"Jim Schuler" wrote
> This certainly needs more of an explanation, "snide remarks about Board
> members given no second chance".
Does it? We have seen Jimbo attacked (quite often, and recently). We saw Geoffrey Kohs take aim at Angela, a recently-departed Board member. These things are in the list archives, posted on the Web. I really don't know why we tolerate use of this list for people to let off steam. (Well, I do, of course. There is a reason to have steam let off in a controlled manner. But it undermines the list's status as a serious forum.)
I agree with Fred - it's a talking shop.
Charles
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"Jim Schuler" wrote
> If your idea of moderation is biting sarcasm and a dismissive attitude I'm
> afraid you do not put forth a good image of the Arbcomm.
Sean is a good Arbitrator: don't get that wrong.
Charles
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Alphax wrote
>Generally this list is home to not sexism but general stupidity. What
will it take before people feel safe enough to post here?
How about:
- civility code enforced
- trolls given no second chance
- snide remarks about Board members given no second chance
- profanity barred.
Just for a start. We all have our little list.
Charles
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Stan Shebs wrote
> It's an interesting phenomenon for the
> sociologists - if you look at the subscriber list, you'll see that there
> are plenty of male lurkers, but of course they don't give their reasons
> for not speaking up. Once in a great while I've met one of these male
> lurkers in person, and a couple (almost shamefacedly) admitted to
> feeling intimidated by the risks of public posting. In any case, this is
> not unique to WP mailing lists, and as far as I know it's never been
> satisfactorily resolved for public lists - having a women-only or
> approved-members-only list is the usual tactic, but then it's not really
> a public list anymore. Any other ideas that have been tried?
Well, I'd certainly support using this multiply-unfortunate thread to do something about the etiquette and respect level.
But on the substantive, on-topic point, perhaps we do need to talk over having a dedicated email list for 'systemic bias', as a whole. It's a hazardous idea - anyone can think of drawbacks.
Charles
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Puppy wrote
> As
> Larry Pieniazek pointed out, we cannot change the world - but we can
> change how we respond to sexism in our little sphere of influence, which
> includes all things wp - wp itself, this mailing list, and yes irc. We
> have no control over irc, of course, yet if there is concerted response
> towards any sexism, it should have an effect.
I have never used IRC; the logs I have seen are not encouraging, either.
Charles
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Alphax wrote
> Do you think I'm proud of what I said? Do you think I actually meant it?
> Do you think that continuing to attack me would have helped the
> situation? Do you think that there was any apology I could have give
> that wouldn't have been just brushed off as insincere?
Do you think you could just shut up, until 2007?
Charles
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> It is a complex situation, and I think a little off topic. I don't know
> if there is anything here which will illuminate the gender bias and/or
> gender gap which we have on Wikipedia, or give insight as to how to
> approach better balance. Does any of this cause women to value
> themselves less? Do they do "cleanup" because they're used to it?
Do they, in fact, do more than their share of the "cleanup" here? The gender
roles around here might not be what we expect.
> Do they shy away from ArbCom or B'crat because they are
> non-confrontational? due to gender differences, or societal expectations
> (Pavlovian training)?
Is the gender ratio of b'crats or arbitrarors more male-biased than the gender
ratio of sysops? Of course it's not easy to determine gender from username, but
from a casual inspection of the lists, there don't seem to be that many female
sysops to begin with. If that's right, there's a glass ceiling at or before RfA
anyway.
Is the gender ratio of sysops different from the gender ratio of all RfA
candidates? Should be easy to do a casual inspection at least.
Exercise for the reader.
Is the gender ratio of RfA candidates different than the ratio of regulars?
Regulars versus casual users? Are female administrators more
non-confrontational? Don't know.
Exercise for the masochistic reader.
> The email which started this thread talked about
> "women's subjects" such as blow dryers and curling irons, and that was
> written by a female, yes? That's horrifying to me.
Maybe because chihuahuas hardly have any hair at all?
Dan
Sean Barrett wrote
> Damned right I pointed out his malicious needling. Guettarda began
> attacking Alphax only after Alphax had stopped his admittedly hostile
> remarks, saying "I'm putting myself on moderation."
Oh, come on. Email is not a synchronous medium at the best of times. We are all at the mercy of ISPs and their servers. Besides, telling Alphax to put his head in a bucket 100 times, and take it out 99, is treating him too kind.
Charles
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Puppy wrote
> Would our "welcoming attitude" to women and "being on the lookout for
> bad behavior and mitigating its effects" include chastising men who make
> overtly sexist and insulting remarks? Alphax made such remarks, and thus
> far two people have spoken up - Mindspillage, a female; and Guettarda.
I'll speak up, though I said something indirect earlier. I have no idea what Alphax was thinking he was doing, but I hope in future he'll do it in another forum, or, better, not at all. (If people don't pile on, it can be because 'don't feed the trolls' is sound advice.)
>There is no longer any question
> of whether there is gender bias on WP: it has been demonstrated here.
Don't assume this is representative of Wikipedia.
> Sean actually attacked Guettarda for calling bigotry what it is
I heartily disapproved of that, (a) because it was wrong, and (b) because it prolonged the discussion of inappropriate comments. By the way, all these posts are very public.
Charles
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I hope that it does not come to where contributors to this list feel the
need for a separate list. I write this with some trepidation, but I beleive
there are differences in all of us. Those differences are things to
celebrate, and not reasons to be separate. They are instead, merely reasons
to try to see things from the perspective of others. We cannot make the
world a pace where all outcomes are equal. We cannot even make the world a
place where all opportunities are exactly equal. What we can, and should do,
is make this list a place where all voices get a reasonable hearing, and
identify things that can be worked on. That is all we can do on this list
and all we should do.