Alphax writes to me:
> At present, there is *no* neutral way to represent dates.
> Let's just call a spade a spade and not try to make
> something sound like something it's not.
You're very confused. I am not making any such claim.
Alphax writes:
> If you feel you are being forced to use Christian
terminology,
> why use the Christian date system at all? CE is still
based
> (albeit incorrectly) on the birthdate of one Jesus of
Nazareth.
Stop being disingenous. We all agree that the numeric
dating system currently in use has to be the one that is
used in all articles. It is just the Jesus-worshipping
honorifics (BC/AD) that some of us object to. The growing
consensus in the academic community is to use
religion-neutral terms such as BCE/CE.
Alphax, you know this, as we have explained this many times
to you. So please do not pretend that you are still
unaware of this.
I had written:
>> I already have put up with enough abuse today, as
several
>> of my fellow faculty and staff came - as well as many
>> students - in with T-shirts advertising "Jesus Day" at a
>> public school. It had a motto that said that only
through
>> Jesus will anyone find God, and that all others are
doomed
>> to be without God (i.e. damned to Hell.) Apparently
being
>> in the vast majority is not enough for some right-wing
>> Evangelical Protestant Christians. They have to push
their
>> threats of damnation via religious proselytizing in
public
>> arenas?!
Alphax replies:
> e-van-gel-i-cal adj., of the Gospel noun, one who is
committed to
> the Gospel of Jesus Christ; the only gospel of salvation;
by grace,
> through faith, under the authority of the Bible,
empowered by
> the Holy Spirit, to the Glory of God. You live in the US?
Again, stop pretending that all members of this list are
illiterate. We understand fully how Protestant Chrisitan
fundamentalists define this term.
> You have heard of Freedom of Religion?
Yes, and please stop making such bizarre implications. No
one is preventing Christians (or Muslims or Jews) from
having their own theology, from having their own beliefs,
from worshipping in their own houses of worship, or from
following their own religious practices.
Freedom of religion, however, prevents people from one
religion from harassing people from another religion. US
law prohibits people from harassing others with this kind
of religious proselytization. (In fact, I already have
been notified that if I choose to bring a case against the
people I referred to, I will almost certainly win. I am
trying to find a non-legal way to do deal with them. They
do think that all Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Hindus,
Buddhists, and agnostics are damned to hell, and they are
making difficult to work where I am an employee.)
You seem to imagine that "Freedom of religion" actually
means "Freedom for religious fundamentalists to create a
hostile workplace environment", and that "Non
fundamentalists have no rights at all." You worldview is
the same as that of religious dictators. You also seem
ignorant (in the literal sense of the term) of US law.
> We live in a society that has seen the marginalisation,
> desecration and humilitation of Jesus Christ.
Are you joking, or trying to start a holy war against all
non-fundamentalist Christians? It is enraged
fundamentalists like you who start inquisitions, crusades
and jihads. I hope other Wiki-En editors are keeping a
close eye on your submissions.
Robert
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MacGyverMagic/Mgm writes:
> Sure, not everyone has the Christian religion, but aren't
the terms BC and AD
> most commonly used amonst archeologists and historians?
We shouldn't give up
> on an accurate description of the most used terminology
in favour of neutrality
> if the world isn't neutral about it itself.
Discussing points pro- and con- on this issue should be
discussed on the appropriate project page.
However, I do find it revealing that you seem to be saying
that we should not follow NPOV "if the world isn't neutral
about itself." That proves Steve's point. Many people
here are essentially admitting that they will simply not
follow our NPOV policy if it upsets some of their core
beliefs, or standard conventions.
JayJG writes:
> A rather interesting parallel to the accusations that
have sometimes filled this list
> claiming that people are anti-Semitic, don't you think?
I don't quite understand why you say this, since you have
in effect agreed with this point in a great many cases. I
have watched with interest as you have worked with many
others here - including me - against a spate of neo-Nazi
biased statements and articles. I'm quite glad that you
recognize the problem and often so often and so hard work
to counter it!
Robert (RK)
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Ed writes:
> This whole thing smacks of an "anti-religious agenda",
> rather than any sincere effort towards neutrality.
> When we couldn't agree on British vs. American spelling,
> we chose this solution:...
>
>...Ever hear of live and let live? Sheesh!
I am rather disturbed by the rather paranoid claims filling
this list that people are anti-Christian, and persectuing
Christians, and discriminating against Christians, etc.
These angry accusations are false, hurtful, and simply
disingenuous. I can't believe that anyone seriously
believes that following NPOV and referring to dates in a
neutral way is meant as an evil plot against that poor and
few in number minority, the Christians....
It seems to me, rather, that some people are just venting
anger, as they refuse to let others "live and let live".
Frankly, for the majority of people on this planet who do
not worship Jesus as their God, messiah and saviour, it
makes no sense to force them to use religious Christian
terminology. It is those who ask for a "live and let live
policy" who are being attacked, not the Christians.
I already have put up with enough abuse today, as several
of my fellow faculty and staff came - as well as many
students - in with T-shirts advertising "Jesus Day" at a
public school. It had a motto that said that only through
Jesus will anyone find God, and that all others are doomed
to be without God (i.e. damned to Hell.) Apparently being
in the vast majority is not enough for some right-wing
Evangelical Protestant Christians. They have to push their
threats of damnation via religious proselytizing in public
arenas?!
I'm one step away from filing a complaint, as this clearly
constitues a hostile workplace environment. And what's
next? Jihad T-shirts from Islamists demanding that all
Americans accept Allah and the Quran? Atheist t-shirts
from Communists demanding that all Americans accept Marx
and Engels? That behaviour is just great...if you hate
your neighbor and want to start a religious war.
Let's stop pretending we have NPOV and that we tolerate our
fellow man, and let's start acting that way in practice.
Robert (RK)
I�m astounded by people who want to "know" the universe when it�s hard enough to find your way around Chinatown. - Woody Allen
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--- Tony Sidaway <minorityreport(a)bluebottle.com>
wrote:
> Rick said:
> >
> > --- Tony Sidaway <minorityreport(a)bluebottle.com>
> > wrote:
> >> Non-notability has been rejected as a criterion
> for
> >> deletion.
> >
> > By some. There is no consensus on this issue.
>
>
> Ergo, it has been rejected. That's how we make (or
> don't make) policy on
> Wikipedia.
Um, no, there is no consensus either way.
RickK
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I'm thinking out loud, and I am not making any specific proposal or
coming to any particular conclusion.
I haven't been following the recent school brouhaha, but it seems to me
there's an aspect to the school issue that people have been tapdancing
around.
In addition to the general encyclopedias, there are a host of
single-volume encyclopedias on limited topics. The Encyclopedia of
Chicago. The Encyclopedia of Buddhism. Encyclopedia of Western Railroad
History. The American Horticultural Society A to Z Encyclopedia of
Garden Plants. The New International Encyclopedia of Bible
Difficulties. Donna Kooler's Encyclopedia of Crochet. The New
Encyclopedia of Modern Bodybuilding. The Star Wars Encyclopedia. The
Comic Book Encyclopedia.
My guess is that I would personally accept 99% of this material as
being "encyclopedic," even if much of it is on material I personally
have little interest in. Why? Because to me, encyclopedic does not mean
"of personal interest to me." It means "having _some_ reasonable level
of thoroughness, accuracy, and scholarship." An article _needs_ to have
these things if it is to serve the reader.
But Wikipedia is an all-volunteer contribution. That means that it also
needs to serve contributors. But there has to be some kind of balance.
A vanity page is an obvious example of a page that is out of balance.
It serves _primarily_ the ego of the contributor.
Now, what happens when someone wants to contribute to Wikipedia, but
doesn't really have the skill set to do so?
I suspect that a lot of the arguments about certain classes of article
are really related to age-specific interest, and to age-related levels
of skill and maturity. I sometimes fancy I hear in these debates the
voices older siblings putting younger ones in their place. Articles
about Pokemon are baby stuff--wait until you grow up and can write
articles about _serious_ things like Harry Potter. Harry Potter
articles are cruft--they're not _important,_ like Hilary Duff, or
Britney Spears, or Justin Timberlake.
I sometimes fancy that when people say "let _articles_ undergo organic
growth," which is nonsense because article do not grow, people write
them, what they are really saying is "don't discourage young
_contributors_" (who certainly will undergo organic growth).
The problem with high schools has little to do with notability. It is
that the people most likely to be interested in writing articles about
them are people of high-school age, who _for the most part_ tend not to
have the skills to write very good encyclopedia articles. These
articles tend to be out of balance: they mostly serve the needs of the
contributors, rather than the needs of readers.
Now if, in fact, we actually have a crowd of serious worker bees who
really will swarm around all the little irritating particles of school
substubs and deposit the nacre of scholarship on them until they become
sparkling crystals :-) then there's probably no harm in them...
--
Daniel P. B. Smith, dpbsmith(a)verizon.net
"Elinor Goulding Smith's Great Big Messy Book" is now back in print!
Sample chapter at http://world.std.com/~dpbsmith/messy.html
Buy it at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1403314063/
--- David Gerard <fun(a)thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
> Rick (giantsrick13(a)yahoo.com) [050520 07:46]:
> > --- David Gerard <fun(a)thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
>
> > > Far too often I see it used to mean "it must not
> be
> > > important because I've
> > > never heard of it."
>
> > Far too often I see this straw man argument used
> to
> > villify people with good intentions. I've seen
> far
> > too many times, "Keep it, it must be notable, I've
> > heard of it." Isn't that just the other side of
> the
> > same coin?
>
>
> Only insofar as notability is itself a deletion
> reason per policy, which it
> isn't. (Things relating to it certainly are.)
This is your opinion, not consensus.
RickK
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--- Tony Sidaway <minorityreport(a)bluebottle.com>
wrote:
> Non-notability has been rejected as a criterion for
> deletion.
By some. There is no consensus on this issue.
RickK
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--- Tony Sidaway <minorityreport(a)bluebottle.com>
wrote:
> "Wikipedia is not a collection of ideas, concepts,
> institutions and places
> I haven't heard of or don't think are significant",
> perhaps? :)
Yet again a straw man and an un-Wiki attack on the
motives of VfD nominators.
RickK
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I have reported this guy to abuse(a)fuse.net as a
spammer.
RickK
--- David 'DJ' Hedley <spyders(a)btinternet.com> wrote:
> I trust this was wrongly authorised? :p
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <bbarron(a)fuse.net>
> To: <wikien-l(a)Wikipedia.org>
> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 9:04 PM
> Subject: [WikiEN-l] (no subject)
>
>
> > would like to help as much as possible
> >
> > Hi i am Pastor Rev.Bill Barron and i am running
> for the city of cincinnati
> council. i am a goodman who wants to bring peace
> and harmony to are city.i
> have help campaign for others an i am very hands
> on,and yes more
> jobs.volunteers&donations are in need
> call(513)621-2349.campaign hats&bumper
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> Barron for city council
> 609 walnut st.suite#1016 cincinnati,ohio
> 45202.seriously i am looking for
> business parters to make our own money."only ask if
> you have money to
> invest". "new" web site. www.revbillbarron.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l(a)Wikipedia.org
> >
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> WikiEN-l(a)Wikipedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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My company wants to use MediaWiki for internal documentation. They
would like to separate how projects are physically stored in the
MediaWiki structure.
For example instead of all files being listed under the root
structure, can I create a new project folder for each project and have
files be placed in their respective projects?
Is this possible?
--
Chris McIntosh