Charlie wrote her thesis on how you could integrate Wikidata in Wikipedia, specifically on Infoboxes, so that might be worth a look when it comes to this topic, too. So there is research from the UX perspective and how it'd be able to edit etc available. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Facilitating_the_use_of_Wikidata_in… On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 1:44 PM, Yuri Astrakhan <yastrakhan(a)wikimedia.org> wrote: -- Lucie-Aimée Kaffee Working Student Software Development Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin Phone: +49 (0)30 219 158 26-0http://wikimedia.de Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. That‘s our commitment. Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207.

The paper focuses, yet again on Visual Editor. And while I understand that many editors prefer this, any implementation must service both the Visual Editor users as well as the Wiki Markup users. Again, major concerns. I guess unless I have more off-Wiki conversations about this topic, I will move my concerns to the proposal page. I believe in Wikidata and want to encourage usage -- and am trying to use it more -- but unless you are running queries it's quite frankly a flipping nightmare. I love the idea. Usability, not so much. And I know it is improved and there are many smart people I admire involved in this project. But the lack of buy-in by Wikipedia editors is happening for a reason. Best, - Erika *Erika Herzog* Wikipedia *User:BrillLyle <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BrillLyle>* On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 8:00 AM, Brill Lyle &lt;wp.brilllyle(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

Agree. I will take it to the discussion page. Wanted to get more feedback and guidance here but this seems to be an ongoing issue that is probably not resolvable, at least not now. - Erika *Erika Herzog* Wikipedia *User:BrillLyle <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BrillLyle>* On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 10:41 AM, Lydia Pintscher < lydia.pintscher(a)wikimedia.de&gt; wrote:

I am basing my concerns on my own experience editing Wikidata as well as two separate workshops where Wikimedia NYC Wikipedia editors were taught and edited Wikidata and discussed end-user challenges both times. I disagree that Wikidata is easier to edit than Wiki Markup or Visual Editor. The null responses when trying to save, those alone, if you are not using the controlled expected vocabularies presents huge barriers to editing. Frankly, manual editing takes forever. Sorry totally disagree. Deep links is well and good but how about user documentation and making it a seamless experience for Wikipedia editors -- not just for Wikidata editors? I think you are missing the point of my concerns here. And to make such a significant change and implement it with no regard for Wikipedia editors, the whole thing seems very non-ideal and problematic. And biased towards Wikidata. There seems to be a lack of focus on the casual Wikipedia editor and their needs. The focus is on Wikidata, which is fine if you are doing Wikidata editing or running queries, I guess. But for this to be interoperable between Wikipedia and Wikidata, the usability for an end-user is an issue. And more importantly a barrier. Speaking of: Where's the user documentation for Authority Control? Have you tried to update and/or add Authority Control on Wikidata manually? It is clunky and difficult and you need to know Wikidata to do it. I keep whinging and moaning enough about it maybe I'll try to do a rapid grant to fund a project so I can carve out time to create something finally. For the Infobox template it's even more elements, and it's unclear to me how an Infobox populates on Wikidata. And are all Infobox templates on Wikipedia considered here? Are all elements going to translate, exhaustively? I had the same concern with the RefToolbar Cite templates, which was part of the bibliographic metadata focus at WikiCite 2016 recently. What is the point of Wikipedia editors using these great templates in Wikipedia when there is no effort by Wikidata to create pathways and integrate existing Wikipedia templates into the semantics of Wikidata? I find this maddening. And a big problem. - Erika *Erika Herzog* Wikipedia *User:BrillLyle <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BrillLyle>* On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 12:15 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) &lt;nemowiki(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

I think you are misunderstanding. I am not saying editing Wiki Markup on Wikidata. Is that what you are describing? I am talking about editing Wiki Markup on Wikipedia. I am expecting this interface to be editable on Wikipedia, not having it force Wikipedia editors to edit infoboxes on Wikipedia only in Wikidata. *Erika Herzog* Wikipedia *User:BrillLyle <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BrillLyle>* On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 1:06 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) &lt;nemowiki(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

Mh. Is this actually leading anywhere? I can see both views, but there is a danger that things are getting non-constructive here. A particular issue in my view is playing the "Wikipedia-vs-Wikidata" card. I don't see things in this way, and I hope most Wikipedia and Wikidata editors don't either. Of course there are different interfaces and different pitfalls for each system. Let's face it: both are far from perfect when it comes to UI. People use them because they are extremely important projects, in spite -- not because -- of the UIs. I have also read about missing documentation on how to do things. Again, I don't think either project really shines here. There often is documentation if you know where to look, but if you just come by the page and want to work, it is very difficult to find it. Things could be much better. Therefore, any approach that looks only at current editors (who already have made a lot of effort to wrap their heads around one of the not-always-intuitive processes and interfaces) is necessarily too limited. Their tolerance to the "other" UI will be as low as anybody's (ask someone on the street how nice they find either template editing or Wikidata input forms -- you'll get similar views). At the same time, current users often have a kind of Stockholm syndrome towards the UI they are used to. We have to take their views very serious, but we must not build our sites only for the people who already use them now. The question therefore is not at all which of the current UIs is better, but rather how both can be improved. For this list, this mainly leads to the question how Wikidata can be improved. The practical insights gathered with different editor groups around the world are useful here. The findings need to be split into small, actionable units and prioritized. Then they will be fixed. For this to work, it is completely irrelevant if more people like one UI or more people like the other. Since the UIs are doing completely different things, we won't be able to replace one by the other anyway. All we can do is to improve on our side. For this reason, any "vs"-themed discussion can only be harmful, attracting trolls who love to chime in whenever there is critique, and frustrate contributors who would rather like to get things done than to argue. As for the (little) project that started this discussion, I think it should not be overrated in its scope. If people don't find the current UI usable enough, they will not switch to use it until we have our processes improved. But having other pieces of the puzzle in place will increase the pressure on Wikidata to fix remaining pain points, and possibly do exactly what Erika is asking for: make the voice of current Wikipedia editors (even) more relevant to ongoing Wikidata development. Peace, Markus On 03.08.2016 19:24, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:

Because this proposal involves depreciating the infobox to Wikipedia -- my biggest concern -- I changed my endorsement to Weak Support but under no circumstances implement on English Wikipedia. I think it would be a very bad approach. The Danish examples seemed more ideal, which was why I changed to Support. I also really don't like this sequential list of elements. The faceted element=value relationship is gone, and adding Wikidata numbers to Wikipedia is very backwards. Again, I would like this proposal to involve creating a form (in Wiki Markup) that is filled in like with the Cite RefToolbar -- see https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:RefToolbar-URL-autofill.png -- minus the lookups.... I am not seeing a value add to this proposal's implementation. The barriers to entry for editors is very high. - Erika

I think its important to make a distinction between what is easiest and what people are used to. Perhaps thinking about what new users would find easiest might be helpful. Here is an example of a well developed infobox on English Wikipedia, I think that the knowledge needed to edit this is an unreasonable barrier for casual, new or even fairly experienced if less technical editors like myself. {{about|the country|its largest island|Great Britain|other uses|United Kingdom (disambiguation)|and|UK (disambiguation)}} {{pp-semi-indef}} {{pp-move-indef}} {{Use British English|date=April 2012}} {{Use dmy dates|date=July 2016}} {{Infobox country | name = {{collapsible list |titlestyle=background:transparent;font-size:9pt; |title={{resize|11.5pt|{{nowrap|United Kingdom of Great}} {{nowrap|Britain and Northern Ireland}}}} |{{Infobox |subbox=yes |bodystyle=font-size:9pt;font-weight:normal; |rowclass1=mergedrow |label1=[[Cornish language|Cornish]]: |data1={{lang|kw|Rywvaneth Unys Breten Veur ha Kledhbarth Iwerdhon}} |rowclass2 =mergedrow |label2=[[Irish language|Irish]]: |data2={{lang|ga|Ríocht Aontaithe na Breataine Móire agus Thuaisceart Éireann}} |rowclass3=mergedrow |label3=[[Scots language|Scots]]: |data3={{lang|sco|Unitit Kinrick o Great Breetain an Northren Ireland}} |rowclass4=mergedrow |label4=[[Ulster Scots dialects|Ulster Scots]]:|data4={{lang|sco-UKN|Claught Kängrick o Docht Brätain an Norlin Airlann}} |rowclass5=mergedrow |label5=[[Scottish&nbsp;Gaelic]]: |data5={{lang|gd|Rìoghachd Aonaichte Bhreatainn is Èireann a Tuath}} |rowclass6=mergedrow |label6=[[Welsh language|Welsh]]: |data6={{lang|cy|Teyrnas Unedig Prydain Fawr a Gogledd Iwerddon}} }} }} | common_name = United Kingdom | linking_name = the United Kingdom <!--Note: "the" required here as this entry used to create wikilinks--> | image_flag = Flag of the United Kingdom.svg | alt_flag = A flag featuring both cross and saltire in red, white and blue | image_coat = Royal Coat of Arms of the United Kingdom.svg | alt_coat = Coat of arms containing shield and crown in centre, flanked by lion and unicorn | symbol_type = {{nowrap|[[Royal coat of arms of the United Kingdom|Royal coat of arms]]{{#tag:ref |An alternative variant of the Royal coat of arms is used in Scotland: [[:File:Royal Coat of Arms of the United Kingdom (Scotland).svg|[click to view image]]].|group="nb"}}<!--(end nowrap:)-->}} | symbol_width = 90px | national_anthem = {{nowrap|1="[[God Save the Queen]]"{{#tag:ref |There is no authorised version of the national anthem as the words are a matter of tradition; only the first verse is usually sung.<ref>{{cite web|title=National Anthem|url= https://www.royal.uk/national-anthem|website=Official web site of the British Royal Family|accessdate=4 June 2016}}</ref> No law was passed making "God Save the Queen" the official anthem. In the English tradition, such laws are not necessary; proclamation and usage are sufficient to make it the national anthem. "God Save the Queen" also serves as the [[Honors music|Royal anthem]] for certain [[Commonwealth realms]]. |group="nb"}} <div style="padding-top:0.4em;">[[File:United States Navy Band - God Save the Queen.ogg|center]]</div><!--(end nowrap:)-->}} | image_map = EU-United Kingdom.svg | alt_map = Two islands to the north-west of continental Europe. Highlighted are the larger island and the north-eastern fifth of the smaller island to the west. | map_caption = {{map_caption |countryprefix=the |country={{nobold|United&nbsp;Kingdom}} |location_color=dark green |region=Europe |region_color=dark grey |subregion=the [[European&nbsp;Union]] |subregion_color=green}} | languages_type = Official language<br />{{nobold|and national language}} | languages = [[English language|English]]<!---NOTE: Just English, don't add "British English"---> | languages2_type = Recognised regional<br />languages{{#tag:ref |Under the [[Council of Europe]]'s [[European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages]], Scots, Ulster Scots, Welsh, Cornish, Scottish Gaelic and Irish are officially recognised as [[Regional language|regional]] or [[Minority language|minority]] languages by the [[Government of the United Kingdom|British government]] for the purposes of the Charter.<ref name="reglang">{{cite web |url= http://conventions.coe.int/treaty/Commun/ListeDeclarations.asp?CL=ENG&N… |title=List of declarations made with respect to treaty No. 148 |publisher=[[Council of Europe]] |accessdate=12 December 2013}}</ref> See also [[Languages of the United Kingdom]]. |group="nb"<!--(end #tag:)-->}} | languages2 = {{hlist|list_style=line-height:1.3em;|item_style=white-space; |[[Scots language|Scots]]|[[Ulster Scots dialects|Ulster&nbsp;Scots]]|[[Welsh language|Welsh]]|[[Cornish language|Cornish]]|[[Scottish&nbsp;Gaelic]]<!--Keep "Scottish Gaelic"; people will find "Gaelic" confusing, as the Irish language is also commonly called "Gaelic"-->|[[Irish language|Irish]]}} | ethnic_groups = {{ublist|list_style=line-height:1.3em; |class=nowrap |87.1% [[White people|White]] |7.0% [[British Asian|Asian]] |3.0% [[Black British|Black]] |2.0% [[Mixed (United Kingdom ethnicity category)|Mixed]] |0.9% others}} | ethnic_groups_year = [[United Kingdom Census 2011|2011]] | demonym = {{hlist|[[British people|British]] | Briton}} | capital = [[London]] | latd=51 |latm=30 |latNS=N |longd=0 |longm=7 |longEW=W | largest_city = capital | government_type = [[Unitary state|Unitary]] [[Parliamentary system|parliamentary]] [[constitutional monarchy]] | leader_title1 = [[Monarchy of the United Kingdom|Monarch]] | leader_name1 = {{nowrap|[[Elizabeth II]]}} | leader_title2 = [[Prime Minister of the United Kingdom|Prime Minister]] | leader_name2 = [[Theresa May]] | legislature = [[Parliament of the United Kingdom|Parliament]] | upper_house = {{nowrap|[[House of Lords]]}} | lower_house = {{nowrap|[[House of Commons of the United Kingdom|House of Commons]]}} | sovereignty_type = [[History of the formation of the United Kingdom|Formation]] | established_event1 = [[Laws in Wales Acts 1535 and 1542|Laws in Wales Acts]] | established_date1 = {{nowrap|1535 and 1542}} | established_event2 = [[Union of the Crowns]] under [[James VI and I|James, King of Scots]] | established_date2 = {{nowrap|24 March 1603}} | established_event3 = [[Acts of Union of England and Scotland]] | established_date3 = {{nowrap|1 May 1707}} | established_event4 = [[Acts of Union of Great Britain and Ireland]] | established_date4 = {{nowrap|1 January 1801}} | established_event5 = [[Irish Free State Constitution Act 1922|Irish Free State Constitution Act]] | established_date5 = {{nowrap|5 December 1922}} | EUseats = 78 | area_rank = 78th | area_magnitude = 1 E11 | area_km2 = 242495 | area_sq_mi = 93628 | area_footnote = <ref>{{Cite journal|url= http://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/products/dyb/dyb2012/Table03.pdf|for… Yearbook – Table 3: Population by sex, rate of population increase, surface area and density|publisher=United Nations Statistics Division|year=2012|accessdate=9 August 2015}}</ref> | percent_water = 1.34 | population_estimate_rank = 22nd | population_estimate = 65,110,000<ref>{{cite web|url= https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/… estimates - Office for National Statistics U.K.|work=www.ons.gov.uk}}</ref> | population_census = 63,181,775<ref name="pop_census">{{cite web |url= http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/guide-method/census/2011/uk-census/index.html |title=2011 UK censuses |publisher=Office for National Statistics |accessdate=17 December 2012}}</ref> | population_estimate_year = 2016 | population_census_year = 2011 | population_census_rank = 22nd | population_density_km2 = 255.6 | population_density_sq_mi = 661.9 | population_density_rank = 51st | GDP_PPP_year = 2015 | GDP_PPP = {{nowrap|$2.679 trillion}} | GDP_PPP_rank = 9th | GDP_PPP_per_capita = $41,159<ref name=IMF>{{cite web|url= http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2016/01/weodata/weorept.aspx?sy=201… for Selected Countries and Subjects|work=World Economic Outlook Database|date=April 2016|publisher=International Monetary Fund|accessdate=15 April 2016}}</ref> | GDP_PPP_per_capita_rank = 25th | GDP_nominal_year = 2015 | GDP_nominal_rank= 5th | GDP_nominal_per_capita = $43,771<ref name="IMF"/> | GDP_nominal_per_capita_rank = 13th | GDP_nominal = {{nowrap|$2.849 trillion}}<!--NOTE: Do no update with 2016 "IMF staff estimates", wait until actual data is published--> | Gini_year = 2014 | Gini_change = decrease | Gini = 31.6 | Gini_ref =<ref name="eurogini">{{cite web |title=Gini coefficient of equivalised disposable income (source: SILC) |url= http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?dataset=ilc_di12 |publisher=Eurostat Data Explorer |accessdate=11 November 2015}}</ref> | Gini_rank = 33rd | HDI_year = 2014 <!-- Please use the year to which the data refers, not the publication year--> | HDI_change = increase <!-- increase / decrease / steady --> | HDI = 0.907 <!--number only, between 0 and 1--> | HDI_ref =<ref name="HDI">{{cite web |url= http://hdr.undp.org/sites/default/files/hdr_2015_statistical_annex.pdf |title=2015 Human Development Report |date=14 December 2015 |accessdate=14 December 2015 }}</ref> | HDI_rank = 14th | currency = [[Pound&nbsp;sterling]]<ref group="nb">Some of the devolved countries, Crown dependencies and British Overseas Territories issue their own sterling banknotes or currencies, or use another nation's currency. See [[List of British currencies]] for more information</ref> | currency_code = GBP{{))!}}; {{!((}}Pound sign{{!}}£ | time_zone = [[Greenwich Mean Time|GMT]]<ref group="nb">This excludes some of the UK's dependencies. See [[Time in the United Kingdom#British territories]]</ref> | utc_offset = &#8203;<!--NOTE: Please do not remove. This is a blank character entity so that the infobox displays "UTC" without a specified offset.--> | time_zone_DST = [[British Summer Time|BST]] | utc_offset_DST = +1 | date_format = dd/mm/yyyy&nbsp;([[Anno Domini|AD]]) | drives_on = left | calling_code = [[Telephone numbers in the United Kingdom|+44]]<ref group="nb">[[Telephone numbers in the United Kingdom#Telephone numbers in Overseas Territories|Excludes most overseas territories]]</ref> | cctld = [[.uk]]<ref group="nb">The [[.eu]] domain is also used, as it is shared with other European Union member states. [[Template:UK top-level domains|Other TLDs are used regionally]]</ref> <!--| national_motto = | religion = | footnotes = --> }} On 4 August 2016 at 17:48, Scott MacLeod &lt;worlduniversityandschool(a)gmail.com > If an easy-to-use Citation Reference Toolbar form emerges as you'd like in > a Wikipedia infobox proposal, Erika (and Wikidatans), I wonder, and am > asking how, in general, it could code for all 358 languages in > Wikipedia/Wikidata with translation (and anticipate all 8k languages with > unicode eventually)? Also how could folks write apps on this to create > referencing programs for a academic papers (e.g. in the Chicago Manual of > Style style, or the American Chemical Engineering citation style - or in > similar styles in Japanese or Swedish? - there are possibly 10s of > thousands of these citation styles in many languages in many academic > disciplines). > > Dario shared this 2 days ago - http://allourideas.org/wikidata/results - > and it's good to see that a "Wizard-style dialog for entering references" > in 9 out of 10 on a list of "What's the one thing you wish Wikidata had or > would do but doesn't yet?" > > ... all in a little info box bridge between wiki and wikidata ... 'tis a > lot to ask of a little info box :) > > Thanks, > Scott > > > On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 6:44 PM, Brill Lyle &lt;wp.brilllyle(a)gmail.com> >> Because this proposal involves depreciating the infobox to Wikipedia -- >> my biggest concern -- I changed my endorsement to Weak Support but under no >> circumstances implement on English Wikipedia. I think it would be a very >> bad approach. >> >> The Danish examples seemed more ideal, which was why I changed to Support. >> >> I also really don't like this sequential list of elements. The faceted >> element=value relationship is gone, and adding Wikidata numbers to >> Wikipedia is very backwards. >> >> Again, I would like this proposal to involve creating a form (in Wiki >> Markup) that is filled in like with the Cite RefToolbar -- see >> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:RefToolbar-URL-autofill.png -- >> minus the lookups.... >> >> I am not seeing a value add to this proposal's implementation. The >> barriers to entry for editors is very high. >> >> - Erika >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikidata mailing list >> Wikidata(a)lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata >> >> > > > -- > > - Scott MacLeod - Founder & President > - Please donate to tax-exempt 501 (c) (3) > - World University and School > - via PayPal, or credit card, here - > - http://worlduniversityandschool.org > - or send checks to > - 415 480 4577 > - PO Box 442, (86 Ridgecrest Road), Canyon, CA 94516 > - World University and School - like Wikipedia with best STEM-centric > OpenCourseWare - incorporated as a nonprofit university and school in > California, and is a U.S. 501 (c) (3) tax-exempt educational organization. > > World University and School is sending you this because of your interest > in free, online, higher education. If you don't want to receive these, > please reply with 'unsubscribe' in the body of the email, leaving the > subject line intact. Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > Wikidata mailing list > Wikidata(a)lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata > >

Thanks, John, Erika, and Wikidatans, As an experiment with Android voice on my smartphone, I just said to the rectangular object in my hand: "Please add the languages of the United Kingdom Wikipedia page to the info box for the United Kingdom Wikipedia page" and at the top of the list on my smartphone arose this link - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_United_Kingdom - which is cool, but no further digital actions occurred after this. I'm excited for the time when Wikipedia info boxes will do this with both voice and brain wave headsets, and wonder when this might occur (per this Stanford Engineering Tweet of Jeff Dean - https://twitter.com/StanfordEng/status/760571959402909697 - which I posted here - https://twitter.com/WorldUnivAndSch - also on August 2nd). Thank you. Scott http://scott-macleod.blogspot.com/2016/08/rafetus-yangtze-giant-euphrates.h… On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Brill Lyle &lt;wp.brilllyle(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: -- - Scott MacLeod - Founder & President - Please donate to tax-exempt 501 (c) (3) - World University and School - via PayPal, or credit card, here - - http://worlduniversityandschool.org - or send checks to - 415 480 4577 - PO Box 442, (86 Ridgecrest Road), Canyon, CA 94516 - World University and School - like Wikipedia with best STEM-centric OpenCourseWare - incorporated as a nonprofit university and school in California, and is a U.S. 501 (c) (3) tax-exempt educational organization. World University and School is sending you this because of your interest in free, online, higher education. If you don't want to receive these, please reply with 'unsubscribe' in the body of the email, leaving the subject line intact. Thank you.

I just endorsed this proposal (and CC World University and School did too) - https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Project/Putnik/Wikidata_module. Thank you, Scott CC https://twitter.com/WorldUnivAndSch On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 2:48 PM, Info WorldUniversity < info(a)worlduniversityandschool.org&gt; wrote: -- - Scott MacLeod - Founder & President - http://worlduniversityandschool.org - 415 480 4577 - PO Box 442, (86 Ridgecrest Road), Canyon, CA 94516 - World University and School - like Wikipedia with best STEM-centric OpenCourseWare - incorporated as a nonprofit university and school in California, and is a U.S. 501 (c) (3) tax-exempt educational organization. World University and School is sending you this because of your interest in free, online, higher education. If you don't want to receive these, please reply with 'unsubscribe' in the body of the email, leaving the subject line intact. Thank you.