Hi all,
Should we set up a demonstration wiki?
I'm thinking it might be good to have a wiki to experiment with different
things, such as software requirements. I have been tinkering on a Genealogy
extension, — it's super-basic and doesn't do much. (That's by design, really,
because I didn't want to build features such as citation management or image
handling that are not specific to genealogy.
It's probably not a place to put permanent information (although it could be
that too), but we could install MediaWiki at
https://tools.wmflabs.org/genealogy/wiki and start experimenting with things
there. Does that sound like a worthwhile thing?
My current aim is to get the Genealogy extension to support Wikidata. It'd be
good to have a place to demonstrate and figure out how this could work.
Thanks,
Sam.
There has been quite bit of discussion over the years about how the
Wikimedia movement could engage with those who have research interests
in family history or genealogy, and a centralised discussion page [1]
has been set up on Meta.
I am posting to ask whether there would be Wikimedian developers who
would be interested in joining an open source project to create a free
platform independent application called History Research Environment [2]
(‘HRE’) for the serious genealogist or historical researcher.
Considerable effort has been put into high-level planning over several
years, and we are now ready to start writing code.
While the proposed software is not currently an official Wikimedia
project, if there is enough interest we are open to it becoming
integrated or affiliated in some way. The plan is, in any event, that
the software should be interoperable with Wikidata to allow (subject to
the agreement of the Wikidata community) the exchange of a variety of
structured data including verified and fully sourced family trees.
I'd be happy to answer queries.
Michael Maggs
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_genealogy_project
[2] https://historyresearchenvironment.org
(please excuse cross-posting for greater visibility, as the
[wikimedia-genealogy] mailing list still has very few subscribers)
Re: My Comments on the question about 'moving ahead now'--
Mack Baxter;'s comments:
I am very new to this group, and this process, so I can only surmise what
all of you who have been here for 'years' are conquering to get to this
point in time. I have had a sincere interest in developing genealogy of my
family for years-- but I refuse to sign up to a web site and pay over $100
a year for something I only use a few hours a month! (Yet I am willing to
support the work of a noble, volunteer effort like this for many hours a
month-- giving my time freely..)
It seems to me, that we need to get started on developing this open
source process-- and that the Wiki organization must see the value and
importance of backing such a movement into the future. (However-- what do
I know about the financial and 'political' backing behind Wiki! :-) )
I am not a programmer, just a retired old man, that is eager to help where
I can.
So-- let's put some harnesses on, and let's get to work!
Eagerly,
Mack Baxter
Upstate New York. (Wine Country)
Irving "MACK" Baxter "Time Indefinite
he has put
8971 Pardee Hollow Road in the hearts of
men..."
Wayland, NY 14572
Ecclesiastes 3:11
* Home Ph*. 585-*534-9852 Text-* G-Voice # --
*585**-204-0504*
On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 8:00 AM, <
wikimedia-genealogy-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
> Send Wikimedia-genealogy mailing list submissions to
> wikimedia-genealogy(a)lists.wikimedia.org
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>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Wikimedia genealogy and historical research software - a
> proposal for HRE (Dan Koehl)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 01:11:16 +0200
> From: Dan Koehl <dan.koehl(a)gmail.com>
> To: "Discussion about the Wikimedia genealogy project."
> <wikimedia-genealogy(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> Cc: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>, John
> Lubbock <wikimediauk-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-genealogy] Wikimedia genealogy and historical
> research software - a proposal for HRE
> Message-ID:
> <CACKb8Daa_nr8qht=gS8OQuGZMtqqubrwRYxTiYvaQdoG51DhNg@mail.
> gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Dear Michael, thanks again for your question and request. I hope that more
> members of this list will share their thoughts about this.
> I guess no one on the list were so ready for this kind of question, we have
> sort of moved slowly towards a moment when we think we are so many that we
> can start to look into next step, so far we were just discussing and
> discussing.
>
> Your question is interesting relevant, and should have had a much better
> feedback, than those weeks without even an answer.
>
> Lets bring your request a further step, so we can soon move it to the meta
> pages, and discuss openly.
>
> I have to admit, I was not totally sure about your question, and maybe this
> goes for others, would you mind tell us more about your plans with this and
> anything more you want to share. It sounds like a tool, connected to
> Wikidata, which already sounds very good for a Wikimedia genealogy tool.
> you may actually turn up with your request in the perfect moment, where
> technical issues needs to be discussed, we were simply not there, but I
> guess that the group members will just consider each and every step towards
> the vision of a wikimedia genealogy website as positive, why your question
> may actually push us all into next step..
>
> Please fill us in a bit more, and keep in mind, that most users on the list
> are not programmers, why technical details, may be needed to be presented
> in an easy way to understand.
>
> I will be excited to get some input from you all on this list, as well as
> weather we need to wait more, or should go to next step, and start to creat
> the user group, in order to contact the wikimedia for further questions to
> move on with the project.
>
> Dan Koehl
>
>
>
> 2017-05-24 16:58 GMT+02:00 Michael Maggs <Michael(a)maggs.name>:
>
> > There has been quite bit of discussion over the years about how the
> > Wikimedia movement could engage with those who have research interests in
> > family history or genealogy, and a centralised discussion page [1] has
> been
> > set up on Meta.
> >
> > I am posting to ask whether there would be Wikimedian developers who
> would
> > be interested in joining an open source project to create a free platform
> > independent application called History Research Environment [2] (‘HRE’)
> for
> > the serious genealogist or historical researcher. Considerable effort
> has
> > been put into high-level planning over several years, and we are now
> ready
> > to start writing code.
> >
> > While the proposed software is not currently an official Wikimedia
> > project, if there is enough interest we are open to it becoming
> integrated
> > or affiliated in some way. The plan is, in any event, that the software
> > should be interoperable with Wikidata to allow (subject to the agreement
> of
> > the Wikidata community) the exchange of a variety of structured data
> > including verified and fully sourced family trees.
> >
> > I'd be happy to answer queries.
> >
> > Michael Maggs
> >
> >
> > [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_genealogy_project
> >
> > [2] https://historyresearchenvironment.org
> >
> > (please excuse cross-posting for greater visibility, as the
> > [wikimedia-genealogy] mailing list still has very few subscribers)
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-genealogy mailing list
> > Wikimedia-genealogy(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-genealogy
> >
>
>
>
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Kontor/Office: Ljusterö Information
> Box 75, 184 03 Ljusterö
> Telefon: 11.00-17.00: 08-542 424 01
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Dan Koehl, Kårbodavägen 39, 184 97 Ljusterö, Sweden.
> Mobil telefon 1 (Comviq): 0767 15 45 70
> Mobil telefon 2 (Telia): 0739 17 17 89
> Skype: DanKoehl ICQ: 40467 87
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 8:00 AM, <
wikimedia-genealogy-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
> Robin Lamacraft
if you could send me her (Robin Lamacraft) 'e' mail address *I could
check on her progress.'*
Thanks, Mack
Irving "MACK" Baxter "Time Indefinite
he has put
8971 Pardee Hollow Road in the hearts of
men..."
Wayland, NY 14572
Ecclesiastes 3:11
* Home Ph*. 585-*534-9852 Text-* G-Voice # --
*585**-204-0504*
Hi Michael,
I am interested in helping where I can..
My PLUS's:
I am retired, and I am interested in Ancestry for my Family Tree and
connecting with others from my families names: Baxter, Herman, Lewellyn,
(Single first L ) and Ladeau.
I am good with 'e' mails, and pretty good with keyboard typing.
I have a fair internet speed for out in the country-- but no cable
runs by my house-- so my connection is not as fast as yours, I am sure! :-)
I have 2 sons who are really good with computers-- tho they live an
hour away.
I am learning to work with DropBox more and more..
I have an Evernote account-- if that helps.
My negatives:
I am 76 years old, and I am NOT a programmer.
Tho I am capable of learning, if you have classes on line, planned.
Let me know if I can be of some help-- and WHEN are you going to be moving
forward?
Sincerely,
Mack Baxter
Irving "MACK" Baxter "Time Indefinite
he has put
8971 Pardee Hollow Road in the hearts of
men..."
Wayland, NY 14572
Ecclesiastes 3:11
* Home Ph*. 585-*534-9852 Text-* G-Voice # --
*585**-204-0504*
On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 8:00 AM, <
wikimedia-genealogy-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
> Send Wikimedia-genealogy mailing list submissions to
> wikimedia-genealogy(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-genealogy
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> wikimedia-genealogy-request(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> wikimedia-genealogy-owner(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Wikimedia-genealogy digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Wikimedia genealogy and historical research software - a
> proposal for HRE (Michael Maggs)
> 2. Re: Wikimedia genealogy and historical research software - a
> proposal for HRE (Michael Smith)
> 3. Re: Wikimedia genealogy and historical research software - a
> proposal for HRE (Michael Maggs)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 15:58:34 +0100
> From: Michael Maggs <Michael(a)maggs.name>
> To: "Discussion about the Wikimedia genealogy project."
> <wikimedia-genealogy(a)lists.wikimedia.org>, Wikimedia Mailing List
> <wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> Cc: John Lubbock <wikimediauk-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-genealogy] Wikimedia genealogy and historical
> research software - a proposal for HRE
> Message-ID: <59259F9A.9080506(a)maggs.name>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> There has been quite bit of discussion over the years about how the
> Wikimedia movement could engage with those who have research interests
> in family history or genealogy, and a centralised discussion page [1]
> has been set up on Meta.
>
> I am posting to ask whether there would be Wikimedian developers who
> would be interested in joining an open source project to create a free
> platform independent application called History Research Environment [2]
> (‘HRE’) for the serious genealogist or historical researcher.
> Considerable effort has been put into high-level planning over several
> years, and we are now ready to start writing code.
>
> While the proposed software is not currently an official Wikimedia
> project, if there is enough interest we are open to it becoming
> integrated or affiliated in some way. The plan is, in any event, that
> the software should be interoperable with Wikidata to allow (subject to
> the agreement of the Wikidata community) the exchange of a variety of
> structured data including verified and fully sourced family trees.
>
> I'd be happy to answer queries.
>
> Michael Maggs
>
>
> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_genealogy_project
>
> [2] https://historyresearchenvironment.org
>
> (please excuse cross-posting for greater visibility, as the
> [wikimedia-genealogy] mailing list still has very few subscribers)
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 12:20:36 -0500
> From: Michael Smith <michaelksmith99(a)gmail.com>
> To: "Discussion about the Wikimedia genealogy project."
> <wikimedia-genealogy(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-genealogy] Wikimedia genealogy and historical
> research software - a proposal for HRE
> Message-ID:
> <CAAoF4A+=cA++hBSmXyqstZeO4xO0T=6UFA+
> 9jegVhq8mUwn9MA(a)mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> As it happens, both my wife and I were members of Bob Velke's original
> development team for TMG in one of Dick Eastman's back rooms at CompuServe
> in the early '90s. (That's how we first met, in fact.) If this project is
> meant to function as a full-dress desktop application for recording
> genealogical research -- perhaps among other, more general types of
> historical research -- I would be very interested. I've just spent some
> time browsing through the info at the website you linked to and I've
> already begun making a list of comments and points to consider.
>
> I've been doing this stuff since the early '60s, before I even did my first
> history degree, so all my original family research was
> pencil-and-clipboard. I still do "regular" history research, mostly of the
> local history variety -- but, to be honest, I've never needed software for
> that. Still just a pencil and clipboard, with the addition of a digital
> camera a decade ago.
>
> Michael K. Smith
>
> On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 9:58 AM, Michael Maggs <Michael(a)maggs.name> wrote:
>
> > There has been quite bit of discussion over the years about how the
> > Wikimedia movement could engage with those who have research interests in
> > family history or genealogy, and a centralised discussion page [1] has
> been
> > set up on Meta.
> >
> > I am posting to ask whether there would be Wikimedian developers who
> would
> > be interested in joining an open source project to create a free platform
> > independent application called History Research Environment [2] (‘HRE’)
> for
> > the serious genealogist or historical researcher. Considerable effort
> has
> > been put into high-level planning over several years, and we are now
> ready
> > to start writing code.
> >
> > While the proposed software is not currently an official Wikimedia
> > project, if there is enough interest we are open to it becoming
> integrated
> > or affiliated in some way. The plan is, in any event, that the software
> > should be interoperable with Wikidata to allow (subject to the agreement
> of
> > the Wikidata community) the exchange of a variety of structured data
> > including verified and fully sourced family trees.
> >
> > I'd be happy to answer queries.
> >
> > Michael Maggs
> >
> >
> > [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_genealogy_project
> >
> > [2] https://historyresearchenvironment.org
> >
> > (please excuse cross-posting for greater visibility, as the
> > [wikimedia-genealogy] mailing list still has very few subscribers)
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-genealogy mailing list
> > Wikimedia-genealogy(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-genealogy
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services
> NEW: michaelksmith99(a)gmail.com <mksmith1(a)bellsouth.net>
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Hi John
HRE is not simply a front-end to an online database, but is a
fully-featured open source desktop research application which
incorporates its own database. The primary use is genealogy, and to that
end it's designed to take over and extend the features of the most
capable but unfortunately no-longer-supported commercial program The
Master Genealogist (TMG). However, the principles behind the study of
genealogy are equally applicable to a wide range of historical fields.
Historians are very poorly served by the commercial software market, and
frequently find themselves locked into expensive or inflexible academic
or cultural sector packages.
We have identified the following high-level principles applicable to
generic historical research software:
* The data that needs to be stored for history research has a
largely common structure usually falling into one of two broad types:
1. a description of something, or
2. how that thing relates to other things (for example via a
person, date, time or location)
* A researcher may want to view and analyse the same data from a
variety of different perspectives
* Rules can help to validate the veracity of an assertion of a
relationship
* High quality research requires an analysis of the evidential base
for any assertions that are made, and the ability to be able to
report on that analysis.
Traditionally, historians have divided their research into targeted
areas such as genealogy, anthropology, ecology, archaeology, military
history and so on. The fundamental data and analysis requirements are
the same, and can be dealt with in software in a common way even if the
things being measured and the rules for validation may differ.
By embracing these ideas the History Research Environment project aims
to create a research platform of wide historical and cultural utility.
We would like to encourage Wikimedians to get involved, especially in
coding, with a view to interoperability and/or integration with the
Wikimedia sites.
More details can be found by following the links from here:
https://historyresearchenvironment.org/articles/
Michael
(User:MichaelMaggs on Commons)
GitHub:
https://github.com/History-Research-Environment/HRE--History-Research-Envir…
> John Levin <mailto:anterotesis@gmail.com>
> 25 May 2017 at 10:13 am
>
>
> Ah, sorry, missed the screenshots page:
> https://historyresearchenvironment.org/screens
>
> John
>
> John Levin <mailto:anterotesis@gmail.com>
> 25 May 2017 at 10:10 am
> As a PhD student & hstorian, this looks like a really useful idea.
>
> I'm not entirely clear how it would work: is it a GUI for are there
> any screen mock-ups or such like? Is it a sort of front end for
> databases like Wikidata?
>
> And the strapline on the site "Towards a history of almost anything"
> is kinda scary. That's applying a single tool to a huge number of
> things. Is history that similar to genealogy, and then to biology as
> well?
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
> Michael Maggseatured generalogy and history reserach
> <mailto:Michael@maggs.name>
> 24 May 2017 at 3:58 pm
> There has been quite bit of discussion over the years about how the
> Wikimedia movement could engage with those who have research interests
> in family history or genealogy, and a centralised discussion page [1]
> has been set up on Meta.
>
> I am posting to ask whether there would be Wikimedian developers who
> would be interested in joining an open source project to create a free
> platform independent application called History Research Environment
> [2] (‘HRE’) for the serious genealogist or historical researcher.
> Considerable effort has been put into high-level planning over several
> years, and we are now ready to start writing code.
>
> While the proposed software is not currently an official Wikimedia
> project, if there is enough interest we are open to it becoming
> integrated or affiliated in some way. The plan is, in any event, that
> the software should be interoperable with Wikidata to allow (subject
> to the agreement of the Wikidata community) the exchange of a variety
> of structured data including verified and fully sourced family trees.
>
> I'd be happy to answer queries.
>
> Michael Maggs
>
>
> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_genealogy_project
>
> [2] https://historyresearchenvironment.org
>
> (please excuse cross-posting for greater visibility, as the
> [wikimedia-genealogy] mailing list still has very few subscribers)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-genealogy mailing list
> Wikimedia-genealogy(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-genealogy
@Robert Shaw:
There are actually quite a large number of data interchange standards in
addition to GEDCOM, which has been effectively abandoned at version 5.5
since 1996[1]. (FamilySearch's GEDCOM X[2] may fairly be assumed to be
the LDS's current model, retaining the nuclear family/individual
approach.) GeneWeb's GW format[3] has some support as an interchange,
for example Gramps[4] can both import and export .gw. Gramps itself has
a more-widely supported Gramps XML[5]. There are an almost uncountable
number of GEDCOM extensions, and similarly there is a continuum of
personal data standards which are suitable or extensible for purpose,
e.g. vCard[6] and iCalendar[7].
Most standards commonly used for genealogy focus on nuclear family
units. Another approach is relationships, and a third is event-driven,
though all standards involve at least some support for all three. Here
are a couple of questions for genealogy data, though:
* Locations change name (and nationality) over time - should a genealogy
standard take this into account?
* Parentage is changing as we learn more about genetics; a child was
born recently with genetic material from three individuals.[8] How
should this be represented?
* In a similar vein, between 1 and 2 percent of humans are neither male
nor female by traditional measures[9]. (That is roughly 3x the number of
people who have AB- blood type, to give you a comparison. It is also
more than the number of genetically redheaded people.) How should this
be represented?
* Legal issues are also complexifying: there are now many children in
the USA, Canada, and elsewhere who list multiple parents on their birth
certificates[10], and sometimes non-traditional rôles such as birth
mother or donor father. Again, how should these be recorded?
> (What's the data product of Wikipedia, for instance?)
Well, taking Wikipedia as an example, there are four primary data products:
* The human/machine readable html interface
* The two machine-oriented api interfaces
* The various formats of database dumps
* The definable collection .pdf output.
In addition there are a range of mostly statistical products which are
more meta than content. But mostly it is a library of hyperlinked
articles about everything.
Find-a-grave is a library of databases of headstones, with optional
hyperlinking and text articles and photographs. Ancestry.com is indexes
to repositories of documents and GEDCOMs. And so on. Genealogy is a
multi-disciplinary effort, and I wonder what areas of it we would be
interested in creating and curating: crowd-sourcing transcriptions of
Census documents may be one idea, but so is developing a public gene
heritage database hosted on Wikidata with DIY mail-in swab kits.
@Sam Wilson: Actually, your arguments about the UNIX way are one of my
arguments against Mediawiki for genealogy - MW handles text reasonably
well, but not structured data. For that matter, instant commons is an
accretion to allow something which MW does not do well - share objects
across instances.
The primary benefit of instant commons is offloading the cost of
curating the media files, but in exchange for giving a different project
(with different goals and missions) control over what media files you
may have. This may work well enough for a genealogy project, but it also
shows a point at which a genealogy project cannot 'do one thing and do
it well.' The concept of involving Wikisource for transcriptions,
Commons for source documents, Wikidata for many elements, and then a
separate MW instance for the presentation layer sounds great, but I
expect it would be pretty brittle and fragile in practice.
@Michael Smith: there are reasons to have hidden/private individuals:
living persons and the recently deceased being two of the most obvious.
That of course does not defend (nor condemn) private family trees. One
thing done by Ancestry.com is to use private trees as a source of
'hints', and to improve the accuracy of hints for both public and
private trees - e.g. if a private individual is linked to a given social
security number, it is of greater likelihood that an individual in a
public tree with multiple close correlations has the same social
security number.
Personally I would like to build a series of api which can be knit
together - one for people data, one for graves/cemeteries, one for media
assets, one for places, one for events... and likely others. These could
be MW extension, or maybe Slim[10], but the point being to allow maximum
flexibility for data CRUD, and allow many options for presentation -
including but not limited to Mediawiki.
[1] https://familysearch.org/developers/docs/gedcom/gedcom55.pdf
[2] https://github.com/FamilySearch/gedcomx
[3] https://geneweb.tuxfamily.org/wiki/GWformat
[4] https://github.com/gramps-project/gramps
[5] https://gramps-project.org/xml/
[6] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6350
[7] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5545
[8]
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/28/health/birth-of-3-parent-baby-a-success-…
[9] http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/nin.12184/full
[10]
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/11/baby-with-3-parents-birth-certific…
[11] https://www.slimframework.com/ (https://github.com/slimphp/Slim)
I understand the interest in creating a collaborative genealogical site.
The question I have is what kind of data standard would be supported?
GEDCOM is widely supported, but is biased toward a specific religious
viewpoint of what a family *is*, and how relationships can be described.
Are people aware of software like WebTrees[1], which allows many people
to work on shared family trees? I am not sure how scalable it would be
for a single world family tree. I have been running an instance of it
for a few years now, and it seems reasonably stable, but there are some
issues with the transportability of media assets (scans of documents,
photos, etc.) requiring manual backup.
What other kinds of software and data have been used by people in the
project? What kind of data product does the project envision?
Amgine
[1] https://www.webtrees.net/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webtrees
Familypedia's form is fairly simple. See
http://familypedia.wikia.com/wiki/Form:Person
Names, dates, places, sources, and notes all have labelled fields (boxes),
and you can tab from one to the next or use scroll bars to jump.
Data for first and second marriages and children from first marriage - for
higher-number marriage and children data, you need ordinary wiki-editing
after the individual's page is created with the form.
Siblings can be entered manually but can later appear automatically once one
of the parents has a separate page showing them as children.
Robin F. Patterson, Plimmerton, Porirua City, New Zealand
http://familypedia.wikia.com/wiki/User:Robin_Patterson
----- Original Message -----
> 1. Looking for a simple Family Tree form. (Irving M. Baxter)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 07:15:50 -0400
> From: "Irving M. Baxter" <imackbaxter(a)gmail.com>
> To: Wikimedia-genealogy(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: [Wikimedia-genealogy] Looking for a simple Family Tree form.
> Message-ID:
> <CANL4zWRC3O4iFBPO7yRpeQ3F7Ae5RmGWc=FFdJ5c_XP0wSCSaQ(a)mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi! Thus is my first post... I am looking for a simple (?) On line form
> that helps me post my parents, grandparents, +, DATES...DoB, DoD,
> marriage,
> siblings. Is that available now, here ? Where, how?
> IrvingB.
>