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2015-07-01 Scrum of Scrums notes

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Re: [Wikitech-l] [BREAKING CHANGE]...

Grace Gellerman

1 Jul 2015 1 Jul '15

6:29 p.m.

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Scrum_of_scrums/2015-07-01

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Legoktm

2 Jul 2 Jul

1:28 a.m.

New subject: Yandex? (was: 2015-07-01 Scrum of Scrums notes)

On 07/01/2015 11:29 AM, Grace Gellerman wrote:

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Scrum_of_scrums/2015-07-01

I noticed: "Yandex coming up soon!" under ContentTranslation. Are there more details about what this means? -- Legoktm

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Ricordisamoa

1:50 a.m.

New subject: Yandex?

Il 02/07/2015 03:28, Legoktm ha scritto:

On 07/01/2015 11:29 AM, Grace Gellerman wrote:

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Scrum_of_scrums/2015-07-01

I noticed: "Yandex coming up soon!" under ContentTranslation. Are there more details about what this means? -- Legoktm

https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T89844 I think

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Legoktm

7:55 p.m.

New subject: Yandex?

On 07/01/2015 06:50 PM, Ricordisamoa wrote:

Il 02/07/2015 03:28, Legoktm ha scritto:

I noticed: "Yandex coming up soon!" under ContentTranslation. Are there more details about what this means?

https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T89844 I think

Thanks for the pointer. After some more digging, I found <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Thread:Talk:Content_translation/Specification/Yandex_backend>. So it appears that ContentTranslation will be contacting a third-party, closed source service? Are users going to be informed that this is the case? What data is being sent? I am also interested in the answer to Nemo's question about whether this "is the first piece of proprietary software ever entering use in the Wikimedia projects land?" -- Legoktm

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Jackmcbarn

10:53 p.m.

New subject: Yandex?

On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 3:55 PM, Legoktm <legoktm.wikipedia(a)gmail.com> wrote:

So it appears that ContentTranslation will be contacting a third-party, closed source service? Are users going to be informed that this is the case? What data is being sent? I am also interested in the answer to Nemo's question about whether this "is the first piece of proprietary software ever entering use in the Wikimedia projects land?"

All of those questions concern me. I'm 100% against any sort of integration with any proprietary software or service. This really needs more notice and wider discussion.

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David Gerard

10:58 p.m.

New subject: Yandex?

On 2 July 2015 at 20:55, Legoktm <legoktm.wikipedia(a)gmail.com> wrote:

I am also interested in the answer to Nemo's question about whether this "is the first piece of proprietary software ever entering use in the Wikimedia projects land?"

[not actually relevant, but since you ask ...] First would have been Java, back when that was non-free - with Lucene running on it as a search engine. Then someone ported Lucene to C# so we used that version on Mono (an all-free stack in copyright terms at least), then Sun promised to free Java so we adopted Java before it was actually free but while the process was underway. I recall Sun also donated some Solaris 10 SPARC boxes which were used for various non-core purposes. This is all off the top of my head and I welcome historical correction. - d.

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Dan Garry

11:18 p.m.

New subject: Yandex?

On 2 July 2015 at 12:55, Legoktm <legoktm.wikipedia(a)gmail.com> wrote:

I am also interested in the answer to Nemo's question about whether this "is the first piece of proprietary software ever entering use in the Wikimedia projects land?"

The iOS app uses system libraries provided by the iOS SDK for a variety of essential functions, and obviously both the devices and the technology stack are proprietary. That's just the price we pay for wanting to be part of that ecosystem. The app and all the non-system third party libraries it uses (i.e. anything we reasonably have control over) are open source. The Android app is the same as the iOS app, except the Android operating system is open source and published under the Apache licence. That said, Android devices typically ship with proprietary software installed on them which the app does use, such as Google Play which is used for delivery of the application to most users. Dan -- Dan Garry Product Manager, Discovery Wikimedia Foundation

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Gergő Tisza

3 Jul 3 Jul

1:26 a.m.

New subject: Yandex?

On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 12:55 PM, Legoktm <legoktm.wikipedia(a)gmail.com> wrote:

I am also interested in the answer to Nemo's question about whether this "is the first piece of proprietary software ever entering use in the Wikimedia projects land?"

Translatewiki has been using Yandex for a while (and used Google while it was available, and a third one I can't remember right now). Not sure if it counts as a Wikimedia project or not. We also use MaxMind for geolocation, which is I believe free software using a proprietary database.

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Ricordisamoa

2:40 a.m.

New subject: Yandex?

Il 02/07/2015 21:55, Legoktm ha scritto:

I am also interested in the answer to Nemo's question about whether this "is the first piece of proprietary software ever entering use in the Wikimedia projects land?"

Also Qualtrics <https://it.wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:Bar/Archivio/2013.10#Sondaggio_su_Wikisource>

-- Legoktm _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Federico Leva (Nemo)

5:21 a.m.

New subject: Yandex?

FYI https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_projects has a list; it means the wikis themselves (MediaWiki), not stuff around them. Nemo

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Legoktm

10 Nov 10 Nov

6:47 p.m.

New subject: Yandex?

On 07/02/2015 12:55 PM, Legoktm wrote:

On 07/01/2015 06:50 PM, Ricordisamoa wrote:

Il 02/07/2015 03:28, Legoktm ha scritto:

I noticed: "Yandex coming up soon!" under ContentTranslation. Are there more details about what this means?

https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T89844 I think

Thanks for the pointer. After some more digging, I found <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Thread:Talk:Content_translation/Specification/Yandex_backend>. So it appears that ContentTranslation will be contacting a third-party, closed source service? Are users going to be informed that this is the case? What data is being sent?

It appears[1] this has quietly gone ahead without any response here, which is disappointing. [1] https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Content_translation/Documentati… -- Legoktm

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C. Scott Ananian

7:56 p.m.

New subject: Yandex?

Transcribing from the last Metrics Meeting ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePV-7nhO-z0 around minute 54, and then more specifically in response to a question at 55:35): "We have apertium running... we are going to add the yandex service... we found out that different languages have different translation tools... so it really depends on which language pairs ... we are looking for *many* plugin [backends]." Cc'ing Santhosh, who was the presenter. Hope that helps. --scott On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 1:47 PM, Legoktm <legoktm.wikipedia(a)gmail.com> wrote:

On 07/02/2015 12:55 PM, Legoktm wrote:

On 07/01/2015 06:50 PM, Ricordisamoa wrote:

Il 02/07/2015 03:28, Legoktm ha scritto:

I noticed: "Yandex coming up soon!" under ContentTranslation. Are there more details about what this means?

https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T89844 I think

Thanks for the pointer. After some more digging, I found <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Thread:Talk:Content_translation/Specification/Yandex_backend>. So it appears that ContentTranslation will be contacting a third-party, closed source service? Are users going to be informed that this is the case? What data is being sent?

It appears[1] this has quietly gone ahead without any response here, which is disappointing. [1] https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Content_translation/Documentati… -- Legoktm _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

-- (http://cscott.net)

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John Mark Vandenberg

8:31 p.m.

New subject: Yandex?

On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 5:47 AM, Legoktm <legoktm.wikipedia(a)gmail.com> wrote:

On 07/02/2015 12:55 PM, Legoktm wrote:

On 07/01/2015 06:50 PM, Ricordisamoa wrote:

Il 02/07/2015 03:28, Legoktm ha scritto:

I noticed: "Yandex coming up soon!" under ContentTranslation. Are there more details about what this means?

https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T89844 I think

Thanks for the pointer. After some more digging, I found <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Thread:Talk:Content_translation/Specification/Yandex_backend>. So it appears that ContentTranslation will be contacting a third-party, closed source service? Are users going to be informed that this is the case? What data is being sent?

It appears[1] this has quietly gone ahead without any response here, which is disappointing. [1] https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Content_translation/Documentati…

As the user is isolated from the communication with Yandex , I don't see it as a huge problem. Using Qualtrics seems to be a much more serious problem, and nobody seems to care about that. Yandex is sort of similar to a "MP4 upload only" support, only without the patent concerns. Relying on it comes at the risk that the service stops, but the free content created is not infected. More likely, Yandex will start asking WMF for money, and WMF decides to pay because it is 'easier' than terminating using the service. Anyway, I've added it to https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Open_source -- John Vandenberg

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C. Scott Ananian

9:12 p.m.

New subject: Yandex?

According to my listening of that Metrics meeting, it does seem like WMF is going to have to pay Yandex for using its service. But as you say, that doesn't infect the actual translation text, which goes into wikipedia and extends the free content available for everyone. --scott On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 3:31 PM, John Mark Vandenberg <jayvdb(a)gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 5:47 AM, Legoktm <legoktm.wikipedia(a)gmail.com> wrote:

On 07/02/2015 12:55 PM, Legoktm wrote:

On 07/01/2015 06:50 PM, Ricordisamoa wrote:

Il 02/07/2015 03:28, Legoktm ha scritto: > I noticed: "Yandex coming up soon!" under ContentTranslation. Are there > more details about what this means? https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T89844 I think

Thanks for the pointer. After some more digging, I found <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Thread:Talk:Content_translation/Specification/Yandex_backend>. So it appears that ContentTranslation will be contacting a third-party, closed source service? Are users going to be informed that this is the case? What data is being sent?

It appears[1] this has quietly gone ahead without any response here, which is disappointing. [1] https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Content_translation/Documentati…

As the user is isolated from the communication with Yandex , I don't see it as a huge problem. Using Qualtrics seems to be a much more serious problem, and nobody seems to care about that. Yandex is sort of similar to a "MP4 upload only" support, only without the patent concerns. Relying on it comes at the risk that the service stops, but the free content created is not infected. More likely, Yandex will start asking WMF for money, and WMF decides to pay because it is 'easier' than terminating using the service. Anyway, I've added it to https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Open_source -- John Vandenberg _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

-- (http://cscott.net)

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Luis Villa

11 Nov 11 Nov

3:07 a.m.

New subject: Yandex?

I haven't been directly involved in a while, but we were certainly not paying Yandex last time I looked at the arrangement. Appropriate legal steps were also taken to protect the licensing of the content, and appropriate technical steps to protect PII of editors, among other things. FWIW- Luis On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 1:12 PM, C. Scott Ananian <cananian(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

According to my listening of that Metrics meeting, it does seem like WMF is going to have to pay Yandex for using its service. But as you say, that doesn't infect the actual translation text, which goes into wikipedia and extends the free content available for everyone. --scott On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 3:31 PM, John Mark Vandenberg <jayvdb(a)gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 5:47 AM, Legoktm <legoktm.wikipedia(a)gmail.com>

wrote:

> On 07/02/2015 12:55 PM, Legoktm wrote: >> On 07/01/2015 06:50 PM, Ricordisamoa wrote: >>> Il 02/07/2015 03:28, Legoktm ha scritto: >>>> I noticed: "Yandex coming up soon!" under ContentTranslation. Are

there

>>>> more details about what this means? >>> >>> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T89844 I think >> >> Thanks for the pointer. After some more digging, I found >> <

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Thread:Talk:Content_translation/Specificatio…

. >> >> So it appears that ContentTranslation will be contacting a third-party, >> closed source service? Are users going to be informed that this is the >> case? What data is being sent? >> > > It appears[1] this has quietly gone ahead without any response here, > which is disappointing. > > [1] >

https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Content_translation/Documentati…

As the user is isolated from the communication with Yandex , I don't see it as a huge problem. Using Qualtrics seems to be a much more serious problem, and nobody seems to care about that. Yandex is sort of similar to a "MP4 upload only" support, only without the patent concerns. Relying on it comes at the risk that the service stops, but the free content created is not infected. More likely, Yandex will start asking WMF for money, and WMF decides to pay because it is 'easier' than terminating using the service. Anyway, I've added it to https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Open_source -- John Vandenberg _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

-- (http://cscott.net) _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

-- Luis Villa Sr. Director of Community Engagement Wikimedia Foundation *Working towards a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge.*

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Luis Villa

3:11 p.m.

New subject: Yandex?

Sorry, fell back into lawyer mode - specifically, PII is "personally identifiable information" - in our case, usually IP addresses. A badly designed system could send that to the translation system, but we didn't do that - Yandex does not have access to it, so they know nothing about the editors who use the system. Sorry I was unclear, and thanks to the person who sent me a personal note asking for clarification! Luis — Snt frm a dvice On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 7:07 PM, Luis Villa <lvilla(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

I haven't been directly involved in a while, but we were certainly not paying Yandex last time I looked at the arrangement. Appropriate legal steps were also taken to protect the licensing of the content, and appropriate technical steps to protect PII of editors, among other things. FWIW- Luis On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 1:12 PM, C. Scott Ananian <cananian(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

According to my listening of that Metrics meeting, it does seem like WMF is going to have to pay Yandex for using its service. But as you say, that doesn't infect the actual translation text, which goes into wikipedia and extends the free content available for everyone. --scott On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 3:31 PM, John Mark Vandenberg <jayvdb(a)gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 5:47 AM, Legoktm <legoktm.wikipedia(a)gmail.com>

wrote:

> On 07/02/2015 12:55 PM, Legoktm wrote: >> On 07/01/2015 06:50 PM, Ricordisamoa wrote: >>> Il 02/07/2015 03:28, Legoktm ha scritto: >>>> I noticed: "Yandex coming up soon!" under ContentTranslation. Are

there

>>>> more details about what this means? >>> >>> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T89844 I think >> >> Thanks for the pointer. After some more digging, I found >> <

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Thread:Talk:Content_translation/Specificatio…

. >> >> So it appears that ContentTranslation will be contacting a third-party, >> closed source service? Are users going to be informed that this is the >> case? What data is being sent? >> > > It appears[1] this has quietly gone ahead without any response here, > which is disappointing. > > [1] >

https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Content_translation/Documentati…

As the user is isolated from the communication with Yandex , I don't see it as a huge problem. Using Qualtrics seems to be a much more serious problem, and nobody seems to care about that. Yandex is sort of similar to a "MP4 upload only" support, only without the patent concerns. Relying on it comes at the risk that the service stops, but the free content created is not infected. More likely, Yandex will start asking WMF for money, and WMF decides to pay because it is 'easier' than terminating using the service. Anyway, I've added it to https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Open_source -- John Vandenberg _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

-- (http://cscott.net) _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

-- Luis Villa Sr. Director of Community Engagement Wikimedia Foundation *Working towards a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge.*

Reply

Marcin Cieslak

12 Nov 12 Nov

7:28 p.m.

New subject: Yandex?

On 2015-11-11, Luis Villa <lvilla(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

I haven't been directly involved in a while, but we were certainly not paying Yandex last time I looked at the arrangement. Appropriate legal steps were also taken to protect the licensing of the content, and appropriate technical steps to protect PII of editors, among other things.

It looks like the Yandex translation API is free for up to 1 million codepoints a day and 10 million a month. They also say the service is made available for personal, non-commercial use only. They terms and conditions also require software description, help pages and that pages which use the result of the translation display hyperlinked notice <a href="http://translate.yandex.ru/">Переведено сервисом «Яндекс.Переводчик»</a> (How) are we going to meet this requirement? Saper https://yandex.ru/legal/translate_api/ API ToS https://yandex.ru/legal/translate_termsofuse/ General Yandex Translate ToS

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Runa Bhattacharjee

13 Nov 13 Nov

3:51 a.m.

New subject: Yandex?

On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 12:58 AM, Marcin Cieslak <saper(a)saper.info> wrote:

(How) are we going to meet this requirement?

Hello, Specifics about this can be seen at: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Content_translation/Machine_Translation/Yand… Thanks Runa -- Language Engineering Manager Outreach and QA Coordinator Wikimedia Foundation

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Marcin Cieslak

15 Nov 15 Nov

1:09 a.m.

New subject: Yandex?

On 2015-11-13, Runa Bhattacharjee <rbhattacharjee(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

Specifics about this can be seen at: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Content_translation/Machine_Translation/Yand…

Thanks! This is very helpful. The link was already in the FAQ (although a bit buried in the text), I gave it a bit more exposure: https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Content_translation%2FDocumenta… Thanks a lot! Saper

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18 comments

13 participants

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participants (13)

C. Scott Ananian
Dan Garry
David Gerard
Federico Leva (Nemo)
Gergő Tisza
Grace Gellerman
Jackmcbarn
John Mark Vandenberg
Legoktm
Luis Villa
Marcin Cieslak
Ricordisamoa
Runa Bhattacharjee