Cross-posted to wiktionary and wikipedia; because I haven't seen a good example lately of how a merging might work; and because I've recently been through the cycle of slightly argumentative discussion that Ec seems to be falling into. Please reply to only one list, and feel free to add to or modify my example to illustrate your own ideas of what such a project might look like. SJ On 6/18/05, Sabine Cretella <sabine_cretella(a)yahoo.it> wrote: It might be more constructive to think of this position (what I believe to be Gerard's) as a logical consequence from the premise that single-language Wiktionaries can be efficiently combined by taking advantage of translation-dictionary content (specifically their linkages between words).. Great, an example! Just what we need. Consider the following English-language content: ________________________________________________________________ =minister= == [English] == minister ([n.]) 1. [A person trained to perform religious ceremonies at a Protestant church.] "The minister said a prayer on behalf of the entire congregation." || [Dutch]: predikant; ... || minister ([n.]) 2. [A person commissioned by the government for public service.] "He was newly appointed to be Minister of the Interior." ** || [Danish]: gesandt; [Dutch]: minister [m,f]; [French]: ministre [m,f]; [German]: Minister [m], Ministerin [f]; [Italian]: ministro; [Indonesian]: menteri; [Interlingua]: ministro; [Japanese]: 大臣 (だいじん, daijin); [Polish]: minister; [Spanish]: ministro [m] || minister ([n.]) 3. [A person who serves others.] minister ([vi.]) 1. [To tend to the needs of others] minister ([vt.]) 1. [To dispense, to administer] == [Dutch] == minister ([n.]) 1. [A person commissioned by the government for public service.] "Zware voet jaagt minister Anciaux uit de bocht." ** || [Danish]: gesandt; [English]: minister; [French]: ministre [m,f]; [German]: Minister [m], Ministerin [f]; [Italian]: ministro; [Indonesian]: menteri; [Interlingua]: ministro; [Japanese]: 大臣 (だいじん, daijin); [Polish]: minister; [Spanish]: ministro [m] || ________________________________________________________________ In the above examplt: a) choosing your 'interface' language may change all text in [brackets], b) content between || double bars || is stored in the database, so that the two lists of translations for "minister (English, n., 2)" "minister (Dutch, n., 1)" are actually referencing the same list of database translations [marked above by a double asterisk **] c) that bugbear of having multiple definitions for the same word in some languages, but not in others, is finessed somewhat by relegating translations to the defintion level, not the word level. [1] As far as I can tell, the current independence of "[content in] Wiktionaries in individual languages" would remain, in the most detailed proposed concatenation of many Wiktionaries into one. Things that would change: * All wiktionaries would share a single list of definition-linkages (definition 3 of word A is the same as definition 1 of word B); many of these linkages would be from one language to another, but others would be between synonyms in a single language. * All synonymous definitions would share a single list of translations, so that this list need not be pasted 100 times (and updated 100 times for each update). Sabine writes: For reference, I have tried to follow this matter carefully. I have discussed metadata issues with linguists who are designing other Wiktionary extensions. I have asked similar questions myself, of Gerard on many occasions, and in conversations with both of you. :-) And STILL the most complete published plans for, or descriptions of, an "Ultimate Wiktionary" -- or a merging of many wiktionary projects into a single one under any other name -- are not clear. Please do not blame Ec for not seeing things exactly as you do. Adding a third, and then a tenth, language IS complicated. It is doable, but complicated, and necessarily slightly imperfect [1]. However, following the Wikimedia principle of doing useful things quickly and not worrying about theoretical perfection, this will be a useful project long before its nuances are completely satisfactory to all. Of course it has value to try to make such a project work. This does not mean it is not difficult; it is! These international organizations know how difficult it is; I imagine they are curious to see how we will proceed. Let us see if our efforts make something useful, despite the difficulty involved. I am confident that they will... whatever our project is called. +SJ+ [1] There is a difficult question, which we are ignoring for now : just how precisely do all the translations of "minster (English, n., 2)" have synonymous definitions? When are two different words ever truly synonymous? But that is a discussion for another month.