to donate to WikiMedia Foundation directly.Don't mess them up. ===How to be free? === It is actually care-free enough for WikiPedia Site family if we use the methods I mentioned above. ===Is it feasible? === I cannot see any technical obstacles to prevent us from realizing this grading-rewarding system. However, we need consult experts for the non-technical issues, I am not a lawyer. And more over, it is not a new idea at all. I saw something similar happening in sourceforge.net. == Its impact on the future== Finally, what is the impact of this open, direct,and discrete working-rewarding model on our world in the future? I would say: A revolution has began! Why? This model can facilitate people to do what they really have interested in while get the reward they deserve if their interests can actually benefit a large group of people in some way. The direct feature of this model also eliminates most of the intermediate costs or overhead which is not unusual in current world. By contrast, traditionally, we have to be employeed by some organizations for a relatively longer time to contribute our wisdom, knowledge, and efforts to end-users indirectly. However, our interests are usually changing and sometimes we are feeling be forced to do something we no longer like to do. The worse thing is that the reward from the end-user are so indirect that sometimes the people between us and the users grab a large portion from it in an amount of we think they do not deserve. The result is quite obvious: we get really frustrated and therefore work ineffectively. Hey! I am not saying this model can completely phase off the traditional work model. The people between the workers and users are indeed necessary for many big products, the presure imposed by employers serves as stimulant for us to secrete more adrenalin to become more powerful and energic than usual, and there is no detour to gain real achievement without loyal to your original faith and interest. What I am really going to emphasize is that some real requirements in our world can be fulfilled better in simpler, directer, and even discrete way. And, We already have paid enough attention to the free spirit of software sharing,knowlege sharing and so on and so forth. It is time for us to see another unadulterated side of this coin: the sharing is also joyfull, profitable, and thus sustainable and scalable. In conclusion, please seriously consider my above proposal and the meaning behind it. Let's put it in roll as soon as possible! I bet it will make a big difference to wikipedia site family, the whole free resource community(no matter it is a idea, a software, a valuable experience,an encyclopedia article, a piece of knowledge or anything else useful to our world), and most important, it may make a big difference to you, my lovely, respectable friends combating in this money? world for the noble ideal of sharing knowlege among the world for free. I am also puting this initial, unmature proposal into page http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/A_Fair%2C_Effective_and_Free_Rewarding_System_for_WikiPedia_Volunteers Please refine it (English is a pain for me) and add your ideas or comments if you are interested. I am waiting for your response...... Best Regards, kissall -- Be good.... From chris_mahan at yahoo.com Sat Sep 11 22:28:01 2004 From: chris_mahan at yahoo.com (Christopher Mahan) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 15:28:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] An urgent Proposal: A fair, effective and free rewarding system for WikiPedia volunteers In-Reply-To: <384f6ad4040911115265f4b514@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040911222801.33563.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kiss All wrote: > Dear all, > > This idea appeared in my mind when I was in bathroom this morning . Personally, no. My reward to volunteering for Wikipedia is that I get to do something mostly fun with mostly fun people. ===== Chris Mahan 818.943.1850 cell chris_mahan at yahoo.com chris.mahan at gmail.com http://www.christophermahan.com/ _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com/backtoschool From the_pokemon_master at hotmail.com Sat Sep 11 23:11:13 2004 From: the_pokemon_master at hotmail.com (Christopher Larberg) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 16:11:13 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] An urgent Proposal: A fair, effective and free rewarding system for WikiPedia volunteers References: <20040911222801.33563.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Seconded. I edit Wikipedia because I want to, not because I'm getting rewards for doing so. I'd like it to stay that way. --Slowking Man ----- Original Message ----- From: Christopher Mahan To: Kiss All ; Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 3:28 PM Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] An urgent Proposal: A fair,effective and free rewarding system for WikiPedia volunteers --- Kiss All > wrote: > Dear all, > > This idea appeared in my mind when I was in bathroom this morning . Personally, no. My reward to volunteering for Wikipedia is that I get to do something mostly fun with mostly fun people. ===== Chris Mahan 818.943.1850 cell chris_mahan at yahoo.com chris.mahan at gmail.com http://www.christophermahan.com/ From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 12 01:45:59 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 18:45:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] An urgent Proposal: A fair, effective and free rewarding system for WikiPedia volunteers In-Reply-To: <384f6ad4040911115265f4b514@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040912014559.59211.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kiss All wrote: > * We ***MUST*** find fair,effective, and free ways to reward, either > spiritually or financially, those volunteers who are diligently, > consistently creating and editing high-quality articles in wikipedia > site family. We are rewarding good work on the English Wikipedia through the featured article selection process. I for one have switched from making a great many small edits and creating a great many small articles to concentrating my attention on just a few articles at a time in order to make them good enough to go successfully go through the featured article selection process. -- mav __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From kissall at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 03:16:14 2004 From: kissall at gmail.com (Kiss All) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:16:14 -0500 Subject: Fwd: [Foundation-l] An urgent Proposal: A fair, effective and free rewarding system for WikiPedia volunteers In-Reply-To: <384f6ad404091120037650da05@mail.gmail.com> References: <384f6ad4040911115265f4b514@mail.gmail.com> <20040911222801.33563.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com> <384f6ad404091120037650da05@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <384f6ad40409112016c2dc20@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Kiss All Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:03:36 -0500 Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] An urgent Proposal: A fair, effective and free rewarding system for WikiPedia volunteers To: Christopher Mahan I know I wrote too much in my proposal and readers will lost in it. I'd like to simplify it as this : 1. I just want to add major authors' names under each article, it is an option for authors. 2. give the authors' option to get direct donation from their readers. Both of them are optional. Nothing more and nothing less. Isn't it better to give more choices to authors of articles? I guess you are one of those persons who don't need any external reward to do excellent wiki work I already mentioned in this proposal. :-). However, would you feel even better if you could see the exciting rating number from readers about your work and their continuous attempt to donate some money to you? It is not late for you to choose refusing themt at that time. People sometimes are too confident about what they are doing and ignore other's feelings and what it is really good for . My current poposal is a typical example. I thought it is a terrific idea. But the responses to it till now are mostly negative. Therefore, I still think it is good to to let authors and readers interact more by providing direct rating facilities . An attempt does not harm anybody I think. Personally, I would like to to see direct feedback from readers of my articles. Just like I know my proposal got a 2 out of 5 :( Anyway, thank you very much for your response in your valuable weekend time. I have the same confident in my this proposal as you do in your wiki editing. I will insist it. Best Regards. On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 15:28:01 -0700 (PDT), Christopher Mahan > > Personally, no. > > My reward to volunteering for Wikipedia is that I get to do something > mostly fun with mostly fun people. > > ===== > Chris Mahan > 818.943.1850 cell > chris_mahan at yahoo.com > chris.mahan at gmail.com > http://www.christophermahan.com/ > > > _______________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping. > http://shopping.yahoo.com/backtoschool > -- Be good.... -- Be good.... From kissall at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 03:16:45 2004 From: kissall at gmail.com (Kiss All) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:16:45 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [Wikitech-l] An urgent Proposal: A fair, effective and free rewarding system for WikiPedia volunteers In-Reply-To: <384f6ad4040911201426eef4cb@mail.gmail.com> References: <384f6ad4040911115265f4b514@mail.gmail.com> <7ce338ad04091118504f1d14a4@mail.gmail.com> <384f6ad4040911201426eef4cb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <384f6ad40409112016878b0da@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Kiss All Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:14:19 -0500 Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] An urgent Proposal: A fair, effective and free rewarding system for WikiPedia volunteers To: Krzysztof Kowalczyk I revoke my MUST here. Thank you for your good comments. I think what I said are better to be optional. 1. let authors choose to appear their names under the articles or not 2. let authors choose to get direct donation from readers or not > The problem with your proposition is that it radically alters how the > system works. While you're of course convinced that the new system > will work so much better, I personally don't see it that way. I agree you. The existing works good enough. I think it would work better with these two more options. > First there's a very flawed assumption that just giving people ability > to donate will create enough dontations to support the system. I may not clear express my idea. I never mentioned the funds to wikipedia. All I concerns are about those volunteers. And I really know even for volunteers, the donation cannot pay them rent or food , not to mention wikipedia sites. > There there's also this fact that, while the issue isn't completely > settled, there is psychological research saying that extrinsic > rewards, contrary to naive but popular belief, not only doesn't > increase performance, but actually lowers it, see e.g.: Why don't we try it if this isn't settled ? All I propose now is to provide two more options to authors. It would be more convincing to see the difference from our own practice rather than showing some extra research. Research results could only be used as references I guess. Best Regards. -- Be good.... From jwales at wikia.com Sun Sep 12 14:21:56 2004 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 07:21:56 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Rewarding volunteers Message-ID: <20040912142156.GA1828@wikia.com> Just to say my usual bit about this, I'm all for rewarding volunteers, and the best way to do that is with kind words, mutual respect, and admiration for good deeds. Mathematical formulas can never replace taking the time to say "thank you" or "I am a fan of your work" when you see an article that you like. Algorithmic reputation systems are always a temptation, just because they are possible. But human reputation systems are much more nuanced and powerful. --Jimbo -- "La n??fle est un fruit." - first words of 50,000th article on fr.wikipedia.org From john at collison.ie Sun Sep 12 16:51:12 2004 From: john at collison.ie (John Collison) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 17:51:12 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Rewarding volunteers In-Reply-To: <20040912142156.GA1828@wikia.com> References: <20040912142156.GA1828@wikia.com> Message-ID: I have to say I agree with Jimbo on this one. I was thinking about Wikipedia in the future for a while and I think we have to be careful where we go from here. Think about it, Wikipedia started out with a simple vision: a free encyclopedia where anyone could edit anything. Now, sysops, developers etc are getting more power, anons less trusted, and there is talk of paying developers. If we're not cautious, we could end up just like a conventional online encyclopedia. Sort of like the way animal farm went :-/. I think we should try and preserve the original idea of Wikipedia (and Wikimedia projects in general). -- John Collison (Ludraman) P.S. Sorry if I've made some mistake here it's my first time posting on the mailing list! On 12 Sep 2004, at 15:21, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote: > Just to say my usual bit about this, I'm all for rewarding volunteers, > and the best way to do that is with kind words, mutual respect, and > admiration for good deeds. Mathematical formulas can never replace > taking the time to say "thank you" or "I am a fan of your work" when > you see an article that you like. > > Algorithmic reputation systems are always a temptation, just because > they are possible. But human reputation systems are much more nuanced > and powerful. > > --Jimbo > > > -- > "La n??fle est un fruit." - first words of 50,000th article on > fr.wikipedia.org > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > From delirium at hackish.org Sun Sep 12 18:44:56 2004 From: delirium at hackish.org (Delirium) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 14:44:56 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Rewarding volunteers In-Reply-To: <20040912142156.GA1828@wikia.com> References: <20040912142156.GA1828@wikia.com> Message-ID: <41449928.6090302@hackish.org> Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote: >Algorithmic reputation systems are always a temptation, just because >they are possible. But human reputation systems are much more nuanced >and powerful. > > I wouldn't mind a combination of the two---for example, being able to say "I think so-and-so has been doing a very good job lately". Wikipedia is getting big enough that I can keep track of a handful of people I personally think are doing a good job, but even finding out who, say, the 10 people I trust most themselves trust is a daunting task, and one that could be simplified by algorithms. Then I could have information like "I don't know this person myself, but it looks like a large number of the people I trust trust him/her", which could be useful. Even slightly more complex systems, like having a few multiple ratings---perhaps one for factual knowledge, one for neutrality, one for quality writing, and one for wikiquette---would be useful IMO. Note that I'd propose this _not_ as a global rating, but as a very user-specific rating, with hopefully a small horizon: it would give me ratings based on what I personally rated people, and what the immediate people I rated did (probably not more than two degrees of separation). It wouldn't give a rating like "so and so is rated excellently in general". So in that sense, it wouldn't solve the "reward" problem that was proposed here, but would solve a different problem---I used to know all the regular Wikipedians (and even review almost all of each day's edits and new pages!), but that is nearly impossible these days, so some algorithmic way to help me deal with the information overload would be helpful. Perhaps "show me all new pages created by people who are not known either by me or by the people I know," and various other such filters. -Mark From ropers at ropersonline.com Sun Sep 12 18:49:08 2004 From: ropers at ropersonline.com (Jens Ropers) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 20:49:08 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Rewarding volunteers In-Reply-To: References: <20040912142156.GA1828@wikia.com> Message-ID: <6DB97B39-04EC-11D9-9BF4-0003931DCE20@ropersonline.com> On 12 Sep 2004, at 18:51, John Collison wrote: > I have to say I agree with Jimbo on this one. I was thinking about > Wikipedia in the future for a while and I think we have to be careful > where we go from here. Think about it, Wikipedia started out with a > simple vision: a free encyclopedia where anyone could edit anything. > Now, sysops, developers etc are getting more power, anons less > trusted, and there is talk of paying developers. If we're not > cautious, we could end up just like a conventional online > encyclopedia. Sort of like the way animal farm went :-/. > I think we should try and preserve the original idea of Wikipedia (and > Wikimedia projects in general). > > -- John Collison (Ludraman) > P.S. Sorry if I've made some mistake here it's my first time > posting on the mailing list! I STRONGLY second that!!! -- Jens [[User:Ropers|Ropers]] www.ropersonline.com From erik_moeller at gmx.de Sun Sep 12 23:24:00 2004 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: 13 Sep 2004 01:24:00 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Rewarding volunteers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9GovFw6hpVB@erik_moeller> John- > simple vision: a free encyclopedia where anyone could edit anything. > Now, sysops, developers etc are getting more power, That happened when? Sysops have no irreversible powers and are accountable to their own peers as well as the entire community. On the English Wikipedia, there is a ridiculously complex procedure for dealing with obvious problem users, which in most cases never amounts to anything. Trolls and morons violate policies with impunity on a regular basis. Just check the history of any controversial article on Wikipedia. Developer "powers" were actually recently reduced by creating a new class of privileged users trusted by the community, stewards. Developers have no privileges when it comes to policy decisions over normal users. Important policy decisions have been increasingly *democratized* in the last few months, and a board was elected in order to replace the previous benevolent dictator model. Before that, there even was a time when Wikipedia had an Editor in Chief who quite aggressively pursued a singular vision of building the project. So, given that the trend is the exact opposite of what you claim it is, I can either deduce that you know nothing about Wikimedia's history, or that you are living in a parallel universe superimposed over own where time runs in the opposite direction. Which is it? > anons less trusted, Anons were *never* trusted, and for good reason. Trust is based on experience, and you cannot build experiences with someone you don't know. Even so, using technological improvements like templates, people send polite messages to even vandals and spammers before they are blocked: Thanks for experimenting with Wikipedia. Your test worked, and has now been removed. Please use Wikipedia:Sandbox for any other tests you want to do, since testing material in articles will normally be removed quickly. Please see the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia. Thanks. We have an almost masochistic relationship to abusers, we tolerate them until it starts to bleed. For every deletion, there is a debate, and when the debate becomes long, that usually means the content isn't deleted (no consensus!). We tolerate the crappiest articles you can imagine about the most insignificant fictional character in a minor video game franchise. If you suggested publicly that as a project with 1,000,000 articles we no longer need to allow people to edit who are not even willing to go through a 15-second-registration-process, the resulting outcry in the wikisphere would cause major floods and earthquakes. > and there is talk of paying developers. Yes, we are actually thinking about running a trial to get certain features *which users ask for* or *which the Wikimedia Foundation and its democratically elected Board of Trustees deem useful* implemented. We might use money donated for that purpose to promote the development of open source software. We might give people who cannot directly contribute to software development the *choice* to contribute to the progress of the software by other means - the horror! Of all the online projects I've ever been involved in, Wikimedia is the most paranoid about power and money. I prefer facts to paranoia, and progress to stagnancy. Regards, Erik From delirium at hackish.org Mon Sep 13 00:00:12 2004 From: delirium at hackish.org (Delirium) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 20:00:12 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Rewarding volunteers In-Reply-To: <9GovFw6hpVB@erik_moeller> References: <9GovFw6hpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <4144E30C.2080407@hackish.org> Erik Moeller wrote: >Of all the online projects I've ever been involved in, Wikimedia is the >most paranoid about power and money. I prefer facts to paranoia, and >progress to stagnancy. > > While I won't entirely disagree, I do think the paranoia serves its purpose. In addition to being the most paranoid, Wikimedia is also the most _successful_ of the online projects I've been involved in---I've seen quite a few other projects go pretty bad after money and power hierarchies began to become heavily involved. -Mark From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 04:14:09 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 00:14:09 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Rewarding volunteers In-Reply-To: <4144E30C.2080407@hackish.org> References: <9GovFw6hpVB@erik_moeller> <4144E30C.2080407@hackish.org> Message-ID: <742dfd06040912211468ac7ca5@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 20:00:12 -0400, Delirium wrote: > Erik Moeller wrote: > > >Of all the online projects I've ever been involved in, Wikimedia is the > >most paranoid about power and money. I prefer facts to paranoia, and > >progress to stagnancy. > > > While I won't entirely disagree, I do think the paranoia serves its > purpose. In addition to being the most paranoid, Wikimedia is also the > most _successful_ of the online projects I've been involved in---I've > seen quite a few other projects go pretty bad after money and power > hierarchies began to become heavily involved. Well-put, Mark. "Stagnant" isn't a word that I normally associate with Wikipedia. As for your previous feature suggestion, > "show me all new pages created by people who are not > known either by me or by the people I know," it emphasizes an important point -- the best filtering features aren't based on global properties that have been applied to a particular *user* or *article* (this article has a Quality Rating of 7.4, this user is Highly Trusted)... since this implies a level of certainty about the judgement of some users which other users may doubt. The best features allow the viewing user to choose whose opinions to aggregate. I think a mark of a good filtering system will be that it both allows normal editors to watch edits by trolls, and allows trolls to watch edits by their favorite antagonists... and allows everyone to watch for edits by vandals. -- +sj+ From esp5 at pge.com Mon Sep 13 05:39:32 2004 From: esp5 at pge.com (Edward Peschko) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:39:32 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Rewarding volunteers In-Reply-To: <742dfd06040912211468ac7ca5@mail.gmail.com> References: <9GovFw6hpVB@erik_moeller> <4144E30C.2080407@hackish.org> <742dfd06040912211468ac7ca5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040913053932.GA6617@mdssdev05> > > > > >Of all the online projects I've ever been involved in, Wikimedia is the > > >most paranoid about power and money. I prefer facts to paranoia, and > > >progress to stagnancy. > > > > > While I won't entirely disagree, I do think the paranoia serves its > > purpose. In addition to being the most paranoid, Wikimedia is also the > > most _successful_ of the online projects I've been involved in---I've > > seen quite a few other projects go pretty bad after money and power > > hierarchies began to become heavily involved. > well, I'll throw in my two cents worth (note - coming from a relative newbie to mediawiki) ... I don't think that mediawiki should necessarily have only one approach to moderation or karma. Mediawiki could support multiple versions if these policies were decided via namespace. The moderation/karma policy for the base namespace could be then be picked empirically. Simply try multiple policies in smaller mediawikis, see which one works best, and then turn that policy 'on' for wikipedia itself. If none of them work out, either make a command decision to keep moderation out or keep working on finding one.. Ed ( ps - FWIW - I don't think its *wise* to have a 'one size fits all' policy for mediawiki. For some things - like controversial discussion - a policy like slashdot's works quite well. Ditto for science and/or research... ) From walter at wikipedia.be Mon Sep 13 11:30:47 2004 From: walter at wikipedia.be (Walter Vermeir) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:30:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Foundation-l] create new function; domain name administrator Message-ID: There are a lot of domain names for all the Wikimedia projects. Some are the property of Wikimedia, some of friends of Wikimedia. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Domain_names I have the impression that the dealing of requests regarding domains is done ad hoc by diffrent people. To make sure that the overview is not lost, the usernames and passwords for those domains, it is not forgotten to renew domains, to be a contact person for friends of Wikimedia who are willing to transfer a domain and for requests for buying new domains, it would be good if there where one person responsible. [[w:nl:gebruiker:walter]] From yann at forget-me.net Mon Sep 13 11:43:37 2004 From: yann at forget-me.net (Yann Forget) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:43:37 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Rewarding volunteers In-Reply-To: <9GovFw6hpVB@erik_moeller> References: <9GovFw6hpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <200409131343.38196.yann@forget-me.net> Hi, Le Monday 13 September 2004 01:24, Erik Moeller a ?crit : > John- > > > simple vision: a free encyclopedia where anyone could edit anything. > > Now, sysops, developers etc are getting more power, > > That happened when? > > Sysops have no irreversible powers and are accountable to their own peers > as well as the entire community. On the English Wikipedia, there is a > ridiculously complex procedure for dealing with obvious problem users, > which in most cases never amounts to anything. Trolls and morons violate > policies with impunity on a regular basis. Just check the history of any > controversial article on Wikipedia. > > Developer "powers" were actually recently reduced by creating a new class > of privileged users trusted by the community, stewards. Developers have > no privileges when it comes to policy decisions over normal users. > > Important policy decisions have been increasingly *democratized* in the > last few months, and a board was elected in order to replace the previous > benevolent dictator model. Before that, there even was a time when > Wikipedia had an Editor in Chief who quite aggressively pursued a singular > vision of building the project. > > So, given that the trend is the exact opposite of what you claim it is, I > can either deduce that you know nothing about Wikimedia's history, or that > you are living in a parallel universe superimposed over own where time > runs in the opposite direction. Which is it? > > > anons less trusted, > > Anons were *never* trusted, and for good reason. Trust is based on > experience, and you cannot build experiences with someone you don't know. > Even so, using technological improvements like templates, people send > polite messages to even vandals and spammers before they are blocked: > > Thanks for experimenting with Wikipedia. Your test worked, and has > now been removed. Please use Wikipedia:Sandbox for any other tests > you want to do, since testing material in articles will normally > be removed quickly. Please see the welcome page if you would like > to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia. Thanks. > > We have an almost masochistic relationship to abusers, we tolerate them > until it starts to bleed. For every deletion, there is a debate, and when > the debate becomes long, that usually means the content isn't deleted (no > consensus!). We tolerate the crappiest articles you can imagine about the > most insignificant fictional character in a minor video game franchise. If > you suggested publicly that as a project with 1,000,000 articles we no > longer need to allow people to edit who are not even willing to go through > a 15-second-registration-process, the resulting outcry in the wikisphere > would cause major floods and earthquakes. I agree with Erik here. We have the same problems in the French Wikipedia. We needed four months to throw out a vandal who never really produced a single good and NPOV article. During the summer, we had several bad users who managed to create a suspicious atmosphere by insults, allegations, religious attacks, etc. And for the last year and half, we have had a troll who, althrough he created some good articles, attacked and insulted collectively other contributors, especially sysops when they tried to correct the situation. He was banned already twice temporarly, including once with a direct permission from Jimbo after the community failed to deal with the problem. He also used suck-puppets to generate support for him. He apparently left last month after being blocked again for a day. > > and there is talk of paying developers. > > Yes, we are actually thinking about running a trial to get certain > features *which users ask for* or *which the Wikimedia Foundation and its > democratically elected Board of Trustees deem useful* implemented. We > might use money donated for that purpose to promote the development of > open source software. We might give people who cannot directly contribute > to software development the *choice* to contribute to the progress of the > software by other means - the horror! Yes, let the trial go, then we can see if it's beneficial or not. Technically, I feel the system is still not as reliable as it should, although the situation improved quite a lot. So maybe that an area where we want to put some money. > Of all the online projects I've ever been involved in, Wikimedia is the > most paranoid about power and money. I prefer facts to paranoia, and > progress to stagnancy. > > Regards, > > Erik Regards, Yann -- http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux From anthere9 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 13 20:11:47 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 22:11:47 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: create new function; domain name administrator References: Message-ID: <4145FF03.4020609@yahoo.com> Yo. Fully agree with you on this Walter. Well, I have been seeing you taking care of such matters for perhaps 2 years now, as well as setting portal pages for country domain name. I would be personnally delighted that you be this person responsible of domain names. What do you think ? Would you be interested ? What do other people think ? Anthere Walter Vermeir a ?crit: > There are a lot of domain names for all the Wikimedia projects. Some are the > property of Wikimedia, some of friends of Wikimedia. > > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Domain_names > > I have the impression that the dealing of requests regarding domains is done ad > hoc by diffrent people. > > To make sure that the overview is not lost, the usernames and passwords for > those domains, it is not forgotten to renew domains, to be a contact person for > friends of Wikimedia who are willing to transfer a domain and for requests for > buying new domains, it would be good if there where one person responsible. > > [[w:nl:gebruiker:walter]] From maveric149 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 13 20:17:31 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:17:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] create new function; domain name administrator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040913201731.53704.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Walter Vermeir wrote: > There are a lot of domain names for all the Wikimedia projects. Some are the > property of Wikimedia, some of friends of Wikimedia. > > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Domain_names > > I have the impression that the dealing of requests regarding domains is done > ad hoc by diffrent people. > > To make sure that the overview is not lost, the usernames and passwords for > those domains, it is not forgotten to renew domains, to be a contact person > for friends of Wikimedia who are willing to transfer a domain and for > requests for buying new domains, it would be good if there where one person > responsible. I was doing this for the 8 or so domain names I bought for the foundation but one day my password didn't work anymore. My request to Jimbo asking for the password to my GoDaddy account was never acted upon (there are several domain names controlled by that account that are not yet owned by the foundation - such as Wikiveristy.org and WikiGIS.org). I'm sure this was just an oversight since my password was near impossible to remember. -- mav _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From ropers at ropersonline.com Mon Sep 13 22:11:19 2004 From: ropers at ropersonline.com (Jens Ropers) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 00:11:19 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: create new function; domain name administrator In-Reply-To: <4145FF03.4020609@yahoo.com> References: <4145FF03.4020609@yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 13 Sep 2004, at 22:11, Anthere wrote: > Yo. Fully agree with you on this Walter. > > Well, I have been seeing you taking care of such matters for perhaps 2 > years now, as well as setting portal pages for country domain name. > > I would be personnally delighted that you be this person responsible > of domain names. > > What do you think ? Would you be interested ? What do other people > think ? > > > Anthere Support. ~~~~ From elian at djini.de Mon Sep 13 23:14:29 2004 From: elian at djini.de (Elisabeth Bauer) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 01:14:29 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: create new function; domain name administrator In-Reply-To: References: <4145FF03.4020609@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <414629D5.5080504@djini.de> Jens Ropers wrote: > On 13 Sep 2004, at 22:11, Anthere wrote: > >> Yo. Fully agree with you on this Walter. >> >> Well, I have been seeing you taking care of such matters for perhaps 2 >> years now, as well as setting portal pages for country domain name. >> >> I would be personnally delighted that you be this person responsible >> of domain names. >> >> What do you think ? Would you be interested ? What do other people >> think ? >> >> Anthere > > Support. ~~~~ Support. --elian From beesley at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 23:49:32 2004 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 00:49:32 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: create new function; domain name administrator In-Reply-To: <4145FF03.4020609@yahoo.com> References: <4145FF03.4020609@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8b722b8004091316495cab663e@mail.gmail.com> Having one person to contact for such matters would be really helpful, and if Walter is prepared to do that, I fully support him having that role. Angela. On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 22:11:47 +0200, Anthere wrote: > Yo. Fully agree with you on this Walter. > > Well, I have been seeing you taking care of such matters for perhaps 2 > years now, as well as setting portal pages for country domain name. > > I would be personnally delighted that you be this person responsible of > domain names. > > What do you think ? Would you be interested ? What do other people think ? > > Anthere From wikipedia at earthlink.net Tue Sep 14 04:09:08 2004 From: wikipedia at earthlink.net (Michael Snow) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:09:08 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Delay in press release In-Reply-To: <20040913114346.D4F2B1AC0447@mail.wikimedia.org> References: <20040913114346.D4F2B1AC0447@mail.wikimedia.org> Message-ID: <41466EE4.4010900@earthlink.net> In connection with the upcoming press release celebrating one million Wikipedia articles, we are working to translate not only the press release itself, but also make the Wikimedia Foundation website available in languages other than English. This is needed for us to make the best use of the publicity and also to help our fundraising efforts. However, this project will carry us through the weekend. Therefore, at the request of the Board of Trustees, I am delaying the distribution of the press release until Monday, September 20. That will be the day for the official announcement, although we may actually reach the million-article milestone earlier. This will allow us sufficient time to get things ready in as many languages as possible. Also, it may be helpful to have the press release come at the beginning of the weekly news cycle, as this may allow for better exposure over the course of the week. Please pass this on to your respective projects and anyone who is planning to help with this effort. In the meantime, everyone who will help distribute the press release could make good use of the time to identify the right contact people at the media organizations you plan to send the press release to. --Michael Snow From walter at wikipedia.be Tue Sep 14 10:30:28 2004 From: walter at wikipedia.be (Walter Vermeir) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 10:30:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: create new function; domain name administrator References: <4145FF03.4020609@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Anthere writes: > > Yo. Fully agree with you on this Walter. > > Well, I have been seeing you taking care of such matters for perhaps 2 > years now, as well as setting portal pages for country domain name. > > I would be personnally delighted that you be this person responsible of > domain names. > > What do you think ? Would you be interested ? What do other people think ? > > Anthere I must say that this was not my intension. I highly appreciate that you nominated and support my for this and also the support from the others. But am not sure of it possible for my to do this. This function would be a highly trusted function. The full setup; The domain name administrator would be; - the key holder of Wikimedia; has access to all domain settings. Change DNS, whois info and so. Be the contact person for that domain. Has the authority to renew domain names and buy new if needed and access to Wikimedia funds . Also the person who does the transfer of domains now owned by friends of Wikipedia. Can also have a role regarding squatted domains. Maintaining a public page whit a overview of all domains whit all useful info about those domains. In direct contact and under supervision of a core Wikimedia foundation person. Like a sysop (at least like that function exist on the dutch Wiki), he is a servant of the community and can only act for so far those actions are authorized by a list of rules defined by the Wikimedia foundation and supported by the community. Autonomous decision for so far not granted by earlier established rules are strictly forbidden. + The benefit of this setup is that one person can do his job without the need to ask to other persons to do things, have wait for responds. Can directly give responds to requests. - The down side is that you put a lot of trust and potential power whit one person. A light version; The "domain name administrator" is only a intermediary. Is the contact person for domain name related requests for all projects. Maintains a list of all domains, there expire data, there status and use, sounds alarm when the are close to there expire data, keeps other people annoying until whatever needs to be done is done. Has a direct contact whit the people of the Wikimedia who can actually do something. + No security risk because the "domain name administrator" has no powers except the power of e-mail. - The usefulness is doubtful. If the function only is to act like a gateway to whoever does it really you can ask why bother. ********************************* I am willing to do it. But i am not very much in favor of the light version because you can not really do anything. Greetings, Walter Vermeir From ropers at ropersonline.com Tue Sep 14 11:52:42 2004 From: ropers at ropersonline.com (Jens Ropers) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:52:42 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Rewarding volunteers In-Reply-To: <9GovFw6hpVB@erik_moeller> References: <9GovFw6hpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <95D0BA26-0644-11D9-9BF4-0003931DCE20@ropersonline.com> John Collison wrote this email: http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2004-September/ 000959.html Erik Moeller replied with this email: http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2004-September/ 000962.html (also see below) Erik, John was making some valid observations. Some sysops and developers ARE getting more power, some Wikipedians DID repeatedly float the (IMHO inane) idea of blocking anon editing and there IS a trial for paying developers. It's true that there are offsetting factors: - Most if not all of the powers that sysops and developers are getting were previously held by Jimmy Wales et al. (who however--as far as I'm aware--exhibited considerable restraint in using them). - The idea of blocking barring anons from editing was not accepted by the wider Wikipedia community and indeed never got very far. - At this stage of our project, where there is a large user base and thus frequent demands to our developers, paying them might simply reflect the economics of demand and supply: Developers can't put in all that time the community cries out for without some remuneration. Thinking about paying developers could be seen as more on par to investing in hardware -- it's paying for a more or less essential component towards the continued success of the Wikipedia. So there are pros and cons. The situation and recent developments can be interpreted differently. John voiced his concerns based on his reading of the situation and his POV. You may see an emphasis on other things and have a different POV. However, for you to categorically state that "the trend is the exact opposite of what you claim it is" and then move on to irony and ridicule (if not sarcasm) -- I feel that that was not very kind to say the least. As John wrote, this was his first post to this mailing list. If this is how you welcome people and invite them to participate in our discussion -- well... I trust you're getting my drift. I may want to add: I strongly seconded John's email -- I feel there IS a danger and temptation for us "two-legged pigs" to become like the human peasants and for some of us to become "more equal than others". (cf. Animal Farm) That that hasn't happened yet is a testament to those intrepid Wikipedians who defended our freedoms by eloquently and successfully making the case to the community that they should be preserved, even as other fruits looked tempting and were hanging low. But just because farsighted people voiced warnings in the past and successfully got the community to choose a better course (where some things even improved) doesn't mean that that was natural or inevitable. I also feel it would be unfair to construe John's email as belittling these past efforts (which maybe could be a reason for your indignation?) -- his words IMHO don't detract from the good things that have happened in the past but are a warning about our present course. Things can go wrong and we as are not infallible, even as a community. That's why we need words of warning like John's and he should be ''commended'', not rebuked for saying them. -- Jens [[User:Ropers|Ropers]] www.ropersonline.com From kissall at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 15:49:42 2004 From: kissall at gmail.com (Kiss All) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 10:49:42 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] I am really tired of registering an account for each MetaWiki site I found Message-ID: <384f6ad404091408491a7f8367@mail.gmail.com> I found it is very tedious or even annoying for users and developers to register an account for each MetaWiki site they encountered. Take myself for example: 1. First, I got an account from wikipedia, that was my first visit to wiki in fact. 2.Then, I found metawiki, was asked to register. Ok, I was still happy to do it to be a more involved volunteer. 3.After that, I found the chinese version of eikipeida. I always wanted to contribute to my own people. I registered an account there without reluctance. 4. Today, I want to add my new feature request and bug report. You know what? A MediaZilla poped out requesting me to register again! 5. I suspect if I happen to access wikidictionary, wikibook, and so on, I have to register again and again... I don't know how many people have the same problem as me. But wouldn't it be better to have a single account to access all sites within MetaWiki? I know there is a passport project from Microsoft dealing with the similar problem. It would be much easier for us to do the same thing within MetaWiki because we don't need to worry about the identify,money issue in the real world. -- Be good.... From delirium at hackish.org Tue Sep 14 17:58:29 2004 From: delirium at hackish.org (Delirium) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:58:29 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] questions about complying with the GFDL Message-ID: <41473145.30802@hackish.org> I had a question about complying with the GFDL in medium-print-run, subset-of-Wikipedia distribution efforts. Say someone wanted to distribute a few Wikipedia articles in connection with some event---the one that came to mind would be distributing some information about Greek culture together with a local Greek festival, but there are plenty of other possibilities. Now, the GFDL requires that if you distribute more than 100 copies of a document, you must also distribute the source (i.e. wikitext) version of the document, and the text of the GFDL itself. I don't see a good way to do this on a smallish pamphlet (say, 5 pages): the text of the GFDL itself would nearly double the size of the pamphlet. The wikitext version is permitted to be distributed electronically (i.e. "see http://blah/ for a source version of this document"), but even that is somewhat onerous, as a small organization may not have the resources or interest in maintaining a mirror of the documents it distributes for the required year. Notably, pointing to wikipedia.org is not sufficient---the GFDL requires that the person doing the distribution maintain an exact source mirror of the document exactly as distributed, "free of added material", and including any changes, so "derived from the Wikipedia article [here]" would not be enough. In googling to see how people handled this, I came across Wikitravel, which has a lengthy rant on somewhat similar issues, and they concluded that the GFDL is simply impractical for pamphlet-type distribution [http://www.wikitravel.org/en/article/Wikitravel:Why_Wikitravel_isn't_GFDL]. Hopefully there are more creative solutions though, as it would be a shame to be unable to use Wikipedia material in pamphlets for logistical reasons. So really to summarize, my questions are: --- Do I really have to print the full text of the GFDL? It's not a very short document relative to a small pamphlet. --- Do I really have to make available the exact source of my pamphlet? Thanks for any suggestions, Mark From chris_mahan at yahoo.com Wed Sep 15 00:34:57 2004 From: chris_mahan at yahoo.com (Christopher Mahan) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 17:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: domain name administrator--> Trust level In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040915003457.50518.qmail@web14022.mail.yahoo.com> --- Walter Vermeir wrote: > I am willing to do it. But i am not very much in favor of the light > version > because you can not really do anything. I agree with Walter. The person who takes care of this needs to have complete power to make any technical decisions immediately. I personally manage 15+ domains and it's a PITA when something needs to be done ASAP and I have to ask for permission. As far as who to trust, I suggest Jimbo put a name or two in a hat and have the board pull one of those out. I also suggest that this should be a paid function (as, say, $100/month) because it is such a nightmare. ===== Chris Mahan 818.943.1850 cell chris_mahan at yahoo.com chris.mahan at gmail.com http://www.christophermahan.com/ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From erik_moeller at gmx.de Tue Sep 14 17:58:00 2004 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: 14 Sep 2004 19:58:00 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Rewarding volunteers In-Reply-To: <95D0BA26-0644-11D9-9BF4-0003931DCE20@ropersonline.com> Message-ID: <9GswPhZCpVB@erik_moeller> Jens- > Some sysops and developers ARE getting more power Aside from the fact that new people always advance within the existing hierarchies - a good thing, I'm sure you will agree -, I see no evidence that privileges have actually been extended in any significant manner. Not on the projects I've worked on. What are you talking about? > some Wikipedians DID > repeatedly float the (IMHO inane) idea of blocking anon editing If people provide logical arguments, then we should discuss them and try to refine our reasoning and our conclusions. I for one remain unconvinced that the larger Wikimedia projects benefit from anonymous editing, and there's little empirical evidence either way. Putting the account creation form on the edit screen would probably filter out many random vandals and spammers while still assuring near-instant participation. "IMHO inane" is quite dismissive - especially given the fact that people have actually provided very coherent arguments here. > However, for you to categorically state that "the trend is the exact > opposite of what you claim it is" I only "categorically state" things when they are obvious, or when I've provided a line of reasoning to do so, as I have here. You have provided no evidence for your above assertion and nor has the original poster. I refuse to pretend that I see insight where I see fear, but I acknowledge that the sarcasm was slightly over the top and apologize for any hurt feelings. Please let's have discussions based on sound arguments rather than on emotional themes from George Orwell books. That is more productive and more respectful towards everyone involved in this project. Sysops and developers fulfill many thankless duties. There's no need to constantly praise them, and they are obviously not beyond reproach. But criticism should be constructive ("actionable") and have a clear, empirically demonstrated basis in reality. Erik From chris_mahan at yahoo.com Wed Sep 15 01:02:50 2004 From: chris_mahan at yahoo.com (Christopher Mahan) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 18:02:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Rewarding volunteers In-Reply-To: <9GswPhZCpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <20040915010250.8649.qmail@web14024.mail.yahoo.com> --- Erik Moeller wrote: > Jens- > > some Wikipedians DID > > repeatedly float the (IMHO inane) idea of blocking anon editing > > If people provide logical arguments, then we should discuss them > and try > to refine our reasoning and our conclusions. I for one remain > unconvinced > that the larger Wikimedia projects benefit from anonymous editing, > and > there's little empirical evidence either way. Putting the account > creation > form on the edit screen would probably filter out many random > vandals and > spammers while still assuring near-instant participation. > > "IMHO inane" is quite dismissive - especially given the fact that > people > have actually provided very coherent arguments here. He did say that this was his opinion. I personally would not have participated in W if anons could not edit. Not because I want to edit as an anon, which I very seldom do, but because allowing anons to edit says something about our embracing the wiki philosophy that resonates with me, and I am sure, a great many contributors. I doubt seriously that any study or set of studies could demonstrate that. > I refuse to pretend that I see insight where I see fear, but I > acknowledge > that the sarcasm was slightly over the top and apologize for any > hurt > feelings. Please let's have discussions based on sound arguments > rather > than on emotional themes from George Orwell books. That is more > productive > and more respectful towards everyone involved in this project. > > Sysops and developers fulfill many thankless duties. There's no > need to > constantly praise them, and they are obviously not beyond reproach. > But > criticism should be constructive ("actionable") and have a clear, > empirically demonstrated basis in reality. Well put. ===== Chris Mahan 818.943.1850 cell chris_mahan at yahoo.com chris.mahan at gmail.com http://www.christophermahan.com/ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From maveric149 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 15 01:31:32 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 18:31:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: domain name administrator--> Trust level In-Reply-To: <20040915003457.50518.qmail@web14022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040915013132.57420.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Christopher Mahan wrote: > I agree with Walter. The person who takes care of this needs to have > complete power to make any technical decisions immediately. I > personally manage 15+ domains and it's a PITA when something needs to > be done ASAP and I have to ask for permission. We could have a petty cash PayPal account of say $3000 that such an admin and a few other highly trusted people (esp a developer) could have access to when needed (a domain is about to expire or a server needs to be replaced fast). If I'm still around, I would help provide oversight for that. > As far as who to trust, I suggest Jimbo put a name or two in a hat > and have the board pull one of those out. I think only Walter mentioned an interest in this so I don't see a need for an extra step. > I also suggest that this > should be a paid function (as, say, $100/month) because it is such a > nightmare. Managing the 8 or so Wikimedia domains wasn't a pain for me. The only issue was keeping up with yearly expirations, but Jimbo has since paid those for long time periods (that was my impression at least since I no longer have access to my GoDaddy account that holds those domains). So I don't think this is the type of thing that we would have to pay a person for. All IMO. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From chris_mahan at yahoo.com Wed Sep 15 01:42:57 2004 From: chris_mahan at yahoo.com (Christopher Mahan) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 18:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: domain name administrator--> Trust level In-Reply-To: <20040915013132.57420.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040915014257.27965.qmail@web14025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Daniel Mayer wrote: > We could have a petty cash PayPal account of say $3000 that such an > admin and a > few other highly trusted people (esp a developer) could have access > to when > needed (a domain is about to expire or a server needs to be > replaced fast). If > I'm still around, I would help provide oversight for that. That would be good. > I think only Walter mentioned an interest in this so I don't see a > need for an > extra step. Except he also said he wasn't too hat on the idea. He just threw it out there as something that would be nice without saying he would want to do it. > Managing the 8 or so Wikimedia domains wasn't a pain for me. The > only issue was > keeping up with yearly expirations, but Jimbo has since paid those > for long > time periods (that was my impression at least since I no longer > have access to > my GoDaddy account that holds those domains). Granted, I might have exagerated. > So I don't think this > is the type > of thing that we would have to pay a person for. All IMO. Ok too. By the way, have moved to godaddy exclusively, and things have become much easier. On a personal note, I would particularly miss your contribution to W if you decided to seek other forms of online enjoyments. I think though that you have to do what's best for yourself. ===== Chris Mahan 818.943.1850 cell chris_mahan at yahoo.com chris.mahan at gmail.com http://www.christophermahan.com/ _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From anthere9 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 15 01:49:08 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 03:49:08 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: domain name administrator--> Trust level References: <20040915003457.50518.qmail@web14022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41479F94.4020204@yahoo.com> Christopher Mahan a ?crit: > --- Walter Vermeir wrote: > > >>I am willing to do it. But i am not very much in favor of the light >>version >>because you can not really do anything. > > > > I agree with Walter. The person who takes care of this needs to have > complete power to make any technical decisions immediately. I > personally manage 15+ domains and it's a PITA when something needs to > be done ASAP and I have to ask for permission. Technical and financial decisions are two different things imho. Technical responsability Walter is mentionning is currently typically one some developers are trusted to do I think. However, the financial responsability mentionned is right now only limited to Jimbo and perhaps to our treasurer. > As far as who to trust, I suggest Jimbo put a name or two in a hat > and have the board pull one of those out. I also suggest that this > should be a paid function (as, say, $100/month) because it is such a nightmare. Hmmmm. I disagree. It is not Jimbo's job to name people. And I am not sure he would like to do that. The proposal should come from the person himself. Not from Jimbo, nor from the board. But from people. A few questions are * Do we have a problem with our domain names handling ? * Is there a need to have one person in charge of this ? * What could the job recover ? Walter gave us his opinion on these three questions. Are there other opinions ? If the first ones are fixed, next questions become * What will the job recover ? * Who else is interested in doing this ? From chris_mahan at yahoo.com Wed Sep 15 02:02:23 2004 From: chris_mahan at yahoo.com (Christopher Mahan) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 19:02:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: domain name administrator--> Trust level In-Reply-To: <41479F94.4020204@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040915020223.51638.qmail@web14026.mail.yahoo.com> --- Anthere wrote: > Christopher Mahan a ?crit: > > --- Walter Vermeir wrote: > > > > > >>I am willing to do it. But i am not very much in favor of the > light > >>version > >>because you can not really do anything. > > > > > > > > I agree with Walter. The person who takes care of this needs to > have > > complete power to make any technical decisions immediately. I > > personally manage 15+ domains and it's a PITA when something > needs to > > be done ASAP and I have to ask for permission. > > Technical and financial decisions are two different things imho. > Technical responsability Walter is mentionning is currently > typically > one some developers are trusted to do I think. > However, the financial responsability mentionned is right now only > limited to Jimbo and perhaps to our treasurer. > > > > As far as who to trust, I suggest Jimbo put a name or two in a > hat > > and have the board pull one of those out. I also suggest that > this > > should be a paid function (as, say, $100/month) because it is > such a nightmare. > > Hmmmm. > I disagree. > It is not Jimbo's job to name people. And I am not sure he would > like to > do that. The proposal should come from the person himself. Not from > > Jimbo, nor from the board. But from people. > > A few questions are > > * Do we have a problem with our domain names handling ? > > * Is there a need to have one person in charge of this ? > > * What could the job recover ? > > Walter gave us his opinion on these three questions. Are there > other > opinions ? > > If the first ones are fixed, next questions become > > * What will the job recover ? > > * Who else is interested in doing this ? I peronally think that the job is highly critical, and should not be left to a volunteer. You should either hire someone who does this already for a living, as a professional, or jimbo should handpick someone he trusts explicitely. I think Jimbo does the DNS stuff now, and probably will in the future. So the point is probably moot. ===== Chris Mahan 818.943.1850 cell chris_mahan at yahoo.com chris.mahan at gmail.com http://www.christophermahan.com/ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 02:32:16 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 22:32:16 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: create new function; domain name administrator In-Reply-To: <4145FF03.4020609@yahoo.com> References: <4145FF03.4020609@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <742dfd0604091419321a5c5f29@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 22:11:47 +0200, Anthere wrote: > Yo. Fully agree with you on this Walter. > > Well, I have been seeing you taking care of such matters for perhaps 2 > years now, as well as setting portal pages for country domain name. > > I would be personnally delighted that you be this person responsible of > domain names. > < What do other people think ? Support. This is not at all an easy job; work will need to be done to scale the paperwork and synchronize regular deadlines. I am glad that Walter is even considering doing this. -- +sj+ From anthere9 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 15 02:36:10 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 04:36:10 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: --> Trust level References: <41479F94.4020204@yahoo.com> <20040915020223.51638.qmail@web14026.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4147AA9A.6000203@yahoo.com> Christopher Mahan a ?crit: > I peronally think that the job is highly critical, and should not be > left to a volunteer. You should either hire someone who does this > already for a living, as a professional, or jimbo should handpick > someone he trusts explicitely. I think Jimbo does the DNS stuff now, > and probably will in the future. > So the point is probably moot. Okay. Well, let's wait for Jimbo's opinion on the matter then. I do not have any strong opinion on the matter either way :-) From wikipedia at earthlink.net Wed Sep 15 03:33:18 2004 From: wikipedia at earthlink.net (Michael Snow) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:33:18 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: questions about complying with the GFDL In-Reply-To: <20040914180123.0036B1AC0312@mail.wikimedia.org> References: <20040914180123.0036B1AC0312@mail.wikimedia.org> Message-ID: <4147B7FE.7070405@earthlink.net> Delirium wrote: > Now, the GFDL requires that if you distribute more than 100 copies of > a document, you must also distribute the source (i.e. wikitext) > version of the document, and the text of the GFDL itself. I don't see > a good way to do this on a smallish pamphlet (say, 5 pages): the text > of the GFDL itself would nearly double the size of the pamphlet. The > wikitext version is permitted to be distributed electronically (i.e. > "see http://blah/ for a source version of this document"), but even > that is somewhat onerous, as a small organization may not have the > resources or interest in maintaining a mirror of the documents it > distributes for the required year. Notably, pointing to wikipedia.org > is not sufficient---the GFDL requires that the person doing the > distribution maintain an exact source mirror of the document exactly > as distributed, "free of added material", and including any changes, > so "derived from the Wikipedia article [here]" would not be enough. It seems to me that it might be possible to comply with this particular requirement by copying from, and using the link to, a previous version of the page. For example, you might want to include the article [[Greece]] on your most recent revision: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Greece&oldid=5864661 By including the full URL of a specific revision, rather than that of the current article, you assure that the linked page will be "free of added material". In connection with the general discussion about flagging revisions for use in a 1.0 print publication, this means that providing a reliable computer-network location is not that difficult. If you rely on Wikipedia to keep its history available for at least the required year, then it may be possible to comply with the GFDL on a print run without maintaining your own mirror site. --Michael Snow From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 05:57:56 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 01:57:56 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: domain name administrator--> Trust level In-Reply-To: <20040915020223.51638.qmail@web14026.mail.yahoo.com> References: <41479F94.4020204@yahoo.com> <20040915020223.51638.qmail@web14026.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <742dfd0604091422574319e994@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 14 Sep 19:02 -0700 (PDT), wrote: > --- Anthere wrote: > > > > Technical and financial decisions are two different things imho. > > Technical responsability Walter is mentionning is currently typically > > one some developers are trusted to do I think. > > However, the financial responsability mentionned is right now only > > limited to Jimbo and perhaps to our treasurer. The bulk of financial decisions (regular renewals) could be planned far in advance and cleared, en masse, with a financial officer. A small emergency fund as mav mentioned should suffice for unexpected needs. > > A few questions are > > * Do we have a problem with our domain names handling ? yes. > > * Is there a need to have one person in charge of this ? no; let every eager person you can find help; but one point-person at any given moment. See my stock reply below. :-) Chris Mahan: > I peronally think that the job is highly critical, and should not be > left to a volunteer. You should either hire someone who does this > already for a living, as a professional, or jimbo should handpick Motivated volunteers can do an excellent job with highly critical tasks. It is nevertheless important to avoid single points of failure. While I support Walter wholeheartedly as someone to manage domain issues, the primary work of such a manager would be to make sure the relevant information was organized and available to others, so that they could take up slack as needed. A small group of interested people, one of whom at any given time is the point person for any sudden decisions, is definitely needed. A one-person group is better than none; larger would be better still. -- +sj+ From anthere9 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 15 06:06:54 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:06:54 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: domain name administrator--> Trust level References: <41479F94.4020204@yahoo.com> <20040915020223.51638.qmail@web14026.mail.yahoo.com> <742dfd0604091422574319e994@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4147DBFE.3080107@yahoo.com> Sj a ?crit: > On Tue, 14 Sep 19:02 -0700 (PDT), wrote: > >>--- Anthere wrote: >> >>>Technical and financial decisions are two different things imho. >>>Technical responsability Walter is mentionning is currently typically >>>one some developers are trusted to do I think. >>>However, the financial responsability mentionned is right now only >>>limited to Jimbo and perhaps to our treasurer. >> > > The bulk of financial decisions (regular renewals) could be planned > far in advance > and cleared, en masse, with a financial officer. A small emergency fund as mav > mentioned should suffice for unexpected needs. > > >>>A few questions are >>>* Do we have a problem with our domain names handling ? >> > yes. > > >>>* Is there a need to have one person in charge of this ? >> > no; let every eager person you can find help; but one point-person at > any given moment. See my stock reply below. :-) > > > Chris Mahan: > >>I peronally think that the job is highly critical, and should not be >>left to a volunteer. You should either hire someone who does this >>already for a living, as a professional, or jimbo should handpick > > > Motivated volunteers can do an excellent job with highly critical tasks. > It is nevertheless important to avoid single points of failure. While I > support Walter wholeheartedly as someone to manage domain issues, > the primary work of such a manager would be to make sure the relevant > information was organized and available to others, so that they could take > up slack as needed. > > A small group of interested people, one of whom at any given time is > the point person for any sudden decisions, is definitely needed. A > one-person group is better than none; larger would be better still. Nod, I agree with all this and Mav proposal for an amount to be set aside in advance strike me as being the solution. Other opinions ? ant From magnus.manske at web.de Wed Sep 15 09:22:08 2004 From: magnus.manske at web.de (Magnus Manske) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 11:22:08 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] questions about complying with the GFDL In-Reply-To: <41473145.30802@hackish.org> References: <41473145.30802@hackish.org> Message-ID: <414809C0.2000801@web.de> Delirium wrote: > > So really to summarize, my questions are: > --- Do I really have to print the full text of the GFDL? It's not a > very short document relative to a small pamphlet. > --- Do I really have to make available the exact source of my pamphlet? > Pragmatic solution would be: * Don't print the source, and print olny a link to the GFDL * Wait for wikimedia foundation to sue you, which it won't, because you're obviuosly acting well within "the spirit" I know that the copyright for each edit lies with the author of that edit, so theoretically an individual author *could* complain, but I don't think that's likely, etiher. Magnus From ropers at ropersonline.com Wed Sep 15 11:57:03 2004 From: ropers at ropersonline.com (Jens Ropers) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 13:57:03 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: domain name administrator--> Trust level In-Reply-To: <20040915014257.27965.qmail@web14025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040915014257.27965.qmail@web14025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5BEE0B3E-070E-11D9-9BF4-0003931DCE20@ropersonline.com> On 15 Sep 2004, at 03:42, Christopher Mahan wrote: > Ok too. By the way, have moved to godaddy exclusively, and things > have become much easier. I hate GoDaddy, because of their advertising and cheapo-upselly-flashy-glitzyness. Not that it's of any relevance, I just had to vent. -J From ropers at ropersonline.com Wed Sep 15 12:44:32 2004 From: ropers at ropersonline.com (Jens Ropers) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 14:44:32 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Rewarding volunteers In-Reply-To: <9GswPhZCpVB@erik_moeller> References: <9GswPhZCpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: On 14 Sep 2004, at 19:58, Erik Moeller wrote: > Jens- >> Some sysops and developers ARE getting more power > > Aside from the fact that new people always advance within the existing > hierarchies - a good thing, I'm sure you will agree -, I see no > evidence > that privileges have actually been extended in any significant manner. > Not > on the projects I've worked on. What are you talking about? You've just answered that question yourself. (Hint: some, POV reference in my prev email.) >> However, for you to categorically state that "the trend is the exact >> opposite of what you claim it is" > > I only "categorically state" things when they are obvious, or when I've > provided a line of reasoning to do so, as I have here. You have > provided > no evidence for your above assertion and nor has the original poster. You have remarkable faith in your own POV and are remarkably dismissive of other's. > But > criticism should be constructive ("actionable") and have a clear, > empirically demonstrated basis in reality. This -- the implicit accusation that John's and my POV are "not in Kansas anymore" -- is what I regard as detrimental to otherwise possible attempts at a constructive discussion. > Erik > -- Jens [[User:Ropers|Ropers]] www.ropersonline.com From jwales at wikia.com Wed Sep 15 15:00:01 2004 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:00:01 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: --> Trust level In-Reply-To: <4147AA9A.6000203@yahoo.com> References: <41479F94.4020204@yahoo.com> <20040915020223.51638.qmail@web14026.mail.yahoo.com> <4147AA9A.6000203@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040915150001.GE3689@wikia.com> Anthere wrote: > Christopher Mahan a ?crit: > >I peronally think that the job is highly critical, and should not be > >left to a volunteer. You should either hire someone who does this > >already for a living, as a professional, or jimbo should handpick > >someone he trusts explicitely. I think Jimbo does the DNS stuff now, > >and probably will in the future. > >So the point is probably moot. > > Okay. > Well, let's wait for Jimbo's opinion on the matter then. > I do not have any strong opinion on the matter either way :-) Right now, Jason handles it, but not in any organized fashion. I can easily assign him a project to make a report on all the domains, expiry dates, current ownership, etc. so that at least as a first pass we have a firm understanding of the current situation. --Jimbo From jwales at wikia.com Wed Sep 15 15:07:05 2004 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:07:05 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: questions about complying with the GFDL In-Reply-To: <4147B7FE.7070405@earthlink.net> References: <20040914180123.0036B1AC0312@mail.wikimedia.org> <4147B7FE.7070405@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040915150705.GF3689@wikia.com> Delirium wrote: >Now, the GFDL requires that if you distribute more than 100 copies of >a document, you must also distribute the source (i.e. wikitext) >version of the document, This is not accurate. What has to be distributed is a "Transparent" copy, not "the source". "Examples of suitable formats for Transparent copies include plain ASCII without markup, Texinfo input format, LaTeX input format, SGML or XML using a publicly available DTD, and standard-conforming simple HTML, PostScript or PDF designed for human modification. Examples of transparent image formats include PNG, XCF and JPG. Opaque formats include proprietary formats that can be read and edited only by proprietary word processors, SGML or XML for which the DTD and/or processing tools are not generally available, and the machine-generated HTML, PostScript or PDF produced by some word processors for output purposes only." Even so, I'm only making a minor point here -- Delerium's more general point is valid, and is precisely the sort of issue that is being worked on (I am told) with respect to FDL 2.0. --Jimbo From rich at richpoints.com Wed Sep 15 20:16:55 2004 From: rich at richpoints.com (Rich Points) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 14:16:55 -0600 Subject: [Foundation-l] I can't seem to unsubscribe from this list Message-ID: <00eb01c49b60$f31a4f90$0802a8c0@LAPCHICKEN> Can someone please help? Thanks -- Rich Points Rich at RichPoints.com http://RichPoints.com From ribamar.sousa at ic.unicamp.br Wed Sep 15 23:01:02 2004 From: ribamar.sousa at ic.unicamp.br (Ribamar Santarosa de Sousa) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 20:01:02 -0300 Subject: [Foundation-l] I can't seem to unsubscribe from this list In-Reply-To: <00eb01c49b60$f31a4f90$0802a8c0@LAPCHICKEN> References: <00eb01c49b60$f31a4f90$0802a8c0@LAPCHICKEN> Message-ID: <20040915230102.GB3865@ic.unicamp.br> On Wed, Sep 15, 2004 at 02:16:55PM -0600, Rich Points wrote: > Can someone please help? > Thanks > -- > Rich Points > Rich at RichPoints.com > http://RichPoints.com > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l Dunno if you could do that yet, but if not: Take Welcome message sent to you when you have subscribed, find for you pass and go to: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/options/foundation-l/ If you no longer have your Welcome message, you can request your passwd in above site quickly. List admin can add above site to footer... - Riba From anthere9 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 16 05:36:33 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 07:36:33 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: I can't seem to unsubscribe from this list References: <00eb01c49b60$f31a4f90$0802a8c0@LAPCHICKEN> <20040915230102.GB3865@ic.unicamp.br> Message-ID: <41492661.7080906@yahoo.com> Ribamar Santarosa de Sousa a ?crit: > On Wed, Sep 15, 2004 at 02:16:55PM -0600, Rich Points wrote: > >>Can someone please help? >>Thanks >>-- >>Rich Points >>Rich at RichPoints.com >>http://RichPoints.com >>_______________________________________________ >>foundation-l mailing list >>foundation-l at wikimedia.org >>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > > > Dunno if you could do that yet, but if not: > > Take Welcome message sent to you when you have subscribed, find for you > pass and go to: > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/options/foundation-l/ > > If you no longer have your Welcome message, you can request your passwd > in above site quickly. > > List admin can add above site to footer... > > - Riba Normally, Rich should be unsubscribed. ant From walter at wikipedia.be Thu Sep 16 09:28:08 2004 From: walter at wikipedia.be (Walter Vermeir) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 09:28:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: create new function; domain name administrator References: <4145FF03.4020609@yahoo.com> <742dfd0604091419321a5c5f29@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Sj <2.718281828 at ...> writes: > Support. > > This is not at all an easy job; work will need to be done to scale the > paperwork and synchronize regular deadlines. I am glad that Walter is > even considering doing this. I have been owner of several domains. I did not have the impression it is very complicated or difficult. The most important thing is to not forget witch registrator you have used, the password of it. And to renew it on time. The domains wikipedia.ca and wikipedia.us are squatted long after the where listed on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Domain_names for a long time. This is because of the absence of a domain name administrator. I know Branko Collin is now attempting to transfer wikipedia.nl to Wikimedia. I have also a domain to transfer. And I hope that it is not forgotten to renew wikipedia.be, a domain I earlier have hand over to Wikimedia. I am pesimistic about the current way of dealing whit this. There is need of more internal organisation about who does what and clear contact persons. Most Wiki's or even the Wikimedia Foundation does not have a clear way of contact like for example the Dutch and German wiki. I will be offline for 2 weeks. It is time for my annual internet- disintoxication. Greetings, Walter Vermeir From anthere9 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 16 09:51:10 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 02:51:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Meta goings on Message-ID: <20040916095110.26803.qmail@web41812.mail.yahoo.com> I have been trying to think about the past days issues. Fuzheado and others mentionned the goings-on as the place they go to when they want to be kept updated. I was glad to hear that, because I had the feeling this page was not very much used. If it is, then it is worth :-) I'll revive a discussion we had with Erik and Mav on this goings-on issue, related to the "news" issue. The "news" is the place where we keep track of relevant events in a chronological manner. Typically, we find news such as - xx.wikipedia reached 10000 articles - zz.wiktionary switched to utf today - there was a meeting in city tt today - we received the prize pp - download time planned today Currently, these news are very short (not detailed) with links. The audience is "contributors" and "people outside the project". The display is actually a sort of a weblog. Basically, it is not translated, but it is usually written in simple english. The "goings-on" is the place where we mention events or discussions. This is a lot "internal kitchen" which imho is none of the business of external readers. The information is first sorted by "type", then a little bit by "date". We had hoped that the information would be translated on local goings-on, but it is just not done, even on big wikipedias such as the english one. There is no easy navigation between languages. The information is not as short as on the "news". Often, a short summary explains the issue itself. It is not always written in simple english. ----------------------- My questions Do you think the "news" and the "goings-on" should merged ? Or that one should be made the subset of the other ? How do we manage the overlap of information ? It seems to me that the current goings-on subsections are a bit confusing. I often hesitate between 2 sections when I want to add an information. Should we keep the "by topic" classification ? Or switch to another type of classification ? If we do keep "by topic", should we keep the current classification or is there a better proposal ? Should we try to identify timeline better ? Either by organising goings-on according to "date of addition" or introducing more date references in the "by topic" sections ? How could we advertise goings-on better so that people not only think of reading it, but also to update it ? I think it is very important that we do not have to write dozen of times the same information in several places. This is a total loss of time and energy. Translation is basically non existent. We have three options 1) We do not even try to translate and we try to keep to simple english -> It think this is not a good move 2) We have an english version on meta, and translations on local project -> We tried that for 6 months, obviously it does not work 3) We have all translations on meta -> Translation requests page on meta seems to be working quite well now. What would you think of trying goings-on translation and giving up local translation entirely ? If translations are done on meta, how could we better advertise meta goings-on on each local project ? How to tell those new ones that there is another life beside local project and that they are welcome to join ? Links in welcome messages ? Improvement in the recent changes editorial sections ? Promoting adding links in local pumps ? In news ? Adding a link in the menu bar ? All this would be much easier if meta was more multilingual, with language preference for menu, and easier navigation between languages (rather than awkard templates). There were discussions about doing this in the software ? Is there any news of this ? Is someone interested in doing it ? If so, when can we have hope ? Errrr... what would motivate the developper to do so ? Who can help improving all this ? May I have chocolate ice-cream on top ? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! From beesley at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 16:48:11 2004 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:48:11 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikispecies FAQ Message-ID: <8b722b800409160948a83f941@mail.gmail.com> I have attempted to consolidate and expand upon the answers to many of the concerns raised about Wikispecies on the Wikipedia-l mailing list over the last few days. Please see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikispecies_FAQ . The page includes both questions specific to Wikispecies, as well as the wider issues concerning the decision making processes of the Wikimedia Board, including the following questions: 1 What is Wikispecies? 2 Is Wikispecies a fork of Wikipedia? 3 Why is Wikispecies not part of Wikipedia? 4 Why is Wikispecies not part of the Wikimedia Commons? 5 What happens if people start writing encyclopedia articles on Wikispecies? 6 What if people want Wikiwar, Wikichemistry etc 7 Was there consensus on starting this project? 8 Was Wikispecies a board decision? 9 Where was this announced? 10 Why was the full log of the meeting not published? 11 What is the next step for Wikispecies? Angela. From beesley at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 18:59:23 2004 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:59:23 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Fundraising drive meeting Message-ID: <8b722b8004091611595f9992d2@mail.gmail.com> To coincide with the international press release being made on Monday, Wikimedia will be holding a cross-project fundraising drive. The details of this are not yet decided. If you would like to contribute to the decision, there will be a meeting on the #wikimedia IRC channel (see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_channels ). The meeting will begin at 20:00 (UTC) (see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Timezone_conversion ) on Friday 17 September, 2004. If you have any points you would like to make before the meeting, or if you can not come to the meeting, please write them on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_meeting%2C_September_2004 . The chat will be logged to Meta for those unable to be there. Angela. From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 21:33:29 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:33:29 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Fundraising drive meeting, blurbed In-Reply-To: <8b722b8004091611595f9992d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b8004091611595f9992d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <742dfd0604091614332e52bd0d@mail.gmail.com> Blurb-style, for alerts: * Fri, Sept 17, 20:00 UTC -- WMF fundraiser discussion on #wikimedia [IRC] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_meeting%2C_September_2004 Announcement-style, for translation: Wikimedia is having a fundraiser next week, following our press release. [1], [2] We are discussing this on the #wikimedia IRC channel on Friday, September 17, at 20:00 UTC. [3] Comments, summaries, and chat logs can be found on meta. [4] [1] "fundraiser" : A public request for donations over a period of time. [2] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_press_releases/One_million_Wikipedia_articles [3] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_channels [4] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_meeting%2C_September_2004 ---- Thanks for the announcement, Angela. +sj+ From anthere9 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 17 01:50:10 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 03:50:10 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Projects references Message-ID: <414A42D2.6040402@yahoo.com> Hi all, There are yet some information to fill on that page : http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_projects It would be nice if more holes were filled up. Thanks :-) ant From maveric149 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 17 10:18:59 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 03:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] New Fundraising page under development In-Reply-To: <20040916095110.26803.qmail@web41812.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040917101859.11332.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> See: http://wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising and http://wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising/USD Major new features *Mostly in wiki text now (use of templates) *Ability to create new pages at will (notice the translated pages) *HTML can be used if encapsulated in (thanks Brion!) *Separate pages for one time, monthly, and yearly donations (only USD implemented so far) The amounts and tier scheme should not be considered official payment options ; they are just my working suggestion. The goal is to have everything ready by the time the fund drive starts on Monday. Comments welcome either here or at the Friday IRC meeting. -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav) _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From erik_moeller at gmx.de Fri Sep 17 12:17:00 2004 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: 17 Sep 2004 14:17:00 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikidata: wiki-style databases Message-ID: <9H3yyhCCpVB@erik_moeller> Excerpt from http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata Wikidata is a proposed wiki-like database for various types of content. This project requires significant changes to the software (or possibly a completely new software) but has the potential to centrally store and manage data from all Wikimedia projects, and to radically expand the range of content that can be built using wiki principles. Imagine that you can edit the content of an infobox on Wikipedia (e.g. the country box for Germany) with one click, that you get an edit form specific to the infobox you are editing, and that other Wikipedias automatically and immediately use the same content (unless it is local and needs to be translated). Imagine that some data in an article can be automatically updated in the background, without any work from you - whether it is the development of a company stock, or the number of lines of code in an open source project. Imagine that you can easily search wiki-databases on a variety of subjects, without knowing anything about wikis. This project is separate from the Wikimedia Commons, because a Wikidata database does not necessarily have to be useful for another Wikimedia project, and because it is larger in scope. Applications Astronomy - '''space.wikidata.org''' (spc.wikidata.org) * astronomical objects * constellations * craters * observatories and telescopes * surveys * space missions Society - '''society.wikidata.org''' * Schools and universities * Cities, Countries, Subdivisions * Ethnic groups * Radio and television stations ... ---------------------------------------- Jimmy has just registered wikidata.org. We both agree that such a project makes sense. I've had similar ideas before, but the (IMHO premature) existence of Wikispecies has compelled me to put some of this down and develop the idea further. There's a GUI mock-up on the meta page of what data entry could look like, and there's a (very rough) proposed implementation strategy. If someone is willing to do so, it may make sense to create a proof-of-concept from scratch. I'm putting this idea out there for now so that it can be picked up at any later time. This is not urgent in any way, but it could open up a huge new range of projects where Wikimedia can compete with proprietary content producers. (Oh, and corporate users of MediaWiki would love us for this.) ---------------------------------------- I see two immediate consequences for us: 1) I believe that, if we do a database redesign, the needs of a project like Wikidata should be considered; that is, we should come up with an abstract scheme that allows storage and revision-handling for many different data structures. Otherwise we'll have to do another huge conversion later. 2) For Wikispecies, I suggest that those involved with the project make sure that all data entered into the wiki is in a *structured form* so that it can then later be easily converted into a real database structure. Regards, Erik From delirium at hackish.org Fri Sep 17 17:21:04 2004 From: delirium at hackish.org (Delirium) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:21:04 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: domain name administrator--> Trust level In-Reply-To: <20040915020223.51638.qmail@web14026.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040915020223.51638.qmail@web14026.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <414B1D00.8080109@hackish.org> Christopher Mahan wrote: >I peronally think that the job is highly critical, and should not be >left to a volunteer. You should either hire someone who does this >already for a living, as a professional, or jimbo should handpick >someone he trusts explicitely. I think Jimbo does the DNS stuff now, >and probably will in the future. >So the point is probably moot. > > If it's already taken care of, it is indeed moot, but I think all that's really needed is a responsible volunteer who can be trusted to be contactable and keep the information in order. What we really need is to make sure we have all the information when it's needed, so if a developer were redoing our DNS setup, and needed some stuff changed, they would be able to get the information and access they needed. It's mostly having a dozen different people registering different domains at different registrars that would really be a mess. -Mark From anthere9 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 17 17:46:32 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:46:32 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] meta main page refactoring Message-ID: <414B22F8.50502@yahoo.com> I made some experiment on fr, and integrated the goings-on in the community page. You can have a first look here : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia%3APortail_communaut%C3%A9 The idea is that the community page hosts the ongoing information (at least the most recent one). A link allow to easily go to history. The edition follow a timeline. Most recent on top. The beginning of the line, in bold, indicate roughly the type of topic (Foundation, Tech, New project, Publishing etc...). Of course, on meta, the community page is ... the main page. So, roughly, on one side, we would have the ongoing information, on the other side, the permanent references. Add a pinch of rework on the various "current events", "news" and other announcements, plus a big spoon of translation... What do you think ? Ant From maveric149 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 17 18:07:01 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] meta main page refactoring In-Reply-To: <414B22F8.50502@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040917180701.48538.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> Sounds good to me. :) --- Anthere wrote: > I made some experiment on fr, and integrated the goings-on in the > community page. You can have a first look here : > http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia%3APortail_communaut%C3%A9 > > The idea is that the community page hosts the ongoing information (at > least the most recent one). A link allow to easily go to history. > > The edition follow a timeline. Most recent on top. The beginning of the > line, in bold, indicate roughly the type of topic (Foundation, Tech, New > project, Publishing etc...). > > Of course, on meta, the community page is ... the main page. > > So, roughly, on one side, we would have the ongoing information, on the > other side, the permanent references. > > Add a pinch of rework on the various "current events", "news" and other > announcements, plus a big spoon of translation... > > What do you think ? > > Ant > > > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From anthere9 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 17 18:58:02 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:58:02 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: meta main page refactoring References: <414B22F8.50502@yahoo.com> <20040917180701.48538.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <414B33BA.8020208@yahoo.com> Neat :-) Elian is interested as well. I think that once the press release is on its good way; meta is gonna undergo a little clean up :-) Daniel Mayer a ?crit: > Sounds good to me. :) > > > --- Anthere wrote: > > >>I made some experiment on fr, and integrated the goings-on in the >>community page. You can have a first look here : >>http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia%3APortail_communaut%C3%A9 >> >>The idea is that the community page hosts the ongoing information (at >>least the most recent one). A link allow to easily go to history. >> >>The edition follow a timeline. Most recent on top. The beginning of the >>line, in bold, indicate roughly the type of topic (Foundation, Tech, New >>project, Publishing etc...). >> >>Of course, on meta, the community page is ... the main page. >> >>So, roughly, on one side, we would have the ongoing information, on the >>other side, the permanent references. >> >>Add a pinch of rework on the various "current events", "news" and other >>announcements, plus a big spoon of translation... >> >>What do you think ? >> >>Ant >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>foundation-l mailing list >>foundation-l at wikimedia.org >>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l >> > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 18 02:10:57 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:10:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] New fundraising page version Message-ID: <20040918021057.71969.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> Still working on http://wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising and its subpages. Per Friday's meeting, here is my suggested tier scheme for the currency-specific versions of http://wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising/USD/monthly and http://wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising/USD/yearly MONTHLY Tier USD JPY EUR CAD GBP 1 2.5 300 2 3.5 1.5 2 5 500 4 7 3 3 10 1100 8 15 5 4 15 1500 10 20 8 5 20 2000 15 25 10 6 25 3000 20 30 15 7 35 4000 30 45 20 8 50 6000 40 65 30 9 70 8000 60 90 40 10 100 11000 80 130 55 YEARLY Tier USD JPY EUR CAD GBP 1 30 3600 24 42 18 2 60 6000 48 84 36 3 120 13200 96 180 60 4 180 18000 120 240 96 5 240 24000 180 300 120 6 300 36000 240 360 180 7 420 48000 360 540 240 8 600 72000 480 780 360 9 840 96000 720 1080 480 10 1200 132000 960 1560 660 Whatever we use, I would like to have the yearly amounts be exactly 12 times the monthly ones but will do whatever most people want. NOTE: PayPal recognizes at most 10 options and the above are *not* exact currency conversions; a good deal of rounding - sometimes up, sometimes down - was used on many values. If there are no suggestions for improvement, I'll go ahead and start to implement the above in 24 hours (first for English, then for the other languages; translators can start work now by using the visible text as a guide). The handful of people who have WMF wiki accounts should feel free to suggest changes by making them (I plan to mirror each of these pages on Meta once everything settles down; but that is just too much work right now). NOTE: I already plan to add more explanatory text. Any suggestions welcome. See aslo: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Fundraising_pages -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Sat Sep 18 02:39:52 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 22:39:52 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] New fundraising page version In-Reply-To: <20040918021057.71969.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040918021057.71969.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <742dfd0604091719397cffd8bf@mail.gmail.com> Perhaps fewer than 10 options would also work? Anything over 6 starts to make my head spin. I can't remember seeing so many options on many donation forms in the past. SJ From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 18 02:45:21 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:45:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] New fundraising page version In-Reply-To: <742dfd0604091719397cffd8bf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040918024521.86204.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote: > Perhaps fewer than 10 options would also work? Anything over 6 starts > to make my head spin. I can't remember seeing so many options on many > donation forms in the past. I agree - but which of the current tiers should be dropped? We must balance information overload with giving people choice. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Sat Sep 18 03:48:09 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 23:48:09 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] New fundraising page version In-Reply-To: <20040918024521.86204.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> References: <742dfd0604091719397cffd8bf@mail.gmail.com> <20040918024521.86204.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <742dfd06040917204828bbb48d@mail.gmail.com> 5, 10, 20, 35, 50, 100. On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:45:21 -0700 (PDT), Daniel Mayer wrote: > --- Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote: > > Perhaps fewer than 10 options would also work? Anything over 6 starts > > to make my head spin. I can't remember seeing so many options on many > > I agree - but which of the current tiers should be dropped? -- +sj+ From erik_moeller at gmx.de Sat Sep 18 05:53:00 2004 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: 18 Sep 2004 07:53:00 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [Mediawiki-l] Special-purpose MediaWiki clones, relation to MediaWiki family In-Reply-To: <414B397B.3030806@CRNano.org> Message-ID: <9H7zgcfCpVB@erik_moeller> Chris- > Yes, I was thinking of the Wikimedia Foundation's projects. Would > Wise-Nano or Nanopedia (the hoped-for end product) be a good addition to > that group of projects? > If my site uses a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike license, does > that fulfill the Gnu license, or do I have to include Gnu boilerplate on > any text I copy from a Gnu'd site? 1) The appropriate list to discuss whether a particular project can be part of the Wikimedia set of projects is http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l I've therefore CC'd my response there. 2) Generally, Wikimedia projects are very broad. There is only one notable exception to that rule, the recently created Wikispecies (which is why I think it should be incorporated into a larger Wikidata project). It has been proposed in the past to have a "Wikipolicy" project as a sort of open brainstorming space for determining useful political policies on various issues. That might be an idea worth developing further, but I would oppose a narrow project like Wise-Nano. 3) All text-centric projects are under the GNU FDL (Wikispecies licensing is not decided yet), so that would have to be the license to use. Regards, Erik From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Sat Sep 18 00:39:29 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:39:29 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] [Quarto] The first Wikimedia newsletter is finished Message-ID: <742dfd06040917173934a99c59@mail.gmail.com> Hello all, Wikimedia Quarto #1 is finished. It is being translated; please help if you can. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/NL-1/En%3A - Sj -- [[m:User:Sj]] ~ Huo dao lao, xue dao lao, hai you san fen xue budao From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 18 11:57:25 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:57:25 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Multiple recipients issue Message-ID: <414C22A5.5030103@yahoo.com> Each time a mail is sent to many lists at the same time, even from registered users, the mail is stopped and requires approval from the admin of the list. Is there a way to fix this ? Thanks Anthere Admin of this list... From beesley at gmail.com Sat Sep 18 15:33:30 2004 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 16:33:30 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Fundraising drive 2004 Message-ID: <8b722b800409180833684c3cd6@mail.gmail.com> Wikimedia are holding a cross-project fundraising drive from September 20 to October 3. We hope to raise $50,000 during this two week period. Donations can be made via the new fundraising pages at http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising which are being finalized this weekend. This was discussed at a meeting yesterday. A summary is at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_meeting%2C_September_2004 and the full log is at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_meeting%2C_September_2004/Log The fundraising drive will be publicized via a site notice, which will read: "Wikimedia Fundraising Drive 2004. Help us raise $50,000. See our fundraising page for details." This default can be translated by editing [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice]] on your own wiki. See http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_site_notice for further instructions. If the message is protected and your wiki has no admins, please translate it on [[MediaWiki talk:Sitenotice]] of your own wiki and ask a steward to make the edit for you at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_permissions#Fundraising_notices Please translate this message and ensure people on your project are aware of it. Thank you. Angela From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Sat Sep 18 22:38:51 2004 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 00:38:51 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Proposal for multilingual coordination on foundation website Message-ID: <414CB8FB.7030909@laposte.net> Hello. Sorry if this has been discussed before, or the place would be better on meta (in which case could someone post there and/or gimme the appropriate url? :) Here's a (rough) proposal for managing different language of pages, heavily based on [[m:Translation requests]]. When someone creates a new page (not translate an existing one), s/he creates two pages like that: * My page (title in original language) * My page/ In the first page, put link the 2nd, stating that's the original language. Then fill in 2nd. Maybe put timestamps of last change on 1st so easy to check when original changed. When someone translates ''My page'' to language xx, do translation in [[My page/xx]], and link from [[My page]]. When writing another page that links to ''My page'', try to link to [[My page/xx]]. If nothing, link to [[My page]] - it'll make people want to translate ''My page'', and point the page does exist - though not (yet) in language you'd want. If you want to link to a page you know doesn't exist, just link to [[Future page]], without /. This way, when [[Future page]] does get created, ''what links here'' will tell us which links need to be fixed to correct language. I hope it's clear lol. The benefits i see are: * when translating another document, easy to know which articles are translations of articles - either [[link/]], and if red [[link]] (assuming original link is not broken) * each page have a ''disambiguation''-like page, to link all versions and not forget a page here & there :) * you won't have someone translate [[Board]] to [[Conseil d'administration]] and someone else to [[Board/fr]], and thus don't need to check broken links or duplicates and whatever * software could prolly (though developers will know better'an me ;p) be tweaked to check for [[article/]] when someone asks for [[article]], and fallback on latter if not found - thus one day we can link straight to [[article]] On the bad side: * page title is always ''original language'' title, whatever the language the page actually is Nicolas 'Ryo' From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 19 03:07:59 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 05:07:59 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Proposal for multilingual coordination on foundation website References: <414CB8FB.7030909@laposte.net> Message-ID: <414CF80F.4000706@yahoo.com> Nicolas Weeger a ?crit: > Hello. > > Sorry if this has been discussed before, or the place would be better on > meta (in which case could someone post there and/or gimme the > appropriate url? :) > > Here's a (rough) proposal for managing different language of pages, > heavily based on [[m:Translation requests]]. > > When someone creates a new page (not translate an existing one), s/he > creates two pages like that: > * My page (title in original language) > * My page/ > > In the first page, put link the 2nd, stating that's the original > language. Then fill in 2nd. Maybe put timestamps of last change on 1st > so easy to check when original changed. > When someone translates ''My page'' to language xx, do translation in > [[My page/xx]], and link from [[My page]]. > > When writing another page that links to ''My page'', try to link to [[My > page/xx]]. If nothing, link to [[My page]] - it'll make people want to > translate ''My page'', and point the page does exist - though not (yet) > in language you'd want. > > If you want to link to a page you know doesn't exist, just link to > [[Future page]], without /. This way, when [[Future page]] does get > created, ''what links here'' will tell us which links need to be fixed > to correct language. > > I hope it's clear lol. > > The benefits i see are: > * when translating another document, easy to know which articles are > translations of articles - either [[link/]], and if red > [[link]] (assuming original link is not broken) > * each page have a ''disambiguation''-like page, to link all versions > and not forget a page here & there :) > * you won't have someone translate [[Board]] to [[Conseil > d'administration]] and someone else to [[Board/fr]], and thus don't need > to check broken links or duplicates and whatever > * software could prolly (though developers will know better'an me ;p) be > tweaked to check for [[article/]] when someone asks > for [[article]], and fallback on latter if not found - thus one day we > can link straight to [[article]] > > On the bad side: > * page title is always ''original language'' title, whatever the > language the page actually is > > Nicolas 'Ryo' Hmmm Well, I think you are suggesting this by reference of the newsletter and the wikimedia site translation. This could work for some translations I guess. But I see two problems with this : *the title being in original language is problematic. If the original language is in japanese, that means all I will see from this page title is ?????/fr. I fear it is not very informative to me to help me guess what is on the page. *at least on the wmf site, I can not really say which article is the original one. Languages are alternatively worked on. Similarly, if I refer to the newsletter, though I wrote a big part of it in french, which was translated in english by someone else, the version of the newsletter considered original was the english one... even though the original text was french. When the english text was edited, I had to edit back the "original" text in french, so it could fit the english text. After a while, this gets very confusing :-) This mix of origin does not goes much in the direction of having original and original/fr. But for other situations (true translations), that might work yes. From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Sun Sep 19 07:48:15 2004 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 09:48:15 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Proposal for multilingual coordination on foundation website In-Reply-To: <414CF80F.4000706@yahoo.com> References: <414CB8FB.7030909@laposte.net> <414CF80F.4000706@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <414D39BF.9060305@laposte.net> > *the title being in original language is problematic. If the original > language is in japanese, that means all I will see from this page title > is ?????/fr. > I fear it is not very informative to me to help me guess what is on the > page. Well, if you don't understand japanese, you'll need to wait for en: or fr: or translation anyway :) So not knowing what the title means isn't that harmful, is it? And actually, we could also do something like: create [[My page/fr:]] as a redirect to [[Ma page]]. We'll then know that ''My page'' does exist in french, make it easy to find it through the redirect, but still have a meaningful title. And/or, for ''static'' pages, once translated, we can move'em, and if required use bots to fix links (or fix manually) > *at least on the wmf site, I can not really say which article is the > original one. Languages are alternatively worked on. But at some point you need to decide ONE version is the base one, imo. Else, when we'll have 25+ languages, it'll be a real ugly mess to follow changes. For instance en: makes a draft, translated in fr: ja: de:, then ja: gets an idea, changes something in ja:, other languages need to synch, then de: had another idea and changed something else and.... you get the point :) Ryo From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 19 12:30:51 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 05:30:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] New fundraising page version In-Reply-To: <742dfd06040917204828bbb48d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040919123051.79185.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote: > 5, 10, 20, 35, 50, 100. Done. See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising/USD http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising/USD/monthly http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising/USD/yearly I've also created versions for CAD, JPY, EUR, and GBP. The templates I'm using are now fully translatable (using variables). Example: {{creditcards|1=PayPal accepts the above payment options}} {{DonationForm/Onetime/JPY|OnetimeDonation=One time donation|OneTimeGiftOf=One time gift of:|MoneyName=yen|ShortComment=Short public comment (200 characters)|MentionName=Do you want your name mentioned in a donor list?|Yes=Yes|No=No|IfNo=If you say no or don't answer, the amount and comment (if any) will be published as "Anonymous".|Optional=Optional field|Submit=Submit form to PayPal|Clear=Clear form}} Calls upon: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Template:DonationForm/Onetime/JPY To yield: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising/JPY/onetime (everything between = and | in the example can be changed and thus create a language-specific version) Major changes also made by Erik, Angela and I at: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising Non-English versions now need to be created. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From epzachte at chello.nl Sun Sep 19 14:07:24 2004 From: epzachte at chello.nl (epzachte at chello.nl) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 16:07:24 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] New fundraising page version Message-ID: <20040919140724.GMKY20913.amsfep12-int.chello.nl@localhost> Mav, I miss the edit box where people can specify any amount for a periodic contribution, as was agreed in the wikimeet last Friday. Also I wonder what the ''Tier x" prefix before each amount in the drop down box means. To me it suggests different Tiers bring different payback to the donator, or establish any other hierarchy which is it probably not what you meant. Erik Zachte From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 19 14:55:00 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 16:55:00 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Proposal for multilingual coordination on foundation website References: <414CB8FB.7030909@laposte.net> <414CF80F.4000706@yahoo.com> <414D39BF.9060305@laposte.net> Message-ID: <414D9DC4.1050603@yahoo.com> Nicolas Weeger a ?crit: > > >> *the title being in original language is problematic. If the original >> language is in japanese, that means all I will see from this page >> title is ?????/fr. >> I fear it is not very informative to me to help me guess what is on >> the page. > > > Well, if you don't understand japanese, you'll need to wait for en: or > fr: or translation anyway :) So not > knowing what the title means isn't that harmful, is it? Well, depends whether you want to avoid missing something :-) > And actually, we could also do something like: create [[My page/fr:]] as > a redirect to [[Ma page]]. We'll then know that ''My page'' does exist > in french, make it easy to find it through the redirect, but still have > a meaningful title. > And/or, for ''static'' pages, once translated, we can move'em, and if > required use bots to fix links (or fix manually) True. Redirects. We can do that :-) >> *at least on the wmf site, I can not really say which article is the >> original one. Languages are alternatively worked on. > > > > But at some point you need to decide ONE version is the base one, imo. > Else, when we'll have 25+ languages, it'll be a real ugly mess to follow > changes. For instance en: makes a draft, translated in fr: ja: de:, then > ja: gets an idea, changes something in ja:, other languages need to > synch, then de: had another idea and changed something else and.... you > get the point :) > > Ryo I do get it. But what do you suggest ? That we declare one language to be the default one in all cases (in this case, only english able people will have the possibility to change a page, since all the others will be translation), or that we set up committees to decide for each case which one will be the official ? I fear this is unworkable. My own position is that we will never have perfect translations, there will be drifts and as long as the spirit is there, that is enough to me. From kissall at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 14:54:37 2004 From: kissall at gmail.com (Kiss All) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 08:54:37 -0600 Subject: [Foundation-l] One suggestion for donation Message-ID: <384f6ad404091907544284dc4e@mail.gmail.com> I just looked at the donation page. It is good. However, I think you may provide more methods to get money for wikimedia. For example, selling T-shirt printed with wikipedia log, similar sticker for volunteers to put on car bumpers. Sometimes, people are more willing to get something while contributing. And those things I mentioned are useful to spread the effect of wikipedia. I saw a lot of bumper stickers everyday. And some are very interesting and very impressive while some hurt my feeling a lot such as "Free Tibet". I don't like the idea of fission my country with the excuse of wrong behaviors of government. I would definitely buy one with WikiMedia slogan and put it on my rear bumper to proudly declare: I am a wikipedian! Joint us! And I would wear the T-shirt often too :-). But make sure you provide size M suitable for asians. Most T-shirts in USA are too large for us. -- Be good.... From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 19 14:59:19 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 16:59:19 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: New fundraising page version References: <742dfd06040917204828bbb48d@mail.gmail.com> <20040919123051.79185.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <414D9EC7.1000209@yahoo.com> Daniel Mayer a ?crit: > --- Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote: > >>5, 10, 20, 35, 50, 100. > > > Done. > > See > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising/USD > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising/USD/monthly > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising/USD/yearly > > I've also created versions for CAD, JPY, EUR, and GBP. > > The templates I'm using are now fully translatable (using variables). > > Example: > {{creditcards|1=PayPal accepts the above payment options}} > > {{DonationForm/Onetime/JPY|OnetimeDonation=One time donation|OneTimeGiftOf=One > time gift of:|MoneyName=yen|ShortComment=Short public comment (200 > characters)|MentionName=Do you want your name mentioned in a donor > list?|Yes=Yes|No=No|IfNo=If you say no or don't answer, the amount and comment > (if any) will be published as "Anonymous".|Optional=Optional > field|Submit=Submit form to PayPal|Clear=Clear form}} > > Calls upon: > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Template:DonationForm/Onetime/JPY > > To yield: > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising/JPY/onetime > > (everything between = and | in the example can be changed and thus create a > language-specific version) > > Major changes also made by Erik, Angela and I at: > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising > > Non-English versions now need to be created. > > -- mav I entirely changed the french version which was not working at all any more. Hopefully works better now. I have a problem though. I think no language version will be identical one to another. It is a pain to just do translations and not be creative as well. I change the french page in a way that seemed nice to me. I come back the next day, and the english page is entirely changed and I should entirely do the french version again ? How are we gonna update all languages each time the english version is changed ? This will be a very difficult task. I am at a loss of how we can handle this properly, in a way not to discourage translators. From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Sun Sep 19 14:58:18 2004 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 16:58:18 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Proposal for multilingual coordination on foundation website In-Reply-To: <414D9DC4.1050603@yahoo.com> References: <414CB8FB.7030909@laposte.net> <414CF80F.4000706@yahoo.com> <414D39BF.9060305@laposte.net> <414D9DC4.1050603@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <414D9E8A.7060401@laposte.net> > I do get it. > But what do you suggest ? That we declare one language to be the default Sorry, wasn't clear :) Two cases: simple page, complex page Simple page, one person does the first version in whatever language s/he wants, that's the "original" language. Of course people can suggest changes & such. This page is though considered "master" one, ie people should translate it (if they know the language, of course!) and not another. Hint: the talk page of "my page" can be used to discuss changes. Complex page, with many people writing: split "master" page in some subpages, each one in its language. Maybe even use templates. When all bits are ok, make a page including those templates. Example: [[Complex page]] => [[Template:CP1]], [[Template:CP2]], [[Template:CP3]] Translate CP1, CP2 & 3. To make [[Complex page/fr:]] just do {{CP1/fr:}} {{CP2/fr:}} {{CP3/fr:}} => there you go. And to make other versions, just subst fr: to language code - you can then do ONE time the page layout, and include tidbits around. *wonders if that's clear O.o* Ryo From kissall at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 15:22:19 2004 From: kissall at gmail.com (Kiss All) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 09:22:19 -0600 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] One suggestion for donation In-Reply-To: References: <384f6ad404091907544284dc4e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <384f6ad404091908221505484f@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 08:05:15 -0700 (PDT), andrew fabbro wrote: of government. > > The rest of the world's feelings are hurt by Chinese imperialism and the Your word of "the rest of the world" here is a little bit strange for me. You only have right to express your own opinion. But never, please never assume you are the rest of the world. How to define the "rest of the world" and how do you know its feeling is the same as yours? > destruction of Tibetan culture. Until China can behave like a modern, > grown-up nation, no one gives a shit about your "feelings". Again, your word of "no one" here is strange for me. As far as I know, you gave a shit-about my feelings, but it does not mean "no one". You are assuming you are the reprentative for anybody except me? I am confident many people in this world care my feelings. I can only draw a conculsion from your words that you are little bit arrogant. But that is not fully your fault. For me, I am trying to care anybody's feeling when doing things. Forgive my word if what I saying is a kind of offend in your culture. Thanks for your attention for this suggestion. though it is a little bit off-topic > > andrew fabbro [andrew at fabbro.org] > ------------------------------[ quote-o-matic] ----------------------------- > "I've been thinking about all my cool electronic gadgets and how they've > never brought me real happiness. I guess it's because I don't have > enough of them." -- Matt Diamond > -- Be good.... From erik_moeller at gmx.de Sun Sep 19 15:27:00 2004 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: 19 Sep 2004 17:27:00 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] What should I buy? In-Reply-To: <20040918232011.GA18598@wikia.com> Message-ID: <9HB+m1NhpVB@erik_moeller> Jimmy- > 3. I have here in the office 12 4U servers (11 mobos, 12 cases) of > extremely questionable quality. Details are posted on meta: > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Hardware_donation_September_2004 Can these machines be refurbished to turn them into Wikireader terminals? Do we have any plans to do so? It seems to me that in the mid to long term, we will want to set up a hardware donation and refurbishing programme for that purpose, but the logistics of that could be quite intimidating. Rather than set up a central, dedicated storage and testing facility, we could try a decentralized approach and let trusted volunteers store and refurbish as many machines as they can. We only would provide money for shipping the machines to their eventual destination. (We'd have a catalog of destinations and each volunteer would be assigned a destination close to them to save costs.) We'd need an easy to install Linux Terminal Software (based on Knoppix?) at least. And we would need a setup in place where we can easily ship updates to clients, preferably without affecting other data on the client machines. So - what are our plans in this regard? Is there a page on Meta for this already? (Copied to foundation-l.) Regards, Erik From erik_moeller at gmx.de Sun Sep 19 15:17:00 2004 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: 19 Sep 2004 17:17:00 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: New fundraising page version In-Reply-To: <414D9EC7.1000209@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9HB+lpahpVB@erik_moeller> Anthere- > How are we gonna update all languages each time the english version is > changed ? This will be a very difficult task. I am at a loss of how we > can handle this properly, in a way not to discourage translators. I see two strategies: 1) Agree on one language to finish it in first, then freeze (protect) it and do all the translations. Make this freeze deadline clear from the start. 2) Make a checklist of facts. Don't worry about the differences in design as long as the facts are presented accurately. In this case, I prefer strategy 2). Regards, Erik From erik_moeller at gmx.de Sun Sep 19 15:55:00 2004 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: 19 Sep 2004 17:55:00 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Official Wikimedia roadmap? Message-ID: <9HB+oxkSpVB@erik_moeller> Without wanting to overburden the Board of Trustees which I am sure is already working at their personal limits, I'd like to suggest that we create an official Wikimedia roadmap for the next 3 years. When working on the fundraising pages, I could not find a good, officially sanctioned "future activities" page on meta or elsewhere (if I missed something, please let me know). I think that this, together with a well- written mission statement, would be quite important to educate people about what Wikimedia is about. This could address many common criticisms (Wikipedia is not reliable etc.) and hopefully put to rest the misconception that Wikimedia and Wikipedia are essentially the same project. What I am thinking of is a document roughly with three columns: Quarter Projects Technology Financial --------------------------------------------------------------------- Q4/2004 - Launch Wikinews [*] - MW: Database schema - Quarterly - German Wikipedia CD redesign fundraising with each of these items linking to detailed project pages. This could then be combined with some prose that outlines our vision for future projects and needs. I want us to become better aware of the interdependencies between and financial needs of our projects, otherwise we might run into some serious trouble when e.g. we start some well-intended offline edition without a solid peer review process in place. There's a problem with this, however, in that the board would have to decide *now* which projects it thinks will be executed in the future, even if there has not yet been a vote or a full feasibility study on these projects. In order to address this problem, I added a "[*]" above, which would then be resolved to [*] Tentative. There is consensus among board members that this [[m:Category:Proposed projects|proposed project]] is a good idea worth pursuing, but no extensive community review has happened yet. Hence, I would suggest that the roadmap essentially would reflect the board's collective bias on the various proposed projects. What are your thoughts on that? We could try to write this together on Meta, but the Board would at least have to provide a rough "consensus paper" to base it on (e.g. which projects the board definitely wants to do, which technology needs it definitely sees etc.). After some community work, it would then be handed back to the board for editing and the final stamp of approval. Regards, Erik From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 19 16:19:29 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:19:29 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Proposal for multilingual coordination on foundation website References: <414CB8FB.7030909@laposte.net> <414CF80F.4000706@yahoo.com> <414D39BF.9060305@laposte.net> <414D9DC4.1050603@yahoo.com> <414D9E8A.7060401@laposte.net> Message-ID: <414DB191.6020400@yahoo.com> come over to wmf, and give it a try :-) Nicolas Weeger a ?crit: >> I do get it. >> But what do you suggest ? That we declare one language to be the default > > > > Sorry, wasn't clear :) > Two cases: simple page, complex page > > Simple page, one person does the first version in whatever language s/he > wants, that's the "original" language. Of course people can suggest > changes & such. This page is though considered "master" one, ie people > should translate it (if they know the language, of course!) and not > another. Hint: the talk page of "my page" can be used to discuss changes. > > Complex page, with many people writing: split "master" page in some > subpages, each one in its language. Maybe even use templates. When all > bits are ok, make a page including those templates. > Example: [[Complex page]] => [[Template:CP1]], [[Template:CP2]], > [[Template:CP3]] > Translate CP1, CP2 & 3. To make [[Complex page/fr:]] just do {{CP1/fr:}} > {{CP2/fr:}} {{CP3/fr:}} => there you go. > And to make other versions, just subst fr: to language code - you can > then do ONE time the page layout, and include tidbits around. > > *wonders if that's clear O.o* > > Ryo From rowan.collins at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 17:33:15 2004 From: rowan.collins at gmail.com (Rowan Collins) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:33:15 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Official Wikimedia roadmap? In-Reply-To: <9HB+oxkSpVB@erik_moeller> References: <9HB+oxkSpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <9f02ca4c04091910331c622fd6@mail.gmail.com> On 19 Sep 2004 17:55:00 +0200, Erik Moeller wrote: > Without wanting to overburden the Board of Trustees which I am sure is > already working at their personal limits, I'd like to suggest that we > create an official Wikimedia roadmap for the next 3 years. This seems like quite a sensible idea, if people are willing to give it due consideration. It's always good to have a definite focus and deadlines, even if they are self-imposed and easily altered. For instance, deciding *when* (or over what timescale) something like "Wikipedia 1.0" or single-sign-on should be achieved would help define when people should move from broad discussion to detailed plans and actual action. It's all too easy in a democratic type structure to do a lot of talking, and not get round to acting. [Either that, or I'm psychologically transferring my own faults onto the entire Wikimedia community... ;)] -- Rowan Collins BSc [IMSoP] From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 20:13:19 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 16:13:19 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Delay in press release In-Reply-To: <41466EE4.4010900@earthlink.net> References: <20040913114346.D4F2B1AC0447@mail.wikimedia.org> <41466EE4.4010900@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <742dfd06040919131368d59964@mail.gmail.com> Hi Michael, Thanks again for coordinating this. :) So people should start mailing the press tonight at 2400 UTC? There is a global press-release-log at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Press_release_logbook ; please note which groups you plan to contact there before you contact them, and then verify you've done so (with a timestamp) once you've send the letter. --Sj On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:09:08 -0700, Michael Snow wrote: > In connection with the upcoming press release celebrating one million > Wikipedia articles, we are working to translate not only the press > release itself, but also make the Wikimedia Foundation website available > in languages other than English. This is needed for us to make the best > use of the publicity and also to help our fundraising efforts. However, > this project will carry us through the weekend. > > Therefore, at the request of the Board of Trustees, I am delaying the > distribution of the press release until Monday, September 20. That will > be the day for the official announcement, although we may actually reach > the million-article milestone earlier. This will allow us sufficient > time to get things ready in as many languages as possible. Also, it may > be helpful to have the press release come at the beginning of the weekly > news cycle, as this may allow for better exposure over the course of the > week. > > Please pass this on to your respective projects and anyone who is > planning to help with this effort. In the meantime, everyone who will > help distribute the press release could make good use of the time to > identify the right contact people at the media organizations you plan to > send the press release to. > > --Michael Snow > > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > -- +sj+ _ _ :-------.-.--------.--.--------.-.--------.--.--------[...] From Tom at folsoms.net Mon Sep 20 01:45:53 2004 From: Tom at folsoms.net (Tom at folsoms.net) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 21:45:53 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Official Wikimedia roadmap? In-Reply-To: <9HB+oxkSpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <414DFE11.16726.787353@localhost> This is my first post to the mailing list, but I've been reading it for awhile, and this post is something I really wanted to reply to and put my support behind. One of the ways I always attract people to Wikipedia is to say something like "well, this is the main project, the first one. It's pretty amazing... here are all the cool features (list). But look at this! There are also wikiquote, Wikibooks, etc etc, and proposals for lots more". Normally that's enough to get people interested, but that's when my trouble starts- questions. The latest one I got was repeated several times- I like Wikipedia, but I want to work on 1.0.... do we know what plans are for that, what timing? Is there a more updated page? an organizer for the project? Things like that are common questions that I get. Also some technical issues, although really the only main thing is the "I have to have multiple accounts for all these projects?". Any way, a single page that could act as a clearing-house for all of the proposed projects and features would be a great way to not only get people involved in new things, but make sure everyone knows what is really going on. I really like this idea- especially because I want to be able to add WikiReader and 1.0 information to it (what I'm waiting to get involved with more). Lyellin From maveric149 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 02:33:02 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:33:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Official Wikimedia roadmap? In-Reply-To: <9HB+oxkSpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <20040920023302.29403.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Erik Moeller wrote: > Without wanting to overburden the Board of Trustees which I am sure is > already working at their personal limits, I'd like to suggest that we > create an official Wikimedia roadmap for the next 3 years. > ... All great ideas. Creating a 3 and/or 5 year masterplan is simply good operating procedure. This was part of my failed candidate bid and something I think is *very* important. But we first need to get a handle on short and mid-term planning (specifically an official quarterly and yearly budget) before we dive too much into the long term, IMO. Both can and should be done at the same time, but more effort is needed (esp. initially) to get the short term systems in place (in progress). I really could use a tech person to help me figure out projected hardware-related costs. -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From beesley at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 02:40:33 2004 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 03:40:33 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Official Wikimedia roadmap? In-Reply-To: <9HB+oxkSpVB@erik_moeller> References: <9HB+oxkSpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <8b722b800409191940302c86b9@mail.gmail.com> I completely agree with the need to document the longer term plans of the Foundation. Danny started a page on this a while ago at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Three-year_plan It would helpful if people used that page to give their own suggestions of what they would like Wikimedia's goals to be over the next three years to help the Board come up with a more concrete plan. Angela. From maveric149 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 06:10:22 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 23:10:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] New fundraising page version In-Reply-To: <20040919140724.GMKY20913.amsfep12-int.chello.nl@localhost> Message-ID: <20040920061022.71321.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> --- epzachte at chello.nl wrote: > Mav, I miss the edit box where people can specify any amount for a periodic > contribution, > as was agreed in the wikimeet last Friday. Our choices with PayPal are limited; we either get a drop down or an input field , not both. > Also I wonder what the ''Tier x" prefix before each amount in the drop down > box means. Nothing other than being able to easily keep track of amounts over 4 languages and two periods. I might remove them. > To me it suggests different Tiers bring different payback to the donator, > or establish any other hierarchy which is it probably not what you meant. In the future they could mean that, but not yet. To everybody: And I thought that the fund drive was starting at 20:00 UTC on Monday. Why is there a fund drive note at the top of the English Wikipedia? PLEASE take that down until the fund drive starts - I'm still working on the fund drive pages and WILL NOT have time to update the goal bar until I'm done. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From maveric149 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 06:20:28 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 23:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] One suggestion for donation In-Reply-To: <384f6ad404091907544284dc4e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040920062028.26441.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kiss All wrote: > I just looked at the donation page. It is good. However, I think you > may provide more methods to get money for wikimedia. For example, > selling T-shirt printed with wikipedia log, similar sticker for > volunteers to put on car bumpers. We do that with a CafePress account. See http://www.cafepress.com/wikipedia > Sometimes, people are more willing to get something while > contributing. And those things I mentioned are useful to spread the > effect of wikipedia. IIRC we haven't broke $1000 profit yet for our CafePress account. Yet we took in well over $50,000 the first half this year in pure donations. -- mav _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From maveric149 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 08:15:24 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 01:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Fund drive progress (was Re:New fundraising page version) In-Reply-To: <20040920061022.71321.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040920081524.35321.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Daniel Mayer wrote: > To everybody: > And I thought that the fund drive was starting at 20:00 UTC on Monday. Why is > there a fund drive note at the top of the English Wikipedia? PLEASE take that > down until the fund drive starts - I'm still working on the fund drive pages > and WILL NOT have time to update the goal bar until I'm done. Nevermind. I'm done for now with the changes I wanted to make to the English, French, and German versions of the fundraising page and Suisui is doing the same thing for the Japanese version. So I went ahead and updated the fund drive template on the WMF wiki. See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising We are at $1,294.34 USD so far (the green bar needs to be a bit wider before it will show any text). The bar is updated by hand by those people with read access to the PayPal account. I'll be able to update the fund drive bar at least a couple times a day - others who have access are welcome to make updates as well. :) -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From yann at forget-me.net Mon Sep 20 08:59:16 2004 From: yann at forget-me.net (Yann Forget) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 10:59:16 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] favicons In-Reply-To: <20040920030746.GA11776@mongoose> References: <20040920030746.GA11776@mongoose> Message-ID: <200409201059.16988.yann@forget-me.net> Le Monday 20 September 2004 05:07, Joshua Swink a ?crit : > Sometimes I like to have several 'pedias open at once, in tabs, > and it would be nice if they had different favicons. These icons > are in the tabs, so if they did, I could tell which pedia was > in a tab quickly. > > I have made some simple ones for Meta, Wikibooks and Wikiquote, > and was wondering if someone could put them on the wikis. They > are at http://yath.phreadom.net/wikicons/. Nice idea, but we need icons a bit more "international" and less English based. ;o) So for Wikiquote, it might be OK, for meta I don't know, and for Wikibooks, we need something better. And Wikisource and Wiktionary are missing. BTW, this is the wrong list, so redirect to foundation-l at wikimedia.org. > Thanks! > > -- > Joshua Swink > yathster at yahoo.com Best wishes, Yann -- http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux From petr.kadlec at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 09:45:55 2004 From: petr.kadlec at gmail.com (Petr Kadlec) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:45:55 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Fundraising pages Message-ID: Could someone please explain if there is some logical system in all those WMF-donation pages? I know about http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF-don http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Fundraising_pages http://wikimedia.org/fundraising http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Home and it seems to me they differ among themselves somewhat significantly. I have translated the page at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF-don to czech as I thought it would be better if the sitenotice that I have placed to w:cs: would better link to a czech version of the page. But now, I have no idea where should the czech translation be placed (I suppose that m:Translation_requests/WMF-don/Cs: is not its final place), I cannot add a page to wikimediafoundation.org like the german Wikipedia did (as I have no login there), or should I create a fundraising page directly on cs: ? And, regarding the translation: I have left out those PayPal links (and left only one in the text), as PayPal cannot be used from Czechia, so they are of no use to czech users (MoneyBookers work fine). I hope this is OK? And a final technical question: The translation request says "Note that these pages do *not* use wiki-markup, but only HTML." But the Translation requests/WMF-don/En: is in wiki-markup! I have used wiki-markup as I used the en: version as the source; I could change it to HTML, but...should I? Regards, Petr Kadlec (a sysop as cs:User:Mormegil) From anthere9 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 11:39:41 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:39:41 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Official Wikimedia roadmap? References: <9HB+oxkSpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <414EC17D.4020709@yahoo.com> I certainly agree on the principle. Practically, some thoughts were already given by Danny and Sj on this if I remember well, and there was already some work done in that perspective, when I suggested we create the hardware requirement page so as to help Mav in his budgeting work. There is one point on which I do not agree with you though. It has to do with the projects launching typically. If we do what you suggest (ie, indicating the board planned road, to be reviewed/approved by the community), it implies we are having a top down approach entirely. Besides, it makes it appear we have already taken decisions in our mind of what to do and what not to do, even though we may just be thinking of it. For example, you seem to suggest that 1) the board should indicates its desire for a wikinews project (as a good idea to pursue... which implies there already is a good and definitive description of the project to be based our decision upon), then that 2) the project should be reviewed and approved by the community. It seems to me this approach is PRECISELY the one which was recently rejected and that there was a general desire for the community to be the motor of road map. Hence, though I definitly have some opinions myself, I will prefer to have this road map collectively written, rather than the board giving a strong steering direction. In this, we differ very much :-) Anthere Erik Moeller a ?crit: > Without wanting to overburden the Board of Trustees which I am sure is > already working at their personal limits, I'd like to suggest that we > create an official Wikimedia roadmap for the next 3 years. > > When working on the fundraising pages, I could not find a good, officially > sanctioned "future activities" page on meta or elsewhere (if I missed > something, please let me know). I think that this, together with a well- > written mission statement, would be quite important to educate people > about what Wikimedia is about. This could address many common criticisms > (Wikipedia is not reliable etc.) and hopefully put to rest the > misconception that Wikimedia and Wikipedia are essentially the same > project. > > What I am thinking of is a document roughly with three columns: > > Quarter Projects Technology Financial > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Q4/2004 - Launch Wikinews [*] - MW: Database schema - Quarterly > - German Wikipedia CD redesign fundraising > > with each of these items linking to detailed project pages. This could > then be combined with some prose that outlines our vision for future > projects and needs. > > I want us to become better aware of the interdependencies between and > financial needs of our projects, otherwise we might run into some serious > trouble when e.g. we start some well-intended offline edition without a > solid peer review process in place. > > There's a problem with this, however, in that the board would have to > decide *now* which projects it thinks will be executed in the future, even > if there has not yet been a vote or a full feasibility study on these > projects. In order to address this problem, I added a "[*]" above, which > would then be resolved to > > [*] Tentative. There is consensus among board members that this > [[m:Category:Proposed projects|proposed project]] is a good idea > worth pursuing, but no extensive community review has happened yet. > > Hence, I would suggest that the roadmap essentially would reflect the > board's collective bias on the various proposed projects. > > What are your thoughts on that? We could try to write this together on > Meta, but the Board would at least have to provide a rough "consensus > paper" to base it on (e.g. which projects the board definitely wants to > do, which technology needs it definitely sees etc.). After some community > work, it would then be handed back to the board for editing and the final > stamp of approval. > > Regards, > > Erik From anthere9 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 11:40:35 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:40:35 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: New fundraising page version References: <20040919140724.GMKY20913.amsfep12-int.chello.nl@localhost> <20040920061022.71321.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <414EC1B3.7080108@yahoo.com> > To everybody: > And I thought that the fund drive was starting at 20:00 UTC on Monday. Why is > there a fund drive note at the top of the English Wikipedia? PLEASE take that > down until the fund drive starts - I'm still working on the fund drive pages > and WILL NOT have time to update the goal bar until I'm done. > > -- mav The fund drive was starting at 20:00 UTC on Sundays :-( (so I myself understood) ant From yann at forget-me.net Mon Sep 20 11:45:54 2004 From: yann at forget-me.net (Yann Forget) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:45:54 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Official Wikimedia roadmap? In-Reply-To: <9HB+oxkSpVB@erik_moeller> References: <9HB+oxkSpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <200409201345.54264.yann@forget-me.net> Le Sunday 19 September 2004 17:55, Erik Moeller a ?crit : > Without wanting to overburden the Board of Trustees which I am sure is > already working at their personal limits, I'd like to suggest that we > create an official Wikimedia roadmap for the next 3 years. Yes, excellent. I added a paragraph about WSIS: the World Summit on Information Society. I think that really something in which the WMF should take part. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Three-year_plan http://www.itu.int/wsis/ > Regards, > > Erik Regards, Yann -- http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux From anthere9 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 11:41:46 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:41:46 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Fund drive progress (was Re:New fundraising page version) References: <20040920061022.71321.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <20040920081524.35321.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <414EC1FA.9030203@yahoo.com> The french donation page was tested by Aurevilly yesterday evening (2 hours before the start). It worked perfectly :-) Thanks a lot Mav. ant Daniel Mayer a ?crit: > --- Daniel Mayer wrote: > >>To everybody: >>And I thought that the fund drive was starting at 20:00 UTC on Monday. Why is >>there a fund drive note at the top of the English Wikipedia? PLEASE take that >>down until the fund drive starts - I'm still working on the fund drive pages >>and WILL NOT have time to update the goal bar until I'm done. > > > Nevermind. I'm done for now with the changes I wanted to make to the English, > French, and German versions of the fundraising page and Suisui is doing the > same thing for the Japanese version. > > So I went ahead and updated the fund drive template on the WMF wiki. > > See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising > > We are at $1,294.34 USD so far (the green bar needs to be a bit wider before it > will show any text). > > The bar is updated by hand by those people with read access to the PayPal > account. I'll be able to update the fund drive bar at least a couple times a > day - others who have access are welcome to make updates as well. :) > > -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav) > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From erik_moeller at gmx.de Mon Sep 20 13:45:00 2004 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: 20 Sep 2004 15:45:00 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Official Wikimedia roadmap? In-Reply-To: <414EC17D.4020709@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9HC0U3expVB@erik_moeller> Anthere- > For example, you seem to suggest that 1) the board should indicates its > desire for a wikinews project (as a good idea to pursue... which implies > there already is a good and definitive description of the project to be > based our decision upon), then that 2) the project should be reviewed > and approved by the community. Approved or denied. The community doesn't have to rubber stamp the board's suggestions. However, we want a document that reflects the official - tentative - Wikimedia position. That position may change at any time, but in practice it probably won't change that much. There are two approaches I see to create such a document: 1) The board tries to find the things everyone (in the board, and largely outside) agrees on. Being trusted by the community, they are a good set of representatives to make this decision. They compile it into a list, and the community builds the roadmap on that list, marking of course anything that has even the slightest potential for controversy as tentative. 2) The community makes the decisions right from the start. This is very difficult, because by the time a project has this level of community interest, it is almost ready to launch - not very useful for a roadmap if you can't look into the future. I don't see this working unless we create a systematic process by which the community evaluates and rates / votes on proposed projects early on. Do you have any other ideas? If not, which one of these approaches do you prefer? Regards, Erik From beesley at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 14:54:38 2004 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 15:54:38 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Fundraising pages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8b722b8004092007546d6ae55d@mail.gmail.com> Petr Kadlecwrote: > Could someone please explain if there is some logical system in all > those WMF-donation pages? ...The translation request says "Note > that these pages do *not* use wiki-markup, but only HTML. Sorry but I had not realized the [[m:Translation requests/WMF-don]] page existed or I would have updated it. The instructions there are now out of date as the pages have moved to the Foundation website. All donations pages are now in wikitext and they rely heavily on the template system that mav described at http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2004-September/001021.html The version that should be translated is at http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising on the Foundation wiki. Please do not rely on any old copies that may still be on Meta. I apologize for any confusion that has resulted over this. There are already four completed language versions of the fundraising page and I want to say thank you to Akl, Alex756, Anthere, Aphaia, Elian, Eloquence, Greudin, Kzhr, Paddy, Ryo, Sj, Suisui, Timwi, Tipiac, Tomos, Villy, and Yann for their work on these. Thanks also to Brion Vibber for making it technically possible to have these pages on the new Foundation wiki, and to Tim Starling and Looxix for their development work on that wiki. Finally, a very big thanks to Daniel Mayer for his extensive work on the fundraising pages and all the associated templates, and for agreeing to keep the fundraising bar up to date over the next two weeks. The drive updates can be seen on any of the fundraising pages, and on the http://wikimediafoundation.org home page. Angela. From petr.kadlec at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 15:11:28 2004 From: petr.kadlec at gmail.com (PR Wikipedie) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:11:28 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Fundraising pages In-Reply-To: <8b722b8004092007546d6ae55d@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b8004092007546d6ae55d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > The version that should be translated is at > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising on the Foundation > wiki. Please do not rely on any old copies that may still be on Meta. > I apologize for any confusion that has resulted over this. There is a little problem that I do not have an account on wikimediafoundation.org (and I am not allowed to make one, obviously), so that I cannot even copy the source. But AFAICS the page is very similar (on the first sight identical, except the bar) to http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF-don/En:, which is the version I have used as the base for my translation (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF-don/Cs:). So the question is: what should I do with the translation (place to cs:, ask for an account on wikimediafoundation.org, submit to a commitee ;-) ...whatever) ? Petr Kadlec / Mormegil From maveric149 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 16:27:34 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:27:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Fundraising pages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040920162734.75219.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> --- Petr Kadlec wrote: > Could someone please explain if there is some logical system in all > those WMF-donation pages? I know about > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF-don > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Fundraising_pages > http://wikimedia.org/fundraising > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Home > and it seems to me they differ among themselves somewhat > significantly. I have translated the page at > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF-don to czech > as I thought it would be better if the sitenotice that I have placed > to w:cs: would better link to a czech version of the page. But now, I > have no idea where should the czech translation be placed (I suppose > that m:Translation_requests/WMF-don/Cs: is not its final place), I > cannot add a page to wikimediafoundation.org like the german Wikipedia > did (as I have no login there), or should I create a fundraising page > directly on cs: ? Sorry, everything is a mess right now and there is no documentation yet because we are making this up as we go along due to the extreme rush to get the WMF wiki set-up. Things should settle down a bit in a few days at which point I will try to figure this out for myself and document that. :) But we have moved from a one page, one language HTML-only setup to a 21 page per language setup that is very heavily dependent on wiki templates that take multiple variables (but if PayPal is irrelevant for cs, then that could be cut way down). I'm also not sure what the procedure for approving a translation is now or if there are only a certain set of languages we want translated - for that you will have to hear from the board. -- Daniel Mayer, WMF CFO __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From maveric149 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 16:50:51 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:50:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Fundraising pages In-Reply-To: <8b722b8004092007546d6ae55d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040920165051.85528.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> --- Angela wrote: > The version that should be translated is at > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising on the Foundation > wiki. Please do not rely on any old copies that may still be on Meta. The big problem is that non-logged in users see an [Edit] tab for non-protected pages but when they click it, it takes them to a message saying that to edit they need to log-in. No page source is provided. This needs to be fixed ASAP. > I apologize for any confusion that has resulted over this. So do I. But the whole new system was developed over the weekend so I haven't had time to do much documentation. > There are already four completed language versions of the fundraising > page and I want to say thank you to Akl, Alex756, Anthere, Aphaia, > Elian, Eloquence, Greudin, Kzhr, Paddy, Ryo, Sj, Suisui, Timwi, > Tipiac, Tomos, Villy, and Yann for their work on these. Thanks also to > Brion Vibber for making it technically possible to have these pages on > the new Foundation wiki, and to Tim Starling and Looxix for their > development work on that wiki. Finally, a very big thanks to Daniel > Mayer for his extensive work on the fundraising pages and all the > associated templates, and for agreeing to keep the fundraising bar up > to date over the next two weeks. Thank you. :) And a HUGE thank you to all the developers that helped create the template functionality in the first place. Variables are really neat! For example, I just have to update http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Template:Fund_drive and that updates all copies in 4 different languages, each with their own translation. Other example: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Template:DonationForm/Monthly/USD + http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Template:DonationForm/Monthly-en = http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising/USD/monthly via {{DonationForm/Monthly-en|CurrencyCode=USD}} Just change the en to fr, jp, or de to get those versions. -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From maveric149 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 16:54:41 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: New fundraising page version In-Reply-To: <414EC1B3.7080108@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040920165441.16692.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> --- Anthere wrote: > The fund drive was starting at 20:00 UTC on Sundays :-( (so I myself > understood) I missed that part. :) Everything is OK now - we just don't have much documentation of what I did (but others seem to be figuring it out on their own). -- mav _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 18:07:03 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:07:03 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Fundraising pages In-Reply-To: References: <8b722b8004092007546d6ae55d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <742dfd06040920110732d4587e@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:11:28 +0200, PR Wikipedie wrote: > > There is a little problem that I do not have an account on > wikimediafoundation.org (and I am not allowed to make one, obviously), > so that I cannot even copy the source. But AFAICS the page is very > similar (on the first sight identical, except the bar) to > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF-don/En:, which > is the version I have used as the base for my translation > (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF-don/Cs:). Hi Mormegil, Thanks for helping translate the new donation page! Because visitors cannot see the source on WMF.org, a current copy of the source for the donation page is kept at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF-don/En: (Although you should check your final result against the current revision on WMF.org, in case there have been last-minute changes) You put the translation in the right place; it may be a little while before it is migrated to the foundation site. Cheers, +sj+ _ _ :-------.-.--------.--.--------.-.--------.--.--------[...] From beesley at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 18:41:55 2004 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela_) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:41:55 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] The Wikimedia Foundation is not the WMF In-Reply-To: <742dfd06040920110732d4587e@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b8004092007546d6ae55d@mail.gmail.com> <742dfd06040920110732d4587e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8b722b8004092011415856e16f@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:07:03 -0400, Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote: > Although you should check your final result against the current revision > on WMF.org, in case there have been last-minute changes) I would like to request that everyone stops using the abbreviation WMF to refer to the Wikimedia Foundation. We do not own the domain name WMF.org and it is not likely we ever will. If people make the effort not to use it, it will reduce confusion and misdirected traffic. Although I quote Sj above, this is in no way directed only at him. It's bad enough that we don't own wikimedia.com that I think efforts should be made to prevent even more links to sites that are not really us. Thanks. Angela From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 18:47:31 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:47:31 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] One suggestion for donation In-Reply-To: <20040920062028.26441.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> References: <384f6ad404091907544284dc4e@mail.gmail.com> <20040920062028.26441.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <742dfd060409201147515b51be@mail.gmail.com> > We do that with a CafePress account. See > http://www.cafepress.com/wikipedia I still like this idea. I think we should consider a proper production run of one or two nice items, from a much cheaper manufacturer than cafe-press. They won't go to waste; among other things, we can send some of them to donors who give over a certain amount. Perhaps a new design contest is in order? As for myself, I love the tile coasters offered via cafepress, but wish the image were updated to reflect the new logo and skin. Erik, are you still maintaining this account? A water bottle and winter-suitable jacket would also be good additions to our list. > IIRC we haven't broke $1000 profit yet for our CafePress account. Yet we took > in well over $50,000 the first half this year in pure donations. On the other hand, distributing physical items with our logo is a gift that keeps on giving... as friends (even people who rarely use the web) see you wearing your shirt around, or guests admire your bizarre drink coasters at a party. When I wrote in favor of having "100,000 physical instances of WM products distributed", this is the kind of product I was thinking of. (The upcoming CD & DVD distributions are a fantastic start -- but unless you have an obnoxious brightly-colored CD-case design like AOL does, those kinds of products don't "keep giving" in quite the same way.) -- +sj+ From petr.kadlec at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 19:00:39 2004 From: petr.kadlec at gmail.com (Petr Kadlec) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 21:00:39 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Fundraising pages In-Reply-To: <742dfd06040920110732d4587e@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b8004092007546d6ae55d@mail.gmail.com> <742dfd06040920110732d4587e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: OK, I have updated the translation accordingly (unfortunately, wmf.org is not ours, is it ;-) ). Thanks for the help. Petr Kadlec / Mormegil From maveric149 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 19:14:34 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] One suggestion for donation In-Reply-To: <742dfd060409201147515b51be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040920191434.47250.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote: > I still like this idea. I think we should consider a proper > production run of one or two nice items, from a much cheaper > manufacturer than cafe-press. They won't go to waste; among other > things, we can send some of them to donors who give over a certain > amount. That would be a very good idea so that we can sell/give out items at meetups and other special events. > On the other hand, distributing physical items with our logo is a gift > that keeps on giving... as friends (even people who rarely use the > web) see you wearing your shirt around, or guests admire your bizarre > drink coasters at a party. Yes - promotion is good. Giving a person a t-shirt and a bumper sticker for donating 50 bucks (for example) may increase donations. But we have to work out the logistics of that first. > When I wrote in favor of having "100,000 physical instances of WM > products distributed", this is the kind of product I was thinking of. Neat goal. :) -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From saintonge at telus.net Mon Sep 20 19:20:10 2004 From: saintonge at telus.net (Ray Saintonge) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:20:10 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] favicons In-Reply-To: <200409201059.16988.yann@forget-me.net> References: <20040920030746.GA11776@mongoose> <200409201059.16988.yann@forget-me.net> Message-ID: <414F2D6A.3020706@telus.net> Yann Forget wrote: >Le Monday 20 September 2004 05:07, Joshua Swink a ?crit : > > >>Sometimes I like to have several 'pedias open at once, in tabs, >>and it would be nice if they had different favicons. These icons >>are in the tabs, so if they did, I could tell which pedia was >>in a tab quickly. >> >>I have made some simple ones for Meta, Wikibooks and Wikiquote, >>and was wondering if someone could put them on the wikis. They >>are at http://yath.phreadom.net/wikicons/. >> >> > >Nice idea, but we need icons a bit more "international" and less English >based. ;o) > >So for Wikiquote, it might be OK, for meta I don't know, and for Wikibooks, we >need something better. And Wikisource and Wiktionary are missing. > Given that we have several skins available one way to handle the problem is to set each of your commonly used projects to a different skin. Ec From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 20:33:15 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:33:15 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Proposal for multilingual coordination on foundation website In-Reply-To: <414D9E8A.7060401@laposte.net> References: <414CB8FB.7030909@laposte.net> <414CF80F.4000706@yahoo.com> <414D39BF.9060305@laposte.net> <414D9DC4.1050603@yahoo.com> <414D9E8A.7060401@laposte.net> Message-ID: <742dfd0604092013336c28e81e@mail.gmail.com> Wow, you're talking about a lot of things here, Ryo. :-) I'll try to summarize some of them; new thoughts indicated by "+". (At the end : a suggestion for better-audited translations, for sensitive pages) [I.] Separate language-independent content : layout, images, data (...) * Templates are useful for this. + All this can have its own talk: page [II.] Identify key languages which are accessible to most translators as source languages * distinguish "original content" from "source" for translation; original may not be in a key language + distinguish source for translation from "target content in key language"; sources for translation should be simple and free of idiom. A simplified english source for translation may not be the idiomatic english translation of the original. + sources will some day need to be available in multiple key languages [III.] For simple pages, have a lazy top-down translation process * Page P comes from a group writing in one language. * Discussion of content takes place on Talk:P + P is translated into key languages, then into target languages. + Version control is handled by checking the last timestamp on P (or the simplifies source used) and on the target translation. ++ At some point, work on the original can be frozen to let others catch up. [IV.] For complex pages, break them into simple pages * Complex page Q gets content from people writing in a few languages. * Separate Q into single-language subparts; treat each part as in III., using templates. ==== [III.] and [IV.] are good ways to start. We will eventually need better version-control for pages whose timeliness and synchronization is most important; see [V.] below. ==== <-- slightly gory details follow --> [V.] Unlazy Translation, originals in many languages, single source for translation (Especially for pages where content is being added to the same sections in many languages, in which case the above method won't work) ==LINKAGE== + Identify pages whose content is linked together. Let's call the set of mutually intertranslated pages on a given topic a cluster of pages. ++ Decide on a single source page for a cluster. It could contain content in multiple languages -- each paragraph listed once in each key language -- or just content in (simplified) english. ==PROPAGATION== + Provide a way to flag a change as 'needing translation'. (like major/minor edits) + Changes to each content page are translated to the source page. Changes to the source page are propagated to each content page. ==VERSION Control== + Track version numbers for each page. (Autoincluded somewhere on each revision) ++ Provide a way to say "Updated from page S, revision XX" when translating S into a page T (or more generally, when synchronising S with T). This could be done in tandem with a new translation interface, which shows S and T versions together while one is updating T. + Create a db-generated overview for each cluster, showing for each page + ~ When it was last synched with the source (version #s of both; changes made to it since then should be propagated to the source; this will usually be the current version) + ~ When the source was last synched with it (version #s of both; changes to the source since then should be propagated to it) The overview will let you can see exactly how far a particular change has propagated. (bg v.49 was synched with source v.112, but only ja: has been updated from the source since then...) Note that "when page P was last synched with me" is a transitive property (if the source is synched with page A, which is then synched with page B, the source is now synched with both A and B); so while many pages will be directly synched with other pages in the cluster rather than the source, this overview can still be kept current. You can modify this process to allow for multiple sources for translation (a kernel of sources, in a sense), rather than just one. -- +sj+ From saintonge at telus.net Mon Sep 20 20:38:22 2004 From: saintonge at telus.net (Ray Saintonge) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:38:22 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] The Wikimedia Foundation is not the WMF In-Reply-To: <8b722b8004092011415856e16f@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b8004092007546d6ae55d@mail.gmail.com> <742dfd06040920110732d4587e@mail.gmail.com> <8b722b8004092011415856e16f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <414F3FBE.3050409@telus.net> Angela_ wrote: >On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:07:03 -0400, Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote: > > >>Although you should check your final result against the current revision >>on WMF.org, in case there have been last-minute changes) >> >> >I would like to request that everyone stops using the abbreviation WMF >to refer to the Wikimedia Foundation. We do not own the domain name >WMF.org and it is not likely we ever will. If people make the effort >not to use it, it will reduce confusion and misdirected traffic. > >Although I quote Sj above, this is in no way directed only at him. >It's bad enough that we don't own wikimedia.com that I think efforts >should be made to prevent even more links to sites that are not really >us. > > Good point, both in the particular and in general. To me WMF normally refers to the World Monetary Fund. It made me wonder what they had to do with Wikimedia fundraising. :-) The problem with initialisms is bigger than unavailable domain names. There are other possible misunderstandings when an initialism is used. One example that led to a furious exchange more than a year ago was over "LOL". The user intended it as "Lots of Luck" to encourage the contributor; the recipient read it as "Laughing out Loud" and felt that his work was being insulted. Ec From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 21:05:25 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:05:25 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] The Wikimedia Foundation is not the WMF In-Reply-To: <8b722b8004092011415856e16f@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b8004092007546d6ae55d@mail.gmail.com> <742dfd06040920110732d4587e@mail.gmail.com> <8b722b8004092011415856e16f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <742dfd06040920140511f073c6@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:41:55 +0100, Angela_ wrote: > On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:07:03 -0400, Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote: > > Although you should check your final result against the current revision > > on WMF.org, in case there have been last-minute changes) > > We do not own the domain name WMF.org and it is not likely we ever will. A good point. Although WMF.net is only being squatted... Saluting your continued crusade against abbreviation, +sj+ From ropers at ropersonline.com Tue Sep 21 00:12:32 2004 From: ropers at ropersonline.com (Jens Ropers) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 02:12:32 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] The Wikimedia Foundation is not the WMF In-Reply-To: <742dfd06040920140511f073c6@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b8004092007546d6ae55d@mail.gmail.com> <742dfd06040920110732d4587e@mail.gmail.com> <8b722b8004092011415856e16f@mail.gmail.com> <742dfd06040920140511f073c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 20 Sep 2004, at 23:05, Sj wrote: > On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:41:55 +0100, Angela_ wrote: >> On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:07:03 -0400, Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote: >>> Although you should check your final result against the current >>> revision >>> on WMF.org, in case there have been last-minute changes) >> >> We do not own the domain name WMF.org and it is not likely we ever >> will. > > A good point. Although WMF.net is only being squatted... > > Saluting your continued crusade against abbreviation, > +sj+ Speaking of acronyms and [[TLA]]s -- may I recommend: The book LTI (aka Lingua Tertii Imperii) http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/0826457770/ -- ropers From yathster at yahoo.com Wed Sep 22 05:03:42 2004 From: yathster at yahoo.com (Joshua Swink) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 22:03:42 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] favicons Message-ID: <20040922050342.GA14941@mongoose> Sometimes I like to have several 'pedias open at once, in tabs, and it would be nice if they had different favicons. These icons are in the tabs, so if they did, I could tell which pedia was in a tab quickly. I have made some simple ones for Meta, Wikibooks and Wikiquote, and was wondering if someone could put them on the wikis. They are at http://yath.phreadom.net/wikicons/. Thanks! P.S. They are now a little more internationalized than the ones I mentioned on wikimedia-l. From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 07:42:05 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 03:42:05 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] favicons In-Reply-To: <20040922050342.GA14941@mongoose> References: <20040922050342.GA14941@mongoose> Message-ID: <742dfd060409220042320796e5@mail.gmail.com> That's really cool. I would love to see different favicons, too... also for the foundationwiki and wiktionary. ---SJ On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 22:03:42 -0700, Joshua Swink wrote: > Sometimes I like to have several 'pedias open at once, in tabs, > and it would be nice if they had different favicons. These icons > are in the tabs, so if they did, I could tell which pedia was > in a tab quickly. > > I have made some simple ones for Meta, Wikibooks and Wikiquote, > and was wondering if someone could put them on the wikis. They > are at http://yath.phreadom.net/wikicons/. -- +sj+ From yann at forget-me.net Wed Sep 22 16:49:36 2004 From: yann at forget-me.net (Yann Forget) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:49:36 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Capitalisation on the French Wiktionary Message-ID: <200409221849.36678.yann@forget-me.net> Hi, Capitalisation is now only an option in the French Wiktionary. So, f.e., now [[allemand]] and [[Allemand]] are two different articles. All language names are lower cases in French. Thanks, Yann -- http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux From yann at forget-me.net Wed Sep 22 21:46:12 2004 From: yann at forget-me.net (Yann Forget) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 23:46:12 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft Message-ID: <200409222346.12315.yann@forget-me.net> Hi, Mandrakesoft, the company which created and sells the Linux distribution, is interested to distribute a DVD with an English and French version of Wikipedia. This DVD will be sold in their web site and included with the next distribution, due in next April. Mandrakesoft will take legal responsibilities for this publication and is ready to donate some money to the Wikimedia Foundation. The amount is still to be decided. Mandrakesoft wants that we provide them with a master DVD, and would like to complete this first edition for Christmas. As you may have noticed, a mention about this was included in the press release and the newsletter with the authorization of Mandrakesoft who will also publish a press release about this project. The summary below is also available on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_and_Mandrakesoft == Points fixed so far == * It will first be sold on Mandrake web site, then included in the next version of the distribution. * It will include only the current version of the English and French distribution. Mandrakesoft publishes a French version sold in French speaking countries and an English (international) version sold elsewhere in the world. The English Wikipedia will be sold with the international version of Mandrake Linux. * Mandrakesoft asks that the Wikimedia Foundation provide them with a master DVD. * Mandrakesoft will take the legal responsibility for this publication. * Fair use images should be removed as the publication has to comply with worldwide copyright standards, not US only. Also images without proper licensing information have to be removed. == Questions that need answering == * Do we include only complete articles or the whole of Wikipedia including stubs? * How do we package it? Several possibilities, see the page on meta. == What you can do == So we need some help to complete this project. * Work is needed to provide proper lisensing information on all images in the English Wikipedia. * Help packaging. Help with technical knowledge is needed here. Med and Hashar, among others, are already working on this. Thanks, Yann -- http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux From erik_moeller at gmx.de Wed Sep 22 22:51:00 2004 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: 23 Sep 2004 00:51:00 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <200409222346.12315.yann@forget-me.net> Message-ID: <9HO2gV$xpVB@erik_moeller> Yann- > Hi, > Mandrakesoft, the company which created and sells the Linux distribution, is > interested to distribute a DVD with an English and French version of > Wikipedia. This DVD will be sold in their web site and included with the > next distribution, due in next April. As a responsible organization, we should make Mandrakesoft aware of the fact that no systematic vetting of all articles for copyright violations has taken place yet (at least on en:). If they want to take the responsibility for some guy inserting chapters from a book, or the text of a paper, or a magazine article, into Wikipedia, then that's OK, but this *is* a substantial risk, because changing the text on thousands of distributed DVDs is obviously a lot harder than taking down some bad revisions from our site. If Mandrakesoft ends up getting into trouble for this, I would like us to be able to publicly say "Shit happens, but we told you so" when this hits Slashdot or the New York Times. Unfortunately it's a little too easy - and therefore tempting - to create physical media distributions. We *really* need a working peer review mechanism in place before we go into that business. Besides fact-checking, we need a process where there are people who check the text against subscriber-only electronic archives, offline sources etc. for copyright violations, for example. This should be less difficult than it sounds if an expert in the field is checking the article anyway - those people usually have easy access to material in their field. Even basic Google searches are often not done. In terms of automated scanning, we should at least cover Google, groups.google and the Amazon.com "search inside the book" feature. Am I the only one who is worried about this? Regards, Erik From delirium at hackish.org Wed Sep 22 22:58:19 2004 From: delirium at hackish.org (Delirium) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:58:19 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <9HO2gV$xpVB@erik_moeller> References: <9HO2gV$xpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <4152038B.7010801@hackish.org> Erik Moeller wrote: >Am I the only one who is worried about this? > > Probably not--I think a good first step would be to contact someone appropriate at MandrakeSoft and see if they really know what they're getting into. When they say they're willing to take the legal risk, do they know that there is a non-negligible chance that there are copyrighted materials in there somewhere? Or are they only thinking about libel/etc.? It's possible they're familiar with Wikipedia and already know all this, but someone should find out. Besides that though, I don't see how we could possibly have any sort of peer-reviewed or even reasonably sifted version of Wikipedia available in time for a Christmas distribution, especially given the code infrastructure isn't in place yet for it to start. When they say they want a master DVD, do they mean some sort of reasonably vetted one, or are they waiting for us to stick a current snapshot on a DVD? -Mark From brion at pobox.com Wed Sep 22 23:20:00 2004 From: brion at pobox.com (Brion Vibber) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:20:00 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <200409222346.12315.yann@forget-me.net> References: <200409222346.12315.yann@forget-me.net> Message-ID: On Sep 22, 2004, at 2:46 PM, Yann Forget wrote: > Mandrakesoft wants that we provide them with a master DVD, and would > like to > complete this first edition for Christmas. I have to warn that this schedule sounds insanely optimistic. Somebody would need to check and lock off for publishing several thousand articles each day in order to meet this deadline. -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PGP.sig Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 186 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20040922/ebc33951/attachment.pgp From t.starling at physics.unimelb.edu.au Thu Sep 23 01:21:38 2004 From: t.starling at physics.unimelb.edu.au (Tim Starling) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:21:38 +1000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Ahhh crosspost!!! (was Re: Partnership with Mandrakesoft) In-Reply-To: <200409222346.12315.yann@forget-me.net> References: <200409222346.12315.yann@forget-me.net> Message-ID: <41522522.6010003@physics.unimelb.edu.au> Yann Forget wrote: > Hi, > > Mandrakesoft, the company which created and sells the Linux > distribution, is interested to distribute a DVD with an English and > French version of Wikipedia. This DVD will be sold in their web site > and included with the next distribution, due in next April. That's all very interesting, but did you have to tell me about it FIVE TIMES??? Please follow up to wikipedia-l. -- Tim Starling From brion at pobox.com Thu Sep 23 01:26:48 2004 From: brion at pobox.com (Brion Vibber) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:26:48 -0700 Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040922183228.0264fd70@shawmail> References: <200409222346.12315.yann@forget-me.net> <200409222346.12315.yann@forget-me.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20040922183228.0264fd70@shawmail> Message-ID: On Sep 22, 2004, at 6:40 PM, Bryan Derksen wrote: > My impression was that this isn't going to be a "reviewed" 1.0-style > Wikipedia, but rather a plain old snapshot that's had all the images > lacking the correct licencing tags automatically stripped out, and > possibly the articles with {{stub}} in them stripped out as well > (personally I think stubs should be left in, but IMO it's probably not > a major issue either way). The downside of this approach is that it's > bound to catch a few articles in a "bad" state, but the upside is that > it will actually be possible to do it in the timeframe needed. Certainly we could give them a stripped dump in that timeframe, but I think they'd be wasting a lot of money pressing it to disc in that state. I can't support this as described. -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PGP.sig Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 186 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20040922/9eb12356/attachment.pgp From anthere9 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 23 04:30:51 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 06:30:51 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Partnership with Mandrakesoft References: <9HO2gV$xpVB@erik_moeller> <4152038B.7010801@hackish.org> Message-ID: <4152517B.3080607@yahoo.com> Delirium a ?crit: > Erik Moeller wrote: > >> Am I the only one who is worried about this? >> >> > Probably not--I think a good first step would be to contact someone > appropriate at MandrakeSoft and see if they really know what they're > getting into. When they say they're willing to take the legal risk, do > they know that there is a non-negligible chance that there are > copyrighted materials in there somewhere? Or are they only thinking > about libel/etc.? It's possible they're familiar with Wikipedia and > already know all this, but someone should find out. The discussion with Mandrakesoft has been ongoing for perhaps 2 months. Yann is the primary contact with them, and he explained all that with them. The board has been in copy of most of the mails, and Angela is the primary contact for this whole topic. So, possibly, the first good step to do was already done, and it is not necessarily to find someone to check out if they already know about this. If Yann is announcing this for you, it is because the deal is now public, not because the deal was just suggested yesterday. The french wikipedia has been labelling all its pictures during summer for that perspective, and it was strongly suggested that en does the same as well. ant From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 06:59:28 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 02:59:28 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <4152517B.3080607@yahoo.com> References: <9HO2gV$xpVB@erik_moeller> <4152038B.7010801@hackish.org> <4152517B.3080607@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <742dfd06040922235938c4ee42@mail.gmail.com> > The french > wikipedia has been labelling all its pictures during summer for that > perspective, and it was strongly suggested that en does the same as well. See for instance http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Image tagging -- +sj+ From jwales at wikia.com Thu Sep 23 09:08:15 2004 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 02:08:15 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <9HO2gV$xpVB@erik_moeller> References: <200409222346.12315.yann@forget-me.net> <9HO2gV$xpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <20040923090815.GI22361@wikia.com> Erik Moeller wrote: > Am I the only one who is worried about this? I strongly share your worries. --Jimbo From jwales at wikia.com Thu Sep 23 09:09:44 2004 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 02:09:44 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <4152038B.7010801@hackish.org> References: <9HO2gV$xpVB@erik_moeller> <4152038B.7010801@hackish.org> Message-ID: <20040923090944.GJ22361@wikia.com> Delirium wrote: > Probably not--I think a good first step would be to contact someone > appropriate at MandrakeSoft and see if they really know what they're > getting into. You probably aren't aware that formal talks have been going on for 2 months now. This wasn't just suggested yesterday, there has been substantial communication. --Jimbo From beesley at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 11:39:37 2004 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 12:39:37 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <20040923090944.GJ22361@wikia.com> References: <9HO2gV$xpVB@erik_moeller> <4152038B.7010801@hackish.org> <20040923090944.GJ22361@wikia.com> Message-ID: <8b722b800409230439847a50c@mail.gmail.com> Mandrakesoft are aware of our editing processes. They know what they are getting, and that the content has not been verified. They have agreed to take legal responsibility for this. Basically, the only changes we are making is to remove images tagged as fair use, unknown, unverified and other unsuitable ones. Since the image tagging efforts on the English Wikipedia are going fairly slowly, there may be a large number of untagged images would also need to be removed. The arguments over whether a Wikipedia DVD is going to be useful to people aren't really for us to decide. Mandrake obviously think people are interested in this, and if they turn out not to be because they can read it online, then we haven't lost anything. The chances are though that this will significantly increase the exposure of Wikipedia to a wider audience. Hopefully many of them will access it online, and even become editors themselves, but I don't think that detracts from the appeal of having a DVD published. This DVD production is in no way meant to deter people from the validation processes that are being proposed. Obviously these will be hugely beneficial for future distributions. However, it's also going to take a very long time before the product of such processes is ready, so distributing a non-validated version in advance of that is beneficial. No one is claiming this distribution is perfect, but as a snapshot of Wikipedia I feel it is valuable. It's great advertising for us, it's great as an early trial of distributing our content offline, and it's great for raising awareness of the need to tag images properly. I strongly encourage others to help with the tagging drive as there are still many untagged images that can not be distributed at this stage. I'd also like to thank the following people for taking in part in the recent drive to tag images. This is based on the recent changes to the lists of untagged images, and the list of participants at [[Wikipedia:Image copyright tags]], so I apologize in advance for anyone I've missed out: Yann, Jdforrester, Eugene van der Pijll, Tom-, Diberri, Rich Farmbrough, Gamaliel, Stan Shebs, Lupin, Sj, Blankfaze, Chmod007, GeneralPatton, Frecklefoot, Sunborn, Morven, ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason, Trilobite, Poccil, Morwen, Secretlondon, Anthony DiPierro, Imran, Maximus Rex, Flockmeal, Guanaco, and Frazzydee. Thanks also to Looxix for creating the lists of untagged images and everyone who has been doing the same task on the French Wikipedia. Please help with the tagging at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Yann/Untagged_Images and see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_and_Mandrakesoft for further information. Angela. From beesley at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 16:46:41 2004 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:46:41 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] BBC Go Digital Message-ID: <8b722b800409230946150f52e1@mail.gmail.com> BBC's "Go Digital" radio programme (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/1478157.stm), have contacted me about doing an interview for them. They would also like to speak to someone outside of Europe or the US. The interview will be focusing on the fact Wikipedia has just reached one million articles, and will have a global slant since the World Service program goes out worldwide. The interview could be by phone, or, preferably, in a studio if someone who lives near a BBC studio could be found. They are particularly looking for someone who is able to talk about the use of Wikipedia in their country, not only the editing of it. I don't know the exact date of when this will happen, but they are phoning me back to tomorrow hoping for a contact for the other part of the report. If anyone would be interested in being interviewed for this, please contact me as soon as possible. Thank you. Angela. From fredbaud at ctelco.net Thu Sep 23 17:01:59 2004 From: fredbaud at ctelco.net (Fred Bauder) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:01:59 -0600 Subject: [Foundation-l] BBC Go Digital In-Reply-To: <8b722b800409230946150f52e1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: You know it might be nice if someone from the Chinese Wikipedia could be interviewed in light of recent difficulties. Provided they know what they are getting into. Fred > From: Angela > Reply-To: Angela , Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List > > Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:46:41 +0100 > To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List > Subject: [Foundation-l] BBC Go Digital > > BBC's "Go Digital" radio programme > (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/1478157.stm), have contacted me > about doing an interview for them. They would also like to speak to > someone outside of Europe or the US. The interview will be focusing on > the fact Wikipedia has just reached one million articles, and will > have a global slant since the World Service program goes out > worldwide. The interview could be by phone, or, preferably, in a > studio if someone who lives near a BBC studio could be found. They are > particularly looking for someone who is able to talk about the use of > Wikipedia in their country, not only the editing of it. > > I don't know the exact date of when this will happen, but they are > phoning me back to tomorrow hoping for a contact for the other part of > the report. > > If anyone would be interested in being interviewed for this, please > contact me as soon as possible. > > Thank you. > > Angela. > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l From jean-christophe.chazalette at laposte.net Thu Sep 23 18:13:33 2004 From: jean-christophe.chazalette at laposte.net (Jean-Christophe Chazalette) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:13:33 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft References: <9HO2gV$xpVB@erik_moeller> <4152038B.7010801@hackish.org><20040923090944.GJ22361@wikia.com> <8b722b800409230439847a50c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001101c4a199$0ba70560$0200a8c0@jchristophe> Are we talking about a formal written contract or about an oral agreement ? Needless to say I strongly encourage a formal distribution deal, the transfer of responsibilty having quite a big potential of financial troubles (suing Wikimedia Foundation is not an opportunity because it is a Foundation and it has no significant financial background, this is not at all the same for MandrakeSoft ...). If needed, I'm willing to assess such a written contract. villy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angela" To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft Mandrakesoft are aware of our editing processes. They know what they are getting, and that the content has not been verified. They have agreed to take legal responsibility for this. Basically, the only changes we are making is to remove images tagged as fair use, unknown, unverified and other unsuitable ones. Since the image tagging efforts on the English Wikipedia are going fairly slowly, there may be a large number of untagged images would also need to be removed. The arguments over whether a Wikipedia DVD is going to be useful to people aren't really for us to decide. Mandrake obviously think people are interested in this, and if they turn out not to be because they can read it online, then we haven't lost anything. The chances are though that this will significantly increase the exposure of Wikipedia to a wider audience. Hopefully many of them will access it online, and even become editors themselves, but I don't think that detracts from the appeal of having a DVD published. This DVD production is in no way meant to deter people from the validation processes that are being proposed. Obviously these will be hugely beneficial for future distributions. However, it's also going to take a very long time before the product of such processes is ready, so distributing a non-validated version in advance of that is beneficial. No one is claiming this distribution is perfect, but as a snapshot of Wikipedia I feel it is valuable. It's great advertising for us, it's great as an early trial of distributing our content offline, and it's great for raising awareness of the need to tag images properly. I strongly encourage others to help with the tagging drive as there are still many untagged images that can not be distributed at this stage. I'd also like to thank the following people for taking in part in the recent drive to tag images. This is based on the recent changes to the lists of untagged images, and the list of participants at [[Wikipedia:Image copyright tags]], so I apologize in advance for anyone I've missed out: Yann, Jdforrester, Eugene van der Pijll, Tom-, Diberri, Rich Farmbrough, Gamaliel, Stan Shebs, Lupin, Sj, Blankfaze, Chmod007, GeneralPatton, Frecklefoot, Sunborn, Morven, ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason, Trilobite, Poccil, Morwen, Secretlondon, Anthony DiPierro, Imran, Maximus Rex, Flockmeal, Guanaco, and Frazzydee. Thanks also to Looxix for creating the lists of untagged images and everyone who has been doing the same task on the French Wikipedia. Please help with the tagging at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Yann/Untagged_Images and see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_and_Mandrakesoft for further information. Angela. _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l at wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l From rowan.collins at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 20:54:58 2004 From: rowan.collins at gmail.com (Rowan Collins) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 21:54:58 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] favicons In-Reply-To: <742dfd060409220042320796e5@mail.gmail.com> References: <20040922050342.GA14941@mongoose> <742dfd060409220042320796e5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9f02ca4c0409231354f126af2@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 03:42:05 -0400, Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote: > That's really cool. I would love to see different favicons, too... also for the > foundationwiki and wiktionary. Boy, how I hate that word "favicon"! Everything about it makes me cringe, from it's association with "favorites" to the way it sounds! Nice graphics, though, and a really good idea - it's one more helping hand to get the other parts of Wikimedia out from the shadow of Wikipedia. > On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 22:03:42 -0700, Joshua Swink wrote: > > I have made some simple ones for Meta, Wikibooks and Wikiquote, > > and was wondering if someone could put them on the wikis. They > > are at http://yath.phreadom.net/wikicons/. -- Rowan Collins BSc [IMSoP] From yann at forget-me.net Thu Sep 23 22:36:48 2004 From: yann at forget-me.net (Yann Forget) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 00:36:48 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <001101c4a199$0ba70560$0200a8c0@jchristophe> References: <9HO2gV$xpVB@erik_moeller> <8b722b800409230439847a50c@mail.gmail.com> <001101c4a199$0ba70560$0200a8c0@jchristophe> Message-ID: <200409240036.48781.yann@forget-me.net> Le Thursday 23 September 2004 20:13, Jean-Christophe Chazalette a ?crit : > Are we talking about a formal written contract or about an oral agreement ? > Needless to say I strongly encourage a formal distribution deal, the > transfer of responsibilty having quite a big potential of financial > troubles (suing Wikimedia Foundation is not an opportunity because it is a > Foundation and it has no significant financial background, this is not at > all the same for MandrakeSoft ...). If needed, I'm willing to assess such a > written contract. > > villy Thanks, Villy. I will need your help for drafting a notice. Yann -- http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux From erik_moeller at gmx.de Fri Sep 24 01:39:00 2004 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: 24 Sep 2004 03:39:00 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <8b722b800409230439847a50c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9HS3$2xxpVB@erik_moeller> Angela- > Mandrakesoft are aware of our editing processes. They know what they > are getting, and that the content has not been verified. They have > agreed to take legal responsibility for this. Well, we obviously can't stop them from doing it. As long as we've publicly and privately disclaimed liability, I think we're reasonably safe from a legal position. But please do not underestimate the legal mess they could get into. It's not just image tagging. It's quite likely that there are at least a few hundred undetected copyvios on en: and fr:, from books, unindexed websites, closed electronic archives, newspaper articles, magazines, journals, and so forth, and probably even quite a few Google- indexed pages or articles which contain small fragments thereof. This is not because people are malicious but because many people simply have no concept of copyright. It is a stupid idea to begin with, so it takes quite a while for people to grasp the notion that certain sequences of words can be owned. Even with people understanding the concept of IP in one context (music, movies) they often have difficulties translating it into other contexts (texts, images, recipes ..) Therefore, this: > It's great advertising for us, it's > great as an early trial of distributing our content offline, and it's > great for raising awareness of the need to tag images properly. seems a little too enthusiastic. "Raising awareness" is not always a good thing if it leads to lawsuits and headlines like "Wiki-fiddlers steal from many sources". Also, we are *aware* of the need to tag images properly. May I suggest that the board promote these two things to get the process into motion: 1) make open list of untagged images and announce properly on community portal and the like that all of these images which are not tagged by date N will be hidden 2) fix stupid upload form (They should happen at the same time.) Regards, Erik From maveric149 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 24 02:39:35 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 19:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <9HS3$2xxpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <20040924023935.34606.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Erik Moeller wrote: > 1) make open list of untagged images and announce properly on community > portal and the like that all of these images which are not tagged by date > N will be hidden > 2) fix stupid upload form > (They should happen at the same time.) I'm in 100% agreement with Erik on these points. I also do *not* want to see my favorite Linux distro get in trouble over this. But would it be possible to automatically exclude untagged images when the date arrives? Or would humans have to comment each out in wiki text? My understanding of the category system is that it is not yet up to task to do this type of thing. But things change so fast around here, I'm probably wrong on that point. Is so, please explain. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From eric at eric-poehlsen.de Fri Sep 24 03:47:22 2004 From: eric at eric-poehlsen.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Eric_P=F6hlsen?=) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 10:17:22 +0630 Subject: AW: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <9HS3$2xxpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <200409240449.i8O4nC7C023093@post.webmailer.de> > 2) fix stupid upload form > (They should happen at the same time.) I do not post often in this list, but just want to mention that discussions for a better uploadform were running for ages and nothing has happened yet :( From sheng.jiong at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 06:19:30 2004 From: sheng.jiong at gmail.com (Jiong Sheng) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 06:19:30 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] BBC Go Digital In-Reply-To: References: <8b722b800409230946150f52e1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8d1c75f50409232319677d8501@mail.gmail.com> This might not be a good idea. BBC is not deemed as "friendly" by the Chinese government: its Chinese website is already blocked for years (maybe since its existence). This could only get things worse. On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:01:59 -0600, Fred Bauder wrote: > You know it might be nice if someone from the Chinese Wikipedia could be > interviewed in light of recent difficulties. Provided they know what they > are getting into. > From andrew.lih at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 06:35:29 2004 From: andrew.lih at gmail.com (Andrew Lih) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 14:35:29 +0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] BBC Go Digital In-Reply-To: <8d1c75f50409232319677d8501@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b800409230946150f52e1@mail.gmail.com> <8d1c75f50409232319677d8501@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ed171fb04092323353e67add3@mail.gmail.com> I agree - I don't think talking about the inaccessibility of WP in any significant way is prudent either. If they want to talk about users outside US and Europe, that's one thing. But it's still to early to tell what's going on with the access/block issue. -Andrew On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 06:19:30 +0000, Jiong Sheng wrote: > This might not be a good idea. BBC is not deemed as "friendly" by the > Chinese government: its Chinese website is already blocked for years > (maybe since its existence). This could only get things worse. > > > > On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:01:59 -0600, Fred Bauder wrote: > > You know it might be nice if someone from the Chinese Wikipedia could be > > interviewed in light of recent difficulties. Provided they know what they > > are getting into. > > > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > -- Andrew Lih andrew.lih at gmail.com From fredbaud at ctelco.net Fri Sep 24 11:16:10 2004 From: fredbaud at ctelco.net (Fred Bauder) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 05:16:10 -0600 Subject: [Foundation-l] BBC Go Digital In-Reply-To: <8d1c75f50409232319677d8501@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I guess this is a dead end. I assumed they probably had people in Beijing, as the New York Times does and that they had a reasonable working relationship with the government. Fred > From: Jiong Sheng > Reply-To: Jiong Sheng , Wikimedia Foundation Mailing > List > Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 06:19:30 +0000 > To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] BBC Go Digital > > This might not be a good idea. BBC is not deemed as "friendly" by the > Chinese government: its Chinese website is already blocked for years > (maybe since its existence). This could only get things worse. > > On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:01:59 -0600, Fred Bauder wrote: >> You know it might be nice if someone from the Chinese Wikipedia could be >> interviewed in light of recent difficulties. Provided they know what they >> are getting into. >> > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l From erik_moeller at gmx.de Fri Sep 24 20:11:00 2004 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: 24 Sep 2004 22:11:00 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Excellent work on newsletter Message-ID: <9HS41iLxpVB@erik_moeller> I'd just like to say that the first Wikimedia Quarto newsletter is very nicely done: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Quarto/0409/En-1 The use of images is just a little bit too random for my taste, but the content and organization are excellent. Kudos to everyone involved. Regards, Erik From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 20:34:34 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 16:34:34 -0400 Subject: AW: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <200409240449.i8O4nC7C023093@post.webmailer.de> References: <9HS3$2xxpVB@erik_moeller> <200409240449.i8O4nC7C023093@post.webmailer.de> Message-ID: <742dfd0604092413341aa12361@mail.gmail.com> Yes, this has certainly been discussed for a long time... Most recently, Sansculotte produced a nicely detailed set of pages based on an older mockup of Erik's for a new upload form. The important text for those pages has been translated already; but that's the easy part compared to actually implementing it. http://www.ru-info.de/upload_neu.htm http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/New_upload_form --Sj On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 10:17:22 +0630, Eric P?hlsen wrote: > > 2) fix stupid upload form > > (They should happen at the same time.) > > I do not post often in this list, but just want to mention that discussions > for a better uploadform were running for ages and nothing has happened yet > :( From ropers at ropersonline.com Fri Sep 24 20:48:40 2004 From: ropers at ropersonline.com (Jens Ropers) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 22:48:40 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Excellent work on newsletter In-Reply-To: <9HS41iLxpVB@erik_moeller> References: <9HS41iLxpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <1DD8B739-0E6B-11D9-B139-0003931DCE20@ropersonline.com> Can this be made available via email as well, same as with Featured Articles? -- ropers On 24 Sep 2004, at 22:11, Erik Moeller wrote: > I'd just like to say that the first Wikimedia Quarto newsletter is very > nicely done: > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Quarto/0409/En-1 > > The use of images is just a little bit too random for my taste, but the > content and organization are excellent. Kudos to everyone involved. > > Regards, > > Erik From ropers at ropersonline.com Fri Sep 24 21:13:57 2004 From: ropers at ropersonline.com (Jens Ropers) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 23:13:57 +0200 Subject: AW: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <742dfd0604092413341aa12361@mail.gmail.com> References: <9HS3$2xxpVB@erik_moeller> <200409240449.i8O4nC7C023093@post.webmailer.de> <742dfd0604092413341aa12361@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: May I STRONGLY suggest that we include ALL the other depreciated image tags as well? Rationale: Migrating from the current technical possibility not to include ANY tag/description while uploading directly to the limited choice of tags as per the below mockup link would be too big of a change for many users, who will feel--wrong as they might be--that their images "have to be included". This will lead to many folks picking "unknown/don't know" (unbekannt/weiss nicht) -- and practically having no license tags is ACUTELY worse than having depreciated license tags. We should have MORE metadata, not less of it. Having "depreciated license"-images in there (marked as depreciated) is A LOT better because we can always deal with these pics and/or that entire category later and we'll at least know where things are at as regards these pics. We WON'T know that in case of "unknown/don't know" -- these would just be a wild heap of wildly unknown stuff, making it acutely harder to deal with in the future. On 24 Sep 2004, at 22:34, Sj wrote: > > > new upload form. The > important text for those pages > has been translated already; but that's the easy part compared to > actually implementing it. > > http://www.ru-info.de/upload_neu.htm > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/New_upload_form > > --Sj > > On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 10:17:22 +0630, Eric P?hlsen > wrote: >>> 2) fix stupid upload form From beesley at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 21:54:06 2004 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 22:54:06 +0100 Subject: AW: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: References: <9HS3$2xxpVB@erik_moeller> <200409240449.i8O4nC7C023093@post.webmailer.de> <742dfd0604092413341aa12361@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8b722b800409241454270956e8@mail.gmail.com> I don't think I understand your point since there is absolutely no reason for people to be uploading new images with deprecated licence tags. "Unknown" is not an option. If you don't know the licence, simply do not upload it. Such images will be deleted via the new process at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Possibly_unfree_images The new upload form will not apply to existing images. Those are being dealt with via the tagging drive at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Yann/Untagged_Images Angela. On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 23:13:57 +0200, Jens Ropers wrote: > May I STRONGLY suggest that we include ALL the other depreciated image > tags as well? > > Rationale: > Migrating from the current technical possibility not to include ANY > tag/description while uploading directly to the limited choice of tags > as per the below mockup link would be too big of a change for many > users, who will feel--wrong as they might be--that their images "have > to be included". This will lead to many folks picking "unknown/don't > know" (unbekannt/weiss nicht) -- and practically having no license tags > is ACUTELY worse than having depreciated license tags. We should have > MORE metadata, not less of it. Having "depreciated license"-images in > there (marked as depreciated) is A LOT better because we can always > deal with these pics and/or that entire category later and we'll at > least know where things are at as regards these pics. We WON'T know > that in case of "unknown/don't know" -- these would just be a wild heap > of wildly unknown stuff, making it acutely harder to deal with in the > future. From beesley at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 21:56:57 2004 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 22:56:57 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Excellent work on newsletter In-Reply-To: <1DD8B739-0E6B-11D9-B139-0003931DCE20@ropersonline.com> References: <9HS41iLxpVB@erik_moeller> <1DD8B739-0E6B-11D9-B139-0003931DCE20@ropersonline.com> Message-ID: <8b722b8004092414564ecd8c2b@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 22:48:40 +0200, Jens Ropers wrote: > Can this be made available via email as well, same as with Featured > Articles? The original aim of the newsletter was to send it out via email, possibly in a ready-to-print format. There will at some point be a mailing list in which people can sign up to receive the newsletter and other important Foundation announcements. Angela. From beesley at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 23:25:51 2004 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 00:25:51 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <9HS3$2xxpVB@erik_moeller> References: <8b722b800409230439847a50c@mail.gmail.com> <9HS3$2xxpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <8b722b8004092416257989dd7a@mail.gmail.com> Brion wrote: > Wikipedia is a very valuable resource, but it's a *dynamic* one. It's not dynamic for the majority of users. Most users of the site will simply read the article, and never edit it, regardless of how wrong it might be. Therefore, for everyone other than the editors of the site, a snapshot on DVD is no worse than the snapshot they see of the online Wikipedia. > There's a *lot* of crud in general. There will be mistakes. There will be falsehoods. There will be 'FUCKFUCKFUCK' vandalism. That's covered in the disclaimers. Not quite in those words though. ;) > And in six months when they go to press, the Wikipedia on the web will be much improved I don't see how this is an argument against a DVD version. The live website will always be better, and we will prominently link to it from any static version, but if the site is acceptable enough to allow the public to see it, why is a DVD not? Wikipedia is a useful resource, despite its shortcomings. It's not just some draft awaiting approval before publication. It is already being published, even if only online. The validation processes will improve Wikipedia, but they should not be force the current version to be seen as some second-class useless collection of articles that can't be distributed. Wikipedia is good enough to distribute now and the possibility of a better version in 6 months does not negate that. Erik wrote: > Well, we obviously can't stop them from doing it. As long as we've > publicly and privately disclaimed liability, I think we're reasonably safe > from a legal position. Villy is working on a formal contract with them, so the assurances they have given us informally will be put into writing. We can never guarantee our content will be entirely free from copyright violations and no amount of Google checking will solve that. The publishers will obviously need disclaimers, insurance, and an easy way of correcting this for future distributions. > 1) make open list of untagged images and announce properly on community > portal and the like that all of these images which are not tagged by date > N will be hidden There is a list at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Yann/Untagged_Images which has been advertised many times on the village pump, goings on, the mailing list and in the IRC channel topic. It's now on the portal as well. I don't think threatening to hide them will help since there is already the threat to delete them at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Possibly_unfree_images > 2) fix stupid upload form I strongly agree. Even the one currently on the test wiki at http://test.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Upload is better than the current one. Is there any reason the one at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Uploadform1.png can not be used? If it's nowhere near completion, perhaps the developer committee could consider putting a bounty on it? mav wrote: > But would it be possible to automatically exclude untagged images They will be excluded automatically from the DVD edition. I don't yet know how the captions will be hidden from articles in cases where the image doesn't exist. Angela. From brion at pobox.com Fri Sep 24 23:39:55 2004 From: brion at pobox.com (Brion Vibber) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 16:39:55 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <8b722b8004092416257989dd7a@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b800409230439847a50c@mail.gmail.com> <9HS3$2xxpVB@erik_moeller> <8b722b8004092416257989dd7a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <09BFAADF-0E83-11D9-B6DB-000A95DAA284@pobox.com> On Sep 24, 2004, at 4:25 PM, Angela wrote: >> 2) fix stupid upload form > > I strongly agree. Even the one currently on the test wiki at > http://test.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Upload is better than the > current one. Is there any reason the one at > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Uploadform1.png can not be used? It's just a mock-up. To the best of my knowledge no such form has been coded. > If it's nowhere near completion, perhaps the developer committee could > consider putting a bounty on it? As far as I know this is part of Erik's Commons proposal that's remained simply a proposal, with no code written. Erik, where are you on this? -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PGP.sig Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 186 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20040924/9ba0127f/attachment.pgp From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Sat Sep 25 00:49:13 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 20:49:13 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Excellent work on newsletter In-Reply-To: <9HS41iLxpVB@erik_moeller> References: <9HS41iLxpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <742dfd060409241749779f0121@mail.gmail.com> Thank you, Erik. Your thoughts on layout design for future editions would be most welcome. There will be a formal announcement about the newsletter at the end of this weekend, with more details (such as how to sign up to receive newsletters and updates via email). In the meantime, people who are interested in following its ongoing translation are encouraged to join the translators-l mailing list (see my next post). --Sj On 24 Sep 2004 22:11:00 +0200, Erik Moeller wrote: > I'd just like to say that the first Wikimedia Quarto newsletter is very > nicely done: > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Quarto/0409/En-1 > > The use of images is just a little bit too random for my taste, but the > content and organization are excellent. Kudos to everyone involved. > > Regards, > > Erik From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Sat Sep 25 01:09:07 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 21:09:07 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] New mailing list for translators Message-ID: <742dfd0604092418095028ab1a@mail.gmail.com> A new multilingual mailing list has been set up for people interested in translations of wikimedia content. You can sign up here : http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l The list will announce new content for translation as soon as it is created, and provide a place to talk about the progress of translations. New content includes new Mediawiki: messages and sitewide notices, and important changes to pages on the wikimediafoundation site. --SJ From elian at djini.de Sat Sep 25 01:32:06 2004 From: elian at djini.de (Elisabeth Bauer) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 03:32:06 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <8b722b8004092416257989dd7a@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b800409230439847a50c@mail.gmail.com> <9HS3$2xxpVB@erik_moeller> <8b722b8004092416257989dd7a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4154CA96.7070707@djini.de> Angela wrote: > Brion wrote: >>There's a *lot* of crud in general. There will be mistakes. There will >>be falsehoods. There will be 'FUCKFUCKFUCK' vandalism. > > That's covered in the disclaimers. Not quite in those words though. ;) A cd-edition of the german wikipedia is currently produced. Before we gave the data away, I did a fulltext search on several terms like this - I didn't get any results ;-) greetings, elian From beesley at gmail.com Sat Sep 25 02:03:02 2004 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 03:03:02 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikipeople Message-ID: <8b722b80040924190318461310@mail.gmail.com> After discussing the creation of Wikipeople on IRC this evening, I am no longer convinced that there is a consensus about what the proposed project is supposed to be. Personally, I had thought it was supposed to take over what is currently the September 11 memorial wiki, but perhaps I was mistaken about that being its aim due to the fact the discussion of Wikipeople started out at the Wikimorial page on Meta. I think a lot of questions need answering before the project can be created. For example: 1 Should this project exist? 2 Should the current Sep11 wiki articles be moved here? 3 Should the Sep11 wiki be removed and redirected to Wikipeople? 4 Should the creation of this project wait until a Wikidata structure exists? 5 Should Wikidata be a project that can hold both Wikipeople and Wikispecies? 6 Should this be a project in its own right with no links to Sep11 wiki or Wikispecies? 7 Which domain should be used? If anyone has opinions on the above points, please make them at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikipeople so that an informed decision can be made about whether to create this project and what its aim is supposed to be. Thanks. Angela. From saintonge at telus.net Sat Sep 25 06:46:14 2004 From: saintonge at telus.net (Ray Saintonge) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 23:46:14 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <4154CA96.7070707@djini.de> References: <8b722b800409230439847a50c@mail.gmail.com> <9HS3$2xxpVB@erik_moeller> <8b722b8004092416257989dd7a@mail.gmail.com> <4154CA96.7070707@djini.de> Message-ID: <41551436.10003@telus.net> Elisabeth Bauer wrote: > Angela wrote: > >> Brion wrote: > >>> There's a *lot* of crud in general. There will be mistakes. There will >>> be falsehoods. There will be 'FUCKFUCKFUCK' vandalism. >> >> That's covered in the disclaimers. Not quite in those words though. ;) > > A cd-edition of the german wikipedia is currently produced. Before we > gave the data away, I did a fulltext search on several terms like this > - I didn't get any results ;-) Is the search function currently picking up the offending term when it is buried in a would-be 12-letter word as in the example? Ec From erik_moeller at gmx.de Sat Sep 25 08:29:00 2004 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: 25 Sep 2004 10:29:00 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <09BFAADF-0E83-11D9-B6DB-000A95DAA284@pobox.com> Message-ID: <9HW4OrFxpVB@erik_moeller> Brion- > As far as I know this is part of Erik's Commons proposal that's > remained simply a proposal, with no code written. Erik, where are you > on this? My final deadline for my book is Sep. 30, after which point I have more time for Wikimedia issues. The Commons code is one of the things I'd like to start working on then. However, I'd have no problem working on the basis of a slightly improved standard upload form, e.g. one using a to provide a list of licenses and generating {{FDL}}, {{PD}} etc. based on that. That would already be a great step forward. Regards, Erik From brion at pobox.com Sat Sep 25 09:51:18 2004 From: brion at pobox.com (Brion Vibber) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 02:51:18 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <9HW4OrFxpVB@erik_moeller> References: <9HW4OrFxpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <729C2E83-0ED8-11D9-8440-000A95DAA284@pobox.com> On Sep 25, 2004, at 1:29 AM, Erik Moeller wrote: > Brion- >> As far as I know this is part of Erik's Commons proposal that's >> remained simply a proposal, with no code written. Erik, where are you >> on this? > > My final deadline for my book is Sep. 30, after which point I have more > time for Wikimedia issues. The Commons code is one of the things I'd > like > to start working on then. However, I'd have no problem working on the > basis of a slightly improved standard upload form, e.g. one using a > to provide a list of licenses and generating {{FDL}}, > {{PD}} > etc. based on that. That would already be a great step forward. Spiffy, thanks. -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PGP.sig Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 186 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20040925/81cb1652/attachment.pgp From anthonydipierro at hotmail.com Sat Sep 25 21:28:56 2004 From: anthonydipierro at hotmail.com (Anthony DiPierro) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 17:28:56 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikipeople Message-ID: Well, here are my answers re wikipeople. 1 Should this project exist? If there are people who want it, I don't see why not. 2 Should the current Sep11 wiki articles be moved here? This is a question which should be determined by the people who use the wiki. 3 Should the Sep11 wiki be removed and redirected to Wikipeople? That should be up to the people who use the sep11 wiki. 4 Should the creation of this project wait until a Wikidata structure exists? I've never heard of Wikidata, so no. 5 Should Wikidata be a project that can hold both Wikipeople and Wikispecies? Definitely not. Wikispecies and Wikipeople are completely different projects created for completely different reasons. Wikispecies is supposed to be a language neutral subset of Wikipedia. Wikipeople is largely supposed to be for information not in Wikipedia. 6 Should this be a project in its own right with no links to Sep11 wiki or Wikispecies? Certainly. 7 Which domain should be used? If we own wikipeople.org, that would be the best. Anthony From erik_moeller at gmx.de Sun Sep 26 03:58:00 2004 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: 26 Sep 2004 05:58:00 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Quick thoughts on fundraising Message-ID: <9H$4w7jxpVB@erik_moeller> Donations are still coming in, but not at a very high rate. We can probably make the $50K goal, but we should still consider how to make our fundraising campaign more effective. One as of yet unanswered question is how many subscriptions we will get because of this campaign, which may well play a substantial role in supporting us in the long run. However, from cursory checks, the subscription rate appeared to be fairly low. I have studied online fundraising campaigns a bit. Here are some quick thoughts. Some of these things can be done right now, some require technical changes. 1) Real-time updates. We now do manual updates within regular intervals, which is good, but real-time updates generate TV-like excitement. Kuro5hin.org raised $35K in a few days using a realtime-updated progress- bar shown on every change. (K5 is much, much smaller than we are, but of course there's the added novelty effect when they did it.) This can be combined with.. 2) Immediately visible donation comments, increasing the community feel. 3) Progress-meter and PayPal link must be visible on every page, not just a separate page, i.e. like this: [==================== ] $50K Last 5 comments Wikipedia rocks! Donate [10 ] [^ EUR] [ via PayPal ] [Go] Keep it coming .. ... (You are using a non-proportional email font, right?) Note that this example includes all the form elements to make a donation with one click, with a reasonable value prefilled into the entry field. This is essential - click-through forms result in hesitation and second thoughts, and then there is the essential laziness of the web surfing process. Also, people like to click on buttons. This will take up a fair bit of screen estate, which is annoying, but I consider it necessary. We can still support turning it off via CSS, but for the duration of the campaign, we really need to grab people's attention. For extra funkiness, one could us something like mod_pubsub: http://www.mod-pubsub.org/ to do actual *real-time* real-time updates, i.e. the bar moves and comments come in even as you stay on one page. This would probably be best reserved for a separate fundraising page, though. 4) Make the form/progressbar available to external sites - if we have real-time updates, we should try to make it reasonably easy to include a graphical bar + donation form elements in your blog, on your personal homepage etc. This way we can get the whole blogosphere involved in the fundraising process. 5) Surprises - to keep the campaign exciting, surprises could be unveiled at certain milestones: articles, images, links, anything. Or maybe a "Meet the Wikimedians" series where different Wikimedia users are introduced every $1000. I'm sure we can come up with lots of ideas. Effectively, the fundraising camapign itself has to be so interesting that people will want to check it at least once daily, if not multiple times. This worked very well for the Dean campaign where they had an ongoing blog that tied directly into the fundraisers. 6) E-mail - the Dean campaign also used a huge list of email addresses for fundraising alerts. This of course has to be strictly opt-in, but could have an additional outreach effect. I'm reluctant to propose other mechanisms used by the Dean campaign, such as affiliate donation boxes on user pages, because I don't think we should target the Wikimedia contributor community too much. --- Caveat: We are in the position where the people who *should* support us often don't know who we are. They may only have a vague idea what Wikipedia is based on reading Wikipedia articles from various mirrors and occasionally from our site - they may consider us equivalentto fact-index.com, thefreedictionary.com etc. They may be just as willing to donate to these sites as to us. The people who are most targeted by any fundraising campaign are unfortunately our regular contributors, because they generate many pageviews. How to solve this dilemma? Ideas: * Give signed in users a convenient [hide] link for obnoxious fundraising headers * Raise awareness of the Wikipedia brand by - more strictly enforcing the GFDL - petitioning Google (first privately, then publicly) to give us better treatment, since we are the original source - creating an official Wikimedia affiliate program for mirrors, which would include some logos etc. to make people more aware that articles are from Wikipedia -- in return, give member sites easier ways to update their database --- Technical notes: Real-time stuff of course makes caching harder. However, using Edge Side Includes (ESI), we should be able to mark-up only the relevant part of the page as dynamic, and cache the rest. Existing code: This Drupal module contains some PHP code on PayPal IPN handling that may be useful: http://drupal.org/project/paypal_framework - - - - - - - - Now, one might make an argument that unobtrusive ads are preferable over frequent obtrusive donation campaigns. Right now I have no strong opinion either way, but based on the data available to me, I believe that a high- profile fundraising campaign could be over fairly quickly with high returns. One big problem this year is of course that it's a hotly contested US election, so many Americans have given hundreds of dollars already and don't have much money to spare for things like Wikimedia. We should consider this a good thing, because we need to put our donation model to the test properly, and this is a good opportunity to do so. Oh, and we of course need to still go for the big money in the form of institutional grants and corporate donations. The collaborative volunteer model may not be good enough here - it's fairly meticulous work where it's often a good idea to have one person on the job. Paying someone a couple grand to do this properly may provide huge returns that make our $50K campaign pale in comparison. Apologies if I've missed previous discussions on these matters - as ever so often, I'm just throwing ideas out there in the hope of contributing to finding better solutions. A final suggestion that Anthere should like: I believe that after the fundraising campaign, we should do an international poll among Wikimedians to figure out - why they donated, if they did - why they didn't donate, if they didn't - whether they told anyone else about the campaign etc. Regards, Erik From daniwo59 at aol.com Sun Sep 26 04:00:53 2004 From: daniwo59 at aol.com (daniwo59 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 00:00:53 EDT Subject: [Foundation-l] Quick thoughts on fundraising Message-ID: <1b8.272dcd9.2e8798f5@aol.com> I just wanted to add that I like all of Erik's ideas. One more thing I would like to see is how much we are earning in subscriptions, so that we can expect income monthly. Have we passed $1000 a month yet? $5,000? Danny From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 26 05:34:44 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 22:34:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Quick thoughts on fundraising In-Reply-To: <1b8.272dcd9.2e8798f5@aol.com> Message-ID: <20040926053444.27506.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> --- daniwo59 at aol.com wrote: > I just wanted to add that I like all of Erik's ideas. One more thing I would > like to see is how much we are earning in subscriptions, so that we can > expect income monthly. Have we passed $1000 a month yet? $5,000? Only 45 subscriptions set-up so far (linking contributing membership to that and sending people wampum - t-shirts, mugs, mouse pads, etc - for donating at certain levels will increase that). Counting both monthly and yearly/12 we can expect to gross: 257.50 US dollars per month + 26 pounds (46.92 USD) per month + 52 euro (63.82 USD) per month = 373.24 USD per month* *PayPal data only (I'm not sure if Moneybookers allows for subscription payments...). Daniel Mayer, Wikimedia CFO __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 26 05:51:07 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 22:51:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Quick thoughts on fundraising In-Reply-To: <9H$4w7jxpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <20040926055107.82076.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Erik Moeller wrote: > [many good things] With the exception of the idea of paying a grant admin (which is a role I would like to see us try to have done via volunteer time - at least for now - temporary consultant work is OK though), I really can't recall a single thing you suggested that I don't agree with. In fact I would very much so like to see most of it happen. The real big issue now is that somebody is going to have to code a bot to fetch and parse the PayPal data. A mechanism would also need to be added to the bot whereby Moneybookers and mail donation could be periodically added to the totals via human input (I'm not aware of a read only account access option for Moneybookers and I would never trust full access to any of our accounts to a bot). -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav) PS - could you add your ideas to [[m:fundraising ideas]]? http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_ideas __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From delirium at hackish.org Sun Sep 26 09:50:28 2004 From: delirium at hackish.org (Delirium) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 05:50:28 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Quick thoughts on fundraising In-Reply-To: <9H$4w7jxpVB@erik_moeller> References: <9H$4w7jxpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <415690E4.7000502@hackish.org> Erik Moeller wrote: >Now, one might make an argument that unobtrusive ads are preferable over >frequent obtrusive donation campaigns. Right now I have no strong opinion >either way, but based on the data available to me, I believe that a high- >profile fundraising campaign could be over fairly quickly with high >returns. > > I can't make any claims to be a representative user, but I personally find these sorts of things *really* annoying. When I'm trying to read an encyclopedia article, I don't want a "give us money!" link at the top, especially one with exclamation marks in it! If it were some sort of big bar thing, that'd be so much the worse, especially since it doesn't go away when I actually *do* give money. Letting me hide them would be nice. I also think if these things become a regular occurance, you're going to see the donations rate get lower each time. People are wiling to donate rapidly for exceptional circumstances (like the k5 fundraiser, or the first Wikimedia fundraiser), but using them as a normal revenue stream doesn't sound that promising, imo, since it makes it sound like we're perpetually doing "emergency" fundraising, which starts to sound like "crying wolf" after a while. -Mark From daniwo59 at aol.com Sun Sep 26 14:25:03 2004 From: daniwo59 at aol.com (daniwo59 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 10:25:03 EDT Subject: [Foundation-l] Quick thoughts on fundraising Message-ID: <1a6.296b3bd2.2e882b3f@aol.com> Thanks for the information. I think we should spend more effort on getting those monthly donations, which will be very useful to maintaining the running costs. Can we, in this final week of the fundraising drive, set a goal, even minimal, of $1,000 per month? Danny From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 26 17:01:03 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 10:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Quick thoughts on fundraising In-Reply-To: <1a6.296b3bd2.2e882b3f@aol.com> Message-ID: <20040926170103.93077.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> --- daniwo59 at aol.com wrote: > Thanks for the information. I think we should spend more effort on getting > those monthly donations, which will be very useful to maintaining the running costs. I completely agree. >Can we, in this final week of the fundraising drive, set a > goal, even minimal, of $1,000 per month? I think we should first directly link donations to contributing membership and set up ways for donors, if they don't opt out, to receive wampum if they donate at certain levels. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 26 17:12:51 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 10:12:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Quick thoughts on fundraising In-Reply-To: <415690E4.7000502@hackish.org> Message-ID: <20040926171251.69746.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Delirium wrote: > I can't make any claims to be a representative user, but I personally > find these sorts of things *really* annoying. When I'm trying to read > an encyclopedia article, I don't want a "give us money!" link at the > top, especially one with exclamation marks in it! If it were some sort > of big bar thing, that'd be so much the worse, especially since it > doesn't go away when I actually *do* give money. Letting me hide them > would be nice. Slashdot allows subscribers to turn off advertisements. Perhaps we could do the same thing except for donation notices? A skyscrapper donation button might work best since it allows the article content to be higher. I still am not gun-ho for such a thing, but I would not oppose it. > I also think if these things become a regular occurance, you're going to > see the donations rate get lower each time. People are wiling to donate > rapidly for exceptional circumstances (like the k5 fundraiser, or the > first Wikimedia fundraiser), but using them as a normal revenue stream > doesn't sound that promising, imo, since it makes it sound like we're > perpetually doing "emergency" fundraising, which starts to sound like > "crying wolf" after a while. Non-profits very regularly have fund drives and very regularly bring in millions of dollars. The National Public Radio Station in my area brings in over a million dollars from listeners each year and their listenership is much less than our readership. So I don't see any logic in your statement. This is also *not* emergency funding. We are starting to move away from that and move toward a more regular fund drive cycle (I would like one each quarter in order to more cleanly meet budgetary goals - which will also be tracked by quarter). -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From kissall at gmail.com Sun Sep 26 17:18:23 2004 From: kissall at gmail.com (Kiss All) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 12:18:23 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikipeople In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <384f6ad404092610182e9b0afa@mail.gmail.com> I don't see the necessity for a separate project for people in wiki. The existing user page is quite enough. We may add a new page gathering the user information better. On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 17:28:56 -0400, Anthony DiPierro wrote: > Well, here are my answers re wikipeople. > > 1 Should this project exist? > If there are people who want it, I don't see why not. > > 2 Should the current Sep11 wiki articles be moved here? > This is a question which should be determined by the people who use the > wiki. > > 3 Should the Sep11 wiki be removed and redirected to Wikipeople? > That should be up to the people who use the sep11 wiki. > > 4 Should the creation of this project wait until a Wikidata structure > exists? > I've never heard of Wikidata, so no. > > 5 Should Wikidata be a project that can hold both Wikipeople and > Wikispecies? > Definitely not. Wikispecies and Wikipeople are completely different > projects created for completely different reasons. Wikispecies is supposed > to be a language neutral subset of Wikipedia. Wikipeople is largely > supposed to be for information not in Wikipedia. > > 6 Should this be a project in its own right with no links to Sep11 wiki or > Wikispecies? > Certainly. > > 7 Which domain should be used? > If we own wikipeople.org, that would be the best. > > Anthony > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > -- Be good.... From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 26 17:20:49 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 10:20:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikipeople In-Reply-To: <384f6ad404092610182e9b0afa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040926172049.47691.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kiss All wrote: > I don't see the necessity for a separate project for people in wiki. > The existing user page is quite enough. We may add a new page > gathering the user information better. User pages for dead people? You can't build a genealogy database from that! :) --mav _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From anthere9 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 27 00:05:44 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 02:05:44 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Quick thoughts on fundraising References: <9H$4w7jxpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <41575958.8080508@yahoo.com> Erik Moeller a ?crit: Many suggestions, that I hope you would put on meta as well. > 6) E-mail - the Dean campaign also used a huge list of email addresses for > fundraising alerts. This of course has to be strictly opt-in, but could > have an additional outreach effect. Warning, sollicitations could have an adverse effect. > Caveat: > > We are in the position where the people who *should* support us often > don't know who we are. They may only have a vague idea what Wikipedia is > based on reading Wikipedia articles from various mirrors and occasionally > from our site - they may consider us equivalentto fact-index.com, > thefreedictionary.com etc. They may be just as willing to donate to these > sites as to us. Partially, the newsletter was also meant to adress a bit this issue. It cant do it all of course, but it could help with the regular donnors. > The people who are most targeted by any fundraising campaign are > unfortunately our regular contributors, because they generate many > pageviews. How to solve this dilemma? Ideas: > > * Give signed in users a convenient [hide] link for obnoxious fundraising > headers Some french did this in another way. They changed their css not to see the sitenotice any more ... > One big problem this year is of course that it's a hotly contested US > election, so many Americans have given hundreds of dollars already and > don't have much money to spare for things like Wikimedia. We should > consider this a good thing, because we need to put our donation model to > the test properly, and this is a good opportunity to do so. Hmmmmm. We tried to adress this issue by translating many of the donation pages. I am not sure it is a good idea to consider this a *big* issue, because I am not sure it is a good idea to make it clear that most donations are US ones. Perhaps Mav could clarify this ? > Oh, and we of course need to still go for the big money in the form of > institutional grants and corporate donations. The collaborative volunteer > model may not be good enough here - it's fairly meticulous work where it's > often a good idea to have one person on the job. Paying someone a couple > grand to do this properly may provide huge returns that make our $50K > campaign pale in comparison. > > Apologies if I've missed previous discussions on these matters - as ever > so often, I'm just throwing ideas out there in the hope of contributing to > finding better solutions. > > A final suggestion that Anthere should like: I believe that after the > fundraising campaign, we should do an international poll among Wikimedians > to figure out > - why they donated, if they did > - why they didn't donate, if they didn't > - whether they told anyone else about the campaign > etc. > > Regards, > > Erik Hmmmmm. I mentionned on fr that Aurevilly has been the first donator of this campaign. Comments I got mentionned that having such an information public was forcing a hierarchy among editors, by insisting on those giving money compared to those not giving. With such a reaction, I believe such a poll should only be "anonymous" :-) From delirium at hackish.org Mon Sep 27 01:47:04 2004 From: delirium at hackish.org (Delirium) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 21:47:04 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Quick thoughts on fundraising In-Reply-To: <20040926171251.69746.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040926171251.69746.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41577118.9040903@hackish.org> Daniel Mayer wrote: >--- Delirium wrote: > > >>I can't make any claims to be a representative user, but I personally >>find these sorts of things *really* annoying. When I'm trying to read >>an encyclopedia article, I don't want a "give us money!" link at the >>top, especially one with exclamation marks in it! If it were some sort >>of big bar thing, that'd be so much the worse, especially since it >>doesn't go away when I actually *do* give money. Letting me hide them >>would be nice. >> >> > >Slashdot allows subscribers to turn off advertisements. Perhaps we could do the same thing except for donation notices? > I'd rather it let me turn them off regardless of subscription status---if I subscribe it will be a voluntary donation to help Wikimedia because I feel it deserves my money. Trying to annoy me into giving money is irritating, because I'm *already* donating my time to help create this encyclopedia. If I want to donate money as well, or don't want to, that's my business, but it's certainly not money Wikimedia "deserves", given that they're not paying me for my content. -Mark From wikipedia at earthlink.net Mon Sep 27 03:33:28 2004 From: wikipedia at earthlink.net (Michael Snow) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 20:33:28 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Quick thoughts on fundraising In-Reply-To: <20040927014657.758391AC0527@mail.wikimedia.org> References: <20040927014657.758391AC0527@mail.wikimedia.org> Message-ID: <41578A08.9000608@earthlink.net> Daniel Mayer wrote: >Only 45 subscriptions set-up so far (linking contributing membership to that >and sending people wampum - t-shirts, mugs, mouse pads, etc - for donating at >certain levels will increase that). > >Counting both monthly and yearly/12 we can expect to gross: > >373.24 USD per month* > This is actually already a solid accomplishment - that total is almost as much as what total monthly donations amounted to earlier this year, when fundraising was at its lowest ebb. Naturally, I hope this will continue to increase. --Michael Snow From maveric149 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 27 04:01:43 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 21:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Quick thoughts on fundraising In-Reply-To: <41577118.9040903@hackish.org> Message-ID: <20040927040143.46261.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Delirium wrote: > I'd rather it let me turn them off regardless of subscription > status---if I subscribe it will be a voluntary donation to help > Wikimedia because I feel it deserves my money. Trying to annoy me into > giving money is irritating, because I'm *already* donating my time to > help create this encyclopedia. If I want to donate money as well, or > don't want to, that's my business, but it's certainly not money > Wikimedia "deserves", given that they're not paying me for my content. We recognize voluntary active members as valid and full members of the Wikimedia Foundation. So letting them turn off the notice as well is fine, IMO. It it the *readers* who should pay the great majority of the bills since, as you rightly state, editors already contribute. -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From maveric149 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 27 04:15:26 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 21:15:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Quick thoughts on fundraising In-Reply-To: <41575958.8080508@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040927041526.52208.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Anthere wrote: > Hmmmmm. We tried to adress this issue by translating many of the > donation pages. I am not sure it is a good idea to consider this a *big* > issue, because I am not sure it is a good idea to make it clear that > most donations are US ones. > > Perhaps Mav could clarify this ? USD still makes up about 60% of all donations. After the fund drive is over I'll take a look to see what percentage of USD donors actually live in the U.S. http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising/breakdown_by_currency -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jwales at wikia.com Tue Sep 28 13:32:33 2004 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 06:32:33 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Quick thoughts on fundraising In-Reply-To: <1b8.272dcd9.2e8798f5@aol.com> References: <1b8.272dcd9.2e8798f5@aol.com> Message-ID: <20040928133233.GN22654@wikia.com> daniwo59 at aol.com wrote: > I just wanted to add that I like all of Erik's ideas. Indeed. One thing he didn't focus on is our writing style. I find that we are frequently way too wordy and NPOV in our own marketing efforts. I'm not suggesting that we go overboard with garishness, etc., but we should recognize that many or most donations will be "impulse purchases" and to inspire that, an emotional connection is best. If we go back and read my "open letter" for our first ever fundraiser, it was a fairly emotional appeal. (I can't actually find it online right now, did it get lost?) --Jimbo From neubau at presroi.de Tue Sep 28 13:47:54 2004 From: neubau at presroi.de (Mathias Schindler) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 15:47:54 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Quick thoughts on fundraising In-Reply-To: <20040928133233.GN22654@wikia.com> References: <1b8.272dcd9.2e8798f5@aol.com> <20040928133233.GN22654@wikia.com> Message-ID: <41596B8A.6070306@presroi.de> Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote: > If we go back and read my "open letter" for our first ever fundraiser, > it was a fairly emotional appeal. (I can't actually find it online > right now, did it get lost?) http://taurus.kake.info.waseda.ac.jp/wikip/joyful/joyful.u.cgi?mode=res&no=498 English/Japanese From anthere9 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 28 19:06:08 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:06:08 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Quick thoughts on fundraising References: <1b8.272dcd9.2e8798f5@aol.com> <20040928133233.GN22654@wikia.com> Message-ID: <4159B620.1090307@yahoo.com> Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales a ?crit: > daniwo59 at aol.com wrote: > >>I just wanted to add that I like all of Erik's ideas. > > > Indeed. > > One thing he didn't focus on is our writing style. I find that we are > frequently way too wordy and NPOV in our own marketing efforts. I'm > not suggesting that we go overboard with garishness, etc., but we > should recognize that many or most donations will be "impulse > purchases" and to inspire that, an emotional connection is best. > > If we go back and read my "open letter" for our first ever fundraiser, > it was a fairly emotional appeal. (I can't actually find it online > right now, did it get lost?) > > --Jimbo It's here Jimbo...http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Quarto/0409/Fr See also http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Quarto/0409/Fr-2 (in french) http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Quarto/0409/En-2 (in english) http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Quarto/0409/Pl-2 (in polish) http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Quarto/0409/Zh-2 (in chinese) http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Quarto/0409/Ja-2 (in japanese) From anthere9 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 28 19:07:57 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:07:57 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Quick thoughts on fundraising References: <1b8.272dcd9.2e8798f5@aol.com> <20040928133233.GN22654@wikia.com> Message-ID: <4159B68D.7050807@yahoo.com> I mean your last fairly emotional open letter is here :-) (still looking for a decent french translation of your introduction, emotions are hard to translate) Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales a ?crit: > daniwo59 at aol.com wrote: > >>I just wanted to add that I like all of Erik's ideas. > > > Indeed. > > One thing he didn't focus on is our writing style. I find that we are > frequently way too wordy and NPOV in our own marketing efforts. I'm > not suggesting that we go overboard with garishness, etc., but we > should recognize that many or most donations will be "impulse > purchases" and to inspire that, an emotional connection is best. > > If we go back and read my "open letter" for our first ever fundraiser, > it was a fairly emotional appeal. (I can't actually find it online > right now, did it get lost?) > > --Jimbo From anthere9 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 28 19:06:35 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:06:35 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Quick thoughts on fundraising References: <1b8.272dcd9.2e8798f5@aol.com> <20040928133233.GN22654@wikia.com> Message-ID: <4159B63B.5070500@yahoo.com> Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales a ?crit: > daniwo59 at aol.com wrote: > >>I just wanted to add that I like all of Erik's ideas. > > > Indeed. > > One thing he didn't focus on is our writing style. I find that we are > frequently way too wordy and NPOV in our own marketing efforts. I'm > not suggesting that we go overboard with garishness, etc., but we > should recognize that many or most donations will be "impulse > purchases" and to inspire that, an emotional connection is best. > > If we go back and read my "open letter" for our first ever fundraiser, > it was a fairly emotional appeal. (I can't actually find it online > right now, did it get lost?) > > --Jimbo From beaubeaver at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 29 01:07:18 2004 From: beaubeaver at yahoo.co.uk (Nicholas Moreau) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 02:07:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Webbys Message-ID: <20040929010718.48544.qmail@web25101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Has anyone nominated Wikipedia for this year's Webbys? I didn't know it costed. Not much, but certainly enough, really. I can see us submitting Wikipedia to: Community Best Copy/Writing Best Navigation/Structure Best Practices Also, can we win a second time in the same category? Nick Moreau "Zanimum" --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! From andrew.lih at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 16:01:15 2004 From: andrew.lih at gmail.com (Andrew Lih) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 00:01:15 +0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Stories of WP Message-ID: <2ed171fb04092909015f262dc0@mail.gmail.com> I'll be talking to the BBC tomorrow about Wikipedia, and they're also interested in stories about Wikipedia outside of US/Europe. Of the top 20 languages, only Chinese and Japanese are non-European. However, if anyone can point me to some interesting stories regarding users in developing countries or how Wikipedia is used in unusual ways, please let me know. Thanks! -- Andrew (User:Fuzheado) From anthere9 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 29 17:25:41 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Quarto Message-ID: <20040929172541.11233.qmail@web41821.mail.yahoo.com> Hi all, I'd like to say a few words regarding our brand new newsletter. For those who missed the fun, many contributors have been working in the past few weeks on our first global newsletter. Please, see http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Quarto/0409/En. This is the english version, but 5 versions are already finished * english * french * japanese * polish * chinese and several others are near completion and hopefully will be done in the next few days/weeks : Ar: De: Es: Fi: It: and Sv: The newsletter idea was several times mentionned last summer on meta. In particular, Angela and I thought it could be sent to members of the Foundation. A few weeks ago Jimbo also mentionned he would like to find a way to better communicate his thoughts and points of view to the whole community. He pointed out that his communication was limited by the language barrier. I then suggested we do a quarterly letter to inform people of Jimbo and the board thoughts and activities, as well as report what has been going on in the global community. Improving the communication within the community and increasing the visibility of the Foundation activity to contributors, to readers and to donators is very important. I think this newsletter is one of those steps in this direction. We also wished that this first quaterly letter coincide both with the 1.000.000 Wikipedia articles announcement and the 1st trimester of activity of Angela and I. But the problem was very very short delays !!! And naturally a huge amount of work to provide. Not only huge, but definitly requiring a lot of coordination. I asked Sj if he could be the coordinator of the newsletter. I was sure he would do a very good job and I knew he would love it ;-) I am extremely glad I did ask him, and he accepted, because I think Sj made a wonderful job and I would really like to issue a special thank you note to him for making this dream come true. I think he has been devoting many hours on it, with optimism and cheerful mood. A hand of iron in velvet gloves. I hope he is very proud because he should be :-) This newsletter has been set up in an incredible short time (resulting in a few overlappings between writing and translating, sorry about that). Its great design was made by Villy, who probably also dedicated a month wikipedia-time on it. Dozens of different people have been contributing to its content; dozen of editors from many different languages have been contributing to its translation. We had a very nice and interesting interview from Ward. Many editors also helped proofreading, typo correcting, frame fixing etc... May they all be thanked. 5 versions are currently final, and have been transferred to the wikimediafoundation website and will be advertised on the local projects. There is still some work on them to do. More editors are still working on the other versions and I guess we will end up withabout 10 fully translated versions which is really great. Next steps will be to have all of them adequately set on the foundation website, made visible on projects, and slowly to work on a pdf or print version. In all cases, I hope all those who worked on it had pleasure to do so, and feel proud of the result. I really thank all of you; it gave me a very warm feeling to see we could so well and so quickly build up such a common project (of course, I should not feel surprised by this, but... still... even after nearly 3 years on wikipedia, I am still regularly amazed :-)). I think it was an important thing to do, and among other reasons, I think it was a great way to have editors from many languages working together on a common global project. I also hope it will help smaller projects to feel more involved and drain more people to get interested in meta activities. There are some flaws in the letter naturally, I hope readers will forgive us. There will be some feedback both on the letter or on its editorial organisation, or on the content itself to provide. Please do not hesitate to give us your feedback. Perhaps on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Quarto#Feedback, so we can have an even better letter in 3 months. Anthere __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From anthere9 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 29 17:33:17 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:33:17 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Excellent work on newsletter References: <9HS41iLxpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <415AF1DD.2090702@yahoo.com> Merci Erik. Erik Moeller a ?crit: > I'd just like to say that the first Wikimedia Quarto newsletter is very > nicely done: > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Quarto/0409/En-1 > > The use of images is just a little bit too random for my taste, but the > content and organization are excellent. Kudos to everyone involved. > > Regards, > > Erik From maveric149 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 29 17:26:54 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:26:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Stories of WP In-Reply-To: <2ed171fb04092909015f262dc0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040929172654.3393.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> --- Andrew Lih wrote: > I'll be talking to the BBC tomorrow about Wikipedia, and they're also > interested in stories about Wikipedia outside of US/Europe. > > Of the top 20 languages, only Chinese and Japanese are non-European. > However, if anyone can point me to some interesting stories regarding > users in developing countries or how Wikipedia is used in unusual > ways, please let me know. Uh - what about the majority of English and Spanish speakers who live outside of Europe? :) -- mav _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From rowan.collins at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 18:43:35 2004 From: rowan.collins at gmail.com (Rowan Collins) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:43:35 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Stories of WP In-Reply-To: <20040929172654.3393.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> References: <2ed171fb04092909015f262dc0@mail.gmail.com> <20040929172654.3393.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9f02ca4c040929114338a0d2e@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:26:54 -0700 (PDT), Daniel Mayer wrote: > --- Andrew Lih wrote: > > I'll be talking to the BBC tomorrow about Wikipedia, and they're also > > interested in stories about Wikipedia outside of US/Europe. > > > > Of the top 20 languages, only Chinese and Japanese are non-European. > > However, if anyone can point me to some interesting stories regarding > > users in developing countries or how Wikipedia is used in unusual > > ways, please let me know. > > Uh - what about the majority of English and Spanish speakers who live outside > of Europe? :) Well, he did say "outside of US/Europe", which must put a pretty big dent in English. And both English and Spanish, are technically speaking, European languages, so his second paragraph is probably technically accurate, from a pedantic point of view. But especially with Spanish, you do have a point: I wonder how many South American contributors we have there (and what of Brazillian Portugese?)... -- Rowan Collins BSc [IMSoP] From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 19:32:50 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:32:50 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Stories of WP In-Reply-To: <2ed171fb04092909015f262dc0@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ed171fb04092909015f262dc0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <742dfd0604092912327ef44d02@mail.gmail.com> They should of course contact Wizzy Digital. http://www.wizzy.org.za/ Andy Rabagliati probably has the best stories; I think he is the one who realized Wikipedia would make a good component for their CD, and who handles retreiving the latest snapshot (he's posted about this on the wikitech list over the summer): andyr at wizzy.com RSA Tel: +27.82.681.4887 If you can't reach him, there is also a US business contact listed on their site: Larry Wood, +1.570.746.3408 On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 00:01:15 +0800, Andrew Lih wrote: > I'll be talking to the BBC tomorrow about Wikipedia, and they're also > interested in stories about Wikipedia outside of US/Europe. > > Of the top 20 languages, only Chinese and Japanese are non-European. There's always the middle east... though that may not be far enough from Europe for their tastes. From e.p.zachte at chello.nl Wed Sep 29 19:38:53 2004 From: e.p.zachte at chello.nl (Erik Zachte) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:38:53 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikipedians by country - was Stories of WP Message-ID: It would be interesting indeed to see where Wikipedians live, especially for English, Spanish, ... Wikipedias where we really have no clue where the contributors come from. A suggestion: we might add a drop down box to the user preferences screen where a user can >>optionally<< select his/her country of residence. I would really like to add info about this to the stats pages. But better wait till we have a single signon, so that each user is counted only once. Erik Zachte From andrew.lih at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 20:02:05 2004 From: andrew.lih at gmail.com (Andrew Lih) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 04:02:05 +0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Stories of WP In-Reply-To: <9f02ca4c040929114338a0d2e@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ed171fb04092909015f262dc0@mail.gmail.com> <20040929172654.3393.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c040929114338a0d2e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ed171fb04092913024e901875@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:43:35 +0100, Rowan Collins wrote: > Well, he did say "outside of US/Europe", which must put a pretty big > dent in English. And both English and Spanish, are technically > speaking, European languages, so his second paragraph is probably > technically accurate, from a pedantic point of view. Right, I consider English and Spanish as having European roots. > But especially with Spanish, you do have a point: I wonder how > many South American contributors we have there (and what of > Brazillian Portugese?)... Yes, this is what I would like more stories about, and maybe some numbers about how many Latin American users we have now. There should be a fair number of Brazilians, since the threat of a Portuguese language split was an issue recently. But I just don't know much about the Spanish speaking WP community. -- Andrew Lih andrew.lih at gmail.com From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 21:53:09 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:53:09 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikipedians by country - was Stories of WP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <742dfd0604092914536aa6b91e@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:38:53 +0200, Erik Zachte wrote: > A suggestion: we might add a drop down box to the user preferences screen > where a user can >>optionally<< select his/her country of residence. > I would really like to add info about this to the stats pages. But better > wait till we have a single signon, so that each user is counted only once. And all kinds of other optional details. City would also be useful, for instance. Some users are averse to sharing any personal information about themselves; but others are happy to share a great deal of it. And some information, like the email address, can be hidden from other users by default. +sj+ From rowan.collins at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 23:23:37 2004 From: rowan.collins at gmail.com (Rowan Collins) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 00:23:37 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikipedians by country - was Stories of WP In-Reply-To: <742dfd0604092914536aa6b91e@mail.gmail.com> References: <742dfd0604092914536aa6b91e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9f02ca4c04092916232fc5eac0@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:53:09 -0400, Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote: > On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:38:53 +0200, Erik Zachte wrote: > > A suggestion: we might add a drop down box to the user preferences screen > > where a user can >>optionally<< select his/her country of residence. > > I would really like to add info about this to the stats pages. But better > > wait till we have a single signon, so that each user is counted only once. > > And all kinds of other optional details. City would also be useful, > for instance. Some users are averse to sharing any personal > information about themselves; but others are happy to share a great > deal of it. And some information, like the email address, can be > hidden from other users by default. My only comment is that this should *only* be on a preferences page, and we should resist temptation to ask *anything* when setting up a new account. I think the ability to say "Yes, enter a username and password, and that really is it, no more questions" is a real selling point for people to set up accounts. Which, of course, makes them easier to relate to as users, and more likely to get hooked! ;) Oh, and of course we'd have to promise not to use it for spam, even User_talk: spam (if you see what I mean). Otherwise, nice idea. Would create a database version of all those endless pages on meta: and in the Wikipedia: namespace covering this kind of thing. -- Rowan Collins BSc [IMSoP] From tomk32 at gmx.de Thu Sep 30 05:55:30 2004 From: tomk32 at gmx.de (Thomas R. Koll) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 07:55:30 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Stories of WP In-Reply-To: <2ed171fb04092909015f262dc0@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ed171fb04092909015f262dc0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040930055530.GA17214@tomk32.homelinux.org> On Thu, Sep 30, 2004 at 12:01:15AM +0800, Andrew Lih wrote: > I'll be talking to the BBC tomorrow about Wikipedia, and they're also > interested in stories about Wikipedia outside of US/Europe. > > Of the top 20 languages, only Chinese and Japanese are non-European. > However, if anyone can point me to some interesting stories regarding > users in developing countries or how Wikipedia is used in unusual > ways, please let me know. Maybe not excactly what you want, but on de: we have a group of Swiss pupils (age 15-17) who wrote a lot about the small island-country of Nauru making it to the maybe best described country in Wikipedia. They also start to translate their articles to English. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal_Nauru http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategorie:Nauru http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:CdaMVvWgS - the group of pupils ciao, tom -- == Weblinks == * http://shop.wikipedia.org - WikiReader Internet zu kaufen * http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:TomK32 * http://www.hammererlehen.de - Urlaub in Berchtesgaden From anthere9 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 30 08:29:15 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 01:29:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikipedia and sustainable development Message-ID: <20040930082915.92580.qmail@web41801.mail.yahoo.com> Hello, Wikipedia has been invited to participate to a french meeting about the use of Internet technologies in sustainable development, which will take place in february 2005, www.tic21.com. I am not sure it will be possible that we indeed participate to the meeting itself, for it is *expensive*. However, external financial support might be an option (sponsorship). In any cases, the meeting has been advertised in several ways, among which a first newsletter sent in spring 2004. The first newsletter may be visible here : http://www.tic21.com/intro.php?Page=lettreTIC21.htm A second newsletter will be send to all participants soon. This newsletter will include a collection of texts written by several implicated actors, such as french administration, french academics, France Telecom, Unesco, Fing, Agora21, local committee 21 etc... I have been asked to participate to it for Wikipedia. The organiser of the meeting suggested that I explained how the website www.planetecologie.com and Wikipedia could collaborate together (an idea on which we have been working before summer), and how and if collective intelligence could possibly be useful within sustainable development. Hmmmm. I can obviously stay at the level of short description of Wikipedia, plus add a nice paragraph of fluttery thoughts on how giving free access to information to the largest number of people is indeed a participation to sustainable developement TO MY OPINION... supporting social integration, helping making informed decisions, favoring cultural understanding hence peace, participating democracy, blablabla However, I would love being *much* more practical, and give REAL examples of our work : I have distinguished 3 potential directions of interest, * my pet topic, the ecoregions project * the brand new wikispecies and the tree of life * the Gemet I need help on the last two. I would love it if I could have a short resume of the current state of wikispecies and tree of life current state of development, and hopes of the editors participating to it. Who would be available to discuss this with me ? on irc or by mail. Second, I just could not find back the mails sent to the ml (which ml ?) about the Gemet and its integration in wiktionary. I have just no idea what the state of this project is (except that I see it is mentioned on the Gemet page itself...). Again, I would love to know more about this. I think that mentionning REAL projects, citing facts, pointing out to work already done, will speak more than a thousand words. And I believe it could have much impact on how our implication is seen by some big organisations. Who can help me ? Anthere --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! From beesley at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 21:56:15 2004 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 22:56:15 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Support for local chapters Message-ID: <8b722b8004093014565930a67f@mail.gmail.com> There has apparently been a major misunderstanding over my view towards local chapters, so I want to go on record as saying I *strongly* support the idea of Wikimedia having local chapters and I always have done. The source of the misunderstanding appears to be an edit by an anonymous user: http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Talk:Membership_fees&diff=41997&oldid=41996 stating they did not see the point of local chapters. Anthere later edited the page to sign this comment as me: http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Talk:Membership_fees&diff=48109&oldid=47756 This was most definitely not me and represents the complete opposite to my view. It was only on reading the logs of the Hindi Wikimedia IRC channel that I discovered this problem. I see the existence of Wikimedia chapters as a very positive step and I will help in any way I can to encourage the growth of these. I hope to see them in every part of the world. I want one day for no one to become a member directly of the Foundation because everyone will have a local chapter they can join. Issues such as the legalities of money transfer between chapters and the Foundation in certain countries are problems that we need to work around, but these should in no way prevent the creation of a chapter in any country with a sufficient number of interested volunteers. The main reason I went to Berlin in June was so I could learn more about the process of starting a chapter since Wikimedia Germany were the first country to do this. I also went to Paris and observed the beginnings of the French chapter there, and discussed ESTU with Arno Lagrange when we were in London. I fully intend to have a UK chapter registered as a charity in this country later next year. I have never been opposed to local chapters, and I am upset that people are under the mistaken impression that I am. Angela From anthere9 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 30 22:56:16 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 00:56:16 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Support for local chapters References: <8b722b8004093014565930a67f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <415C8F10.5020301@yahoo.com> Angela a ?crit: > I have never been opposed to local chapters, and I am upset that > people are under the mistaken impression that I am. > > Angela It was in trying to reorganise the whole page, and archive all bits that seemed to be old talk, because the page was getting very heavy and confusing, while keeping some of the unadressed comments, and I made the mistake. There were two paragraphs, and answers from me in between, with Angela signature under the second and no signature under the first. In moving and archiving it all, in an attempt to clarify who said what, I added Angela signature to what has been in reality an anon comment (visible in history). I really apology for this, and I hope Angela will believe it was not done in bad faith. I really thought it was her position at that time, though I totally had the feeling she had changed her position later on. I should have realised my mistake. I am sorry Angela. From rvabrilot at gmail.com Sat Sep 4 07:12:34 2004 From: rvabrilot at gmail.com (rodrigo vera) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 03:12:34 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Chilef Wikipedia Message-ID: I am a student from the Tecnical University Federico Santa Maria of Chile, i am preparing a proyect for creating an encyclopedia of Chile with mediawiki, We plan to create a meta-site named www.chilef.cl (or chilef.mediawiki.org if you like) wich coordinate de effort for creating this large scale proyect. we really whant to create a "evangelization process" for this, with a litle help of e-mails, contacts in chilean universities (we have) and chain reaction messages through people we know. also we want to administer links with es.wikipedia.com for some content. we think that a strong net of contacts will make all the force needed by this proyect and want to share it whit you. From the_pokemon_master at hotmail.com Sat Sep 4 07:22:33 2004 From: the_pokemon_master at hotmail.com (Christopher Larberg) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 00:22:33 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Chilef Wikipedia References: Message-ID: Can you clarify what you intend to do with this encyclopedia? Create an encyclopedia specifically about Chile? Also, is the actual encyclopedia going to be online? You speak of making a "meta-site" with MediaWiki, but you haven't mentioned the actual project. Also, what exactly is the intent of this e-mail? Are you just informing us, or do you want us to do something? Sorry for the questions; I'm just curious. =) --Slowking Man ----- Original Message ----- From: rodrigo vera To: foundation-l at wikimedia.org Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2004 12:12 AM Subject: [Foundation-l] Chilef Wikipedia I am a student from the Tecnical University Federico Santa Maria of Chile, i am preparing a proyect for creating an encyclopedia of Chile with mediawiki, We plan to create a meta-site named www.chilef.cl (or chilef.mediawiki.org if you like) wich coordinate de effort for creating this large scale proyect. we really whant to create a "evangelization process" for this, with a litle help of e-mails, contacts in chilean universities (we have) and chain reaction messages through people we know. also we want to administer links with es.wikipedia.com for some content. we think that a strong net of contacts will make all the force needed by this proyect and want to share it whit you. From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 4 14:28:16 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 07:28:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation web site needs you Message-ID: <20040904142816.59950.qmail@web41811.mail.yahoo.com> Hello, The future wikimedia website may be found here : http://wikimedia.org/wiki/Home For it to become truely our site, it needs input from editors. You may find here (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_website) some ideas about we would like it to become and why. You are welcome to help adding content in it. For this, you need to ask for an account. Please do so to Angela or I. Mostly, to be functionnal, the website needs technical help. An irc occured a while ago on the topic. The link is here : http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Foundation_website_meeting%2C_July_2004 In this discussion, it was concluded that there were a bunch of things to fix, such as html handling, different skin for loggued-in users and non loggued-in users, languages... The current situation in any cases is that * We cannot host the fundraising page * We cannot easily handle multilingualism The first point makes it impossible for the website to just exist. The second is just a knife cut in our attempt to make this site multilingue. Is there anyone interested to help about this ? If yes, when and for what ? Is there any hope that anything is done in the next 6 months ? I am ready to participate to the content, but since I would prefer to write in french and am basically the only one participating on it, is it a problem that the foundation website is in french ? Also, is it okay to everyone that I change the current fundraising page ? There is outdated information on it, and I would like that translations are included as well. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 4 14:39:07 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 07:39:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Foundation website, address Message-ID: <20040904143907.5421.qmail@web41813.mail.yahoo.com> Oh, I forgot... I remember a mail was sent to the owner of wikimedia.com. What are the news on that topic ? for information We chose to have the site at WikimediaFoundation rather than the easier Wikimedia, for the simple reason that we do not own wikimedia.com. Ant _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 4 14:51:22 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 07:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Developer payment Message-ID: <20040904145122.22403.qmail@web41806.mail.yahoo.com> Hello I made a proposal for how we could handle this tricky issue on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Developer_payment. I invite you to read it and to comment if you wish :-) My belief is that it is a decent compromise between all the wishes expressed (well, at least I hope). I remind you that this is a trial, not a permanent decision. The plain idea is * that the opportunity is taken to clean up and organise better a couple of pages (such as http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Development_tasks) * to avoid bureaucracy. **If an editor or the foundation wishes for a task to be done, just ask **If a developer is ready to take care of a matter, just mentions it on development task. If he would be interested by getting in contract, please mentions it on [[development payment proposal]] (or any title you think best) *to always ensure that this task is welcome by the entire community (please discuss it before on mailing lists or meta) *to ensure that this task makes consensus amongst the developers (hence the involvment of the developer committee - no task will be paid for, which will go against the general direction set by the developers, or is technically nonsensical) *to ensure that this task is interesting the foundation (hence, the decision to pay or not for a task will be made by the board) Refining the proposal is welcome. Otherwise, basically, this is in your hands now. The basic structure is there, use it or do not use it :-) ant __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From modean52 at comcast.net Sat Sep 4 16:30:22 2004 From: modean52 at comcast.net (James R. Johnson) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 12:30:22 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation web site needs you In-Reply-To: <20040904142816.59950.qmail@web41811.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040904163033.5CFE11AC0016@mail.wikimedia.org> Hello Anthere, I can help with translating from French after March (since I'll be in France, and know more then), but for now, I can help translate to German and Anglo-Saxon. James -----Original Message----- From: foundation-l-bounces at wikimedia.org [mailto:foundation-l-bounces at wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Anthere Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2004 10:28 AM To: wikitech-l at wikimedia.org Cc: foundation-l at wikimedia.org Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation web site needs you Hello, The future wikimedia website may be found here : http://wikimedia.org/wiki/Home For it to become truely our site, it needs input from editors. You may find here (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_website) some ideas about we would like it to become and why. You are welcome to help adding content in it. For this, you need to ask for an account. Please do so to Angela or I. Mostly, to be functionnal, the website needs technical help. An irc occured a while ago on the topic. The link is here : http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Foundation_website_meeting%2C_July_2004 In this discussion, it was concluded that there were a bunch of things to fix, such as html handling, different skin for loggued-in users and non loggued-in users, languages... The current situation in any cases is that * We cannot host the fundraising page * We cannot easily handle multilingualism The first point makes it impossible for the website to just exist. The second is just a knife cut in our attempt to make this site multilingue. Is there anyone interested to help about this ? If yes, when and for what ? Is there any hope that anything is done in the next 6 months ? I am ready to participate to the content, but since I would prefer to write in french and am basically the only one participating on it, is it a problem that the foundation website is in french ? Also, is it okay to everyone that I change the current fundraising page ? There is outdated information on it, and I would like that translations are included as well. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l at wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l From erik_moeller at gmx.de Sun Sep 5 01:20:00 2004 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: 05 Sep 2004 03:20:00 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [WikiEN-l] Secretlondon's attacks on Jimbo Wales In-Reply-To: <20040904163405.GA9370@wikia.com> Message-ID: <9GJpYB9CpVB@erik_moeller> Jimmy- (cc to foundation-l) > I wrote: >> I'm getting sick of your US bashing. Please stop it now. > I regretted it, and apologized. I apologized again today. I try to > be nice to everyone, but sometimes I fail, and I'm very sorry about > that. I see two problems here: 1) People confuse your personal opinions with Wikipedia policy. Maybe a copy&paste disclaimer for your emails would help with that? "The opinions in this email are my own and do not reflect Wikimedia or Wikipedia project policy unless otherwise stated." Most email clients support multiple sigs for purposes like that. 2) People don't realize that Wikimedia is not just Jimbo Wales. Most of our external communications have been very Jimbo-centric so far, but that's partially because there was no elected Board of Trustees, for example. Is there a shared board email address already? Maybe something like board at wikimedia dot org could be used as a replacement for the ubiquitous jwales at bomis dot com. That would also help in combating the Bomis-related conspiracy theories. A ticket system would offer quite a few advantages over a simple mailing list: 1) no duplicate effort, 2) no need for spamming your inbox, just do everything through a single web interface, 3) easily expand the team of "agents", with different categories and associated user rights. Essentially a Bugzilla for emails. This system here looks interesting: http://otrs.org/ http://otrs.org/screenshot/ Regards, Erik From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 5 10:27:09 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 03:27:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Meetings in Europe Message-ID: <20040905102709.88117.qmail@web41801.mail.yahoo.com> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_meetup http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedian_meetings_in_Europe Many meetings took place in Europe and US. Some are reported on meta, but not all of them. Could those who participated to these meetings list them on meta (place, date and notable events if appropriate, plus relevant links to local project with all the great pictures and name of participants) so we could track of all this ? Thanks in advance. ant _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From beesley at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 14:38:55 2004 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela_) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 15:38:55 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Developer payment In-Reply-To: <413AFFD7.8000706@yahoo.com> References: <20040904145122.22403.qmail@web41806.mail.yahoo.com> <413AED1A.2000202@yahoo.com> <413AFFD7.8000706@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8b722b800409050738685a2e10@mail.gmail.com> Timwi wrote: >> You have made no mention of MediaZilla, which saddens me a bit. Anthere wrote: > I did not put it in the tasks because I understood it had already been > set up. I think Timwi meant that MediaZilla should be used to organize the developer payments, not that it is a candidate for payment. This means that the a tag is added to bugs or feature requests that tells anyone looking at MediaZilla that a bounty is available, and the developer can choose to accept it by noting this in MediaZilla itself, rather than on the wiki. Angela. From jwales at wikia.com Sun Sep 5 15:37:50 2004 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 08:37:50 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Paypal in French In-Reply-To: <200408181156.47931.yann@forget-me.net> References: <200408181156.47931.yann@forget-me.net> Message-ID: <20040905153750.GC8114@wikia.com> Yann Forget wrote: > Paypal existe now in French. > I think that will help donations from French speaking countries. > > http://www.01net.com/article/249486.html > http://www.paypal.fr Is there something we need to do to enable this, or does it just work automatically? I know there has been some concern in the French community about finances and about transparency with respect to finances. Is there something we should do about that? --Jimbo From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 5 22:35:41 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 15:35:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Paypal in French In-Reply-To: <20040905153750.GC8114@wikia.com> Message-ID: <20040905223541.4368.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" wrote: > Is there something we need to do to enable this, or does it just work > automatically? It should work as is with our current account. What we need is HTML support for the WMF wiki so that the already translated donation pages could be hosted there. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From anthere9 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 6 04:28:05 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 06:28:05 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Paypal in French References: <20040905153750.GC8114@wikia.com> <20040905223541.4368.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <413BE755.1070804@yahoo.com> Daniel Mayer a ?crit: > --- "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" wrote: > >>Is there something we need to do to enable this, or does it just work >>automatically? > > > It should work as is with our current account. What we need is HTML support for > the WMF wiki so that the already translated donation pages could be hosted > there. > > -- mav Mav is correct. Looxix already translated the form. What we need is HTML support for the WMF wiki ... From kissall at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 08:08:35 2004 From: kissall at gmail.com (Kiss All) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 03:08:35 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] a proposal about sharing free ideas Message-ID: <384f6ad4040906010816d46ec7@mail.gmail.com> share ideas and coordinate their implementation Link to request on mailing list: [1] (http://mail.wikipedia.org/) Naming suggestions: Share your ideas Domain name: http://ideas.wikimedia.org Scope: Good ideas are much more important than just knowledge. We are already trying to share valuable knowledge nowadays, but how about the invaluable ideas? We, human beings in this plantet, should share any ideas beneficial to ourselves by posting it right after it flashes in your mind, discuss it with others, and even find a way to realize it. Isn't it great! Details: share your ideas http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/share_your_ideas Proposer:kissall People interested joining: kissall Relevant links: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Kissall -- Be good.... From anthere9 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 6 19:03:59 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 12:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] =?iso-8859-1?q?Re=3A_Article_=22Etes-vous_archikh?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=FBbe_et_archif=E2kh_=3F=22?= Message-ID: <20040906190359.3320.qmail@web41812.mail.yahoo.com> Note : Yannf a envoye cette copie a la ml ? ma demande. Yann, Je pr?f?rerais tr?s tr?s vivement que lorsque tu parles au nom du conseil de Wikimedia (ie, en tant que porte parole) * soit tu demandes ? un membre du board son opinion au pr?alable * soit qu'au minimum, tu mettes en copie le courrier envoy?, ? la liste de discussion ou ? un membre. Tu peux bien sur parfaitement ?crire en ton nom propre. Anthere ------- Yann Forget a ?crit: > Bonjour, > > L'article de la rubrique "?ducation" titr? "Etes-vous archikh?be et > archif?kh ?" (1) est en partie copi? depuis l'encyclop?die en ligne > Wikip?dia, notamment de http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argot_scolaire . La > licence des textes de cette encyclop?die impose de citer la source si le > texte est r?utilis?, hors votre article ne cite aucune source. Pourriez-vous, > s'il vous pla?t, corriger cette lacune ? > > En vous remerciant par avance, > Yann Forget > porte-parole de la fondation Wikipedia > > 1) http://www.lefigaro.fr/education/20040825.FIG0233.html > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > WikiFR-l mailing list > WikiFR-l-g2DCOkC13y2GglJvpFV4uA at public.gmane.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikifr-l __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jansson at gmx.net Mon Sep 6 19:06:39 2004 From: jansson at gmx.net (Kurt Jansson) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 21:06:39 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] ticket system and newsletter software (was: Secretlondon's attacks on Jimbo Wales) In-Reply-To: <9GJpYB9CpVB@erik_moeller> References: <9GJpYB9CpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <413CB53F.9040803@gmx.net> Erik Moeller schrieb: > A ticket system would offer quite a few advantages over a simple mailing > list: 1) no duplicate effort, 2) no need for spamming your inbox, just do > everything through a single web interface, 3) easily expand the team of > "agents", with different categories and associated user rights. > Essentially a Bugzilla for emails. We've been talking about a ticket system in the German press team, and most people support it's use, though it would be less open. But it would be less chaotic, too. ATM some questions get answered twice, others might be overlooked between all the spam and viruses (especially a virus filter would be a big (!) improvement for the people answering the info at wikipedia.de mails). > This system here looks interesting: > http://otrs.org/ > http://otrs.org/screenshot/ Another system which has been mentioned is http://www.bestpractical.com/rt/ A newsletter software would also be quite useful, especially for sending out press releases. We could use mailman, but a specialized software would do the job much better. PHPlist seems to be popular: http://tincan.co.uk/phplist Kurt From anthere9 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 6 23:59:24 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 01:59:24 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] status Message-ID: <413CF9DC.9060508@yahoo.com> I will be away or very little available for the next few days. Have fun ;-) Anthere From wikipedia at earthlink.net Tue Sep 7 03:28:20 2004 From: wikipedia at earthlink.net (Michael Snow) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 20:28:20 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Update on status of press release In-Reply-To: <20040906042927.BC7411AC0340@mail.wikimedia.org> References: <20040906042927.BC7411AC0340@mail.wikimedia.org> Message-ID: <413D2AD4.8000609@earthlink.net> Our upcoming press release about the 1,000,000-article milestone for Wikipedia is approaching completion. I just wanted to keep everyone informed who's helping with the project. Based on the current rate of article creation, we're still looking at September 15 as the date for the millionth article, and we plan to starting sending the press release that day. I anticipate some changes still need to be made - for example, a new quote from Jimbo instead of recycling the one from the last press release. But I plan to push on and hopefully have a final text ready in the next 24 hours or so. Anyone who still has input they want to offer, please don't hold back; I would love to have your help, but we need to freeze the text for the translation process very soon. Thanks also to the translators, many of whom have already started working on the draft text. I will announce on this list again when the text is finalized, so you can update translations to that version. --Michael Snow From beesley at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 16:49:58 2004 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 17:49:58 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Launch of the Wikimedia Commons Message-ID: <8b722b80040907094975f3368b@mail.gmail.com> I am pleased to announce that a database has now been set up for the Wikimedia Commons. The site is temporarily located at http://commons.wikimedia.org/ until the project gets its own domain. This provides a space for those interested to begin forming the guidelines for the site, and to discuss how the software will need to adapt to make the Commons as useful as possible. The previous discussions are now linked to from http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Project_plan. Batches of files may be uploaded as compressed zip files. Some time in the next few days, a script will be written to decompress these zip files on the server side. Please make sure you use appropriate file names inside the archives. Thanks to Tim Starling for creating the database, and to all those who have contributed to the discussion so far. Angela. From maveric149 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 7 17:39:26 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 10:39:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Launch of the Wikimedia Commons In-Reply-To: <8b722b80040907094975f3368b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040907173926.88868.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Angela wrote: > I am pleased to announce that a database has now been set up for the > Wikimedia Commons. This is great news! > The site is temporarily located at http://commons.wikimedia.org/ until > the project gets its own domain. I'm pretty sure the plan was to keep the domain name exactly like it is now since it is a *common* resource for all Wikimedia projects (just like Meta). > This provides a space for those interested to begin forming the > guidelines for the site, and to discuss how the software will need to > adapt to make the Commons as useful as possible. > > The previous discussions are now linked to from > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Project_plan. > > Batches of files may be uploaded as compressed zip files. Some time in > the next few days, a script will be written to decompress these zip > files on the server side. Please make sure you use appropriate file > names inside the archives. Hm. Lot's of images to transfer. Could the transwiki function be tweaked in order to do this? -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From rich at richpoints.com Tue Sep 7 22:14:53 2004 From: rich at richpoints.com (Rich Points) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 16:14:53 -0600 Subject: [Foundation-l] Mediawiki installation trouble Message-ID: <041801c49528$19aa05e0$6401a8c0@LAPCHICKEN> Howdy, I hope this is the right list to post this inquiry, if not can someone direct me to the appropriate list. I'm trying to install mediawiki 1.3.2 and I'm getting the following error report. Can someone tell me what I'm doing wrong? Thanks Rich a.. PHP 4.3.8: ok a.. Warning: PHP's register_globals option is enabled. MediaWiki will work correctly, but this setting increases your exposure to potential security vulnerabilities in PHP-based software running on your server. You should disable it if you are able. a.. PHP server API is apache; ok, using pretty URLs (index.php/Page_Title) a.. Have XML / Latin1-UTF-8 conversion support. a.. PHP's memory_limit is 16M. If this is too low, installation may fail! Attempting to raise limit to 20M... ok. a.. Have zlib support; enabling output compression. a.. Found GD graphics library built-in, image thumbnailing will be enabled if you enable uploads. a.. Installation directory: a.. Script URI path: /wiki Warning: Unknown(DefaultSettings.php): failed to open stream: No such file or directory in /opt2/home3/rd6714/public_html/wiki/config/index.php(373) : eval()'d code on line 8 Warning: (null)(): Failed opening 'DefaultSettings.php' for inclusion (include_path='.::/includes:/languages') in /opt2/home3/rd6714/public_html/wiki/config/index.php(373) : eval()'d code on line 8 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 8 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 9 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 12 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 13 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 14 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 15 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 16 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 17 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 18 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 19 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 20 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 21 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 22 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 23 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 24 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 25 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 26 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 27 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 28 Notice: Constant already defined in ./includes/Namespace.php on line 29 Fatal error: Cannot redeclare -- Rich Points Rich at RichPoints.com http://RichPoints.com From rowan.collins at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 22:39:48 2004 From: rowan.collins at gmail.com (Rowan Collins) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 23:39:48 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Mediawiki installation trouble In-Reply-To: <041801c49528$19aa05e0$6401a8c0@LAPCHICKEN> References: <041801c49528$19aa05e0$6401a8c0@LAPCHICKEN> Message-ID: <9f02ca4c040907153962ffd7b7@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 16:14:53 -0600, Rich Points wrote: > Howdy, > I hope this is the right list to post this inquiry, if not can someone direct me to the appropriate list. You want the "mediawiki-l" list - mediawiki-l at wikimedia.org | http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l Good luck. -- Rowan Collins BSc [IMSoP] From kissall at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 00:12:56 2004 From: kissall at gmail.com (Kiss All) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 19:12:56 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Mediawiki installation trouble In-Reply-To: <9f02ca4c040907153962ffd7b7@mail.gmail.com> References: <041801c49528$19aa05e0$6401a8c0@LAPCHICKEN> <9f02ca4c040907153962ffd7b7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <384f6ad4040907171276bb0471@mail.gmail.com> I don't know the reason, but have you changed the permission of config directory? I installed 1.3.2 on both Red Hat 9.0 and Gentoo . The only time-consuming thing for me was to set up LAMP combination properly, not MediaWiki. I wrote the install guide for RH9 and refined the one for Gentoo. You may have a look at them if you like http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Running_MediaWiki_on_Gentoo_Linux http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Running_MediaWiki_on_Red_Hat_Linux On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 23:39:48 +0100, Rowan Collins wrote: > On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 16:14:53 -0600, Rich Points wrote: > > Howdy, > > I hope this is the right list to post this inquiry, if not can someone direct me to the appropriate list. > > You want the "mediawiki-l" list - mediawiki-l at wikimedia.org | > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l > > Good luck. > > -- > Rowan Collins BSc > [IMSoP] > > > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > -- Be good.... From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 00:48:22 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 20:48:22 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Newsletter Message-ID: <742dfd06040907174812cfbf9a@mail.gmail.com> Hello all, I am happy to announce that a Wikimedia newsletter is underway. The plan is to publish it online next week, then lay it out for print publication. You can see an outline of the first issue here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Newsletter_(outline) We are looking for a managing editor in each language, a lead copyeditor, a print editor, and a community reporter. If you would like to work on the newsletter in any capacity, please leave a note on the talk page, or email me directly. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Newsletter Everyone is encouraged to suggest content; particularly compelling wiki-statistics, notes about local wikiprojects, symbolic articles (preferably from the [[meta:List of articles all languages should have]], and 'feature-quality' in more than one language) and images for the gallery. Please leave suggestions for newsletter content on the discussion page above. We also need translators, and proofreaders in each language. You can follow the translation effort or contribute to it here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/NL-1 Rundschreiben der Wikimedia Wikimedia newsletter Bolet?n de noticias de Wikimedia Lettre de diffusion de Wikimedia ?????????? http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/NL-1 Wer Lust hat, sich an der deutschen (oder anderen) Fassung zu beteiligen, schreibt bitte an meta.sj at gmail.com If you would like to help translate or edit the newsletter, please send mail to meta.sj at gmail.com Si Usted quiere traducir entre espa?ol y otro idioma, o corregir en espa?ol, favor de mandar un email a meta.sj at gmail.com. Si vous voulez faire une traduction ou r?dacter en fran?ais, ?crivez-nous a meta.sj at gmail.com. ?????????????????? ?????????????????????meta.sj at gmail.com?????????????? ===== On the subject of translations, I want to repeat Michael Snow's notice of the press release being prepared in honor of the one millionth Wikipedia article. Please spread the word, and help us translate this into every one of our hundred+ languages (currently we only have translations in 15). Note that the original is still being edited, and is not yet ready for release. Globale Presseerkl?rung (millionstel Seite) Global press release (millionth article) Lanzamiento de prensa global (millon?simo art?culo) Communiqu? de presse global (millioni?me article) ????????????????????? http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/PR-1mil This is also a good time to think of local newspapers and radio stations that you could contact about the announcement (it's not too early to start contacting them now). For a list of organizations contacted earlier this year, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Press_releases/Logbook September cheer, Sj From jmoore21166 at bellsouth.net Wed Sep 8 11:12:23 2004 From: jmoore21166 at bellsouth.net (James Moore) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 07:12:23 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Help Request: Changing an Existing Non-Wiki Project into a Wiki Project Message-ID: <000d01c49594$b7a8adc0$230110ac@gateway.2wire.net> Greetings, I have for the past four years been the webmaster and chief author of the Outcyclopedia, an online reference guide for the gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender community. I would like to revamp the project into a wiki, using articles already existing on the site, any future articles written by myself or contributors, plus articles forked from Wikipedia, per Wikipedia's copyright guidelines, using and granting permissions under either the GNU or Creative Commons License. The change from a site using html to one utilizing PHP, MySQL, and MediaWiki would take me into new territory, technical and otherwise. I would therefore appreciate any and all help and advice which may be offered, especially from persons running their own non-Wikipedia wiki projects, such as Memory Alpha or Jewpedia, and of course any other GLBt Wikipedians that may be out there. Thanks. Cheers, James http://outcyclopedia.0catch.com From walter at wikipedia.be Wed Sep 8 14:11:51 2004 From: walter at wikipedia.be (Walter Vermeir) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 14:11:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Foundation-l] Fact-index.com financially supports the Wikimedia Foundation Message-ID: http://www.fact-index.com/c/co/computer_science.html *Fact-index.com financially supports the Wikimedia Foundation*. Is this true? --- [[w:nl:gebruiker:Walter]] From wikipedia at earthlink.net Wed Sep 8 14:22:41 2004 From: wikipedia at earthlink.net (Michael Snow) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 07:22:41 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Press release finalized In-Reply-To: <20040908004843.AEFFF1AC0474@mail.wikimedia.org> References: <20040908004843.AEFFF1AC0474@mail.wikimedia.org> Message-ID: <413F15B1.7070900@earthlink.net> The press release is now in its final version. The text has been frozen should not be edited any further. If you have started translating the press release already, please update your translation to reflect the final version. If the press release has not been translated into your language yet, please post an announcement on your Wikipedia asking for someone who can do that. Translation is being coordinated at: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/PR-1mil Different languages may add content that would be of local interest to media in that language. I would recommend that any such additions be kept brief, so that the overall press release is not too long. We are still planning for the press release to start going out on September 15 when we reach one million articles. Thank you to everyone who has helped so far, and to everyone who will help when it comes time to distribute the press release as well. --Michael Snow From beesley at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 15:08:20 2004 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela_) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 16:08:20 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Fact-index.com financially supports the Wikimedia Foundation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8b722b8004090808089dba4b0@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 14:11:51 +0000 (UTC), Walter Vermeir wrote: > *Fact-index.com financially supports the Wikimedia Foundation*. Is this true? Fact-index have made a substantial donation to the Foundation. Plans are being made to detail this, and other significant donations, on the http://wikimediafoundation.org website in future. Angela. From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 15:40:55 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 11:40:55 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Press release finalized In-Reply-To: <413F15B1.7070900@earthlink.net> References: <20040908004843.AEFFF1AC0474@mail.wikimedia.org> <413F15B1.7070900@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <742dfd0604090808407cb3d019@mail.gmail.com> September 15 no longer feels so far away... (crossposting to wikipedia-l). As to other versions of the release : Do you think it is worth creating a simple, one-paragraph version for the tiny languages, in which we may not be able to find someone conversant in both that language and english? Will there be separate HTML and text-only versions again? I copied the en: page to [[m:How to distribute a press release]], and added a few FAQ at the end. For the meta page, it would be nice to get information on distributing press releases from people outside the US... I imagine it is rather different in Japan, for example. --Sj On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 07:22:41 -0700, Michael Snow wrote: > The press release is now in its final version. The text has been frozen > should not be edited any further. If you have started translating the > press release already, please update your translation to reflect the > final version. > > If the press release has not been translated into your language yet, > please post an announcement on your Wikipedia asking for someone who can > do that. Translation is being coordinated at: > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/PR-1mil > > Different languages may add content that would be of local interest to > media in that language. I would recommend that any such additions be > kept brief, so that the overall press release is not too long. > > We are still planning for the press release to start going out on > September 15 when we reach one million articles. Thank you to everyone > who has helped so far, and to everyone who will help when it comes time > to distribute the press release as well. -- +sj+ http://tinyurl.com/4df8s From maveric149 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 8 17:04:51 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 10:04:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Press release finalized In-Reply-To: <413F15B1.7070900@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040908170451.84496.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> Great work Michael and everbody else who has been working on this! --- Michael Snow wrote: > The press release is now in its final version. The text has been frozen > should not be edited any further. If you have started translating the > press release already, please update your translation to reflect the > final version. > > If the press release has not been translated into your language yet, > please post an announcement on your Wikipedia asking for someone who can > do that. Translation is being coordinated at: > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/PR-1mil > > Different languages may add content that would be of local interest to > media in that language. I would recommend that any such additions be > kept brief, so that the overall press release is not too long. > > We are still planning for the press release to start going out on > September 15 when we reach one million articles. Thank you to everyone > who has helped so far, and to everyone who will help when it comes time > to distribute the press release as well. > > --Michael Snow > > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From thoane at altern.org Thu Sep 9 02:05:27 2004 From: thoane at altern.org (Ashar Voultoiz) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 04:05:27 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Help Request: Changing an Existing Non-Wiki Project into a Wiki Project In-Reply-To: <000d01c49594$b7a8adc0$230110ac@gateway.2wire.net> References: <000d01c49594$b7a8adc0$230110ac@gateway.2wire.net> Message-ID: James Moore wrote: > Greetings, > > I have for the past four years been the webmaster and chief author of the Outcyclopedia, an online reference guide for the gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender community. I would like to revamp the project into a wiki, using articles already existing on the site, any future articles written by myself or contributors, plus articles forked from Wikipedia, per Wikipedia's copyright guidelines, using and granting permissions under either the GNU or Creative Commons License. > > The change from a site using html to one utilizing PHP, MySQL, and MediaWiki would take me into new territory, technical and otherwise. I would therefore appreciate any and all help and advice which may be offered, especially from persons running their own non-Wikipedia wiki projects, such as Memory Alpha or Jewpedia, and of course any other GLBt Wikipedians that may be out there. Thanks. > > Cheers, > > James > > http://outcyclopedia.0catch.com Hello james, Have a look at the MediaWiki software mailing list: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l That's the best place to get answers :o) -- Ashar Voultoiz From thoane at altern.org Thu Sep 9 02:33:16 2004 From: thoane at altern.org (Ashar Voultoiz) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 04:33:16 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Launch of the Wikimedia Commons In-Reply-To: <8b722b80040907094975f3368b@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b80040907094975f3368b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Angela wrote: > I am pleased to announce that a database has now been set up for the > Wikimedia Commons. > > The site is temporarily located at http://commons.wikimedia.org/ until > the project gets its own domain. > > This provides a space for those interested to begin forming the > guidelines for the site, and to discuss how the software will need to > adapt to make the Commons as useful as possible. > > The previous discussions are now linked to from > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Project_plan. > > Batches of files may be uploaded as compressed zip files. Some time in > the next few days, a script will be written to decompress these zip > files on the server side. Please make sure you use appropriate file > names inside the archives. > > Thanks to Tim Starling for creating the database, and to all those who > have contributed to the discussion so far. > > Angela. Hello, In my mind, MediaWiki is not a software to manage a gallery of pictures or media. As I understand the announcment, the community already choose MediaWiki and will just ask developpers to code new features. Basicly developpers will have to write from scratch a gallery system whereas there is already such software under GPL (example: http://pnavy.com/dcgallery/ with dublin data core support). There is so much features that are needed for a media gallery, that soon the dev team will be overhelmed. What will happen when the community will want dublin core metadata, EXIF automatic parsing, e-commerce, XML-RPC, multiple fields search, ogg tags parsing, videos preview ... We don't even have a license system : we rely on using templates instead wich is clearly not a solution in term of search capabilities. A wiki is not a database, it's a tool to create collaborative text. A media gallery is a database. Guess what ? A wiki system is not meant to act as a media gallery. As for the batch zip uncompression, that just lead to easy vandalism (uploading a 3MB zip can easily generate 1GB of data). In conclusion, the "commons" idea have been around for sometime now, we should not start things in a hurry and hope to fix it later. It will just give us a LOT more works. Instead I think we should carefully plan the project needs, do and don't, find an already existent solution and then either use it or enhance it (that's what GPL softwares are all about). cheers, -- Ashar Voultoiz From erik_moeller at gmx.de Thu Sep 9 03:51:00 2004 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: 09 Sep 2004 05:51:00 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Launch of the Wikimedia Commons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9GZsat6hpVB@erik_moeller> Ashar- > In my mind, MediaWiki is not a software to manage a gallery of pictures > or media. Hmmm, kind of a bad naming choice for the software then ;-) > There is so much features that are needed for a media gallery, that soon > the dev team will be overhelmed. What will happen when the community > will want dublin core metadata, EXIF automatic parsing, e-commerce, > XML-RPC, multiple fields search, ogg tags parsing, videos preview ... Each of these features must be judged on its merits. As you pointed out on wikitech-l, the template system provides us with a direct path towards metadata. An existing gallery system is not an option as this is not what we are trying to create here. Users are encouraged, for example, to edit captions as they see fit, or to replace images with higher quality versions. We want to use all the cool features a wiki gives us - recent changes, diffs, page histories, and so on. Wikis are something fundamentally new. Old software concepts do not apply. We need to instead think about how we transfer the benefits of the wiki to different applications. For example, there's no reason not to have a specific editing template associated with a namespace, so that all pages within that namespace have certain defined fields, and still allow diffs and versioning. As for galleries, a tag that accepts a list of images seems like the best solution. For the actual gallery generation we may be able to use some existing code. MediaWiki, in my vision of it, should eventually be capable of intelligently dealing with a wide range of media and enable massive online collaboration on them (it could interface with network-enabled purpose- specific applications like Inkscape or the GIMP to allow several people to work on the same image at the same time). The fundamental core idea of the wiki is not just "a page that anyone can edit", but "a way for people to collaborate on content without barriers." There's indeed no need to hurry. While I find the early launch of the Commons somewhat suboptimal, I am sure that it will evolve together with the software. Regards, Erik From andrew.lih at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 03:59:12 2004 From: andrew.lih at gmail.com (Andrew Lih) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 11:59:12 +0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Fact-index.com financially supports the Wikimedia Foundation In-Reply-To: <8b722b8004090808089dba4b0@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b8004090808089dba4b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ed171fb04090820593fb7df4e@mail.gmail.com> It might be useful to define different tiers of support, and preferred (or dare I say, approved) language that sites like Fact-index.com can use in advertising their "support" for Wikipedia. That would prevent someone in the future from giving a paltry sum and claiming they financially support Wikipedia. -Andrew (User:Fuzheado) On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 16:08:20 +0100, Angela_ wrote: > On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 14:11:51 +0000 (UTC), Walter Vermeir > wrote: > > *Fact-index.com financially supports the Wikimedia Foundation*. Is this true? > > Fact-index have made a substantial donation to the Foundation. Plans > are being made to detail this, and other significant donations, on the > http://wikimediafoundation.org website in future. > > Angela. > > > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > -- Andrew Lih andrew.lih at gmail.com From wikipedia at earthlink.net Thu Sep 9 04:53:35 2004 From: wikipedia at earthlink.net (Michael Snow) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 21:53:35 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Fact-index.com financially supports the Wikimedia Foundation In-Reply-To: <20040909035919.4C6071AC02F3@mail.wikimedia.org> References: <20040909035919.4C6071AC02F3@mail.wikimedia.org> Message-ID: <413FE1CF.6050300@earthlink.net> Angela_ wrote: >On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 14:11:51 +0000 (UTC), Walter Vermeir > wrote: > > >>*Fact-index.com financially supports the Wikimedia Foundation*. Is this true? >> >> >Fact-index have made a substantial donation to the Foundation. Plans >are being made to detail this, and other significant donations, on the >http://wikimediafoundation.org website in future. > Fact-index is a mirror that apparently makes its money by combining Wikipedia content with Google ads. With them donating some of this money to the Foundation, the end result is that Wikipedia manages to raise money through advertising even though Wikipedia itself remains free of commercial advertising. Having your cake and eating it too is an impressive trick. --Michael Snow From zh.wikipedia at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 09:15:42 2004 From: zh.wikipedia at gmail.com (ZH Wikipedia) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 17:15:42 +0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Fwd: Stop zh-tw WP ! In-Reply-To: <3238fb28040909011651b1357@mail.gmail.com> References: <3238fb28040909011651b1357@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3238fb2804090902156d4e8a1@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: ZH Wikipedia Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 16:16:08 +0800 Subject: Stop zh-tw WP ! To: wikitech-l-request at wikimedia.org Plese Stop zh-tw WP (http://zh-tw.wikipedia.org/). We zh WP users just study the automatic conversion work between traditional form and the simplified Chinese word, see also http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:%E7%B9%81%E7%AE%80%E4%BD%93%E9%97%AE%E9%A2%98 and http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Babel/Archive1#Traditional_and_Simpified_Chinese_UI [[zh:user:shizhao]] From jwales at wikia.com Thu Sep 9 10:23:56 2004 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 03:23:56 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Launch of the Wikimedia Commons In-Reply-To: References: <8b722b80040907094975f3368b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040909102355.GL906@wikia.com> Ashar Voultoiz wrote: > In conclusion, the "commons" idea have been around for sometime now, we > should not start things in a hurry and hope to fix it later. It will > just give us a LOT more works. Instead I think we should carefully plan > the project needs, do and don't, find an already existent solution and > then either use it or enhance it (that's what GPL softwares are all about). While I very much understand and agree with what you're saying, the situation is that this is a major pressing need *today*, and there's much demand for even this step forward. If there is some other software that you know about which we could evaluate and test this week, and install next week, that'd be a good thing. But in the meantime, we had to just get the ball rolling. --Jimbo From big-ben at haefft.de Thu Sep 9 15:34:51 2004 From: big-ben at haefft.de (big-ben at haefft.de) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 15:34:51 Subject: [Foundation-l] de.wikisource.org Message-ID: <20040909133454.0C7D31AC018D@mail.wikimedia.org> Hello! We want to set up a German Version of Wikisource. I've already posted the request for a new subdomain here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_new_projects But the side states the following: "Meta-wiki is not really much frequented, therefore it is recommended that you also send a posting to the Foundation-l mailing-list to announce your proposal." So here I am to announce my proposal. To get more information look at the link above. Here I've got a copy of the proposal on meta-wiki: Wikisource in German Link to request on mailing list: Domain name: de.wikisource.org Name of user requesting this language: Kaiser Bob Details: People interested joining: Kaiser Bob, Pythagoras1, Dovi, Xarax Relevant links: - Talk on the German Main Page of wikisource - http://wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:Scriptorium/Language_domain_proposal I hope, that a developer can set this up soon. Goodbye. Kaiser Bob -- cent thru freemehl on www.haefft.de From delirium at hackish.org Thu Sep 9 15:38:32 2004 From: delirium at hackish.org (Delirium) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 11:38:32 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Launch of the Wikimedia Commons In-Reply-To: <9GZsat6hpVB@erik_moeller> References: <9GZsat6hpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <414078F8.5090206@hackish.org> Erik Moeller wrote: >Each of these features must be judged on its merits. As you pointed out on >wikitech-l, the template system provides us with a direct path towards >metadata. An existing gallery system is not an option as this is not what >we are trying to create here. Users are encouraged, for example, to edit >captions as they see fit, or to replace images with higher quality >versions. We want to use all the cool features a wiki gives us - recent >changes, diffs, page histories, and so on. > >Wikis are something fundamentally new. Old software concepts do not apply. > > I don't think that's really true: A wiki is just something you can edit from a web browser. Most of what it does is does in clunkier form elsewhere (editing the pages with emacs and diff'ing using CVS is a trivial example), but wikis make it easier for a non-technical user. This gallery really should have the benefits of both editability and strong database support. Whether it's better to start from an existing gallery system and add editability to it, or start from a wiki and add metadata/EXIF/etc. to it is largely a matter of preference and ease of technical implementation. -Mark From zh.wikipedia at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 00:19:29 2004 From: zh.wikipedia at gmail.com (ZH Wikipedia) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:19:29 +0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Google Grants: Google for non-profit organizations provides 3 months of free AdWords Message-ID: <3238fb28040909171945306105@mail.gmail.com> See http://www.google.com/grants/ [[user:shizhao]] From chris_mahan at yahoo.com Fri Sep 10 00:33:09 2004 From: chris_mahan at yahoo.com (Christopher Mahan) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 17:33:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Google Grants: Google for non-profit organizations provides 3 months of free AdWords In-Reply-To: <3238fb28040909171945306105@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040910003309.85703.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com> --- ZH Wikipedia wrote: > See http://www.google.com/grants/ Is it not the case that we gen enough traffic as it is? What we need is donation money. ===== Chris Mahan 818.943.1850 cell chris_mahan at yahoo.com chris.mahan at gmail.com http://www.christophermahan.com/ _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com/backtoschool From bannedneedle at yahoo.com Fri Sep 10 16:32:31 2004 From: bannedneedle at yahoo.com (Mr Paul Vogel) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:32:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] China censoring Wikipedia? Lying hypocrisy? Message-ID: <20040910163231.78116.qmail@web53607.mail.yahoo.com> Jews and Marxists Censoring Wikipedia On-Line Encyclopedia: The following neutral point of view article at Wikipedia, an on-line encyclopedia, on Cosmotheism has been relentlessly edited and censored by a few Jews and Social-Marxists to slander and mis-lead any readers. See below: '''Cosmotheism''' is a form of [[classical pantheism]] that identifies [[God]] with the ''cosmos'', that is, with the [[universe]] as a unified whole. ==Overview== Cosmotheism asserts that "all is within God and God is within all". It considers the nature of reality and of existence to be mutable and destined to co-evolve towards a complete "universal consciousness", or godhood. [[etymology|Etymologically]], ''Cosmotheism'' differs from 'Pan-theism' in that "pan" is [[Ancient Greek|Classical Greek]] for ''all'', while the Greek word ''cosmos'' means an orderly and harmonious universe. Cosmotheists take this as meaning the divine is tantamount to reality and consciousness, an inseparable part of an orderly, harmonious, and whole universal system. In its broadest sense, the word Cosmotheism may be considered simply as being synonymous with ''[[pantheism]]'', although not all modern pantheists would accept Cosmotheism as a synonym for their own worldview due to the historical association of Cosmotheism with a political movement, [[white separatism]], which some within the pantheist community may find objectionable. According to a Cosmotheist Web site dedicated to the late Dr.[[William Luther Pierce|William Pierce]]: :"''Cosmotheism is a religion which positively asserts that there is an internal purpose in life and in cosmos, and there is an essential unity, or consciousness that binds all living beings and all of the inorganic cosmos, as one.''" :"''What is our true human identity is we are the cosmos made self-aware and self-conscious by evolution. ''" :"''Our true human purpose is to know and to complete ourselves as conscious individuals and also as a self-aware species and thereby to co-evolve with the cosmos towards total and universal awareness, and towards the ever higher perfection of consciousness and being.''"[http://www.cosmotheism.net/] Some claim [[Albert Einstein]] was a Cosmotheist, [http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1982/JASA3-82Seeger.html], along with [[Carl Sagan]], [[Benedict Spinoza]] and other historical figures—although there is no quoted evidence of any of these three claiming to be "cosmotheist" as such, and all could also be said to be [[Pantheist]]. ==Mordekhay Nesiyahu's Cosmotheism== In [[Israel]], Cosmotheism was described by [[Mordekhay Nesiyahu]], one of the foremost ideologists of the [[Israeli Labor Movement]] and a lecturer in its college Beit Berl in Israel. In ''Cosmotheism — Israel, Zionism, Judaism and Humanity towards the 21st Century'', Nesiyahu proposed not to just assume the existence of God, being "prior to all that was created," but to consider God as only being a result of the development of the universe and the consciousness of all of humankind. Divinity in this particular view is inherently a human invention. The development of the divine (or what the believer would qualify as being "the revelation of the Divine") was, in Nesiyahu's opinion, both the condition for a more exalted human functioning and all that bears the fruit that comes out of it. In Nesiyahu's universalist re-imagining of a secular divinity, the universal celebration of Cosmotheism is the basis for rebuilding the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem, and is also a secular ethnically Jewish and a Zionist contribution to all of humankind. ==William L. Pierce's Cosmotheism== ===Origins=== In the United States, ''Cosmotheism'' sometimes refers to a religion adopted in [[1978]] by [[National Alliance]] founder and [[white separatist]] Dr. [[William Luther Pierce|William L. Pierce]]. Pierce affirms his cosmotheist belief in a speech that he once gave entitled "Our Cause": :''"All we require is that you share with us a commitment to the simple, but great, truth which I have explained to you here, that you understand that you are a part of the whole, which is the creator, that you understand that your purpose, the purpose of mankind and the purpose of every other part of creation, is the creator's purpose, that this purpose is the never-ending ascent of the path of creation, the path of life symbolized by our life rune, that you understand that this path leads ever upward toward the creator's self-realization, and that the destiny of those who follow this path is godhood."'' His interpretation of cosmotheism ([http://baldur.libertyforum.net:8079/Our_Cause.txt]) was greatly influenced by several disparate factors: interpretations of [[George Bernard Shaw]]'s play ''[[Man and Superman]]''; strains of [[German Romanticism]]; [[Charles Darwin|Darwinian]] concepts of [[natural selection]] and of survival of the fittest, mixed with the related early [[20th century]] [[eugenics|eugenic]] ideals; and [[Ernst Haeckel]]'s version of [[monism]]. ===Religion, society, and race=== The foundation of Pierce's Cosmotheism was essentially similar to classical monistic pantheism — he recognized no physical difference or separation between human and divine, between creator and created — but with a few differences. Pierce described his form of Cosmotheism as being based on "[t]he idea of an evolutionary universe ... with an evolution toward ever higher and higher states of self-consciousness," and his political ideas were centered on racial purity and [[eugenics]] as the means of advancing the [[white race]] first towards a superhuman state, and then towards godhood. In his view, the white race represented the pinnacle of human evolution thus far and therefore should be kept genetically separate from all other races in order to achieve its destined perfection in Godhood. Pierce believed in a hierarchical society governed by what he saw as the essential principles of nature, including the survival of the fittest. In his social schema, the best-adapted genetic stock, which he believed to be the [[white race]], should remain separated from other races; and within an all-white society, the most fit individuals should lead the rest. He thought that extensive programs of "racial cleansing" and of [[eugenics]], both in Europe and in the U.S., would be necessary to achieve this socio-political program. His [[National Alliance]] was to be the political vanguard and the spiritual priesthood of this program, which was designed ultimately to bring about a "White racial redemption". His Cosmotheist Community Church, which was to be the next step of this plan, was set up in the mid-1970s, alongside Pierce's other political projects — the National Alliance, National Vanguard Books, and the weekly broadcast ''American Dissident Voices'' — all from his mountain retreat headquarters in West Virginia. ===Critical assessments=== Pierce's views have been characterized as a version of early twentieth century racial anthropology, but driven by spiritual, as well as scientific, beliefs. This area of his belief was likely influenced by his early association with [[George Lincoln Rockwell]]'s [[American Nazi Party]]. Others have noted the German Romantic roots that Pierce's ideas shared with [[Nazism]] and have observed similarities between the two ideologies: Pierce's plan for white divinity was similar to [[Adolf Hitler]]'s vision for the ''[[Master race|Herrenvolk]]''; also, his attacks against Jews as "parasites" on white society, who would prevent the white race from reaching its destined godhood by replacing the white elite with their own kind, echoed previous Nazi descriptions of Jewish traits and character. [http://www.natvan.com/who-rules-america/wra.pdf] Other criticisms have been harsher; for example, the [[Southern Poverty Law Center]] has characterized Pierce's Cosmotheism as "an unsuccessful tax dodge". (Followers of Pierce's cosmotheism call many of these characterizations erroneous, some [[National Alliance]] members attributing them to "Marxist politically-correct slander and dogmatism.") ==Related articles== *[[Classical pantheism]] *[[Creativity Movement]] *[[Eugenics]] *[[List of Pantheists]] *[[Pan-atheism]] *[[Panentheism]] *[[Pantheism]] *[[Pseudo-pantheism]] ==References== *''Cosmotheism, Israel, Zionism, Judaism and Humanity - towards the 21st Century'' by Mordecai Nesinyahu (Poetica - Tuvi Sopher Publishing, Tel Aviv.) *''Gods of the Blood: The Pagan Revival and White Separatism'', by Mattias Gardell (ISBN 0822330717) *''The Turner Diaries and Cosmotheism: William Pierce's Theology of Revolution'', by Brad Whitsel; published in ''Nova Religio'' Vol.1, No.2, April 1998. ==External links== === Mordekhay Nesiyahu's cosmotheism === *[http://members.tripod.com/~TheHOPE/mikt2.htm Nesiyahu's interpretation of Cosmotheism] ===William L. Pierce's Cosmotheism === ====Jewish-Marxist and Pan-atheist Criticism==== *[http://www.alphalink.com.au/~radnat/usanazis/cosmotheism.html ''The Turner Diaries and Cosmotheism: William Pierce's Theology of Revolution''] by Brad Whitsel (''Nova Religio'') *''Gods of the Blood: The Pagan Revival and White Separatism'', by Mattias Gardell (ISBN 0822330717) *[http://www.pantheist-index.net/Distortions_Aberrations/Hugenholtz.html ''A Blemish on the Blossom: Pantheism and White-Supremacist Hate Groups''] by Esther Hugenholtz (''Pantheist Index'') *[http://www.encyclopedia4u.com/p/pseudo-pantheism.html Pseudo-Pantheism] (Encyclopedia4U) ====Advocacy==== *[http://www.cosmotheism.net Cosmotheism site] **[http://bks.ark11.net/dpm.htm A Tribute to the late Dr. William L. Pierce] **[http://www.cosmotheism.net/thepath.shtml The Path], by Dr. William L. Pierce **[http://www.cosmotheism.net/onlivingthings.shtml On Living Things], by Dr. William L. Pierce **[http://www.cosmotheism.net/onsociety.shtml On Society] by Dr. William L. Pierce **[http://www.cosmotheism.net/affirmations.shtml An example of a Cosmotheist affirmation of belief] **[http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=3482 Our Cause, A Speech on Cosmotheism by the late Dr. William L. Pierce] **[http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0759609330/102-6676005-3434513?v=glance "The Fame of a Man's Deeds"] [[Category:Pantheism]] Anyone can edit this article, but, active Jewish bigots and Social-Marxists have been deliberately distorting and censoring any factual and accurate information there. Anyone reading here that can help to fight this censorship and this deliberate mis-representation of Cosmotheism can go to this Wikipedia website and do a search on "Cosmotheism" and can go edit and fight this biased and bigoted Jewish censorship and slander of the religion of Cosmotheism found here: http://www.cosmotheism.net Best regards, Paul Vogel aka the NEEDLE http://www.cosmotheism.net __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 16:54:52 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:54:52 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Google Grants: Google for non-profit organizations provides 3 months of free AdWords In-Reply-To: <20040910003309.85703.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com> References: <3238fb28040909171945306105@mail.gmail.com> <20040910003309.85703.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <742dfd0604091009547bafa34b@mail.gmail.com> Hmm, we have too much traffic? Is that like having too much information in Wikipedia? I think the only problem here is that we're not yet a 501c3. On Thu, 9 Sep 2004 17:33:09 -0700 (PDT), Christopher Mahan wrote: > > --- ZH Wikipedia wrote: > > > See http://www.google.com/grants/ > > Is it not the case that we gen enough traffic as it is? What we need > is donation money. > > ===== > Chris Mahan > 818.943.1850 cell > chris_mahan at yahoo.com > chris.mahan at gmail.com > http://www.christophermahan.com/ > > > _______________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping. > http://shopping.yahoo.com/backtoschool > > > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > -- +sj+ _ _ :-------.-.--------.--.--------.-.--------.--.--------[...] From elian at djini.de Fri Sep 10 16:40:11 2004 From: elian at djini.de (Elisabeth Bauer) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:40:11 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikipedia meetup 2005 Message-ID: <4141D8EB.2070408@djini.de> Hello, At ars electronica in Linz Jimbo and I had the idea to hold a Wikipedia meetup next summer. Since people from as many wikimedia projects as possible should be able to participate we decided on Europe as the best place to do this, and we'll be trying to get funding for wikipedians from other continents to join in the fun. Now, the exact location is to be decided. There are several important criterias, like number of local wikipedians, closeness to an international airport, costs and abilities of conference facilities... The details can be found on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_meetup_2005 Where the conference is hosted will be a community decision along the lines of the Olympic games selection: I'd like to encourage everyone to place proposals on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_meetup_2005 with detailed information so we can choose the place which offers the most advantages. Most important are of course conference facilities and dates where they are still free. Since most conference facilities have to be booked long in advance and there will be enough organisational stuff left to do, I suggest a deadline of one month, ending 10th of october. Please translate this posting and make it public in your project so that as many wikipedians as possible have a chance to participate in the discussion and the choice. greetings, Elian From elian at djini.de Sat Sep 11 02:36:48 2004 From: elian at djini.de (Elisabeth Bauer) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 04:36:48 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] new stuff on meta-wiki: ars electronica report and calendar Message-ID: <414264C0.2070105@djini.de> Hiho, The report of Wikipedia at the ars electronica in Linz can be found on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Linz_cyberarts_festival_2004 In Linz we had also the idea of creating a Wikipedia calendar to better keep track of important stuff such as events, deadlines for funding proposals, press releases etc. It's on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Calendar Please use it freely. There's not much in there at the moment, later we could introduce more color codes to separate certain type of events. greetings, elian From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 04:12:00 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 00:12:00 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] new stuff on meta-wiki: ars electronica report and calendar In-Reply-To: <414264C0.2070105@djini.de> References: <414264C0.2070105@djini.de> Message-ID: <742dfd06040910211214427acc@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 04:36:48 +0200, Elisabeth Bauer wrote: > In Linz we had also the idea of creating a Wikipedia calendar to better > keep track of important stuff such as events, deadlines for funding > proposals, press releases etc. It's on > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Calendar This is cool, since we added a calendar to the end of the newsletter at the same time. The newsletter's calendar also includes a few major events from the past year; you can see (and update) its outline at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/NL-1/En%3A#8 Liking the idea of color-coding certain events, +Sj+ _ _ :-------.-.--------.--.--------.-.--------.--.--------[...] From kissall at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 18:52:10 2004 From: kissall at gmail.com (Kiss All) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 13:52:10 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] An urgent Proposal: A fair, effective and free rewarding system for WikiPedia volunteers Message-ID: <384f6ad4040911115265f4b514@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, This idea appeared in my mind when I was in bathroom this morning . And hope I am using the right words and sentences to express my idea because English is not my mother tongue. :-) Proposal: * We ***MUST*** find fair,effective, and free ways to reward, either spiritually or financially, those volunteers who are diligently, consistently creating and editing high-quality articles in wikipedia site family. * And We also **MUST** extend this reward method to any person who directly or indirectly contributed or are contributing to wikipeida site family by any means. == Do we really need this? Absolutely! == By fairly and effectively rewarding those page creating and editing volunteers, we can encourage and enable current volunteers to do even better work and attract more new voluteers to participate in this magnificent, world-wide cooperation which will definitely benefit to our planet in the future . Actually, a positive feedback cycle could be established in this way and WikiPedia would have a model to grow rapidly and healthily: volunteers write/edit good articles--> more people are willing to read them, find they are useful and reward the volunteers --> volunteers get rewarding, either spiritually or financially -->voluteers are encouraged and be able to write more good articles --> ... I am not treating volunteers as experimental white mice here(Remeber I am one of them). But this cycle simply works! Doesn't it? Of course, there are some people don't need any kind of reward to do excellent work, just let them be and provide an option to turn off the rewarding faucet to them :-) == Mission Impossible? Fair, Effective, and Free? == === How to be Fair? === *let all readers/visiters have an equally chance to participate in grading any volunteer and any article (or even any section) in terms of quality and quantiy. * A convenient way for readers to grade current article or section. * A convenient way for readers to grade each volunteer * Or we can just focus the quality of the article, let computer derive the grading of the volunteers from the articles ? No, I don't like this way. Computers are not smart enough to identify real work or junk work currently. And somebody could abuse it if he/she knows the deriving algorithms. ===How to be Effective?=== Simply and easy: Give them Fame! && Give them money! Needless to say, all volunteers deserve fame and money via their excellent work. Again turn off the rewarding faucet to people who don't want those two :-) ==== Fame ==== * Showing their names (even nicknames work well enough for encouraging purpose)explicitly under the title of each article(or even each section if it is peice of enough work), sorted by grading numbers provided by readers/visiters which can be used to identify the quality and quantity of their work * Better organization of the contribution information for individual volunteers. I don't want talk too much about it this time, but the current page for this is a mess. * A centralized monument(a php page actually) carved in the important names and their pictures(if they don't mind) who contributed a lot to wikipedia in history (though it is a short history) * A centralized room to showing current star volunteers with highest grading number along with their pictures if they don't mind. ==== Money ==== * Let readers/visitors have changes to directly donate money flawlessly(1 cent, 1 dollar or one house if they really want) to the volunteers at their own will. * Or let them donate all to WikiPedia and let WikiPida distribute them? NO!NO!NO! Some bureaucrats could abuse their power and ruin the whole direct and fair reward mechanism. We already have the option for visitors to donate to WikiMedia Foundation directly.Don't mess them up. ===How to be free? === It is actually care-free enough for WikiPedia Site family if we use the methods I mentioned above. ===Is it feasible? === I cannot see any technical obstacles to prevent us from realizing this grading-rewarding system. However, we need consult experts for the non-technical issues, I am not a lawyer. And more over, it is not a new idea at all. I saw something similar happening in sourceforge.net. == Its impact on the future== Finally, what is the impact of this open, direct,and discrete working-rewarding model on our world in the future? I would say: A revolution has began! Why? This model can facilitate people to do what they really have interested in while get the reward they deserve if their interests can actually benefit a large group of people in some way. The direct feature of this model also eliminates most of the intermediate costs or overhead which is not unusual in current world. By contrast, traditionally, we have to be employeed by some organizations for a relatively longer time to contribute our wisdom, knowledge, and efforts to end-users indirectly. However, our interests are usually changing and sometimes we are feeling be forced to do something we no longer like to do. The worse thing is that the reward from the end-user are so indirect that sometimes the people between us and the users grab a large portion from it in an amount of we think they do not deserve. The result is quite obvious: we get really frustrated and therefore work ineffectively. Hey! I am not saying this model can completely phase off the traditional work model. The people between the workers and users are indeed necessary for many big products, the presure imposed by employers serves as stimulant for us to secrete more adrenalin to become more powerful and energic than usual, and there is no detour to gain real achievement without loyal to your original faith and interest. What I am really going to emphasize is that some real requirements in our world can be fulfilled better in simpler, directer, and even discrete way. And, We already have paid enough attention to the free spirit of software sharing,knowlege sharing and so on and so forth. It is time for us to see another unadulterated side of this coin: the sharing is also joyfull, profitable, and thus sustainable and scalable. In conclusion, please seriously consider my above proposal and the meaning behind it. Let's put it in roll as soon as possible! I bet it will make a big difference to wikipedia site family, the whole free resource community(no matter it is a idea, a software, a valuable experience,an encyclopedia article, a piece of knowledge or anything else useful to our world), and most important, it may make a big difference to you, my lovely, respectable friends combating in this money? world for the noble ideal of sharing knowlege among the world for free. I am also puting this initial, unmature proposal into page http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/A_Fair%2C_Effective_and_Free_Rewarding_System_for_WikiPedia_Volunteers Please refine it (English is a pain for me) and add your ideas or comments if you are interested. I am waiting for your response...... Best Regards, kissall -- Be good.... From chris_mahan at yahoo.com Sat Sep 11 22:28:01 2004 From: chris_mahan at yahoo.com (Christopher Mahan) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 15:28:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] An urgent Proposal: A fair, effective and free rewarding system for WikiPedia volunteers In-Reply-To: <384f6ad4040911115265f4b514@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040911222801.33563.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kiss All wrote: > Dear all, > > This idea appeared in my mind when I was in bathroom this morning . Personally, no. My reward to volunteering for Wikipedia is that I get to do something mostly fun with mostly fun people. ===== Chris Mahan 818.943.1850 cell chris_mahan at yahoo.com chris.mahan at gmail.com http://www.christophermahan.com/ _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com/backtoschool From the_pokemon_master at hotmail.com Sat Sep 11 23:11:13 2004 From: the_pokemon_master at hotmail.com (Christopher Larberg) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 16:11:13 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] An urgent Proposal: A fair, effective and free rewarding system for WikiPedia volunteers References: <20040911222801.33563.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Seconded. I edit Wikipedia because I want to, not because I'm getting rewards for doing so. I'd like it to stay that way. --Slowking Man ----- Original Message ----- From: Christopher Mahan To: Kiss All ; Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 3:28 PM Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] An urgent Proposal: A fair,effective and free rewarding system for WikiPedia volunteers --- Kiss All > wrote: > Dear all, > > This idea appeared in my mind when I was in bathroom this morning . Personally, no. My reward to volunteering for Wikipedia is that I get to do something mostly fun with mostly fun people. ===== Chris Mahan 818.943.1850 cell chris_mahan at yahoo.com chris.mahan at gmail.com http://www.christophermahan.com/ From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 12 01:45:59 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 18:45:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] An urgent Proposal: A fair, effective and free rewarding system for WikiPedia volunteers In-Reply-To: <384f6ad4040911115265f4b514@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040912014559.59211.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kiss All wrote: > * We ***MUST*** find fair,effective, and free ways to reward, either > spiritually or financially, those volunteers who are diligently, > consistently creating and editing high-quality articles in wikipedia > site family. We are rewarding good work on the English Wikipedia through the featured article selection process. I for one have switched from making a great many small edits and creating a great many small articles to concentrating my attention on just a few articles at a time in order to make them good enough to go successfully go through the featured article selection process. -- mav __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From kissall at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 03:16:14 2004 From: kissall at gmail.com (Kiss All) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:16:14 -0500 Subject: Fwd: [Foundation-l] An urgent Proposal: A fair, effective and free rewarding system for WikiPedia volunteers In-Reply-To: <384f6ad404091120037650da05@mail.gmail.com> References: <384f6ad4040911115265f4b514@mail.gmail.com> <20040911222801.33563.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com> <384f6ad404091120037650da05@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <384f6ad40409112016c2dc20@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Kiss All Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:03:36 -0500 Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] An urgent Proposal: A fair, effective and free rewarding system for WikiPedia volunteers To: Christopher Mahan I know I wrote too much in my proposal and readers will lost in it. I'd like to simplify it as this : 1. I just want to add major authors' names under each article, it is an option for authors. 2. give the authors' option to get direct donation from their readers. Both of them are optional. Nothing more and nothing less. Isn't it better to give more choices to authors of articles? I guess you are one of those persons who don't need any external reward to do excellent wiki work I already mentioned in this proposal. :-). However, would you feel even better if you could see the exciting rating number from readers about your work and their continuous attempt to donate some money to you? It is not late for you to choose refusing themt at that time. People sometimes are too confident about what they are doing and ignore other's feelings and what it is really good for . My current poposal is a typical example. I thought it is a terrific idea. But the responses to it till now are mostly negative. Therefore, I still think it is good to to let authors and readers interact more by providing direct rating facilities . An attempt does not harm anybody I think. Personally, I would like to to see direct feedback from readers of my articles. Just like I know my proposal got a 2 out of 5 :( Anyway, thank you very much for your response in your valuable weekend time. I have the same confident in my this proposal as you do in your wiki editing. I will insist it. Best Regards. On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 15:28:01 -0700 (PDT), Christopher Mahan > > Personally, no. > > My reward to volunteering for Wikipedia is that I get to do something > mostly fun with mostly fun people. > > ===== > Chris Mahan > 818.943.1850 cell > chris_mahan at yahoo.com > chris.mahan at gmail.com > http://www.christophermahan.com/ > > > _______________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping. > http://shopping.yahoo.com/backtoschool > -- Be good.... -- Be good.... From kissall at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 03:16:45 2004 From: kissall at gmail.com (Kiss All) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:16:45 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [Wikitech-l] An urgent Proposal: A fair, effective and free rewarding system for WikiPedia volunteers In-Reply-To: <384f6ad4040911201426eef4cb@mail.gmail.com> References: <384f6ad4040911115265f4b514@mail.gmail.com> <7ce338ad04091118504f1d14a4@mail.gmail.com> <384f6ad4040911201426eef4cb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <384f6ad40409112016878b0da@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Kiss All Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:14:19 -0500 Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] An urgent Proposal: A fair, effective and free rewarding system for WikiPedia volunteers To: Krzysztof Kowalczyk I revoke my MUST here. Thank you for your good comments. I think what I said are better to be optional. 1. let authors choose to appear their names under the articles or not 2. let authors choose to get direct donation from readers or not > The problem with your proposition is that it radically alters how the > system works. While you're of course convinced that the new system > will work so much better, I personally don't see it that way. I agree you. The existing works good enough. I think it would work better with these two more options. > First there's a very flawed assumption that just giving people ability > to donate will create enough dontations to support the system. I may not clear express my idea. I never mentioned the funds to wikipedia. All I concerns are about those volunteers. And I really know even for volunteers, the donation cannot pay them rent or food , not to mention wikipedia sites. > There there's also this fact that, while the issue isn't completely > settled, there is psychological research saying that extrinsic > rewards, contrary to naive but popular belief, not only doesn't > increase performance, but actually lowers it, see e.g.: Why don't we try it if this isn't settled ? All I propose now is to provide two more options to authors. It would be more convincing to see the difference from our own practice rather than showing some extra research. Research results could only be used as references I guess. Best Regards. -- Be good.... From jwales at wikia.com Sun Sep 12 14:21:56 2004 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 07:21:56 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Rewarding volunteers Message-ID: <20040912142156.GA1828@wikia.com> Just to say my usual bit about this, I'm all for rewarding volunteers, and the best way to do that is with kind words, mutual respect, and admiration for good deeds. Mathematical formulas can never replace taking the time to say "thank you" or "I am a fan of your work" when you see an article that you like. Algorithmic reputation systems are always a temptation, just because they are possible. But human reputation systems are much more nuanced and powerful. --Jimbo -- "La n??fle est un fruit." - first words of 50,000th article on fr.wikipedia.org From john at collison.ie Sun Sep 12 16:51:12 2004 From: john at collison.ie (John Collison) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 17:51:12 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Rewarding volunteers In-Reply-To: <20040912142156.GA1828@wikia.com> References: <20040912142156.GA1828@wikia.com> Message-ID: I have to say I agree with Jimbo on this one. I was thinking about Wikipedia in the future for a while and I think we have to be careful where we go from here. Think about it, Wikipedia started out with a simple vision: a free encyclopedia where anyone could edit anything. Now, sysops, developers etc are getting more power, anons less trusted, and there is talk of paying developers. If we're not cautious, we could end up just like a conventional online encyclopedia. Sort of like the way animal farm went :-/. I think we should try and preserve the original idea of Wikipedia (and Wikimedia projects in general). -- John Collison (Ludraman) P.S. Sorry if I've made some mistake here it's my first time posting on the mailing list! On 12 Sep 2004, at 15:21, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote: > Just to say my usual bit about this, I'm all for rewarding volunteers, > and the best way to do that is with kind words, mutual respect, and > admiration for good deeds. Mathematical formulas can never replace > taking the time to say "thank you" or "I am a fan of your work" when > you see an article that you like. > > Algorithmic reputation systems are always a temptation, just because > they are possible. But human reputation systems are much more nuanced > and powerful. > > --Jimbo > > > -- > "La n??fle est un fruit." - first words of 50,000th article on > fr.wikipedia.org > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > From delirium at hackish.org Sun Sep 12 18:44:56 2004 From: delirium at hackish.org (Delirium) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 14:44:56 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Rewarding volunteers In-Reply-To: <20040912142156.GA1828@wikia.com> References: <20040912142156.GA1828@wikia.com> Message-ID: <41449928.6090302@hackish.org> Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote: >Algorithmic reputation systems are always a temptation, just because >they are possible. But human reputation systems are much more nuanced >and powerful. > > I wouldn't mind a combination of the two---for example, being able to say "I think so-and-so has been doing a very good job lately". Wikipedia is getting big enough that I can keep track of a handful of people I personally think are doing a good job, but even finding out who, say, the 10 people I trust most themselves trust is a daunting task, and one that could be simplified by algorithms. Then I could have information like "I don't know this person myself, but it looks like a large number of the people I trust trust him/her", which could be useful. Even slightly more complex systems, like having a few multiple ratings---perhaps one for factual knowledge, one for neutrality, one for quality writing, and one for wikiquette---would be useful IMO. Note that I'd propose this _not_ as a global rating, but as a very user-specific rating, with hopefully a small horizon: it would give me ratings based on what I personally rated people, and what the immediate people I rated did (probably not more than two degrees of separation). It wouldn't give a rating like "so and so is rated excellently in general". So in that sense, it wouldn't solve the "reward" problem that was proposed here, but would solve a different problem---I used to know all the regular Wikipedians (and even review almost all of each day's edits and new pages!), but that is nearly impossible these days, so some algorithmic way to help me deal with the information overload would be helpful. Perhaps "show me all new pages created by people who are not known either by me or by the people I know," and various other such filters. -Mark From ropers at ropersonline.com Sun Sep 12 18:49:08 2004 From: ropers at ropersonline.com (Jens Ropers) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 20:49:08 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Rewarding volunteers In-Reply-To: References: <20040912142156.GA1828@wikia.com> Message-ID: <6DB97B39-04EC-11D9-9BF4-0003931DCE20@ropersonline.com> On 12 Sep 2004, at 18:51, John Collison wrote: > I have to say I agree with Jimbo on this one. I was thinking about > Wikipedia in the future for a while and I think we have to be careful > where we go from here. Think about it, Wikipedia started out with a > simple vision: a free encyclopedia where anyone could edit anything. > Now, sysops, developers etc are getting more power, anons less > trusted, and there is talk of paying developers. If we're not > cautious, we could end up just like a conventional online > encyclopedia. Sort of like the way animal farm went :-/. > I think we should try and preserve the original idea of Wikipedia (and > Wikimedia projects in general). > > -- John Collison (Ludraman) > P.S. Sorry if I've made some mistake here it's my first time > posting on the mailing list! I STRONGLY second that!!! -- Jens [[User:Ropers|Ropers]] www.ropersonline.com From erik_moeller at gmx.de Sun Sep 12 23:24:00 2004 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: 13 Sep 2004 01:24:00 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Rewarding volunteers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9GovFw6hpVB@erik_moeller> John- > simple vision: a free encyclopedia where anyone could edit anything. > Now, sysops, developers etc are getting more power, That happened when? Sysops have no irreversible powers and are accountable to their own peers as well as the entire community. On the English Wikipedia, there is a ridiculously complex procedure for dealing with obvious problem users, which in most cases never amounts to anything. Trolls and morons violate policies with impunity on a regular basis. Just check the history of any controversial article on Wikipedia. Developer "powers" were actually recently reduced by creating a new class of privileged users trusted by the community, stewards. Developers have no privileges when it comes to policy decisions over normal users. Important policy decisions have been increasingly *democratized* in the last few months, and a board was elected in order to replace the previous benevolent dictator model. Before that, there even was a time when Wikipedia had an Editor in Chief who quite aggressively pursued a singular vision of building the project. So, given that the trend is the exact opposite of what you claim it is, I can either deduce that you know nothing about Wikimedia's history, or that you are living in a parallel universe superimposed over own where time runs in the opposite direction. Which is it? > anons less trusted, Anons were *never* trusted, and for good reason. Trust is based on experience, and you cannot build experiences with someone you don't know. Even so, using technological improvements like templates, people send polite messages to even vandals and spammers before they are blocked: Thanks for experimenting with Wikipedia. Your test worked, and has now been removed. Please use Wikipedia:Sandbox for any other tests you want to do, since testing material in articles will normally be removed quickly. Please see the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia. Thanks. We have an almost masochistic relationship to abusers, we tolerate them until it starts to bleed. For every deletion, there is a debate, and when the debate becomes long, that usually means the content isn't deleted (no consensus!). We tolerate the crappiest articles you can imagine about the most insignificant fictional character in a minor video game franchise. If you suggested publicly that as a project with 1,000,000 articles we no longer need to allow people to edit who are not even willing to go through a 15-second-registration-process, the resulting outcry in the wikisphere would cause major floods and earthquakes. > and there is talk of paying developers. Yes, we are actually thinking about running a trial to get certain features *which users ask for* or *which the Wikimedia Foundation and its democratically elected Board of Trustees deem useful* implemented. We might use money donated for that purpose to promote the development of open source software. We might give people who cannot directly contribute to software development the *choice* to contribute to the progress of the software by other means - the horror! Of all the online projects I've ever been involved in, Wikimedia is the most paranoid about power and money. I prefer facts to paranoia, and progress to stagnancy. Regards, Erik From delirium at hackish.org Mon Sep 13 00:00:12 2004 From: delirium at hackish.org (Delirium) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 20:00:12 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Rewarding volunteers In-Reply-To: <9GovFw6hpVB@erik_moeller> References: <9GovFw6hpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <4144E30C.2080407@hackish.org> Erik Moeller wrote: >Of all the online projects I've ever been involved in, Wikimedia is the >most paranoid about power and money. I prefer facts to paranoia, and >progress to stagnancy. > > While I won't entirely disagree, I do think the paranoia serves its purpose. In addition to being the most paranoid, Wikimedia is also the most _successful_ of the online projects I've been involved in---I've seen quite a few other projects go pretty bad after money and power hierarchies began to become heavily involved. -Mark From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 04:14:09 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 00:14:09 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Rewarding volunteers In-Reply-To: <4144E30C.2080407@hackish.org> References: <9GovFw6hpVB@erik_moeller> <4144E30C.2080407@hackish.org> Message-ID: <742dfd06040912211468ac7ca5@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 20:00:12 -0400, Delirium wrote: > Erik Moeller wrote: > > >Of all the online projects I've ever been involved in, Wikimedia is the > >most paranoid about power and money. I prefer facts to paranoia, and > >progress to stagnancy. > > > While I won't entirely disagree, I do think the paranoia serves its > purpose. In addition to being the most paranoid, Wikimedia is also the > most _successful_ of the online projects I've been involved in---I've > seen quite a few other projects go pretty bad after money and power > hierarchies began to become heavily involved. Well-put, Mark. "Stagnant" isn't a word that I normally associate with Wikipedia. As for your previous feature suggestion, > "show me all new pages created by people who are not > known either by me or by the people I know," it emphasizes an important point -- the best filtering features aren't based on global properties that have been applied to a particular *user* or *article* (this article has a Quality Rating of 7.4, this user is Highly Trusted)... since this implies a level of certainty about the judgement of some users which other users may doubt. The best features allow the viewing user to choose whose opinions to aggregate. I think a mark of a good filtering system will be that it both allows normal editors to watch edits by trolls, and allows trolls to watch edits by their favorite antagonists... and allows everyone to watch for edits by vandals. -- +sj+ From esp5 at pge.com Mon Sep 13 05:39:32 2004 From: esp5 at pge.com (Edward Peschko) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:39:32 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Rewarding volunteers In-Reply-To: <742dfd06040912211468ac7ca5@mail.gmail.com> References: <9GovFw6hpVB@erik_moeller> <4144E30C.2080407@hackish.org> <742dfd06040912211468ac7ca5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040913053932.GA6617@mdssdev05> > > > > >Of all the online projects I've ever been involved in, Wikimedia is the > > >most paranoid about power and money. I prefer facts to paranoia, and > > >progress to stagnancy. > > > > > While I won't entirely disagree, I do think the paranoia serves its > > purpose. In addition to being the most paranoid, Wikimedia is also the > > most _successful_ of the online projects I've been involved in---I've > > seen quite a few other projects go pretty bad after money and power > > hierarchies began to become heavily involved. > well, I'll throw in my two cents worth (note - coming from a relative newbie to mediawiki) ... I don't think that mediawiki should necessarily have only one approach to moderation or karma. Mediawiki could support multiple versions if these policies were decided via namespace. The moderation/karma policy for the base namespace could be then be picked empirically. Simply try multiple policies in smaller mediawikis, see which one works best, and then turn that policy 'on' for wikipedia itself. If none of them work out, either make a command decision to keep moderation out or keep working on finding one.. Ed ( ps - FWIW - I don't think its *wise* to have a 'one size fits all' policy for mediawiki. For some things - like controversial discussion - a policy like slashdot's works quite well. Ditto for science and/or research... ) From walter at wikipedia.be Mon Sep 13 11:30:47 2004 From: walter at wikipedia.be (Walter Vermeir) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:30:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Foundation-l] create new function; domain name administrator Message-ID: There are a lot of domain names for all the Wikimedia projects. Some are the property of Wikimedia, some of friends of Wikimedia. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Domain_names I have the impression that the dealing of requests regarding domains is done ad hoc by diffrent people. To make sure that the overview is not lost, the usernames and passwords for those domains, it is not forgotten to renew domains, to be a contact person for friends of Wikimedia who are willing to transfer a domain and for requests for buying new domains, it would be good if there where one person responsible. [[w:nl:gebruiker:walter]] From yann at forget-me.net Mon Sep 13 11:43:37 2004 From: yann at forget-me.net (Yann Forget) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:43:37 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Rewarding volunteers In-Reply-To: <9GovFw6hpVB@erik_moeller> References: <9GovFw6hpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <200409131343.38196.yann@forget-me.net> Hi, Le Monday 13 September 2004 01:24, Erik Moeller a ?crit : > John- > > > simple vision: a free encyclopedia where anyone could edit anything. > > Now, sysops, developers etc are getting more power, > > That happened when? > > Sysops have no irreversible powers and are accountable to their own peers > as well as the entire community. On the English Wikipedia, there is a > ridiculously complex procedure for dealing with obvious problem users, > which in most cases never amounts to anything. Trolls and morons violate > policies with impunity on a regular basis. Just check the history of any > controversial article on Wikipedia. > > Developer "powers" were actually recently reduced by creating a new class > of privileged users trusted by the community, stewards. Developers have > no privileges when it comes to policy decisions over normal users. > > Important policy decisions have been increasingly *democratized* in the > last few months, and a board was elected in order to replace the previous > benevolent dictator model. Before that, there even was a time when > Wikipedia had an Editor in Chief who quite aggressively pursued a singular > vision of building the project. > > So, given that the trend is the exact opposite of what you claim it is, I > can either deduce that you know nothing about Wikimedia's history, or that > you are living in a parallel universe superimposed over own where time > runs in the opposite direction. Which is it? > > > anons less trusted, > > Anons were *never* trusted, and for good reason. Trust is based on > experience, and you cannot build experiences with someone you don't know. > Even so, using technological improvements like templates, people send > polite messages to even vandals and spammers before they are blocked: > > Thanks for experimenting with Wikipedia. Your test worked, and has > now been removed. Please use Wikipedia:Sandbox for any other tests > you want to do, since testing material in articles will normally > be removed quickly. Please see the welcome page if you would like > to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia. Thanks. > > We have an almost masochistic relationship to abusers, we tolerate them > until it starts to bleed. For every deletion, there is a debate, and when > the debate becomes long, that usually means the content isn't deleted (no > consensus!). We tolerate the crappiest articles you can imagine about the > most insignificant fictional character in a minor video game franchise. If > you suggested publicly that as a project with 1,000,000 articles we no > longer need to allow people to edit who are not even willing to go through > a 15-second-registration-process, the resulting outcry in the wikisphere > would cause major floods and earthquakes. I agree with Erik here. We have the same problems in the French Wikipedia. We needed four months to throw out a vandal who never really produced a single good and NPOV article. During the summer, we had several bad users who managed to create a suspicious atmosphere by insults, allegations, religious attacks, etc. And for the last year and half, we have had a troll who, althrough he created some good articles, attacked and insulted collectively other contributors, especially sysops when they tried to correct the situation. He was banned already twice temporarly, including once with a direct permission from Jimbo after the community failed to deal with the problem. He also used suck-puppets to generate support for him. He apparently left last month after being blocked again for a day. > > and there is talk of paying developers. > > Yes, we are actually thinking about running a trial to get certain > features *which users ask for* or *which the Wikimedia Foundation and its > democratically elected Board of Trustees deem useful* implemented. We > might use money donated for that purpose to promote the development of > open source software. We might give people who cannot directly contribute > to software development the *choice* to contribute to the progress of the > software by other means - the horror! Yes, let the trial go, then we can see if it's beneficial or not. Technically, I feel the system is still not as reliable as it should, although the situation improved quite a lot. So maybe that an area where we want to put some money. > Of all the online projects I've ever been involved in, Wikimedia is the > most paranoid about power and money. I prefer facts to paranoia, and > progress to stagnancy. > > Regards, > > Erik Regards, Yann -- http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux From anthere9 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 13 20:11:47 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 22:11:47 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: create new function; domain name administrator References: Message-ID: <4145FF03.4020609@yahoo.com> Yo. Fully agree with you on this Walter. Well, I have been seeing you taking care of such matters for perhaps 2 years now, as well as setting portal pages for country domain name. I would be personnally delighted that you be this person responsible of domain names. What do you think ? Would you be interested ? What do other people think ? Anthere Walter Vermeir a ?crit: > There are a lot of domain names for all the Wikimedia projects. Some are the > property of Wikimedia, some of friends of Wikimedia. > > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Domain_names > > I have the impression that the dealing of requests regarding domains is done ad > hoc by diffrent people. > > To make sure that the overview is not lost, the usernames and passwords for > those domains, it is not forgotten to renew domains, to be a contact person for > friends of Wikimedia who are willing to transfer a domain and for requests for > buying new domains, it would be good if there where one person responsible. > > [[w:nl:gebruiker:walter]] From maveric149 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 13 20:17:31 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:17:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] create new function; domain name administrator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040913201731.53704.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Walter Vermeir wrote: > There are a lot of domain names for all the Wikimedia projects. Some are the > property of Wikimedia, some of friends of Wikimedia. > > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Domain_names > > I have the impression that the dealing of requests regarding domains is done > ad hoc by diffrent people. > > To make sure that the overview is not lost, the usernames and passwords for > those domains, it is not forgotten to renew domains, to be a contact person > for friends of Wikimedia who are willing to transfer a domain and for > requests for buying new domains, it would be good if there where one person > responsible. I was doing this for the 8 or so domain names I bought for the foundation but one day my password didn't work anymore. My request to Jimbo asking for the password to my GoDaddy account was never acted upon (there are several domain names controlled by that account that are not yet owned by the foundation - such as Wikiveristy.org and WikiGIS.org). I'm sure this was just an oversight since my password was near impossible to remember. -- mav _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From ropers at ropersonline.com Mon Sep 13 22:11:19 2004 From: ropers at ropersonline.com (Jens Ropers) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 00:11:19 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: create new function; domain name administrator In-Reply-To: <4145FF03.4020609@yahoo.com> References: <4145FF03.4020609@yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 13 Sep 2004, at 22:11, Anthere wrote: > Yo. Fully agree with you on this Walter. > > Well, I have been seeing you taking care of such matters for perhaps 2 > years now, as well as setting portal pages for country domain name. > > I would be personnally delighted that you be this person responsible > of domain names. > > What do you think ? Would you be interested ? What do other people > think ? > > > Anthere Support. ~~~~ From elian at djini.de Mon Sep 13 23:14:29 2004 From: elian at djini.de (Elisabeth Bauer) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 01:14:29 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: create new function; domain name administrator In-Reply-To: References: <4145FF03.4020609@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <414629D5.5080504@djini.de> Jens Ropers wrote: > On 13 Sep 2004, at 22:11, Anthere wrote: > >> Yo. Fully agree with you on this Walter. >> >> Well, I have been seeing you taking care of such matters for perhaps 2 >> years now, as well as setting portal pages for country domain name. >> >> I would be personnally delighted that you be this person responsible >> of domain names. >> >> What do you think ? Would you be interested ? What do other people >> think ? >> >> Anthere > > Support. ~~~~ Support. --elian From beesley at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 23:49:32 2004 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 00:49:32 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: create new function; domain name administrator In-Reply-To: <4145FF03.4020609@yahoo.com> References: <4145FF03.4020609@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8b722b8004091316495cab663e@mail.gmail.com> Having one person to contact for such matters would be really helpful, and if Walter is prepared to do that, I fully support him having that role. Angela. On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 22:11:47 +0200, Anthere wrote: > Yo. Fully agree with you on this Walter. > > Well, I have been seeing you taking care of such matters for perhaps 2 > years now, as well as setting portal pages for country domain name. > > I would be personnally delighted that you be this person responsible of > domain names. > > What do you think ? Would you be interested ? What do other people think ? > > Anthere From wikipedia at earthlink.net Tue Sep 14 04:09:08 2004 From: wikipedia at earthlink.net (Michael Snow) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:09:08 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Delay in press release In-Reply-To: <20040913114346.D4F2B1AC0447@mail.wikimedia.org> References: <20040913114346.D4F2B1AC0447@mail.wikimedia.org> Message-ID: <41466EE4.4010900@earthlink.net> In connection with the upcoming press release celebrating one million Wikipedia articles, we are working to translate not only the press release itself, but also make the Wikimedia Foundation website available in languages other than English. This is needed for us to make the best use of the publicity and also to help our fundraising efforts. However, this project will carry us through the weekend. Therefore, at the request of the Board of Trustees, I am delaying the distribution of the press release until Monday, September 20. That will be the day for the official announcement, although we may actually reach the million-article milestone earlier. This will allow us sufficient time to get things ready in as many languages as possible. Also, it may be helpful to have the press release come at the beginning of the weekly news cycle, as this may allow for better exposure over the course of the week. Please pass this on to your respective projects and anyone who is planning to help with this effort. In the meantime, everyone who will help distribute the press release could make good use of the time to identify the right contact people at the media organizations you plan to send the press release to. --Michael Snow From walter at wikipedia.be Tue Sep 14 10:30:28 2004 From: walter at wikipedia.be (Walter Vermeir) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 10:30:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: create new function; domain name administrator References: <4145FF03.4020609@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Anthere writes: > > Yo. Fully agree with you on this Walter. > > Well, I have been seeing you taking care of such matters for perhaps 2 > years now, as well as setting portal pages for country domain name. > > I would be personnally delighted that you be this person responsible of > domain names. > > What do you think ? Would you be interested ? What do other people think ? > > Anthere I must say that this was not my intension. I highly appreciate that you nominated and support my for this and also the support from the others. But am not sure of it possible for my to do this. This function would be a highly trusted function. The full setup; The domain name administrator would be; - the key holder of Wikimedia; has access to all domain settings. Change DNS, whois info and so. Be the contact person for that domain. Has the authority to renew domain names and buy new if needed and access to Wikimedia funds . Also the person who does the transfer of domains now owned by friends of Wikipedia. Can also have a role regarding squatted domains. Maintaining a public page whit a overview of all domains whit all useful info about those domains. In direct contact and under supervision of a core Wikimedia foundation person. Like a sysop (at least like that function exist on the dutch Wiki), he is a servant of the community and can only act for so far those actions are authorized by a list of rules defined by the Wikimedia foundation and supported by the community. Autonomous decision for so far not granted by earlier established rules are strictly forbidden. + The benefit of this setup is that one person can do his job without the need to ask to other persons to do things, have wait for responds. Can directly give responds to requests. - The down side is that you put a lot of trust and potential power whit one person. A light version; The "domain name administrator" is only a intermediary. Is the contact person for domain name related requests for all projects. Maintains a list of all domains, there expire data, there status and use, sounds alarm when the are close to there expire data, keeps other people annoying until whatever needs to be done is done. Has a direct contact whit the people of the Wikimedia who can actually do something. + No security risk because the "domain name administrator" has no powers except the power of e-mail. - The usefulness is doubtful. If the function only is to act like a gateway to whoever does it really you can ask why bother. ********************************* I am willing to do it. But i am not very much in favor of the light version because you can not really do anything. Greetings, Walter Vermeir From ropers at ropersonline.com Tue Sep 14 11:52:42 2004 From: ropers at ropersonline.com (Jens Ropers) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:52:42 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Rewarding volunteers In-Reply-To: <9GovFw6hpVB@erik_moeller> References: <9GovFw6hpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <95D0BA26-0644-11D9-9BF4-0003931DCE20@ropersonline.com> John Collison wrote this email: http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2004-September/ 000959.html Erik Moeller replied with this email: http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2004-September/ 000962.html (also see below) Erik, John was making some valid observations. Some sysops and developers ARE getting more power, some Wikipedians DID repeatedly float the (IMHO inane) idea of blocking anon editing and there IS a trial for paying developers. It's true that there are offsetting factors: - Most if not all of the powers that sysops and developers are getting were previously held by Jimmy Wales et al. (who however--as far as I'm aware--exhibited considerable restraint in using them). - The idea of blocking barring anons from editing was not accepted by the wider Wikipedia community and indeed never got very far. - At this stage of our project, where there is a large user base and thus frequent demands to our developers, paying them might simply reflect the economics of demand and supply: Developers can't put in all that time the community cries out for without some remuneration. Thinking about paying developers could be seen as more on par to investing in hardware -- it's paying for a more or less essential component towards the continued success of the Wikipedia. So there are pros and cons. The situation and recent developments can be interpreted differently. John voiced his concerns based on his reading of the situation and his POV. You may see an emphasis on other things and have a different POV. However, for you to categorically state that "the trend is the exact opposite of what you claim it is" and then move on to irony and ridicule (if not sarcasm) -- I feel that that was not very kind to say the least. As John wrote, this was his first post to this mailing list. If this is how you welcome people and invite them to participate in our discussion -- well... I trust you're getting my drift. I may want to add: I strongly seconded John's email -- I feel there IS a danger and temptation for us "two-legged pigs" to become like the human peasants and for some of us to become "more equal than others". (cf. Animal Farm) That that hasn't happened yet is a testament to those intrepid Wikipedians who defended our freedoms by eloquently and successfully making the case to the community that they should be preserved, even as other fruits looked tempting and were hanging low. But just because farsighted people voiced warnings in the past and successfully got the community to choose a better course (where some things even improved) doesn't mean that that was natural or inevitable. I also feel it would be unfair to construe John's email as belittling these past efforts (which maybe could be a reason for your indignation?) -- his words IMHO don't detract from the good things that have happened in the past but are a warning about our present course. Things can go wrong and we as are not infallible, even as a community. That's why we need words of warning like John's and he should be ''commended'', not rebuked for saying them. -- Jens [[User:Ropers|Ropers]] www.ropersonline.com From kissall at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 15:49:42 2004 From: kissall at gmail.com (Kiss All) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 10:49:42 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] I am really tired of registering an account for each MetaWiki site I found Message-ID: <384f6ad404091408491a7f8367@mail.gmail.com> I found it is very tedious or even annoying for users and developers to register an account for each MetaWiki site they encountered. Take myself for example: 1. First, I got an account from wikipedia, that was my first visit to wiki in fact. 2.Then, I found metawiki, was asked to register. Ok, I was still happy to do it to be a more involved volunteer. 3.After that, I found the chinese version of eikipeida. I always wanted to contribute to my own people. I registered an account there without reluctance. 4. Today, I want to add my new feature request and bug report. You know what? A MediaZilla poped out requesting me to register again! 5. I suspect if I happen to access wikidictionary, wikibook, and so on, I have to register again and again... I don't know how many people have the same problem as me. But wouldn't it be better to have a single account to access all sites within MetaWiki? I know there is a passport project from Microsoft dealing with the similar problem. It would be much easier for us to do the same thing within MetaWiki because we don't need to worry about the identify,money issue in the real world. -- Be good.... From delirium at hackish.org Tue Sep 14 17:58:29 2004 From: delirium at hackish.org (Delirium) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:58:29 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] questions about complying with the GFDL Message-ID: <41473145.30802@hackish.org> I had a question about complying with the GFDL in medium-print-run, subset-of-Wikipedia distribution efforts. Say someone wanted to distribute a few Wikipedia articles in connection with some event---the one that came to mind would be distributing some information about Greek culture together with a local Greek festival, but there are plenty of other possibilities. Now, the GFDL requires that if you distribute more than 100 copies of a document, you must also distribute the source (i.e. wikitext) version of the document, and the text of the GFDL itself. I don't see a good way to do this on a smallish pamphlet (say, 5 pages): the text of the GFDL itself would nearly double the size of the pamphlet. The wikitext version is permitted to be distributed electronically (i.e. "see http://blah/ for a source version of this document"), but even that is somewhat onerous, as a small organization may not have the resources or interest in maintaining a mirror of the documents it distributes for the required year. Notably, pointing to wikipedia.org is not sufficient---the GFDL requires that the person doing the distribution maintain an exact source mirror of the document exactly as distributed, "free of added material", and including any changes, so "derived from the Wikipedia article [here]" would not be enough. In googling to see how people handled this, I came across Wikitravel, which has a lengthy rant on somewhat similar issues, and they concluded that the GFDL is simply impractical for pamphlet-type distribution [http://www.wikitravel.org/en/article/Wikitravel:Why_Wikitravel_isn't_GFDL]. Hopefully there are more creative solutions though, as it would be a shame to be unable to use Wikipedia material in pamphlets for logistical reasons. So really to summarize, my questions are: --- Do I really have to print the full text of the GFDL? It's not a very short document relative to a small pamphlet. --- Do I really have to make available the exact source of my pamphlet? Thanks for any suggestions, Mark From chris_mahan at yahoo.com Wed Sep 15 00:34:57 2004 From: chris_mahan at yahoo.com (Christopher Mahan) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 17:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: domain name administrator--> Trust level In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040915003457.50518.qmail@web14022.mail.yahoo.com> --- Walter Vermeir wrote: > I am willing to do it. But i am not very much in favor of the light > version > because you can not really do anything. I agree with Walter. The person who takes care of this needs to have complete power to make any technical decisions immediately. I personally manage 15+ domains and it's a PITA when something needs to be done ASAP and I have to ask for permission. As far as who to trust, I suggest Jimbo put a name or two in a hat and have the board pull one of those out. I also suggest that this should be a paid function (as, say, $100/month) because it is such a nightmare. ===== Chris Mahan 818.943.1850 cell chris_mahan at yahoo.com chris.mahan at gmail.com http://www.christophermahan.com/ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From erik_moeller at gmx.de Tue Sep 14 17:58:00 2004 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: 14 Sep 2004 19:58:00 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Rewarding volunteers In-Reply-To: <95D0BA26-0644-11D9-9BF4-0003931DCE20@ropersonline.com> Message-ID: <9GswPhZCpVB@erik_moeller> Jens- > Some sysops and developers ARE getting more power Aside from the fact that new people always advance within the existing hierarchies - a good thing, I'm sure you will agree -, I see no evidence that privileges have actually been extended in any significant manner. Not on the projects I've worked on. What are you talking about? > some Wikipedians DID > repeatedly float the (IMHO inane) idea of blocking anon editing If people provide logical arguments, then we should discuss them and try to refine our reasoning and our conclusions. I for one remain unconvinced that the larger Wikimedia projects benefit from anonymous editing, and there's little empirical evidence either way. Putting the account creation form on the edit screen would probably filter out many random vandals and spammers while still assuring near-instant participation. "IMHO inane" is quite dismissive - especially given the fact that people have actually provided very coherent arguments here. > However, for you to categorically state that "the trend is the exact > opposite of what you claim it is" I only "categorically state" things when they are obvious, or when I've provided a line of reasoning to do so, as I have here. You have provided no evidence for your above assertion and nor has the original poster. I refuse to pretend that I see insight where I see fear, but I acknowledge that the sarcasm was slightly over the top and apologize for any hurt feelings. Please let's have discussions based on sound arguments rather than on emotional themes from George Orwell books. That is more productive and more respectful towards everyone involved in this project. Sysops and developers fulfill many thankless duties. There's no need to constantly praise them, and they are obviously not beyond reproach. But criticism should be constructive ("actionable") and have a clear, empirically demonstrated basis in reality. Erik From chris_mahan at yahoo.com Wed Sep 15 01:02:50 2004 From: chris_mahan at yahoo.com (Christopher Mahan) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 18:02:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Rewarding volunteers In-Reply-To: <9GswPhZCpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <20040915010250.8649.qmail@web14024.mail.yahoo.com> --- Erik Moeller wrote: > Jens- > > some Wikipedians DID > > repeatedly float the (IMHO inane) idea of blocking anon editing > > If people provide logical arguments, then we should discuss them > and try > to refine our reasoning and our conclusions. I for one remain > unconvinced > that the larger Wikimedia projects benefit from anonymous editing, > and > there's little empirical evidence either way. Putting the account > creation > form on the edit screen would probably filter out many random > vandals and > spammers while still assuring near-instant participation. > > "IMHO inane" is quite dismissive - especially given the fact that > people > have actually provided very coherent arguments here. He did say that this was his opinion. I personally would not have participated in W if anons could not edit. Not because I want to edit as an anon, which I very seldom do, but because allowing anons to edit says something about our embracing the wiki philosophy that resonates with me, and I am sure, a great many contributors. I doubt seriously that any study or set of studies could demonstrate that. > I refuse to pretend that I see insight where I see fear, but I > acknowledge > that the sarcasm was slightly over the top and apologize for any > hurt > feelings. Please let's have discussions based on sound arguments > rather > than on emotional themes from George Orwell books. That is more > productive > and more respectful towards everyone involved in this project. > > Sysops and developers fulfill many thankless duties. There's no > need to > constantly praise them, and they are obviously not beyond reproach. > But > criticism should be constructive ("actionable") and have a clear, > empirically demonstrated basis in reality. Well put. ===== Chris Mahan 818.943.1850 cell chris_mahan at yahoo.com chris.mahan at gmail.com http://www.christophermahan.com/ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From maveric149 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 15 01:31:32 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 18:31:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: domain name administrator--> Trust level In-Reply-To: <20040915003457.50518.qmail@web14022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040915013132.57420.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Christopher Mahan wrote: > I agree with Walter. The person who takes care of this needs to have > complete power to make any technical decisions immediately. I > personally manage 15+ domains and it's a PITA when something needs to > be done ASAP and I have to ask for permission. We could have a petty cash PayPal account of say $3000 that such an admin and a few other highly trusted people (esp a developer) could have access to when needed (a domain is about to expire or a server needs to be replaced fast). If I'm still around, I would help provide oversight for that. > As far as who to trust, I suggest Jimbo put a name or two in a hat > and have the board pull one of those out. I think only Walter mentioned an interest in this so I don't see a need for an extra step. > I also suggest that this > should be a paid function (as, say, $100/month) because it is such a > nightmare. Managing the 8 or so Wikimedia domains wasn't a pain for me. The only issue was keeping up with yearly expirations, but Jimbo has since paid those for long time periods (that was my impression at least since I no longer have access to my GoDaddy account that holds those domains). So I don't think this is the type of thing that we would have to pay a person for. All IMO. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From chris_mahan at yahoo.com Wed Sep 15 01:42:57 2004 From: chris_mahan at yahoo.com (Christopher Mahan) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 18:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: domain name administrator--> Trust level In-Reply-To: <20040915013132.57420.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040915014257.27965.qmail@web14025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Daniel Mayer wrote: > We could have a petty cash PayPal account of say $3000 that such an > admin and a > few other highly trusted people (esp a developer) could have access > to when > needed (a domain is about to expire or a server needs to be > replaced fast). If > I'm still around, I would help provide oversight for that. That would be good. > I think only Walter mentioned an interest in this so I don't see a > need for an > extra step. Except he also said he wasn't too hat on the idea. He just threw it out there as something that would be nice without saying he would want to do it. > Managing the 8 or so Wikimedia domains wasn't a pain for me. The > only issue was > keeping up with yearly expirations, but Jimbo has since paid those > for long > time periods (that was my impression at least since I no longer > have access to > my GoDaddy account that holds those domains). Granted, I might have exagerated. > So I don't think this > is the type > of thing that we would have to pay a person for. All IMO. Ok too. By the way, have moved to godaddy exclusively, and things have become much easier. On a personal note, I would particularly miss your contribution to W if you decided to seek other forms of online enjoyments. I think though that you have to do what's best for yourself. ===== Chris Mahan 818.943.1850 cell chris_mahan at yahoo.com chris.mahan at gmail.com http://www.christophermahan.com/ _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From anthere9 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 15 01:49:08 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 03:49:08 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: domain name administrator--> Trust level References: <20040915003457.50518.qmail@web14022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41479F94.4020204@yahoo.com> Christopher Mahan a ?crit: > --- Walter Vermeir wrote: > > >>I am willing to do it. But i am not very much in favor of the light >>version >>because you can not really do anything. > > > > I agree with Walter. The person who takes care of this needs to have > complete power to make any technical decisions immediately. I > personally manage 15+ domains and it's a PITA when something needs to > be done ASAP and I have to ask for permission. Technical and financial decisions are two different things imho. Technical responsability Walter is mentionning is currently typically one some developers are trusted to do I think. However, the financial responsability mentionned is right now only limited to Jimbo and perhaps to our treasurer. > As far as who to trust, I suggest Jimbo put a name or two in a hat > and have the board pull one of those out. I also suggest that this > should be a paid function (as, say, $100/month) because it is such a nightmare. Hmmmm. I disagree. It is not Jimbo's job to name people. And I am not sure he would like to do that. The proposal should come from the person himself. Not from Jimbo, nor from the board. But from people. A few questions are * Do we have a problem with our domain names handling ? * Is there a need to have one person in charge of this ? * What could the job recover ? Walter gave us his opinion on these three questions. Are there other opinions ? If the first ones are fixed, next questions become * What will the job recover ? * Who else is interested in doing this ? From chris_mahan at yahoo.com Wed Sep 15 02:02:23 2004 From: chris_mahan at yahoo.com (Christopher Mahan) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 19:02:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: domain name administrator--> Trust level In-Reply-To: <41479F94.4020204@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040915020223.51638.qmail@web14026.mail.yahoo.com> --- Anthere wrote: > Christopher Mahan a ?crit: > > --- Walter Vermeir wrote: > > > > > >>I am willing to do it. But i am not very much in favor of the > light > >>version > >>because you can not really do anything. > > > > > > > > I agree with Walter. The person who takes care of this needs to > have > > complete power to make any technical decisions immediately. I > > personally manage 15+ domains and it's a PITA when something > needs to > > be done ASAP and I have to ask for permission. > > Technical and financial decisions are two different things imho. > Technical responsability Walter is mentionning is currently > typically > one some developers are trusted to do I think. > However, the financial responsability mentionned is right now only > limited to Jimbo and perhaps to our treasurer. > > > > As far as who to trust, I suggest Jimbo put a name or two in a > hat > > and have the board pull one of those out. I also suggest that > this > > should be a paid function (as, say, $100/month) because it is > such a nightmare. > > Hmmmm. > I disagree. > It is not Jimbo's job to name people. And I am not sure he would > like to > do that. The proposal should come from the person himself. Not from > > Jimbo, nor from the board. But from people. > > A few questions are > > * Do we have a problem with our domain names handling ? > > * Is there a need to have one person in charge of this ? > > * What could the job recover ? > > Walter gave us his opinion on these three questions. Are there > other > opinions ? > > If the first ones are fixed, next questions become > > * What will the job recover ? > > * Who else is interested in doing this ? I peronally think that the job is highly critical, and should not be left to a volunteer. You should either hire someone who does this already for a living, as a professional, or jimbo should handpick someone he trusts explicitely. I think Jimbo does the DNS stuff now, and probably will in the future. So the point is probably moot. ===== Chris Mahan 818.943.1850 cell chris_mahan at yahoo.com chris.mahan at gmail.com http://www.christophermahan.com/ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 02:32:16 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 22:32:16 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: create new function; domain name administrator In-Reply-To: <4145FF03.4020609@yahoo.com> References: <4145FF03.4020609@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <742dfd0604091419321a5c5f29@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 22:11:47 +0200, Anthere wrote: > Yo. Fully agree with you on this Walter. > > Well, I have been seeing you taking care of such matters for perhaps 2 > years now, as well as setting portal pages for country domain name. > > I would be personnally delighted that you be this person responsible of > domain names. > < What do other people think ? Support. This is not at all an easy job; work will need to be done to scale the paperwork and synchronize regular deadlines. I am glad that Walter is even considering doing this. -- +sj+ From anthere9 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 15 02:36:10 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 04:36:10 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: --> Trust level References: <41479F94.4020204@yahoo.com> <20040915020223.51638.qmail@web14026.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4147AA9A.6000203@yahoo.com> Christopher Mahan a ?crit: > I peronally think that the job is highly critical, and should not be > left to a volunteer. You should either hire someone who does this > already for a living, as a professional, or jimbo should handpick > someone he trusts explicitely. I think Jimbo does the DNS stuff now, > and probably will in the future. > So the point is probably moot. Okay. Well, let's wait for Jimbo's opinion on the matter then. I do not have any strong opinion on the matter either way :-) From wikipedia at earthlink.net Wed Sep 15 03:33:18 2004 From: wikipedia at earthlink.net (Michael Snow) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:33:18 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: questions about complying with the GFDL In-Reply-To: <20040914180123.0036B1AC0312@mail.wikimedia.org> References: <20040914180123.0036B1AC0312@mail.wikimedia.org> Message-ID: <4147B7FE.7070405@earthlink.net> Delirium wrote: > Now, the GFDL requires that if you distribute more than 100 copies of > a document, you must also distribute the source (i.e. wikitext) > version of the document, and the text of the GFDL itself. I don't see > a good way to do this on a smallish pamphlet (say, 5 pages): the text > of the GFDL itself would nearly double the size of the pamphlet. The > wikitext version is permitted to be distributed electronically (i.e. > "see http://blah/ for a source version of this document"), but even > that is somewhat onerous, as a small organization may not have the > resources or interest in maintaining a mirror of the documents it > distributes for the required year. Notably, pointing to wikipedia.org > is not sufficient---the GFDL requires that the person doing the > distribution maintain an exact source mirror of the document exactly > as distributed, "free of added material", and including any changes, > so "derived from the Wikipedia article [here]" would not be enough. It seems to me that it might be possible to comply with this particular requirement by copying from, and using the link to, a previous version of the page. For example, you might want to include the article [[Greece]] on your most recent revision: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Greece&oldid=5864661 By including the full URL of a specific revision, rather than that of the current article, you assure that the linked page will be "free of added material". In connection with the general discussion about flagging revisions for use in a 1.0 print publication, this means that providing a reliable computer-network location is not that difficult. If you rely on Wikipedia to keep its history available for at least the required year, then it may be possible to comply with the GFDL on a print run without maintaining your own mirror site. --Michael Snow From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 05:57:56 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 01:57:56 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: domain name administrator--> Trust level In-Reply-To: <20040915020223.51638.qmail@web14026.mail.yahoo.com> References: <41479F94.4020204@yahoo.com> <20040915020223.51638.qmail@web14026.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <742dfd0604091422574319e994@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 14 Sep 19:02 -0700 (PDT), wrote: > --- Anthere wrote: > > > > Technical and financial decisions are two different things imho. > > Technical responsability Walter is mentionning is currently typically > > one some developers are trusted to do I think. > > However, the financial responsability mentionned is right now only > > limited to Jimbo and perhaps to our treasurer. The bulk of financial decisions (regular renewals) could be planned far in advance and cleared, en masse, with a financial officer. A small emergency fund as mav mentioned should suffice for unexpected needs. > > A few questions are > > * Do we have a problem with our domain names handling ? yes. > > * Is there a need to have one person in charge of this ? no; let every eager person you can find help; but one point-person at any given moment. See my stock reply below. :-) Chris Mahan: > I peronally think that the job is highly critical, and should not be > left to a volunteer. You should either hire someone who does this > already for a living, as a professional, or jimbo should handpick Motivated volunteers can do an excellent job with highly critical tasks. It is nevertheless important to avoid single points of failure. While I support Walter wholeheartedly as someone to manage domain issues, the primary work of such a manager would be to make sure the relevant information was organized and available to others, so that they could take up slack as needed. A small group of interested people, one of whom at any given time is the point person for any sudden decisions, is definitely needed. A one-person group is better than none; larger would be better still. -- +sj+ From anthere9 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 15 06:06:54 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:06:54 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: domain name administrator--> Trust level References: <41479F94.4020204@yahoo.com> <20040915020223.51638.qmail@web14026.mail.yahoo.com> <742dfd0604091422574319e994@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4147DBFE.3080107@yahoo.com> Sj a ?crit: > On Tue, 14 Sep 19:02 -0700 (PDT), wrote: > >>--- Anthere wrote: >> >>>Technical and financial decisions are two different things imho. >>>Technical responsability Walter is mentionning is currently typically >>>one some developers are trusted to do I think. >>>However, the financial responsability mentionned is right now only >>>limited to Jimbo and perhaps to our treasurer. >> > > The bulk of financial decisions (regular renewals) could be planned > far in advance > and cleared, en masse, with a financial officer. A small emergency fund as mav > mentioned should suffice for unexpected needs. > > >>>A few questions are >>>* Do we have a problem with our domain names handling ? >> > yes. > > >>>* Is there a need to have one person in charge of this ? >> > no; let every eager person you can find help; but one point-person at > any given moment. See my stock reply below. :-) > > > Chris Mahan: > >>I peronally think that the job is highly critical, and should not be >>left to a volunteer. You should either hire someone who does this >>already for a living, as a professional, or jimbo should handpick > > > Motivated volunteers can do an excellent job with highly critical tasks. > It is nevertheless important to avoid single points of failure. While I > support Walter wholeheartedly as someone to manage domain issues, > the primary work of such a manager would be to make sure the relevant > information was organized and available to others, so that they could take > up slack as needed. > > A small group of interested people, one of whom at any given time is > the point person for any sudden decisions, is definitely needed. A > one-person group is better than none; larger would be better still. Nod, I agree with all this and Mav proposal for an amount to be set aside in advance strike me as being the solution. Other opinions ? ant From magnus.manske at web.de Wed Sep 15 09:22:08 2004 From: magnus.manske at web.de (Magnus Manske) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 11:22:08 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] questions about complying with the GFDL In-Reply-To: <41473145.30802@hackish.org> References: <41473145.30802@hackish.org> Message-ID: <414809C0.2000801@web.de> Delirium wrote: > > So really to summarize, my questions are: > --- Do I really have to print the full text of the GFDL? It's not a > very short document relative to a small pamphlet. > --- Do I really have to make available the exact source of my pamphlet? > Pragmatic solution would be: * Don't print the source, and print olny a link to the GFDL * Wait for wikimedia foundation to sue you, which it won't, because you're obviuosly acting well within "the spirit" I know that the copyright for each edit lies with the author of that edit, so theoretically an individual author *could* complain, but I don't think that's likely, etiher. Magnus From ropers at ropersonline.com Wed Sep 15 11:57:03 2004 From: ropers at ropersonline.com (Jens Ropers) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 13:57:03 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: domain name administrator--> Trust level In-Reply-To: <20040915014257.27965.qmail@web14025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040915014257.27965.qmail@web14025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5BEE0B3E-070E-11D9-9BF4-0003931DCE20@ropersonline.com> On 15 Sep 2004, at 03:42, Christopher Mahan wrote: > Ok too. By the way, have moved to godaddy exclusively, and things > have become much easier. I hate GoDaddy, because of their advertising and cheapo-upselly-flashy-glitzyness. Not that it's of any relevance, I just had to vent. -J From ropers at ropersonline.com Wed Sep 15 12:44:32 2004 From: ropers at ropersonline.com (Jens Ropers) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 14:44:32 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Rewarding volunteers In-Reply-To: <9GswPhZCpVB@erik_moeller> References: <9GswPhZCpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: On 14 Sep 2004, at 19:58, Erik Moeller wrote: > Jens- >> Some sysops and developers ARE getting more power > > Aside from the fact that new people always advance within the existing > hierarchies - a good thing, I'm sure you will agree -, I see no > evidence > that privileges have actually been extended in any significant manner. > Not > on the projects I've worked on. What are you talking about? You've just answered that question yourself. (Hint: some, POV reference in my prev email.) >> However, for you to categorically state that "the trend is the exact >> opposite of what you claim it is" > > I only "categorically state" things when they are obvious, or when I've > provided a line of reasoning to do so, as I have here. You have > provided > no evidence for your above assertion and nor has the original poster. You have remarkable faith in your own POV and are remarkably dismissive of other's. > But > criticism should be constructive ("actionable") and have a clear, > empirically demonstrated basis in reality. This -- the implicit accusation that John's and my POV are "not in Kansas anymore" -- is what I regard as detrimental to otherwise possible attempts at a constructive discussion. > Erik > -- Jens [[User:Ropers|Ropers]] www.ropersonline.com From jwales at wikia.com Wed Sep 15 15:00:01 2004 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:00:01 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: --> Trust level In-Reply-To: <4147AA9A.6000203@yahoo.com> References: <41479F94.4020204@yahoo.com> <20040915020223.51638.qmail@web14026.mail.yahoo.com> <4147AA9A.6000203@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040915150001.GE3689@wikia.com> Anthere wrote: > Christopher Mahan a ?crit: > >I peronally think that the job is highly critical, and should not be > >left to a volunteer. You should either hire someone who does this > >already for a living, as a professional, or jimbo should handpick > >someone he trusts explicitely. I think Jimbo does the DNS stuff now, > >and probably will in the future. > >So the point is probably moot. > > Okay. > Well, let's wait for Jimbo's opinion on the matter then. > I do not have any strong opinion on the matter either way :-) Right now, Jason handles it, but not in any organized fashion. I can easily assign him a project to make a report on all the domains, expiry dates, current ownership, etc. so that at least as a first pass we have a firm understanding of the current situation. --Jimbo From jwales at wikia.com Wed Sep 15 15:07:05 2004 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:07:05 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: questions about complying with the GFDL In-Reply-To: <4147B7FE.7070405@earthlink.net> References: <20040914180123.0036B1AC0312@mail.wikimedia.org> <4147B7FE.7070405@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040915150705.GF3689@wikia.com> Delirium wrote: >Now, the GFDL requires that if you distribute more than 100 copies of >a document, you must also distribute the source (i.e. wikitext) >version of the document, This is not accurate. What has to be distributed is a "Transparent" copy, not "the source". "Examples of suitable formats for Transparent copies include plain ASCII without markup, Texinfo input format, LaTeX input format, SGML or XML using a publicly available DTD, and standard-conforming simple HTML, PostScript or PDF designed for human modification. Examples of transparent image formats include PNG, XCF and JPG. Opaque formats include proprietary formats that can be read and edited only by proprietary word processors, SGML or XML for which the DTD and/or processing tools are not generally available, and the machine-generated HTML, PostScript or PDF produced by some word processors for output purposes only." Even so, I'm only making a minor point here -- Delerium's more general point is valid, and is precisely the sort of issue that is being worked on (I am told) with respect to FDL 2.0. --Jimbo From rich at richpoints.com Wed Sep 15 20:16:55 2004 From: rich at richpoints.com (Rich Points) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 14:16:55 -0600 Subject: [Foundation-l] I can't seem to unsubscribe from this list Message-ID: <00eb01c49b60$f31a4f90$0802a8c0@LAPCHICKEN> Can someone please help? Thanks -- Rich Points Rich at RichPoints.com http://RichPoints.com From ribamar.sousa at ic.unicamp.br Wed Sep 15 23:01:02 2004 From: ribamar.sousa at ic.unicamp.br (Ribamar Santarosa de Sousa) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 20:01:02 -0300 Subject: [Foundation-l] I can't seem to unsubscribe from this list In-Reply-To: <00eb01c49b60$f31a4f90$0802a8c0@LAPCHICKEN> References: <00eb01c49b60$f31a4f90$0802a8c0@LAPCHICKEN> Message-ID: <20040915230102.GB3865@ic.unicamp.br> On Wed, Sep 15, 2004 at 02:16:55PM -0600, Rich Points wrote: > Can someone please help? > Thanks > -- > Rich Points > Rich at RichPoints.com > http://RichPoints.com > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l Dunno if you could do that yet, but if not: Take Welcome message sent to you when you have subscribed, find for you pass and go to: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/options/foundation-l/ If you no longer have your Welcome message, you can request your passwd in above site quickly. List admin can add above site to footer... - Riba From anthere9 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 16 05:36:33 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 07:36:33 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: I can't seem to unsubscribe from this list References: <00eb01c49b60$f31a4f90$0802a8c0@LAPCHICKEN> <20040915230102.GB3865@ic.unicamp.br> Message-ID: <41492661.7080906@yahoo.com> Ribamar Santarosa de Sousa a ?crit: > On Wed, Sep 15, 2004 at 02:16:55PM -0600, Rich Points wrote: > >>Can someone please help? >>Thanks >>-- >>Rich Points >>Rich at RichPoints.com >>http://RichPoints.com >>_______________________________________________ >>foundation-l mailing list >>foundation-l at wikimedia.org >>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > > > Dunno if you could do that yet, but if not: > > Take Welcome message sent to you when you have subscribed, find for you > pass and go to: > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/options/foundation-l/ > > If you no longer have your Welcome message, you can request your passwd > in above site quickly. > > List admin can add above site to footer... > > - Riba Normally, Rich should be unsubscribed. ant From walter at wikipedia.be Thu Sep 16 09:28:08 2004 From: walter at wikipedia.be (Walter Vermeir) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 09:28:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: create new function; domain name administrator References: <4145FF03.4020609@yahoo.com> <742dfd0604091419321a5c5f29@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Sj <2.718281828 at ...> writes: > Support. > > This is not at all an easy job; work will need to be done to scale the > paperwork and synchronize regular deadlines. I am glad that Walter is > even considering doing this. I have been owner of several domains. I did not have the impression it is very complicated or difficult. The most important thing is to not forget witch registrator you have used, the password of it. And to renew it on time. The domains wikipedia.ca and wikipedia.us are squatted long after the where listed on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Domain_names for a long time. This is because of the absence of a domain name administrator. I know Branko Collin is now attempting to transfer wikipedia.nl to Wikimedia. I have also a domain to transfer. And I hope that it is not forgotten to renew wikipedia.be, a domain I earlier have hand over to Wikimedia. I am pesimistic about the current way of dealing whit this. There is need of more internal organisation about who does what and clear contact persons. Most Wiki's or even the Wikimedia Foundation does not have a clear way of contact like for example the Dutch and German wiki. I will be offline for 2 weeks. It is time for my annual internet- disintoxication. Greetings, Walter Vermeir From anthere9 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 16 09:51:10 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 02:51:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Meta goings on Message-ID: <20040916095110.26803.qmail@web41812.mail.yahoo.com> I have been trying to think about the past days issues. Fuzheado and others mentionned the goings-on as the place they go to when they want to be kept updated. I was glad to hear that, because I had the feeling this page was not very much used. If it is, then it is worth :-) I'll revive a discussion we had with Erik and Mav on this goings-on issue, related to the "news" issue. The "news" is the place where we keep track of relevant events in a chronological manner. Typically, we find news such as - xx.wikipedia reached 10000 articles - zz.wiktionary switched to utf today - there was a meeting in city tt today - we received the prize pp - download time planned today Currently, these news are very short (not detailed) with links. The audience is "contributors" and "people outside the project". The display is actually a sort of a weblog. Basically, it is not translated, but it is usually written in simple english. The "goings-on" is the place where we mention events or discussions. This is a lot "internal kitchen" which imho is none of the business of external readers. The information is first sorted by "type", then a little bit by "date". We had hoped that the information would be translated on local goings-on, but it is just not done, even on big wikipedias such as the english one. There is no easy navigation between languages. The information is not as short as on the "news". Often, a short summary explains the issue itself. It is not always written in simple english. ----------------------- My questions Do you think the "news" and the "goings-on" should merged ? Or that one should be made the subset of the other ? How do we manage the overlap of information ? It seems to me that the current goings-on subsections are a bit confusing. I often hesitate between 2 sections when I want to add an information. Should we keep the "by topic" classification ? Or switch to another type of classification ? If we do keep "by topic", should we keep the current classification or is there a better proposal ? Should we try to identify timeline better ? Either by organising goings-on according to "date of addition" or introducing more date references in the "by topic" sections ? How could we advertise goings-on better so that people not only think of reading it, but also to update it ? I think it is very important that we do not have to write dozen of times the same information in several places. This is a total loss of time and energy. Translation is basically non existent. We have three options 1) We do not even try to translate and we try to keep to simple english -> It think this is not a good move 2) We have an english version on meta, and translations on local project -> We tried that for 6 months, obviously it does not work 3) We have all translations on meta -> Translation requests page on meta seems to be working quite well now. What would you think of trying goings-on translation and giving up local translation entirely ? If translations are done on meta, how could we better advertise meta goings-on on each local project ? How to tell those new ones that there is another life beside local project and that they are welcome to join ? Links in welcome messages ? Improvement in the recent changes editorial sections ? Promoting adding links in local pumps ? In news ? Adding a link in the menu bar ? All this would be much easier if meta was more multilingual, with language preference for menu, and easier navigation between languages (rather than awkard templates). There were discussions about doing this in the software ? Is there any news of this ? Is someone interested in doing it ? If so, when can we have hope ? Errrr... what would motivate the developper to do so ? Who can help improving all this ? May I have chocolate ice-cream on top ? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! From beesley at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 16:48:11 2004 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:48:11 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikispecies FAQ Message-ID: <8b722b800409160948a83f941@mail.gmail.com> I have attempted to consolidate and expand upon the answers to many of the concerns raised about Wikispecies on the Wikipedia-l mailing list over the last few days. Please see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikispecies_FAQ . The page includes both questions specific to Wikispecies, as well as the wider issues concerning the decision making processes of the Wikimedia Board, including the following questions: 1 What is Wikispecies? 2 Is Wikispecies a fork of Wikipedia? 3 Why is Wikispecies not part of Wikipedia? 4 Why is Wikispecies not part of the Wikimedia Commons? 5 What happens if people start writing encyclopedia articles on Wikispecies? 6 What if people want Wikiwar, Wikichemistry etc 7 Was there consensus on starting this project? 8 Was Wikispecies a board decision? 9 Where was this announced? 10 Why was the full log of the meeting not published? 11 What is the next step for Wikispecies? Angela. From beesley at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 18:59:23 2004 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:59:23 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Fundraising drive meeting Message-ID: <8b722b8004091611595f9992d2@mail.gmail.com> To coincide with the international press release being made on Monday, Wikimedia will be holding a cross-project fundraising drive. The details of this are not yet decided. If you would like to contribute to the decision, there will be a meeting on the #wikimedia IRC channel (see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_channels ). The meeting will begin at 20:00 (UTC) (see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Timezone_conversion ) on Friday 17 September, 2004. If you have any points you would like to make before the meeting, or if you can not come to the meeting, please write them on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_meeting%2C_September_2004 . The chat will be logged to Meta for those unable to be there. Angela. From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 21:33:29 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:33:29 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Fundraising drive meeting, blurbed In-Reply-To: <8b722b8004091611595f9992d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b8004091611595f9992d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <742dfd0604091614332e52bd0d@mail.gmail.com> Blurb-style, for alerts: * Fri, Sept 17, 20:00 UTC -- WMF fundraiser discussion on #wikimedia [IRC] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_meeting%2C_September_2004 Announcement-style, for translation: Wikimedia is having a fundraiser next week, following our press release. [1], [2] We are discussing this on the #wikimedia IRC channel on Friday, September 17, at 20:00 UTC. [3] Comments, summaries, and chat logs can be found on meta. [4] [1] "fundraiser" : A public request for donations over a period of time. [2] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_press_releases/One_million_Wikipedia_articles [3] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_channels [4] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_meeting%2C_September_2004 ---- Thanks for the announcement, Angela. +sj+ From anthere9 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 17 01:50:10 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 03:50:10 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Projects references Message-ID: <414A42D2.6040402@yahoo.com> Hi all, There are yet some information to fill on that page : http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_projects It would be nice if more holes were filled up. Thanks :-) ant From maveric149 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 17 10:18:59 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 03:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] New Fundraising page under development In-Reply-To: <20040916095110.26803.qmail@web41812.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040917101859.11332.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> See: http://wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising and http://wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising/USD Major new features *Mostly in wiki text now (use of templates) *Ability to create new pages at will (notice the translated pages) *HTML can be used if encapsulated in (thanks Brion!) *Separate pages for one time, monthly, and yearly donations (only USD implemented so far) The amounts and tier scheme should not be considered official payment options ; they are just my working suggestion. The goal is to have everything ready by the time the fund drive starts on Monday. Comments welcome either here or at the Friday IRC meeting. -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav) _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From erik_moeller at gmx.de Fri Sep 17 12:17:00 2004 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: 17 Sep 2004 14:17:00 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikidata: wiki-style databases Message-ID: <9H3yyhCCpVB@erik_moeller> Excerpt from http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata Wikidata is a proposed wiki-like database for various types of content. This project requires significant changes to the software (or possibly a completely new software) but has the potential to centrally store and manage data from all Wikimedia projects, and to radically expand the range of content that can be built using wiki principles. Imagine that you can edit the content of an infobox on Wikipedia (e.g. the country box for Germany) with one click, that you get an edit form specific to the infobox you are editing, and that other Wikipedias automatically and immediately use the same content (unless it is local and needs to be translated). Imagine that some data in an article can be automatically updated in the background, without any work from you - whether it is the development of a company stock, or the number of lines of code in an open source project. Imagine that you can easily search wiki-databases on a variety of subjects, without knowing anything about wikis. This project is separate from the Wikimedia Commons, because a Wikidata database does not necessarily have to be useful for another Wikimedia project, and because it is larger in scope. Applications Astronomy - '''space.wikidata.org''' (spc.wikidata.org) * astronomical objects * constellations * craters * observatories and telescopes * surveys * space missions Society - '''society.wikidata.org''' * Schools and universities * Cities, Countries, Subdivisions * Ethnic groups * Radio and television stations ... ---------------------------------------- Jimmy has just registered wikidata.org. We both agree that such a project makes sense. I've had similar ideas before, but the (IMHO premature) existence of Wikispecies has compelled me to put some of this down and develop the idea further. There's a GUI mock-up on the meta page of what data entry could look like, and there's a (very rough) proposed implementation strategy. If someone is willing to do so, it may make sense to create a proof-of-concept from scratch. I'm putting this idea out there for now so that it can be picked up at any later time. This is not urgent in any way, but it could open up a huge new range of projects where Wikimedia can compete with proprietary content producers. (Oh, and corporate users of MediaWiki would love us for this.) ---------------------------------------- I see two immediate consequences for us: 1) I believe that, if we do a database redesign, the needs of a project like Wikidata should be considered; that is, we should come up with an abstract scheme that allows storage and revision-handling for many different data structures. Otherwise we'll have to do another huge conversion later. 2) For Wikispecies, I suggest that those involved with the project make sure that all data entered into the wiki is in a *structured form* so that it can then later be easily converted into a real database structure. Regards, Erik From delirium at hackish.org Fri Sep 17 17:21:04 2004 From: delirium at hackish.org (Delirium) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:21:04 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: domain name administrator--> Trust level In-Reply-To: <20040915020223.51638.qmail@web14026.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040915020223.51638.qmail@web14026.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <414B1D00.8080109@hackish.org> Christopher Mahan wrote: >I peronally think that the job is highly critical, and should not be >left to a volunteer. You should either hire someone who does this >already for a living, as a professional, or jimbo should handpick >someone he trusts explicitely. I think Jimbo does the DNS stuff now, >and probably will in the future. >So the point is probably moot. > > If it's already taken care of, it is indeed moot, but I think all that's really needed is a responsible volunteer who can be trusted to be contactable and keep the information in order. What we really need is to make sure we have all the information when it's needed, so if a developer were redoing our DNS setup, and needed some stuff changed, they would be able to get the information and access they needed. It's mostly having a dozen different people registering different domains at different registrars that would really be a mess. -Mark From anthere9 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 17 17:46:32 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:46:32 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] meta main page refactoring Message-ID: <414B22F8.50502@yahoo.com> I made some experiment on fr, and integrated the goings-on in the community page. You can have a first look here : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia%3APortail_communaut%C3%A9 The idea is that the community page hosts the ongoing information (at least the most recent one). A link allow to easily go to history. The edition follow a timeline. Most recent on top. The beginning of the line, in bold, indicate roughly the type of topic (Foundation, Tech, New project, Publishing etc...). Of course, on meta, the community page is ... the main page. So, roughly, on one side, we would have the ongoing information, on the other side, the permanent references. Add a pinch of rework on the various "current events", "news" and other announcements, plus a big spoon of translation... What do you think ? Ant From maveric149 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 17 18:07:01 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] meta main page refactoring In-Reply-To: <414B22F8.50502@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040917180701.48538.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> Sounds good to me. :) --- Anthere wrote: > I made some experiment on fr, and integrated the goings-on in the > community page. You can have a first look here : > http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia%3APortail_communaut%C3%A9 > > The idea is that the community page hosts the ongoing information (at > least the most recent one). A link allow to easily go to history. > > The edition follow a timeline. Most recent on top. The beginning of the > line, in bold, indicate roughly the type of topic (Foundation, Tech, New > project, Publishing etc...). > > Of course, on meta, the community page is ... the main page. > > So, roughly, on one side, we would have the ongoing information, on the > other side, the permanent references. > > Add a pinch of rework on the various "current events", "news" and other > announcements, plus a big spoon of translation... > > What do you think ? > > Ant > > > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From anthere9 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 17 18:58:02 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:58:02 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: meta main page refactoring References: <414B22F8.50502@yahoo.com> <20040917180701.48538.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <414B33BA.8020208@yahoo.com> Neat :-) Elian is interested as well. I think that once the press release is on its good way; meta is gonna undergo a little clean up :-) Daniel Mayer a ?crit: > Sounds good to me. :) > > > --- Anthere wrote: > > >>I made some experiment on fr, and integrated the goings-on in the >>community page. You can have a first look here : >>http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia%3APortail_communaut%C3%A9 >> >>The idea is that the community page hosts the ongoing information (at >>least the most recent one). A link allow to easily go to history. >> >>The edition follow a timeline. Most recent on top. The beginning of the >>line, in bold, indicate roughly the type of topic (Foundation, Tech, New >>project, Publishing etc...). >> >>Of course, on meta, the community page is ... the main page. >> >>So, roughly, on one side, we would have the ongoing information, on the >>other side, the permanent references. >> >>Add a pinch of rework on the various "current events", "news" and other >>announcements, plus a big spoon of translation... >> >>What do you think ? >> >>Ant >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>foundation-l mailing list >>foundation-l at wikimedia.org >>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l >> > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 18 02:10:57 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:10:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] New fundraising page version Message-ID: <20040918021057.71969.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> Still working on http://wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising and its subpages. Per Friday's meeting, here is my suggested tier scheme for the currency-specific versions of http://wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising/USD/monthly and http://wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising/USD/yearly MONTHLY Tier USD JPY EUR CAD GBP 1 2.5 300 2 3.5 1.5 2 5 500 4 7 3 3 10 1100 8 15 5 4 15 1500 10 20 8 5 20 2000 15 25 10 6 25 3000 20 30 15 7 35 4000 30 45 20 8 50 6000 40 65 30 9 70 8000 60 90 40 10 100 11000 80 130 55 YEARLY Tier USD JPY EUR CAD GBP 1 30 3600 24 42 18 2 60 6000 48 84 36 3 120 13200 96 180 60 4 180 18000 120 240 96 5 240 24000 180 300 120 6 300 36000 240 360 180 7 420 48000 360 540 240 8 600 72000 480 780 360 9 840 96000 720 1080 480 10 1200 132000 960 1560 660 Whatever we use, I would like to have the yearly amounts be exactly 12 times the monthly ones but will do whatever most people want. NOTE: PayPal recognizes at most 10 options and the above are *not* exact currency conversions; a good deal of rounding - sometimes up, sometimes down - was used on many values. If there are no suggestions for improvement, I'll go ahead and start to implement the above in 24 hours (first for English, then for the other languages; translators can start work now by using the visible text as a guide). The handful of people who have WMF wiki accounts should feel free to suggest changes by making them (I plan to mirror each of these pages on Meta once everything settles down; but that is just too much work right now). NOTE: I already plan to add more explanatory text. Any suggestions welcome. See aslo: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Fundraising_pages -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Sat Sep 18 02:39:52 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 22:39:52 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] New fundraising page version In-Reply-To: <20040918021057.71969.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040918021057.71969.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <742dfd0604091719397cffd8bf@mail.gmail.com> Perhaps fewer than 10 options would also work? Anything over 6 starts to make my head spin. I can't remember seeing so many options on many donation forms in the past. SJ From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 18 02:45:21 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:45:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] New fundraising page version In-Reply-To: <742dfd0604091719397cffd8bf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040918024521.86204.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote: > Perhaps fewer than 10 options would also work? Anything over 6 starts > to make my head spin. I can't remember seeing so many options on many > donation forms in the past. I agree - but which of the current tiers should be dropped? We must balance information overload with giving people choice. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Sat Sep 18 03:48:09 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 23:48:09 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] New fundraising page version In-Reply-To: <20040918024521.86204.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> References: <742dfd0604091719397cffd8bf@mail.gmail.com> <20040918024521.86204.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <742dfd06040917204828bbb48d@mail.gmail.com> 5, 10, 20, 35, 50, 100. On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:45:21 -0700 (PDT), Daniel Mayer wrote: > --- Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote: > > Perhaps fewer than 10 options would also work? Anything over 6 starts > > to make my head spin. I can't remember seeing so many options on many > > I agree - but which of the current tiers should be dropped? -- +sj+ From erik_moeller at gmx.de Sat Sep 18 05:53:00 2004 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: 18 Sep 2004 07:53:00 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [Mediawiki-l] Special-purpose MediaWiki clones, relation to MediaWiki family In-Reply-To: <414B397B.3030806@CRNano.org> Message-ID: <9H7zgcfCpVB@erik_moeller> Chris- > Yes, I was thinking of the Wikimedia Foundation's projects. Would > Wise-Nano or Nanopedia (the hoped-for end product) be a good addition to > that group of projects? > If my site uses a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike license, does > that fulfill the Gnu license, or do I have to include Gnu boilerplate on > any text I copy from a Gnu'd site? 1) The appropriate list to discuss whether a particular project can be part of the Wikimedia set of projects is http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l I've therefore CC'd my response there. 2) Generally, Wikimedia projects are very broad. There is only one notable exception to that rule, the recently created Wikispecies (which is why I think it should be incorporated into a larger Wikidata project). It has been proposed in the past to have a "Wikipolicy" project as a sort of open brainstorming space for determining useful political policies on various issues. That might be an idea worth developing further, but I would oppose a narrow project like Wise-Nano. 3) All text-centric projects are under the GNU FDL (Wikispecies licensing is not decided yet), so that would have to be the license to use. Regards, Erik From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Sat Sep 18 00:39:29 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:39:29 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] [Quarto] The first Wikimedia newsletter is finished Message-ID: <742dfd06040917173934a99c59@mail.gmail.com> Hello all, Wikimedia Quarto #1 is finished. It is being translated; please help if you can. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/NL-1/En%3A - Sj -- [[m:User:Sj]] ~ Huo dao lao, xue dao lao, hai you san fen xue budao From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 18 11:57:25 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:57:25 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Multiple recipients issue Message-ID: <414C22A5.5030103@yahoo.com> Each time a mail is sent to many lists at the same time, even from registered users, the mail is stopped and requires approval from the admin of the list. Is there a way to fix this ? Thanks Anthere Admin of this list... From beesley at gmail.com Sat Sep 18 15:33:30 2004 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 16:33:30 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Fundraising drive 2004 Message-ID: <8b722b800409180833684c3cd6@mail.gmail.com> Wikimedia are holding a cross-project fundraising drive from September 20 to October 3. We hope to raise $50,000 during this two week period. Donations can be made via the new fundraising pages at http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising which are being finalized this weekend. This was discussed at a meeting yesterday. A summary is at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_meeting%2C_September_2004 and the full log is at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_meeting%2C_September_2004/Log The fundraising drive will be publicized via a site notice, which will read: "Wikimedia Fundraising Drive 2004. Help us raise $50,000. See our fundraising page for details." This default can be translated by editing [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice]] on your own wiki. See http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_site_notice for further instructions. If the message is protected and your wiki has no admins, please translate it on [[MediaWiki talk:Sitenotice]] of your own wiki and ask a steward to make the edit for you at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_permissions#Fundraising_notices Please translate this message and ensure people on your project are aware of it. Thank you. Angela From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Sat Sep 18 22:38:51 2004 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 00:38:51 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Proposal for multilingual coordination on foundation website Message-ID: <414CB8FB.7030909@laposte.net> Hello. Sorry if this has been discussed before, or the place would be better on meta (in which case could someone post there and/or gimme the appropriate url? :) Here's a (rough) proposal for managing different language of pages, heavily based on [[m:Translation requests]]. When someone creates a new page (not translate an existing one), s/he creates two pages like that: * My page (title in original language) * My page/ In the first page, put link the 2nd, stating that's the original language. Then fill in 2nd. Maybe put timestamps of last change on 1st so easy to check when original changed. When someone translates ''My page'' to language xx, do translation in [[My page/xx]], and link from [[My page]]. When writing another page that links to ''My page'', try to link to [[My page/xx]]. If nothing, link to [[My page]] - it'll make people want to translate ''My page'', and point the page does exist - though not (yet) in language you'd want. If you want to link to a page you know doesn't exist, just link to [[Future page]], without /. This way, when [[Future page]] does get created, ''what links here'' will tell us which links need to be fixed to correct language. I hope it's clear lol. The benefits i see are: * when translating another document, easy to know which articles are translations of articles - either [[link/]], and if red [[link]] (assuming original link is not broken) * each page have a ''disambiguation''-like page, to link all versions and not forget a page here & there :) * you won't have someone translate [[Board]] to [[Conseil d'administration]] and someone else to [[Board/fr]], and thus don't need to check broken links or duplicates and whatever * software could prolly (though developers will know better'an me ;p) be tweaked to check for [[article/]] when someone asks for [[article]], and fallback on latter if not found - thus one day we can link straight to [[article]] On the bad side: * page title is always ''original language'' title, whatever the language the page actually is Nicolas 'Ryo' From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 19 03:07:59 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 05:07:59 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Proposal for multilingual coordination on foundation website References: <414CB8FB.7030909@laposte.net> Message-ID: <414CF80F.4000706@yahoo.com> Nicolas Weeger a ?crit: > Hello. > > Sorry if this has been discussed before, or the place would be better on > meta (in which case could someone post there and/or gimme the > appropriate url? :) > > Here's a (rough) proposal for managing different language of pages, > heavily based on [[m:Translation requests]]. > > When someone creates a new page (not translate an existing one), s/he > creates two pages like that: > * My page (title in original language) > * My page/ > > In the first page, put link the 2nd, stating that's the original > language. Then fill in 2nd. Maybe put timestamps of last change on 1st > so easy to check when original changed. > When someone translates ''My page'' to language xx, do translation in > [[My page/xx]], and link from [[My page]]. > > When writing another page that links to ''My page'', try to link to [[My > page/xx]]. If nothing, link to [[My page]] - it'll make people want to > translate ''My page'', and point the page does exist - though not (yet) > in language you'd want. > > If you want to link to a page you know doesn't exist, just link to > [[Future page]], without /. This way, when [[Future page]] does get > created, ''what links here'' will tell us which links need to be fixed > to correct language. > > I hope it's clear lol. > > The benefits i see are: > * when translating another document, easy to know which articles are > translations of articles - either [[link/]], and if red > [[link]] (assuming original link is not broken) > * each page have a ''disambiguation''-like page, to link all versions > and not forget a page here & there :) > * you won't have someone translate [[Board]] to [[Conseil > d'administration]] and someone else to [[Board/fr]], and thus don't need > to check broken links or duplicates and whatever > * software could prolly (though developers will know better'an me ;p) be > tweaked to check for [[article/]] when someone asks > for [[article]], and fallback on latter if not found - thus one day we > can link straight to [[article]] > > On the bad side: > * page title is always ''original language'' title, whatever the > language the page actually is > > Nicolas 'Ryo' Hmmm Well, I think you are suggesting this by reference of the newsletter and the wikimedia site translation. This could work for some translations I guess. But I see two problems with this : *the title being in original language is problematic. If the original language is in japanese, that means all I will see from this page title is ?????/fr. I fear it is not very informative to me to help me guess what is on the page. *at least on the wmf site, I can not really say which article is the original one. Languages are alternatively worked on. Similarly, if I refer to the newsletter, though I wrote a big part of it in french, which was translated in english by someone else, the version of the newsletter considered original was the english one... even though the original text was french. When the english text was edited, I had to edit back the "original" text in french, so it could fit the english text. After a while, this gets very confusing :-) This mix of origin does not goes much in the direction of having original and original/fr. But for other situations (true translations), that might work yes. From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Sun Sep 19 07:48:15 2004 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 09:48:15 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Proposal for multilingual coordination on foundation website In-Reply-To: <414CF80F.4000706@yahoo.com> References: <414CB8FB.7030909@laposte.net> <414CF80F.4000706@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <414D39BF.9060305@laposte.net> > *the title being in original language is problematic. If the original > language is in japanese, that means all I will see from this page title > is ?????/fr. > I fear it is not very informative to me to help me guess what is on the > page. Well, if you don't understand japanese, you'll need to wait for en: or fr: or translation anyway :) So not knowing what the title means isn't that harmful, is it? And actually, we could also do something like: create [[My page/fr:]] as a redirect to [[Ma page]]. We'll then know that ''My page'' does exist in french, make it easy to find it through the redirect, but still have a meaningful title. And/or, for ''static'' pages, once translated, we can move'em, and if required use bots to fix links (or fix manually) > *at least on the wmf site, I can not really say which article is the > original one. Languages are alternatively worked on. But at some point you need to decide ONE version is the base one, imo. Else, when we'll have 25+ languages, it'll be a real ugly mess to follow changes. For instance en: makes a draft, translated in fr: ja: de:, then ja: gets an idea, changes something in ja:, other languages need to synch, then de: had another idea and changed something else and.... you get the point :) Ryo From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 19 12:30:51 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 05:30:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] New fundraising page version In-Reply-To: <742dfd06040917204828bbb48d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040919123051.79185.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote: > 5, 10, 20, 35, 50, 100. Done. See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising/USD http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising/USD/monthly http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising/USD/yearly I've also created versions for CAD, JPY, EUR, and GBP. The templates I'm using are now fully translatable (using variables). Example: {{creditcards|1=PayPal accepts the above payment options}} {{DonationForm/Onetime/JPY|OnetimeDonation=One time donation|OneTimeGiftOf=One time gift of:|MoneyName=yen|ShortComment=Short public comment (200 characters)|MentionName=Do you want your name mentioned in a donor list?|Yes=Yes|No=No|IfNo=If you say no or don't answer, the amount and comment (if any) will be published as "Anonymous".|Optional=Optional field|Submit=Submit form to PayPal|Clear=Clear form}} Calls upon: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Template:DonationForm/Onetime/JPY To yield: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising/JPY/onetime (everything between = and | in the example can be changed and thus create a language-specific version) Major changes also made by Erik, Angela and I at: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising Non-English versions now need to be created. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From epzachte at chello.nl Sun Sep 19 14:07:24 2004 From: epzachte at chello.nl (epzachte at chello.nl) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 16:07:24 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] New fundraising page version Message-ID: <20040919140724.GMKY20913.amsfep12-int.chello.nl@localhost> Mav, I miss the edit box where people can specify any amount for a periodic contribution, as was agreed in the wikimeet last Friday. Also I wonder what the ''Tier x" prefix before each amount in the drop down box means. To me it suggests different Tiers bring different payback to the donator, or establish any other hierarchy which is it probably not what you meant. Erik Zachte From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 19 14:55:00 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 16:55:00 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Proposal for multilingual coordination on foundation website References: <414CB8FB.7030909@laposte.net> <414CF80F.4000706@yahoo.com> <414D39BF.9060305@laposte.net> Message-ID: <414D9DC4.1050603@yahoo.com> Nicolas Weeger a ?crit: > > >> *the title being in original language is problematic. If the original >> language is in japanese, that means all I will see from this page >> title is ?????/fr. >> I fear it is not very informative to me to help me guess what is on >> the page. > > > Well, if you don't understand japanese, you'll need to wait for en: or > fr: or translation anyway :) So not > knowing what the title means isn't that harmful, is it? Well, depends whether you want to avoid missing something :-) > And actually, we could also do something like: create [[My page/fr:]] as > a redirect to [[Ma page]]. We'll then know that ''My page'' does exist > in french, make it easy to find it through the redirect, but still have > a meaningful title. > And/or, for ''static'' pages, once translated, we can move'em, and if > required use bots to fix links (or fix manually) True. Redirects. We can do that :-) >> *at least on the wmf site, I can not really say which article is the >> original one. Languages are alternatively worked on. > > > > But at some point you need to decide ONE version is the base one, imo. > Else, when we'll have 25+ languages, it'll be a real ugly mess to follow > changes. For instance en: makes a draft, translated in fr: ja: de:, then > ja: gets an idea, changes something in ja:, other languages need to > synch, then de: had another idea and changed something else and.... you > get the point :) > > Ryo I do get it. But what do you suggest ? That we declare one language to be the default one in all cases (in this case, only english able people will have the possibility to change a page, since all the others will be translation), or that we set up committees to decide for each case which one will be the official ? I fear this is unworkable. My own position is that we will never have perfect translations, there will be drifts and as long as the spirit is there, that is enough to me. From kissall at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 14:54:37 2004 From: kissall at gmail.com (Kiss All) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 08:54:37 -0600 Subject: [Foundation-l] One suggestion for donation Message-ID: <384f6ad404091907544284dc4e@mail.gmail.com> I just looked at the donation page. It is good. However, I think you may provide more methods to get money for wikimedia. For example, selling T-shirt printed with wikipedia log, similar sticker for volunteers to put on car bumpers. Sometimes, people are more willing to get something while contributing. And those things I mentioned are useful to spread the effect of wikipedia. I saw a lot of bumper stickers everyday. And some are very interesting and very impressive while some hurt my feeling a lot such as "Free Tibet". I don't like the idea of fission my country with the excuse of wrong behaviors of government. I would definitely buy one with WikiMedia slogan and put it on my rear bumper to proudly declare: I am a wikipedian! Joint us! And I would wear the T-shirt often too :-). But make sure you provide size M suitable for asians. Most T-shirts in USA are too large for us. -- Be good.... From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 19 14:59:19 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 16:59:19 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: New fundraising page version References: <742dfd06040917204828bbb48d@mail.gmail.com> <20040919123051.79185.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <414D9EC7.1000209@yahoo.com> Daniel Mayer a ?crit: > --- Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote: > >>5, 10, 20, 35, 50, 100. > > > Done. > > See > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising/USD > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising/USD/monthly > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising/USD/yearly > > I've also created versions for CAD, JPY, EUR, and GBP. > > The templates I'm using are now fully translatable (using variables). > > Example: > {{creditcards|1=PayPal accepts the above payment options}} > > {{DonationForm/Onetime/JPY|OnetimeDonation=One time donation|OneTimeGiftOf=One > time gift of:|MoneyName=yen|ShortComment=Short public comment (200 > characters)|MentionName=Do you want your name mentioned in a donor > list?|Yes=Yes|No=No|IfNo=If you say no or don't answer, the amount and comment > (if any) will be published as "Anonymous".|Optional=Optional > field|Submit=Submit form to PayPal|Clear=Clear form}} > > Calls upon: > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Template:DonationForm/Onetime/JPY > > To yield: > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising/JPY/onetime > > (everything between = and | in the example can be changed and thus create a > language-specific version) > > Major changes also made by Erik, Angela and I at: > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising > > Non-English versions now need to be created. > > -- mav I entirely changed the french version which was not working at all any more. Hopefully works better now. I have a problem though. I think no language version will be identical one to another. It is a pain to just do translations and not be creative as well. I change the french page in a way that seemed nice to me. I come back the next day, and the english page is entirely changed and I should entirely do the french version again ? How are we gonna update all languages each time the english version is changed ? This will be a very difficult task. I am at a loss of how we can handle this properly, in a way not to discourage translators. From nicolas.weeger at laposte.net Sun Sep 19 14:58:18 2004 From: nicolas.weeger at laposte.net (Nicolas Weeger) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 16:58:18 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Proposal for multilingual coordination on foundation website In-Reply-To: <414D9DC4.1050603@yahoo.com> References: <414CB8FB.7030909@laposte.net> <414CF80F.4000706@yahoo.com> <414D39BF.9060305@laposte.net> <414D9DC4.1050603@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <414D9E8A.7060401@laposte.net> > I do get it. > But what do you suggest ? That we declare one language to be the default Sorry, wasn't clear :) Two cases: simple page, complex page Simple page, one person does the first version in whatever language s/he wants, that's the "original" language. Of course people can suggest changes & such. This page is though considered "master" one, ie people should translate it (if they know the language, of course!) and not another. Hint: the talk page of "my page" can be used to discuss changes. Complex page, with many people writing: split "master" page in some subpages, each one in its language. Maybe even use templates. When all bits are ok, make a page including those templates. Example: [[Complex page]] => [[Template:CP1]], [[Template:CP2]], [[Template:CP3]] Translate CP1, CP2 & 3. To make [[Complex page/fr:]] just do {{CP1/fr:}} {{CP2/fr:}} {{CP3/fr:}} => there you go. And to make other versions, just subst fr: to language code - you can then do ONE time the page layout, and include tidbits around. *wonders if that's clear O.o* Ryo From kissall at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 15:22:19 2004 From: kissall at gmail.com (Kiss All) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 09:22:19 -0600 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] One suggestion for donation In-Reply-To: References: <384f6ad404091907544284dc4e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <384f6ad404091908221505484f@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 08:05:15 -0700 (PDT), andrew fabbro wrote: of government. > > The rest of the world's feelings are hurt by Chinese imperialism and the Your word of "the rest of the world" here is a little bit strange for me. You only have right to express your own opinion. But never, please never assume you are the rest of the world. How to define the "rest of the world" and how do you know its feeling is the same as yours? > destruction of Tibetan culture. Until China can behave like a modern, > grown-up nation, no one gives a shit about your "feelings". Again, your word of "no one" here is strange for me. As far as I know, you gave a shit-about my feelings, but it does not mean "no one". You are assuming you are the reprentative for anybody except me? I am confident many people in this world care my feelings. I can only draw a conculsion from your words that you are little bit arrogant. But that is not fully your fault. For me, I am trying to care anybody's feeling when doing things. Forgive my word if what I saying is a kind of offend in your culture. Thanks for your attention for this suggestion. though it is a little bit off-topic > > andrew fabbro [andrew at fabbro.org] > ------------------------------[ quote-o-matic] ----------------------------- > "I've been thinking about all my cool electronic gadgets and how they've > never brought me real happiness. I guess it's because I don't have > enough of them." -- Matt Diamond > -- Be good.... From erik_moeller at gmx.de Sun Sep 19 15:27:00 2004 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: 19 Sep 2004 17:27:00 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] What should I buy? In-Reply-To: <20040918232011.GA18598@wikia.com> Message-ID: <9HB+m1NhpVB@erik_moeller> Jimmy- > 3. I have here in the office 12 4U servers (11 mobos, 12 cases) of > extremely questionable quality. Details are posted on meta: > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Hardware_donation_September_2004 Can these machines be refurbished to turn them into Wikireader terminals? Do we have any plans to do so? It seems to me that in the mid to long term, we will want to set up a hardware donation and refurbishing programme for that purpose, but the logistics of that could be quite intimidating. Rather than set up a central, dedicated storage and testing facility, we could try a decentralized approach and let trusted volunteers store and refurbish as many machines as they can. We only would provide money for shipping the machines to their eventual destination. (We'd have a catalog of destinations and each volunteer would be assigned a destination close to them to save costs.) We'd need an easy to install Linux Terminal Software (based on Knoppix?) at least. And we would need a setup in place where we can easily ship updates to clients, preferably without affecting other data on the client machines. So - what are our plans in this regard? Is there a page on Meta for this already? (Copied to foundation-l.) Regards, Erik From erik_moeller at gmx.de Sun Sep 19 15:17:00 2004 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: 19 Sep 2004 17:17:00 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: New fundraising page version In-Reply-To: <414D9EC7.1000209@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9HB+lpahpVB@erik_moeller> Anthere- > How are we gonna update all languages each time the english version is > changed ? This will be a very difficult task. I am at a loss of how we > can handle this properly, in a way not to discourage translators. I see two strategies: 1) Agree on one language to finish it in first, then freeze (protect) it and do all the translations. Make this freeze deadline clear from the start. 2) Make a checklist of facts. Don't worry about the differences in design as long as the facts are presented accurately. In this case, I prefer strategy 2). Regards, Erik From erik_moeller at gmx.de Sun Sep 19 15:55:00 2004 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: 19 Sep 2004 17:55:00 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Official Wikimedia roadmap? Message-ID: <9HB+oxkSpVB@erik_moeller> Without wanting to overburden the Board of Trustees which I am sure is already working at their personal limits, I'd like to suggest that we create an official Wikimedia roadmap for the next 3 years. When working on the fundraising pages, I could not find a good, officially sanctioned "future activities" page on meta or elsewhere (if I missed something, please let me know). I think that this, together with a well- written mission statement, would be quite important to educate people about what Wikimedia is about. This could address many common criticisms (Wikipedia is not reliable etc.) and hopefully put to rest the misconception that Wikimedia and Wikipedia are essentially the same project. What I am thinking of is a document roughly with three columns: Quarter Projects Technology Financial --------------------------------------------------------------------- Q4/2004 - Launch Wikinews [*] - MW: Database schema - Quarterly - German Wikipedia CD redesign fundraising with each of these items linking to detailed project pages. This could then be combined with some prose that outlines our vision for future projects and needs. I want us to become better aware of the interdependencies between and financial needs of our projects, otherwise we might run into some serious trouble when e.g. we start some well-intended offline edition without a solid peer review process in place. There's a problem with this, however, in that the board would have to decide *now* which projects it thinks will be executed in the future, even if there has not yet been a vote or a full feasibility study on these projects. In order to address this problem, I added a "[*]" above, which would then be resolved to [*] Tentative. There is consensus among board members that this [[m:Category:Proposed projects|proposed project]] is a good idea worth pursuing, but no extensive community review has happened yet. Hence, I would suggest that the roadmap essentially would reflect the board's collective bias on the various proposed projects. What are your thoughts on that? We could try to write this together on Meta, but the Board would at least have to provide a rough "consensus paper" to base it on (e.g. which projects the board definitely wants to do, which technology needs it definitely sees etc.). After some community work, it would then be handed back to the board for editing and the final stamp of approval. Regards, Erik From anthere9 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 19 16:19:29 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:19:29 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Proposal for multilingual coordination on foundation website References: <414CB8FB.7030909@laposte.net> <414CF80F.4000706@yahoo.com> <414D39BF.9060305@laposte.net> <414D9DC4.1050603@yahoo.com> <414D9E8A.7060401@laposte.net> Message-ID: <414DB191.6020400@yahoo.com> come over to wmf, and give it a try :-) Nicolas Weeger a ?crit: >> I do get it. >> But what do you suggest ? That we declare one language to be the default > > > > Sorry, wasn't clear :) > Two cases: simple page, complex page > > Simple page, one person does the first version in whatever language s/he > wants, that's the "original" language. Of course people can suggest > changes & such. This page is though considered "master" one, ie people > should translate it (if they know the language, of course!) and not > another. Hint: the talk page of "my page" can be used to discuss changes. > > Complex page, with many people writing: split "master" page in some > subpages, each one in its language. Maybe even use templates. When all > bits are ok, make a page including those templates. > Example: [[Complex page]] => [[Template:CP1]], [[Template:CP2]], > [[Template:CP3]] > Translate CP1, CP2 & 3. To make [[Complex page/fr:]] just do {{CP1/fr:}} > {{CP2/fr:}} {{CP3/fr:}} => there you go. > And to make other versions, just subst fr: to language code - you can > then do ONE time the page layout, and include tidbits around. > > *wonders if that's clear O.o* > > Ryo From rowan.collins at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 17:33:15 2004 From: rowan.collins at gmail.com (Rowan Collins) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:33:15 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Official Wikimedia roadmap? In-Reply-To: <9HB+oxkSpVB@erik_moeller> References: <9HB+oxkSpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <9f02ca4c04091910331c622fd6@mail.gmail.com> On 19 Sep 2004 17:55:00 +0200, Erik Moeller wrote: > Without wanting to overburden the Board of Trustees which I am sure is > already working at their personal limits, I'd like to suggest that we > create an official Wikimedia roadmap for the next 3 years. This seems like quite a sensible idea, if people are willing to give it due consideration. It's always good to have a definite focus and deadlines, even if they are self-imposed and easily altered. For instance, deciding *when* (or over what timescale) something like "Wikipedia 1.0" or single-sign-on should be achieved would help define when people should move from broad discussion to detailed plans and actual action. It's all too easy in a democratic type structure to do a lot of talking, and not get round to acting. [Either that, or I'm psychologically transferring my own faults onto the entire Wikimedia community... ;)] -- Rowan Collins BSc [IMSoP] From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 20:13:19 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 16:13:19 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Delay in press release In-Reply-To: <41466EE4.4010900@earthlink.net> References: <20040913114346.D4F2B1AC0447@mail.wikimedia.org> <41466EE4.4010900@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <742dfd06040919131368d59964@mail.gmail.com> Hi Michael, Thanks again for coordinating this. :) So people should start mailing the press tonight at 2400 UTC? There is a global press-release-log at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Press_release_logbook ; please note which groups you plan to contact there before you contact them, and then verify you've done so (with a timestamp) once you've send the letter. --Sj On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:09:08 -0700, Michael Snow wrote: > In connection with the upcoming press release celebrating one million > Wikipedia articles, we are working to translate not only the press > release itself, but also make the Wikimedia Foundation website available > in languages other than English. This is needed for us to make the best > use of the publicity and also to help our fundraising efforts. However, > this project will carry us through the weekend. > > Therefore, at the request of the Board of Trustees, I am delaying the > distribution of the press release until Monday, September 20. That will > be the day for the official announcement, although we may actually reach > the million-article milestone earlier. This will allow us sufficient > time to get things ready in as many languages as possible. Also, it may > be helpful to have the press release come at the beginning of the weekly > news cycle, as this may allow for better exposure over the course of the > week. > > Please pass this on to your respective projects and anyone who is > planning to help with this effort. In the meantime, everyone who will > help distribute the press release could make good use of the time to > identify the right contact people at the media organizations you plan to > send the press release to. > > --Michael Snow > > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > -- +sj+ _ _ :-------.-.--------.--.--------.-.--------.--.--------[...] From Tom at folsoms.net Mon Sep 20 01:45:53 2004 From: Tom at folsoms.net (Tom at folsoms.net) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 21:45:53 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Official Wikimedia roadmap? In-Reply-To: <9HB+oxkSpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <414DFE11.16726.787353@localhost> This is my first post to the mailing list, but I've been reading it for awhile, and this post is something I really wanted to reply to and put my support behind. One of the ways I always attract people to Wikipedia is to say something like "well, this is the main project, the first one. It's pretty amazing... here are all the cool features (list). But look at this! There are also wikiquote, Wikibooks, etc etc, and proposals for lots more". Normally that's enough to get people interested, but that's when my trouble starts- questions. The latest one I got was repeated several times- I like Wikipedia, but I want to work on 1.0.... do we know what plans are for that, what timing? Is there a more updated page? an organizer for the project? Things like that are common questions that I get. Also some technical issues, although really the only main thing is the "I have to have multiple accounts for all these projects?". Any way, a single page that could act as a clearing-house for all of the proposed projects and features would be a great way to not only get people involved in new things, but make sure everyone knows what is really going on. I really like this idea- especially because I want to be able to add WikiReader and 1.0 information to it (what I'm waiting to get involved with more). Lyellin From maveric149 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 02:33:02 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:33:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Official Wikimedia roadmap? In-Reply-To: <9HB+oxkSpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <20040920023302.29403.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Erik Moeller wrote: > Without wanting to overburden the Board of Trustees which I am sure is > already working at their personal limits, I'd like to suggest that we > create an official Wikimedia roadmap for the next 3 years. > ... All great ideas. Creating a 3 and/or 5 year masterplan is simply good operating procedure. This was part of my failed candidate bid and something I think is *very* important. But we first need to get a handle on short and mid-term planning (specifically an official quarterly and yearly budget) before we dive too much into the long term, IMO. Both can and should be done at the same time, but more effort is needed (esp. initially) to get the short term systems in place (in progress). I really could use a tech person to help me figure out projected hardware-related costs. -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From beesley at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 02:40:33 2004 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 03:40:33 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Official Wikimedia roadmap? In-Reply-To: <9HB+oxkSpVB@erik_moeller> References: <9HB+oxkSpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <8b722b800409191940302c86b9@mail.gmail.com> I completely agree with the need to document the longer term plans of the Foundation. Danny started a page on this a while ago at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Three-year_plan It would helpful if people used that page to give their own suggestions of what they would like Wikimedia's goals to be over the next three years to help the Board come up with a more concrete plan. Angela. From maveric149 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 06:10:22 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 23:10:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] New fundraising page version In-Reply-To: <20040919140724.GMKY20913.amsfep12-int.chello.nl@localhost> Message-ID: <20040920061022.71321.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> --- epzachte at chello.nl wrote: > Mav, I miss the edit box where people can specify any amount for a periodic > contribution, > as was agreed in the wikimeet last Friday. Our choices with PayPal are limited; we either get a drop down or an input field , not both. > Also I wonder what the ''Tier x" prefix before each amount in the drop down > box means. Nothing other than being able to easily keep track of amounts over 4 languages and two periods. I might remove them. > To me it suggests different Tiers bring different payback to the donator, > or establish any other hierarchy which is it probably not what you meant. In the future they could mean that, but not yet. To everybody: And I thought that the fund drive was starting at 20:00 UTC on Monday. Why is there a fund drive note at the top of the English Wikipedia? PLEASE take that down until the fund drive starts - I'm still working on the fund drive pages and WILL NOT have time to update the goal bar until I'm done. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From maveric149 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 06:20:28 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 23:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] One suggestion for donation In-Reply-To: <384f6ad404091907544284dc4e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040920062028.26441.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kiss All wrote: > I just looked at the donation page. It is good. However, I think you > may provide more methods to get money for wikimedia. For example, > selling T-shirt printed with wikipedia log, similar sticker for > volunteers to put on car bumpers. We do that with a CafePress account. See http://www.cafepress.com/wikipedia > Sometimes, people are more willing to get something while > contributing. And those things I mentioned are useful to spread the > effect of wikipedia. IIRC we haven't broke $1000 profit yet for our CafePress account. Yet we took in well over $50,000 the first half this year in pure donations. -- mav _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From maveric149 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 08:15:24 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 01:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Fund drive progress (was Re:New fundraising page version) In-Reply-To: <20040920061022.71321.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040920081524.35321.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Daniel Mayer wrote: > To everybody: > And I thought that the fund drive was starting at 20:00 UTC on Monday. Why is > there a fund drive note at the top of the English Wikipedia? PLEASE take that > down until the fund drive starts - I'm still working on the fund drive pages > and WILL NOT have time to update the goal bar until I'm done. Nevermind. I'm done for now with the changes I wanted to make to the English, French, and German versions of the fundraising page and Suisui is doing the same thing for the Japanese version. So I went ahead and updated the fund drive template on the WMF wiki. See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising We are at $1,294.34 USD so far (the green bar needs to be a bit wider before it will show any text). The bar is updated by hand by those people with read access to the PayPal account. I'll be able to update the fund drive bar at least a couple times a day - others who have access are welcome to make updates as well. :) -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From yann at forget-me.net Mon Sep 20 08:59:16 2004 From: yann at forget-me.net (Yann Forget) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 10:59:16 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] favicons In-Reply-To: <20040920030746.GA11776@mongoose> References: <20040920030746.GA11776@mongoose> Message-ID: <200409201059.16988.yann@forget-me.net> Le Monday 20 September 2004 05:07, Joshua Swink a ?crit : > Sometimes I like to have several 'pedias open at once, in tabs, > and it would be nice if they had different favicons. These icons > are in the tabs, so if they did, I could tell which pedia was > in a tab quickly. > > I have made some simple ones for Meta, Wikibooks and Wikiquote, > and was wondering if someone could put them on the wikis. They > are at http://yath.phreadom.net/wikicons/. Nice idea, but we need icons a bit more "international" and less English based. ;o) So for Wikiquote, it might be OK, for meta I don't know, and for Wikibooks, we need something better. And Wikisource and Wiktionary are missing. BTW, this is the wrong list, so redirect to foundation-l at wikimedia.org. > Thanks! > > -- > Joshua Swink > yathster at yahoo.com Best wishes, Yann -- http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux From petr.kadlec at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 09:45:55 2004 From: petr.kadlec at gmail.com (Petr Kadlec) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:45:55 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Fundraising pages Message-ID: Could someone please explain if there is some logical system in all those WMF-donation pages? I know about http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF-don http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Fundraising_pages http://wikimedia.org/fundraising http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Home and it seems to me they differ among themselves somewhat significantly. I have translated the page at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF-don to czech as I thought it would be better if the sitenotice that I have placed to w:cs: would better link to a czech version of the page. But now, I have no idea where should the czech translation be placed (I suppose that m:Translation_requests/WMF-don/Cs: is not its final place), I cannot add a page to wikimediafoundation.org like the german Wikipedia did (as I have no login there), or should I create a fundraising page directly on cs: ? And, regarding the translation: I have left out those PayPal links (and left only one in the text), as PayPal cannot be used from Czechia, so they are of no use to czech users (MoneyBookers work fine). I hope this is OK? And a final technical question: The translation request says "Note that these pages do *not* use wiki-markup, but only HTML." But the Translation requests/WMF-don/En: is in wiki-markup! I have used wiki-markup as I used the en: version as the source; I could change it to HTML, but...should I? Regards, Petr Kadlec (a sysop as cs:User:Mormegil) From anthere9 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 11:39:41 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:39:41 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Official Wikimedia roadmap? References: <9HB+oxkSpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <414EC17D.4020709@yahoo.com> I certainly agree on the principle. Practically, some thoughts were already given by Danny and Sj on this if I remember well, and there was already some work done in that perspective, when I suggested we create the hardware requirement page so as to help Mav in his budgeting work. There is one point on which I do not agree with you though. It has to do with the projects launching typically. If we do what you suggest (ie, indicating the board planned road, to be reviewed/approved by the community), it implies we are having a top down approach entirely. Besides, it makes it appear we have already taken decisions in our mind of what to do and what not to do, even though we may just be thinking of it. For example, you seem to suggest that 1) the board should indicates its desire for a wikinews project (as a good idea to pursue... which implies there already is a good and definitive description of the project to be based our decision upon), then that 2) the project should be reviewed and approved by the community. It seems to me this approach is PRECISELY the one which was recently rejected and that there was a general desire for the community to be the motor of road map. Hence, though I definitly have some opinions myself, I will prefer to have this road map collectively written, rather than the board giving a strong steering direction. In this, we differ very much :-) Anthere Erik Moeller a ?crit: > Without wanting to overburden the Board of Trustees which I am sure is > already working at their personal limits, I'd like to suggest that we > create an official Wikimedia roadmap for the next 3 years. > > When working on the fundraising pages, I could not find a good, officially > sanctioned "future activities" page on meta or elsewhere (if I missed > something, please let me know). I think that this, together with a well- > written mission statement, would be quite important to educate people > about what Wikimedia is about. This could address many common criticisms > (Wikipedia is not reliable etc.) and hopefully put to rest the > misconception that Wikimedia and Wikipedia are essentially the same > project. > > What I am thinking of is a document roughly with three columns: > > Quarter Projects Technology Financial > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Q4/2004 - Launch Wikinews [*] - MW: Database schema - Quarterly > - German Wikipedia CD redesign fundraising > > with each of these items linking to detailed project pages. This could > then be combined with some prose that outlines our vision for future > projects and needs. > > I want us to become better aware of the interdependencies between and > financial needs of our projects, otherwise we might run into some serious > trouble when e.g. we start some well-intended offline edition without a > solid peer review process in place. > > There's a problem with this, however, in that the board would have to > decide *now* which projects it thinks will be executed in the future, even > if there has not yet been a vote or a full feasibility study on these > projects. In order to address this problem, I added a "[*]" above, which > would then be resolved to > > [*] Tentative. There is consensus among board members that this > [[m:Category:Proposed projects|proposed project]] is a good idea > worth pursuing, but no extensive community review has happened yet. > > Hence, I would suggest that the roadmap essentially would reflect the > board's collective bias on the various proposed projects. > > What are your thoughts on that? We could try to write this together on > Meta, but the Board would at least have to provide a rough "consensus > paper" to base it on (e.g. which projects the board definitely wants to > do, which technology needs it definitely sees etc.). After some community > work, it would then be handed back to the board for editing and the final > stamp of approval. > > Regards, > > Erik From anthere9 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 11:40:35 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:40:35 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: New fundraising page version References: <20040919140724.GMKY20913.amsfep12-int.chello.nl@localhost> <20040920061022.71321.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <414EC1B3.7080108@yahoo.com> > To everybody: > And I thought that the fund drive was starting at 20:00 UTC on Monday. Why is > there a fund drive note at the top of the English Wikipedia? PLEASE take that > down until the fund drive starts - I'm still working on the fund drive pages > and WILL NOT have time to update the goal bar until I'm done. > > -- mav The fund drive was starting at 20:00 UTC on Sundays :-( (so I myself understood) ant From yann at forget-me.net Mon Sep 20 11:45:54 2004 From: yann at forget-me.net (Yann Forget) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:45:54 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Official Wikimedia roadmap? In-Reply-To: <9HB+oxkSpVB@erik_moeller> References: <9HB+oxkSpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <200409201345.54264.yann@forget-me.net> Le Sunday 19 September 2004 17:55, Erik Moeller a ?crit : > Without wanting to overburden the Board of Trustees which I am sure is > already working at their personal limits, I'd like to suggest that we > create an official Wikimedia roadmap for the next 3 years. Yes, excellent. I added a paragraph about WSIS: the World Summit on Information Society. I think that really something in which the WMF should take part. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Three-year_plan http://www.itu.int/wsis/ > Regards, > > Erik Regards, Yann -- http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux From anthere9 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 11:41:46 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:41:46 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Fund drive progress (was Re:New fundraising page version) References: <20040920061022.71321.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <20040920081524.35321.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <414EC1FA.9030203@yahoo.com> The french donation page was tested by Aurevilly yesterday evening (2 hours before the start). It worked perfectly :-) Thanks a lot Mav. ant Daniel Mayer a ?crit: > --- Daniel Mayer wrote: > >>To everybody: >>And I thought that the fund drive was starting at 20:00 UTC on Monday. Why is >>there a fund drive note at the top of the English Wikipedia? PLEASE take that >>down until the fund drive starts - I'm still working on the fund drive pages >>and WILL NOT have time to update the goal bar until I'm done. > > > Nevermind. I'm done for now with the changes I wanted to make to the English, > French, and German versions of the fundraising page and Suisui is doing the > same thing for the Japanese version. > > So I went ahead and updated the fund drive template on the WMF wiki. > > See http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising > > We are at $1,294.34 USD so far (the green bar needs to be a bit wider before it > will show any text). > > The bar is updated by hand by those people with read access to the PayPal > account. I'll be able to update the fund drive bar at least a couple times a > day - others who have access are welcome to make updates as well. :) > > -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav) > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From erik_moeller at gmx.de Mon Sep 20 13:45:00 2004 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: 20 Sep 2004 15:45:00 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Official Wikimedia roadmap? In-Reply-To: <414EC17D.4020709@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9HC0U3expVB@erik_moeller> Anthere- > For example, you seem to suggest that 1) the board should indicates its > desire for a wikinews project (as a good idea to pursue... which implies > there already is a good and definitive description of the project to be > based our decision upon), then that 2) the project should be reviewed > and approved by the community. Approved or denied. The community doesn't have to rubber stamp the board's suggestions. However, we want a document that reflects the official - tentative - Wikimedia position. That position may change at any time, but in practice it probably won't change that much. There are two approaches I see to create such a document: 1) The board tries to find the things everyone (in the board, and largely outside) agrees on. Being trusted by the community, they are a good set of representatives to make this decision. They compile it into a list, and the community builds the roadmap on that list, marking of course anything that has even the slightest potential for controversy as tentative. 2) The community makes the decisions right from the start. This is very difficult, because by the time a project has this level of community interest, it is almost ready to launch - not very useful for a roadmap if you can't look into the future. I don't see this working unless we create a systematic process by which the community evaluates and rates / votes on proposed projects early on. Do you have any other ideas? If not, which one of these approaches do you prefer? Regards, Erik From beesley at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 14:54:38 2004 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 15:54:38 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Fundraising pages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8b722b8004092007546d6ae55d@mail.gmail.com> Petr Kadlecwrote: > Could someone please explain if there is some logical system in all > those WMF-donation pages? ...The translation request says "Note > that these pages do *not* use wiki-markup, but only HTML. Sorry but I had not realized the [[m:Translation requests/WMF-don]] page existed or I would have updated it. The instructions there are now out of date as the pages have moved to the Foundation website. All donations pages are now in wikitext and they rely heavily on the template system that mav described at http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2004-September/001021.html The version that should be translated is at http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising on the Foundation wiki. Please do not rely on any old copies that may still be on Meta. I apologize for any confusion that has resulted over this. There are already four completed language versions of the fundraising page and I want to say thank you to Akl, Alex756, Anthere, Aphaia, Elian, Eloquence, Greudin, Kzhr, Paddy, Ryo, Sj, Suisui, Timwi, Tipiac, Tomos, Villy, and Yann for their work on these. Thanks also to Brion Vibber for making it technically possible to have these pages on the new Foundation wiki, and to Tim Starling and Looxix for their development work on that wiki. Finally, a very big thanks to Daniel Mayer for his extensive work on the fundraising pages and all the associated templates, and for agreeing to keep the fundraising bar up to date over the next two weeks. The drive updates can be seen on any of the fundraising pages, and on the http://wikimediafoundation.org home page. Angela. From petr.kadlec at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 15:11:28 2004 From: petr.kadlec at gmail.com (PR Wikipedie) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:11:28 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Fundraising pages In-Reply-To: <8b722b8004092007546d6ae55d@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b8004092007546d6ae55d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > The version that should be translated is at > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising on the Foundation > wiki. Please do not rely on any old copies that may still be on Meta. > I apologize for any confusion that has resulted over this. There is a little problem that I do not have an account on wikimediafoundation.org (and I am not allowed to make one, obviously), so that I cannot even copy the source. But AFAICS the page is very similar (on the first sight identical, except the bar) to http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF-don/En:, which is the version I have used as the base for my translation (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF-don/Cs:). So the question is: what should I do with the translation (place to cs:, ask for an account on wikimediafoundation.org, submit to a commitee ;-) ...whatever) ? Petr Kadlec / Mormegil From maveric149 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 16:27:34 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:27:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Fundraising pages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040920162734.75219.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> --- Petr Kadlec wrote: > Could someone please explain if there is some logical system in all > those WMF-donation pages? I know about > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF-don > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Fundraising_pages > http://wikimedia.org/fundraising > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Home > and it seems to me they differ among themselves somewhat > significantly. I have translated the page at > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF-don to czech > as I thought it would be better if the sitenotice that I have placed > to w:cs: would better link to a czech version of the page. But now, I > have no idea where should the czech translation be placed (I suppose > that m:Translation_requests/WMF-don/Cs: is not its final place), I > cannot add a page to wikimediafoundation.org like the german Wikipedia > did (as I have no login there), or should I create a fundraising page > directly on cs: ? Sorry, everything is a mess right now and there is no documentation yet because we are making this up as we go along due to the extreme rush to get the WMF wiki set-up. Things should settle down a bit in a few days at which point I will try to figure this out for myself and document that. :) But we have moved from a one page, one language HTML-only setup to a 21 page per language setup that is very heavily dependent on wiki templates that take multiple variables (but if PayPal is irrelevant for cs, then that could be cut way down). I'm also not sure what the procedure for approving a translation is now or if there are only a certain set of languages we want translated - for that you will have to hear from the board. -- Daniel Mayer, WMF CFO __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From maveric149 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 16:50:51 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:50:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Fundraising pages In-Reply-To: <8b722b8004092007546d6ae55d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040920165051.85528.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> --- Angela wrote: > The version that should be translated is at > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising on the Foundation > wiki. Please do not rely on any old copies that may still be on Meta. The big problem is that non-logged in users see an [Edit] tab for non-protected pages but when they click it, it takes them to a message saying that to edit they need to log-in. No page source is provided. This needs to be fixed ASAP. > I apologize for any confusion that has resulted over this. So do I. But the whole new system was developed over the weekend so I haven't had time to do much documentation. > There are already four completed language versions of the fundraising > page and I want to say thank you to Akl, Alex756, Anthere, Aphaia, > Elian, Eloquence, Greudin, Kzhr, Paddy, Ryo, Sj, Suisui, Timwi, > Tipiac, Tomos, Villy, and Yann for their work on these. Thanks also to > Brion Vibber for making it technically possible to have these pages on > the new Foundation wiki, and to Tim Starling and Looxix for their > development work on that wiki. Finally, a very big thanks to Daniel > Mayer for his extensive work on the fundraising pages and all the > associated templates, and for agreeing to keep the fundraising bar up > to date over the next two weeks. Thank you. :) And a HUGE thank you to all the developers that helped create the template functionality in the first place. Variables are really neat! For example, I just have to update http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Template:Fund_drive and that updates all copies in 4 different languages, each with their own translation. Other example: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Template:DonationForm/Monthly/USD + http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Template:DonationForm/Monthly-en = http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising/USD/monthly via {{DonationForm/Monthly-en|CurrencyCode=USD}} Just change the en to fr, jp, or de to get those versions. -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From maveric149 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 16:54:41 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: New fundraising page version In-Reply-To: <414EC1B3.7080108@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040920165441.16692.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> --- Anthere wrote: > The fund drive was starting at 20:00 UTC on Sundays :-( (so I myself > understood) I missed that part. :) Everything is OK now - we just don't have much documentation of what I did (but others seem to be figuring it out on their own). -- mav _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 18:07:03 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:07:03 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Fundraising pages In-Reply-To: References: <8b722b8004092007546d6ae55d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <742dfd06040920110732d4587e@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:11:28 +0200, PR Wikipedie wrote: > > There is a little problem that I do not have an account on > wikimediafoundation.org (and I am not allowed to make one, obviously), > so that I cannot even copy the source. But AFAICS the page is very > similar (on the first sight identical, except the bar) to > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF-don/En:, which > is the version I have used as the base for my translation > (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF-don/Cs:). Hi Mormegil, Thanks for helping translate the new donation page! Because visitors cannot see the source on WMF.org, a current copy of the source for the donation page is kept at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF-don/En: (Although you should check your final result against the current revision on WMF.org, in case there have been last-minute changes) You put the translation in the right place; it may be a little while before it is migrated to the foundation site. Cheers, +sj+ _ _ :-------.-.--------.--.--------.-.--------.--.--------[...] From beesley at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 18:41:55 2004 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela_) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:41:55 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] The Wikimedia Foundation is not the WMF In-Reply-To: <742dfd06040920110732d4587e@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b8004092007546d6ae55d@mail.gmail.com> <742dfd06040920110732d4587e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8b722b8004092011415856e16f@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:07:03 -0400, Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote: > Although you should check your final result against the current revision > on WMF.org, in case there have been last-minute changes) I would like to request that everyone stops using the abbreviation WMF to refer to the Wikimedia Foundation. We do not own the domain name WMF.org and it is not likely we ever will. If people make the effort not to use it, it will reduce confusion and misdirected traffic. Although I quote Sj above, this is in no way directed only at him. It's bad enough that we don't own wikimedia.com that I think efforts should be made to prevent even more links to sites that are not really us. Thanks. Angela From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 18:47:31 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:47:31 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] One suggestion for donation In-Reply-To: <20040920062028.26441.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> References: <384f6ad404091907544284dc4e@mail.gmail.com> <20040920062028.26441.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <742dfd060409201147515b51be@mail.gmail.com> > We do that with a CafePress account. See > http://www.cafepress.com/wikipedia I still like this idea. I think we should consider a proper production run of one or two nice items, from a much cheaper manufacturer than cafe-press. They won't go to waste; among other things, we can send some of them to donors who give over a certain amount. Perhaps a new design contest is in order? As for myself, I love the tile coasters offered via cafepress, but wish the image were updated to reflect the new logo and skin. Erik, are you still maintaining this account? A water bottle and winter-suitable jacket would also be good additions to our list. > IIRC we haven't broke $1000 profit yet for our CafePress account. Yet we took > in well over $50,000 the first half this year in pure donations. On the other hand, distributing physical items with our logo is a gift that keeps on giving... as friends (even people who rarely use the web) see you wearing your shirt around, or guests admire your bizarre drink coasters at a party. When I wrote in favor of having "100,000 physical instances of WM products distributed", this is the kind of product I was thinking of. (The upcoming CD & DVD distributions are a fantastic start -- but unless you have an obnoxious brightly-colored CD-case design like AOL does, those kinds of products don't "keep giving" in quite the same way.) -- +sj+ From petr.kadlec at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 19:00:39 2004 From: petr.kadlec at gmail.com (Petr Kadlec) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 21:00:39 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Fundraising pages In-Reply-To: <742dfd06040920110732d4587e@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b8004092007546d6ae55d@mail.gmail.com> <742dfd06040920110732d4587e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: OK, I have updated the translation accordingly (unfortunately, wmf.org is not ours, is it ;-) ). Thanks for the help. Petr Kadlec / Mormegil From maveric149 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 19:14:34 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] One suggestion for donation In-Reply-To: <742dfd060409201147515b51be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040920191434.47250.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote: > I still like this idea. I think we should consider a proper > production run of one or two nice items, from a much cheaper > manufacturer than cafe-press. They won't go to waste; among other > things, we can send some of them to donors who give over a certain > amount. That would be a very good idea so that we can sell/give out items at meetups and other special events. > On the other hand, distributing physical items with our logo is a gift > that keeps on giving... as friends (even people who rarely use the > web) see you wearing your shirt around, or guests admire your bizarre > drink coasters at a party. Yes - promotion is good. Giving a person a t-shirt and a bumper sticker for donating 50 bucks (for example) may increase donations. But we have to work out the logistics of that first. > When I wrote in favor of having "100,000 physical instances of WM > products distributed", this is the kind of product I was thinking of. Neat goal. :) -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From saintonge at telus.net Mon Sep 20 19:20:10 2004 From: saintonge at telus.net (Ray Saintonge) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:20:10 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: [Wikipedia-l] favicons In-Reply-To: <200409201059.16988.yann@forget-me.net> References: <20040920030746.GA11776@mongoose> <200409201059.16988.yann@forget-me.net> Message-ID: <414F2D6A.3020706@telus.net> Yann Forget wrote: >Le Monday 20 September 2004 05:07, Joshua Swink a ?crit : > > >>Sometimes I like to have several 'pedias open at once, in tabs, >>and it would be nice if they had different favicons. These icons >>are in the tabs, so if they did, I could tell which pedia was >>in a tab quickly. >> >>I have made some simple ones for Meta, Wikibooks and Wikiquote, >>and was wondering if someone could put them on the wikis. They >>are at http://yath.phreadom.net/wikicons/. >> >> > >Nice idea, but we need icons a bit more "international" and less English >based. ;o) > >So for Wikiquote, it might be OK, for meta I don't know, and for Wikibooks, we >need something better. And Wikisource and Wiktionary are missing. > Given that we have several skins available one way to handle the problem is to set each of your commonly used projects to a different skin. Ec From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 20:33:15 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:33:15 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Proposal for multilingual coordination on foundation website In-Reply-To: <414D9E8A.7060401@laposte.net> References: <414CB8FB.7030909@laposte.net> <414CF80F.4000706@yahoo.com> <414D39BF.9060305@laposte.net> <414D9DC4.1050603@yahoo.com> <414D9E8A.7060401@laposte.net> Message-ID: <742dfd0604092013336c28e81e@mail.gmail.com> Wow, you're talking about a lot of things here, Ryo. :-) I'll try to summarize some of them; new thoughts indicated by "+". (At the end : a suggestion for better-audited translations, for sensitive pages) [I.] Separate language-independent content : layout, images, data (...) * Templates are useful for this. + All this can have its own talk: page [II.] Identify key languages which are accessible to most translators as source languages * distinguish "original content" from "source" for translation; original may not be in a key language + distinguish source for translation from "target content in key language"; sources for translation should be simple and free of idiom. A simplified english source for translation may not be the idiomatic english translation of the original. + sources will some day need to be available in multiple key languages [III.] For simple pages, have a lazy top-down translation process * Page P comes from a group writing in one language. * Discussion of content takes place on Talk:P + P is translated into key languages, then into target languages. + Version control is handled by checking the last timestamp on P (or the simplifies source used) and on the target translation. ++ At some point, work on the original can be frozen to let others catch up. [IV.] For complex pages, break them into simple pages * Complex page Q gets content from people writing in a few languages. * Separate Q into single-language subparts; treat each part as in III., using templates. ==== [III.] and [IV.] are good ways to start. We will eventually need better version-control for pages whose timeliness and synchronization is most important; see [V.] below. ==== <-- slightly gory details follow --> [V.] Unlazy Translation, originals in many languages, single source for translation (Especially for pages where content is being added to the same sections in many languages, in which case the above method won't work) ==LINKAGE== + Identify pages whose content is linked together. Let's call the set of mutually intertranslated pages on a given topic a cluster of pages. ++ Decide on a single source page for a cluster. It could contain content in multiple languages -- each paragraph listed once in each key language -- or just content in (simplified) english. ==PROPAGATION== + Provide a way to flag a change as 'needing translation'. (like major/minor edits) + Changes to each content page are translated to the source page. Changes to the source page are propagated to each content page. ==VERSION Control== + Track version numbers for each page. (Autoincluded somewhere on each revision) ++ Provide a way to say "Updated from page S, revision XX" when translating S into a page T (or more generally, when synchronising S with T). This could be done in tandem with a new translation interface, which shows S and T versions together while one is updating T. + Create a db-generated overview for each cluster, showing for each page + ~ When it was last synched with the source (version #s of both; changes made to it since then should be propagated to the source; this will usually be the current version) + ~ When the source was last synched with it (version #s of both; changes to the source since then should be propagated to it) The overview will let you can see exactly how far a particular change has propagated. (bg v.49 was synched with source v.112, but only ja: has been updated from the source since then...) Note that "when page P was last synched with me" is a transitive property (if the source is synched with page A, which is then synched with page B, the source is now synched with both A and B); so while many pages will be directly synched with other pages in the cluster rather than the source, this overview can still be kept current. You can modify this process to allow for multiple sources for translation (a kernel of sources, in a sense), rather than just one. -- +sj+ From saintonge at telus.net Mon Sep 20 20:38:22 2004 From: saintonge at telus.net (Ray Saintonge) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:38:22 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] The Wikimedia Foundation is not the WMF In-Reply-To: <8b722b8004092011415856e16f@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b8004092007546d6ae55d@mail.gmail.com> <742dfd06040920110732d4587e@mail.gmail.com> <8b722b8004092011415856e16f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <414F3FBE.3050409@telus.net> Angela_ wrote: >On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:07:03 -0400, Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote: > > >>Although you should check your final result against the current revision >>on WMF.org, in case there have been last-minute changes) >> >> >I would like to request that everyone stops using the abbreviation WMF >to refer to the Wikimedia Foundation. We do not own the domain name >WMF.org and it is not likely we ever will. If people make the effort >not to use it, it will reduce confusion and misdirected traffic. > >Although I quote Sj above, this is in no way directed only at him. >It's bad enough that we don't own wikimedia.com that I think efforts >should be made to prevent even more links to sites that are not really >us. > > Good point, both in the particular and in general. To me WMF normally refers to the World Monetary Fund. It made me wonder what they had to do with Wikimedia fundraising. :-) The problem with initialisms is bigger than unavailable domain names. There are other possible misunderstandings when an initialism is used. One example that led to a furious exchange more than a year ago was over "LOL". The user intended it as "Lots of Luck" to encourage the contributor; the recipient read it as "Laughing out Loud" and felt that his work was being insulted. Ec From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 21:05:25 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:05:25 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] The Wikimedia Foundation is not the WMF In-Reply-To: <8b722b8004092011415856e16f@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b8004092007546d6ae55d@mail.gmail.com> <742dfd06040920110732d4587e@mail.gmail.com> <8b722b8004092011415856e16f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <742dfd06040920140511f073c6@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:41:55 +0100, Angela_ wrote: > On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:07:03 -0400, Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote: > > Although you should check your final result against the current revision > > on WMF.org, in case there have been last-minute changes) > > We do not own the domain name WMF.org and it is not likely we ever will. A good point. Although WMF.net is only being squatted... Saluting your continued crusade against abbreviation, +sj+ From ropers at ropersonline.com Tue Sep 21 00:12:32 2004 From: ropers at ropersonline.com (Jens Ropers) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 02:12:32 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] The Wikimedia Foundation is not the WMF In-Reply-To: <742dfd06040920140511f073c6@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b8004092007546d6ae55d@mail.gmail.com> <742dfd06040920110732d4587e@mail.gmail.com> <8b722b8004092011415856e16f@mail.gmail.com> <742dfd06040920140511f073c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 20 Sep 2004, at 23:05, Sj wrote: > On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:41:55 +0100, Angela_ wrote: >> On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:07:03 -0400, Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote: >>> Although you should check your final result against the current >>> revision >>> on WMF.org, in case there have been last-minute changes) >> >> We do not own the domain name WMF.org and it is not likely we ever >> will. > > A good point. Although WMF.net is only being squatted... > > Saluting your continued crusade against abbreviation, > +sj+ Speaking of acronyms and [[TLA]]s -- may I recommend: The book LTI (aka Lingua Tertii Imperii) http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/0826457770/ -- ropers From yathster at yahoo.com Wed Sep 22 05:03:42 2004 From: yathster at yahoo.com (Joshua Swink) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 22:03:42 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] favicons Message-ID: <20040922050342.GA14941@mongoose> Sometimes I like to have several 'pedias open at once, in tabs, and it would be nice if they had different favicons. These icons are in the tabs, so if they did, I could tell which pedia was in a tab quickly. I have made some simple ones for Meta, Wikibooks and Wikiquote, and was wondering if someone could put them on the wikis. They are at http://yath.phreadom.net/wikicons/. Thanks! P.S. They are now a little more internationalized than the ones I mentioned on wikimedia-l. From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 07:42:05 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 03:42:05 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] favicons In-Reply-To: <20040922050342.GA14941@mongoose> References: <20040922050342.GA14941@mongoose> Message-ID: <742dfd060409220042320796e5@mail.gmail.com> That's really cool. I would love to see different favicons, too... also for the foundationwiki and wiktionary. ---SJ On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 22:03:42 -0700, Joshua Swink wrote: > Sometimes I like to have several 'pedias open at once, in tabs, > and it would be nice if they had different favicons. These icons > are in the tabs, so if they did, I could tell which pedia was > in a tab quickly. > > I have made some simple ones for Meta, Wikibooks and Wikiquote, > and was wondering if someone could put them on the wikis. They > are at http://yath.phreadom.net/wikicons/. -- +sj+ From yann at forget-me.net Wed Sep 22 16:49:36 2004 From: yann at forget-me.net (Yann Forget) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:49:36 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Capitalisation on the French Wiktionary Message-ID: <200409221849.36678.yann@forget-me.net> Hi, Capitalisation is now only an option in the French Wiktionary. So, f.e., now [[allemand]] and [[Allemand]] are two different articles. All language names are lower cases in French. Thanks, Yann -- http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux From yann at forget-me.net Wed Sep 22 21:46:12 2004 From: yann at forget-me.net (Yann Forget) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 23:46:12 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft Message-ID: <200409222346.12315.yann@forget-me.net> Hi, Mandrakesoft, the company which created and sells the Linux distribution, is interested to distribute a DVD with an English and French version of Wikipedia. This DVD will be sold in their web site and included with the next distribution, due in next April. Mandrakesoft will take legal responsibilities for this publication and is ready to donate some money to the Wikimedia Foundation. The amount is still to be decided. Mandrakesoft wants that we provide them with a master DVD, and would like to complete this first edition for Christmas. As you may have noticed, a mention about this was included in the press release and the newsletter with the authorization of Mandrakesoft who will also publish a press release about this project. The summary below is also available on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_and_Mandrakesoft == Points fixed so far == * It will first be sold on Mandrake web site, then included in the next version of the distribution. * It will include only the current version of the English and French distribution. Mandrakesoft publishes a French version sold in French speaking countries and an English (international) version sold elsewhere in the world. The English Wikipedia will be sold with the international version of Mandrake Linux. * Mandrakesoft asks that the Wikimedia Foundation provide them with a master DVD. * Mandrakesoft will take the legal responsibility for this publication. * Fair use images should be removed as the publication has to comply with worldwide copyright standards, not US only. Also images without proper licensing information have to be removed. == Questions that need answering == * Do we include only complete articles or the whole of Wikipedia including stubs? * How do we package it? Several possibilities, see the page on meta. == What you can do == So we need some help to complete this project. * Work is needed to provide proper lisensing information on all images in the English Wikipedia. * Help packaging. Help with technical knowledge is needed here. Med and Hashar, among others, are already working on this. Thanks, Yann -- http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux From erik_moeller at gmx.de Wed Sep 22 22:51:00 2004 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: 23 Sep 2004 00:51:00 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <200409222346.12315.yann@forget-me.net> Message-ID: <9HO2gV$xpVB@erik_moeller> Yann- > Hi, > Mandrakesoft, the company which created and sells the Linux distribution, is > interested to distribute a DVD with an English and French version of > Wikipedia. This DVD will be sold in their web site and included with the > next distribution, due in next April. As a responsible organization, we should make Mandrakesoft aware of the fact that no systematic vetting of all articles for copyright violations has taken place yet (at least on en:). If they want to take the responsibility for some guy inserting chapters from a book, or the text of a paper, or a magazine article, into Wikipedia, then that's OK, but this *is* a substantial risk, because changing the text on thousands of distributed DVDs is obviously a lot harder than taking down some bad revisions from our site. If Mandrakesoft ends up getting into trouble for this, I would like us to be able to publicly say "Shit happens, but we told you so" when this hits Slashdot or the New York Times. Unfortunately it's a little too easy - and therefore tempting - to create physical media distributions. We *really* need a working peer review mechanism in place before we go into that business. Besides fact-checking, we need a process where there are people who check the text against subscriber-only electronic archives, offline sources etc. for copyright violations, for example. This should be less difficult than it sounds if an expert in the field is checking the article anyway - those people usually have easy access to material in their field. Even basic Google searches are often not done. In terms of automated scanning, we should at least cover Google, groups.google and the Amazon.com "search inside the book" feature. Am I the only one who is worried about this? Regards, Erik From delirium at hackish.org Wed Sep 22 22:58:19 2004 From: delirium at hackish.org (Delirium) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:58:19 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <9HO2gV$xpVB@erik_moeller> References: <9HO2gV$xpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <4152038B.7010801@hackish.org> Erik Moeller wrote: >Am I the only one who is worried about this? > > Probably not--I think a good first step would be to contact someone appropriate at MandrakeSoft and see if they really know what they're getting into. When they say they're willing to take the legal risk, do they know that there is a non-negligible chance that there are copyrighted materials in there somewhere? Or are they only thinking about libel/etc.? It's possible they're familiar with Wikipedia and already know all this, but someone should find out. Besides that though, I don't see how we could possibly have any sort of peer-reviewed or even reasonably sifted version of Wikipedia available in time for a Christmas distribution, especially given the code infrastructure isn't in place yet for it to start. When they say they want a master DVD, do they mean some sort of reasonably vetted one, or are they waiting for us to stick a current snapshot on a DVD? -Mark From brion at pobox.com Wed Sep 22 23:20:00 2004 From: brion at pobox.com (Brion Vibber) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:20:00 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <200409222346.12315.yann@forget-me.net> References: <200409222346.12315.yann@forget-me.net> Message-ID: On Sep 22, 2004, at 2:46 PM, Yann Forget wrote: > Mandrakesoft wants that we provide them with a master DVD, and would > like to > complete this first edition for Christmas. I have to warn that this schedule sounds insanely optimistic. Somebody would need to check and lock off for publishing several thousand articles each day in order to meet this deadline. -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PGP.sig Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 186 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20040922/ebc33951/attachment-0001.pgp From t.starling at physics.unimelb.edu.au Thu Sep 23 01:21:38 2004 From: t.starling at physics.unimelb.edu.au (Tim Starling) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:21:38 +1000 Subject: [Foundation-l] Ahhh crosspost!!! (was Re: Partnership with Mandrakesoft) In-Reply-To: <200409222346.12315.yann@forget-me.net> References: <200409222346.12315.yann@forget-me.net> Message-ID: <41522522.6010003@physics.unimelb.edu.au> Yann Forget wrote: > Hi, > > Mandrakesoft, the company which created and sells the Linux > distribution, is interested to distribute a DVD with an English and > French version of Wikipedia. This DVD will be sold in their web site > and included with the next distribution, due in next April. That's all very interesting, but did you have to tell me about it FIVE TIMES??? Please follow up to wikipedia-l. -- Tim Starling From brion at pobox.com Thu Sep 23 01:26:48 2004 From: brion at pobox.com (Brion Vibber) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:26:48 -0700 Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040922183228.0264fd70@shawmail> References: <200409222346.12315.yann@forget-me.net> <200409222346.12315.yann@forget-me.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20040922183228.0264fd70@shawmail> Message-ID: On Sep 22, 2004, at 6:40 PM, Bryan Derksen wrote: > My impression was that this isn't going to be a "reviewed" 1.0-style > Wikipedia, but rather a plain old snapshot that's had all the images > lacking the correct licencing tags automatically stripped out, and > possibly the articles with {{stub}} in them stripped out as well > (personally I think stubs should be left in, but IMO it's probably not > a major issue either way). The downside of this approach is that it's > bound to catch a few articles in a "bad" state, but the upside is that > it will actually be possible to do it in the timeframe needed. Certainly we could give them a stripped dump in that timeframe, but I think they'd be wasting a lot of money pressing it to disc in that state. I can't support this as described. -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PGP.sig Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 186 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20040922/9eb12356/attachment-0001.pgp From anthere9 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 23 04:30:51 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 06:30:51 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Partnership with Mandrakesoft References: <9HO2gV$xpVB@erik_moeller> <4152038B.7010801@hackish.org> Message-ID: <4152517B.3080607@yahoo.com> Delirium a ?crit: > Erik Moeller wrote: > >> Am I the only one who is worried about this? >> >> > Probably not--I think a good first step would be to contact someone > appropriate at MandrakeSoft and see if they really know what they're > getting into. When they say they're willing to take the legal risk, do > they know that there is a non-negligible chance that there are > copyrighted materials in there somewhere? Or are they only thinking > about libel/etc.? It's possible they're familiar with Wikipedia and > already know all this, but someone should find out. The discussion with Mandrakesoft has been ongoing for perhaps 2 months. Yann is the primary contact with them, and he explained all that with them. The board has been in copy of most of the mails, and Angela is the primary contact for this whole topic. So, possibly, the first good step to do was already done, and it is not necessarily to find someone to check out if they already know about this. If Yann is announcing this for you, it is because the deal is now public, not because the deal was just suggested yesterday. The french wikipedia has been labelling all its pictures during summer for that perspective, and it was strongly suggested that en does the same as well. ant From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 06:59:28 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 02:59:28 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <4152517B.3080607@yahoo.com> References: <9HO2gV$xpVB@erik_moeller> <4152038B.7010801@hackish.org> <4152517B.3080607@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <742dfd06040922235938c4ee42@mail.gmail.com> > The french > wikipedia has been labelling all its pictures during summer for that > perspective, and it was strongly suggested that en does the same as well. See for instance http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Image tagging -- +sj+ From jwales at wikia.com Thu Sep 23 09:08:15 2004 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 02:08:15 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <9HO2gV$xpVB@erik_moeller> References: <200409222346.12315.yann@forget-me.net> <9HO2gV$xpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <20040923090815.GI22361@wikia.com> Erik Moeller wrote: > Am I the only one who is worried about this? I strongly share your worries. --Jimbo From jwales at wikia.com Thu Sep 23 09:09:44 2004 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 02:09:44 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <4152038B.7010801@hackish.org> References: <9HO2gV$xpVB@erik_moeller> <4152038B.7010801@hackish.org> Message-ID: <20040923090944.GJ22361@wikia.com> Delirium wrote: > Probably not--I think a good first step would be to contact someone > appropriate at MandrakeSoft and see if they really know what they're > getting into. You probably aren't aware that formal talks have been going on for 2 months now. This wasn't just suggested yesterday, there has been substantial communication. --Jimbo From beesley at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 11:39:37 2004 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 12:39:37 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <20040923090944.GJ22361@wikia.com> References: <9HO2gV$xpVB@erik_moeller> <4152038B.7010801@hackish.org> <20040923090944.GJ22361@wikia.com> Message-ID: <8b722b800409230439847a50c@mail.gmail.com> Mandrakesoft are aware of our editing processes. They know what they are getting, and that the content has not been verified. They have agreed to take legal responsibility for this. Basically, the only changes we are making is to remove images tagged as fair use, unknown, unverified and other unsuitable ones. Since the image tagging efforts on the English Wikipedia are going fairly slowly, there may be a large number of untagged images would also need to be removed. The arguments over whether a Wikipedia DVD is going to be useful to people aren't really for us to decide. Mandrake obviously think people are interested in this, and if they turn out not to be because they can read it online, then we haven't lost anything. The chances are though that this will significantly increase the exposure of Wikipedia to a wider audience. Hopefully many of them will access it online, and even become editors themselves, but I don't think that detracts from the appeal of having a DVD published. This DVD production is in no way meant to deter people from the validation processes that are being proposed. Obviously these will be hugely beneficial for future distributions. However, it's also going to take a very long time before the product of such processes is ready, so distributing a non-validated version in advance of that is beneficial. No one is claiming this distribution is perfect, but as a snapshot of Wikipedia I feel it is valuable. It's great advertising for us, it's great as an early trial of distributing our content offline, and it's great for raising awareness of the need to tag images properly. I strongly encourage others to help with the tagging drive as there are still many untagged images that can not be distributed at this stage. I'd also like to thank the following people for taking in part in the recent drive to tag images. This is based on the recent changes to the lists of untagged images, and the list of participants at [[Wikipedia:Image copyright tags]], so I apologize in advance for anyone I've missed out: Yann, Jdforrester, Eugene van der Pijll, Tom-, Diberri, Rich Farmbrough, Gamaliel, Stan Shebs, Lupin, Sj, Blankfaze, Chmod007, GeneralPatton, Frecklefoot, Sunborn, Morven, ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason, Trilobite, Poccil, Morwen, Secretlondon, Anthony DiPierro, Imran, Maximus Rex, Flockmeal, Guanaco, and Frazzydee. Thanks also to Looxix for creating the lists of untagged images and everyone who has been doing the same task on the French Wikipedia. Please help with the tagging at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Yann/Untagged_Images and see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_and_Mandrakesoft for further information. Angela. From beesley at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 16:46:41 2004 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:46:41 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] BBC Go Digital Message-ID: <8b722b800409230946150f52e1@mail.gmail.com> BBC's "Go Digital" radio programme (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/1478157.stm), have contacted me about doing an interview for them. They would also like to speak to someone outside of Europe or the US. The interview will be focusing on the fact Wikipedia has just reached one million articles, and will have a global slant since the World Service program goes out worldwide. The interview could be by phone, or, preferably, in a studio if someone who lives near a BBC studio could be found. They are particularly looking for someone who is able to talk about the use of Wikipedia in their country, not only the editing of it. I don't know the exact date of when this will happen, but they are phoning me back to tomorrow hoping for a contact for the other part of the report. If anyone would be interested in being interviewed for this, please contact me as soon as possible. Thank you. Angela. From fredbaud at ctelco.net Thu Sep 23 17:01:59 2004 From: fredbaud at ctelco.net (Fred Bauder) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:01:59 -0600 Subject: [Foundation-l] BBC Go Digital In-Reply-To: <8b722b800409230946150f52e1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: You know it might be nice if someone from the Chinese Wikipedia could be interviewed in light of recent difficulties. Provided they know what they are getting into. Fred > From: Angela > Reply-To: Angela , Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List > > Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:46:41 +0100 > To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List > Subject: [Foundation-l] BBC Go Digital > > BBC's "Go Digital" radio programme > (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/1478157.stm), have contacted me > about doing an interview for them. They would also like to speak to > someone outside of Europe or the US. The interview will be focusing on > the fact Wikipedia has just reached one million articles, and will > have a global slant since the World Service program goes out > worldwide. The interview could be by phone, or, preferably, in a > studio if someone who lives near a BBC studio could be found. They are > particularly looking for someone who is able to talk about the use of > Wikipedia in their country, not only the editing of it. > > I don't know the exact date of when this will happen, but they are > phoning me back to tomorrow hoping for a contact for the other part of > the report. > > If anyone would be interested in being interviewed for this, please > contact me as soon as possible. > > Thank you. > > Angela. > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l From jean-christophe.chazalette at laposte.net Thu Sep 23 18:13:33 2004 From: jean-christophe.chazalette at laposte.net (Jean-Christophe Chazalette) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:13:33 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft References: <9HO2gV$xpVB@erik_moeller> <4152038B.7010801@hackish.org><20040923090944.GJ22361@wikia.com> <8b722b800409230439847a50c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001101c4a199$0ba70560$0200a8c0@jchristophe> Are we talking about a formal written contract or about an oral agreement ? Needless to say I strongly encourage a formal distribution deal, the transfer of responsibilty having quite a big potential of financial troubles (suing Wikimedia Foundation is not an opportunity because it is a Foundation and it has no significant financial background, this is not at all the same for MandrakeSoft ...). If needed, I'm willing to assess such a written contract. villy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angela" To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft Mandrakesoft are aware of our editing processes. They know what they are getting, and that the content has not been verified. They have agreed to take legal responsibility for this. Basically, the only changes we are making is to remove images tagged as fair use, unknown, unverified and other unsuitable ones. Since the image tagging efforts on the English Wikipedia are going fairly slowly, there may be a large number of untagged images would also need to be removed. The arguments over whether a Wikipedia DVD is going to be useful to people aren't really for us to decide. Mandrake obviously think people are interested in this, and if they turn out not to be because they can read it online, then we haven't lost anything. The chances are though that this will significantly increase the exposure of Wikipedia to a wider audience. Hopefully many of them will access it online, and even become editors themselves, but I don't think that detracts from the appeal of having a DVD published. This DVD production is in no way meant to deter people from the validation processes that are being proposed. Obviously these will be hugely beneficial for future distributions. However, it's also going to take a very long time before the product of such processes is ready, so distributing a non-validated version in advance of that is beneficial. No one is claiming this distribution is perfect, but as a snapshot of Wikipedia I feel it is valuable. It's great advertising for us, it's great as an early trial of distributing our content offline, and it's great for raising awareness of the need to tag images properly. I strongly encourage others to help with the tagging drive as there are still many untagged images that can not be distributed at this stage. I'd also like to thank the following people for taking in part in the recent drive to tag images. This is based on the recent changes to the lists of untagged images, and the list of participants at [[Wikipedia:Image copyright tags]], so I apologize in advance for anyone I've missed out: Yann, Jdforrester, Eugene van der Pijll, Tom-, Diberri, Rich Farmbrough, Gamaliel, Stan Shebs, Lupin, Sj, Blankfaze, Chmod007, GeneralPatton, Frecklefoot, Sunborn, Morven, ?var Arnfj?r? Bjarmason, Trilobite, Poccil, Morwen, Secretlondon, Anthony DiPierro, Imran, Maximus Rex, Flockmeal, Guanaco, and Frazzydee. Thanks also to Looxix for creating the lists of untagged images and everyone who has been doing the same task on the French Wikipedia. Please help with the tagging at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Yann/Untagged_Images and see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_and_Mandrakesoft for further information. Angela. _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l at wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l From rowan.collins at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 20:54:58 2004 From: rowan.collins at gmail.com (Rowan Collins) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 21:54:58 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] favicons In-Reply-To: <742dfd060409220042320796e5@mail.gmail.com> References: <20040922050342.GA14941@mongoose> <742dfd060409220042320796e5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9f02ca4c0409231354f126af2@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 03:42:05 -0400, Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote: > That's really cool. I would love to see different favicons, too... also for the > foundationwiki and wiktionary. Boy, how I hate that word "favicon"! Everything about it makes me cringe, from it's association with "favorites" to the way it sounds! Nice graphics, though, and a really good idea - it's one more helping hand to get the other parts of Wikimedia out from the shadow of Wikipedia. > On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 22:03:42 -0700, Joshua Swink wrote: > > I have made some simple ones for Meta, Wikibooks and Wikiquote, > > and was wondering if someone could put them on the wikis. They > > are at http://yath.phreadom.net/wikicons/. -- Rowan Collins BSc [IMSoP] From yann at forget-me.net Thu Sep 23 22:36:48 2004 From: yann at forget-me.net (Yann Forget) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 00:36:48 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <001101c4a199$0ba70560$0200a8c0@jchristophe> References: <9HO2gV$xpVB@erik_moeller> <8b722b800409230439847a50c@mail.gmail.com> <001101c4a199$0ba70560$0200a8c0@jchristophe> Message-ID: <200409240036.48781.yann@forget-me.net> Le Thursday 23 September 2004 20:13, Jean-Christophe Chazalette a ?crit : > Are we talking about a formal written contract or about an oral agreement ? > Needless to say I strongly encourage a formal distribution deal, the > transfer of responsibilty having quite a big potential of financial > troubles (suing Wikimedia Foundation is not an opportunity because it is a > Foundation and it has no significant financial background, this is not at > all the same for MandrakeSoft ...). If needed, I'm willing to assess such a > written contract. > > villy Thanks, Villy. I will need your help for drafting a notice. Yann -- http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclop?die libre http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux From erik_moeller at gmx.de Fri Sep 24 01:39:00 2004 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: 24 Sep 2004 03:39:00 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <8b722b800409230439847a50c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9HS3$2xxpVB@erik_moeller> Angela- > Mandrakesoft are aware of our editing processes. They know what they > are getting, and that the content has not been verified. They have > agreed to take legal responsibility for this. Well, we obviously can't stop them from doing it. As long as we've publicly and privately disclaimed liability, I think we're reasonably safe from a legal position. But please do not underestimate the legal mess they could get into. It's not just image tagging. It's quite likely that there are at least a few hundred undetected copyvios on en: and fr:, from books, unindexed websites, closed electronic archives, newspaper articles, magazines, journals, and so forth, and probably even quite a few Google- indexed pages or articles which contain small fragments thereof. This is not because people are malicious but because many people simply have no concept of copyright. It is a stupid idea to begin with, so it takes quite a while for people to grasp the notion that certain sequences of words can be owned. Even with people understanding the concept of IP in one context (music, movies) they often have difficulties translating it into other contexts (texts, images, recipes ..) Therefore, this: > It's great advertising for us, it's > great as an early trial of distributing our content offline, and it's > great for raising awareness of the need to tag images properly. seems a little too enthusiastic. "Raising awareness" is not always a good thing if it leads to lawsuits and headlines like "Wiki-fiddlers steal from many sources". Also, we are *aware* of the need to tag images properly. May I suggest that the board promote these two things to get the process into motion: 1) make open list of untagged images and announce properly on community portal and the like that all of these images which are not tagged by date N will be hidden 2) fix stupid upload form (They should happen at the same time.) Regards, Erik From maveric149 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 24 02:39:35 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 19:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <9HS3$2xxpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <20040924023935.34606.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Erik Moeller wrote: > 1) make open list of untagged images and announce properly on community > portal and the like that all of these images which are not tagged by date > N will be hidden > 2) fix stupid upload form > (They should happen at the same time.) I'm in 100% agreement with Erik on these points. I also do *not* want to see my favorite Linux distro get in trouble over this. But would it be possible to automatically exclude untagged images when the date arrives? Or would humans have to comment each out in wiki text? My understanding of the category system is that it is not yet up to task to do this type of thing. But things change so fast around here, I'm probably wrong on that point. Is so, please explain. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From eric at eric-poehlsen.de Fri Sep 24 03:47:22 2004 From: eric at eric-poehlsen.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Eric_P=F6hlsen?=) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 10:17:22 +0630 Subject: AW: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <9HS3$2xxpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <200409240449.i8O4nC7C023093@post.webmailer.de> > 2) fix stupid upload form > (They should happen at the same time.) I do not post often in this list, but just want to mention that discussions for a better uploadform were running for ages and nothing has happened yet :( From sheng.jiong at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 06:19:30 2004 From: sheng.jiong at gmail.com (Jiong Sheng) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 06:19:30 +0000 Subject: [Foundation-l] BBC Go Digital In-Reply-To: References: <8b722b800409230946150f52e1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8d1c75f50409232319677d8501@mail.gmail.com> This might not be a good idea. BBC is not deemed as "friendly" by the Chinese government: its Chinese website is already blocked for years (maybe since its existence). This could only get things worse. On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:01:59 -0600, Fred Bauder wrote: > You know it might be nice if someone from the Chinese Wikipedia could be > interviewed in light of recent difficulties. Provided they know what they > are getting into. > From andrew.lih at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 06:35:29 2004 From: andrew.lih at gmail.com (Andrew Lih) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 14:35:29 +0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] BBC Go Digital In-Reply-To: <8d1c75f50409232319677d8501@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b800409230946150f52e1@mail.gmail.com> <8d1c75f50409232319677d8501@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ed171fb04092323353e67add3@mail.gmail.com> I agree - I don't think talking about the inaccessibility of WP in any significant way is prudent either. If they want to talk about users outside US and Europe, that's one thing. But it's still to early to tell what's going on with the access/block issue. -Andrew On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 06:19:30 +0000, Jiong Sheng wrote: > This might not be a good idea. BBC is not deemed as "friendly" by the > Chinese government: its Chinese website is already blocked for years > (maybe since its existence). This could only get things worse. > > > > On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:01:59 -0600, Fred Bauder wrote: > > You know it might be nice if someone from the Chinese Wikipedia could be > > interviewed in light of recent difficulties. Provided they know what they > > are getting into. > > > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > -- Andrew Lih andrew.lih at gmail.com From fredbaud at ctelco.net Fri Sep 24 11:16:10 2004 From: fredbaud at ctelco.net (Fred Bauder) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 05:16:10 -0600 Subject: [Foundation-l] BBC Go Digital In-Reply-To: <8d1c75f50409232319677d8501@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I guess this is a dead end. I assumed they probably had people in Beijing, as the New York Times does and that they had a reasonable working relationship with the government. Fred > From: Jiong Sheng > Reply-To: Jiong Sheng , Wikimedia Foundation Mailing > List > Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 06:19:30 +0000 > To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] BBC Go Digital > > This might not be a good idea. BBC is not deemed as "friendly" by the > Chinese government: its Chinese website is already blocked for years > (maybe since its existence). This could only get things worse. > > On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:01:59 -0600, Fred Bauder wrote: >> You know it might be nice if someone from the Chinese Wikipedia could be >> interviewed in light of recent difficulties. Provided they know what they >> are getting into. >> > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l From erik_moeller at gmx.de Fri Sep 24 20:11:00 2004 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: 24 Sep 2004 22:11:00 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Excellent work on newsletter Message-ID: <9HS41iLxpVB@erik_moeller> I'd just like to say that the first Wikimedia Quarto newsletter is very nicely done: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Quarto/0409/En-1 The use of images is just a little bit too random for my taste, but the content and organization are excellent. Kudos to everyone involved. Regards, Erik From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 20:34:34 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 16:34:34 -0400 Subject: AW: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <200409240449.i8O4nC7C023093@post.webmailer.de> References: <9HS3$2xxpVB@erik_moeller> <200409240449.i8O4nC7C023093@post.webmailer.de> Message-ID: <742dfd0604092413341aa12361@mail.gmail.com> Yes, this has certainly been discussed for a long time... Most recently, Sansculotte produced a nicely detailed set of pages based on an older mockup of Erik's for a new upload form. The important text for those pages has been translated already; but that's the easy part compared to actually implementing it. http://www.ru-info.de/upload_neu.htm http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/New_upload_form --Sj On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 10:17:22 +0630, Eric P?hlsen wrote: > > 2) fix stupid upload form > > (They should happen at the same time.) > > I do not post often in this list, but just want to mention that discussions > for a better uploadform were running for ages and nothing has happened yet > :( From ropers at ropersonline.com Fri Sep 24 20:48:40 2004 From: ropers at ropersonline.com (Jens Ropers) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 22:48:40 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Excellent work on newsletter In-Reply-To: <9HS41iLxpVB@erik_moeller> References: <9HS41iLxpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <1DD8B739-0E6B-11D9-B139-0003931DCE20@ropersonline.com> Can this be made available via email as well, same as with Featured Articles? -- ropers On 24 Sep 2004, at 22:11, Erik Moeller wrote: > I'd just like to say that the first Wikimedia Quarto newsletter is very > nicely done: > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Quarto/0409/En-1 > > The use of images is just a little bit too random for my taste, but the > content and organization are excellent. Kudos to everyone involved. > > Regards, > > Erik From ropers at ropersonline.com Fri Sep 24 21:13:57 2004 From: ropers at ropersonline.com (Jens Ropers) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 23:13:57 +0200 Subject: AW: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <742dfd0604092413341aa12361@mail.gmail.com> References: <9HS3$2xxpVB@erik_moeller> <200409240449.i8O4nC7C023093@post.webmailer.de> <742dfd0604092413341aa12361@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: May I STRONGLY suggest that we include ALL the other depreciated image tags as well? Rationale: Migrating from the current technical possibility not to include ANY tag/description while uploading directly to the limited choice of tags as per the below mockup link would be too big of a change for many users, who will feel--wrong as they might be--that their images "have to be included". This will lead to many folks picking "unknown/don't know" (unbekannt/weiss nicht) -- and practically having no license tags is ACUTELY worse than having depreciated license tags. We should have MORE metadata, not less of it. Having "depreciated license"-images in there (marked as depreciated) is A LOT better because we can always deal with these pics and/or that entire category later and we'll at least know where things are at as regards these pics. We WON'T know that in case of "unknown/don't know" -- these would just be a wild heap of wildly unknown stuff, making it acutely harder to deal with in the future. On 24 Sep 2004, at 22:34, Sj wrote: > > > new upload form. The > important text for those pages > has been translated already; but that's the easy part compared to > actually implementing it. > > http://www.ru-info.de/upload_neu.htm > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/New_upload_form > > --Sj > > On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 10:17:22 +0630, Eric P?hlsen > wrote: >>> 2) fix stupid upload form From beesley at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 21:54:06 2004 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 22:54:06 +0100 Subject: AW: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: References: <9HS3$2xxpVB@erik_moeller> <200409240449.i8O4nC7C023093@post.webmailer.de> <742dfd0604092413341aa12361@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8b722b800409241454270956e8@mail.gmail.com> I don't think I understand your point since there is absolutely no reason for people to be uploading new images with deprecated licence tags. "Unknown" is not an option. If you don't know the licence, simply do not upload it. Such images will be deleted via the new process at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Possibly_unfree_images The new upload form will not apply to existing images. Those are being dealt with via the tagging drive at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Yann/Untagged_Images Angela. On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 23:13:57 +0200, Jens Ropers wrote: > May I STRONGLY suggest that we include ALL the other depreciated image > tags as well? > > Rationale: > Migrating from the current technical possibility not to include ANY > tag/description while uploading directly to the limited choice of tags > as per the below mockup link would be too big of a change for many > users, who will feel--wrong as they might be--that their images "have > to be included". This will lead to many folks picking "unknown/don't > know" (unbekannt/weiss nicht) -- and practically having no license tags > is ACUTELY worse than having depreciated license tags. We should have > MORE metadata, not less of it. Having "depreciated license"-images in > there (marked as depreciated) is A LOT better because we can always > deal with these pics and/or that entire category later and we'll at > least know where things are at as regards these pics. We WON'T know > that in case of "unknown/don't know" -- these would just be a wild heap > of wildly unknown stuff, making it acutely harder to deal with in the > future. From beesley at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 21:56:57 2004 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 22:56:57 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Excellent work on newsletter In-Reply-To: <1DD8B739-0E6B-11D9-B139-0003931DCE20@ropersonline.com> References: <9HS41iLxpVB@erik_moeller> <1DD8B739-0E6B-11D9-B139-0003931DCE20@ropersonline.com> Message-ID: <8b722b8004092414564ecd8c2b@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 22:48:40 +0200, Jens Ropers wrote: > Can this be made available via email as well, same as with Featured > Articles? The original aim of the newsletter was to send it out via email, possibly in a ready-to-print format. There will at some point be a mailing list in which people can sign up to receive the newsletter and other important Foundation announcements. Angela. From beesley at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 23:25:51 2004 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 00:25:51 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <9HS3$2xxpVB@erik_moeller> References: <8b722b800409230439847a50c@mail.gmail.com> <9HS3$2xxpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <8b722b8004092416257989dd7a@mail.gmail.com> Brion wrote: > Wikipedia is a very valuable resource, but it's a *dynamic* one. It's not dynamic for the majority of users. Most users of the site will simply read the article, and never edit it, regardless of how wrong it might be. Therefore, for everyone other than the editors of the site, a snapshot on DVD is no worse than the snapshot they see of the online Wikipedia. > There's a *lot* of crud in general. There will be mistakes. There will be falsehoods. There will be 'FUCKFUCKFUCK' vandalism. That's covered in the disclaimers. Not quite in those words though. ;) > And in six months when they go to press, the Wikipedia on the web will be much improved I don't see how this is an argument against a DVD version. The live website will always be better, and we will prominently link to it from any static version, but if the site is acceptable enough to allow the public to see it, why is a DVD not? Wikipedia is a useful resource, despite its shortcomings. It's not just some draft awaiting approval before publication. It is already being published, even if only online. The validation processes will improve Wikipedia, but they should not be force the current version to be seen as some second-class useless collection of articles that can't be distributed. Wikipedia is good enough to distribute now and the possibility of a better version in 6 months does not negate that. Erik wrote: > Well, we obviously can't stop them from doing it. As long as we've > publicly and privately disclaimed liability, I think we're reasonably safe > from a legal position. Villy is working on a formal contract with them, so the assurances they have given us informally will be put into writing. We can never guarantee our content will be entirely free from copyright violations and no amount of Google checking will solve that. The publishers will obviously need disclaimers, insurance, and an easy way of correcting this for future distributions. > 1) make open list of untagged images and announce properly on community > portal and the like that all of these images which are not tagged by date > N will be hidden There is a list at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Yann/Untagged_Images which has been advertised many times on the village pump, goings on, the mailing list and in the IRC channel topic. It's now on the portal as well. I don't think threatening to hide them will help since there is already the threat to delete them at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Possibly_unfree_images > 2) fix stupid upload form I strongly agree. Even the one currently on the test wiki at http://test.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Upload is better than the current one. Is there any reason the one at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Uploadform1.png can not be used? If it's nowhere near completion, perhaps the developer committee could consider putting a bounty on it? mav wrote: > But would it be possible to automatically exclude untagged images They will be excluded automatically from the DVD edition. I don't yet know how the captions will be hidden from articles in cases where the image doesn't exist. Angela. From brion at pobox.com Fri Sep 24 23:39:55 2004 From: brion at pobox.com (Brion Vibber) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 16:39:55 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <8b722b8004092416257989dd7a@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b800409230439847a50c@mail.gmail.com> <9HS3$2xxpVB@erik_moeller> <8b722b8004092416257989dd7a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <09BFAADF-0E83-11D9-B6DB-000A95DAA284@pobox.com> On Sep 24, 2004, at 4:25 PM, Angela wrote: >> 2) fix stupid upload form > > I strongly agree. Even the one currently on the test wiki at > http://test.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Upload is better than the > current one. Is there any reason the one at > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Uploadform1.png can not be used? It's just a mock-up. To the best of my knowledge no such form has been coded. > If it's nowhere near completion, perhaps the developer committee could > consider putting a bounty on it? As far as I know this is part of Erik's Commons proposal that's remained simply a proposal, with no code written. Erik, where are you on this? -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PGP.sig Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 186 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20040924/9ba0127f/attachment-0001.pgp From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Sat Sep 25 00:49:13 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 20:49:13 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Excellent work on newsletter In-Reply-To: <9HS41iLxpVB@erik_moeller> References: <9HS41iLxpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <742dfd060409241749779f0121@mail.gmail.com> Thank you, Erik. Your thoughts on layout design for future editions would be most welcome. There will be a formal announcement about the newsletter at the end of this weekend, with more details (such as how to sign up to receive newsletters and updates via email). In the meantime, people who are interested in following its ongoing translation are encouraged to join the translators-l mailing list (see my next post). --Sj On 24 Sep 2004 22:11:00 +0200, Erik Moeller wrote: > I'd just like to say that the first Wikimedia Quarto newsletter is very > nicely done: > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Quarto/0409/En-1 > > The use of images is just a little bit too random for my taste, but the > content and organization are excellent. Kudos to everyone involved. > > Regards, > > Erik From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Sat Sep 25 01:09:07 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 21:09:07 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] New mailing list for translators Message-ID: <742dfd0604092418095028ab1a@mail.gmail.com> A new multilingual mailing list has been set up for people interested in translations of wikimedia content. You can sign up here : http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l The list will announce new content for translation as soon as it is created, and provide a place to talk about the progress of translations. New content includes new Mediawiki: messages and sitewide notices, and important changes to pages on the wikimediafoundation site. --SJ From elian at djini.de Sat Sep 25 01:32:06 2004 From: elian at djini.de (Elisabeth Bauer) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 03:32:06 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <8b722b8004092416257989dd7a@mail.gmail.com> References: <8b722b800409230439847a50c@mail.gmail.com> <9HS3$2xxpVB@erik_moeller> <8b722b8004092416257989dd7a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4154CA96.7070707@djini.de> Angela wrote: > Brion wrote: >>There's a *lot* of crud in general. There will be mistakes. There will >>be falsehoods. There will be 'FUCKFUCKFUCK' vandalism. > > That's covered in the disclaimers. Not quite in those words though. ;) A cd-edition of the german wikipedia is currently produced. Before we gave the data away, I did a fulltext search on several terms like this - I didn't get any results ;-) greetings, elian From beesley at gmail.com Sat Sep 25 02:03:02 2004 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 03:03:02 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikipeople Message-ID: <8b722b80040924190318461310@mail.gmail.com> After discussing the creation of Wikipeople on IRC this evening, I am no longer convinced that there is a consensus about what the proposed project is supposed to be. Personally, I had thought it was supposed to take over what is currently the September 11 memorial wiki, but perhaps I was mistaken about that being its aim due to the fact the discussion of Wikipeople started out at the Wikimorial page on Meta. I think a lot of questions need answering before the project can be created. For example: 1 Should this project exist? 2 Should the current Sep11 wiki articles be moved here? 3 Should the Sep11 wiki be removed and redirected to Wikipeople? 4 Should the creation of this project wait until a Wikidata structure exists? 5 Should Wikidata be a project that can hold both Wikipeople and Wikispecies? 6 Should this be a project in its own right with no links to Sep11 wiki or Wikispecies? 7 Which domain should be used? If anyone has opinions on the above points, please make them at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikipeople so that an informed decision can be made about whether to create this project and what its aim is supposed to be. Thanks. Angela. From saintonge at telus.net Sat Sep 25 06:46:14 2004 From: saintonge at telus.net (Ray Saintonge) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 23:46:14 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <4154CA96.7070707@djini.de> References: <8b722b800409230439847a50c@mail.gmail.com> <9HS3$2xxpVB@erik_moeller> <8b722b8004092416257989dd7a@mail.gmail.com> <4154CA96.7070707@djini.de> Message-ID: <41551436.10003@telus.net> Elisabeth Bauer wrote: > Angela wrote: > >> Brion wrote: > >>> There's a *lot* of crud in general. There will be mistakes. There will >>> be falsehoods. There will be 'FUCKFUCKFUCK' vandalism. >> >> That's covered in the disclaimers. Not quite in those words though. ;) > > A cd-edition of the german wikipedia is currently produced. Before we > gave the data away, I did a fulltext search on several terms like this > - I didn't get any results ;-) Is the search function currently picking up the offending term when it is buried in a would-be 12-letter word as in the example? Ec From erik_moeller at gmx.de Sat Sep 25 08:29:00 2004 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: 25 Sep 2004 10:29:00 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <09BFAADF-0E83-11D9-B6DB-000A95DAA284@pobox.com> Message-ID: <9HW4OrFxpVB@erik_moeller> Brion- > As far as I know this is part of Erik's Commons proposal that's > remained simply a proposal, with no code written. Erik, where are you > on this? My final deadline for my book is Sep. 30, after which point I have more time for Wikimedia issues. The Commons code is one of the things I'd like to start working on then. However, I'd have no problem working on the basis of a slightly improved standard upload form, e.g. one using a to provide a list of licenses and generating {{FDL}}, {{PD}} etc. based on that. That would already be a great step forward. Regards, Erik From brion at pobox.com Sat Sep 25 09:51:18 2004 From: brion at pobox.com (Brion Vibber) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 02:51:18 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Partnership with Mandrakesoft In-Reply-To: <9HW4OrFxpVB@erik_moeller> References: <9HW4OrFxpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <729C2E83-0ED8-11D9-8440-000A95DAA284@pobox.com> On Sep 25, 2004, at 1:29 AM, Erik Moeller wrote: > Brion- >> As far as I know this is part of Erik's Commons proposal that's >> remained simply a proposal, with no code written. Erik, where are you >> on this? > > My final deadline for my book is Sep. 30, after which point I have more > time for Wikimedia issues. The Commons code is one of the things I'd > like > to start working on then. However, I'd have no problem working on the > basis of a slightly improved standard upload form, e.g. one using a > to provide a list of licenses and generating {{FDL}}, > {{PD}} > etc. based on that. That would already be a great step forward. Spiffy, thanks. -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PGP.sig Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 186 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/attachments/20040925/81cb1652/attachment-0001.pgp From anthonydipierro at hotmail.com Sat Sep 25 21:28:56 2004 From: anthonydipierro at hotmail.com (Anthony DiPierro) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 17:28:56 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikipeople Message-ID: Well, here are my answers re wikipeople. 1 Should this project exist? If there are people who want it, I don't see why not. 2 Should the current Sep11 wiki articles be moved here? This is a question which should be determined by the people who use the wiki. 3 Should the Sep11 wiki be removed and redirected to Wikipeople? That should be up to the people who use the sep11 wiki. 4 Should the creation of this project wait until a Wikidata structure exists? I've never heard of Wikidata, so no. 5 Should Wikidata be a project that can hold both Wikipeople and Wikispecies? Definitely not. Wikispecies and Wikipeople are completely different projects created for completely different reasons. Wikispecies is supposed to be a language neutral subset of Wikipedia. Wikipeople is largely supposed to be for information not in Wikipedia. 6 Should this be a project in its own right with no links to Sep11 wiki or Wikispecies? Certainly. 7 Which domain should be used? If we own wikipeople.org, that would be the best. Anthony From erik_moeller at gmx.de Sun Sep 26 03:58:00 2004 From: erik_moeller at gmx.de (Erik Moeller) Date: 26 Sep 2004 05:58:00 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Quick thoughts on fundraising Message-ID: <9H$4w7jxpVB@erik_moeller> Donations are still coming in, but not at a very high rate. We can probably make the $50K goal, but we should still consider how to make our fundraising campaign more effective. One as of yet unanswered question is how many subscriptions we will get because of this campaign, which may well play a substantial role in supporting us in the long run. However, from cursory checks, the subscription rate appeared to be fairly low. I have studied online fundraising campaigns a bit. Here are some quick thoughts. Some of these things can be done right now, some require technical changes. 1) Real-time updates. We now do manual updates within regular intervals, which is good, but real-time updates generate TV-like excitement. Kuro5hin.org raised $35K in a few days using a realtime-updated progress- bar shown on every change. (K5 is much, much smaller than we are, but of course there's the added novelty effect when they did it.) This can be combined with.. 2) Immediately visible donation comments, increasing the community feel. 3) Progress-meter and PayPal link must be visible on every page, not just a separate page, i.e. like this: [==================== ] $50K Last 5 comments Wikipedia rocks! Donate [10 ] [^ EUR] [ via PayPal ] [Go] Keep it coming .. ... (You are using a non-proportional email font, right?) Note that this example includes all the form elements to make a donation with one click, with a reasonable value prefilled into the entry field. This is essential - click-through forms result in hesitation and second thoughts, and then there is the essential laziness of the web surfing process. Also, people like to click on buttons. This will take up a fair bit of screen estate, which is annoying, but I consider it necessary. We can still support turning it off via CSS, but for the duration of the campaign, we really need to grab people's attention. For extra funkiness, one could us something like mod_pubsub: http://www.mod-pubsub.org/ to do actual *real-time* real-time updates, i.e. the bar moves and comments come in even as you stay on one page. This would probably be best reserved for a separate fundraising page, though. 4) Make the form/progressbar available to external sites - if we have real-time updates, we should try to make it reasonably easy to include a graphical bar + donation form elements in your blog, on your personal homepage etc. This way we can get the whole blogosphere involved in the fundraising process. 5) Surprises - to keep the campaign exciting, surprises could be unveiled at certain milestones: articles, images, links, anything. Or maybe a "Meet the Wikimedians" series where different Wikimedia users are introduced every $1000. I'm sure we can come up with lots of ideas. Effectively, the fundraising camapign itself has to be so interesting that people will want to check it at least once daily, if not multiple times. This worked very well for the Dean campaign where they had an ongoing blog that tied directly into the fundraisers. 6) E-mail - the Dean campaign also used a huge list of email addresses for fundraising alerts. This of course has to be strictly opt-in, but could have an additional outreach effect. I'm reluctant to propose other mechanisms used by the Dean campaign, such as affiliate donation boxes on user pages, because I don't think we should target the Wikimedia contributor community too much. --- Caveat: We are in the position where the people who *should* support us often don't know who we are. They may only have a vague idea what Wikipedia is based on reading Wikipedia articles from various mirrors and occasionally from our site - they may consider us equivalentto fact-index.com, thefreedictionary.com etc. They may be just as willing to donate to these sites as to us. The people who are most targeted by any fundraising campaign are unfortunately our regular contributors, because they generate many pageviews. How to solve this dilemma? Ideas: * Give signed in users a convenient [hide] link for obnoxious fundraising headers * Raise awareness of the Wikipedia brand by - more strictly enforcing the GFDL - petitioning Google (first privately, then publicly) to give us better treatment, since we are the original source - creating an official Wikimedia affiliate program for mirrors, which would include some logos etc. to make people more aware that articles are from Wikipedia -- in return, give member sites easier ways to update their database --- Technical notes: Real-time stuff of course makes caching harder. However, using Edge Side Includes (ESI), we should be able to mark-up only the relevant part of the page as dynamic, and cache the rest. Existing code: This Drupal module contains some PHP code on PayPal IPN handling that may be useful: http://drupal.org/project/paypal_framework - - - - - - - - Now, one might make an argument that unobtrusive ads are preferable over frequent obtrusive donation campaigns. Right now I have no strong opinion either way, but based on the data available to me, I believe that a high- profile fundraising campaign could be over fairly quickly with high returns. One big problem this year is of course that it's a hotly contested US election, so many Americans have given hundreds of dollars already and don't have much money to spare for things like Wikimedia. We should consider this a good thing, because we need to put our donation model to the test properly, and this is a good opportunity to do so. Oh, and we of course need to still go for the big money in the form of institutional grants and corporate donations. The collaborative volunteer model may not be good enough here - it's fairly meticulous work where it's often a good idea to have one person on the job. Paying someone a couple grand to do this properly may provide huge returns that make our $50K campaign pale in comparison. Apologies if I've missed previous discussions on these matters - as ever so often, I'm just throwing ideas out there in the hope of contributing to finding better solutions. A final suggestion that Anthere should like: I believe that after the fundraising campaign, we should do an international poll among Wikimedians to figure out - why they donated, if they did - why they didn't donate, if they didn't - whether they told anyone else about the campaign etc. Regards, Erik From daniwo59 at aol.com Sun Sep 26 04:00:53 2004 From: daniwo59 at aol.com (daniwo59 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 00:00:53 EDT Subject: [Foundation-l] Quick thoughts on fundraising Message-ID: <1b8.272dcd9.2e8798f5@aol.com> I just wanted to add that I like all of Erik's ideas. One more thing I would like to see is how much we are earning in subscriptions, so that we can expect income monthly. Have we passed $1000 a month yet? $5,000? Danny From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 26 05:34:44 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 22:34:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Quick thoughts on fundraising In-Reply-To: <1b8.272dcd9.2e8798f5@aol.com> Message-ID: <20040926053444.27506.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> --- daniwo59 at aol.com wrote: > I just wanted to add that I like all of Erik's ideas. One more thing I would > like to see is how much we are earning in subscriptions, so that we can > expect income monthly. Have we passed $1000 a month yet? $5,000? Only 45 subscriptions set-up so far (linking contributing membership to that and sending people wampum - t-shirts, mugs, mouse pads, etc - for donating at certain levels will increase that). Counting both monthly and yearly/12 we can expect to gross: 257.50 US dollars per month + 26 pounds (46.92 USD) per month + 52 euro (63.82 USD) per month = 373.24 USD per month* *PayPal data only (I'm not sure if Moneybookers allows for subscription payments...). Daniel Mayer, Wikimedia CFO __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 26 05:51:07 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 22:51:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Quick thoughts on fundraising In-Reply-To: <9H$4w7jxpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <20040926055107.82076.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Erik Moeller wrote: > [many good things] With the exception of the idea of paying a grant admin (which is a role I would like to see us try to have done via volunteer time - at least for now - temporary consultant work is OK though), I really can't recall a single thing you suggested that I don't agree with. In fact I would very much so like to see most of it happen. The real big issue now is that somebody is going to have to code a bot to fetch and parse the PayPal data. A mechanism would also need to be added to the bot whereby Moneybookers and mail donation could be periodically added to the totals via human input (I'm not aware of a read only account access option for Moneybookers and I would never trust full access to any of our accounts to a bot). -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav) PS - could you add your ideas to [[m:fundraising ideas]]? http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_ideas __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From delirium at hackish.org Sun Sep 26 09:50:28 2004 From: delirium at hackish.org (Delirium) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 05:50:28 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Quick thoughts on fundraising In-Reply-To: <9H$4w7jxpVB@erik_moeller> References: <9H$4w7jxpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <415690E4.7000502@hackish.org> Erik Moeller wrote: >Now, one might make an argument that unobtrusive ads are preferable over >frequent obtrusive donation campaigns. Right now I have no strong opinion >either way, but based on the data available to me, I believe that a high- >profile fundraising campaign could be over fairly quickly with high >returns. > > I can't make any claims to be a representative user, but I personally find these sorts of things *really* annoying. When I'm trying to read an encyclopedia article, I don't want a "give us money!" link at the top, especially one with exclamation marks in it! If it were some sort of big bar thing, that'd be so much the worse, especially since it doesn't go away when I actually *do* give money. Letting me hide them would be nice. I also think if these things become a regular occurance, you're going to see the donations rate get lower each time. People are wiling to donate rapidly for exceptional circumstances (like the k5 fundraiser, or the first Wikimedia fundraiser), but using them as a normal revenue stream doesn't sound that promising, imo, since it makes it sound like we're perpetually doing "emergency" fundraising, which starts to sound like "crying wolf" after a while. -Mark From daniwo59 at aol.com Sun Sep 26 14:25:03 2004 From: daniwo59 at aol.com (daniwo59 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 10:25:03 EDT Subject: [Foundation-l] Quick thoughts on fundraising Message-ID: <1a6.296b3bd2.2e882b3f@aol.com> Thanks for the information. I think we should spend more effort on getting those monthly donations, which will be very useful to maintaining the running costs. Can we, in this final week of the fundraising drive, set a goal, even minimal, of $1,000 per month? Danny From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 26 17:01:03 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 10:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Quick thoughts on fundraising In-Reply-To: <1a6.296b3bd2.2e882b3f@aol.com> Message-ID: <20040926170103.93077.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> --- daniwo59 at aol.com wrote: > Thanks for the information. I think we should spend more effort on getting > those monthly donations, which will be very useful to maintaining the running costs. I completely agree. >Can we, in this final week of the fundraising drive, set a > goal, even minimal, of $1,000 per month? I think we should first directly link donations to contributing membership and set up ways for donors, if they don't opt out, to receive wampum if they donate at certain levels. -- mav __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 26 17:12:51 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 10:12:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Quick thoughts on fundraising In-Reply-To: <415690E4.7000502@hackish.org> Message-ID: <20040926171251.69746.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Delirium wrote: > I can't make any claims to be a representative user, but I personally > find these sorts of things *really* annoying. When I'm trying to read > an encyclopedia article, I don't want a "give us money!" link at the > top, especially one with exclamation marks in it! If it were some sort > of big bar thing, that'd be so much the worse, especially since it > doesn't go away when I actually *do* give money. Letting me hide them > would be nice. Slashdot allows subscribers to turn off advertisements. Perhaps we could do the same thing except for donation notices? A skyscrapper donation button might work best since it allows the article content to be higher. I still am not gun-ho for such a thing, but I would not oppose it. > I also think if these things become a regular occurance, you're going to > see the donations rate get lower each time. People are wiling to donate > rapidly for exceptional circumstances (like the k5 fundraiser, or the > first Wikimedia fundraiser), but using them as a normal revenue stream > doesn't sound that promising, imo, since it makes it sound like we're > perpetually doing "emergency" fundraising, which starts to sound like > "crying wolf" after a while. Non-profits very regularly have fund drives and very regularly bring in millions of dollars. The National Public Radio Station in my area brings in over a million dollars from listeners each year and their listenership is much less than our readership. So I don't see any logic in your statement. This is also *not* emergency funding. We are starting to move away from that and move toward a more regular fund drive cycle (I would like one each quarter in order to more cleanly meet budgetary goals - which will also be tracked by quarter). -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From kissall at gmail.com Sun Sep 26 17:18:23 2004 From: kissall at gmail.com (Kiss All) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 12:18:23 -0500 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikipeople In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <384f6ad404092610182e9b0afa@mail.gmail.com> I don't see the necessity for a separate project for people in wiki. The existing user page is quite enough. We may add a new page gathering the user information better. On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 17:28:56 -0400, Anthony DiPierro wrote: > Well, here are my answers re wikipeople. > > 1 Should this project exist? > If there are people who want it, I don't see why not. > > 2 Should the current Sep11 wiki articles be moved here? > This is a question which should be determined by the people who use the > wiki. > > 3 Should the Sep11 wiki be removed and redirected to Wikipeople? > That should be up to the people who use the sep11 wiki. > > 4 Should the creation of this project wait until a Wikidata structure > exists? > I've never heard of Wikidata, so no. > > 5 Should Wikidata be a project that can hold both Wikipeople and > Wikispecies? > Definitely not. Wikispecies and Wikipeople are completely different > projects created for completely different reasons. Wikispecies is supposed > to be a language neutral subset of Wikipedia. Wikipeople is largely > supposed to be for information not in Wikipedia. > > 6 Should this be a project in its own right with no links to Sep11 wiki or > Wikispecies? > Certainly. > > 7 Which domain should be used? > If we own wikipeople.org, that would be the best. > > Anthony > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l at wikimedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > -- Be good.... From maveric149 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 26 17:20:49 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 10:20:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikipeople In-Reply-To: <384f6ad404092610182e9b0afa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040926172049.47691.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kiss All wrote: > I don't see the necessity for a separate project for people in wiki. > The existing user page is quite enough. We may add a new page > gathering the user information better. User pages for dead people? You can't build a genealogy database from that! :) --mav _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From anthere9 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 27 00:05:44 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 02:05:44 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Quick thoughts on fundraising References: <9H$4w7jxpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <41575958.8080508@yahoo.com> Erik Moeller a ?crit: Many suggestions, that I hope you would put on meta as well. > 6) E-mail - the Dean campaign also used a huge list of email addresses for > fundraising alerts. This of course has to be strictly opt-in, but could > have an additional outreach effect. Warning, sollicitations could have an adverse effect. > Caveat: > > We are in the position where the people who *should* support us often > don't know who we are. They may only have a vague idea what Wikipedia is > based on reading Wikipedia articles from various mirrors and occasionally > from our site - they may consider us equivalentto fact-index.com, > thefreedictionary.com etc. They may be just as willing to donate to these > sites as to us. Partially, the newsletter was also meant to adress a bit this issue. It cant do it all of course, but it could help with the regular donnors. > The people who are most targeted by any fundraising campaign are > unfortunately our regular contributors, because they generate many > pageviews. How to solve this dilemma? Ideas: > > * Give signed in users a convenient [hide] link for obnoxious fundraising > headers Some french did this in another way. They changed their css not to see the sitenotice any more ... > One big problem this year is of course that it's a hotly contested US > election, so many Americans have given hundreds of dollars already and > don't have much money to spare for things like Wikimedia. We should > consider this a good thing, because we need to put our donation model to > the test properly, and this is a good opportunity to do so. Hmmmmm. We tried to adress this issue by translating many of the donation pages. I am not sure it is a good idea to consider this a *big* issue, because I am not sure it is a good idea to make it clear that most donations are US ones. Perhaps Mav could clarify this ? > Oh, and we of course need to still go for the big money in the form of > institutional grants and corporate donations. The collaborative volunteer > model may not be good enough here - it's fairly meticulous work where it's > often a good idea to have one person on the job. Paying someone a couple > grand to do this properly may provide huge returns that make our $50K > campaign pale in comparison. > > Apologies if I've missed previous discussions on these matters - as ever > so often, I'm just throwing ideas out there in the hope of contributing to > finding better solutions. > > A final suggestion that Anthere should like: I believe that after the > fundraising campaign, we should do an international poll among Wikimedians > to figure out > - why they donated, if they did > - why they didn't donate, if they didn't > - whether they told anyone else about the campaign > etc. > > Regards, > > Erik Hmmmmm. I mentionned on fr that Aurevilly has been the first donator of this campaign. Comments I got mentionned that having such an information public was forcing a hierarchy among editors, by insisting on those giving money compared to those not giving. With such a reaction, I believe such a poll should only be "anonymous" :-) From delirium at hackish.org Mon Sep 27 01:47:04 2004 From: delirium at hackish.org (Delirium) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 21:47:04 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Quick thoughts on fundraising In-Reply-To: <20040926171251.69746.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040926171251.69746.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41577118.9040903@hackish.org> Daniel Mayer wrote: >--- Delirium wrote: > > >>I can't make any claims to be a representative user, but I personally >>find these sorts of things *really* annoying. When I'm trying to read >>an encyclopedia article, I don't want a "give us money!" link at the >>top, especially one with exclamation marks in it! If it were some sort >>of big bar thing, that'd be so much the worse, especially since it >>doesn't go away when I actually *do* give money. Letting me hide them >>would be nice. >> >> > >Slashdot allows subscribers to turn off advertisements. Perhaps we could do the same thing except for donation notices? > I'd rather it let me turn them off regardless of subscription status---if I subscribe it will be a voluntary donation to help Wikimedia because I feel it deserves my money. Trying to annoy me into giving money is irritating, because I'm *already* donating my time to help create this encyclopedia. If I want to donate money as well, or don't want to, that's my business, but it's certainly not money Wikimedia "deserves", given that they're not paying me for my content. -Mark From wikipedia at earthlink.net Mon Sep 27 03:33:28 2004 From: wikipedia at earthlink.net (Michael Snow) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 20:33:28 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Quick thoughts on fundraising In-Reply-To: <20040927014657.758391AC0527@mail.wikimedia.org> References: <20040927014657.758391AC0527@mail.wikimedia.org> Message-ID: <41578A08.9000608@earthlink.net> Daniel Mayer wrote: >Only 45 subscriptions set-up so far (linking contributing membership to that >and sending people wampum - t-shirts, mugs, mouse pads, etc - for donating at >certain levels will increase that). > >Counting both monthly and yearly/12 we can expect to gross: > >373.24 USD per month* > This is actually already a solid accomplishment - that total is almost as much as what total monthly donations amounted to earlier this year, when fundraising was at its lowest ebb. Naturally, I hope this will continue to increase. --Michael Snow From maveric149 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 27 04:01:43 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 21:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Quick thoughts on fundraising In-Reply-To: <41577118.9040903@hackish.org> Message-ID: <20040927040143.46261.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Delirium wrote: > I'd rather it let me turn them off regardless of subscription > status---if I subscribe it will be a voluntary donation to help > Wikimedia because I feel it deserves my money. Trying to annoy me into > giving money is irritating, because I'm *already* donating my time to > help create this encyclopedia. If I want to donate money as well, or > don't want to, that's my business, but it's certainly not money > Wikimedia "deserves", given that they're not paying me for my content. We recognize voluntary active members as valid and full members of the Wikimedia Foundation. So letting them turn off the notice as well is fine, IMO. It it the *readers* who should pay the great majority of the bills since, as you rightly state, editors already contribute. -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From maveric149 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 27 04:15:26 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 21:15:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Quick thoughts on fundraising In-Reply-To: <41575958.8080508@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040927041526.52208.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Anthere wrote: > Hmmmmm. We tried to adress this issue by translating many of the > donation pages. I am not sure it is a good idea to consider this a *big* > issue, because I am not sure it is a good idea to make it clear that > most donations are US ones. > > Perhaps Mav could clarify this ? USD still makes up about 60% of all donations. After the fund drive is over I'll take a look to see what percentage of USD donors actually live in the U.S. http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising/breakdown_by_currency -- Daniel Mayer (aka mav) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jwales at wikia.com Tue Sep 28 13:32:33 2004 From: jwales at wikia.com (Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 06:32:33 -0700 Subject: [Foundation-l] Quick thoughts on fundraising In-Reply-To: <1b8.272dcd9.2e8798f5@aol.com> References: <1b8.272dcd9.2e8798f5@aol.com> Message-ID: <20040928133233.GN22654@wikia.com> daniwo59 at aol.com wrote: > I just wanted to add that I like all of Erik's ideas. Indeed. One thing he didn't focus on is our writing style. I find that we are frequently way too wordy and NPOV in our own marketing efforts. I'm not suggesting that we go overboard with garishness, etc., but we should recognize that many or most donations will be "impulse purchases" and to inspire that, an emotional connection is best. If we go back and read my "open letter" for our first ever fundraiser, it was a fairly emotional appeal. (I can't actually find it online right now, did it get lost?) --Jimbo From neubau at presroi.de Tue Sep 28 13:47:54 2004 From: neubau at presroi.de (Mathias Schindler) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 15:47:54 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Quick thoughts on fundraising In-Reply-To: <20040928133233.GN22654@wikia.com> References: <1b8.272dcd9.2e8798f5@aol.com> <20040928133233.GN22654@wikia.com> Message-ID: <41596B8A.6070306@presroi.de> Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote: > If we go back and read my "open letter" for our first ever fundraiser, > it was a fairly emotional appeal. (I can't actually find it online > right now, did it get lost?) http://taurus.kake.info.waseda.ac.jp/wikip/joyful/joyful.u.cgi?mode=res&no=498 English/Japanese From anthere9 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 28 19:06:08 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:06:08 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Quick thoughts on fundraising References: <1b8.272dcd9.2e8798f5@aol.com> <20040928133233.GN22654@wikia.com> Message-ID: <4159B620.1090307@yahoo.com> Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales a ?crit: > daniwo59 at aol.com wrote: > >>I just wanted to add that I like all of Erik's ideas. > > > Indeed. > > One thing he didn't focus on is our writing style. I find that we are > frequently way too wordy and NPOV in our own marketing efforts. I'm > not suggesting that we go overboard with garishness, etc., but we > should recognize that many or most donations will be "impulse > purchases" and to inspire that, an emotional connection is best. > > If we go back and read my "open letter" for our first ever fundraiser, > it was a fairly emotional appeal. (I can't actually find it online > right now, did it get lost?) > > --Jimbo It's here Jimbo...http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Quarto/0409/Fr See also http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Quarto/0409/Fr-2 (in french) http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Quarto/0409/En-2 (in english) http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Quarto/0409/Pl-2 (in polish) http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Quarto/0409/Zh-2 (in chinese) http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Quarto/0409/Ja-2 (in japanese) From anthere9 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 28 19:07:57 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:07:57 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Quick thoughts on fundraising References: <1b8.272dcd9.2e8798f5@aol.com> <20040928133233.GN22654@wikia.com> Message-ID: <4159B68D.7050807@yahoo.com> I mean your last fairly emotional open letter is here :-) (still looking for a decent french translation of your introduction, emotions are hard to translate) Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales a ?crit: > daniwo59 at aol.com wrote: > >>I just wanted to add that I like all of Erik's ideas. > > > Indeed. > > One thing he didn't focus on is our writing style. I find that we are > frequently way too wordy and NPOV in our own marketing efforts. I'm > not suggesting that we go overboard with garishness, etc., but we > should recognize that many or most donations will be "impulse > purchases" and to inspire that, an emotional connection is best. > > If we go back and read my "open letter" for our first ever fundraiser, > it was a fairly emotional appeal. (I can't actually find it online > right now, did it get lost?) > > --Jimbo From anthere9 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 28 19:06:35 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:06:35 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Quick thoughts on fundraising References: <1b8.272dcd9.2e8798f5@aol.com> <20040928133233.GN22654@wikia.com> Message-ID: <4159B63B.5070500@yahoo.com> Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales a ?crit: > daniwo59 at aol.com wrote: > >>I just wanted to add that I like all of Erik's ideas. > > > Indeed. > > One thing he didn't focus on is our writing style. I find that we are > frequently way too wordy and NPOV in our own marketing efforts. I'm > not suggesting that we go overboard with garishness, etc., but we > should recognize that many or most donations will be "impulse > purchases" and to inspire that, an emotional connection is best. > > If we go back and read my "open letter" for our first ever fundraiser, > it was a fairly emotional appeal. (I can't actually find it online > right now, did it get lost?) > > --Jimbo From beaubeaver at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 29 01:07:18 2004 From: beaubeaver at yahoo.co.uk (Nicholas Moreau) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 02:07:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Foundation-l] Webbys Message-ID: <20040929010718.48544.qmail@web25101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Has anyone nominated Wikipedia for this year's Webbys? I didn't know it costed. Not much, but certainly enough, really. I can see us submitting Wikipedia to: Community Best Copy/Writing Best Navigation/Structure Best Practices Also, can we win a second time in the same category? Nick Moreau "Zanimum" --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! From andrew.lih at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 16:01:15 2004 From: andrew.lih at gmail.com (Andrew Lih) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 00:01:15 +0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Stories of WP Message-ID: <2ed171fb04092909015f262dc0@mail.gmail.com> I'll be talking to the BBC tomorrow about Wikipedia, and they're also interested in stories about Wikipedia outside of US/Europe. Of the top 20 languages, only Chinese and Japanese are non-European. However, if anyone can point me to some interesting stories regarding users in developing countries or how Wikipedia is used in unusual ways, please let me know. Thanks! -- Andrew (User:Fuzheado) From anthere9 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 29 17:25:41 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Quarto Message-ID: <20040929172541.11233.qmail@web41821.mail.yahoo.com> Hi all, I'd like to say a few words regarding our brand new newsletter. For those who missed the fun, many contributors have been working in the past few weeks on our first global newsletter. Please, see http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Quarto/0409/En. This is the english version, but 5 versions are already finished * english * french * japanese * polish * chinese and several others are near completion and hopefully will be done in the next few days/weeks : Ar: De: Es: Fi: It: and Sv: The newsletter idea was several times mentionned last summer on meta. In particular, Angela and I thought it could be sent to members of the Foundation. A few weeks ago Jimbo also mentionned he would like to find a way to better communicate his thoughts and points of view to the whole community. He pointed out that his communication was limited by the language barrier. I then suggested we do a quarterly letter to inform people of Jimbo and the board thoughts and activities, as well as report what has been going on in the global community. Improving the communication within the community and increasing the visibility of the Foundation activity to contributors, to readers and to donators is very important. I think this newsletter is one of those steps in this direction. We also wished that this first quaterly letter coincide both with the 1.000.000 Wikipedia articles announcement and the 1st trimester of activity of Angela and I. But the problem was very very short delays !!! And naturally a huge amount of work to provide. Not only huge, but definitly requiring a lot of coordination. I asked Sj if he could be the coordinator of the newsletter. I was sure he would do a very good job and I knew he would love it ;-) I am extremely glad I did ask him, and he accepted, because I think Sj made a wonderful job and I would really like to issue a special thank you note to him for making this dream come true. I think he has been devoting many hours on it, with optimism and cheerful mood. A hand of iron in velvet gloves. I hope he is very proud because he should be :-) This newsletter has been set up in an incredible short time (resulting in a few overlappings between writing and translating, sorry about that). Its great design was made by Villy, who probably also dedicated a month wikipedia-time on it. Dozens of different people have been contributing to its content; dozen of editors from many different languages have been contributing to its translation. We had a very nice and interesting interview from Ward. Many editors also helped proofreading, typo correcting, frame fixing etc... May they all be thanked. 5 versions are currently final, and have been transferred to the wikimediafoundation website and will be advertised on the local projects. There is still some work on them to do. More editors are still working on the other versions and I guess we will end up withabout 10 fully translated versions which is really great. Next steps will be to have all of them adequately set on the foundation website, made visible on projects, and slowly to work on a pdf or print version. In all cases, I hope all those who worked on it had pleasure to do so, and feel proud of the result. I really thank all of you; it gave me a very warm feeling to see we could so well and so quickly build up such a common project (of course, I should not feel surprised by this, but... still... even after nearly 3 years on wikipedia, I am still regularly amazed :-)). I think it was an important thing to do, and among other reasons, I think it was a great way to have editors from many languages working together on a common global project. I also hope it will help smaller projects to feel more involved and drain more people to get interested in meta activities. There are some flaws in the letter naturally, I hope readers will forgive us. There will be some feedback both on the letter or on its editorial organisation, or on the content itself to provide. Please do not hesitate to give us your feedback. Perhaps on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Quarto#Feedback, so we can have an even better letter in 3 months. Anthere __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From anthere9 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 29 17:33:17 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:33:17 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Excellent work on newsletter References: <9HS41iLxpVB@erik_moeller> Message-ID: <415AF1DD.2090702@yahoo.com> Merci Erik. Erik Moeller a ?crit: > I'd just like to say that the first Wikimedia Quarto newsletter is very > nicely done: > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Quarto/0409/En-1 > > The use of images is just a little bit too random for my taste, but the > content and organization are excellent. Kudos to everyone involved. > > Regards, > > Erik From maveric149 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 29 17:26:54 2004 From: maveric149 at yahoo.com (Daniel Mayer) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:26:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Stories of WP In-Reply-To: <2ed171fb04092909015f262dc0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040929172654.3393.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> --- Andrew Lih wrote: > I'll be talking to the BBC tomorrow about Wikipedia, and they're also > interested in stories about Wikipedia outside of US/Europe. > > Of the top 20 languages, only Chinese and Japanese are non-European. > However, if anyone can point me to some interesting stories regarding > users in developing countries or how Wikipedia is used in unusual > ways, please let me know. Uh - what about the majority of English and Spanish speakers who live outside of Europe? :) -- mav _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From rowan.collins at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 18:43:35 2004 From: rowan.collins at gmail.com (Rowan Collins) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:43:35 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Stories of WP In-Reply-To: <20040929172654.3393.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> References: <2ed171fb04092909015f262dc0@mail.gmail.com> <20040929172654.3393.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9f02ca4c040929114338a0d2e@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:26:54 -0700 (PDT), Daniel Mayer wrote: > --- Andrew Lih wrote: > > I'll be talking to the BBC tomorrow about Wikipedia, and they're also > > interested in stories about Wikipedia outside of US/Europe. > > > > Of the top 20 languages, only Chinese and Japanese are non-European. > > However, if anyone can point me to some interesting stories regarding > > users in developing countries or how Wikipedia is used in unusual > > ways, please let me know. > > Uh - what about the majority of English and Spanish speakers who live outside > of Europe? :) Well, he did say "outside of US/Europe", which must put a pretty big dent in English. And both English and Spanish, are technically speaking, European languages, so his second paragraph is probably technically accurate, from a pedantic point of view. But especially with Spanish, you do have a point: I wonder how many South American contributors we have there (and what of Brazillian Portugese?)... -- Rowan Collins BSc [IMSoP] From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 19:32:50 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:32:50 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Stories of WP In-Reply-To: <2ed171fb04092909015f262dc0@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ed171fb04092909015f262dc0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <742dfd0604092912327ef44d02@mail.gmail.com> They should of course contact Wizzy Digital. http://www.wizzy.org.za/ Andy Rabagliati probably has the best stories; I think he is the one who realized Wikipedia would make a good component for their CD, and who handles retreiving the latest snapshot (he's posted about this on the wikitech list over the summer): andyr at wizzy.com RSA Tel: +27.82.681.4887 If you can't reach him, there is also a US business contact listed on their site: Larry Wood, +1.570.746.3408 On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 00:01:15 +0800, Andrew Lih wrote: > I'll be talking to the BBC tomorrow about Wikipedia, and they're also > interested in stories about Wikipedia outside of US/Europe. > > Of the top 20 languages, only Chinese and Japanese are non-European. There's always the middle east... though that may not be far enough from Europe for their tastes. From e.p.zachte at chello.nl Wed Sep 29 19:38:53 2004 From: e.p.zachte at chello.nl (Erik Zachte) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:38:53 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikipedians by country - was Stories of WP Message-ID: It would be interesting indeed to see where Wikipedians live, especially for English, Spanish, ... Wikipedias where we really have no clue where the contributors come from. A suggestion: we might add a drop down box to the user preferences screen where a user can >>optionally<< select his/her country of residence. I would really like to add info about this to the stats pages. But better wait till we have a single signon, so that each user is counted only once. Erik Zachte From andrew.lih at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 20:02:05 2004 From: andrew.lih at gmail.com (Andrew Lih) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 04:02:05 +0800 Subject: [Foundation-l] Stories of WP In-Reply-To: <9f02ca4c040929114338a0d2e@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ed171fb04092909015f262dc0@mail.gmail.com> <20040929172654.3393.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <9f02ca4c040929114338a0d2e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2ed171fb04092913024e901875@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:43:35 +0100, Rowan Collins wrote: > Well, he did say "outside of US/Europe", which must put a pretty big > dent in English. And both English and Spanish, are technically > speaking, European languages, so his second paragraph is probably > technically accurate, from a pedantic point of view. Right, I consider English and Spanish as having European roots. > But especially with Spanish, you do have a point: I wonder how > many South American contributors we have there (and what of > Brazillian Portugese?)... Yes, this is what I would like more stories about, and maybe some numbers about how many Latin American users we have now. There should be a fair number of Brazilians, since the threat of a Portuguese language split was an issue recently. But I just don't know much about the Spanish speaking WP community. -- Andrew Lih andrew.lih at gmail.com From 2.718281828 at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 21:53:09 2004 From: 2.718281828 at gmail.com (Sj) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:53:09 -0400 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikipedians by country - was Stories of WP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <742dfd0604092914536aa6b91e@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:38:53 +0200, Erik Zachte wrote: > A suggestion: we might add a drop down box to the user preferences screen > where a user can >>optionally<< select his/her country of residence. > I would really like to add info about this to the stats pages. But better > wait till we have a single signon, so that each user is counted only once. And all kinds of other optional details. City would also be useful, for instance. Some users are averse to sharing any personal information about themselves; but others are happy to share a great deal of it. And some information, like the email address, can be hidden from other users by default. +sj+ From rowan.collins at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 23:23:37 2004 From: rowan.collins at gmail.com (Rowan Collins) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 00:23:37 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikipedians by country - was Stories of WP In-Reply-To: <742dfd0604092914536aa6b91e@mail.gmail.com> References: <742dfd0604092914536aa6b91e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9f02ca4c04092916232fc5eac0@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:53:09 -0400, Sj <2.718281828 at gmail.com> wrote: > On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:38:53 +0200, Erik Zachte wrote: > > A suggestion: we might add a drop down box to the user preferences screen > > where a user can >>optionally<< select his/her country of residence. > > I would really like to add info about this to the stats pages. But better > > wait till we have a single signon, so that each user is counted only once. > > And all kinds of other optional details. City would also be useful, > for instance. Some users are averse to sharing any personal > information about themselves; but others are happy to share a great > deal of it. And some information, like the email address, can be > hidden from other users by default. My only comment is that this should *only* be on a preferences page, and we should resist temptation to ask *anything* when setting up a new account. I think the ability to say "Yes, enter a username and password, and that really is it, no more questions" is a real selling point for people to set up accounts. Which, of course, makes them easier to relate to as users, and more likely to get hooked! ;) Oh, and of course we'd have to promise not to use it for spam, even User_talk: spam (if you see what I mean). Otherwise, nice idea. Would create a database version of all those endless pages on meta: and in the Wikipedia: namespace covering this kind of thing. -- Rowan Collins BSc [IMSoP] From tomk32 at gmx.de Thu Sep 30 05:55:30 2004 From: tomk32 at gmx.de (Thomas R. Koll) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 07:55:30 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Stories of WP In-Reply-To: <2ed171fb04092909015f262dc0@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ed171fb04092909015f262dc0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040930055530.GA17214@tomk32.homelinux.org> On Thu, Sep 30, 2004 at 12:01:15AM +0800, Andrew Lih wrote: > I'll be talking to the BBC tomorrow about Wikipedia, and they're also > interested in stories about Wikipedia outside of US/Europe. > > Of the top 20 languages, only Chinese and Japanese are non-European. > However, if anyone can point me to some interesting stories regarding > users in developing countries or how Wikipedia is used in unusual > ways, please let me know. Maybe not excactly what you want, but on de: we have a group of Swiss pupils (age 15-17) who wrote a lot about the small island-country of Nauru making it to the maybe best described country in Wikipedia. They also start to translate their articles to English. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal_Nauru http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategorie:Nauru http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:CdaMVvWgS - the group of pupils ciao, tom -- == Weblinks == * http://shop.wikipedia.org - WikiReader Internet zu kaufen * http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:TomK32 * http://www.hammererlehen.de - Urlaub in Berchtesgaden From anthere9 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 30 08:29:15 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 01:29:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikipedia and sustainable development Message-ID: <20040930082915.92580.qmail@web41801.mail.yahoo.com> Hello, Wikipedia has been invited to participate to a french meeting about the use of Internet technologies in sustainable development, which will take place in february 2005, www.tic21.com. I am not sure it will be possible that we indeed participate to the meeting itself, for it is *expensive*. However, external financial support might be an option (sponsorship). In any cases, the meeting has been advertised in several ways, among which a first newsletter sent in spring 2004. The first newsletter may be visible here : http://www.tic21.com/intro.php?Page=lettreTIC21.htm A second newsletter will be send to all participants soon. This newsletter will include a collection of texts written by several implicated actors, such as french administration, french academics, France Telecom, Unesco, Fing, Agora21, local committee 21 etc... I have been asked to participate to it for Wikipedia. The organiser of the meeting suggested that I explained how the website www.planetecologie.com and Wikipedia could collaborate together (an idea on which we have been working before summer), and how and if collective intelligence could possibly be useful within sustainable development. Hmmmm. I can obviously stay at the level of short description of Wikipedia, plus add a nice paragraph of fluttery thoughts on how giving free access to information to the largest number of people is indeed a participation to sustainable developement TO MY OPINION... supporting social integration, helping making informed decisions, favoring cultural understanding hence peace, participating democracy, blablabla However, I would love being *much* more practical, and give REAL examples of our work : I have distinguished 3 potential directions of interest, * my pet topic, the ecoregions project * the brand new wikispecies and the tree of life * the Gemet I need help on the last two. I would love it if I could have a short resume of the current state of wikispecies and tree of life current state of development, and hopes of the editors participating to it. Who would be available to discuss this with me ? on irc or by mail. Second, I just could not find back the mails sent to the ml (which ml ?) about the Gemet and its integration in wiktionary. I have just no idea what the state of this project is (except that I see it is mentioned on the Gemet page itself...). Again, I would love to know more about this. I think that mentionning REAL projects, citing facts, pointing out to work already done, will speak more than a thousand words. And I believe it could have much impact on how our implication is seen by some big organisations. Who can help me ? Anthere --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! From beesley at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 21:56:15 2004 From: beesley at gmail.com (Angela) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 22:56:15 +0100 Subject: [Foundation-l] Support for local chapters Message-ID: <8b722b8004093014565930a67f@mail.gmail.com> There has apparently been a major misunderstanding over my view towards local chapters, so I want to go on record as saying I *strongly* support the idea of Wikimedia having local chapters and I always have done. The source of the misunderstanding appears to be an edit by an anonymous user: http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Talk:Membership_fees&diff=41997&oldid=41996 stating they did not see the point of local chapters. Anthere later edited the page to sign this comment as me: http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Talk:Membership_fees&diff=48109&oldid=47756 This was most definitely not me and represents the complete opposite to my view. It was only on reading the logs of the Hindi Wikimedia IRC channel that I discovered this problem. I see the existence of Wikimedia chapters as a very positive step and I will help in any way I can to encourage the growth of these. I hope to see them in every part of the world. I want one day for no one to become a member directly of the Foundation because everyone will have a local chapter they can join. Issues such as the legalities of money transfer between chapters and the Foundation in certain countries are problems that we need to work around, but these should in no way prevent the creation of a chapter in any country with a sufficient number of interested volunteers. The main reason I went to Berlin in June was so I could learn more about the process of starting a chapter since Wikimedia Germany were the first country to do this. I also went to Paris and observed the beginnings of the French chapter there, and discussed ESTU with Arno Lagrange when we were in London. I fully intend to have a UK chapter registered as a charity in this country later next year. I have never been opposed to local chapters, and I am upset that people are under the mistaken impression that I am. Angela From anthere9 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 30 22:56:16 2004 From: anthere9 at yahoo.com (Anthere) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 00:56:16 +0200 Subject: [Foundation-l] Re: Support for local chapters References: <8b722b8004093014565930a67f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <415C8F10.5020301@yahoo.com> Angela a ?crit: > I have never been opposed to local chapters, and I am upset that > people are under the mistaken impression that I am. > > Angela It was in trying to reorganise the whole page, and archive all bits that seemed to be old talk, because the page was getting very heavy and confusing, while keeping some of the unadressed comments, and I made the mistake. There were two paragraphs, and answers from me in between, with Angela signature under the second and no signature under the first. In moving and archiving it all, in an attempt to clarify who said what, I added Angela signature to what has been in reality an anon comment (visible in history). I really apology for this, and I hope Angela will believe it was not done in bad faith. I really thought it was her position at that time, though I totally had the feeling she had changed her position later on. I should have realised my mistake. I am sorry Angela.