It makes more overload to delete system massages in local wiki's MediaWiki namespace pages?

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mizusumashi

11 Mar 2009 11 Mar '09

4:57 p.m.

Hello everyone. I'm a sysop of Japanese Wikipedia. I'm going to delete many MediaWiki namespace pages that have same contents as betawiki. I think this work will make less operation cost. I hava a question about caching and sever's overload. My colleague said that local wiki's MediaWiki namescape pages may make less overload of it's server, because these messages chaced and default messages are read from files. I think, default messages are in PHP code files and these PHP codes may be compiled and cached between apache is alive. In other hand, messages saved in local Wiki are in DB, and they are got from DB server by all page requests. Of course, even if local Wiki's MediaWiki namespace page don't exist, access to DB server is needed - because we don't know which it exist or not before access to DB server. Therefore non-existent of a MediaWiki namespace page makes a addional process. But does this "addional process" mean just continuation to execute compiled codes without any reading from file or DB? This "overload" is same as zero, I think. It makes more overload to delete system massages in local wiki's MediaWiki namespace pages? Sorry for my poor English. Thank you. ---- [[w:ja:Mizusumashi]]

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Roan Kattouw

11 Mar 11 Mar

5:14 p.m.

mizusumashi schreef:

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If (*if*) I recall correctly, all messages are cached, no matter where (MessagesJp.php or MediaWiki: pages) they come from, so there shouldn't be a difference, other than that MediaWiki: pages each use a tiny amount of space. Roan Kattouw (Catrope)

Platonides

5:16 p.m.

Don't worry about performance, delete from the wiki and use betawiki. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Don%27t_worry_about_performance The files get heavily cached. A page-existence check is faster than retrieving tha page, but in this case, all mediawiki messages are cached at memcached. Performance difference will be minimal. I would expect it to be slighty faster with files but the error level can make it behave the other way.

Mark Clements (HappyDog)

12 Mar 12 Mar

11:49 a.m.

New subject: It makes more overload to delete system massages in local wiki's MediaWiki namespace pages?

"Platonides" <Platonides(a)gmail.com> wrote in message news:gp8rli$al3$1@ger.gmane.org...

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Is there a noticeable performance difference between the two methods if memcached is not available? Obviously this is not applicable to WMF wikis, but I imagine the majority of wikis run without any external caching (beyond whatever is present in MW itself). - Mark Clements (HappyDog)

Aryeh Gregor

1:24 p.m.

New subject: It makes more overload to delete system massages in local wiki's MediaWiki namespace pages?

On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 7:49 AM, Mark Clements (HappyDog) <gmane(a)kennel17.co.uk> wrote:

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In this case, going to the database is drastically slower. On the other hand, you have to go to the database anyway, because you don't know if the message exists in the database without querying it. So there's probably no big difference in this case either. Users without a cache should consider disabling $wgUseDatabaseMessages entirely, or use some other caching method like $wgLocalMessageCache (don't know if that actually works). They should see a large speedup from this.

Roan Kattouw

4:10 p.m.

Aryeh Gregor schreef:

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On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 7:49 AM, Mark Clements (HappyDog) <gmane(a)kennel17.co.uk> wrote:

Also note that by default, the objectcache table in the database will be used to cache messages in. Roan Kattouw (Catrope)

Gerard Meijssen

11 Mar 11 Mar

5:44 p.m.

New subject: It makes more overload to delete system massages in local wiki's MediaWiki namespace pages?

Hoi, The advantage of deleting the messages that are the same in translatewiki.net (formerly Betawiki) and the local messages is that when a message CHANGES, a change made at translatewiki.net will have an effect on your local system as well. It is for this reason that it is a good idea to have as few messages possible that are created locally. The messages that you want to have locally should contain information that is specific to your project that means are specific to the Japanese Wikipedia. Thanks, GerardM 2009/3/11 mizusumashi <mizusumashi(a)coda.ocn.ne.jp>

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Aryeh Gregor

10:36 p.m.

New subject: It makes more overload to delete system massages in local wiki's MediaWiki namespace pages?

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 12:57 PM, mizusumashi <mizusumashi(a)coda.ocn.ne.jp> wrote:

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I hava a question about caching and sever's overload. My colleague said that local wiki's MediaWiki namescape pages may make less overload of it's server, because these messages chaced and default messages are read from files. I think, default messages are in PHP code files and these PHP codes may be compiled and cached between apache is alive. In other hand, messages saved in local Wiki are in DB, and they are got from DB server by all page requests.

Messages are almost never retrieved from either the DB or from files. They're normally retrieved from memcached, regardless of where they originate. As far as I know, there should therefore be no difference at all between whether the messages come from files or from BetaWiki. It's good policy to blank messages that are the same as the default, but only so that your wiki will get any updates or improvements to the defaults automatically. (IIRC, a blank message is treated as nonexistent, and it preserves the history publicly, so this is likely preferable to deletion.)

Chad

10:39 p.m.

New subject: It makes more overload to delete system massages in local wiki's MediaWiki namespace pages?

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 6:36 PM, Aryeh Gregor <Simetrical+wikilist(a)gmail.com> wrote:

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On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 12:57 PM, mizusumashi <mizusumashi(a)coda.ocn.ne.jp> wrote:

When blanking, it would depend on the situation. Some things explicitly check for wfEmptyMsg(), some check for voiding by '-'. Deleting it merely makes you fall back to the lang files (and also getting updates), whatever the default may be. -Chad

Aryeh Gregor

11:26 p.m.

New subject: It makes more overload to delete system massages in local wiki's MediaWiki namespace pages?

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 6:39 PM, Chad <innocentkiller(a)gmail.com> wrote:

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When blanking, it would depend on the situation. Some things explicitly check for wfEmptyMsg(), some check for voiding by '-'.

Neither is relevant to what I'm saying -- those check (respectively) for whether the message is entirely unrecognized, and whether the respective bit of interface is intended to be nonexistent.

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Deleting it merely makes you fall back to the lang files (and also getting updates), whatever the default may be.

I believe blanking it does the same. Am I wrong?

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9 comments

7 participants

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participants (7)

Aryeh Gregor
Chad
Gerard Meijssen
Mark Clements (HappyDog)
mizusumashi
Platonides
Roan Kattouw