Re: [Gendergap] [Wikitech-l] [EE] IRC web client for Wikipedia help - Gendergap

Emily Monroe

12 Aug 12 Aug

4:43 p.m.

New subject: [Wikitech-l] [EE] IRC web client for Wikipedia help

I often help out at en-help. Often, people who are new at IRC need to be told where to type. I would think this would qualify as "failing hard". From, Emily On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 6:45 AM, Pine W <wiki.pine(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

That proposal could be considered in the long term, but right now we have plenty of people who seek and get help on IRC, and we can make incremental improvements to their experience faster than we can build a new tool from scratch. Few newbies fail hard at IRC. The basics are similar to texting and private instant messaging software. Let's improve the newbie user experience. Pine On Aug 11, 2014 1:48 PM, "Nathan" <nawrich(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Newbies are going to fail hard at IRC. Pretty much all of the questions Seb poses for a built-in newbie chat still exist with a built-in Freenode interface, with the addition of a complicated and often difficult (not to mention culturally... unique) environment. Much better to think along the lines of the Teahouse, but live. You can jump into a chat queue, and people who want to help chat with you, and you can close the chat whenever you want, and you can't contact people outside of the queue using chat. _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Pine W

7:19 p.m.

New subject: [Wikitech-l] [EE] IRC web client for Wikipedia help

Sarah, the cynicism in your comment is depressing and unnecessary. I don't think I can convince you of the value of incremental change so I'm not going to try. Pine On Aug 12, 2014 7:49 AM, "Sarah Stierch" <sarah.stierch(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

pine when you say "plenty' of people what does that constitute? Does anyone actually track how many needy people come into IRC - let alone those who can't pass the threshold of typing into the chat box? Data is a way to convince people of the need or demand and to spend time investing in IRC. One reason why the Teahouse is so success is because people do not have to leave the wiki to find help. That's one no no in business... I noticed that WMF staff are less interactive on this mailing list these days, for months actually. So who knows if anyone with "influence" is paying attention to this. Sarah On Aug 12, 2014 7:44 AM, "Emily Monroe" <emilymonroe03(a)gmail.com> wrote:

I often help out at en-help. Often, people who are new at IRC need to be told where to type. I would think this would qualify as "failing hard". From, Emily On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 6:45 AM, Pine W <wiki.pine(a)gmail.com> wrote:

That proposal could be considered in the long term, but right now we have plenty of people who seek and get help on IRC, and we can make incremental improvements to their experience faster than we can build a new tool from scratch. Few newbies fail hard at IRC. The basics are similar to texting and private instant messaging software. Let's improve the newbie user experience. Pine On Aug 11, 2014 1:48 PM, "Nathan" <nawrich(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Newbies are going to fail hard at IRC. Pretty much all of the questions Seb poses for a built-in newbie chat still exist with a built-in Freenode interface, with the addition of a complicated and often difficult (not to mention culturally... unique) environment. Much better to think along the lines of the Teahouse, but live. You can jump into a chat queue, and people who want to help chat with you, and you can close the chat whenever you want, and you can't contact people outside of the queue using chat. _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Carol Moore dc

8:56 p.m.

New subject: Sh*tstarting...] IRC web client for Wikipedia help

On 8/12/2014 1:39 PM, Sarah Stierch wrote:

...

Cynicism can be a powerful tool. And you aren't the first person to tell a shitstarter like me that ;-)

OK, in that vein, first, are we talking about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Help/clickthrough I hate chatting myself so already have a bad attitude. I guess those with a similar attitude will avoid that option. Experienced people may be able to figure out how it works and if they have a regular IRC account or they're using the wikipedia account to get in there. But I'm sure a lot of people will be confused. But my "Shitstarter" comments are: *If women are having harassment and other issues are they at least being made aware of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bia… (or if more relevant https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Gender_gap) and even sent there for help, even before ANI. Obviously, not, because right now males are still disrupting it. Just as they are disrupting editing at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_bias_on_Wikipedia A lot of women did show up and were quite outspoken at the Jimmy Wales talk page, but we can't just rely on him to solve our problems. At both the "Gender Gap Task force" and "Gender bias on Wikipedia" article they've been picking on the more outspoken and active women, casting aspersions based on little or nothing but their own prejudice. If women are watching, they are saying little or nothing. And several editors have joined, evidently taken a quick look at the talk page, and unjoined. I personally don't want to make this my main project and wouldn't be able to anyway because a couple of these guys already have harassed me so much I lost my temper leading to a topic ban in another area. And those two and some new ones with strong men's rights POVs (if not editing histories) are trying to do it again. So I can't predict how long I'll last. But the whole bloody mess is all there in Gender Gap Task Force history, so expect the New York Times article "How (pick your adjective) males destroyed the Wikipedia Gender Gap Task Force" if more women don't "women up" and get involved. I keep hoping that those of us who are active are not seen as too "assertive" and too scary by other women. Frustrated... CM

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Emily Monroe

3:53 a.m.

New subject: [Wikitech-l] [EE] IRC web client for Wikipedia help

On top of that, it seems that you, Pine, are very enthusiastic about directing people to #wikipedia-en-help, therefore increasing the burden on helpers, but you are often not a helper yourself. From, Emily On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Sarah Stierch <sarah.stierch(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Cynicism can be a powerful tool. And you aren't the first person to tell a shitstarter like me that ;-) But seriously - its challenging for all of us when I feel like our concerns aren't being considered. So take that as you will. We don't get emails from UX folks on this list anymore....I wish we did. I feel like WMF employees dropped off this list as contributors as staff (not volunteers like Kaldari and Swalling - they seem to write here more as volunteers than staff) after I lost my job and Sue left. I always feel like people forget there are a lot of changemakers and passionate people on this list. We had to prove the need for the Teahouse with data. The community did not want us to Implement it without proof of need and data on how this type of project was able to change things. I do this daily with my job in grant writing and evaluation - I have to show proof that someone needs to spend money on whatever my nonprofit clients want. So it's not cynicism in that regard - if we want to show "the community" and WMF that there is a problem and a change needs to occur and we have the data perhaps people will invest time and money in IRC and other things. We need to prove that there is a demand for IRC help and that newbies are failing to get oriented with it. I know there are problems with it...but knowing is not proving. Proof is in the pudding and we need some tasty pudding to get people to pay attention :) Sarah I On Aug 12, 2014 10:19 AM, "Pine W" <wiki.pine(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Sarah, the cynicism in your comment is depressing and unnecessary. I don't think I can convince you of the value of incremental change so I'm not going to try. Pine On Aug 12, 2014 7:49 AM, "Sarah Stierch" <sarah.stierch(a)gmail.com> wrote:

pine when you say "plenty' of people what does that constitute? Does anyone actually track how many needy people come into IRC - let alone those who can't pass the threshold of typing into the chat box? Data is a way to convince people of the need or demand and to spend time investing in IRC. One reason why the Teahouse is so success is because people do not have to leave the wiki to find help. That's one no no in business... I noticed that WMF staff are less interactive on this mailing list these days, for months actually. So who knows if anyone with "influence" is paying attention to this. Sarah On Aug 12, 2014 7:44 AM, "Emily Monroe" <emilymonroe03(a)gmail.com> wrote:

I often help out at en-help. Often, people who are new at IRC need to be told where to type. I would think this would qualify as "failing hard". From, Emily On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 6:45 AM, Pine W <wiki.pine(a)gmail.com> wrote: > That proposal could be considered in the long term, but right now we > have plenty of people who seek and get help on IRC, and we can make > incremental improvements to their experience faster than we can build a new > tool from scratch. Few newbies fail hard at IRC. The basics are similar to > texting and private instant messaging software. Let's improve the newbie > user experience. > > Pine > On Aug 11, 2014 1:48 PM, "Nathan" <nawrich(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Newbies are going to fail hard at IRC. Pretty much all of the >> questions Seb >> poses for a built-in newbie chat still exist with a built-in Freenode >> interface, with the addition of a complicated and often difficult >> (not to >> mention culturally... unique) environment. Much better to think along >> the >> lines of the Teahouse, but live. You can jump into a chat queue, and >> people >> who want to help chat with you, and you can close the chat whenever >> you >> want, and you can't contact people outside of the queue using chat. >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikitech-l mailing list >> Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l > > > _______________________________________________ > Gendergap mailing list > Gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap > > _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

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Pine W

4:39 a.m.

New subject: [Wikitech-l] [EE] IRC web client for Wikipedia help

It's a tool in the toolbox that works, not optimally, but good enough. I do help there sometimes, though you may have noticed I do many other activities supporting Wikimedia as well. I am not proposing to recruit more newbies to IRC than we already get; I want to improve the quality of their experience. Pine On Aug 12, 2014 6:54 PM, "Emily Monroe" <emilymonroe03(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On top of that, it seems that you, Pine, are very enthusiastic about directing people to #wikipedia-en-help, therefore increasing the burden on helpers, but you are often not a helper yourself. From, Emily On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Sarah Stierch <sarah.stierch(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Cynicism can be a powerful tool. And you aren't the first person to tell a shitstarter like me that ;-) But seriously - its challenging for all of us when I feel like our concerns aren't being considered. So take that as you will. We don't get emails from UX folks on this list anymore....I wish we did. I feel like WMF employees dropped off this list as contributors as staff (not volunteers like Kaldari and Swalling - they seem to write here more as volunteers than staff) after I lost my job and Sue left. I always feel like people forget there are a lot of changemakers and passionate people on this list. We had to prove the need for the Teahouse with data. The community did not want us to Implement it without proof of need and data on how this type of project was able to change things. I do this daily with my job in grant writing and evaluation - I have to show proof that someone needs to spend money on whatever my nonprofit clients want. So it's not cynicism in that regard - if we want to show "the community" and WMF that there is a problem and a change needs to occur and we have the data perhaps people will invest time and money in IRC and other things. We need to prove that there is a demand for IRC help and that newbies are failing to get oriented with it. I know there are problems with it...but knowing is not proving. Proof is in the pudding and we need some tasty pudding to get people to pay attention :) Sarah I On Aug 12, 2014 10:19 AM, "Pine W" <wiki.pine(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Sarah, the cynicism in your comment is depressing and unnecessary. I don't think I can convince you of the value of incremental change so I'm not going to try. Pine On Aug 12, 2014 7:49 AM, "Sarah Stierch" <sarah.stierch(a)gmail.com> wrote:

pine when you say "plenty' of people what does that constitute? Does anyone actually track how many needy people come into IRC - let alone those who can't pass the threshold of typing into the chat box? Data is a way to convince people of the need or demand and to spend time investing in IRC. One reason why the Teahouse is so success is because people do not have to leave the wiki to find help. That's one no no in business... I noticed that WMF staff are less interactive on this mailing list these days, for months actually. So who knows if anyone with "influence" is paying attention to this. Sarah On Aug 12, 2014 7:44 AM, "Emily Monroe" <emilymonroe03(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I often help out at en-help. Often, people who are new at IRC need to > be told where to type. I would think this would qualify as "failing hard". > > From, > Emily > > > On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 6:45 AM, Pine W <wiki.pine(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> That proposal could be considered in the long term, but right now we >> have plenty of people who seek and get help on IRC, and we can make >> incremental improvements to their experience faster than we can build a new >> tool from scratch. Few newbies fail hard at IRC. The basics are similar to >> texting and private instant messaging software. Let's improve the newbie >> user experience. >> >> Pine >> On Aug 11, 2014 1:48 PM, "Nathan" <nawrich(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Newbies are going to fail hard at IRC. Pretty much all of the >>> questions Seb >>> poses for a built-in newbie chat still exist with a built-in Freenode >>> interface, with the addition of a complicated and often difficult >>> (not to >>> mention culturally... unique) environment. Much better to think >>> along the >>> lines of the Teahouse, but live. You can jump into a chat queue, and >>> people >>> who want to help chat with you, and you can close the chat whenever >>> you >>> want, and you can't contact people outside of the queue using chat. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikitech-l mailing list >>> Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Gendergap mailing list >> Gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Gendergap mailing list > Gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap > > _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

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Pine W

12 Aug 12 Aug

7:11 p.m.

New subject: [Wikitech-l] [EE] IRC web client for Wikipedia help

I have seen that happen too, and perhaps someone should modify the IRC client to say in large letters "type here." This is technically possible. Pine On Aug 12, 2014 7:44 AM, "Emily Monroe" <emilymonroe03(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

I often help out at en-help. Often, people who are new at IRC need to be told where to type. I would think this would qualify as "failing hard". From, Emily On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 6:45 AM, Pine W <wiki.pine(a)gmail.com> wrote:

That proposal could be considered in the long term, but right now we have plenty of people who seek and get help on IRC, and we can make incremental improvements to their experience faster than we can build a new tool from scratch. Few newbies fail hard at IRC. The basics are similar to texting and private instant messaging software. Let's improve the newbie user experience. Pine On Aug 11, 2014 1:48 PM, "Nathan" <nawrich(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Newbies are going to fail hard at IRC. Pretty much all of the questions Seb poses for a built-in newbie chat still exist with a built-in Freenode interface, with the addition of a complicated and often difficult (not to mention culturally... unique) environment. Much better to think along the lines of the Teahouse, but live. You can jump into a chat queue, and people who want to help chat with you, and you can close the chat whenever you want, and you can't contact people outside of the queue using chat. _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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